Off Air... with Jane and Fi - LIVE AT CHELTENHAM LITERATURE FESTIVAL (with Brenda Blethyn and Ann Cleeves)

Episode Date: October 18, 2024

In this bonus podcast episode, Jane and Fi are live on stage at the Cheltenham Literature Festival speaking to actress Brenda Blethyn and writer Ann Cleeves about the character Vera Stanhope. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Times Tech podcast sponsored by ServiceNow. A podcast presented from San Francisco and from London. Each week, a fresh interview with pioneers in tech from the brightest startups to the tech giants. That's the Times Tech podcast where Danny in the Valley, that's Silicon Valley, meets me, Katie, in the city, the city of London. Exploring how tech is changing life and business in this new world of artificial intelligence. The Times Tech podcast with Katie Prescott and Dani Forzen. Follow us now wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line.

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Well Jane, their fleet has so many unique bars, lounges and restaurants. They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities on board. You wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life. For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. It's now, is it over a week since we enjoyed the delights of the Times radio bus in Chelten?

I think it is just over a week but it feels like yesterday Jane because it was so much fun it's going to live large in my memory for a very long time. Well you can probably still smell the bus can't you? I can yeah. Okay now what was a wonderful day at Shelton can now be relived and enjoyed by both the people who were there and there were lots of you. Thank you very much for coming. And by the people who just long to be there. We are going to spend a decent amount of time in the company of one of the finest writers, particularly crime writers in this country,

Anne Cleves and her creation Vera Stanhope who in real human form on the ITV network is the actor Brenda Blethan. They were glorious, we made a good stab at just being there and here it is. Good afternoon, welcome to the Cheltenham Literature Festival. Round of applause please. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming this afternoon. I'm Jane Garvey. This is Fee Glover, but much, much more importantly, we are now so delighted to be able to welcome Brenda Blessin

and Anne Cleves. Welcome to listeners at home, people sitting back with hopefully a nice cup of tea and a few hobnobs on the go. It's exactly the right spirit in which to enjoy the conversation. So just a couple of notes of order here at Cheltenham. You can ask questions of Anne and Brenda by using the slygo.com app, and a QR code will appear magically in front of you. You can pop your question down, and then I get it here on the screen.

And if you are listening back at base, wherever you are, it's Jane and Fee at Time Stop Radio. And we will have a very, very high tech method of communication where Rosie or Eve, our producers, will write your question down on a piece of paper and run it off the stage for us. And that will probably be the method that works the best. It's so lovely to be able to welcome both of you.

We couldn't quite believe it when you both said yes, because this is a double whammy of dreams for any fan of Iris Hedges. A nightmare. A nightmare. No, it's not a nightmare. Not a nightmare at all. And I suppose the first question is a very obvious one, but it's about how you felt about each other when you first met, because there is such an alchemy

in your acting and your writing. So that first meeting... I'll remember it to you. Yeah, in the old production office in the Swan Hunter building at Wallsend. Yeah, it was the very first read-through of the pilot programme. And I, well I'd been practising the accent but it wasn't very good. But I thought, well maybe I'll get away with it just for today. And then I saw Anne Cleaves sitting in the corner.

And I had the biggest imposter syndrome that you've ever had in your life. Here I was, you know, watching these people reading a script that Paul Ruttman had written, the lead script writer, after chatting to me for a while, and thinking, I shouldn't be here. This isn't for me. You know, this is an Oscar-nominated actor. Nope. Can we...

...finish with tender. Will you own it, please? You are Oscar-nominated. Many of us think you should have please? Oscar nominated. Many of us think you should have won, but anyway. You are, because the accent is obvious, we're going to have to tackle the accent. You're from Ramsgate. Yeah. So, I don't know why that got a laugh particularly.

Tell us about Ramsgate. Well they sound like this in Ramsgate. In fact when I was a kid I was ever so posh, I don't know why because we weren't posh, we were very very working class but whenever there was an event at school and they needed one of the pupils to read out I was always chosen because for some reason I spoke with a posh accent. But what was I... What were we doing? Well, I... Don't worry. Oh, yes, I know what I was going to say. Yeah, my driver in Newcastle, who takes me to and from the set, had to deliver a small trailer to location, in case it was raining, we could shelter in it.

And so we got a cab back and the driver asked him what he did and he said he was a driver on Vera. He drove Vera around he said oh what's she like he said oh yes she says yeah she's all right he said well she's a good North Northern lass and John said well she's not actually she's from Kent. He said no then he came to blows. So Brenda you might not know this and Anne might not know this either but Jane and I are huge fans of Vera and Jane in particular really keys in to the character of

Vera. She sees quite a lot of herself in the character of Vera and is particularly good at impersonating you doing it. I can say one word in the style of Vera. It is such a good word. Some people here who are regular listeners to the podcast may know this already because it was quite a meme for a while. Jane's ability to say the one word from Vera. So are you ready for it? Drum roll.

Are you ready for it? Are you ready for it? Drum roll. Are you ready for it? Are you ready for it? Kenny! Not bad. It's as if we were there. Well, I never quite knew him. Not for want to try, I thought for you. He's great Kenny, isn't he?

