Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Malibu Garvey? (with London Hughes)

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

Jane and Fi once again try to stay on track and fail miserably but along the way they cover Boots opening times, how Jane would fare in LA and uncomfortable workplace banter. Plus, they're joined by comedian London Hughes to discuss her frank and funny new memoir 'Living My Best Life, Hun'. Her book is out now. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I fell over my slippers when I got out of bed. You've got some very sensible shoes on, though. I'm pleased. My trainer's on, yeah. I mean, have you seen the weather? It's terrible, isn't it? So both, I think, two out of four members of our production team today were basically looking at boots in order to cheer ourselves up.

Yes. Not the chemist one, don't go there again, but the actual... Well, you can go, I mean, I'm not saying don't go to boots. No, I was up there this morning, actually. Yeah. At the crack of. What time does your local open? 8.30.

8.30, yes. It slightly takes me by surprise, because I sometimes think they'll be open at 8. And they are if they're near some tube stations. But not always. It's amazing sometimes the topics that we can get on to. But let's

move away from the opening times of well-known chemists because we've got some cracking correspondence actually. People do want to carry on just saying a couple of things about the Russell Brand Times, actually, not specifically to do with the man himself. But this one is from Kind Regards, Keep Me Anonymous.

I'm struggling with the whole brand thing and I'm wondering whether, as feminists, it's something you could help me work through on your show. Well, we're very happy to do some work throughs, aren't we? Oh, very much so. Yes. I'm pretty much the same age as Brand. I was out partying hard in the early noughties and it was a tough time for women. We had lad mags everywhere you look, middle aged men leering over Britney Spears in school uniform

and Gail Porter naked on the Houses of Parliament without her consent. I think Brand was behaving as many young men were at that time, albeit with a greater number of women due to being a celebrity. And I would hazard a guess that the majority of women between the ages of, say, 18 and 28 were sexually assaulted in those years. Certainly those of us who were going clubbing, getting drunk and sometimes going home with men we met. Probably every woman who took a bus or went to a crowded pub too. And I don't mean to minimise the effect that Brand has had on women who've spoken up, just saying that there's lots and lots of us who feel that way too.

I'm not defending Brand either. It's slightly cathartic to see it being called out after all this time. He does deny all of the allegations against him, and it's important that we carry on saying that. But our correspondent ends by saying, I'm saying that we shouldn't be shocked. The lack of respect for women was everywhere. And we were all witnesses to men being told they could treat women like this. And women went along with it because that's the message we were getting about our value too. I hope my thoughts make sense on some level. I would value your thoughts on this

too. Well, when was the golden age of respect for women? I don't think there ever was one, Jane. I think that there was just a changing underbelly of accountability because women were able to speak up. I think that is the only difference. Yeah, I think that's right. But I think that our correspondent does make a very good point that has been made by quite a few people this week of speak up. I think that is the only difference. Yeah, that's right. But I think that our correspondent does make a very good point that has been made by quite a few people this week of a certain age, that what we were sold as empowerment in the 1990s has turned out for an awful lot of people to be a very dubious thing. Yeah. If empowerment was about us strutting our stuff and pushing up our bosoms in wonder bras and wearing, you know, very little when we went out of an evening

and taking control of our sex lives, that to many women ended in trouble and pain and anxiety and worse. But the general feeling was that's what you should be doing if you wanted to be a really kind of age defining young woman. And I struggle with it myself. I struggle with that version of myself in the 1990s, which is an older woman now, I can see as being incredibly vulnerable, aping male behavior in a way I didn't really want to do, putting myself in situations. Now I would just be so horrified if either of my children were in those situations.

But I felt that's what was expected of me. That was my time. And I do, I feel uncomfortable with it now. Really, really uncomfortable. I wonder, so I suppose by the noughties, I've got, I mean, I had a child by then, so I just wasn't out there in the way that our correspondent is describing. And I understand what you're saying about your 1990s.

I don't know whether, I suppose, did I behave in a way that, I don't regret anything I did. Did I make myself vulnerable? I suppose I did. But then how much more vulnerable was I than my mother in the 50s and 60s? I honestly wouldn't know. Well, I don't know. It will always be hard to compare as our correspondent said, is just it's not always about crimes. It's about what you thought was progress, but actually really turned out not to be. And I think that is just quite painful to consider. If it was your time to become a young adult woman in the 1990s, I think you would just sold something which you imagined was progress, and it just wasn't.

It really, really wasn't. And maybe earlier eras were just a bit more honest, actually. Well, this whole business, I mean, it is true. It's just a fact that bands like Led Zeppelin wrote songs about very young schoolgirls, didn't they? I'm not making this up. This was very much out there. And I think there's a survey out today, it's on the BBC News website,

about the amount of street harassment that young women are subjected to in 2023. And if you've had a daughter, you'll know this, the stuff that's shouted from vans, and not just vans, I don't want to suggest that it's only people, men, driving vans who shout abuse at young women, but it certainly happens. And there doesn't seem to be any sign of that changing or getting better at all, if anything. That's got worse.

