Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Livid in a formal way (with Mary Robinson)

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

Happy Monday! Jane's been to the blood 'doning' centre, there's a loud person in Fi's tummy, Dora's missed the litter tray, and Nancy's been given a fancy manicure... welcome, enjoy! Plus, first female president of Ireland Mary Robinson discusses the documentary about her life ‘Mrs. Robinson’. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

All night long. Michelle, I love that. Because that was something that used to concern me. All night long. I used to think, surely not all night. I mean, I will need to sleep. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture, but when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween.

Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Krugshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. acast.com. This episode of Off Air is sponsored by Wild Frontiers Travel. Sophie, tell me, where's on your travel bucket list? Well, I would really like to go to much emptier places because I live in the heart of a beating city so I think Mongolia.

Well, with Wild Frontiers Travel, you'll see more with those who know the way. Want to go off the beaten track and away from all the tourist crowds? You got it. From wine tastings in Georgia to epic journeys along the Silk Road, Wild Frontiers provide unforgettable experiences in some of the most incredible places on earth. What's more, with everything taken care of by the experts, you'll have the freedom to take it all in and the freedom to never stop seeking. So whether you want to travel solo or on one of their small group tours or with family

or friends on a private tailor-made trip, you can visit wildfrontierstravel.com. Well greetings people, it is a day when the masculine energy of the combined forces of politics, technology and chasing money, they all form a great big blob sailing across our horizon and it's a day to just recalibrate some things, isn't it? Yeah, do you know what? I put myself through at the weekend and I couldn't finish it and I will give a small bar of chocolate to any woman who does manage to finish it. I tried to listen to the Joe Rogan podcast with Mark Zuckerberg because I just thought I've got to educate myself. You certainly do. Yeah, yes. And it's nearly three hours long.

It is nearly three hours long and I was, yeah, I just, I couldn't complete it. Please let me know if you are male or female and you have completed it and you can tell me why that is such a successful podcast. Look, it probably isn't aimed at me. I think in its infancy the episodes weren't quite as long. Right. If we can cast our mind back to a time before podcasts like this, where it probably was really ear-opening and wonderful to be able to hear an uninterrupted conversation.

Oh yeah and I get the beauty of that. Yeah, so I think when he was building up what is now a Joe Rogan force, it's a kind of Joe Rogan planet, isn't it? I think he provided, that's my stomach, I do apologise, a really interesting... Who's trapped in there? Do you know what? Whoever it is, they've been in there for a while. It's a little person you ate in 1986. Anyway, I think when he started it, it might have been slightly less bombastic and egotistical

than it has become because he definitely, definitely has lent into his own self. Has he been on a journey in pursuit of money? Do you know what? I think he's been very much on a roundabout, on the Joe Rogan roundabout, just round and round and round and round and round. Not reaching the right exit. It just almost sounds like a parody now don't you think? Well I'd never heard it before.

So I was exposing myself to something completely new which I had been, I'm sure I'd said to people what a load of rubbish! But then I thought to myself on Saturday, you don't know, you literally don't know what you're talking about, just admit it, listen to it. Because I'm interested in Zuckerberg and he has a real impact on our lives let's face it. Whether we like him or not. What's really interesting is that Joe, and look you could certainly make this accusation to me and you can make this criticism of me, Joe Rogan offers no challenge whatsoever, he just lets his guests speak, that's all he does. But I think that's

that was the secret of his success because in a world where you couldn't have an interview without the host interrupting 60 seconds into it, that was the style, wasn't it? And it still is the style of mainstream media. Yeah, we're not in the mainstream anymore. We're totally maverick. But what I would say about it, there were times listening to them talk, it was like I was trapped inside quite a cheap meat product, like a pie, and I just needed to burrow my way out. There was one point where they were talking about their shared interest in very hyper-masculine sports. Not for the likes of you and I, we just do tapestry in our spare moments. But at one point Mark Zuckerberg said that he sometimes shoots a bow and arrow at bowling balls. Why Mark? You know what? And Joe went along with this as though

this wasn't the oddest thing he'd ever heard. So Mark Zuckerberg has three daughters doesn't he? Well it's really interesting his oldest child and I don't know what you think about this his oldest child is only nine and I say only because he hasn't got to the point yet where this is really a problem. Yeah. The world which he has played a part in creating looms, is going to loom very large in his child's, children's lives very soon. So, and I agree with the point you're making and I've always said that when all of those tech bros encounter a child locked in their bedroom that you can't get off a screen watching

