Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Little Bo-Fi (with Robert Partridge/Peter Grainger)

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

The good ship Fi and Eve is sailing into your ears today whilst Jane is away. They cover twin towns, looks of reverie, animal bylaws, sausage cooking techniques, X-rated plums, and push their football knowledge to its absolute limit. Plus, Peter Grainger, bestselling novelist and retired teacher, who landed his first publishing deal at 72, reflects on finding success later in life and discusses his new book 'Some Sort of Justice'. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/ Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Are we recording? We are. Excellent. So it is. It's the SS Even Fee. And we are setting sail for a very short journey today. We're just doing today because Jane is attending a funeral. And we really hope that that does what decent funerals should do, which is give everybody a chance to celebrate a life as well as contemplating the loss. So it's just you and me, babes. What type of a ship do you think we are? A large... This has gone wrong already. What? It's very rude. I'm thinking regal. Regal? I'm thinking a lovely kind of mahogany.

Really? Yeah. Big sales. Coming down the Thames. Maybe people in their offices are going to the windows to see it. Really? Because they're saying, oh my God, have you seen that shit? Have you seen the evening be?

It's causing some ripples in the Thames. Okay, that's great. That's asking quite a lot of us, isn't it? We're not causing ripples. I mean, to be honest, I think it's been quite a lot. week it's Thursday at just a small tugboat and I had a good time at the football last did you okay how good a time did you have well it's just ridiculous isn't it you'd have you'd have you'd have thought that we'd won the world cup last night you'd have thought we'd won the tournament

but we we I think it is that that strange itchy place of expectation and reality for once was a beautiful place yes yes it was it was a very very fun evening we'll take the wins where we can and the celebrations where we can because they may not be there at the end of the tournament totally. I'm absolutely in agreement with you. And do you know what? I do think that that match did everything

that a football match should do. So when it started you're a bit like oh God, it's scrappy and horrible and actually is it quite dull. It's not really going anywhere and then suddenly it just went woofed in it and then it was all the goals, unbelievable timing of them,

just superb. It was actually very entertaining. And I don't find myself in that environment very often. A football-y environment. So it takes me a minute to adjust to the like uproar when there's a goal and the shouting and I kind of flinch. And then once you get into it and you kind of accept your fate, it can be really fun.

And you can just display all of your emotions, can't you? And no one's actually looking at you. You can just shout into the abyss and let it all out. Well, I couldn't get my head around actually was it was the Dallas Cowboys Stadium that they were in the dome. And somebody said at the beginning they were talking about the hydration brakes and all that kind of stuff

and we're saying that the whole thing is air-conditioned. How do you air-condition a stadium that size? Yeah, so it's got a roof on it, doesn't it? Yeah, but I mean, I can't air-condition my bedroom and it's not that big. No, I know we could learn a thing or two really, there's a heat wave coming. And these hydration break,

this really is the blind leading the blind hair. These hydration breaks are apparently meaning that the game is losing a lot of momentum so people aren't very happy about that and then why do they need them if the whole stadium is air-conditioned anyway advertising? Yes. Yeah, that's what it is.

Because the idea that every game has to be the same so you have to have a hydration break if you're in Canada because actually if somebody's playing in Mexico the difference between them is 10 Celsius that's just rubbish. That's just absolute rubbish. What even is a hydration? Are they having orange slices? If only they were

wouldn't that be lovely to see? Cups of warm squash. I don't think that orange segments are allowed anymore at lots of sporting things. Because of hygiene. Well, I say this as a parent who stood on the touchlines

and I think that sometimes there are these really weird rules that come into play. I don't think it was just the particular leagues that might have played in or the gymnastics or whatever. I think actually the health and safety thing maybe as...

Was this pre-COVID as well? Yeah, the orange segments. Which is a shame because apart from anything else, it was the most wonderful way to get somebody who wasn't particularly good at sport and maybe was going to be on the bench for a while or not going to make it through the knockout or whatever it was to be participating in the team thing

when they had to, you know, tiny little people carry out these huge trays of oranges and then they all felt part of it. They were quite endearing. Right, we've done more sport in that. section of the podcast than we have in the last four years even i congratulate you for that i think you did absolutely brilliantly well done you thank you for it was a struggle we got that at ease just just uh what level do you think your hangover is at or is it more of a tired over um it's a bit of a tired over i've had

two ibuprofen and an ice coffee so i'm going to say i'll say five okay but i did have some very very very cheap very cheap very cheap very cheap very cheap not very very cheap that it needed lots of ice. Okay. So, yes. Right. Well, you look quite good on it. That's the annoying thing about you. Spray some Fianne on it, came in from Alexis. This is just so fantastic.

