Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Looking at love from both sides and tripping up the escalator 

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

Life is a roller coaster—it's true... And so is this episode, Jane and Fi chat photo montages, Elon Musk's nan, and Joni Mitchell. Plus, civil rights lawyer Ben Crump and music industry exec Dorothy Carvello discuss Sean “Diddy” Combs, the music industry and Dorothy’s civil lawsuit against Atlantic Records. Get your suggestions in for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I sang, last Christmas I gave you my cat, but the very next day you just gave it back because Dora was being so horrible. Doesn't rhyme properly. I think it was good. It was good. We all want to enjoy food that tastes great and is sourced responsibly. But it's not always easy to know where your favourite foods come from. McDonald's works with more than 23,000 British and Irish farmers to source quality ingredients. Mike Allwood is a dairy farmer from Cheshire who supplies organic milk to McDonald's in the UK for

its teas, coffees and porridge through Arla. We're involved in a network which has been set up by Arla to look at the possibilities for farming regeneratively. One of the things we're doing here is moving our cattle and giving them a fresh piece of grass every day to help regenerate the soil. We're very lucky that we've had a long term relationship with McDonald's and I think often people don't realize how seriously McDonald's take their relationships with farmers. Change a little, change a lot. Find out more about McDonald's Plan for Change on the McDonald's website.

Look at that, isn't that lovely? So you get a script for this podcast, do you? No. Remind me in the email. I've got a stand now. What is that bit of kit you found? Well I think it is for propping up scripts. Oh right, okay. No, it's not for the little thing. It's for the Riverside laptop.

Of course, that makes such a lot of sense. Right, welcome. Which isn't in here. So somebody pinched it. Oh god, I don't know, it's quite possibly. So welcome to our podcast on Tuesday, December the 3rd already. What was in your advent calendar this morning? I'm now opening it at night, I'm afraid. What was in it last night?

It was, actually I don't know, one of the kids opened it for me and just gave me the chocolate. What type in it last night? It was, actually I don't know, one of the kids opened it for me and just gave me the chocolate. What type of chocolate is it? It was... This time of year. This is content. There's an astonishing amount of praline around. I don't like it. I don't need it. Don't put nuts in my chocolate. Go away. No, if I can be... I'm gonna say something something bolder, I'm not that, I'd be happier with just the pictures. Well, then just get just the pictures. I don't even have one, Jane. I bought one for everybody else in the house, including Nancy. I don't have one myself. I tell you what though, the pork scratching one has just gone down so, so well. So, so well.

That's the sophisticate's choice isn't it really? So congratulations to the people behind Oink, that's what it's called. Nothing says Christmas quite like a handful of pork scratchings every morning. What a way to kickstart your day. And we should bear in mind we are almost a month away from what is still called the big day. It is. Oh, I've been sorry because I've been talking into the wrong side of my microphone everybody. Sorry about that. Yeah, there is something about December that allows you to do things like eat pork scratchings before you leave the house. Yeah, because you know, hey, why not? It's what the baby Jesus would have wanted. Now, one of my favourite songs of all time is Charlene's wonderful work,

I've Never Been To Me. And I did say the other day, I'd love to hear from somebody who had indeed been undressed by a king. And here it comes. Here she is. I nearly crashed the car, says Rebecca. You reminded me of my first boyfriend with whom, looking back, I had the most... And the way she's phrased this is, can I just say it's wonderful. With whom, looking back, I had the most, and the way she's phrased this is, can I just say it's wonderful, with whom looking back I had the most beautiful introduction into relations.

That is nice. That is actually lovely, isn't it? And I think it makes an enormous difference if your first relationship is a good one, because then that's the template, isn't it? Yeah, it's what a lovely thing to be able to say and to carry that through life. Can you say that? Actually, yes, I can actually. Oh, well that's good.

I can't, yes, I'm not going to, you know, we don't want to betray too many confidences. But yes, it was absolutely. Oh Jane, we do. I don't think you'll find. He was a very nice man. And back to Rebecca, his surname was King, you see? Yes. And yes, he did do the above.

So she has been undressed by kings or a king. A king. Yeah. Yeah. We don't know what's on, whether you have brothers, whether who else was on it. No, no, no, no, I don't mean that. I actually don't mean that. Anyway, I might also have the answer to your family birthday coincidences. Mine and my sister's birthdays are two years and one day apart in March. When I noted the coincidence to my mum, she replied much to my horror, yes, we always went on holiday in June.

