Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Madonna, you're alright, love (with Iain Dale)

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Jane and Fi are reunited! It's the long-awaited return. From Oslo, Fi brings rich anecdotes, royal history, and fridge magnets. From East-West Kensington, Jane brings congestion and a cold. They cover the economic potential of a cinnamon bun, Dolly's legacy, Madonna's sense of humour, and the protein in weevils. Plus, broadcaster and friend of the show Iain Dale discusses the paperback edition of his book 'Margaret Thatcher: The Prime Ministers Series'. Iain's memoir 'Have I Said Too Much?: My Life in Politics & the Media' is also out now. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Are we on? When we were off school, hello everybody. Hello. When we were off school ill in secondary school, the day that we were back, we used to have to, at the end of assembly, anyone who had been absent the day before, had to walk up on stage and hand an absent note to the headmistress. It was so bizarre.

It was very conspicuous. Well, it was quite shaming. It was quite a shaming thing to do. It was very weird. What would be the emo behind that? I don't know. Apart from making a really, bad you've been away. Presumably the temptation to do a cough when you're on the, you know,

a stag of a bit, drag your leg behind you or something. It would be irresistible. I would have, I don't know what the emo was. No, it was very strange. It was to shame you into basically not being off. Yeah. And also, of course, it was only for day girls. It was a boarding school, but it was only day girls who were, I don't think if you'd spend a day in the sand, I don't think you had to do the same thing. My memory's not particularly clear on that. It's not particularly clear. A lot of stuff, no, it isn't.

The sand, just to explain, that's the sanatorium. Okay, I mean, presumably, as a day girl, were you ever allowed to bear witness? Did you go inside it? No, occasionally I went to visit sick boarding friends. That's what I meant, yeah. But otherwise, no, you either struggled home yourself or somebody would come and pick you up

if you were a day girl and you were unwell. Oh, right. We did have, we had, well, it was a completely window-lust cupboard that was the sick bay. And to be honest, just a mere glance inside it, he didn't feel well. So it wasn't really worth, you didn't want to linger there, that's for sure. No. Just a camp bed and a bucket. Yeah.

No way to spend your time. But actually, happy days. Oh, yes. Because so many schools don't have matron at all anymore. And actually, matron was fantastic. If you had a good matron, matron was fantastic, matron was your mate? Really, was she? Very much so. I remember in primary school,

Maitron had strepsels, and we weren't allowed sweets at all. Strapsels? We developed quite a good routine in walking up the stairs. So by the time we got to Matron's store, she had to hand out a suite. I'll tell you, what, you were living austerity

before the Tories came up with it, weren't you? Bloody hell didn't have sweets. We'll look forward to a strepsel. Do you hear about this Eve? Put hairs on your chest, doesn't it? It's just that my mum was, just fierce about sugar, really, really fierce about sugar and television. Okay, I don't know. Sweet or did you look what happened? And it's worked a treat. You've completely steer clear with the media.

You've had nothing to do. You've had nothing to do with sugar. Right. Brilliant. Yeah. I've lived an absolutely abstemious life, Jane, as you know. Yes, indeed. Now, how is your holiday? Because I haven't seen you for ages. Gosh, we've had such a bumpy ride, haven't we? Well, only bump in a sense we both went away. I mean, it's not like your childhood. It wasn't as bad as that. No, I went to Greece and you've been, and I'm really interested in hearing about it

because it's a country that has long fascinated me. You've been to Norway. I have been to Norway. So tell us, because you were there at the time, and it's lovely to have you back, actually. Everybody would be very, let's just hear from Eve just to prove that she does still exist. She is here.

I'm here as well, but I really don't think anyone needs to hear from me. Oh, don't Peter. Nonsense star. I'll tell you what, you couldn't open my coffee. I can go. All right, shut up, Eve. Let's hear about Norway, because you were there when the king died. I know, Jane.

It was incredible. So tell us how all that unfolded. Well, it's very difficult to undo, isn't it? I think it's lost its thread at the top. I feel like it's come away from... Yeah, I think it might. I don't know what to do about that. Yeah, it's very difficult.

Well, the late King Harold didn't die in vain. Let's actually hear about it. Because most of us... Sorry. I mean, I'll be absolutely frank with you. I wasn't aware that the king existed until he... Unfortunately, really, until he was very close to not existing, which is when I started to read stories about him.

That surprises me because, as our in-situ daily male correspondents, I imagined you'd know an awful lot about King Harold because the Norwegian royal family has been beset by... stories. Oh no, you're right. I did know about the trouble. And actually really, really bad things. Quite unpleasant things. Yes. Yeah. I stand corrected. But King Harold, I believe, and this was what we gleaned from being in Norway when he died, was a really, really loved monarch. So on the morning that he died, and we knew that he had been in hospital, because it was front page of all of the newspapers all over the place. And we all got pings on our phones saying, you know, the news has just come in very early in the morning. And, we were due to go into Oslo anyway, so we carried on, did our normal stuff, but do you know what, there are many, many things about Oslo that I just found beguiling and bewitching. What a beautiful, beautiful city. One tiny detail is that their public transport is good and everybody takes it.

So the great and the good take the bus, as well as anybody else who, in this country, you know our buses tend to be full of people who would struggle to be able to afford the other forms of public transport so you know make of that what you will we were on the bus into Oslo and there were people already in their morning gear gosh on the bus in suits yeah to go and pay their respects at the palace

yes very much so all carrying flowers and it was an extraordinary feeling there was a I think a 12 gun salute at midday which was the cannons going out across the bay, which was remarkable as well. And loads of flags flying at half-mast. There were lots and lots of kids who were, I mean, I presume it was still school holidays when we were there.

There were lots of kids who were heading towards the palace as well. And you just had this feeling because Oslo is a very small city. How big is it? Well, it's only about 750,000 people. Oh, I see. So it is very small. So you can really feel what's happening in one part of the city when you're in the other.