dangerous rubbish, their minds will be turned. Because also they've existed in their own bubbles so they will find it difficult to reach out and have their minds changed so at least they will be able to change it all themselves. But Steve Jobs didn't let his kids watch screens, did he? No, no he didn't. He took them away and said they're bad for you. So go figure, peoples. Go figure. Yeah. But honestly, if you have made it to the end of one of those things,

just let me know because, God, look, Fee and I like a ramble, but bloody hell. Yeah. There is a limit. So who did he smoke weed with? Who was that famous one? Oh, that was Elon Musk. That Musk, yeah. Right, okay. So can I just say that the other thing that is probably quite valuable to do at the moment, just, you know, if you're struggling with that whole masculine energy thing, because it is quite weird in our lifetime to have got to this age

and thought that what everybody, every decent person was fighting for, was a similar shaped thing which was equality in the workplace which enables men who don't want to be all full of bluster and bicep to be who they are, not just women, so anyway you know the score, so it can feel a little bit uncomfortable that we're in a place where we're all shaking our heads a lot. But I think it is quite helpful also to just find those things that are worth pursuing at the moment. And I do just want to mention, if anybody wants to look on my Twitter feed, I am still there.

I did put a GoFundMe for female Afghan journalists up there. And if you're just having a moment, you're just having a little bit of a moment. You want to do something. Well, you want to do something. I do think that that is quite a valuable cause because we really do ignore that part of the world at the moment and what's happening there to women and it is only through hearing their stories that we will keep them in our minds and try and effect some change. So if you want to use those funny old platforms to maybe do a tiny bit of good,

then why not pop yourself along there? Worth thinking about, seriously. It is. Donald Trump, a lot of people are putting a lot of faith in him, apparently. So look, who knows? If he does do good stuff, we'll be probably not the first, but we will acknowledge it. Well, he's made these huge promises though, Jane, and you can completely understand why that's appealing. I mean, who wouldn't want to prevent World War Three? Who wouldn't want their economy to be strong enough to take all of the knocks? Who wouldn't want natural

resources to be recognised? I mean, I can understand why you can say all of those things and be appealing. Let's not be nogginy about that. Well, I'm just glad we're getting free speech back, Free. With all the things we can't say anymore, we're going to be able to say. What would you most like to say? Well, this is the issue. You suddenly think, what is it I'm being stopped from saying that I am really, really desperate to say? I tell you what was quite good last night, the new Martin Clune's drama. Did you see it?

But somebody described that. The accent was a little bit. As Britain's Breaking Bad. I just thought I don't want to see Breaking Bad set in Scunthorpe. No, it's not set in Scunthorpe. It's set, this is why I like to actually, it's set in a part of the world that I don't think gets enough attention, the English-Welsh border. And it's quite a dramatic and occasionally, well you and I have been to the Hay on Wire Literary Festival, we've lived our lives, we have lived our lives, bandit country out there. So yeah, I'm gonna stick with it.

Right, let's just focus our mind on jollier matters. I grew up in a small village in Ireland, writes Michelle. In the last year of primary school, we were a bit older than in the UK, 12 or 13, we had the talk. It came from the head nun, Sister Margaret. Oh, by the way, our big guest today is the former Irish president, Mary Robinson. It's almost produced this podcast, isn't it? Sister Margaret telling us about sex was bad enough, but all the parents were invited along as well.

Now, that is, I did not know that happened. It was, remembers Michelle, totally mortifying. After the video, my one main memory of the night was that when it came to the Q&A section, we were allowed to write anonymous notes to be read out. One question was, did couples ever really make love all night through? All night. Love. Michelle, I night through? All night long. Michelle, I love that because that was something that used to concern me. All night long.

I used to think, surely not all night. I mean, I will need to sleep. Is that why daddy's tired? Oh, please. God. Yeah, Michelle, thank you very much. As we all know, everyone makes love all night long. Every night. Every single night. Oh dear. It's such a good question. It is, isn't it? Touch me in the morning. No, get off! Sorry. Exactly. Debbie is in Chichester. Gratitude and shit is the title of her email. I've been listening to you for many years, you've single-handedly been responsible for enabling a nighttime

routine for me. I love nothing more than getting into bed before 10pm to listen to the latest collection of thoughts, letters and laughs rock and roll. But we're both with you there. Listen, I'm there. 10 to 10. I'm usually in bed. And good thing too. Debbie says I'm inspired to write following the correspondent who talked about the love she has for her children who are neurodiverse and her honesty at how challenging life was. My heart goes out to her and I'm inspired by her strength. I'm reminded that the cards we are dealt shape our lives.