I totally get that, but I still can't quite work out because pregnancies are all kinds of lengths. So although we call it nine months, it's 42 weeks but you know I had one at I think 44 weeks and the other one was at 35 weeks. Oh that's a big difference. Yeah, so you can't kind of guarantee that exactly is it 42 weeks? I'm not getting that wrong. Well when you first go and you know you're pregnant, if you want to go to the doctor to tell the doctor that you're pregnant,

you will be six weeks pregnant. Let's say you've missed a period, it's two weeks since you were supposed to have a period, you'll be six weeks pregnant at that point, won't you? Yes, and that's what they work it. That's how they calculate it. Yeah. So you still couldn't guarantee that everybody was born on the same day, nine months after a celebratory occasion. So the plot thickens and we may never get to the bottom of this,

but somebody somewhere will take it up as their PhD and we'll look forward to hearing from them in 17 years time. I will say, I don't ever, I mean the idea of celebrating, marking Christmas, especially not on Christmas day. Well not Christmas day, it's so tired. God! I mean unless you're really young, I don't think anybody... You just will. And Lida, forget you had that brandy butter. All emotions have been used by the time you go to bed on Christmas day. You've probably just mopped the kitchen floor. Well no, that's just you. Most of us leave the mopping until the next day.

But I'm with you. It seems unlikely. Can I bring in greetings from Denmark Jack? He says, your conversation following Greg Wallace's knobheadery and your comments about how women don't tend to share intimate or private details about their sex lives, whereas blokes do, made me wonder if there is a generational difference at play here. I am one of your, I can only assume, few male listeners in their 20s. I don't have your listening statistics in front of me but I can only assume that we're not your biggest demographic. Well,

Jack, we're always working on this. I have no knowledge of the Wallace story. Having deleted all news apps and podcasts after a certain event at the beginning of November, I can recommend this approach. I'm much happier now. And so I want to make more of a general point, and not about completely inappropriate and sexist comments in the workplace. It is my experience that women of my generation are just as likely to be open, frank and willing to discuss and compare details of their sex lives as my male friends, even when men are present in the group. That's certainly the case when I'm around, although maybe my status as known homosexual, to borrow a ludicrous phrase from before I was born,

offers me some special privilege compared to my straight counterparts. This freedom, together with a complete lack of shame about being, yes, a sexual being, seems to be the natural and excellent consequence of female empowerment and better, although imperfect, gender equality. However, there is always a time and a place for such conversations and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the workplace is not that place. And

the PS is, and this is interesting, and I kind of agree with that Jack, and you know to be honest I'm not party to the conversations of young people, obviously when it's just younger people in the room, but I assume that it is quite a good thing if both sexes can discuss things in equal measure, but I think just in my generation it just didn't happen, so it just feels uncomfortable now. I don't know many women who've managed to make that kind of leap. The PS though, on your enthusiastic use of bloke, the word, what would the equivalent word be to describe a woman and what would your response be to male presenters using it on a podcast listened to mostly by men?

And Jack says, ducking my head below the parapet now. I'm not surprised. Yes, I'd run for the hills mate. But no, but he's a very, he's a knowing and aware man as our Jack because he says apparently there isn't a world shortage of men sharing their opinions with everybody who knew. So I think it's a good point to me. Where did he say he was living? In Denmark. Oh I wonder whether some of that Danish, he sounds like a sensible thinking chap long before he landed in Denmark, but I wonder whether some of those Danish ways are rubbing off on him.

Yeah, Denmark is a very equal society. Well, so we're told. I mean, I'd be interested in hearing more from him about what he thinks it is actually like. It's difficult, isn't it? I take that point about bloke. I'm inclined to say bird, but we probably would find that annoying, wouldn't we? Yeah. I was thinking more wench. Wench? Yeah. It's not... But that, I always think then medieval.

We're back with King Henry VIII and his... But I'm glad that Jack mentioned it, because actually I didn't think that there was very much wrong with bloke. So I'm gonna have a think about that now. Is bloke a loaded term? No, it's often said with affection. He's a nice bloke. Oh, he's a nice bloke. No, that's what I was thinking. But obviously, if you're listening to it and thinking, oh, that's a little bit disparaging. We're always on a learning curve, Jane.

Oh, no, listen, we're always ready to learn. Perhaps you're rather more than me. Oh, it's just because I'm younger. That'll be it. We did, by the way, also get the email about the woman telling us about an experience she'd had at the ideal home exhibition. It was. She was on a wood burning stove stand. Yeah. And we don't feel, legally, I think we'd probably be ill advised to read it out, but we've read it and we take note and thank you for telling us about it. And if there comes a time when we can read it out, then we absolutely will. We'd have

to kind of do a write of reply if we read it out now and we're not gonna we're not gonna do that but it might come full circle you just never know. Disturbing montage of photos on phone with accompanying music did you read this one? Oh yes, go on. I really like this and I think we've touched on it before but it comes in from Marie who is a regular listener and we love hearing from you Marie. You know those portrait memories which pop up totally unannounced on your phone, generally accompanied by some schmaltzy music, do you find them quite disturbing? Yes. I find them very intrusive, says Marie. We were talking about this at work the other day and Beth

who works for us has a very particular set of memories which pop up on her phone. Sockets. Electric sockets. Let's just say Beth is quite anxious and for peace of mind when she leaves for work she goes around photographing all the plugs to make sure she switched them off. It's a very good idea. She's got quite a selection on her phone, steam iron, washing machine, tumble dryer, electric heater, phone charger, all accompanied by... Sweeping strings in the background. Yes, so they do this thing don't they I get set them all of all the time and sometimes they are so inappropriate