And also the palace is in the, you know, pretty much the heart of the city too. So it was really extraordinary, Jane. And people just had such lovely things to say about him. And obviously, I'm not a world expert on King Harold. But even people with a Republican bent seemed to acknowledge that he as a person was a mighty fine thing. And he did step over what we see in this country as a very, very firm. line where the monarch doesn't comment on politics or the business of the day. He stepped over that line and Norway has had horrendous difficulties with,

it's had violent reaction to immigration. So they had a terrible massacre in 2011 involving lots of children. I mean, just an absolutely horrendous thing to happen. Yes, that was horrific. Yes, yeah. And, you know, they have had pressure from the far right in Norway. And he stepped over that political line and said, and actually I just want to get the quote exactly right for you,

because I don't want to do a mis-service. In 2016, making a speech marking 25 years on the throne, he hailed his country's growing diversity. It's not always easy to say where we come from, which nationality we have. The place we call home is where our heart is, and that can't always be placed within a country's boundaries. I mean, it's a pretty, you know,

but I don't think there's, I don't think it can be any, clearer actually about how welcome he wanted Norway to be towards all of its new incoming residents as well. So it was extraordinary Jane. It was a really remarkable thing to be a little bit part of. It's a very wealthy country as well, isn't it? It's very wealthy. It's very expensive. So, you know, it's got its incredible assets. It's still drilling and there have been quite a few comparisons I know this week in this country because we're having a continued discussion about the North Sea drilling. So it still drills, but it's also got incredible renewables and a dedication to them. And it's a very expensive country to live in.

So a price of a meal for a couple of people? Oh, Lord, okay, well, I can probably do it better in a supermarket shop. Right. So there were five of us on our holiday. We did a very, very basic supermarket shop just for one meal, which was pizza bases, pizza toppings, and some non-alcoholic beer, so nothing expensive at all. A couple of cinnamon buns thrown in there for the next day,

£144. Oh, blimey. Right, okay. So not a bargain break. No. But a fascinating place to be. No. And, you know, we definitely embrace the nature,

not least because we couldn't go out. I can't get you all that time. You just have to... You'll be taking a sandwich. Yes. Yes. Have this day old bun and a strepso. Well, we do.

We made the cinnamon buns last four days. Okay, right. Because they're very firm things and covered in sugar. So actually by day four you could toast them, and they were still perfectly adequate. You could dunk them like those kind of hard biscuits. Your mum, if she'd known you were eating sugary buns in Oslo, she'd have been absolutely horrified.

I know. I hope she doesn't find out. Can I just say, though, that there's something very, very magical about Norway. We stayed in an Airbnb, so there are ways of doing it where you know, you won't break the bank. And you are outdoors all the time. The bus costs three pounds to go into the centre of Oslo. Flat rate. Yes.

You buy a single ticket. It's so sensible. You buy a single ticket for an hour. So you can hop off the bus and onto the tram and get wherever you want to. But only in an hour? In an hour. No, but that's really sensible. We do are, so I have to take two different, I should really take a bus and then two tubes to work.

that would be the sensible thing to do. I would have to pay each step of the way for that. Why not just have a single ticket? Because it's a single journey. It's not my fault. I have to get off and transfer across the tube network. You choose to work here. Look, just wait until you're 60.

Wait till 9 o'clock and, you know, it's brilliant. That's true. Final thought about it as well. People have such a respect for their landscape. There's no litter. There's no litter, Jay. Oh, I like that. There's no letter. And we swam in the fjord every morning, you know, just off, you know, these concrete things that have been built and you just dive in and everybody's there, young and old. We were there at about kind of 10.30 one morning. It was a not particularly warm day, but a couple of painters and decorators had clearly done a shift already that day. They just came down. They just got in the water in their pants, had a swim around, dried off, went back.

Goodness me, painters and decorators and their pants. Yes. If you want to see tradespeople don't access. Head to Norway. Yes. As soon as I embarked on that story, I thought that's going to come out wrong. Right, well look, no, you've sold it.

And I'm such a nerd, but the temperature would be what, 23, 24, any higher? No, it was no higher than that. It was so nice. It was really, really, really, really lovely. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So we went to the Nobel Peace Prize Museum.

I brought you a small gift. Yes. From the Nobel Peace Centre, I have a fridge magnet. And actually, no fridge magnet is wasted on me. I have got so many on my fridge. Where else would I put them? Proud fridge owner, Shane Garvey. This is a lovely photograph of Willie Brandt, Nobel Peace Prize laureate, 1971, of course.

Of course. Everybody knew. Everyone knew when Willie Brandt won the Nobel Peace Prize. And a quote from him, it often takes more courage to change one's opinion than to keep it. I saw that and thought of you. Now, I have been accused of changing my mind on a few things. I just like to consider myself a flexible friend,

someone who moves with the times. Okay, and sometimes just outright contradicts themselves. But whatever, I own it. Yes. Thank you. That's quite alright. I haven't got you a present. Okay, thank you.

That's very kind of you. What would you have brought? But there must have been some nice fridge magnets in Greece. Well, there were. I could have got you a Kevallonia one, but I got one for myself. No, I always think there's something very weird about having a fridge magnet or a snow globe from somewhere you haven't been to yourself. Oh, you shouldn't do that.

That's quite wrong. Yes, I think that's devious, actually. Devious. Well, people will now think I've visited the Nobel Peace Centre. Yeah, but it's not very, I mean, it doesn't go, you know, it's not saying Oslo to you, is it? No. It's just saying very thoughtful. While you were away, I did go to the Anish Kapoor at the Hayward Gallery

and I do have one of those fridge magnets. Lovely. What's on an Anish Kapoor fridge magnet? One of his... Works of art. Can you describe it? No, I can't. It wasn't the big pile of entrails that people were warned about. Okay. Because I don't think you'd want that as a fridge magnet.

Especially not open the fridge. What was the one that he did at the tape modern? A big trumpet. A big trumpet. Well, it was sort of, but this wasn't the big trumpet. There was some quite serious warnings. And look, I do know that some people are squeamish. I get that.

There were some warnings outside this exhibition at the Hayward Gallery about the bloody end trails and stuff. But, I mean, without being unpleasant, I mean, if you've had a period, which I have, I mean, obviously not for a while, that kind of thing isn't that disturbing. How big? It's quite big. Yeah, but I mean, you know, we've all seen blood.

for God's sake, get over it I know what you mean I just seem a little bit over the top But everything has to have a warning though Oh yes Have you seen second life Tracy Emmons exhibition

Which I think it's finished now Oh has it? Yes it was on at the Tate Modern For the last couple of months Right So that had a lot of warnings in it Because she's very visceral in her art About what her abortion did

To her sense of herself Right Her life and therefore her art and actually that was an exhibition where I thought yes it is good to be warned about this yes okay she's yes yes yes and there were people who were so deeply affected by what they'd seen there were a couple of young women who must only have been about 25 or 26 you know they'd they'd got through about half of the exhibition and some of it is Tracy I mean actually speaking to the camera about what she felt the abortion had done to her and it completely

She completely revolutionised her sense of art and herself. And she said, I just can't be anything other than my emotional state now in my art. So it's very, very powerful stuff. And there were two girls, they were just lying down on the floor. They were just completely overcome by what they'd seen. Well, I'm not knocking that. I've obviously no idea because I haven't seen it. No, but sometimes I think it is good to be warned.