And honestly, this, for me personally is a mic drop moment. I can die happy knowing that this has happened. I too succumb to your Eminus influencing, although I'm very fussy about smiles, and controversially not super keen, even though the Bergamot is one of the

I do normally like. My partner is responsible for the labelling on the bottle, image attached, and seems very keen on it as a general all-purpose spray. A bit of fish skin in the council compost caddy causes problems. My husband says spray some Fian Jane on it. And this is the picture that you have sent in, Alexis. And you've done a wonderful thing as well because you're using an old bottle of something else and you've popped the disinfectant stuff in it. I presume you've watered it down to make it last longer. and we've all done that. That's what Eve tried to do with her wine last night. It was correct. It didn't work. And I think just the fact that we've been immortalised in a domestic product is something that we can be extremely, extremely proud of. There is more in the email. You do say that there have been a lot of topics you've wanted to wade in on, and I'm sorry not to have let you know about them. Things like, I work in a secondary school, not far from East West Kensington, as a career's person, not an advisor. You need proper qualifications. for that. And so much to the chat I've wanted to comment on, but it really is a hefty topic all

round. Well, I'll tell you what, Alexis, you would be very busy at the moment, I know, as the end of the year beckons, but maybe in a quieter moment, do send us your thoughts because we are very interested, especially, you know, the kids who are heading off and maybe not going to university, have chosen a different path. We're very interested to hear what people are up to. Another very old topic, Twin Towns. My parents are still in their villages, French twinning Association, which involves annual weekend trips. They alternate each year, so one year they visit France and the next they host, you're allocated a family or couple, and they stay in your house, and vice versa. They raise money through the year to be able to offer activities to the families

when they visit. My parents had a 30-year pairing with Brigitte and Jean. And for most of that, my mother's conversational French was the only common language between the four adults. In the early years their teenage daughters would come along and my brother is still good friends with one of them whose English was beautiful she ended up working at the British Council. Unfortunately, although my parents still helped with the association, Brigitte died a few years ago and they didn't want to have a new pairing and haven't travelled to France for the last couple of times. I think the association is struggling a bit to recruit new young families, which is a shame. I think my parents joined when I was in my late teens, but I often came home to see the French and be there for their welcome, fish, and be there for their welcome,

ship, supper and such like. And Alexis says, so if you ever drive up the A-1 motorway or pass Welland station on the train heading north and see a sign that says, Wellen, twinned with Champagne-sur-U-S. And it might be Champagne-Sou-U-S. I can't do another one. O-I-S-E.

WAS? Petre North. You're now known it's a source of many friendships. I know Fee queried Twin Towns a while ago, so I hope this is enlightening. We can't go too early. We can't. Keep it together.

Sorry. Keep it together. Alexis, that's absolutely fantastic. I wonder whether people have really got into twinning in the modern world. I think it is quite an old-fashioned thing. I had actually never heard of it before this podcast. But what a lovely thing and how much happier we would all be if we did do these across.

God, totally. We might actually learn a real experience from the foreign people. Instead of just making assumptions about the foreign people. It's such a lovely concept. Yeah. So if you're, let's just put it out there. If you're under 35 and you're involved in the twinning of your particular town, will you write to us and just reassure us that it is still a thing that can happen? And also sometimes the twinning is way beyond Europe, isn't it?

You see extraordinary towns. Really? Yes, Eve. Tell me more. You could go intercontinental back in the old days. And then some towns just seem to be very greedy, and it's not just twinning. They're tripleting and quadrupling.

You just think you've had a very ambitious council. You've been mentioned in so many emails recently, and I really, really like this suggestion. So many people think, when we were talking about a coded thing to throw out into the world, if people wanted to be able to record, another off-air listener. Of course we should just use you, shouldn't we? You can become a legendary cry. This one comes from Maurice Sinclair. What a laugh hearing you read out my email yesterday.

You're very kind to compliment me on my name, but I have to burst the bubble slightly and say that, no, I don't run a very high-end wine bar in Jersey, nor do I have occasional adventures with a detective in a sports car. Marie says occasional trips to waitrose in a Volvo to purchase whichever wine is on special offer. That's so on brand. Good for you. Isn't it all the way? By the way, this one is for Jane and we will pass it on to her. I've got an Adam and Joe

anecdote concerning you. I was recently re-listening to some of their old six music shows on YouTube, and I heard Adam Buxton talking about how he would occasionally listen to Women's Hour, but that he preferred it when Jane Garvey was hosting. And Maria's given me permission to make the appropriate

ooh-hoo! Oh! noise at this point whilst pretending to clutch a handbag in front of you. Well, Marie, I'm not going to say this against Jenny Murray, but I always loved it when Jane was hosting. I'm sure Jane's listening, surely. She probably is. Yes. So there you go, Jane. There you go. She's probably going to write in under a pseudonym, isn't she? What would her pseudonym be? Maybe is Marie Sinclair? It could be Marie Sinclair. We'll ponder on that one as well. The call-out, a suggested phrase, This is from Sean for locating fellow listeners at an event.