because on a serious note they will sometimes contain pictures of people who in the past year have died it's my choice if I want to look at a picture of someone I agree I think they're very who has died this year and suddenly for them to come up you know accompanied by happy music is terrible, absolutely terrible. Is there any way you can stop these things? Well presumably there is, but Marie's example is quite benign and she says actually it was quite relaxing watching each socket picture fade into another and that would be funny and actually one came

up with memories from this year on my phone recently and some of them were absolutely lovely but then there was a time when I had a very big spot right inside my ear which obviously I couldn't see so I tried to photograph it and it came up on the memories and I dropped it off. Lovely. Was it obvious it was your ear? Not really. Right, I mean that is the danger. I mean I'll be absolutely honest and say that I had occasion, I think I might have mentioned it when I had to give some information to the bot at the GP's putches without the patches. I hate things without the patches anyway. And once I'd outlined the issue I needed to consult somebody about even the

bot wrote back and said no images required! I said okay, alright. But the sockets, now this does interest me, it's funny this time of year when it's so dark, I deliberately leave a lamp on in my front room because I... Leave a light on! Exactly that! Who sang that? I can't remember. It's a Brilinda Carlisle. Leave a light on for me!

Yay! I've got such a good voice and it does need more of an airing. No, I like to come home at night, because I'm the first one home and I like to have a light on. I cannot bear to see the house in darkness as I walk down the street. But otherwise I share that. And certainly things like your dryer, you should never leave them on. And so many fires are started by hair irons at the moment.

It's straightening irons because people put them down. Oh my God. And I don't know why they don't make them with an automatic switch off. Some of them are, but not all of them. They really should do, shouldn't they? They really should do, Jane. And do you know what? Just on the subject of tunes that we love, I know I mentioned it yesterday, but I've

got absolutely stuck on a tune by Father John Misty. It's called I Guess Time Just Makes Fools Of Us All. It's eight minutes 45 long, it's like a symphony because it's got so many different parts in it, it's got the most fantastic kind of African drumming bit in it out of nowhere. Father John Misty, what's it called? I Guess Time Just Makes Fools Of Us All. If you want to be cheered up and energised by something, just pop that on in the morning, it is glorious. I don't think the lyrics are particularly, you know, they're not kind of like, hey, hey, life's great. It's not Life is a rollercoaster, which I know is one of your favourite tunes.

But the thing is, life is a rollercoaster. And it's true that time does make fools of us all. Do you know the song that I heard the other day, which I hadn't really, is it Fairport Convention? Where does the time go? I never used, which I hadn't really, is it Fairport Convention, Where Does the Time Go? I never used that song, didn't really register with me particularly but now it does and that's a sign the time has indeed flown by because now I can get terribly, and the other one is Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now. Oh gosh, I don't think you should listen to that Joni.

Oh why not? Well it's so, it's... Mournful. It is so sad, yeah. But again that hadn't really, I think I must have should listen to that, Jane. Oh, why not? Well, it's so... Mournful. It is so sad. But again, that hadn't really... I think I must have heard it on the radio and thought, my God, that's a good song. Like, I've just discovered that Joni Mitchell's really good.

But I didn't know much about her. I think she's remarkable. I think that's one of her best songs ever. But I would defy anybody, even if you're in the most elated mood, not to be brought to a place of melancholy by that song, I think it is absolutely beautiful. But I'd have to be on very, very firm emotional ground before I listen to that.

Oh, listeners, I trip up the escalator at London Bridge station. I'm full of the joys. Have you? Well, maybe if you weren't looking at love from both sides now, you wouldn't trip up. I haven't fallen over for about a week and a half. Mind you, I was only boring the pants off Matthew Paris and Manveen Rana in Hugo Rifkin's radio studio here at Times Radio the other day, telling them all about how I never got ill. 48 hours later I got a head cold. Exactly the kind of thing I told them I never got. Anyway, Times Radio, how do people listen? Oh, well it's free. So you could just download the app available from any app store and then you get access to Times Radio and all of the other

radio stations in the building. Or you can retune your DAB radio if it doesn't come up automatically, do the same thing in your car. But it is free to listen to and it's a really, really good station. The breakfast show this morning was having quite a laugh with Keir Starmer's countdown to switching on the Christmas lights. It was so brilliantly done, so, so brilliantly done. I think he needed a bit of work on his delivery. Oh, he did. But they mixed it with the Thunderbirds are go countdown.

It was just superb. It was great, great, great radio. Yeah, well, the whole business of him turning on the lights, it's got Christmas started for me. And that is how he would want me to say it. But then again, which of our prime ministers has done the best turning on of the Christmas lights? I can't imagine that. I mean, let's be honest. What did, I can't remember if I had so many prime ministers, name one. Did any of them do it any better? Was she too low?