Yes, I think, no, that's interesting. And do you know what? I've already come close to change my mind. since the gift of the fridge magnet which we'd never started this now anyway oh gosh it's good to be back now we just need to say first of all

we've got to nail this flipping scam thing oh my goodness so such a pain so let's just do it again so this time so they've done you for months haven't we this is somebody who sends two authors an email saying I'm Jane Garvey

and that's me I'm feed lover I've read your book I think it's fascinating It's fascinating for all of these reasons, so it's quite a kind of in detail, in-depth explanation of our shared curiosity about books. Would you like to come on Times Radio? And then the follow-up email will be, you need to pay us administrative costs. And it's a really weird sum of money, isn't it? It's a strange sum.

I think it's about $312 or something. Yeah, which is a lot. Also, it's a lot. But why pick that? It's such a strange. some if it was 100 quid. I'm not saying I'd agree with it, but I could make a kind of sense. Obviously, we

don't operate in dollars, but much more importantly, it's not us. We would never do this. We can't do it. We're never, ever, ever going to ask people to pay money to talk about their book on the podcast. Nope. It's just not a thing. So if you

know anyone who's had one of these emails, if you've had one yourself, it's just nonsense. It's a scam. Ignore it. Yes. The latest one comes in from Justin Beale, one of several people who had received these things. He had been asked for £125, covering the production preparation and author's spotlight materials outlined above. I mean, it's quite the thing, isn't it?

It says as part of the feature you'll receive, and we should note this, because we're not necessarily providing these things at the moment. This is what apparently you'll get. Professional interview production and recording. What? Questions research specifically around you on your book? No chance. A professionally designed author's spotlight image featuring you and your book.

A polished interview feature prepared for presentation. A copy of the completed interview material for your records and permitted future use. We don't provide any of that, Eve, too. Absolutely not. So I think, you know, Justin was wise to it when he got to that part of the email. But, yeah, do you know what really shocked me was the fact that, that your name had been used a good couple of months ago, hadn't it?

A couple of years ago, I think now. Okay, so it's still going on and on and on. You highlighted it here and back on the... Radio for the BBC. To be fair, to the redoubtable consumer show, you and yours, and some other... They do a spin-off podcast about scams. They've both done it, both owned it,

both said, this shouldn't be happening, don't fall for it, and still it is happening. It's really annoying, actually. It is very annoying. It is very annoying and because of course you and I will never know the people who have been goaded

into parting with their money because apart from anything else I bet people who have been and there will be some people they'll just be too embarrassed to say I fell for this so please spread the word and know we would never ever charge

you for our services obviously charge Uncle Rupert but that's between us and Roops yes it is we've been talking over the last couple of weeks And in fact, there was an article, I don't know if you saw it on the Times.com over the weekend or late last week, from a young woman who'd applied for over 100 jobs. And it was a very well-read article. It's one of those articles. A lot of people had connected with lots of comments underneath, almost all of them really sympathetic and supportive and just saying, look, this is not an easy time and we really feel for this generation. So I just wanted to mention this email from a listener called V. I just wanted to comment on the recruitment of young people. I carry out repeat recruitment for entrance. level seasonal positions that suit young people and recent graduates. As these are public sector

aligned posts, we have to use an online recruitment system, no CVs. There are instructions on how to complete the application, phone numbers for advice, etc, but the number of applicants who make no reference to the required skills and experience asked for in the skill criteria means that at scoring stage, many applications are simply rejected. If there is a skills specification, please advise people to address this in order. Bullet points are fine to demonstrate how they meet the requirements. Those of us recruiting will love you for it and are able to favourably score your applications. Often out of a field of 150 applicants, I can only take six to interview due to the lack of information in the applications

as I have to be able to demonstrate why person A made the interview but not person B. So I hope that just helps some people. Sometimes young people have a slightly, and I'm not criticising them, a slightly scattergun approach and just throw in a load of applications

because I appreciate it is really hard at the moment. It is always worth just reading the small print. It's boring, I know, but just make sure you are offering or are able to offer what is specifically being asked for because otherwise you will be wasting your time. Yes. And you won't hear much back or you probably won't hear anything.

And I think we do need to spare quite a bit of thought for the people who are going through all of these applications because actually if you've advertised an entry-level job, you may not be expecting to have to devote a lot of your time to thousands of application forms that come in. and it must be very difficult to feel... I think it is. Yeah, that you know, that you're getting it right

and sifting out the right people or the wrong people. So, yes. I mean, it's easy for us to say, try not to take it person, and if you do get a load of rejections. Oh, it's so easy for us to say, James would be really, really hard. Yes, absolutely.

Dolly Parton, now, that was sad, wasn't it? Do you know what? I was thinking over the weekend that I've covered any number of celebrity deaths, so-called over the years. But honestly, the reaction to her dying last week, even from some of our more carpey listeners, shall we say, was overwhelmingly, oh, that's sad. I hadn't realised how much good work she'd done. Well, even Mike. Well, not necessarily Mike. No, I didn't mention Mike by name. Although I don't think we heard from Mike. So maybe he was just silenced. Because I think in truth, even if you're not a big country person, lots of people don't like country music, although young people absolutely love country.

country music right now. It's having a huge resurgence. No, the reaction was from a lot of people was, oh gosh, well, I, you know, I didn't really play her music, but gosh, I didn't know she'd done that literacy campaign. I didn't know she'd given Moderna a million dollars or whatever it was. I just didn't know that about her. And she genuinely does seem to be that rare thing, a showbiz entity, who was actually so, so much more than her incredible talent. I think her life story on so many levels, Jane is just remarkable. I mean she was one of so many siblings. The younger three she raised herself with her husband Carl when they realised that they weren't going to have children of their own. I mean that's kind of passed over in a couple of sentences in the obituaries. It's just like, wow.