Kenny is one of the really, really lovely members of the cast, isn't he? Kenny is one of the really really lovely members of the cast isn't he? I mean it's not, I think you've developed such a beautiful way of conveying the kind of a slight comedic relationship between you and Kenny. Is that a written thing Anne or is that Brenda bringing it up? It's not from the books, it's in the script. But when the pilot was being done, there is another officer within the books, but he's called Charlie. And Elaine, who was the producer, said, we can't, we don't have a budget for another police officer. So for the first couple of series, I think, when did John come in? Episode two, season one. Yeah, so after the pilot, they discovered that they could find enough money for another officer.

They called him Kenny instead of Charlie, but it's a similar sort of character. But it really works, doesn't it? One of my brothers, nearly all his circle of friends are in the CID. I don't know why that is, but that is the case. It's incriminating. And they all say Ken is the most authentic copper on the telly.

Right, really? Yeah, John Morrison. Why, what has he got that makes you think that? He doesn't try to make it any different. It doesn't try to make it interesting. Oh But no, it just gets on with the job and is is not he gets things wrong he gets things right it's yeah And you are known not just for fear ofhope, we should say. There'll be many people here who love all of Anne's writing. I'm sure that's absolutely true of the audience here today. But is, obviously you're probably in front of a Vera positive audience, is Vera

your favourite of your characters? Keeping the pressure on you now a little bit. But that's like asking me to choose between my children isn't it? I might have a favourite but I couldn't possibly say. Might your favourite be a Northumberland based? She's closest, beer is closest to home for me yes because I live in the northeast, I live in North Tyneside. I was able to go on set when they were filming and was always made to feel very welcome. And yes, that's closest to home for me. Can we talk a little bit about what control you as a novelist have over the television adaptations of your work? How does that play out?

I have no control at all and I wouldn't want control. Really? I love having that creative freedom to write the books. And I think it would be very unfair to stop the team having the same sort of creative freedom, the script writer and the director, to have a very clear vision. They would know exactly what they wanted to do.

And me sticking my oar in and saying, oh, I'm not sure Vera would do that. Or I've got Brenda to do that for me anyway. She's on the set doing that for me anyway. If I pick up on anything that I think is not kind of organic to what Anne would have wanted. I'm not sure. Yeah.

So I don't need to. But what I did do, and I think what was very important, was insist that they come up and explore the region before they started filming. Right. So we had this crazy few days when Paul Ruttman, the scriptwriter and Elaine, who found the books originally, came up and... But we decided we would do them a tour of Northumberland

and we wanted them to think that I was a very successful crime writer, but we drove a very crap car. So we hired this car that my husband was driving them round in Tim was driving round in but he'd never really driven one like that before I don't think that's smart before so we sort of jerked them around the North Amarillo countryside but yeah that gave us a chance to talk and to see the different places that they might fill. And do you think so you can honestly say that when you wrote The Dark Wives, for example, which we both read

and thoroughly enjoyed, you're not thinking of Brenda when you write about Vera? I don't see Brenda because I'm mostly inside her head looking out. So when you're writing, I think you're inside the character and I don't really see her from the outside in, but I certainly hear her voice when I'm writing dialogue. I think one of the really wonderful things about the book is Vera's backstory so to be able to

reference Hector, Vera's father in always quite an enigmatic but also slightly dark way is a very clever thing. And this is such a selfish desire as a reader and a viewer of the series. But I've always wanted that to kind of spin off into a whole story of its own. I've always been intrigued by him. Do you think that that might ever happen?

Are you intrigued by him? I don't need to be intrigued because I know him and her. I suppose I could do a short story about Hector maybe. That would be quite fun to do. I quite like the way the backstory is drip-fed. I think in life, if you know everything there is to know about someone, you lose a little bit of interest. And if you don't know everything,

it maintains that intrigue and it's... Yes, but I often feel that I want to know, I want to know more about his, why he was like he was, which sounds just quite kind of bad tempered and a bit difficult and in love with nature and where he was. He lost the love of his life. His wife died.

And I think if she'd lived, he might have been quite a different person, but he was left without her and with a child that he really didn't want, couldn't care for because he was depressed at the loss of his wife. And I think that's... The Darkest Evening, that episode, went into a lot of that background, didn't it? It did, yeah. When we met some of Hector's family

who were minor landed gentry. Yes. And I didn't see that coming at all. They were living in some splendour, but they were a bit wrong, weren't they? LAUGHTER But Stanhope, it is a posh name. I happened to be going through a street in Kensington in London the other day and there's a Stanhope Terrace and a Stanhope

something else. I used to live in Stanhope Gardens. There you go. Gosh, did you? That's so meant, isn't it? I was in the basement. LAUGHTER Were you? You've alluded to the fact that you're one of nine children. Now, did you become a performer because there was no other way to get noticed? Because you were number nine. Yeah, but I used to sort of make up songs. I can't sing, but it still didn't stop me. I used to make up songs and perform them in the backyard

with my friends. So I suppose I was a little bit of a attention seeker. But I had no idea I would ever be an actor. I didn't even know it was a job. How did you find out? I was working at British Rail in the freight marketing department. As you do, sort of typing away

Lady burst in and said Oh Brenda. We're entering a one act play in Manchester At the weekend and one of our actors is sick One of our actors is sick, could you do it? I said, don't be silly. They said it's only one line. I said, oh, it's a real dirty old night. Evans the post says the mist is right down to the pass. Quite thick, he said it was. Where was it set, Brenda? Cardiff. Oh, OK.