Oh, yes he probably did do it better. Liz Truss wouldn't have switched any on because she wasn't around at Christmas. She was cruelly robbed of the chance to turn on the Christmas light. Boris Johnson. Oh God, please. Okay, don't remind me of any more Prime Ministers. Thank you very much. But you're right. I'm not sure, you don't need to have a very kind of copious skill set do you, to turn on Christmas lights? Copious skill set? Well, I mean, I tell you what, he was probably, on his mind would have

been the thought that what if they didn't come on? Because then you really would look a right plank wouldn't you? And that will then deliver to all your critics, and there he's got quite a few at the moment, his proof that nothing works on the Kirstama. So I feel a bit of sympathy there that he might have been thinking. Come on! There was a really brilliant cartoon in the Saturday Times, did you see it? Of the Sadvent calendar. Sadvent.

Brought to you by Kirstama. And we just need to feel more cheerful about the world because also, as we know, as history tells us, if there is a vacuum of contentment and happiness all kinds of things can step into it. And in our case that appears to be the threat of Elon Musk and a billion pounds. So, you know, let's get some things right. Do you know what I discovered? I think it must have been in the Times. We're so on message mandy. I think then we've got to stop because we sound ridiculous.

Well, yes. That Elon Musk's nan was from? Where? Liverpool. Oh gosh. I know. There's one we won't be claiming. Anybody would like to hear me sing in my Liverpool home on the podcast before Christmas I'll be happy to do it well have you got a day where it's Jameel Kerens very very harsh let's bring in Camilla who's coming in February to see us at the Barbican Theatre I hope you enjoy it Camilla we've got a meeting

about that today haven't we yes, Fie? Yes, we have. It's a production meeting. A production meeting. Full of ideas. Full of ideas. Well, we've got a meeting anyway, which will be later on. Camilla says, I thought I'd drop you a quick note on TV dramas during the day, because you know that, frankly, I'm stricter on this than you are. I only turn the television on during the day for state occasions. But I only watch nonfiction. Exactly okay so last time I saw my 84 year old aunt in Oslo in the summer says Camilla we got round to

talking about just how good her English had stayed and her secret was this every morning she makes herself a coffee and gets back into bed to watch Heartbeat with Nick Berry which is on every day on NRK, the Norwegian state broadcaster. They nearly only ever put subtitles on the programmes they buy from abroad in Norway, which is a lot, so she's watching it in English and she credits this with keeping her brain active enough to still speak perfect English. Have I got that right? They nearly only ever put subtitles on the programmes they buy from abroad in Norway.

Yes, now that makes sense. OK. It was after a few wines in the summer, so the younger family members did have good laugh about her watching Heartbeat, which she said was broadcast every morning in Norway at 9am. Right. Well it would be a very good way to brush up your foreign language skills wouldn't it? Yes, at the moment I've got subtitles on the few channels I have access to and I can't take them off because I don't know how to do it. Honestly I have no idea sometimes how you get to work Jane. As you know I've struggled a little bit with

the public transport network in the last couple of weeks and ended up at the wrong station anyway. Camilla says, as an aside to this, my six-year-old second cousin was at the same gathering. She also lives in Oslo and she speaks near perfect English taught via Peppa Pig. I think Americans, their children are watching a lot of Peppa and that's annoyed some parents because they're learning to speak proper English, which is what we speak rather than the American version which is not the right one. Okay? Just to make that clear. Good luck with your Esther. Professional cellist travel nightmare. This comes in from Naomi who says

listening to the double bass story I felt as a professional cellist I must write in solidarity. Having played since the age of five I've loved my cello on quite literally every form of public transport for many years and you can imagine the hilarious comments thrown my way. Is that a machine gun? Do you carry your boyfriend in that? And the most rip-roaringly funny comment of all is,

I bet you wish you played the piccolo. I've battered these comments away for years but the other day on the Tube I saw Red when asked do you play the cello? I reply no I fit carpets. It's amazing how people feel they must be the first to come up with such unoriginal questions. On another brief note and I love this Naomi because nobody else has told us this, in the bleak midwinter is in a major key not a minor key. It touches on the relative minor so gives the feeling of a minor key. It's a cracker of a carol, if you'll excuse the pun. Well we will because that is a very insightful detail. I don't understand that, can you explain that?

No. Okay. I can't. Because Naomi is a professional talented musician and I haven't played the oboe since I was 15. Well, I think if you bring your oboe in one day and I sing in my Liverpool home, that will be the perfect way to mark the festive season. Have you still got an oboe at home?

Yes. Oh, there we are. Seriously, could you play a carol on your oboe? Probably, but nobody would want me to. Oh, I'm not so sure about that, Fee. People can let us know. Jane and Fee, Act 2, I'm Stunray. You really don't want that.

I think it would be rather nice, a little bit of mournful. Eve says no as well. Yeah. Katrina says, Katriona, hope I got that right, your correspondent Jenny, who used the same advent calendar year after year, was lucky to have one to herself. I'm one of three and we shared the same calendar year after year, taking it in turns to open the door. Every year we argued about whose turn it was to open number 24, which of course was not only the baby Jesus, but crucially

was a double door. I was shocked to find out that friends at school ripped the doors off theirs. When the calendar was taken down in January, it was stored under a pile of heavy books. But still, like Jenny's, the doors were never properly closed when you started again the next year. My parents were actually quite well off by the time this was happening, but never threw off the frugal habits learned in their working class upbringings during the war. Presence were carefully unwrapped so the wrapping paper could be reused year after year after year. I used to laugh at things like that. I now think there's a lot of merit in saving things like wrapping paper.