Someone shouts, where's Eve? And a fellow listener shouts, try an island beginning with C. But you went to one beginning with P. And you know what? When I read that email, I got even more confused. Yeah. But are you now, are you going off to one beginning with C?

I'm going to Kefalonia. Okay. Okay. I did fly into Corfu. Accidentally? On purpose. I didn't know. I was flying into coffee, but I did.

There's a lot of letters that you could choose from. I would say that I'm already in a state of confusion, so I don't know if that call out would be particularly helpful for me personally. But I think we should use you as the callout, and I'm sure that people can come up with a very nice tagline. Or just ask, I'll go up and ask people, do you know Eve? Yeah, that's true. I don't think, how many very famous Eves are there out there in the world at the moment?

Who would you be confused with? who would the automatic go-to Eve B in a conversation? Honestly, can't think of one. Because back in my debt would have been Eve Pollard, I think. But I don't think that that would ding-dong many bells. Does that make me terribly unique? You can't, darling, you can't be terribly unique.

You're either unique or you're not. What was your subject at university? English literature. And Sean goes on to say, what a fantastic community you've created I don't do the Insta so I was wondering if there is another way to access pod photos

I'm 59 recently started my dream job full time where I'm using my degree in its entirety game 29 years ago I feel very fortunate and I'm absolutely loving it well go sister go that is really fantastic to hear

there isn't really another place to go for photos of the pod I mean you can watch us in visualization Mondays on YouTube and if you go to the Times Radio YouTube channel, you can see lots of us. But I don't think, not everybody wants to watch us in motion. Some people just want the static equivalent and it's instillust really, isn't it? It sort of is.

But I would highly recommend the YouTube to see some very good looks of reverie from Monday's episode. Oh, actually, I forgot to go back and consider that again. Did we do good reverie? It's very good. Is it? I was moved. Okay. Right, well that'll tempt people.

I'll tell you what, you might even get into three figures on that YouTube channel by the end of the summer, if we're lucky. I think only for the episode where you shout out from the gallery, we can see your braffy.

The call-out should be, where's Ros? And this comes from Ros, because the answer is, and I've got permission here from Ros to use the Australian an accent in Melbourne because I'm your biggest fan but I won't be coming to the UK any time soon

and I guess you're not coming here okay well we'll make a decision on what our code word is in well we'll definitely definitely wait until Jane's back to do that Anne Marie says yes of course I've seen a sulphur crested cockatoo on my local train turned into this kind of extraordinary

is that another bird and there is what I think is a little kind of it's one of those super whizzy three carriage numbers that go between local stations which never have a toilet on board that just worries me, I can't get on them. There is a great big cockatoo

just sitting on the back of somebody's seat and presumably its owner sitting next to him. I'd just be so worried about them having the poop. I'm not sure about this. I can't get on board if you pardon the pardon. It's a bit unnerving. If I was on a mode of public transport and there was a big bird with a beak and some claws

It's not to everybody's liking, is it? Some people find it terrifying. I'd be very interested to know what the rules are. I just didn't think that it was open season to take all kinds of animals on board public transport. Do you need a special pass? Do you get rejected from boarding the bus on occasion depending on the driver?

It's weird, isn't it? And how big an animal can you take on a bus? I mean, have you had a very, very substantial goat, can you just hop on board the 137? I don't know. It goes in the same box as why aren't the more bigger animals in inner cities, though, which is a question that I'd like answered to. So are you quite interested in breaking the mould of the domestic pet?

Yes. And thinking outside the box. I am. And thank you for noticing. So what's on your horizon? Okay. So if I, I love you for asking this question, because I have thought about it,

a lot. So if I had a garden that had quite a bit of lawn on it, and I just don't have a big enough garden to have lawn anymore, hence the hard standing by Dick and Dom, Dom and Dick, just don't go there. If I had a decent enough bit of lawn, I would want to have some sheep. I mean, they graze, and they, I mean, they don't, they don't need to exercise that much. and I don't really understand why more people wouldn't have that kind of animal. I don't really like... We had a very, very bad-tempered goat when we were growing up, so I'm a little bit averse to goats.

But again... They do, they do. They do. But they're very beautiful and lovely, and lots of people really enjoy their company. They're quite cheerful, I find. Yeah. I don't understand why people don't have them. There was a bit of a fashion for the mini pig.

Wasn't there a while back? Yes. The teacup pig. Yep. And those seem to have gone as well. But it is quite strange when you think we've basically just stuck at cats and dogs. Yes. Would you walk your flock through Doulston?

If I could, yes. Okay. Because I think if you would just have sheep in your garden, I appreciate that they would bring you joy when you look out your window. But beyond that, what purpose do they serve? I love their knowing look. And, you know, lots of people have cats. who just, I mean the cats just can't stand their own.