So I said, oh, go on then, I'll help you out. She said we were desperate. I said, oh, go on. But I just like the whole camaraderie of it. They've got somebody drawing a poster, somebody fixing a light bulb, somebody making some costumes, and all these skills coming together

just for one evening's entertainment, I thought it was quite wonderful. So I joined the group and we used to do three one act plays a year and the more you do the better you get and people started to say, you know, you could be professional. And I thought, well, give up my good job to pursue a hobby. But then I thought, well, maybe up my good job to pursue a hobby. LAUGHTER But then I thought, well, maybe I wonder if I could. And what was your first professional role? It was with a touring theatre company called the Bubbles Theatre Company in London, and it toured all the London boroughs in a big yellow tent,

and it went to boroughs that didn't have a theatre. And we did Under Milkward, the London pub show, Jack the Ripper, a musical on Jack the Ripper, honestly. LAUGHTER And a kid show, and I was a lady with a bucket on the foot. And dancing around the park with a bucket on my foot, disturbed a hornet's nest and all the children were stung So she was a short-lived character It's a long you weren't presumed be thinking then about Oscar nominations, were you?

It was probably some way off. No, still not. Anne, one of the reasons I think your writing is so good and so richly enjoyable, I think everybody in the room will have loved your work over the years, but it's because you had a life before you started writing. You've done stuff, haven't you? And had to do stuff for 20 years while I was writing Because I didn't have any commercial success for the first 20 years of being published So that meant that I did have to do all sorts of work like I'd trained to be a social worker

so I worked as the probation officer and I helped out with play groups and youth clubs and worked in a hostel for homeless women and sold tickets for British Airways. That was the worst job in the world. And finally landed up working in public libraries, which was great. But it was only 20 years in with Raven Black winning the gold dagger that I was able to give up the day job. Yeah, it's great because you're meeting people and you're meeting all sorts of different kinds of people.

But did you have that writer's mind where in all of those jobs you were obviously engaged in the reality but also observing with the kind of ticker tape running through your brain of how you would retell what you were seeing. Yeah very much I think I'm just nosy so you you meet someone you want to like you were saying what made Hector as he is you want to know what why people behave as they do and what's going on and they seem very very cosy, that couple over there, they're married to other people, I wonder.

You know, that kind of what if, which is what writing fiction is all about, I think. Yeah, and so what enabled both of you to feel that courage inside to actually make what you were good at as you know in your kind of personal time out there to be judged by others because you are both in professions where it is the judgment of strangers that actually defines your success and you do I think you have to have a kind of courage to do that would

you agree? Well yeah I suppose you yeah do. I just want to get it right. And I always, when students ask me what would one tip I would give them, I always say never make yourself more interesting than the character you're playing. So don't think, oh, this scene on the sofa would be better maybe if I sat like this. Obviously it wouldn't. Just do what the character would do. If they were just sat quiet in the corner, just do that. Don't make it more interesting than the author is intended. That's a very good tip.

Yeah, I think because I didn't have any success and very few reviews at the beginning. Like Brenda, it's about making the book as good as it can be and the sort of book that I would want to read, I suppose. And being able to practice on the job was great because I didn't feel that pressure of having to do what I'd done before or hit the sales that I'd had before because I was very much bumping along on the bottom, but working at it and wanting to do it right and not wanting to do it right to make more money really

just for the satisfaction and getting it right. I think you are a very, well you strike me as being quite a modest person, but you've got to be one of the most successful novelists in the country now with your, the adaptations of your books, Shetland, the Matthew Venn series. You've had an amazing trajectory, haven't you? And it must be tremendously satisfying. It is, but it's about luck, really. If Elaine hadn't gone into the Oxfam shop where a copy of The Crow Trap had been on the shelves and realized that it might make a series because they were

looking for something with a strong leading female detective, and they wanted something to replace, I think, Frost on a Sunday night, wasn't it? Then Vera would never have been on the television. That's honestly what happened. That's honestly what happened. Ironically, you didn't start that book as a detective novel, did you?

No. No, it was started off because I had a trendy new editor who decided that they didn't want a traditional detective story. So please could I write some sort of thriller that didn't have a traditional detective story, so please could I write some sort of thriller that didn't have a detective in it? LAUGHTER Oh, well, you've got done so badly. I don't plot in advance, and I got stuck,

so Vera appeared. It's about halfway through the book, isn't it? Yeah, and you read it, didn't you? They sent it to you. Well, I thought I was going to be the lead star in it! LAUGHTER And then halfway through, the door of the church opens, You read it, didn't you? They sent it to you. Well, I thought I was going to be the lead star in it. LAUGHTER And then halfway through, the door of the church opens and this great lummox of a woman stumbles in with two carrier bags, and that was Vera.