Why do some of us seem to have it easier than others? Well, I mean, that is just the question of all of our lives, isn't it Debbie? On a lighter note, isn't it a joy to pick up the dog shit in the garden on a frosty day? Debbie, I'm with you. There's a slight change of mood there, isn't there, in the podcast? But I love it, in the email. I love it though. I think it's a perfectly natural progression, macro and micro. Along those lines, working today at my home office, my partner Dave banged on my window

and couldn't wait to share his excitement about the firmest shit our dog Dallas has ever done. Credit to the raw meat it had the day before, a new regime we're just starting. Hoping my lovely friends Vanessa and Sarah are listening in as I've often threatened to write in when I had something interesting to say. So hello Vanessa, hello Sarah, Debbie I'm

so with you on that. There is a sheer joy in just being able to wander around the garden and it's all ready-firmed for you. Well little victories, P. Exactly. To track the challenging world. I take them where I can these days, Jay. Listen, I know, don't we all. I'm sorry to say that Dora missed the litter tray yesterday with one of her offerings and I had to get out that special spray which by the way works, I mean you can

find it in all the places where you buy stuff, but it's just purely to get rid of the smells that cats tend to leave behind. And does it really work? So it neutralises? Absolutely, yes it's superb. Okay I might take the name of that off you because I could do with that. Right okay well honestly I can't recommend it highly enough. I've just bought Nancy a diamond tipped nail grinder, Jane. It's a thing of absolute extraordinary wonder. Right, and what, I don't even know where it goes. Sorry, Fie, I'm such a novice, I'm in the foothills of...

On her nails. So instead of having to chop them off with a great big, like, secateurs, which is very difficult and I don't like doing it actually. I can't even know you had to do that. I can't quite get the purchase. But this nail grinder, it just you know it's like a little wheel thing that goes round and round and round. It's got diamonds in it apparently. And you just kind of file it down. You just file in it and it files them down. So I gave Nancy a manicure last night and she was in heaven. It kind of sent her to a funny place. You just file in it and it files down. So I gave Nancy a manicure last night and she was in heaven. It kind of sent her to a funny place.

You can put that on the socials. Did it indeed. In about, I don't know, 350 years time, someone will take that to Antiques Roadshow and someone in a revolving bow tie or whatever they're wearing in the future. I think you'll find it'll be always good. Quite possibly. We'll value it. What do you have anything that you'll be able to take to the Antiques Roadshow? I often think about it because I am a big fan as I've said very frequently a big fan of Call the Midwife so I tune in to the end of Antiques Roadshow. Which is always the ultimate how much? Yes and

it was I think it was a lady who very unexpectedly got 40 grand valuation of admittedly quite an attractive it was a sort of naked water carrying nymph or something. It was quite quite nice and I had exactly that thought that's very weird that you mentioned it. What would I take? I don't have anything. I think if people ever need to understand Britain better, and particularly the English, I'm going to excuse the Scottish, Irish and Welsh from this stereotype, there is no other sound on earth that sums up the schadenfreude of our class and wealth system than the sharp intake of breath that the crowd give when someone's got a high valuation. So if somebody goes, you know,

one of your twirling bow tie waistcoated, pants-nay wearing gentlemen says with an affected pause £100,000, there is a... which isn't wishing that person well at all. Oh no. They're livid, but in a very formal and decent way. And it's always very much more respectable when that kind of reaction comes from someone in a quite high quality John Lewis waterproof garment. You know, it's fine, isn't it? But the lady, that's quite funny because the valuer person who was actually rather a young man and definitely knew his onions and his nymph-like statuettes told her that quite sternly told her that this is something that you would you would keep the value is sort of irrelevant it was

something that you were going to hand on to a future generation but I the lady who seemed very nice you could see that she was thinking I'll just go on a bloody cruise and sod the kids. You're right, it is when they say oh no we're going to keep it in the family. Why? You're not. I think somebody said to me over Christmas, she was a very nice friend, a neighbour actually, said something at a party I was like you know what it's like when you inherit furniture she said and I just thought no I don't because I won't who was that politician Michael Heseltine that's right so it was Alan