So, oh dear, it's all very gloomy, isn't it? Well, it is, but it doesn't stop being gloomy by not talking about it no but i mean you know we're going to get onto the interview with london hughes in a minute and of course london makes the perfectly sound point in the conversation we have with her that it shouldn't be for female comedians to be calling out men it should be for i miss the age old thing for men to change their behavior and it's not all it really isn't all men uh but there are too many of them and i wouldn't say they were diminishing in number i think it's probably the opposite it would seem anyway i will get on to london a little

bit later but um we don't want to be too downhearted do we i mean it's it does feel a bit it does all feel a bit negative i've got myself into a slight trough of despair but i think it's good i was meant to be interviewing a big actress earlier today and she oh i know well i think we can say because she's going to come back felicity kendall disappointed you i was looking forward to it. No, she'll be back. She'll be back. Don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. But I think it's really good to spend a bit of time in the trough of despair, actually, Joan,

because then, you know, you don't change things through silence. So if there are lots and lots of women our age who felt uncomfortable with who they were in the 1990s, maybe you've had kids of your own, and they're now just about to head out into the adult world and you just have a bit more to say from your experience of that um you know and and for me i'm just never going to be able to square that circle of female empowerment and very provocative

female where your sex on the outside i I just find that uncomfortable now. I think for me, empowerment has just been about completely different things. Rather than, hey, look at me in my PVC catsuit, I'm over here. And that was me in the 1990s. But it's not me now, Jay. That's what I'm trying to say. So I'm very much grateful to people who've sent some really, really thoughtful emails in. Beck in particular has said exactly the same thing as our anonymous emailers. So thank you very much indeed. I found it good to kind of hear those stories. Let's change tack, she said, in a

very professional sort of way. Such a sailing metaphor as well. She is tacking. She's going about everybody. I've read Swallows and Amazons. I've read all his books, actually. I love those stories. Anyway, this is from Victoria, who has sent us something that she says was something that passed for humour. So I'll just read you the email. Thank you for this, Victoria. Very interesting to hear Rory Catherine Jones discussing the working atmosphere for secretaries at the BBC years ago.

This is because Rory's memoir, Ruskin Park, largely features his mother Sylvia's workingaries at the BBC years ago. This is because Rory's memoir Ruskin Park largely features his mother Sylvia's working life at the BBC in the 40s and beyond. Victoria says my father worked for the BBC in transmitter group engineering for the whole of his working life. My mother met him when she worked there as his secretary. They later married and had me. In old documents from those years, I came across this attached extract entitled The Art of Keeping Your Secretary Happy, which is from a BBC transmitter group services newsletter from 1984. I didn't get that one, actually.

I was a member of the group, but I didn't get that newsletter. Victoria says, My jaw hit the floor when I read this, and I did ponder what passed for humour in the workplace in the 1980s, that somebody thought what's written would be amusing made me feel a little bit ill. It's also nuts to consider the great irony that the person who wrote it, almost definitely a man,

would have had their secretary type it up. I've got three adult daughters now, and much as there's still a lot to be done i'm glad this kind of rubbish would never be tolerated in places of work today do you want to just read some of the tips out okay this this by the way is i'm sure victoria it was intended as a joke as humor but it does at least take you in to start with the other side because that's like leading tips on the other side here we go always glance at your watch when she arrives in the morning it'll keep her on her toes number two having her serve your coffee is one of the delightful perks of executive life don't

disturb the chain of command by occasionally bringing her a cup at number three you should never do that tell her all about your plans for a holiday in Saint-Tropez. It's the little personal touches that humanise the boss-secretary relationship. Number four, don't ask her if she's had a nice weekend. She may start to tell you about it and you have a lot of important things to attend to. OK, OK, I've heard enough. Right.

I mean, yes, I'm sure that was meant to be a little joke back in 1984. But it's only funny because it's so true, isn't it? I was already 20. I wasn't actually working, but I was the age of my youngest daughter now. And that is heartbreaking. By the way, when Victoria says that she doesn't think it would happen in the workplace now, I'm pretty certain that stuff far worse than that does the rounds on various encrypted WhatsApp groups,

men-only WhatsApp groups. I dread to think what they're saying. What do you think? You and I would be horrified at some of the stuff that is going around on the all-male WhatsApp groups. And I don't think... I'm not a member of any all-female WhatsApp groups. You are.

No, I haven't finished that sentence. Oh, go on. I'm not a member of any all-women WhatsApp groups that are very crude. No. Some of them are quite gossipy, but they're not very crude. Nobody's sending around any kind of pictures. No, not those sort of pictures. But I've heard tell that on men's groups they do.

One of my friends is a little bit saucy on a WhatsApp group I'm in. Really? But I often just don't understand. But what's the sauciest thing? Oh, there was a bit of, there was the usual hacks about topiary this week. Somebody needed a bit of garden maintenance doing. Yeah. Could anybody recommend

a gardener? You know, the kind of thing. A good wax. Is that what you're talking about? No, I'm genuinely, you see, this is your mind. This is the woman who has worn a PVC catsuit. But that's because you said it was saucy. I said it was, well, it went there because she put on the WhatsApp, WhatsApp group, can anybody recommend a gardener? I've got a good gardener.

I've got a bush that needs trimming. Okay. And then people made lots of gags off the back of that. Exactly. And it was very tawdry. And I did think what if the authorities find out about this? I'll never ever work again. I didn't even say anything. I was just in the group.

Well, that's dangerous. Lurking. Because, yeah, legally, if you're part of a WhatsApp group and there's slander or libel or worse going down on it, you are affected actually. You are affected, actually. I'm being serious now. I've got my serious journalistic voice back on. So don't be part of the problem, Jane.