No, that is, that is a remarkable thing to do. And actually we too often say, oh, we she didn't have children. Well, that's not really true, is it? Just what I was about to say. You know, she had had that caring role in a childhood that probably didn't give her a huge amount of care. I mean, she was one of eight, wasn't she? She was one of 12. I think it's 12. Yeah. So I just think so many things about her are remarkable. And would you agree that she's one of those people who managed to evoke a really, really personal reaction in people. And there aren't very many, especially female singers who managed to do that. So we might really, really love elements of Madonna's work and catalogue and stuff,

but that personal connection, I don't really feel it for Madonna. I'm sure some people do. I think people do feel it for Taylor Swift. I think they do feel it for Kylie Minogue. I think they definitely feel it for Dolly Parton. What is it? Was it a kind of vulnerability? Because I don't think Madonna has made herself vulnerable.

Do you think she's just got a bit more metal between her and us? I'm not saying Madonna's far from talentless. I wouldn't say, Madonna, that must come as a relief to you to hear that from me. No lesser person than me. I've got a bronze medal for life-saving. But there's just something about her that isn't as appealing. She hasn't made herself as appealing in that way. She obviously chose not to.

I'm not saying that Dolly made herself necessary. I don't know. there was a She reached out She managed to reach That's the thing She was funny And Madonna's not funny

No Is she? Is Madonna funny? I don't know I can't name you a Madonna gag No I just haven't spent much time In her company to know I don't know

I've never heard Madonna make a right old wise cracker Do you know what I bet she's got a potty mouth She's probably got a potty mouth But that doesn't necessarily make you funny Anyway from now on We'll be able to fly into Dolly Parton And that's something that I might think about doing.

Yeah, why not? Yeah, why not? So, no, it was very sad. I completely agree. Completely agree. So she had also done, I think, the decent thing where she had stopped performing when she believed that she couldn't perform

to the best of her ability. And there are some aging rockers. I was going to say, can you think of any podcasters who might want to draw a line under there. No. No, we had a terrible email from a lady who dreamt you'd resigned.

Drempt what? So you'd resign. I haven't seen that one. No, I haven't read it. I'll get to it in a second. I did like this email from Jen. Your listener's story about the unfortunately placed pregnancy tests at the supermarket reminded me of a time when heavily pregnant

looking for the women's antinatal health products in boots. I located these items in an aisle cheerfully labelled treats for mum. The treats included folic acid, gaviscon, lanolin nipple cream and absolutely enormous maternity sanitary pads. Give you mum a treat. Get us some nipple cream and one of those enormous house brick sanitary pads. She'll love you forever.

Absolutely priceless. Can I also just say, nipple cream, you don't need it. You will have something in your bathroom cabinet. Don't fall for it. Actually, I was going to, what is nipple cream supposed to do? Well, lots of women have cracked nipples,

don't they, after they've been breastfeeding for quite some time. Sorry about this, even. We're back to what you're usually. form but you know I just think sometimes they're taking the Mick aren't they asking you to buy lots of new things

that you don't necessarily need? The thing that never worked for me was the alleged colic medication doesn't stop colic no I think we were lucky neither of mine really had colic they had other things Jane don't feel that we escaped at all

I think I've still got a jar of pseudacrome from those early years oh pseudogram now that it never goes no but that's good stuff oh it's really good stuff Yes, you can use that in just about anything. Yep. And I have.

Me too. On a nice bit of... No, not on toast. No, but I have used it for some squeaky hinges and it works an absolute treat. House still for sale. Still available. I thought you were rethinking that entire...

No, we might... It might go. It's not haunted. It's not infested. No, but have... you've been talking about infestations. I love opening the email inbox. Oh, was it about weevils? Is it just weevils?

No, no, we had somebody who was really suffering with weevils. But no, not me. You haven't. For once, it's not me. Can I do weevils in from Tessa? I just wanted to reassure your lovely listener about the weevils in their dry goods because yes, indeed, that is what they are. We don't usually need to worry about them in the UK

because sadly our weather is too chilly. That's going to change, isn't it? We lived on a boat for two years in the Caribbean though and weevils were a daily consideration. They lay their eggs in all of the grains and dry goods that we eat and when it gets lovely and hot and humid they hatch and grow into the little black creepy crawlies that you see in your flour, rice, cereal and pasta.

At first I was so unbelievably grossed out, we threw everything away but after a while you kind of get used to the odd little black floaty thing in the rice, just a little extra protein. After a while we learned that the best way to mitigate them was to put any new bags of flour, cereal, pasture, etc. in the freezer for 48 hours, and that kills the weevil eggs. God, it's quite an effort, though, isn't it?

It is. And I'm just putting my hand up here, Tessa, to ask a follow-on question. So that kills the weevil eggs, but you are still eating them, aren't you? And that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. And is that just me being a bit too prissy? Look at Eve's face? Look at Eve's little face? You're feeling sorry for the thing.

Because you're a vegetarian. Eve wouldn't want to eat them. But then again, I do need the extra protein. Yes. You look healthy enough. I wouldn't worry too much. I sometimes think that when I go and runs and swallow lots of flies. Yes.

Right. Laughs at her own joke and goes off. Maybe close your mouth. When you run in like some kind of a basking shark. Oh, dear, I'm so sorry. Has it been a difficult week? After a while, we learned that the best way to mitigate them was, No, I've done that, but...

Hang on, hang on. We would also get rid of any cardboard before it came on the boat because much more disgusting are cockroaches which lay their eggs in cardboard and hatch in similar conditions. You see, this is what happens when you go and live in the Caribbean.

Now it's going cold, I don't think your listener and all have anything to worry about. They don't carry any diseases. They don't bite or itch, but I totally understand not wanting to serve them up to guests. We're not guests.

It's all right if it's just the family. But honestly, no, you really don't want to serve guests. Apropos of nothing, I've been a bit viral over the last couple of days. Yes. Yes, I was in the house and I was not really doing very much. So I was, it's so predictable, by the way, that I was poorly over the bank holiday weekend. I'm so sorry, Jane. But perfectly all right to come to work today.

That's annoying, isn't it? It's just frustrating. You know, back in our old place of work, there were people who would, because you are, legally entitled if you're, not for us because we're effectively freelance, but if you're on a contract and you've been ill during your time away, you can't claim it, can you? Can you claim it? Can you really?

And there were people who claim that I had two days during my holiday where I had a cold. You're joking. How do you retrospectively, how do you prove that? You just go and tell you a lying manager. Anyway, while I was lying poorly in my homestead over the last couple of days, I became very exercised by Lake Ontario. and that the name changed. Oh, Trump.