Yes, definitely. I do. There's some wonderful wrapping paper around. I started to save all of the stuff that comes as wrapping in clothes, parcels and whatever and I get my cat food delivered and stuff and so there's quite a lot of brown paper that's just stuffed in around the edges and actually if you flatten it out it makes really lovely, lovely wrapping paper so that's what people are getting and also can I recommend just using magazines if you just, no if you just take the really lovely pictures out of magazines. Such as the types? No that's a little bit too thin, you need a glossy mag paper and sellotape it all together. It looks beautiful, put a ribbon round it and people go oh gosh, oh look at that, isn't

that artisan? I think no not really, I've saved a lot of money here but thank you. So I could preserve my very sturdy copy of Tabby monthly and then wrap everything in there. Yes, people would like it. They would. Yvette's in London and says, I heard you talking about maternity and the preconceived ideas you and others had about it. It made me think of this. Now, Yvette has been to see a show called Why Am I So Single? And in brackets she says Vee would love it since she loves musicals. I don't think you would love it.

Why am I so single? I should be in it. What to make of it? Well I have to lower the bar and date a total git. Have you just made that up? Yes, there were two ensemble characters because that's the problem with musicals isn't it? You literally say a sentence and you can turn it into a musical. I did make up a cover the other day.

Stop! I sang, last Christmas I gave you my cat, but the very next day you just gave it back because Dora was being so horrible. Doesn't rhyme properly. I think it was good. It was good. Anyway, if that goes on to say there were two ensemble characters in one of the dance sequences that were wearing baby beyonds and dancing around. So those are the carrying things for babies

aren't they? Little pouches that you put your babies in. And Yvette says the characters were not new mothers nor mothers of any variety but they were just people, just like the other representations of people in the cafe scene when they all started dancing. The babies looked very lifelike and the women also held their heads gently as they twerked. I go to musicals often and I've never seen a show that has characters holding babies just being people without their identity as new mother being part of the role. It was great to see and I wonder if growing up and seeing depictions such as this would change your preconceived ideas of maternity leave.

Maybe not resting on a park bench to try and read like Jane wanted to do, but strap on the baby and go and do everything you used to do. Just sharing as I doubt you'll get to see the show. Well, you never know, I might make a special effort. I might take Jane along for her Christmas treat to Why Am I So Single. I mean it's an intriguing title isn't it? Absolutely intriguing. And I know what you mean actually because it is very rare that you see mums and babies just being another kind of added extra in a scene. There is always a relevance to the fact that they have a baby and this is part of the plot and I think you're right maybe if they were just all around us a little bit more it wouldn't seem quite so odd. Yeah I enjoyed your little your your lapse into music. I think there's a part of you that's just you're a frustrated musical theatre person. I'm so not.

We were talking about Gina Ford yesterday and I did think it was worthwhile just reading out this email from someone who says, you know, frankly, she was a great help to me. So lay off. So this is from Michelle. Just listening to your conversation about controlled crying and I agree it can be cruel and not for every child. However, as a first time mom 14 years ago, I was totally on my own, no family around and I just moved house. So no friends nearby initially, I was totally at sea own, no family around and I'd just moved house, so no friends nearby initially. I was totally at sea about how to deal with a crying child, didn't have anyone to turn to, so I turned to Gina Ford and whilst I was incredibly careful as to

which bits of her book I chose to follow, the control crying, though on my terms, did work for me. From when he was about five or six months, I had a baby that slept from seven in the evening until seven in the morning. That's extraordinary. With a three hour day nap. That's incredible. It was like a miracle says Michelle. Maybe he would have been an amazing sleeper anyway, but I can only say what worked for me. She does say at 14, he's still a great sleeper. Well, yes, at 14 they rediscover sleeping in quite a big way. They get very, very good at it. Well, congratulations, Michelle.

I mean, it was 14 years ago, but we still say congratulations because having a newborn on your tod in the middle of nowhere is not an easy thing to do. Multi, multi challenging, yeah. Yeah, so, and I do think that there is probably yeah I was never earth-mothery enough to think I could just flutter about and with the baby strapped me and not caring whether it was day or night I did like a night and day routine and I don't think there's anything wrong with establishing a

routine that works for you oh I totally agree and baby and it was one of the most challenging aspects wasn't it of getting used to having a baby. The fact that you just had to make your brain work in a different way where if you lost the routine or the routine was broken by something you just had to kind of crack on and you know not do that pile of washing then or not go to the shops then or all of the things that you're just very very used to doing as a single person. Yeah I think that's absolutely, I mean to be fair I still sometimes wake up and think oh yes I did have children, God!