And I thought, well, why have they thought of me? LAUGHTER Oh, you are listening to Times Radio, and you're live with us at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. Our guests this afternoon are Anne Cleves and Brenda Blethan. And the questions have been coming in. They have. And thank you very much indeed for all of these. Oh, look, there's a helicopter above.

Is that the arrival of Boris Johnson? Yeah, he's coming by chopper. He is coming by chopper. Yeah. Appropriate, really. Yeah. LAUGHTER APPLAUSE by Chopper. Yeah. Appropriate really. Yeah. They won't broadcast that will they? No darling they won't, you're absolutely safe. Right, will there be a young Vera series similar to Endeavour? Oh. Who knows? We don't get to make those decisions. Well, I don't.

Brenda might have more inkling than me, but I said we don't know. No, no, I don't. Well, you see, I don't see that as a young Morse. I see Morse as a wonderful programme, John Thor, and I see Endeavour a wonderful programme. I don't make a connection between the two. Does anybody else? No, I think you're absolutely right.

Yeah, yeah. But would you mind if the was, would that be slightly unsettling for either of you? I wouldn't be able to write the books, I don't think, because it would take research and I'm really lazy. I would keep thinking it was wrong. I'll keep it if it's right that's a no and For and this is from Andrew will Vera ever find love Well, I

Don't think that she needs anybody can you imagine living with Vera? I think that she needs anybody. Can you imagine living with Vera? I don't think she needs it. Vera is, I wanted Vera to be a strong independent woman who was on her own through choice. I don't think she's out there looking for love. She doesn't need anybody else to be whole or complete. She is herself. And I think what she does find in The Dark Wives is a friend, an ally. And I quite liked writing that. Yeah. Yes.

The themes in The Dark Wives are very current. I mean, often in your novels, there is a sense of trying to point a finger at a social injustice and write it with, write it with the scales of justice as well. And in this novel, it's about children's homes, isn't it? And it's about privatization of children's homes and how these beautiful young people just become invisible and therefore so vulnerable.

I think so, yes. And I was triggered by a Radio 4 program, a File on 4 program about privately owned children's homes. And this was at least two years ago, maybe more than that. And it's suddenly become much more current now, because other journalists have picked it up. And there's, I think, been a program about it. But yes, 86% of the kids' homes in the UK are privately owned rather than

by charities or by local authorities. And it costs, I think, between 46,000 a year and 250,000 a year and sometimes more than that. That's what the private companies make out of these children, per per child per annum. And I just thought if that money was put into providing proper care and continuity of care and not bringing agency staff in but having some sort of commitment, because these kids are challenging and they're difficult and they're often aggressive, but they're also incredibly damaged

and some sort of counselling and support're often aggressive, but they're also incredibly damaged and some sort of cancelling and support and psychiatric help. In the end it's going to save money because these young people are going to end up either within the NHS or a huge drain through ending up in prison. And I just can't see that, I think it's iniquitous that I was talking to my friend, Steph McGovern, who did a podcast about it. And she was saying that overseas private equity firms are being told that it's the best return that you can make is to buy into private children's homes. Whoa.

Which is scary, isn't it? Isn't it? Yes. Yep. Really scary. If you could have any celebrity, this is such a gear change, come with us everybody. If you could have any celebrity appear in an episode of Vera

as a guest star, who would it be and why? You go first. Possibly as a romantic interest for Vera. No, no romantic interest for Vera. I would quite like to see Alan Armstrong in it. That would be quite fun. Oh, he's great, yeah. He's great. I think actually it would be quite weird if a mega celebrity turned up in Vera. It would be so distracting.

He has had admirers, George, downstairs. Yes. And missing persons had a soft spot. so distracting yeah he has had admirers George downstairs yes and missing persons had a soft spot the chap played by Robert Glenis yes he was very yes he was all the keen on Vera yeah yeah there are lots of questions about raincoats I'll just I'll just pick the one Brenda how many raincoats have you got through since Vera started? Three or four, but of course there have to be duplicates for If there's a stunt double So there's a bit were there were about six I think in the trailer right and then what's the level at which you have?

to get the stunt double in well if she's driving the Landy, only if it's way in the distance, they put on one of those, Max and her hat. It's not even the right hat, but it looks like it from... I mean, if you can see who it is, the shot's wrong. It used to be a man with a big red beard that's how long distance the shot is you look very adept driving the Land Rover

are you are you not a good driver oh no I am I love driving it yeah it's at one time I had to drive over the moors and it was bumpy deep on buddy boom and I had to stop about six feet in front it was bumpy bumpy bumpy and I had to stop about Six feet in front of the crew the camera and the crew. I Bumpy bumpy bumpy bumpy all the way over to it And then turned it off out of give me a handbrake on seatbelt. They said we've got to get out quicker. I Said well, I've got to do with it. They said yeah, but you've got to get out quicker I thought all right, so drove all the way back

got to do with it they said yeah but you've got to get out quicker I drove all the way back did it ever so quick no you've got to get out quicker turn it off out of gear turn it off handbrake on seatbelt off so I thought well I cut one ofe bum dee bum. And I jumped ever so quick out of the landing, and it started rolling. So all the crew jumped around the camera. And they were all like this, trying to stop them. Nearly took the whole crew out. That would have been a hell of a tale if that had happened. It didn't come to pass, so that's all right.