You're such an asshole. Just cock off. Yeah. So I decided, because Google, you know, Google changed it. Yes. So I actually found myself Googling. This is what, we are so up our own fundament on planet Earth in 2026. I googled, Google, why are you so supine in the face of Donald Trump?

And Google actually replied. Same. Came up with a whole list of reasons why they'd just done his business. bidding and I thought what a strange set of circumstances I've found myself in well it's a very good idea to send it back to them because then that all goes into the strange kind of ecosystem of artificial intelligence replies

I should have actually brought it with me but it's worth doing if you have a spare look you probably have to be as bored as I was at the time I did it but do do do it and just have a look at what it comes up with it's quite interesting it comes up with a list of reasons why they just didn't have any option. Well, quite a lot of people commented on the fact that the Google spokesperson sounded very tired, yet another, we're going to have to say all this stuff, which I don't think they're convinced by either. But it's so pathetic. It is absolutely pathetic. Beyond pathetic. And also, as soon as you were flying over Lake Ontario, when you were in America, it would tell you

you're flying over Lake America. And then by the time you got to the other side of the lake, it would tell you you've flown over Lake Ontario. So for heaven's safe. You're advertising how stupid you are. Yeah. Well, you absolutely are. Yeah. I like Mark Carney. I like what he's doing. And I like the Canadian response to all of this.

I mean, the two-story high, this is Lake Ontario. Always has been, always will be. It's great. It is great. Yes, more power to him. Should we talk about big breakfasts? Yes. This is from Belinda, from the Bath Environs, she said. as dear Jane, Fee, Eve and Hannah from Huddersfield, not Hartleypool, or possibly the other way around.

Hannah is from Huddersfield, isn't she, not Hartley Paul? That was my bad the other day, and I have apologised. I'm doing it again. I've been meaning to email for years, and I've got as far as drafting a couple and then just wimping out. However, today I've plucked up the courage inspired by Jane's most recent breakfast feminidences and an experience we had a few weeks ago in a damp, cool and green, in fact, heavenly west coast of Scotland. Near Oben is a bridge known locally as the bridge over the Atlantic, connecting the mainland to the island of Seal. Now on the island side is a famous pub, and behind the famous pub is a newish butcher's called Rock's Fine Foods. Aside from the wonderful local venison and beef, one can procure something called a breakfast pack. I challenge you, she says,

not to be impressed by this. It contains Haggis. Sausages time six. Bacon times six. Lorn sausage time six. Eggs time six. Black pudding, white pudding and fruit pudding. I'd never heard of fruit pudding before. Our foodie friends had to get it. The butcher described it as containing citrus and raisins and enthused about it as a palate cleanser. Listeners, we bought the breakfast pack, cooked it and served it to six game volunteers. The results were, shall we say, filling. I think somebody mentioned the meat sweats. Fruit pudding, which I suppose is an echo of the original mincemeat recipe, was not the triumph that the enthusiastic butcher had promised. One of our number swat mine for his haggis,

which impressed me. However, he then reneged and tried to get the haggis back. Photo attached, need I say more. I mean, that is a lot of meat. It's so much meat. It's a lot of meat. It is. Now, I can't remember... by the quantity there. When we were in North Berwick, and you did have the full Scottish breakfast. Did you have haggis with that? There was a bit of haggis with it from memory, yes.

Yes, I don't dislike it. I don't rave about it. I love a haggis. Do you? Yes, all peppery and bready. That's what I like about it. A vegetarian haggis, I think, is just as good as a meaty one.

You're the woman who outed herself only half an hour ago as being someone who used to look forward to a strepsel, so I'm not really sure how much credit we can give your, you know, times were different then. Certainly were. Things were so much and cheery up north. At least have Sherba Fountains and everything.

So, no, we had Sherm at Div Davs too, but we just weren't allowed to have sweets at home. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mum, if you're listening. Well, we know she doesn't listen. No, she doesn't listen to. I hope I'm not daubing Cillor and too much here, but she does have Times Radio on in the house.

She doesn't listen to us in the afternoons. She's busy. Fair enough. But she did. Because they put out some other podcasts, not ours interestingly, but they put out some other podcasts in the wee smaller hours of the morning.

When? When mum is a little bit insomniac, she will come across other people's podcasts. And she did ask me if I could find other podcasts for her that she'd be able to listen to, but at no point did you say. And it came up on the... screen. I think you've got this one. No, I don't.

All right. You listen to the journalist and the gentleman, seeing how you get on with that. It was apparently a very good. She's a very, very good episode about Pete Higgsuth and why he's wrong about his ridiculous testosterone tests. Oh my God. What's going on there, Jane? Do you know what? I don't think it's it unreasonable to point out that Pete Higgsworth might not be an especially erudite gentleman. I mean, I think he's as mad as a...

Yeah. Anyway. Well, there is this email that... Low-grade individual. Circulated in the public domain written by his mother. Oh, yes, I've seen that. She doesn't like him either. No, she's got some things to say about him too. Yes, the testosterone test that was a suggestion from him

that members of the armed forces in America might have to undergo this is just so bizarre. As a basic misunderstanding about what it is that hormones are there for and do, and also just why would you want your army to be, fueled only by that. It just shows such a basic misunderstanding of what an army is for. I mean, it's just terrible. It's just like, okay, so you just want people who get up in the morning and they're deranged with their own aggression. I mean, you're just a pathetic, absolutely, pathetic excuse for a man. That is not what makes men men. No. It's just not, Jane.

No, but I mean, I did read something terrifying over the weekend in my sweaty stupor that there was a possibility of him running for president. Oh, God. Okay. No, we're all going to have to go to Norway if that happens and just batten down the hatches and hope that the Norwegians welcome us. I don't think we could afford to. No, that's very true.

Let's start saving now. Yep. They apparently, because we did have quite a few discussions about how you could live in a country like that if you weren't particularly wealthy yourself. And I believe that the reason why you can is because the very high taxes which people are paying are distributed really well in education.

and health and transport. So other parts of your life, if you're not earning as much money. I've taken care of. Yes, and it did feel that way. But who knows, because obviously we were only there for a week. I'm not an expert. Nor am I Norwegian. No, well, Paging Norway, do let us know.

Yes, it would be lovely to different people who have moved there or who live there full stop. Shall I just do a final AI madness? Because this is quite funny. So this is just proof that they're not getting everything right, are they? It comes in from Sarah. who says love the show Steve, and we do like that tribute. You know, I was only thinking yesterday,

I could have done with a Steve Wright in the afternoon on Bank Holiday Monday. Yeah, it would have been good. Do do, do, do, do. It's just that theme at the beginning. Exactly. It just perked you up, didn't it? You have the big show. Well, that was really lacking yesterday because I was fit for nothing.