Girls if you want to come and live with me there's always a spare room, I won't forget you! I won't forget you. I remember them, it's just anyway um I met this correspondent Sue last year this time was it this time last year that you had a really nasty bout of something? Oh so I had to well I think I've probably had the Covid again didn't I and we had a we did have an event to do and so I did so I did come in but I don't have particularly happy memories of that day actually, Jane. No, you weren't very well at all. Sue says that you had valiantly come in.

In fact, she uses the word valiant. Fee made a valiant effort to attend. I just thought you'd like to know that most of our street, still not everyone, now back at home after the flood last October. So I remember talking to Sue about the fact that she'd been flooded, so had many of her neighbours, and that was just weeks before she came to Times Towers for this event. Most of us though are still having work done, but we are at least at home. I just think flooding is really terrible, isn't it? The impact is colossal. Well there is one town in Worcestershire, isn't there, that thinks actually its high street will just have to close completely because the

flooding's been so severe. Is that Budely or Timbury Wells? I think it's Timbury Wells. Timbury Wells had the incident with a chap on a tractor a couple of years ago. And I was reading a piece about that where the shopkeepers were saying because they can't get insurance anymore because the premiums are just too high, they just can't really run viable businesses. So, you know, unless they get billion pound investment for flood defences, they will just become a defunct town.

And it's really sad. It's weird, isn't it? Because I think we, our climate has been benign in this country, benign enough to be able to believe that you can get through events like flooding, not that you simply won't be able to and you can't live there anymore. Well, I hear that the long term forecast for this winter in the UK is basically relatively mild but wet. And that's not good. And it's not good for food production either because the land is so slug and good at all. Sue says, could I say hello, or could we both say hello, to a youngster in her family that she's introduced to the podcast, it's Hattie. So Hattie, welcome.

Welcome aboard. And I hope you're enjoying it and if you want to take part as well, like Sue, you know what you can do. It's Jane and Fee at times.radio. I'm sorry to say that Sue has enclosed an image of a carrot, but we're not doing that now. Sue, it's out of respect to the baby Jesus season, no fruity veg. Okay. But I think probably sometime in 2025 we might make a little return to it. Well it's possible. We might need to in 2025 because so far it's a let's hope for happier

times. Come on let's be positive. Let's hope for happier times. Yes let's. We all want to enjoy food that tastes great and is sourced responsibly. But it's not always easy to know where your favourite foods come from. McDonald's works with more than 23,000 British and Irish farmers to source quality ingredients. Mike Allwood is a dairy farmer from Cheshire who supplies organic milk to McDonald's in the UK for its teas, coffees and porridge through Arla. We're involved in a network which has been set up by Arla to look at the possibilities for farming regeneratively.

One of the things we're doing here is moving our cattle and giving them a fresh piece of grass every day to help regenerate the soil. We're very lucky that we've had a long-term relationship with McDonald's and I think often people don't realize how seriously McDonald's take the relationships with farmers. Change a little change a lot. Find out more about McDonald's plan for change on the McDonald's website. And so this would be the right opportunity to welcome in the guests. We are going to talk about the darker side of the music industry in this and there will be some details about kinds of things that have happened in the world of Sean Coombs. So just to put that

out there in case very little ears are listening alongside you. Dorothy Carvello worked in the music industry for many years. She started out as a secretary and went on to become the only female talent scout at one of the major labels in the late 1980s, a workplace that she describes as a circus mixed with an orgy. The kind of sexism she had to put up with on a day-to-day basis eventually led her to complain to HR and she was dismissed. But she didn't want her story to end there and nor should she have to have it end

there. So she has picked up a gauntlet she wants to expose the misogynistic practices of the music industry and so does her attorney Ben Crump. He is a leading American civil rights lawyer known for representing the families of police brutality victims including those of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. Both believe that the music industry is on the brink of its own Me Too movement, not least because of the horrendous allegations now made about the behavior of Sean Coombs.

His trial is scheduled for next year. The charge sheet is long, racketeering, sex trafficking by force, transportation for purposes of prostitution at parties held over the last 20 years. He's already settled a civil lawsuit brought by his former partner Cassandra Ventura, known as Cassie, for assault. Video emerged of him dragging her down a hotel corridor. Now his record label Bad Boy Records signed a worldwide distribution deal with Universal, one of the big three

music companies in the world. Many questions are going to be asked at Coombs' trial about who knew what and when. Now, all movements start with personal stories, and we started with Dorothy's. A normal workday included one time I got into an elevator with two executives, we were on the second floor, they pulled my skirt down,

and when I exited into the full lobby of the Time Warner building, which is a huge building at Rockefeller Center, I was standing there in my panties and my shoes with my skirt and all the So every day was a continual humiliation just based on my gender. And in the music business it's institutionalized and systematic, widespread abuse of women still going on today. Some of the other things that happened to you almost beg a belief. You had a boss who would forcibly kiss you on arriving at the office in the morning. You had a boss who expected you or asked you to sit on his lap during a meeting. Well I was ultimately fired from Atlantic Records because I wrote a memo about years of what I had to endure and for me it was a

personal breaking point. You know, when this happens to you, when you're humiliated daily and physically, emotionally, and sexually abused at work, and this was my first job at age 24 in a corporate world, you just feel like you have no recourse to take it. And then upon that moment, I decided to write a memo to HR, which that's what they tell you to do. You have to follow the corporation's rules

and report it, and report that everything, a culmination of years of this. And I was fired. Do not pass go. I had to file unemployment. I was not given a settlement. Like, you know, today you see people that get fired, they get settlements. And this was a very good job, not just my dream job in the music business.