That's quite true actually. You know, they're not very affectionate. It'd be really nice after a long day at work just to go and stick your hands deep and some wool. Wouldn't it just? So we'll punt that one out to the hive as well. And I might be, you know, I might just need correcting. Maybe there are bibles in this country

about what you can and can't keep. Perhaps that could be a post-retirement plan for you. Push some policy if there are any. Really? You think that's what I should take? I'll put that next door to the folder of the school uniform, which is still there. And it bugs me every September. That one's a bit more admirable. But I think that you've got something here.

But do you know what? With the school uniform, actually, do you know what I meant to mention this to you months ago, when we were all talking about it, and it was never, I never thought I'd like to help a campaign or start a campaign to ban school uniform. It's not that. It's just the type of school uniform that just seems to have become. ingrained and accepted in our education system, which lots of kids just find itchy, scratchy, is very expensive. It has been sexualised. We would just be unwise not to recognise that.

So it was more about just thinking of something better. And of course, more intelligent, forward-thinking people are already across it, aren't them? And we were contacted by a campaign group that have done exactly that. They've put more comfortable school, uniforms into lots of schools already. So I felt I could take my foot off the accelerator there. So you're looking for something else now. Yes. And your flock might just be it.

Animal Bightlors. Here we come. This is fascinating from M in Disley in Cheshire. Longtime messenger, often just to myself in my head. With regards to sausages on the barbecue, the pro tip is to boil them beforehand, start them in cold water. I learnt this from a, a restaurant, cook them through in advance and then finish them on the barbecue or grill,

no danger, and also all the tasty fat stays inside and doesn't baste on the pan, saves you from being caught with a spoon in the pan late at night, minimises the risk of your guests blaming their illness on a sausage and not bad behaviour. I've never heard of that before. I didn't think you could boil a sausage because I thought it got very kind of steamy and it would blow up the sausage casing. You're a vegetarian, I'm a vegetarian, but I, well, I'm open to the tips because I'm not sure I've ever actually had a perfectly cooked veggie sausage either. They're either kind of of underdone and slimy and a bit gross in the middle, but at least you know you probably won't get food poisoning. There is that, but it might have nudged up against something. That must

be the danger. You've got to live life. You have to take your chance, just have it, don't you? And yeah, maybe that is with slightly undercooked meaty. So when you go to a barbecue of, what do people just give you endless vegetable skewers? I think nowadays people are a bit more creative. I eat fish as well. I'll have a prawn on the Barbie. Putting a prawn on the Barbie there, Eve. Thank you. That'd be a great big tiger prawn.

Hopefully. A king prawn? A king prawn. We love a king prawn. Is there a queen prawn? Oh, I hope so. Yeah, I hope so too. Put it on the list. Mr Lee on the segment

regarding fees thoughts about moving to Fairham. Now, I mean, talk about a deflating email to read. the traffic between Fairham and Lee on the Selden is not good. Newgate Lane is a real faff. She should consider Lee as it's on the sea as advertised. She would, I think, be better in Hillhead, next to Lee, very green and quiet, or Alvestock, which is very nice. That went down like a lead balloon.

It did. But actually, Hillhead is a place so close to my heart. It's where we took a boat out with my dad's ashes. And we sprinkled them at sea because he absolutely. He absolutely loved the sea. He loved his sailing. And he had spent many of his childhood holidays at Hillhead. It was a place that none of us had ever been to, but it really, really meant something for him. So I love that part of the world. I actually can't really, I can't visit it over and over again. But Mr. Leon the Solent, thank you for that. You redeemed yourself at the end of the email, as the first one was troubling to me. Now, did you believe the suitcase, dog thing or did you because both you and jane exchanged a look when i was reading it out that just went nah we've heard this before did you do you regard it as an urban myth i do yeah yeah okay because we've got somebody who claims that it was absolutely true once and this person is very

convincing yeah so it's sarah who joins us from sydney i won't do the accent anymore my accent is spent Sarah, via Edinburgh, who says I was listening to the recent episode about dead bodies when I heard the story about the dog in the suitcase stolen by a kind stranger on the London underground and I burst out laughing. Jane, I heard your scepticism, but I'm writing to you today from approximately 10.5,000 miles away to tell you it's real, it happened. I can confirm this with a level of certainty that is admittedly several degrees removed, but bear with me. My best friend's ex-boyfriend had a friend. that friend was the original person this happened to. I know, I know, we're already four people deep

and we haven't even left the platform, but here's where it gets better. My best friend, upon hearing the story, did what any reasonable person would do, she told her entire family, every single one of them, and the story has since taken on a life of its own. It is at this point absolute law in her household, and the crown jewel of this retelling belongs to her grandma,

who's told so many people so many times that she's now lost the thread entire, and genuinely believes that happened to my best friend herself. It didn't, but try explaining that to Grandma. The person who wrote and mentioned they were also in Sydney, as am I. The story began on a London tube staircase, travelled through several WhatsApp chats, survived at least one grandmother's creative retelling,

ended up in my earphones on a sunny Sydney morning, which still makes me cackle like I was hearing it for the first time. I mean, I suppose an urban myth does have to start somewhere. It does, and that's true. Yeah, I think Yeah, I'm going to leave at that. Are you? Just walk away. I'm just walking away. I'll leave.