You know, this is not a comment on his politics, but we have just had to sit in the studio and listen to Rishi Sunak doing his watering down the net zero target speech, which, you know, live on Times Radio. This is important stuff. It was an important announcement. But I've got to say that I find his delivery utterly, and it's not even soporific, it's just extraordinarily,

it's just bad. And surely he must have help with public speaking, but he's so sort of softly spoken and there's no punch, there's no welly. But I don't care, Jane. care oh i genuinely don't care i really do i honestly i found it utterly utterly soporific because you could be a really uh you know terrific orator and have all of those flourishes i like that and all that kind of stuff and and i think that that makes it easier for you to sell whatever message it is that you're selling i would rather somebody was really really really dull in their delivery. So I actually concentrate a

bit more on what is being delivered. So you'd buy from Rishi Sunak? No, it's not that I'd buy from Rishi Sunak. It's just sometimes I find that, you know, those people who are just superb at public speaking can carry a whole room. Boris Johnson. You are energised by the delivery. And, you know, you can have a whole room. Boris Johnson! You are energised by the delivery. And, you know, you can have a really, really amazing pizza delivery driver, gets there at the right amount of time, pizza's nice or not and all that kind of stuff,

but if the ingredients aren't right in the pizza, what's the point? Remember Boris Johnson's? You're watching that Laura Koonsberg State of Play. I am. State of Chaos. State of Chaos, yeah. State of Play was a rather apocalyptic drama series. It was one of my favourite political thrillers. Yeah.

Do you remember it with Jason Isaacs? I do now. Yeah. You mentioned it, yeah. He's from the Wirral. Or is it Liverpool? Anyway, yes, in the most, episode two of State of Chaos, you get another chance to enjoy then Prime Minister Boris Johnson's speech to the CBI.

Oh, Percy Pig. Pepper Pig. Pepper Pig, sorry. Get your pigs right. Sorry. This is why you're not in government. No, but maybe he's a prime... You don't know Percy from Pepper.

What hope? Maybe he's a prime example of a man who relied on the ability to deliver without actually checking the ingredients. Well, you might be wrong. He couldn't even find the menu in that speech, could you? It was so, watching it again was just a whole new world of pain. Oh, it's awful, isn't it?

Yeah, it is awful, that one. Right, this one comes from Barnes. I don't know whether that's a name or a place, but if it's a name, that's just delightful. Do you know anyone called Chiswick? Jane's memory of Sing Something Simple, Sing Something Simple is completely at odds with my own fond memories of listening to it with my mum on Sunday evenings. Probably helped by the fact that I completed

all homework by Saturday midday at the latest. I just couldn't bear it hanging over me. Now I think the world divides into people who finished their homework early in the weekend so they could enjoy their leisure time and people who left it until Monday morning so they could enjoy their leisure time. And people who left it until Monday morning so they could enjoy their leisure time.

They're just two opposites, aren't they? But Barnes goes on to say, I agree with Fee's picking up of Jane over her pronunciation of croissant. It definitely comes across as croissant. Another memory of my mum who called them croissants. Oh, yeah, but that's absolutely fine. And somebody actually sent us something that we can go and watch on the YouTube where we can find out exactly how we should be pronouncing croissant.

I have been taken to task by Mary who says, I was appalled at your derisive tone to the mother whose daughter was leaving home to go to uni. I thought you were too dismissive of her feelings and a bit cavalier. When my daughter left, she took a gap year and went to Africa with Canada World Youth and I honestly went into a life-threatening depression. You don't know what this mother is going through.

She's probably trying to be a good role model to hopefully guide a young girl into womanhood while balancing a job, a home to run and other children in various stages of development. She might also be going through menopause, have parents she's responsible for, or a husband who's going through a midlife crisis or a change in a job or have no job at all. As part of your programme, you do discuss the above issues at length and do show compassion alongside your humour. So why the flippancy at a woman who's at the same time of

life as at least Jane? No, thank you for that, Mary. And I hope I wasn't too dismissive. I certainly didn't intend to be. I think what I was aiming to do is just tell her that it really wasn't that bad, because I know I did feel really maudlin the first time it happened to me. And apart from the very practical uh she's now back living at home again um it it wasn't as bad as i felt in those actually early hours of her departure to university that was a bit grim but then things did get better very quickly and actually i wonder whether this happened to other people you start to have really good phone conversations with your children when they're away

because all of a sudden they're a little bit more perhaps a little bit more grateful for whatever it was you were able to provide and you just start talking a bit more because you know when teenagers go to their rooms at the age of about 13 you tend not to have incredibly lengthy heart-to-hearts all that often

no and you don't because you are always thinking they're here and I'll catch them later. So there is that imperative. But I suppose we should be careful as well because it must be really awful if you don't end up having great phone conversations with your teen who's left. Well, there are some, of course,

who can't wait to leave you completely behind. But that's not for any malicious reason. It's because they're having a great time and that's really what you want as well. But erring on the side of doom, I would worry so much if the kids didn't keep in touch with me. I wouldn't be thinking

they're out partying. I'd be thinking oh my gosh, are they alright? Got trapped in their room. All of that. Trapped in their room. Trapped. So in our house, we've got a really, really dodgy doorknob on the kitchen and sometimes one of us does get trapped in our room

and we've had to phone each other when we're out and about. Can you come home, please? I'm stuck in the kitchen. I've been in the kitchen since half past five this morning. Oh, no, it's true. Can I just say we've both got to give a shout-out to Laura, who is Lorna's friend. Laura is Spanish, so her name is pronounced differently,

but Lorna can't work out how to type it phonetically. And Lorna is in Liverpool in capital letters. Yes. So do you want to say hello to Laura? Hello. Hello, Laura. It could be Laura, couldn't it? No, it won't be.

Not if she's from Liverpool. Why would it be Laura? No, Lorna's from Liverpool. Oh, Lorna. God's sake. And Laura is from Spain. Right, right. And Lorna wrote him because of the croissant thing too.