Clark wasn't it he said it was also a Tory yes yeah so Alan Clark said of Michael Heseltine he's the kind of man who buys his own furniture ultimate put down and that also going along with what you were saying about Antiques Roadshow and that English reaction, that also tells you quite a lot about the way Britain still operates to a degree. We've improved marginally, but yeah, it's still there. But also, Jane, I wouldn't want to inherit my parents' furniture. My mum's got a sofa, which is so uncomfortable. When we go and visit we would rather sit on the floor. She's devoted to it and it's been there a long time I suppose that that provides its own sense

of comfort. I've got an IKEA chair that I put together with an Alan Key and following the instructions. Well nobody should sit on that. Well exactly, so just out of sheer spite I think I might bequeath that to somebody. I don't want it. I'd like some of, I'd like any used technology that you didn't give precautions we can take against infection. This comes in from Alex. Masking and vaccination being the most obvious, but can we also stop blowing out candles on the top of cakes? Every time I see this now it makes me shudder, and if I have to eat the cake I always leave the icing. Madness. I've just not thought about that, Alex, and of course you're right, that's revolting, isn't it? Is that hugely risky? Well yes, I mean you just... especially if... I mean children can be contaminated, can't they? Say that again. Little perishes.

If you've got a kids' party and they have to do kind of four goes at blowing out the cake and everyone joins in, that is a petri dish, isn't it? I suppose it is. Yeah. On an entirely unrelated but still sticking very loosely to the topic of health, I did actually go to the blood donning centre on the weekend. Doning? Doning. What's it called? Donating. Donating. That's easy because I've lost blood in the last 48 hours. They've taken a bit too much. I'm a little bit depleted intellectually. But just to say that... So can I just stop you there? Because when they phoned me to ask me if I would do it, because they were running very low on... They are desperate

at the moment. But the first available abitement that they gave me was for May. So why have you just walked straight in? Why is your blood better than mine? Well that's very odd. I can't explain that because you're right, they rang me actually. I mean to be honest with you, I think I mentioned it last week. I didn't really have much intention of doing anything about it. I just wanted to make myself sound really nice by discussing it as a topic. And then a lady rang me. I was doing some ironing on Friday morning and she rang up and she just said right, well we said we were going to ring you and we are going to ring you and there are appointments available at your local shopping centre. and there was one for the next morning

and I just thought well I wasn't doing anything so how could I... They got you. They absolutely got me and by the way I should say that there was a, no pun intended, a steady trickle of people coming into the centre. It's a good pun. Thank you and I was by some margin the oldest person there. So huge credit to the people in their 20s. They were mostly in their 20s who were turning up quite early on a Saturday morning to give blood. I just think sometimes you

just got to acknowledge that, you know, there is a certain amount of carping about younger people. Well, they were certainly turning up and there weren't many middle-aged people. And what kind of biscuits did you have? I had a rich shorty. A rich shorty, so shortbread? Appropriately. OK, that's lovely. And a nice cup of tea? I had squash.

And did you feel a bit dizzy afterwards? No. OK, you see that's good to know because I think a lot of people, they think that they might feel a bit wibbly wobbly afterwards. Yeah, no, I didn't have it. They were very, you absolutely had to, you were asked several times, or I was asked several times whether I'd had breakfast, and I don't miss breakfast ever, so that wouldn't have been an issue for me. I think it's probably quite unwise to do it if you're not a breakfast eater. You know, and I think I'd also eaten a big meal the night before, so I was probably absolutely primed up for it.

But anyway, well worth doing, as we all know, and they send a very nice email the next morning which just makes you feel, well you know if I've done nothing else constructive over the last week, I've done that. Yeah, it's a very good thing to do. Well done to everybody who made the operation so slick. Okay, and if anyone's listening and you're thinking I'm going to phone that other one and say move your appointment forward to May, please don't, it's in there for May. She's looking forward to it already. It's in the diary. It's in the diary. I'll go. Don't worry.

Do you know what I think it might have been because it's plasma as well as blood. Oh, I see. Yes, I'm only blood. I'm O positive. Very common. Well, don't let anybody else say that. Here's Dave, who's aged 82 and three quarters. Well, Dave, you're very welcome. I too have been languishing in southwest France for the last 38 years. Here's Dave who's aged 82 and three quarters. Well, Dave, you're very welcome. I too have been languishing in southwest France for the last 38 years, although working full time for 25 of them.