I had a pension plan, I had health insurance, which I desperately needed. And obviously you went to HR trying to solve a problem, and actually you were regarded as the problem. That's the key thing, isn't it? But you did something very clever, didn't you? Because you bought stocks and shares in Universal, which is in all of them. Okay, in all the labels. So what does that then entitle you to do? Well, as a shareholder, the one in music group, it doesn't matter if you have one share or the shares of the majority shareholder, Mr. Lem Blavatnik, you're considered under the law

as equal in America. In America the symbol of justice is a woman holding two scales and she's blindfolded. Justice should be handed out equally regardless of gender, race, religion, or the amount of money you have. It entitles me to ask for books and records because the Warner Music Group is incorporated in the state of Delaware in the United States. And they're supposed to give me the information that I seek. And my two themes of this, it's called the 220 request. The two themes are abuse of women artists

and women employees and payment of artists royalties because artists are not being paid fair wages either. They hold back their money for years. They wait for them to beg and ask for their money. Meanwhile, they're accruing interest. So it entitles me to that. Of course, they're fighting me tooth and nail, but something

interesting happened today. The court in Delaware awarded a shareholder who wrote a 220 letter like myself in the Elon Musk Tesla case. Not only did the individual shareholder win the case, his legal fees now have to be paid by Tesla in the amount of $345 million dollars were awarded to the lawyers by the judge. So that just bolsters me. In America your sums are eye watering and we love them. But sorry when you say that the Tesla case, let's just make clear what that is. Is that an employee who is suing Tesla? No it is an employee employee who is a shareholder that protested the compensation package of Elon Musk. Right, okay, extraordinary. But it shows you that the shareholder can actually now have rights and like right now

in my against Warner, I'm just in the 220 stage. This win now will allow me to retain a law firm to go and do the same thing, sue the one in music group as a shareholder. So Ben, tell us about the law then because obviously you know Dorothy has set out on a path and been ingenious and all credit to her for that but I mean you know the law is there to be used as well isn't it? Certainly and Dorothy is very courageous for what she is doing. I mean, you talk about the story of David and Goliath. She is the David and against a mammoth Goliath. And thankfully because of the Adult Survivors Act in the state of New York, which allowed

people to come no matter how many years back it has been and bring a legal claim for sexual assault. And so we filed in New York State Court. But as oftentimes when you fight for But as often times when you fight for people who have been traditionally marginalized, whether that's based on gender or race or class or financial status, you have to fight in two courts. Not only do you have to fight in the court of law, but you also have to fight in the court of public opinion. And obviously one of the most extraordinary cases to now be under public scrutiny is that of Sean Coombs and I know that you both have thoughts about that. It would be interesting to just talk about that for a moment. Some of the charges on the charge sheet against him are just mind boggling. I mean the list of them, the exploitation

of women, sexual trafficking, prostitution, blackmail, I mean it's it's it's really extraordinary. So is one of the points that you want to make Dorothy just about this kind of bystander syndrome, whereby so many people at the record company and the link with Sean Coombs is that his label Bad Boy Entertainment was bought wasn't it by the Universal Music Group? He's in business with Universal and with Sony through the Bad Boy with Arista which Sony bought from BMG through the merger. So I think that as his trial, he's fast-tracked to trial and made, more things are going to come out.

The investigation is still ongoing. More people will be named. So supposedly he has videos, you know, the government has videos. And also the difference is the federal government in America has unlimited resources to investigate these type of things. You know, it's, it's, they get in and they dig and they dig and the way that they make their cases are they follow the money. Where did he get the money to finance this elaborate parties and sex trafficking and the alleged drugings and all these things going on. And he started in business at the record labels. And I think that he's not new.

This is not a new story. We've had Michael Jackson, we've had R. Kelly go on for years and years. But I think that we're at a tipping point now where law enforcement is starting to care about women being trafficked. Human trafficking is a major, major issue in America. And drugging and this type of, will advance you through the corporation in exchange for sex. The old pay for play, cast and couch thing. People are sick of this and it has to change and that's what