What did you listen to? Well, I'm still reading the Caslet Chronicles, or as several listeners of... Casualet. Casuale. So that was actually perfect. yesterday afternoon. Excellent.

I'm only halfway through the second one, so I've got lots of delicious Casillette fun to catch up with. Just as a book recommendation, I just got completely stuck on Peter Granger's books.

I haven't managed to move away from them at all. I'm on my sixth. Are you? I know people absolutely love them. I still haven't read one, but I will get around. I think if you like Susie Steiner

and if you like William Boyd, and I mean, he's just a superb writer. So this is crime fiction. But not bloody, ghastly violent. No, it's not bloody ghastly. And it doesn't focus on women being afraid as well, which is just such a massive, massive theme in so many other writers. And women writers, just as much as male crime writers.

So it's very, very thoughtful. It's beautiful characterizations. It's set in Norfolk. It's just clever. It's clever and thoughtful. And it does that thing that really good crime fiction does where it just delivers other messages so carefully and lightly, just about class and about education and about poverty, communities working together. It's just beautiful and I can't stop

reading them. And because I know that there are 20. Yeah. And I started at the beginning. And he's a lovely man, Robert Partridge. I just can't get out of them. So 14. Why did he change his name from Robert Partridge to... Well, he was an English. He was an English. teacher. Oh, okay. Yeah, and I suspect that he just needed to be somebody else when he was writing. In a small, relatively small community, I think if you're going to self-publish your stuff and you're a teacher, it's probably quite wise to have a...

Oh, I didn't think about that. Yeah, okay, it makes sense. Yeah, but they are just terrific. I think that they would tickle the fancy of many of our listeners. You're really safe when you're in those books. And, you know, I just, as we've talked about before, I can't do it. those crime books anymore or novels where the turn of the page might

bring you a twist that is so gruesome and horrible yeah can't do it actually I mean it is very much back to school time there was that definite mood on the tube this morning a lot of grumpy faces I noticed it's almost as though everyone's back in the routine first of September it's come round

you can't dodge reality so to our teaching listeners let's hope this is because it's a long old slug up to Christmas isn't it it is Yeah, best of luck. Hope you get some good students. Do you think we want to head towards a guest? Yes, we've got a guest, haven't we?

We've got a very, very reluctant guest. Well, it's sometimes very difficult to get people to come on and talk about their wares, but we have managed to, we've been relentless in our pursuit of this contributor, and he has finally agreed to bless us with his presence, talking about one of his heroines. Who is it? So the author Ian Dale, author broadcaster, very much friend of the show, Ian Dale with two eyes, has written a short but very effective and quite dense biography of Margaret Thatcher.

Yeah, and it was designed, he says, for young, the generation that didn't grow up with her, in her shadow, but who are probably living with, well, some of the impact of the decision she made or her government made. Does any of that make sense? It does. Yeah, well, she had such an enormous impact on both of our lives. I think it's hard for us to understand how future subsequent generations have not felt that impact. I mean, she changed our horizon, didn't she? Oh, good, 100%.

And I do find it weird that so many people know so little about her now. I know it's very easy to upset people with views about Margaret Thatcher. I would, I mean, I found that book interesting actually because Ian makes the point that she was an incredible pragmatist and she would do deals with people that you wouldn't necessarily expect her to. She would leave things alone if she felt it might be easier just for them to work out under their own steam without her direct involvement.

And she also had many, many enemies, many people who hated her guts. But she also did have courage. And I think even if you didn't agree with 70% of what she did, what you can't do is deny. the scale of her achievement. I mean, nobody would have expected that girl, born in Grantham in 1926, to a grocer and his wife, to become Prime Minister. I mean, it's still a remarkable story and she did do stuff. She did. There's a fantastic bit at the end where Ian details 12 myths about Margaret Thatcher and then debunks them. And if you didn't have time to read

anything else in the book. It was well worth reading those because actually, you know, committed to mythology quite a few untruths about her. So here's Ian Dale. We're going to talk about the paperback publication of your latest tome. It is a guide to the life and times and the impact of Margaret Thatcher. And it came from an interesting place, didn't it? You realizing that actually the huge impact that Margaret Thatcher has had on our lives, we are all of a certain age, just hasn't then created the same kind of impact in future generations. Some people don't really know very much about her. No, particularly younger generations.

And when I was first approached by the publisher to do the book, I said no, because I thought, well, what can I possibly add to the sum of human knowledge on Margaret Thatcher? And then I broke my hip and went to a gym to do physiotherapy rehab. And my personal trainer was 25 years old. And when he found out what I did for a living, he said, and now I've heard of Margaret Thatcher, but what did she do? And I thought, mate, I'm going to write this book for you. And I have because you have to be now, I think, 57 years old to have voted in the 1987 general election.

So to have voted either for or against Margaret Thatcher. She left office nearly 36 years ago. So you've had essentially three generations of people who've grown up not living through that age. If we were doing this program in 1926, as opposed to 2026, we'd now be talking about Disraeli. I mean, I think that really hits home just how long ago it was. And yet, depending on your point of view, she casts a shadow over modern day politics or she's still seen as a heroic figure to many. Was there anything that your much younger gym training friend could automatically say,

if you were going to do a kind of word cloud of Thatcher with him, what would he have come up with? I don't think he even knew that she was Prime Minister. Wow, okay. Because the work that we do, we take it for granted that people sometimes are as interested in these things as we are. And most people are not. They might watch the news once or twice a week. But they don't keep up to date with politics.