Often in winter, in pouring rain, sometimes snow, sharing the motorway with the thousands of heavy lorries going down to Spain and Portugal for an hour and a half, five days a week. So it's not like being on holiday all the time, although it obviously does have its good side. About the French letters, did you know that the French called them which made me think of the false friends. You probably know that in the US you shouldn't ask anybody. You shouldn't ask if anyone has a rubber when what you need is an eraser. And in France, don't ask if la confiture contient des preservatives. Does the jam contain preservatives?

Dave is a big fan of our podcasts. And before we ended the last one, he went back and listened to all of the previous ones. Oh, God. You didn't need to do that. Because apart from anything else, Dave, the sound quality was just terrible. We used to sit outside, shouting, don't we? Yeah, brings it all back. Very weird. And is it possible to just live in the south, is it the southwest of France?

It is in southwest France. Without just languishing seems to be something that people do down there. Well, that's because you said languishing, didn't you? Did I? Did I? In the previous episode. Did I say it in an accusatory way? Yes. Oh I see. Well I don't mean it. It's just that something about that, you imagine the

lifestyle lends itself to languishing. Oh I would very much hope so. I mean it's not possible to languish in Ramsgate is it? I don't know. I don't want to burst the bubble of France. I mean they do, you know, they seem to be enjoying their baguettes, making their unpasteurized fromage, going to their jobs, which are all for the government aren't they? All for the government? Yeah. Yes, which is that like big government is it? Well there is... Because I against all that, you see, I want my freedom. I think there is some astonishing statistic that 40% of people who work in France work for France. Okay.

Then it's a way of making it happen, isn't it? Because the more people work, the more taxes you pay. So you might as well employ them all in the government. It's just, it goes on eating itself doesn't it? Well they do have very long lunch breaks as well. I don't know if they do anymore. Oh don't they? No. Do you know what I'm interested by the siesta, maybe people who are languishing on the continent can inform us about this. So is it really still a thing anywhere in mainland Europe? So if you're working in a great big Zara somewhere in,

let's just say Lisbon or Seville or Marseille, that shop's not shutting. Well, they'll say, can't not this time of year. You can't think it's two o'clock, it's 13 Celsius, I need a kip. It's just nonsense. But does the, because the big cities are all operating on our kind of hours, does that have a knock-on effect that in smaller towns the siesta has kind of died a little bit? And also most people just can't afford to live close to where they work. That's just a good point as well. I mean I wouldn't be able to get home in time to have everything to come back.

And I live quite close. Well I just couldn't do it. No. Right, we've got the one about boxes. Do you want to do that? Because I feel like I've read too much today. That's the magician's trick. Right, this is from Anonymous.

Your recent talk about sex education sparked a memory about what we were taught at our all-girls school. We were told absolutely not to let anyone be intimate with us unless they had clean hands. And whilst now, as an adult, I'm totally on board with expecting a basic standard of hygiene. As a group of 14-year-old girls, we were absolutely baffled

as to how we were meant to interrupt all the snogging and send boys off to wash their hands. But the most vivid memory was when, alongside the model penises, the PSHE teacher produced a number of large cardboard boxes. She said how important it was that we knew how to put a condom on in the dark. Again, a valid requirement, but I can't help but feel something went awry in the delivery of this lesson. In each of the closed boxes was a model penis and on either side side two small holes were cut out.

We were all told to put our hands in the box using these holes and we were not allowed to leave the classroom until we all had successfully put on a condom inside the box. I can't help but be reminded of some kind of bizarre magic trick. See you on the 8th for a much needed night away from the toddler. I've told my other half it's very important I leave about midday. Well done you. I live an hour and a half away says rather cheeky anonymous but we like your thinking. We certainly do.

I can't believe that. It just feels wrong that it just feels wrong. I don't know why. I mean it's very sensible. If that had happened to me with my incredibly poor motor skills, I'd still be in that classroom. I would never have left. They would have failed you. Imagine that sense of you left school having failed prophylactic administration. You can pop that with your A-level your O levels and whatever else you got.