Yeah, as the Nirovvian worn off. I too, I'm spent. I'm spent. How will you be satisfying your mild football over later on? Do you do the greasy food at lunchtime? Can you not really eat anything until later? These are important details to pass on. Yes, I, when I'm not going to say hungover,

but when I am a bit tired, I am a bit of a bottomless pit. Are you? Not so much greasy. Maybe more just probably carbly. Okay. Well, I'm going to just keep a sly eye on you and I'm going to report back next week exactly what happened. You can always tell when it's been quite a big sporting event actually in the building

because the queue for anything that has chips on it in the canteen just spreads all the way around the block. I did take a bit of comfort in the fact that I might not feel great but everyone up at Talk Sport must feel a lot worse. We're doing the afternoon show from the TalkSport Studios at the moment because our studio is being rebuilt. And there just is a locker room smell up there. So there's nobody actually playing sport at TalkSport.

They are just talking about sport, which is why it's such a great name for a station. But it just smells like a locker room. How are they managing to do that? Do we smell like politics down here and what's going on? I think it just seeps out of their police. doesn't have. Yes.

Now, you had a very good suggestion, Eve, and I'm going to read out this email first, and you can tell us what the suggestion is. It came in from Jane, who says, I think I missed the episode about Henry Harris from Bouchon Racine. So Henry Harris is the co-owner of Bouchon Racine, which is a really lovely French restaurant above a pub in Farringdon in London, which has won the National Restaurant of the Year Award. And I suppose the reason why it really caught people's attention

was because it's not the Ritz of the top spot. So the Ritz won last year. And this very small, actually, I think it's only 60 covers, maybe even less, French restaurant has won it this time around. So we talked to Henry Harris on the afternoon show, the day after he had won the award. And Jane missed it and has scrolled all the way back to early 2025 and can't find it in the list.

That's because it was on the afternoon show and it wasn't on the podcast. But, but, well, it was sort of Jane's idea because from that it occurred to me that we should put it out as a Friday bonus because you'd spoken earlier this week about how, as an interviewee, he had a little something, something something a bit different. Yes, he did. I would say that he is the least media trained interviewee that I have come across in a long while. And it was was just really refreshing. He just answered the questions and then he stopped. There's a lot of the time you do just have to nudge into somebody's answer because I think part of being nervous as a guest as well is that you just don't know when to stop and it's hard to know when to stop so people

fill the time by talking and Henry was just completely different and also do you know what Jane with a Y who emailed in I just really really love his story so I I won't spoil too much of what he says, but he is just incredibly grateful that this third act in his restaurant career has been so successful because he was just not going to carry on at one time. And he's in his 60s now. But he's so humble about it. And then it really, really does make you want to go and, well, not in your case,

but in many people's cases, the carnivore amongst us does want to go and salivate. over a very good stapernets. I have eaten that. We went on a very lovely special occasion lunch, actually, with my son and my partner and my godson. And they were really lovely to us, and they put us in a table on their terrace, which is a covered terrace.

But it means you look out, you can see the Smithfield market, where all the meat used to be sold. I mean, it still is sold, but it's not as big as it used to be. It's a really wonderful. part of London and we just had such a lovely lunch and it is quite old school French so you order these dishes and this kind of

huge plate of meat arise with glistening sauce around it and then we had a crem caramel which was accompanied by an arminiac soaked prune which I wouldn't usually go near I mean honestly what on earth is that

it's really sexy dry fruit eve that's what it is it is it is really it's like it's like a burlesque show being done by a plum that's what it is the plum working overtime it certainly is it's an X-rated plum that and i wouldn't usually eat one of those for fear of repercussions henry might have lost me there but it was it was fantastic actually really really really fantastic so yeah we'll bung that out tomorrow. Now shall we get to the guest today? Let us.

Robert Partridge is a publishing sensation. He's always written as a former English teacher. It began as something he did on the side of his day job. And after taking early redundancy, it became his main work. But he published himself. He uploaded his books to Amazon, VAR People's Kindles, when the Kindle first arrived on the reading scene. And his success has been totally word of mouth.