Do you have a favourite episode, Brenda? You can probably say one of the ones that's going to be shown next year. Could you say that? Well, one of my ones is one that's already... It's a seagull. I loved that one. I loved Little Lazarus in series one. But I think the seagull is one of my favourites. Yeah, because it's... And that's lovely for me because it's set in Whitley Bay, which is where I live.

So that's very special to me. And of course, The Dark Wives is a wonderful, wonderful story. Yes, I know. It's a very, very good story. And it will be shown in the New Year on ITV, but that will be the last ever TV It'll be such a sad moment for so many of us in our family We have a game at the end of every episode of Vera Where we try and start singing the theme tune when it comes in at the exact moment it comes in so that

My daughter wins more than any of the rest of us. We are suspended there. We don't want the programme to finish. You want to stay right to the end credits. It's such a fantastic thing that has been created. Shall I do a couple more questions from our lovely audience here? This is anonymous and apologies for that. You can put your name up or you don't have to. Which female detectives do you like to read and watch? Let's start with you, Anne. I love Sarah Paretsky's V.I. Wachowski. She was really the first and greatest recent contemporary female private eye.

I love the Chicago setting. I love her wit and I love her politics too. Yeah. You are actually quite a political writer yourself though, aren't you? You're in a quiet way. You don't, it's not blazing out of the books, but it's there, isn't it?

No, this is my angry book. I think this is the book that I've been most angry in. And I'm hoping that fiction's never going to change the world, but it might just prod a few people to make a few changes. And the government's got other things on their minds at the moment. But when they get round to it, bring children's homes back

into either local authority control or into charitable control. APPLAUSE Shall I just inject a note of balance? I mentioned it to you earlier. We had an email this week to the podcast, because I was talking about the subject of your book on the podcast this week, and somebody did email to say they take your point about the private of your book on the podcast this week. And somebody did email to say, they take your point

about the private children's homes, but the public sector wasn't brilliant with children's services either. No, that's true. And there has been a terrible, we all know the terrible stories about state institutions, don't we? So, but when you were a probation officer, did you, was that world of children's services

something that you did know about yes a bit but not Not so much because I worked by that point probation officer only worked with adults or with with young offenders, but over the age of 16 so not so much with children So Brenda, what would your answer to the same question be who do you read and like to watch? I? Don't watch a great deal of crime I like the bridge that was on recently and what's the one with the Fox one of the Fox family? Oh so is that Amelia Fox? Amelia Fox yes yes not Lawrence Fox. We don't mention him. No He's a twat, isn't he?

But Amelia Fox is lovely. Amelia Fox, I like her. Yeah. Yeah. And what is your favorite scene between Vera and Joe? Oh, Joe. One of my favorite scenes is, oh what was the episode called? It was about a high court judge and a child was missing and she wants him to go and research the back story cases. And they have a terrible row in the corridor. And she's got angina at the time. She's been treated for angina. And they have, it's almost a stand-up fight. That's one of my favourites.

Right, I remember that one. For the electricity between you two. Well, it was, they both had a point, they could see where she was coming from, but they could also see his argument. And I thought that, I love that, wish I could think of the name of it. With the peacocks, do you remember that one? I do, but I can't remember the name. All right, don't worry. Is that one of yours? No, it wasn't based on one of mine. And some of the viewers are not your stories, are they? No, because there have been 56 episodes, we reckon, didn't we? And I've only written 11 books, so... LAUGHTER It would be difficult. Yeah, we've had about 20 writers. Can I now ask a very random question,

going back to your family, Brenda? So I'd read that your parents were engaged for 20 years but didn't marry until very late. Oh, much longer than that. Why was that? They got married in 1944 after they'd had eight children. And I was born in 46. OK. Yeah. So you're the only one married in Wedlock.

In Wedlock, yes. But why did they wait so long? I mean, obviously they would have been busy. My mum was very close to her mother, and I think she made some sort of vow that she wouldn't get married until all the time her mum was alive. I don't know why that is. And she died in 1944 and they got married in 1944.

Right. And your parents' histories are just amazing. They are absolutely stories of their time, aren't they? Oh, yeah. They were great. Great. Your dad was a shepherd at one point. That was his very first job. Yes. That's rare, isn't it, really were great. Great. Your dad was a shepherd at one point. That was his very first job. Yes Yeah, that's rare. Isn't it? Yeah, and He they he went off. He was in Afghanistan When he was a young man, he was born in 1874

Then he went off to Afghanistan and then when he came back he went to work as a chauffeur in this big house where my mum was a parlor maid and They fell in love. It's amazing. Yeah, lovely story And is there a character real or fictitious that you would still like to play? That's a question for you Brenda from Robin It'd be quite nice to play someone who Bit of a cajua It'd be quite nice to play someone who.....is a bit of an Okachur.