I can't go there anymore. Just call it whatever, pastry. Just Lorna wrote him because of the croissant thing too. I can't go there anymore. Just call it whatever, pastry. Just call it a pastry. Do you know that the King and Queen have gone to France for a state visit? I do know. And that they've got a range of guests at the state banquet tonight at Versailles, which I always think is quite a, I don't know, I mean, it's quite a loaded location. It's the scene of some crimes.

Mind you, so is nearly every palace in this country. Yeah, I can't look at the Tower of London, which we can almost see from the window. It's such a... It's so frightening. Do you think in a previous life you might have been in there? Yes, I do think that. Do you think you were a raven or a criminal?

I think probably a criminal. I don't want to be a raven. Although, do you know, there was a raven called Garvey at one point. I don't know. I never knew why. What do you mean there was a raven called Garvey? Well, because the ravens have all got names. Okay.

And at one point there was one called Garvey. I don't know why, I could say. I wonder why that stuck anyway. There was a point to this. Oh, yeah. Guests include at the state banquet in Versailles tonight, Hugh Grant and Didier Drogba. Wow.

Wow. Why is Hugh Grant on the list? I have absolutely no idea. I can understand Didier. Yeah. But Hugh Grant, he's just passing through. Perhaps he, I don't know, perhaps he spends time in France. Perhaps he's in France making a film. Although films aren't really being made at the moment, are they? Perhaps they are in France. Who knows? Anyway, he's there.

Interesting. Well, it's good to be across all world news. I'd just like to offer a little bit extra. No, you certainly have. Shall we talk about London Hughes? Yes. Okay. So London Hughes is our big guest today. She's quite a force to be reckoned with, isn't she? She's a comedian, writer. She really, really, really wanted from a very young age to be a huge star. So she worked her socks off to do that in this country. She applied and became a BBC presenter. She had her own comedy series on Radio 4. Phoebe Waller-Bridge was very kind and gave her a kind of leg up in the industry. It's interesting, isn't it? When you read the book, which is very funny, by the way,

there are some people who emerge as rather heroic in the sense of their keenness to reach out and help people making their way up. And she was definitely one of them. But London won quite a few awards, Funny Woman of the Year and she was the first black nominee for the Edinburgh Comedy Award but she really keenly felt that she didn't get the breaks in this country that she should get on account of being a young black woman. So ultimately she took herself away from bad vibes Britain which is what she calls

this country to go and find fame in America. And it's really paid off for her. So she's been taken under the wing of Kevin Hart. She's good friends with Dave Chappelle. She's going to all kinds of parties making all kinds of connections. And she's got a big movie in the offing and loads and loads of offers. I mean, she's really nailed it, actually. She's broken America. Broken America. And she's written a book which is called Living My Best Life, Hun. We did need to start the interview and we did ask her if it was OK to do this, didn't we? Yes, we did.

If we could ask for her thoughts on Russell Brand because she put out a couple of tweets at the weekend after the Sunday Times, Times and Dispatch's investigation into Russell Brand's behaviour that said that she had been warned off him by people in the industry. So that is where the interview starts. It's worth noting as well that they also shared an agent for a couple of years. I genuinely support women

and I feel like it's so hard when women come forward about anything. And it's just so much. I just feel like the first thing we should be doing is listening to these women. So I support these women. And what happened was I just went online. And after the documentary came out, and the Times piece came out, I just was like, cool, I support these women, I believe them. I went online, I just saw so much hate for these women. And so I just decided to talk about what I knew about Russell. And that's what those tweets were.

And it was just from my knowledge, I wanted to add some colour to the situation, but all in all, I support these women, I believe the women. And I think we should all be listening to them, honestly. So what was your experience? What did you know back in the day? I've never met the man. I've never met him. But all I, like what I said in the tweets,

I just said that when I joined the agency, that we had the same agent. I was so excited to have the same agent as him. I was a huge fan of him. And yeah, I was told that I shouldn't, unsolicited, I was told I shouldn't have sex with him and stay clear of him because once he has sex with women, he likes to, I guess, pursue them,

have sex with them, and then he doesn't want to be around them anymore. They make him feel sick. So he would have those women removed from the working around him, the agency, people, or whoever. And, you know, my agent warned me to stay clear because she didn't want that happening to me and I did was it done in quite an official way or a bit of

an off no no official like leave that man and like stay clear of him and the thing is I'm not that people are like I don't know what it is I don don't know why people are, like, pretend... I don't know if they're pretending to be shocked, but from what I've seen online, there's a lot of, oh, my gosh, and it's just like, what are you talking about? You're acting like we didn't all know this about this man. But the thing is, London, that there are people who clearly knew. Yes.

I, you know, I'm not in showbiz. I'm in the media. I had heard rumours. Yeah. We'd heard rumours. We've all heard rumours. But most people hadn't yeah and the thing is I think when you hide in plain sight which is it was a great name

because he definitely said you know I have a sex addiction so you know I do all these things I have sex addiction so even when my agent told me about his behaviour I was like oh it must be because of his sex addiction like that was my 20 i was 22 at the time i was like oh i kind of naively was just like oh okay that's just how he is because he's a sex addict i guess women make him feel sick but you weren't you weren't the only one no because we were all fooled by this yeah i mean lots of people quite sensible people educated people found him funny gave him work, worked for him. And the thing is, I was a huge fan of this man.