And it really is success. His crime novels featuring the clever and clever and kind Detective D.C. Smith has sold more than a million copies online. And at the age of 72, Robert now has a physical publishing deal. It was much fought over to publish his entire back catalogue, which spans several different genres. There are 20 books in the DC Smith crime series alone. And for those books, Robert writes as Peter Granger. I asked him why he had chosen that name. Peter Granger is the leading character in the first book. that I ever put onto the Kindle as an e-book.

And that was called Afon, which is Welsh for River. And that was under my Robert name. He was a failed school teacher who had had success with his very first novel, which I didn't. His name was Peter Granger. So when I was looking for another name, because I wanted to put the crime novels under a different name, he seemed the obvious choice.

So eventually he found success again. And so when you choose a different name for yourself, you know, does it make it easier to then write under that name? Is it a kind of slight switch of identity? You know, from 10 o'clock in the morning, I'm Peter Granger and I write best-selling books? I didn't at the time. I think it is partly that the main reason I did it was because I wanted to separate out the novels I'd already published

from a particular attempt at a genre, which was crime, police procedural. And I didn't really want the people who'd read my Robert books, so I call them that, to be expecting more of the same. I wanted a new identity, a new start, because it was a... a new genre for me. You've described yourself as being addicted to writing and you've compared it to the smoker who just can't stop smoking. I mean, how many fags are you having a day? At the moment, far too few because as a result of the publications and the amazing things that Penguin had done in Union Square, that's involved a lot of revision of the books.

They've been brilliant, but they haven't asked me to really change much at all. But I've had to go through all of the books, so that's when I've done them all, it'll be 20. They took 15 years to write, and I'm trying to get through them all in under a year. So at the moment, I've given up smoking again in that I'm not really writing much, but I'm keen to get back to it. I'll be glad when this part is done. Let's spool back then, because your story is just extraordinary. I think it's a really optimistic story. It's one that really touches many people's hearts,

the idea that you wrote for the love of writing, you put these books up on a Kindle, and they have grown and grown and grown through word of mouth because people just love the books. So talk us through what life was like all those years ago before you were the million-selling author that we meet today? Well, for most of my work in life, I was a schoolteacher. I taught English. I did it full-time for most of that time. I was a head of department for several years.

So I had to take all that very seriously. I'd be writing on and off. I've always seemed to have been writing on and off, fitting it in around, you know, a full-time job. I went, I took early retirement a couple of years early so that I went part-time first, then I took early retirement a couple of years early. They offered me a good deal.

I took a lump sum and thought I'll invest that in sitting down and having proper time to write daytime rather than early mornings or late evenings. So that was, that was significant obviously because I had to take it more seriously and I wanted to. Alongside that, this was when e-books took off and this was a route to publication which I knew nothing about until my son suggested it. I didn't know what a Kindle was, did he show me one. But it took off from there. And the Robert books went out first. They didn't sell a lot of copies,

but the reaction was quite good. And, I mean, forgive my ignorance on the process of it, but if you have a whole book that you've completed, you can literally just upload it onto a Kindle. I mean, does money change hands from you to them at that time? No. No, it was, I think there are possibly some controls now. At the time, there were no gatekeepers.

no checks, no controls. So you could load up almost anything. And it's simply Amazon acts as the shop window. And you buy a space in their shop window for which they take a percentage and the rest is yours. And when did you start to realize that, you know, people were telling other people that they were sharing their love of your books

and this was really, really growing? It began to happen with, let's call them the Robert books, if you're the first three or four. So each time I put a new one out, it would do a little better. But I used to speak to people on the Kindle forums. So there are forums where Kindle writers can meet, discuss, ask questions and so on, insult each other and all the rest of it. And there was some very, amongst some very odd people, there was some really experienced people who've been doing it for years. And they, you know, they know if you're serious

and they give you good advice. And the best advice they gave me was write a series. Don't write one-offs. Because over time, if you stick out, it builds. And sure enough, it did. So were you a great reader of crime novels before you decided to do the genre? Okay.

No. I still haven't read that many. I did start to read around when I thought, actually I quite like this genre. This seems to be working out. So I did read around what was currently successful in the bestseller lists, and I didn't like many of them. The series I found, which I still rate as one of the very best,

is the Beck series, written the Scandinavian husband and wife team. or wife and husband, because I think she was kind of the leader. And I think that still stands up as a key moment in crime fiction. What did you like about that in particular? They were, in one sense, they were ordinary people. There were no superheroes. They made mistakes.

But they had a genuine desire to put things right, to find some justice for the victims. The crimes aren't, one or two are odd, but they're not particularly sensational. They're not full of graphic violence or sex or even much bad language. And that was kind of a model. I thought, yeah, I think if I'm going to do it, it's got to be that way. So you turned away from the mutilated body of the young woman found in the woods, which is where so many people go.