LAUGHTER Doesn't have to... Doesn't have to say very much. LAUGHTER I'm sure that will come your way. You mean not a bucket hat and a Mac that yes exactly yeah And I hope this doesn't put you in a difficult position Do you still get paid if the Vera stories are not based on your stories? Yeah. Oh good, but not as much but not as much I'm just asking on behalf of writers in the room or people who would love to be a writer in the room because

I mean there are some people just write for telly and don't write books. Yeah. That's a whole different skill set, isn't it? I think so, yes. Because you need to be able to see, you need to understand the actors, I think, if you're writing a script. Whereas I can get inside their heads

and write what they're thinking. But you can't do that if you're a script writer. Right. In The Dark Wives, we encounter Vera. She's in a difficult place because Holly has died. And she is... She slightly... She somewhat blames herself, doesn't she, for that? And she's adjusting to a new life and a new colleague called Rosie.

Can you tell us a little bit about this dynamic? That's a wonderful character. I think she's really interesting. Yeah, I do too. And I think that's, if you wanted more in and Cleves book in that area, I think that's a way to go with Rosie. Go with Rosie. Rosie Bell. Yeah, Rosie Bell is a classic Geordie Lass really, that Newcastle is a bit of a party city, lots of stags and hen-doos, and down on the quayside is where it's jumping at night.

And you would see Rosie Bell there, wearing very few clothes and a lot of makeup, and having a good time. So I wanted somebody who was very different. She's ambitious, she's canny, she's empathetic, she's bright, but she's empathetic, she's bright. But she does... So we first meet... She's young. She's young, that's right.

And we first meet her when she's regaling Joe with the story of having been to a hen party in Edinburgh and about how they mixed all the cocktails on the train on the way up and they were bladded by the time they got there. Yeah, and Joe's not quite sure what to make of all this. Jo really disapproves. Yeah. Yeah. I think she is an intriguing character.

It must be, it's a shame that in a way we may not come to know her unless, as Brenda suggests, you take her. You take her as your lead character and let Rosie go off to investigate on her own. Well, let's see what happens. Ooh. Not being ruled out. Let Rosie go off to investigate on her own. Well, let's see what happens I'm being ruled out a fantastic question from Louisiana if Mattel were persuaded to make a Vera Barbie doll To add to their inspiring women collection would Vera with her feminist hat on support the commission? Certainly.

That would be a fantastic addition, wouldn't it? But only if they paid her royalties, surely. I've got several knitted Vera dolls. I've got one, two, three, four. And they come in from Vans. Yes, I bet they do. They're beautifully made. Yeah I'm sure you're aware of this but the first question when you type in Vera on the large search engine with the double O's in it is Does Brenda Blethan wear padding to play Vera?

Which seems I thought it was an astonishingly rude Which seems, I thought it was an astonishingly rude forward slash odd question. And Jane checked it out on her search engine too and it is there. And it's just a bit bizarre that. Well the answer is not anymore. The costume was, because Vera in the box is much taller than me, you can't make me taller, but you can make me wider, so the costume designer cleverly...

I've got so many layers on, and they all end at the hip. And so once you get the mac on, it's depending on how many layers I've got on, and it's out here like that. But that was in the first eight series, but then I sort of grew into the part. LAUGHTER I always like the scarves.

There's always quite a thin scarf, but it's very well placed. It's beautifully done. She's superstitious. She wears one just throughout the case. Oh, does she? I can't solve that. It's a good look. When you're filming, the locals like to watch, don't they? They make a day of it.

Is that inspiring, or does that go on your wick a bit? Oh, no, it's lovely. In fact, one lady, last year, it was a very, very hot day, elderly lady, and I saw a medic running across the road. We were at Redcar, I think, running across the road, and there was a commotion. I said, is everything all right over there?

They said, an elderly lady's passed out. And I said, is she all right? They said, yes, yes, they've got her up into a seat, and she won't leave. She wants to see some more filming. But then another medic went over and about two hours later I saw more medics going over. I said, no this is different, I'm going over. And she nearly passed out.

Again when I went over. And when I got home I walked into my flat, exhausted, and it was on the news. LAUGHTER There is such affection for the show in the North East, and I think because it does bring people in. Before that, I think the North East was portrayed on media by when the boat comes in and Katherine Cookson shows, and it was all really grim up north.

And I can remember after the first episode A neighbor coming up and saying that was a good show. It shows we've got posh houses up here That it was it was giving a much more balanced view of the balance view but with a murder around Yeah, it is it is a very beautiful part of the country, isn't it? And your writing does attach itself to the wild and wonderful parts of the UK, doesn't it? Yeah, I've just been very lucky, because those are the places that I know best.

So I did live in Shetland for a couple of years. And I grew up in North Devon, and I now live in Northeast England. And I'm not moving south ever again. What's wrong with the south? I just prefer the emptiness of the north. Wow, that's a very diplomatic answer. A question to Anne,

when you start planning your next novel, do you know who, how, why and where the murders will take place before you start writing? That's from Jane W. No, I don't know any of those things. So I don't start with any plan or plot. Because they're recurring characters, I know a lot about the characters, about the detective characters.