I set out to do by writing my book and filing my case. Do you think that things have changed already? No. No, I think this is all a faux thing. Just like after COVID everyone said, oh, we're going to do diversity, equity and inclusion. Let's give out some money. It looks good. And then they rolling back. Nothing has changed. It's all mouthpiece through HR. HR is the biggest culprit in this stuff

through the NDAing of women. If a woman is sexually assaulted, it's a traumatic experience that could take years to even reconcile in your own mind. Then you traumatize them again. Well, you get nothing unless you sign and keep your mouth shut. And I've spoken to many women under NDA of sexual assault that read my book and reached out to me and they're terrified to speak out. What happens Ben if you do break an NDA? Well, the NDA is a contract and you enter that contract

and if you breach the contract then you suffer the damages. A lot of times it's monetary damages that could bankrupt you when you enter the NDA, they are meaning to silence you. It's not right when you think about the issue, there was an injustice done and you don't want the injustice to be revealed. And so you make them sign the NDA. You held the job over their head. Now with the NDA,

you holding financial apocalypse over their head. Have you broken an NDA to speak? I've never been under NDA. Okay. You know, I was so not even thought of as a human being. So why bother NDAing? Yeah. You know, she's nothing. What is she gonna do? I heard that line a million times. So when people treat you as a subhuman, you're not even on their radar.

Something I fight far too much in America. So you say that we are about to witness the Me Too movement within the music industry, but if so many people have already been silenced through those type of contracts, how much will we ever be able to know? Well, it's like the Weinstein situation in Hollywood. There were probably dozens of NDAs, probably even more than the music industry. There comes a time for a righting of the wrongs. What Dorothy is doing, what's happening in the Diddy Combs case,

this time is approaching us. Would you also say that that light is burning brighter now because of the sheer talent of female artists? You know, there are so many women absolutely at the top of their game, bright and now because of the sheer talent of female artists you know there are so many women absolutely at the top of their game making a lot of money for the record label so they cannot afford to have this hypocrisy? No the hypocrisy exists the female artists and I've spoken to many that are under NDA they are surrounded by we have layers of people, managers.

These are part of the enablers. When some of the female artists have tried to speak up, they're quelched because you'll be blackballed at the label. The female artists and female employees are the lowest numbers ever in the music business at the moment because we're considered troublemakers just because we don't want to be assaulted at work. That's wrong. Like you said, so much of the female talent and the greatest music are coming from female artists, but there are many on the NDA. It's the same story, nothing has changed.

Until we put a woman running, there's only three major music companies, Universal, Sony, and Warner. Until recently, until last year, they were all run by three British white males. Until we get rid of white male culture of my generation, these men were from my generation, they were trained by old school men that abuse is built into their business model. We need change. We need women at the tire C suites of these record companies. Some of these women have earned their jobs. Let them run it.

We need women on the boards of directors that are not gonna rubber stamp whatever the chairman says. They're gonna question it and say, we have to stop NDAing women. Get rid of the males that abuse, sexual abuse. They say, oh, who's going to do this job? I always say the same thing. Go to the zoo, pick out any animal in a cage and put them in the C-suite.

They could do just as good as job. Okay? It's not, everyone acts like you need some special sauce in the ingredients to run a record company. At the end of the day, it's a business. It's a publicly traded company. There's a board of directors. People know what the right thing to do and assaulting women in the workplace is not the

right thing to do. I'm with you there. And you kill female talent. Stop telling women they could do everything if you're not, if the men are not going to allow us into the workplace stop feeling threatened by women that just speak their mind there's so much great talent and ideas the music business needs it. The straight-talking fantastic Dorothy Carvello and the attorney Ben Crump. Ben has got a movie out at the moment which

is up for nomination at the Oscars, we think, we hope. It's called Sewing the Clue Clucks Clan and gosh I really really hope Jane that in our children's lifetime when they're the age that we are they simply don't have those kind of people to interview because that kind of stuff has stopped happening and is that a false hope do you think? Look I said we want to be more optimistic, let's hope it's not a false hope. Yeah but just you know time after time after time these stories come to light where you know once they're in court once it's out in the open it turns out that hundreds of people knew what was going on. Yeah but there always has to be that one person who kicks it all off, who speaks up,

who sticks their head above the parapet, who potentially risks ruining everything about their life, certainly their professional life, by calling it out. Yeah. So really difficult and challenging. And I'm not helping with the old optimism here, am I? But we do have brighter guests to come, don't we? Well, we do. And starting tomorrow with a guest I'm going to call for,

a Christmas cracker. It's Michael Ball. There we are. That's tomorrow. Take care. See you then. Bye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on

Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. ["The New York Times"] We all want to enjoy food that tastes great and is sourced responsibly, but it's not always easy to know where your favourite foods come from. McDonald's works with more than 23,000 British and Irish farmers to source quality ingredients.

Sophie Bambridge grows quality potatoes for McDonald's Iconic Fries in Norfolk. I think McDonald's are one of the biggest supporters of British farming. They have a real commitment to British potatoes. The Sustainable Fries Fund is a collaborative investment by McCain and McDonald's to help us understand and try different growing techniques for potatoes so that we can understand what we can do to help reduce our impact on the environment but still produce a good quality potato. It helps enable us to try things without having the risk and cost of potentially it going wrong. The support from McCain and McDonald's is really useful to us. Change a little, change a lot.

Find out more about McDonald's Plan for Change on the McDonald's website.