This isn't someone that I'm like, oh, yeah, I can't stand him. I was a huge fan of him, but I just knew at 22, don't go to the after parties, don't hang around him. I knew that and I stood clear of him. And so you say in the book also that you were just a huge fan of what he did on stage, of what his comedy was. Yeah. And do you think, looking back on it,

that your comedy was influenced by that kind of incredibly open, sexualised content that now when we watch Russell Brand, we go, oh, my oh my gosh you know we all watch that made that made him a star i wouldn't i didn't i didn't find i didn't like his stand-up material i liked his performance i liked how he would like strike around on stage and he'd flounce around he was really high energy and so that's why i admired like but what he was talking about wasn't my thing i I wasn't really into that. But I think when a man talks about that on stage,

it's very different to when a woman does it. When a woman does it, it's feminist. It's sexy. It's iconic. When a man does it, it's not the same. Well, what is it then? I don't know. Watching that documentary and hearing him talk,

I did feel uncomfortable. I don't know. I that documentary and hearing him talk, I did feel uncomfortable. I don't know. I don't think it's funny. I honestly don't. You don't think it's funny now because we know what we know. And he, by the way, denies the allegations. Yeah, I don't think I thought it was funny then either. But I did really like him as a host.

I really liked his presenting style. Well, you weren't the only one. He got work. Yeah. So, look, I don't want to make this a thing about Russell. It's about my book. And my book's called Live My Best Life. And I want to, you know, be...

It's so... The timing of all of this is crazy. Like, I literally came here to England to promote my book. And then this stuff came out. And, you know, morally, I just couldn't sleep at night knowing that people were saying negative things about these women and without saying something on Twitter. And what I've said on Twitter,

I've said to people's faces at the time, 10 years ago, when I was warned about this, I wasn't the only one that was warned about him. I have female comedian friends have also been warned about him. I've spoken to female comics about him. This is not a thing of like, oh, nobody knew. Like i've told several people they've told several people we knew we didn't know i personally didn't know it was as deep as it was i didn't know it was as bad as it was but i definitely knew for lack of a better word that he was he was dodgy when it comes to women

and he he had a i felt that from the rumors I'd heard and what I'd experienced from other people telling me things about him it didn't seem like he had a huge respect a lot of respect for women you're absolutely right that we need to talk about you and we need to talk about the book one final question on that not specifically about him though have you ever felt as a young woman in the industry that you have been vulnerable in a man's company yes yeah he is not the only comedian that you can say these things about do you think that there's somebody other people out there who might have the same level of yes you do okay in this country or america no not in america i've never experienced it in america in england yes okay what do we do with those open secrets

london but this is the thing. It's kind of like not up to us. It's up to men to stop doing this to women. It's like not... We're not the Ninja Turtles. Women in England don't need to come together to stop these men... Oh, these open...

It's up to the women to save... No! Men, stop being creepy, dodgy, disrespectful weirdos and treat women with respect. We wouldn't have to have open secrets. We have WhatsApp groups. We warn each other about these men. We all't have to have open secrets. We have WhatsApp groups. We warn each other about these men. We all tell each other, don't do gigs with this guy.

There's only so much we, the women, can do when we're the ones that are being abused by these men. This conversation should be for the men. What are the male comics going to do about other male comics that are just like Russell? What are they going to do about it because it's their problem can I just say

let's give her a round of applause for that because that we really agree and needed to be said I'm here to promote my book let's get on to my best life and he's coming and ruining it we're in stupidness

can we just say Jesus alright let's acknowledge yes that you are a changed woman. Now, Fee and I have met you before. You say in your book, and I really liked you for this,

that your drink of choice was tea with eight sugars. Today, we offer you a tea and you ask for what? Herbal tea. No sugar. She's left us in so many ways, Jane. It's gorgeous thanks for my tea thank you ladies

also can I say I haven't seen you in like how many years five years six years five years you look exactly the same both of you

I think that's good exactly the same literally exactly the same no you're right I'm going to take it in a more positive way take it in a positive way that's all that we can

hope for at this age gorgeous you know not to not to kind of deviate from the path too much your book is really hilarious london and what struck me all the way through is just your thirst for fame and success unashamed really really unashamed so why what was that inner thing when you were tiny that made you want to be outside of a normal life really i don't know do you know what it was just this innate feeling that i had deep down that like you know some people just know what they were meant to do like there's some people that from a young age i love playing the piano they've always wanted to be a pianist and they're're now a pianist. There's people that just know. I was a kid that just was obsessed with the telly box, that bright thing just flashing in my

face. It became my best friend. I was obsessed with everything on it. And yeah, my mommy, I say in the book, my mom said that when I was five, she found me trying to get on TV by climbing around the back of it. Like, literally, I wanted to be inside that box. And so I tried many ways to get famous. They're all in the book. They're hilarious. And even to the point where I called up, I asked my mum and dad to get me an agent

and they laughed and I was like, fine, because I'm like six at the time. Six, seven, and they laughed and I'm like, fine. So I'm figuring out ways to get an agent. And I just knew, I saw an advert for the Yellow Pages and saw that like, all the jobs, if you're looking for a job, find it in the Yellow Pages. So I looked in the Yellow Pages for agents. And what I found was estate agents. And I called up estate agents, asking them to, I knew that the word was representation. So you have to say, I'm looking for representation. So I was like, hi, I want to be Black Britney Spears.

I'm looking for representation. Can you help me? I want to be a British female Will Smith. I'm looking for representation. Can you help me? And yeah, my mum's number got banned from Foxton's and Bessarie's. All the local... I bet not before they tried to sell you a small semi-detached house.

You know what I mean? Hennell dashing. Oh, yeah. But yeah, I was hungry for it. Can we hear about, I mean, school, school just wasn't big enough to contain you, was it? It was hopeless. No, no, no.