But no, I just write like a reader. I think because for those 20 years I was being published but having no success it had to be fun and I would see no fun at all if I knew how it was going to end what's the point of writing it and are you a very fluent writer so you can literally sit down and it just it it just comes along I know that some writers write in blocks. No, it does. It just seems to come as if I'm reading.

So I'll write the first scene, and then I need to know what's going to happen next. So I write the next scene, and I carry on and about halfway through, I've got some sort of inkling where I'm going with it, but only as you would if you were a reader. Rather like when you were writing about the conservationist. Yes.

Suddenly you've got a detective coming in. That's right, yeah. And thank goodness she did. Otherwise we could have just sitting in the shower. And are you writing every day? Not while I'm touring, but if I'm at home, yes, I write. And I write get up very early, and that's my best time to work. Is that before 9 o'clock?

Because I've spoken to some writers who get up at 5 and write until breakfast. Yeah, I've lived on islands, so I like to know which way the wind's blowing. So I'm usually awake for the shipping forecast at 20 past 5. OK, and you're writing by 6? Yeah, lots of tea. Yeah.

And it's really my jam-less. Because Brenda, what you were saying about the ensemble nature of your work, one of the things you liked about acting was suddenly being part of this whole cast and crew. I mean, the writer's life is, I would imagine it to be quite a lonely life but do you enjoy this when you're... Yeah this is a nice contrast isn't it to come out and you know Brenda I've known Brenda now for

such a long time and the chance to do something with her is always such great fun so it was a great, the last time I met you was at the wrap party, wasn't it? That was a very emotional evening. That was at the end of the very last day of filming. Although it's solitary when you're writing, I don't suppose you feel that with all these characters. No, I love it. I love that it's the only time I'm actually

in control of my own world. And we're all writing. And, Brenda, do you like that contrast of when you've finished on a series or a film or whatever, that you can just leave that particular kind of world behind? My husband always says that my body gets home a month before my head because I am so wrapped up in it when I'm working, because, I mean, on a normal working day, you're 12 hours in front of the camera.

That's beside makeup, costume. Actually, the journey getting there and going home, and then once having got home, I've got to bone up on what's happening tomorrow, and I might make a few little edits if I think It's appropriate and send them to the editor. And so it's all consuming And you're in pretty well every scene. Yeah, there's no no rest even even when you're on set Yeah, so it's really all I think about while I'm on the job. Yes

It's really all I think about while I'm on the job. Yes. We don't really know how old Vera is, do we? She's on the job. I made a decision, unlike Ian Rankin, who was in the green room earlier, that I wasn't going to aid Vera in real time. Right. I learned from him that it would probably be a mistake.

Because he's having to bring Rebus back as a very, very elderly consultant or in prison here. Right, OK. So I mean, is there a camaraderie between the crime writers then? You do speak to each other. Oh, yeah. We get on really well.

So there are solely crime-based literature festivals now. Harrogate's the biggest one, but there's one in Scotland. And we've got a lovely little one in Whitley Bay. If anybody would like to come, check out Bay Tales. Check out the Bay Tales website. We'd love to see you. It's a great, great day out. So it's not sinister, a gathering of crime writers? Are you sure, Anne? It is. I think that the people at Harrogate say it's the only literature festival where the green room is always empty

because the writers are in the bar with everybody else. I know it's supposed to be true that it's writers of romance who are at each other's throats the whole time, whereas crime writers are quite nice to each other. Yeah, we get out all our aggression on the page Thank goodness for that Do you like the more macabre type of crime novels? Jane and I often talk about this on the podcast that

Actually, both of us find it incredibly difficult, especially as we get older, to read the very visceral hurt, often done to women, actually, in detective novels, where it is there to shock the reader, there is an element of titillation about it. I mean, personally, I just have to put a book down if I come across scenes like that. But amongst the crime writing fraternity Is there a kind of a slight demarcation if that's what you get off on? I think we we can respect each other's work without wanting to write that way

So my books really doesn't matter that the murder isn't the most important bit It's about I don't know families and what hold them together And what breaks them up and communities will what bring them together and break them up and the the the murder mystery element is Gives me the structure to look at those things because I'm so hopeless at plotting I think I'm quite good at character I can get I'm quite good at creating interesting characters, but you can't just have a bunch of people sitting around in a room chatting. What, like this? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But we made a living out of it, Anne. But kill one of them off. And then I've got a plot. Then I've got a structure. I've got something to hold me up. I don't have to worry about the plotter.

You know, you have a limited number of suspects. You have a murderer, and you have a resolution. That suspects you have a murderer and you have a resolution that's grand So I can focus on the bits that I like writing about right? Who's the French? Detective is short Poirot no Belgian sorry, no There's a trilogy of books that I read last year. They were so gruesome really really I read all three I did read all three. I thought surely the next one's not gonna be

But and the third But do you mind reading that good? No, no, not really. I was just amazed that It was so graphic. Yeah. I mean, there was one that both of us read for work that was about a parasite being implanted in a woman's skull and scalp and all kind of flesh-eating stuff and whatever. And I'm bewildered. I'm just bewildered. Yeah, this was all crimes against women. Yes. This trilogy I'm bewildered. I'm just bewildered. Yeah, this is all crimes against women. Yes this trilogy. I'm talking about I find it so disturbing because obviously that you know the statistics in real life bear out that you know women are Taking the brunt of male violence. Let's not go there because this is such a happy. Let's have a jolly question

Well, actually this is a good question. Is there a police advisor for the show? Is there a what? police advisor for the show? Is there a what police advisor for the show? There's a forensics advisor and I'm sure there are yeah, I'm sure that before I even see the script They'd have gone through all that. Yeah, I think Helen Pepper still works with you doesn't she and she was a Senior crime scene manager with County Durham police and now she teaches on the policing course in Teesside University And she's brilliant. She's a good friend, but she's she's in one one of the chapters in this Vera Grumbles because she wishes that police officers spent less time in university and more time out meeting real people.