So I don't really blame people for that because most people have got lives to get on with. And they don't obsess about these things. They must be very happy. Well, they probably are much happier than we are. Did you want to also prove a point about the mythology that has sort of, surrounded Margaret Thatcher. Both Jane and I agree that the book is terrific. The myth-busting stuff at the end is absolutely fantastic. Well, it was done partly to try and give a perspective. I mean, I am a huge admirer of Margaret Thatcher, and I've never made any secret of that. But I hope you

would agree that the book is not a hagiography. There are plenty of bits in it where I do criticize her for things that she did wrong, which in 11 and a half years as Prime Minister, that is inevitable. You are inevitably going to get some things wrong. Well, lots of people in think she got a whole lot wrong. Well, of course they do and they have every right to think that. I've just gone through, I think I've done

12 myths, I could have done a lot more. But the fact that people still think that in some way she was a supporter of apartheid in South Africa, it's just not true. And I've provided the evidence to show that it wasn't true. Nelson Mandela actually thanked her for her role

in getting him out of prison and the dismantling of apartheid. I'd kind of rather take his views into account rather than necessarily people who didn't really know what they were talking about. The one that really surprised me was her commitment to tackling the climate crisis. I had made an assumption and I couldn't then really retrace it in my head where I'd got it from that she would be a non-believer in a climate emergency. She was the first world leader to make a speech on climate change. I think this was in 1989. I didn't know this either until I read Charles Moore's three-volume biography of her. I mean, that was why I thought I couldn't add to the sum of human knowledge because he'd done

such a brilliant job. And he found this speech that she'd made to the UN General Assembly in 1989. And he uncovered papers where she tried to get George H.W. Bush, Bush, Bush, the elder, who was then president of the USA on side. But coming from a sort of Texas oil background, she didn't succeed in that. Do you recall the night she became Prime Minister? No. You see, I do. And I've just said to few earlier I was going to bring in my 1979 diary

in which a breathless 14-year-old, me. Oh, you should have done. Oh, God. Ian, no, I would never have worked in broadcasting again. What a brat. I mean, absolutely every... I do remember the day because I was 16 and I stood as the Conservative candidate in my school's walk election.

Right, yes. But what was, I mean, nowadays we would find this unbelievable is that I didn't just beat the Labour Party. This is in Suffrableau and in the Comprehensive School in Essex. I beat the National Front candidate into second place. Now, the National Front were the equivalent of the British National Party. I mean, imagine that even being allowed to happen nowadays. It just wouldn't, would it?

Gosh, no, that does rather date. It's the only election I've ever won. Yes, it probably is. I do, I think you say in the book that your grandmother was very exercised, wasn't she? and my grandmother lived with us and I remember she asked me to knock on her bedroom door if Margaret Thatcher won the election in the middle of the night and I did when she did

and so she and thinks she was 79 in 1979 and for her it was a hugely significant event well go back five years or four years the day Margaret Thatcher was elected leader of the Conservative Party my grandmother also lived with us it happened in our generations didn't it and she was ill in bed and I remember watching the ITN news at 6.30 and they announced that she'd won.

I remember running up the stairs and how old was I, 12, and saying to my grandmother, Margaret Thatcher's won. And she burst into tears. Now, the uncharitable among your listeners might think, well, I'm not surprised. She knew what was coming. And I said to her afterwards,

why were you so emotional about that? And she said, because I never thought a woman could lead a political party. Well, Margaret Thatcher didn't believe at her staff, did she? No, she did a program, Val meets the VIPs. Do you remember that? I do. And she did this interview with a, there's about, I don't know, 20 children in the studio with Valerie Singleton.

And a little boy called Roger, who was age 10, said, Mrs Thatcher, do you think you'll be Prime Minister one day? And she just laughed and said, no, no, no, not in my lifetime, dear. Well, five years later she was. And I remember it was only, what, 12 years after that in 1987, my seven-year-old niece Emma said to me, Uncle Ian, can a man be Prime Minister? Children did really ask that, didn't they? Absolutely. Yeah, they did. They really did.

It was very rare for her to be a working, married mother in chambers at the time that she was exactly that. But how much of that, Ian, is about her and her indomitable spirit and her academic qualifications and how much decent men around her enabling her to pursue her ambitions? Well, it was in large part because she was married to. a businessman, Dennis, who they met when she was the parliamentary candidate in Dartford in 1950. And I think it is true to say. I mean, you'd hate to think this would happen now. But without him, his money, she couldn't have done it because she had twins in 1954. She didn't stand in the 55 general election because of that.

And his wealth gave her the ability to have a nanny. And she therefore managed, I mean, it's still difficult because she had to retrain as a lawyer. So she was studying to get her law qualifications and then practiced as a lawyer. So it wasn't easy, but it was a lot easier than it would have been for many others. You've got an introduction by Penny Morden. She said something that I was fascinated by Ian. She said, even if she were here in the age of social commentary, I think she would have chosen to say less, better.

To imagine Margaret Thatcher as a TikTok queen is quite something. How would she have said? I'll use covertly trying to compare to Andy Burnham, who seems to be addicted to TikTok. Now, I think in some ways this is a good thing. I do think politicians need to communicate in the way that different generations understand. But I think he's got to be quite careful about it. I think, did you want to see the barn cake one that he did? I'm thinking, is this really what a prime minister should be doing?

Now, maybe that's my age, but I just thought, no, no. You can absolutely do TikTok, but just be a little bit more careful. and don't sort of do things that just play into this thing. Well, I'm a northerner. You can trust me because I've got a northern accent. I mean, obviously, Jane plays that well very well, but even though she hasn't got a northern accent. Can I just, it's Kemi Piednock. Is she ambivalent about Margaret Thatcher?

Does she have no view on her at all day? No, no, she's not ambivalent. In fact, I remember, when I started writing this book, I was writing the chapter on hers lead of the opposition. And everything I kept researching, I kept thinking, well, that's a challenge. for Kemi Baudenock, and I texted her. And I said, look, I hope you're really reading up on Margaret Thatcher's period in opposition,

because there's a lot of parallels. And a couple of weeks later, she sent me a screenshot of a page she was reading in a biography by Patrick Cosgrave. She just circled a paragraph and said, this is my life. And I mean, she's clearly an admirer of Margaret Thatcher. But I think, like the rest of us,

even if we're admirers, we absolutely acknowledge you can't translate 1980s Thatcherism into 1920s. You just can't. I remember after COVID, I thought, I believe in low taxes in a small state. I'm never going to see that again in my lifetime. And I'm realistic enough to know that. You can still argue for it.

And I think, well, I'm pretty sure Kemi Badernaut would say the same thing. Right. Just a quick word on her biggest mistakes. I think that, I mean, there were a few. What did she really get wrong? Well, the poll tax is the obvious one, isn't it? Where she lost the ability that she had for the first, what, seven or eight years, where she had her finger on the pulse of public opinion

and the poll tax just completely ruined that. She also became a little bit regal in her last couple of years. Remember, we are a grandmother. I mean, what normal person says that? She lost touch with her backbenches. I mean, Kirstama fell partly because he was never in touch with his backbenches. He made no effort to get to know them. Even after a year, there were still some that had never met him.