So tell us about the Kings Lake investigation. series about D.C. Smith. How did he form in your head? So there are two things about that. It's kind of two series, but one. The first eight were about Smith, but he had to retire because he mentions retirement in about the second chapter of the first book. So he couldn't go on any longer. He retires in book eight. At that point I got a very cross-reaction from the readership, what are you going to do? That can't be the end. What about Waters?

What about other characters? So I was already thinking it might be possible to continue stories set in Kings Lake with his team and just kind of explore his influence and them developing and growing into the job. So the first one of those were Songbird. that worked really well. People really liked it. Smith appears in every book in some context.

He's a very likable. He's a very likable man. And I wonder whether you wrote him because you saw people like that around you or you wrote him because you didn't. I do know some likable people. It goes back to what we were saying before. I wanted a detective and, in fact, some detectives,

who in one sense were normal, ordinary people with a sense of humour because so many of the detectives in those other kind of books which you mentioned are themselves dark, dysfunctional, troubled people and I thought, well, they can't all be like that. There's lots of ordinary people who are good policemen, surely. So I wanted to go down that route. I didn't want him to be, as I said, a superhero.

I didn't want him to be deeply troubled or upset. He has his issues. I mean, Smith has some sadness in his life. But I wanted him, first of all, to be recognisable to ordinary people. And he's having a little bit of a battle, isn't he, about the kind of the management speak, the bureaucracy of the police. And you were a teacher for many years. I mean, would it be an exaggeration to say that some of the reason

why you might have left teaching was because you found a battle against the executive paper clips a little bit troubling yourself? I wouldn't say that's an exaggeration in any sense whatsoever. I think public institutions

people in all of them have had to fight that battle. And so, yes, it was a factor in my deciding to, I mean, I love the job. I enjoyed being a teacher very much. But there came a point where the conflicts with what was being demanded by their management began to outweigh the pleasure in the job. So yes,

that was a factor and absolutely I think it is reflected in Smith's battle with Superintendent Alan. Yeah, which is often quite, it's just quite deliciously funny as well, isn't it? I would imagine quite cathartic to write sometimes do. I'd like to come back and talk a bit more about your teaching experience, but let's dwell on the books for a little bit longer because we can't have a conversation without mentioning the setting of your books

and the place that they take us to as readers. Now, on our podcast, we have an international audience so not everybody would know the beauty of Norfolk. Can you describe it to new ears? When you go there for the first time, I think people are surprised. Yes, there are charming little villages and flint cottages and windy back roads and it's all very pretty. But when you find the road from that village that goes out into the salt marshes, the creeks, their vast beaches, I think that comes as a surprise to a lot of people. it's wide open

it's huge it's an expanse and you can even today popular as it is you can go there in summer and choose the right spot and there won't be anybody else

in sight or maybe a dog walker in half a mile away so it still has that sense of wildness and it feels unspoiled it is important in the story I know from the Facebook and emails that there are Americans

who have visited the UK and made a point of going there because of the setting in the books, which I think is fantastic. Yeah. Well, I can imagine why you'd want to because you write about it in a very evocative way. Do you worry at all with the huge publishing deal

that you've achieved and congratulations for that. I think it was a five-way auction to buy your back catalogue. A member of your publishing team is in the room with us. I'm very aware of that. I'm not going to ask too difficult question here. But you've made a leap from a world

which you were very much in control of as a writer into a world where you're the essential part, but you're not the ultimate controller. And I think we'd all be interested in what that feels like, actually. It's complicated. I think is the fairest way to put it. I'm very, very grateful to the people who pulled the trigger, to my agent, Emma, who's done a fantastic job.

She's done exactly what she promised and more. But yes, there is an element in which, in fact, we were just talking about this today. For example, we created the covers for those early books. we did ourselves. My son is quite good with tech and stuff. So we sorted all that out. We got quite attached to those. But Penguin would like to put her own covers on and Union Square would like to put their own covers on. And in miniature, that's the process you have to go. You have to give something up, I think. But on the other hand, you know, there are a lot of gains. So I'm not

regretting it, but it's not a straightforward hooray. Do you think it makes a difference as well that you are, I'm just going to say it, Robert, you're an older gentleman. You're not old? You're older than younger ones. Should we put it that way? I mean, it's such a beautiful story that you wrote all of these because you loved writing and they became successful because people have loved reading them.

sometimes that can create a little bit of discomfort of huge success comes to you when you're very young but I mean you've done it really haven't you? I think yeah I mean one could say I wish this has happened at 25 or 30 but do you? No no okay no I'm quite happy to do it this way around it's a bit late

but no I think I'd rather do it this way around. And in some senses it leaves you in a stronger position than you would have been. I think with a younger writer, maybe had their first or second book accepted his the deal. They can't say no to anything, I imagine. And also you just would then have that massive waste of expectation on you, wouldn't you? Yeah. Well, the first suggestions when we were in negotiations before anything was signed was obviously we'll take the book list and what you'll do is you'll do is you're you'll commit the next three, you'll commit to writing three more in this series. And I said, no, no, I'm simply not.