We should say that our other big guest has been announced. We couldn't announce it sooner because we just haven't verified it. We love that. Showbiz. Anabel Croft is joining us on the Tuesday night. I think she's terrific, Jane. She's a really interesting person for any number of reasons and a hugely successful sporting person. I think she's one of those, I think she's one of the great sportswomen who then became a really brilliant broadcaster. She's such a good commentator on tennis and commenter. Commentator. Commentator, yeah, really. I see I'm all at sea. I just want my freedom back and if

only I could get it back I'd be alright. So we're really delighted to have her, yes we know her from Strictly, she also has been through a great deal in her personal life in the last couple of years so I think she's going to be a really interesting guest on the Tuesday at the Barbican. So we look forward to seeing you if you're coming to that. And it's Jo Brand at the Barbican on the Saturday night. And I think if anybody wants to meet a little earlier and tell their partners that actually it's a whole afternoon show, it's like a MAGA rally. And feel free to do that.

We'll get there slightly early ourselves just in order to do some deep breathing and to tuck into our rider snacks, which are salt and vinegar crisps. You always like, you ask for a glass of champagne, don't you? Well, I do. Because you can take the girl out of Crosby. Yeah, but you really can't. You're right. Would you be willing to do that performance in a MAGA Daddy's Home T-shirt?

No. Okay, I just thought I'd ask. Would you? No. But I just thought I'd ask no but I just thought I'd check in just in case yeah we've got so much to talk about I'm I'm really looking forward to it the second half of the show we always do questions and you can chuck anything out and we turn the house lights up and it's less about us performing at you and more about us all having a bit of a chat and it'll be

lovely. So I really hope you can come. Yeah. And if you seriously, men are very welcome. Very welcome indeed. Very welcome. We like your masculine energy. Come on. Get it out there. Come on, tigers. I'm Jesse Kirkshank and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture, but when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills After Show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what

my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Krugshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. acast.com. Let's move on, mercifully, to our big guest and a good person to have with us today because, let's face it, Trump's not to everyone's taste but he is to some people's, something we have to bear in mind and will continue to bear in mind through gritted teeth. Just introduce the guest, Jane. Now no woman has yet assumed the office of President of the United States but Mary Robinson is not a bad guest for this afternoon, the first female President of

the Republic of Ireland. A former lawyer, she was elected in 1990, she served in that position for seven years, going on to be a very outspoken UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. Now Mary is making, has made, a feature-length documentary about her life. It is called Mrs Robinson. And in this documentary, I have to say quite unusually for such a high profile and much respected and much liked politician she admits she has made mistakes. She actually looks at the camera and says I got that wrong. The film is also really interesting because it shows just how much her country of Ireland has changed in the course of her lifetime. So I asked Mary to take us back to

her middle class upbringing in County Mayo. I was the only girl wedged between these four brothers, two older and two younger, and my parents, both medical doctors, kept saying to me, Mary you have the same opportunities as your brothers, but it wasn't true. It wasn't even true, you know, for example they could be altar boys, those sorts of things, an older girl, and we were a very religious family. I had to wear this scarf at weekly mass and so on. And I knew very early on that women couldn't do the same things in Ireland that men could do and that men had more opportunities and were expected to be in key roles in our society. So part of my growing up was to have this deep sense of injustice that gave me a sense of justice, if I can put it that way. And I wanted to make the world the way my parents said it

was. When we look back to a time not so long ago in Ireland where women had no access to contraception, no abortion, no divorce, and families routinely would have 11 or 12 children, these were exceptionally difficult times weren't they? And really not that long ago. They were and it isn't that long ago and people have kind of forgotten. So I agree with you. I think the film does show a particular social history that shows how Ireland opened up gradually and made changes over time. And there were a lot of people involved that also had a role to play at different stages. I'm actually very proud of where Ireland has come to know. I'm worried about the fact that you can't presume that this will continue

in the sense that look at the United States at the moment, where women's rights in a number of states have gone backwards really dramatically and rather quickly. Well, you make that point in the film that this is a very interesting and frankly terrifying time in history, let's just own it, but Ireland has made such strides and who would have thought fifty years ago that Ireland would be this progressive nation and the US would be going, as you say, seemingly in the opposite direction. Yes, it's strange to be aware of that as the film is being made. If there was to be another Trump presidency, this would be really very worrying and we're just about to face into that. Do you speak up and speak out about that? I've always spoken up about issues that matter.