Well, she didn't make that mistake, certainly not in the first few years. But I think the poll tax, I think also the reality, action to the fact that manufacturing industry started to go. She didn't, there were schemes to help communities sort of move into a new era, but they weren't big enough. I think the will was there, but looking back, they ought to have done a lot more. And there are still communities, certainly the north and the northeast of this country, that even today, you utter her word in a former coal mining village, and they will effectively

spit on you. Can you imagine this country without her? Where would we be in 2026 if we hadn't had that chair? Who knows? I mean, I think we were heading for a catastrophe in 1979 and whatever her faults, whatever she did wrong, I think she did save the country in many ways. We were seen as a sick man of Europe. The strikes were just overwhelming. I remember going to Germany on a school exchange and they just laughed at us. And I think she rescued us from that. I think the Forklund's War restored our international reputation, showed the Soviet Union that we wouldn't be a pushover. So I think we would be a weaker country had she not been prime minister.

And if you think about it, since the Second World War, there have only really been three significant prime ministers, people who've changed the political weather, Clement Attlee, her and Tony Blair. Tony Benn, you had this phrase, sort of you're either a weather vein or a signpost in politics. and most of our prime ministers since Tony Blair have been weather veins. And I mean, one of the tests of Andy Burnham is, is he going to be like that or not? He's made an interesting start, hasn't he?

If you compare it to how Factor started with her message of hope, so she used the weather is despair, may you bring hope. It's a St. Francis of a C-C quote. I mean, he did pretty much the same thing. didn't he? He wanted to bill himself as the ultimate PM of her. Whenever new Prime Minister's come into power, they either do what Sarah Palin used to call the Hopi-Changey thing or stick with Nurse for Fear of Worse.

And Kirstarmer did the Doom-Laden. Yeah, yeah. And I think that was one of his big mistakes. We didn't want somebody to say it's all going to be clear and doom. We needed to get vibed. Well, we're certainly getting vibed at the moment, aren't we? Pragmatism. You speak a lot about Margaret Thatcher's pragmatic approach to a range of issues. I think Northern Ireland is one of them, wasn't it? Yeah. Every Prime Minister, well, ever since the late 1960s, has had to deal

with problems in Northern Ireland. Most of them would rather not deal with it. They know nothing about it. They're not interested in it. And yet, somehow, eventually most of them kind of get religion over it. That's just an inappropriate thing to say, isn't it? You know what I mean? And Secretary is a State for Northern Ireland. It's usually seen as a a job you really don't want in cabinet. But virtually all of them, once they've done it for a few months, think it is the best job in cabinet. She didn't really know much about Northern Ireland. She was an instinctive unionist, but that was about it. But of course, very quickly after the election in 79, well, in fact, just before the election, Erie Neve was blown up in the House

of Commons, one of her chief lieutenants. Then, of course, Lord Mountbatten was murdered in August 1979 so it was a real baptism of fire and she was very quick to demonstrate to the people of Northern Ireland even if she wasn't an expert on the politics of Northern Ireland she was with them and I think there was a bombing in Warren Point it was on the same day that Lord Mountbatten was murdered and the next day she went over to Northern Ireland and did a walk about and I mean that I think took some guts and I think that really impressed people well it's certainly impressed people on one side of the divide. Yeah, I do also remember, even if you didn't like a single one of Margaret Thatcher's policies,

and I absolutely respect that there are many people couldn't stand up. The courage of the woman, after the Brighton bomb, for example, giving that speech at the Tory conference, unbelievable poise and just raw courage. How on earth she did that? I'll never know. No, and I think in those circumstances, you find out what someone is like as a person, and I think the adrenaline flows. she was determined that she wasn't going to give any signal to the IRA that they'd won any sort of victory. And there's that famous scene, I think after she came out of the Lewis police station was taken there, saying to John Cole, who was then the BBC political editor, the conference will go on at 9 o'clock.

Now, I'm sure her speech changed a bit, but there she was at 9 o'clock, ready to make her final speech to the conference. And then the following Sunday, she was at church at Checkers, and she was seen shedding a tear. And she said afterwards it was because this was the day I was never meant to see. And I think that's when it really hit her what could have happened. You do talk in the book about her thoughts as she entered her third age. And I'd actually not read before Ian that she had had very many regrets about the path that she had taken, which was definitely one of a woman who wanted a big successful career and a woman who also had a family. But you say that she did come to recognise that one suffered at the other's expense?

Yes. I think she, I don't know whether she ever admitted that she wasn't a particularly great mother to, certainly to Carol. I think Mark was the apple of her eye. But Carol, I think had a difficult times. She always felt that she was never equal to Mark, even though they were twins. And several of her friends have said that after she left office in 1990, she never had another happy day. Because she thought being Prime Minister was what she was put on this earth to do. And I think anybody who finishes a job, and I suspect the three of us think that we were put on this earth to be on the radio. and the days that that stops. No, I know that I'm not.

Well, I think you were. Maybe by my colleagues. Particularly when you lose your job, when you're not expecting to, and you can't understand why your colleagues would get rid of you after you've won them three elections, you've won a lot of them their seats, I think psychologically she found that incredibly difficult to cope with. I don't know whether she suffered what we would now call depression, but I suspect that there was a form of depression going on there.

Well, it does sound like it. Ian Dale, with his biography of Margaret Thatcher, paperback available now. Very reasonable prices. Unlike in Norway... God knows how much it costs in Norway. They cost most of your weak salary, wouldn't it? Well, maybe books aren't as much. Maybe it's just the food stuff as that are.

I don't know. I didn't investigate. I saw great big... You had to literally fight your way through piles of depression. Joe Nesbo books at the airport before you could get in, before you can even get into the country. I don't know how much they were. I can't read a Joe Nesbo anymore because I do find some of the things that happen to bodies

just too much for my little self. Oh dear. Right, okay. Well, no, I'm kind of with you. That's why I'm happy to spend a bit of time with the Casillais and their great big, beanie, meaties. But I'm still thinking about that meat pack.

Blimey. I don't know how the people have opened go about their business if they're going to be so restricted by the amount of meat products you've eaten. Absolutely extraordinary. Right, do let us know if you can do better than that meat pack.

It's Jane and Fee at times.orgia. It's quite a task I've set me up. And if you do get an email from either of us seriously asking for money, just pay no attention. Pay no heed. Please. No, pay no attention at all.

Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow. to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.