I can't guarantee that, you know, I don't know how long this is going to run for. I don't know what the next story is. So I didn't agree to that. And then they came around and said, all right, well, just focus on the backlist, which is fine. So I'm not under that pressure. And similarly with the editing and revisions, because the books are already out there in some numbers,

and they're kind of set and popular enough, I couldn't commit major rewrites or edits, so I wasn't going to do that. So we've come to a workable compromise. Can I be quite cheeky, and perhaps you won't want to answer this, but were any of the people involved in the five-way auction, people who you'd approached earlier in your writing career, who had said no, thank you?

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I can't say that they were. I mean, I did approach a number of agents over the years. I can only remember a couple of names, and it would be awful to mention. But, yeah, there are well-known agents who had a look at things I'd written through the years, you know, politely said, not what we're looking for at the moment kind of answer. But, no, not actual publishers. Can we talk a bit about teaching because you were teaching at sixth form?

Is that correct in a community college as well? That's what I did for my last few years was mostly aidable. Do you think that teenagers, especially the ones who are leaving education, are they in a very, very perilous place now more so than ever before? Yes. Yeah, I absolutely think they are. I mean, I have a 14-year-old grandson. I'm quite concerned about what. he's going to find. And I was a six-form teacher and a six-form tutor, and I got myself into trouble

with the management, because there were occasions when I, you have to advise them about university entrance, and there were some students even then taking A-level to whom I said, well, there are alternatives. You don't have to go to university, are you sure you want to? And I got into trouble for that, because the school wants the university entrance rates to be right up there. And even at that time I was thinking, I'm not sure this is right for everybody. And now that really has come home to Roost, I think we've got a million unemployed graduates.

Yeah, not an education and private training. Mostly they owe between 50,000 and 60,000 pounds. And the threshold to repay isn't shifting. So more and more of them are having to pay. I think in that respect alone, in tertiary education, this isn't looking good, I think. And, I mean, it's far too big a question to expect one person to answer, but in terms of a solution, what would your simple advice be? I seriously think that people shouldn't go to university

unless they want to join one of the professions where it is essential, or they have a deep love of their subject. and I think that's probably how university entrance used to be. I think something has happened to it. It's partly political over 30 years, 40 years maybe. But I would say to people, unless you want to be a doctor or an architect or one of those professions, you've got to go in that case. If you get the grades and you're passionate about medieval history or French literature,

go to university. I'm not sure where the rest are going. What can we do that also slightly boils up the mindset of our young people? Because we as adults have so many conversations that are doom-laden at the moment because we can't quite believe the world that we're looking out on. I think for a young mind, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but most young people I know, they want to embrace the world. They actually do not want to be in. their rooms feeling anxious and despondent and chased down a rabbit hole of doom. But it is hard

because sometimes it feels we're being unrealistic if we say it'll be fine. I'm not sure that we know that, do we? As I say, I'm quite worried about it. What we try and focus on with our one representative of that generation is not so much grades and academic success. we focus a lot more on how you interact with people, respecting people, working incredibly hard at whatever you do, even if you're not good at that subject. You always do the homework. You always respect the teachers and so far, it's so good. But I think, yeah, young people are going to need other qualities now than just academic qualifications because it's going to be a tough world.

When you were teaching, did the students have a nickname for you? Did you know about it if they did? I probably had one or two. They were never open about it. My sixth form, however, gave me my first ever email address. So they thought it was hilarious that I didn't have email. And I didn't. Way behind it, you know, most people, even at my age.

So we were literally sat in a lesson one day and I said, yeah, I'm going to get email, I'm going to go on email but I don't know what address I'm going to use so they said, can we make one up? Oh my God. So they did and I've used it ever since. So I can tell you, I won't tell you all of it. No, please don't.

Don't be very unwise. No, don't tell me your mum's maiden name. Don't tell me your data birth. But the, no, the first part of my email address is Robert. Dot wise old owl. So I've always stuck with that. And that's quite nice.

Some sort of justice is the latest crime fiction novel to come from Peter Granger. But I would honestly, if this is the first time that you've heard of Peter, I would do yourself a favour as I've done and go right back to the beginning. And start because what a waste it would be not to make the most of the Kingslake investigation. series. So all of them are now being published by Penguin and I would just say go and enjoy yourself in them. Eve and I and Jane, is that wrong grammatically? You know, no, that's all right, isn't it? We will all be back on Monday and our email remains the same. It's Jane and Fee at times.comradio. And obviously we wish Eve luck with her hangover. Thank you. Quietly. Goodbye.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer. is Rosie Cutler.