But when you were at the UN and you were there, the High Representative for Refugees, is that right? Yeah, for human rights, High Commissioner for Human Rights. Right, and you travelled the world, you spoke out then, and to be blunt about it, the Americans didn't like it much, did they? Well, what I was trying to do was approach human rights in a different way globally, if I could put it that way, not to politicize it. I made six working visits to China, and I had in mind the rights of the Chinese people. And I gave China credit for what it had done

in taking all the whole sections of its population out of poverty, which means promoting economic and social rights to education, to health, for example. But I was then very strict on what I was hearing from a whole range of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch and Chinese human rights groups about the lack of civil and political rights. And I was tough on that. And actually the Chinese respected the approach that I

adopted. I know that because it wasn't being politicised and I was giving them credit where it was due. And I would do the same with any country. Every country has human rights problems. The context for every country is different. You deal with the country in its reality. You actually took some persuading to run for president of Ireland, didn't you? You've been highly successful in education and in the law and when the idea was put to you, your immediate reaction was, well, why would I? What changed your mind? The presidency in Ireland before that, which had been six men, my six was, well, why would I? What changed your mind?

The presidency in Ireland before that, which had been six men, my six predecessors, had really been seen as almost a retirement post. Very high office, very much with red carpet and bans in Ireland itself and abroad state visits that people knew about, but they were, you know, visits at a very high level that wasn't very relevant somehow. And I was very busy in my law practice. I had work in Ireland with a Center for European Law working with my husband, in fact, where we were preparing various sectors of the Irish economy for the European Union, which we in fact, where we were preparing various sectors of the Irish economy for the European Union, which we had joined, but we needed to understand the rules. And I was enjoying this and we had three children. And it was when I read the oath of office,

which my husband persuaded me to do at lunch the day of the invitation that I wasn't enthusiastic about, I saw that actually somebody elected by the people, by all of the people in a general election, would have a separate role outside politics that could work at local level, that could work at national level, and that could work at global level. And I became quite excited about making that case for whoever would become president, like a British athlete. Because when I was nominated, I was the 101 outsider, you know, a no-hoper, as they say. But gradually people liked the way that I spoke, but also liked what I learned about what was happening in Ireland at that time. You were very careful when you were president to do difficult stuff,

including a visit to Buckingham Palace where you had tea with the Queen, and then you went to Northern Ireland and that was hugely significant wasn't it? It was at the time. I had actually made other non-contentious visits to different parts of Northern Ireland, including parts of Belfast, but I was increasingly being invited to West Belfast, Republican, IRA dominated West Belfast. And I felt it was important for the communities there to go. The Irish government didn't want me to go. The British government certainly didn't want me to go. But I felt, you know, those communities need recognition for the work they're doing.

And I didn't regret it for a moment. And I do remember as the film showed, the sense of excitement, the sense of almost breathing new air because of recognition and because I understood the love of language, the love of culture, the love of a sense of identity which was Republican, not part of the United Kingdom. In my part of Ireland where I'd grown up, we didn't care enough about the people in

Royal Ireland and I had made it clear in my inauguration that I wanted to try to change that at a level outside politics, at a people to people level. Yeah. Is it, or how significant has it been for you that your husband, Nick, who's obviously a great support to you, is a Protestant? It wasn't really the significant thing for my parents when they didn't come to husband Nick, who's obviously a great support to you, is a Protestant. It wasn't really the significant thing for my parents when they didn't come to the wedding. It was a factor if you like. But my husband was a cartoonist when we married. My parents had me on a big pedestal. I was a senator, I was a professor, and I was practicing law.

And they were so proud of me. Nobody was good enough for me. You know, there is a problem of over love and both my beloved parents, because we reconciled very quickly once we married. It's interesting to me that there's footage of the immediate reaction to your election as president and you'd have to have a heart of stone not to be moved by it and by the images of little girls. I think there's one little girl that is interviewed and she's asked who you are and she says you know in a sort of piping little voice she's the president and honestly at that point I welled up because you just think yeah you can't be what you don't see and this is important.