And Helen was very upset about that. And she said, yes, they do both, actually. They do placements in things like children's homes and with charities. But their students also learn about the things that they need to know, like childhood trauma. And sometimes they'll have an asylum seeker coming in and chatting to the police officers

about what's brought them there. And I think they've got a tame guy who used to be a doctor in Syria coming in and chatting. So I think that's really in. I want to put that right in the next book, that the things that the police officers are learning in university are really, really useful. And I'm glad that they're doing university courses now. And do you ever slightly rue the fact that there is now so much technology in the world

and that, you know, an awful lot of plots can be decided or twisted or whatever by the triangulation of a mobile phone signal and stuff that actually isn't necessarily a really good human brain in policing working stuff out. It's you know the IP address tells you something or the mobile phone message tells you something. Well that's good isn't it? Well I mean it's good in real life because it's sold in a lot of crime. I think it's quite interesting in fiction as well, if you want to do it. And if you don't, there are lots of bits in Northumberland and Shetland where you don't get very good

phone reception. So true. Oh, no, Margan. You're really not. You actually, I mean, there's no way, then, that you could set a crime story in Cheltenham. No, because I don't know it well enough. I could set a crime story in Cheltenham? No, because I don't know it well enough. I could set a short story in Cheltenham. I write short stories like postcards

because if you go to somewhere new, I've written a short story set in Tanger in Tanzania and one in Alaska because you go and you get that first hit of a new place, it really hits you doesn't it, the smells of the sites and you're really excited hit of a new place, you know, it really hits you, doesn't it, the smells and the sights, and you're really excited by it. And that's what you need for a short story, that first immediate response to somewhere. But I don't... I need to get under the skin of a place before I can write a novel about it.

OK. I think Cheltenham is a place tumbling with possibilities. I really do. I'm sure the audience agree. LAUGHTER Well, they're being a bit silent, but then this is a... This is a place associated with discretion in some ways, I know. I know, it would be seething underneath, wouldn't it? A hotbed of whatever. Brenda, what are you working on next?

What's on your slate coming up? Well, since I finished Vera a couple of months ago, I've made a film with Paul Matthew Williams and sort of a two-hander with Amanda Reisbrough. Oh, brilliant. Not that you're not, of course. Andrea Reisbrough. Andrea Reisbrough. Yeah, she's a fantastic... Oh, she's wonderful. And is this a contemporary...? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Is that... What is that, mother and daughter, or...?

No, no, no, it's an unlikely friendship. Oh. Right. And is that a cinematic release? Yes, I think so. Yeah. Not sure, to tell you the truth. I think so. LAUGHTER It was going to be... I'd only been home a few days from Vera, and I thought, that's it, I'm not going to do anything for a while.

And the phone goes, oh Brenda, Vanessa Redgrave's dropped out of a film that's meant to start next week. They're asking will you do it? I said, no, no, I'm too tired. And they said, will you just read it? I said, oh come on then. And I liked it so I did it. OK. Did they really mention the person who couldn't do it before they asked you to do it? Yes. Showbiz is brutal, isn't it? Slightly tactless.

I think they must, they might have thought it might sway me a bit, because if she was going to do it, it must be good. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. And then the both of us are off to Iceland. Iceland, yes. We are going on a jolly. Are you? Holiday together or work jolly?

No, work. Definitely work. Definitely work. Okay. It's called Iceland Noir. Iceland Noir. We've been invited to go. Okay.

Well, that will be brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. It's such a pleasure to meet both of you. I think Jane and I have such a lovely job, a really lovely job, and it enables us to meet a lot of people. But I think you are absolutely at the top of our list. We're a bit star-struck by you. You've not disappointed at all.

I know that the audience have been enthralled by everything that you've had to say. Thank you for your lovely questions. Thank you. Thank you. APPLAUSE And don't forget to buy the book, obviously. Well, look, I'm slightly biased.

Obviously, Anne's sitting with us. But I think this is one... Don't you think it's one of the best fears? I think it is one of the best fears and it's so difficult to say that and for people to think that we're telling the truth, you know, but we absolutely are. I think it's a cracker. It's wonderful, isn't it? Yes, a real cracker. I think it's got depth, it's got layers to it, it's got superb plots. And a great new character.

Yes, absolutely. So it takes the reader on. So it's really wonderful, really wonderful. What a treat to meet you both. Thank you very much. Thank you. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's

the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.