I feel like school, thing is, I got bullied in school. So like, that's another thing. People just, I wanted to talk about bullying in the book because people who have heard me, see me about, know my stuff, the one thing they would say about me is she's loud and she's confident and I think people need to understand that like

that loud and confident girl was once you know not was once like a I wouldn't want to say shy but I definitely was low lacking confidence I my self-esteem was really low and yeah I just kind of wanted to talk about the bullying in school school in the book because I just wanted people to realise that like, even if they're feeling low worth now, that's not going to be their future. And there were some really, really mean girls, weren't there? You say in a passage where you write about a birthday party that you were having in Pizza... In Pizza Hut.

In Pizza Hut, where nobody turned up. And you ask the reader before you tell them the story not to feel sorry for you and not to cry. But let me just say, I felt terrible for you and was really moved by that. And I mean, I don't disagree with anything that you say in the book, but I retain my right as a reader to feel deeply sympathetic for you in that situation, actually.

You know what? You can have your right as a reader. That's very kind. Can you tell us about it, though? Because it was awful, actually, London. Yeah, it was. It was really sad. Basically, I had a pizza out party and I was so excited and I invited all my friends but my mum said at the time, like, she couldn't afford to pay for...

I invited, like, 15 girls and she was like, she can't afford to pay for the pizzas for everybody but she'll pay for all the drinks and unlimited ice cream and back then unlimited ice cream for kids was like having a free bar so i was like we're gonna live our best lives and pizzas at the time were like four pounds so everyone had pocket money let's go there buy a four pound pizza unlimited ice cream live our best lives so that was the plan and then all the popular girls in my school i guess decided that no one should go so they told everybody not to come to the party and uh they basically were like I'm not paying for a pound your mom's really cheap we're not doing

that and they basically convinced all the less popular girls to not go and all my friends to not go so I showed up at this party this massive table with my little crown and my pepperoni pizza and like yeah there was like no one there and uh I was really sad I was eating my pizza alone waiting for my friends to show up they didn't show up and then like the door opened and like 20 girls from school all came in and I was like oh my god they're here like they did show up but no they went and sat at the table next to me and had their own pizza party in my face and just laughed at me the whole time where are they now exactly yeah probably in prison so they're definitely not on the times radio right now

no that's true definitely not we're talking to comedian london h Hughes, who is now officially big in America and seems to have left Croydon behind forever. The book is full of great anecdotes about her showbiz career. It wasn't all glamour, though. She started off as a kind of warm up person on a porn channel. Babe station. Babe station. She's pretending not to know. She's one of the founders. I'm not going to. On a porn channel. Yes, well, I used to work for Radio 4. Just go with that, please.

What was that like? So, I wanted my quest to be on TV. I did not discriminate. TV was TV, you know? I've done CBBC, I've done Babestation. TV is TV, OK? Anything goes. News night's next.

Literally. It probably's next. Literally. Well, it probably will be. It probably will be, actually, after today. After what's been going on. Oh, this press run has been insane, ladies. Anyway, I basically was, for lack of a better word, a fluffer. Yes, you were. I was a fluffer.

So, basically, when Babestation was airing back in the early 2000s, in the daytime there was no porn, but they had to keep the channel on to pay the bills. So what do you do with a porn channel where you can't show porn? Well, you have London Hughes telling jokes and fully clothed. So that was my job. And I had this thing called Flirt UK and it was live TV. And back when you could text the bottom of the screen

and it would have like people talking to each other, like a little chat room at the bottom. So I was in the top screen in the corner, chat room in the bottom. And then I'd be like, hi, you're watching Flirt UK with me, London Hughes. Listen, if you're single and you're ready to mingle, text in.

And then I'd have a picture of like, this is Hugh. Hugh is single. He likes redheads. If you're a redhead who fancies the bit of Hugh, text in. And they would text in and they, and you know,

I would encourage it and give them the number to call and like text, you know. How many hours did this go on for? Oh, I was on there from four to 11 and then 11 I would leave. And that's when the tits would come out. But from four to 11, I was getting £20 an hour babe.

Living the dream. Living the dream. Sitting there on live TV, 4 to 11, getting paid to talk. I mean, in retrospect, was it good experience? Yes, because this is how I started doing comedy.

After a while, I made up little bits. So I had like Hughes' shoes where I like put my feet up and showed them what shoes I was wearing that day and made like funny things about my shoes. And then the foot fetish guys really liked that. So then that would get more people in. Foot fetish guys are texting in, making more money.

I had the most popular show on Babes Station in the daytime. Right. Most popular. So I did that until I got fired. Yes, well. It's happened to all of us. So yeah, that was a crazy time.

Crazy time. And then my next job after that was CBBC. Of course it was. Yes, CBBC. It's not been an easy journey, though, has it, to where you are now.

And for people who might not be aware of how difficult it was for you in this country I mean it's impossible to you know detail every single rejection and experience that you had but you didn't have the kind of easy ride that your success now yeah would people would imagine that you'd had no and that's why I wanted to put it in the book because I think when you think of successful people we always see the end result we don't see all the failing and all the hardship they went through so the book is basically all the failure I was like I'm putting

it all in no matter how bad it is or how bad it makes me feel to relive it it's all going in um my thing was always this I genuinely remember when in 2009, I won the Funny Women Awards. I'm just turned 20. And I remember thinking, I have been doing stand-up for three months and I've already won this competition. And it was searching for the UK's funniest woman and the search went all over the country.