Yes and it was more than just a woman though that was really significant. It was also somebody with progressive more left-wing policies you know and that was so unusual because the presidency had been really a fear and a fall dominated office from the beginning with my six predecessors. And our politics was very pro the Catholic Church, very pro the status quo. And this was such a change. I mean, what I remember was the number of people who told me then and who tell me now, when you were elected, I cried. It was a deeply, deeply emotional moment. And I realized I was somehow symbolizing the hopes of so many, the hopes of those who'd had to leave Ireland because of their sexual orientation or because of conflict or because of, and, you know, I put a light on the window of our official residence and it took on the life of its own. It helped to shape an Irish diaspora

and the policies followed. We now have very good policies and we recognize how valuable it is to our government to have this diaspora that's very committed to us, that loves the country. It's a great advantage to us. But in 1990, we let the emigrants go and we didn't care. My great friend the poet Ivan Boland wrote a poem about the Irish emigrants. We put them out like lamps in the dark. How do you react now then when some people coming to live in Ireland, people who are often in desperate circumstances, are not exactly welcome by everybody? That must be painful for you. Yes, I'm always keen that we remember our own history of the Great Famine in particular in the

1840s when so many people in order to survive had to leave on what were called the coffin ships. Some of them died in transit, but so many went to the United States, to Canada, to Argentina, to the United Kingdom, of course, to Australia and so on. I had been involved as a Senator with a number of the immigrant groups that dealt with these, which is why I prioritized it. I would still want us to think about our own past and the need we had to be able to leave the country in order to live. That's the reality now accentuated, of course, by the climate and nature prices of so many countries in poverty, but particularly in conflict. And we must remember

that. And migration has always been a factor of life. And in many ways, those who migrate are the ones who have a great spirit of being determined to make lives for themselves and send the remittances home to their families, to help the families to survive. So it's a story of courage and resilience as much as anything else. As we speak, it's the week before the inauguration of Donald Trump for the second time. I know that you have misgivings about him. What do you make of, in some ways, the sort of craven attitude of people who once criticized him, who are now apparently falling at

his feet? It's not a pretty spectacle, I'll say that, and it just shows that there will be fewer guardrails, fewer who will stand up to him, and that is worrying. And so it's going to be a bumpy four years, there who will stand up to him, and that is worrying. So it's going to be a bumpy four years, there's no doubt about that. And unfortunately, the oil and gas companies and the large tech companies are aware that the policies will probably favor them, but they won't favor the future of humanity. The next four or five years are going to be very crucial for whether we're going to have a livable world in the future,

because we've got to make enough progress by 2030 to meet the goals we've set to have any prospect of being able to save the 1.5 or return to the 1.5 and stay below 2 degrees Celsius. And you can't negotiate with climate and nature. And that's why one of the things I hope the film will do is show the beginnings of what we call Project Dandelion, which is a women led climate justice movement

with the symbol of the dandelion, which I'm wearing. It's a nature symbol. The dandelion is a flower or many people think of it as a weed. I think of it now as a beautiful flower. It grows on all continents. It's very resilient. It has roots that regenerate the soil and you spread it by blowing. So it's like the light in the window that took a life of its own. I want the magic of the Dandelion to help women leaders to step up at all levels, indigenous, young, grassroots, business, politics, right across the board. We have a different way of leading by and large, and it's a much better way for

the world, but we don't have enough of it in the world. So we really have to step up. Do you think America will ever have a female president? I think they will, but I think it's really tough. I'm sorry that more women don't support a women president, never mind men. I think the women of colour did vote for Kamala Harris in great numbers in canvas for her. Yeah, as they voted for Hillary Clinton too. Yes, but a lot of white women, I think because of this sense of trying to safeguard privilege, if I could put it that way, you know, feeling more a sense of outrage at loss because it's basically it's a loss of privilege. And yes, there are problems of cost of living, there are

problems of inflation and that there were, but in fact, the economy in the United States is doing extremely well by global standards. I hope that among other things, President Trump won't make that worse, both for the American people and for the world generally, with his determination to bring in turrets. Mary Robinson, we thought today that she'd be a good guest, just as an antidote, an alternative view. She was, of course, Irish Irish president, first woman to occupy

that position. Thank you for all of your suggestions on television programs by the way. We're going to do a bit of a roundup of those this week. I was interested to read in the Saturday Times magazine, I didn't know this, that Jeff Bezos has done a deal with Melania Trump, $40 million for her to host a show or allow a reality TV show to be formed around her. I think we're suggesting that it might be a, shall we say, quite a positive spin on the life and times of Melania Trump in that show. I will watch some of that. I'm intrigued by her. Yeah. Jane and Fee at times.radio is our email address. We welcome your thoughts on all topics.

Yes, thank you very much indeed. Have a very good evening, good sleep, good afternoon and good morning. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. I'm Jesse Kirkjank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories Here's a show that we recommend. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on.

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