So three months of doing stand-up, I'm already as good as a lot of women, if not better, I won it, right? So I'm there thinking, well, this is great. I've won this award. And I remember like the South London Press did an interview with me, like, what's next? And I was like, well, if this is me now,

three months in, give me a year. I'll have my own TV show. I'll have this, I'll have that, I'll have that. And I genuinely, my mom and dad taught me that like, if you're a nice person and you work hard, good things will happen to you. And that's just what I believed. I didn't take systemic racism

and sexism into the picture. So I genuinely was like, well, I'm funny. I work hard. I'm really nice. Of course I'll have a TV show. Of course I'll get on this. Of course I'll get on Mock the Week. Of course I'll get on 8 Out of 10 Cats. Of course I'll get on Live at the Apollo. Like, why wouldn't I do? I'm funny. I've proved I'm

funny. I won this competition. I'm really nice. And I work hard. What's stopping me? And then, yeah. Well, what did stop you? Sexism and systemic racism. And yeah, I was,

I genuinely was slapped around the face with systemic racism. It was crazy. I remember just watching all my friends, my white male friends, that had started around the same time I was I did or before or before me or a bit before me a bit after me and I just remember like after gigs even though I killed it the producers would be around these white guys that

talking to them even though like I killed it and the guys would be like oh yeah I got this agent I got this person this person did you get and I'd be like no nobody approached me for anything and then like even the auditions I had to do I would always get to the final rounds of auditions and then like kill it and other all the comics people like Josh Widdicombe Joe Lysett before they were famous they will tell you like London was with us I was I was that era of comedian but they kept getting offers for TV shows and all these things. And like opportunities on panel shows. And I didn't get them. And I just was like, well, clearly I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Because I'm going into, it's not like no one's laughing. I'm killing it. It's not like I'm dying on my ass. I'm killing it. And then afterwards, I really was angry. And I was like asking my agent, like ask them why they haven't chosen me. Like speak to eight out of ten Cats producers and say why after London killed that audition, why is she not on the show?

And they'd be like, oh, we love London. She did amazing. We just don't think our audience would get her. And that was always the feedback. And they were like, if London's famous in her own right, you know, she can come on the show. So they would have like a Jamelia on the show, like a famous black

woman who's a pop star but like an up-and-coming black female comedian no but then an up-and-coming white male comedian yes so it was just like what do you mean the audience wouldn't get me i'm british i'm i'm what is it i don't speak another language what is it then that's not to get and I realised it was painful to understand that maybe the audience would never get me You do make a really interesting point in the book

about there being two types of comedy circuits in this country and I had not stopped to think about that London so I am grateful to you for pointing this out No, so could you tell us a to think about that, London. Had you not? I am grateful to you for pointing this out. No, so could you tell us a bit more about that very clear distinction that you make? Yeah, so there's two. There's always been two.

There's still two now. There's the comedy circuit that you know of. We called that the white comedy circuit back in the day. And then there's the black comedy circuit. And then there's the black comedy circuit. And so the black comedy circuit is a circuit that's, I guess, full of black comedians that can't get on to the white comedy circuit. Like, let me be very clear.

I have been doing stand-up since I was 19 years old. 19. I have never in my life been asked to perform at the comedy store in the UK. Ever. I'm 34 years old they have no the only times I performed at the comedy store was a charity gig for Stephen Camel's which Stephen asked me to go on or when I won funny women which was at the comedy store outside of those the comedy store whoever runs it I don't even know his name he has never reached out to me and booked me ever and I I performed at the Comedy Store in LA, the world famous Comedy Store,

the one with Robin Williams and pictures of Robin Williams and Jim Carrey and Eddie Murphy as you walk in. I perform there every weekend, but I have never been booked at the UK Comedy Store. This is what I'm saying. So like, because we can't get on at these comedy clubs, the black comedians had to make their own circuit so it's full of black comedians that have not been booked on places like the comedy store and and other top comedy places in london and instead we you know

created our own scene we performed in uh churches uh little theaters catford broadway theater hackney empire big fears but like predominantly to black audiences and yeah we weren't you know our gigs weren't covered in time out they weren't one to what come to this this weekend no like it was just like a community of people that liked black comedy would know about it they would show up and they would they would go we'd post it on facebook and they would go to those shows i i had a comedy booker at one point and he got me loads of gigs but they weren't like prestigious gigs they were like little working men's pubs and i would do that i would drive like from brighton i lived in brighton at the time i would drive to leeds go on stage do 10 minutes at some working man's pub and like drive back home for 50 quid that was my life I was doing that all over the country. You went to Hull once.

I went to Hull. Oh, God. Once. Be in the word. Never again, baby girl. Right. Have we lost you to America then? Is this it? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Can you not blame me? Well. You look sad. Don't you want better for me? Don't you want better for me? Yes, we do. We both want you to be happy. Do you know what?

I'd like Britain to do better, I think, is what I really mean. And I think that's what I've had to realise, and it's so sad. But I took it personal for a long time. Because I've been doing stand-up for 10 years. And at the time, when I moved to America, maybe 11 years when I moved to America, and I just remember being like, one day Britain, you'll care, you'll care,

you'll see, America's going to love me. And they did. America loved me, embraced me. I was never told, oh, our audience won't get her, despite the fact that it's a completely different country. And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. But America took me under their wing and welcomed me. And people like Kevin Hart and Dave Chappelle

are now my mentors and friends. And I genuinely remember thinking, oh, I'm'm gonna come back to England and they'll care and they do care more don't get don't get me wrong like I like the my my agents always getting you know bookings like could you do this can't you do that and I'm like no you can't afford me but truthfully you can't but I do think England has a thing when it comes and I'm only speaking in entertainment um I have I think it has a thing where it doesn't really celebrate black women in a way that it should and I think it's not personal to me I just don't think they will ever really care and when I think about America despite how racist America is I'm not saying it's not America's racist America's probably one of the most racist countries in the world yet it has a beyonce it has a whoopi goldberg it has an oprah there's no

british oprah there's no british beyonce there's no british whoopi goldberg it's not the name of name a british woman who is as successful as any black a black british black woman who's as successful as any white man in Britain. I came to America prepared. I wrote 10 TV shows, 10 movies, and 10 unscripted TV shows ready so that when I had meetings, they would say, have you got anything we could read?

I'd be like, yes, all of this. So I came there ready to hustle and work hard and I was prepared to bang down the door. And I got there and the door was open for me they were like oh you're talented you work hard come in you're a black woman come in and I've never had that like like love and celebration like it's just here I've always felt like you know it's the right thing to do. We should include black women, of course. We should have diversity. But of course we should do it.

But do you want to do it? No, you're just doing it because we should do it. And that's how I feel about Britain. Whereas in America, I genuinely feel they want it. They want me. And Britain, I still don't think you want me. And I would rather go where I'm wanted. That was London Hughes.

And her book fee is called Living My Best Life, Hun. Living My Best Life, comma, Hun, H-U-N. Well, I'd be really interested in what people think of her belief that it was both racism and misogyny that stopped her being a success here. But when she names those names, Jane, it is really hard to come up with a British equivalent. We don't have a Beyonce. We don't have a Whoopi Goldberg.

We just don't. She's right. No, no, we don't. We have had, so I was trying to think, have we had an equivalent of an Oprah? Well, there's Alison Hammond, who's a big tv star at the moment uh no doubt about that uh and there was trisha goddard as well it was a big big success for a while that's rather faded a little bit now in terms of prominence um obviously there's been really important people like Moira Stewart

reading the news but yeah I am struggling a bit it's all rather uncomfortable isn't it well it is and also I'm always very wary of trying to prove somebody wrong about their own experiences we're not trying to do that and we're not in a position to are we? No but I think

some people will and I think some people do. Well, they shouldn't. No. We loved seeing London. You made a very astute observation about her drinks. Yes, well, she's gone completely LA, ditching the strong tea with eight sugars, which, you know, I think that's a lot, by the way.

And now she has this herbal thing, which just looked and smelt completely ghastly. If you went to Los Angeles, do you think it would change you? Or do you think you would change it? I think very much the latter. I can't think of anyone who'd be less at home in LA than me. I think you should go. Start eating egg white omelettes. Oh, very much so. Driving everywhere. No, no, it's not for me. No, no.

Don't worry. You can worry about all sorts of things. I won't be deserting Times Radio for LA. That is not something to put on your worry list. Now, our guest tomorrow afternoon is Michelle Rue Jr. Now, he has got a new cookbook out. We can talk to him about that, but we can also talk to him about, is it Le or La Gavroche? Le Gavroche. Does that mean something, Le Gavroche?

No. You don't know? It means the urchin. Thank you. It means the urchin. The urchin. You'd have to be quite well off an urchin on a good day to be able to afford that, I would venture to suggest.

But anyway, okay, his restaurant, The Urchin, which is closing. It is. Unfortunately. And which was something that, well, I think his dad used to run it, didn't he? Yeah, it must be really, really weird to be called junior when he's in his 60s now.

I was about to attempt a weak gag about what was his dad called? Well, I don't know. You see, women just don't do this, do they? We are robbed of the ability to have a junior because women used to change their names and your daughter probably won't have the same surname as you. My children don't. Yeah, no, my children. So, yeah, let's have the same surname as you. No, my children don't. Yeah, no, my children.

So, yeah, let's have a couple of juniors. But at what age do you think it would be okay to turn around and say, I'm just not junior anymore? I'm just neither, I'm not senior, I'm not junior, I'm just Michelle. Serious question. Presumably you stop being, well, he hasn't, I think, because I think his father has died. But he's still always going to be junior.

Or do you stop being junior when you've got another junior lined up? So what I don't understand, and this happens a lot in Los Angeles and in your in-depth documentary series that you can make when you embed yourself in the city, you can ask about this, but the American thing of just constantly going through the generations with the same name and adding the third and the fourth and all of that. I mean, it is quite arrogant, isn't it? It's ludicrous.

Just keep on chucking out the same person. If you've been a real bang average Joe, do you really want to... Why would you have to impose your non-entity status on the next one? Then it's the fact that you then have to call somebody, you know, so-and- you know so and so the third so and so the fourth yeah it's kind of this is just so weird you're just no there's only one of you in my eye line at the moment it's just bizarre yeah and i think that just heaps expectation on you as well in a good way and a bad way yeah yes there are no little janes at home no little

jane garvey the seconds no i think that's no no bad thing no so look we've got loads of things to Yes, there are no little Janes at home. No little Jane Garvey IIs. No. No. I think that's no bad thing. So, look, we've got loads of things to talk about. We'll talk about food on the radio, which always works. I mean, it's such a good way of doing food on the radio, so I'm looking forward to that myself. I hope you bring some things in. Do you know what?

I've been really off kilter, and that's because I had a Barocca. Don't have a Barocca if you're not ill. I wouldn't. Mariella Frostrup forced a Barocca pill on me. She's a pusher. She's a pusher of the Barocca. I took one and I've now slightly slipped into... Was I feeling a bit unwell? No, I wasn't.

I thought I'd better just have it. She's given it to me now. So on Eve's instruction I halved it, put it into my sparkling water, which normally sees me through the afternoon just fine. And now I feel like I might be coming down with something. No, please don't come down. But you know what you will have later? Well, I do know, yes.

Very expensive wee. Goodbye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five.

You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies.

A lady listener. I know, sorry.