Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Massaging the old joints with a bit of Antony Beevor

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Welcome to Monday! Jane is off today and tomorrow, so we’re bringing you a big book special today… Robbie Millen, literary editor of The Times and The Sunday Times, joins Fi to discuss his current book recommendations, being an intellectual snob, deliciously bitchy writing, why you should avoid poets, and Ed Balls doing the Gangnam Style dance. Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was trying to do my professional with my papers and I could completely miss the desk. You're in some kind of order as well, Eve. I'm going to take that as a sign for the week. Right, good morning class, good morning class. We've got our favourite supply teacher with us today. It's young Eve Salisbury. How are you? I'm well, thank you, how are you?

I'm very well, indeed. Did you have a nice weekend? I had a really nice weekend, yes. I didn't have my christening, but I had a christening for my goddaughter. Lovely. Now, a we're like, can I ask you some questions about this? Please. Well, because you asked a question of all of us dinosaurs in the office,

what a good present is for a God child. And it's an interesting question, isn't it? And there were all manner of suggestions being thrown around. And I wonder what you made of the suggestions and what you then chose. There were some really, really nice suggestions. Well, Jane told me just to invest in gold. I don't know how wealthy you are, but at the moment, I think you'd be able to get a pinprick.

So that was, yep, a no. No. You had a really lovely suggestion, which was to kind of create a little collection, a little box of things from this year. And I have to say that's not because I'm such a brilliant gifter. It's because a godparent did that for one of my. kids and on his 18th birthday what a magnificent thing to have because you've just completely

forgotten it's so nice um i unfortunately did not get my act together in time to do that sorry so i went down the slightly lazy route i got her you know monica vanada vanada oh yes nice yeah i just got a little silver bracelet for tavern she's older because it's supposed to be silver isn't it but i don't really know why i've never done any of it before oh i didn't know that i don't know that That's why, you know, sometimes they get spoons. Okay. Is that where the expression silver spoon in your mouth comes from? Oh.

Oh. I honestly don't know. Some of our lovely, lovely listeners. Someone will know a lot more. Okay, well, that's a very, very nice thing. Also, she's not even one. She's not got a clue what's going on. No.

No. So she wouldn't be able to read a newspaper from this week anyway, would she? What are we thinking? A miracle. I wonder what will happen to all of those solid memorabilms. because they aren't available now, are they? So you can't do a box of the newspaper of the day, the CD that was at the top of the charts,

you know, a ticket from an event that you've most recently been to. You can't do that kind of time capsule thing, can you? No, you can't give someone an e-ticket, a barcode. No, you can't. It's rubbish. No, this is a sad thing. Saying that, I do think that there's this kind of trend at the moment of kind of reverting back to the analogue.

For example, I had with me at a film camera and we took photos on a film camera. What a problem were? Click it on one of those. And, you know, there's people are getting into film cameras. People get record players nowadays. And people do want magazines. And I think, I mean, it will become a slightly kind of bespoke thing

to still have a newspaper, won't it? Whereas everybody had a newspaper back in the day. But it will be no bad thing given, our profession and the building that we're working in, Eve. I just wanted to read something to you. I was going to run it past you because one of my offspring is doing an A-level that is of an artistic bent.

And we've been looking back at influences on women in the media. And I got hold of an old... It's a book, actually, of Cosmopolitan magazine covers and some of the articles in Cosmopolitan and some of the adverts. and can I just read you one and see what your reaction is to it. Just remind the lovely listeners how old you are, please, E. I'm 27. Okay.

So what does a 27-year-old think of this? I think this was from the 1990s. It's an advertisement which features a woman standing looking into a mirror. In the mirror is the image of her looking slender and beautiful in her wedding dress. And the real her is looking at this image only slightly larger. in her later life. And the tagline goes, are you twice the woman your husband married?

I'm going to, wait, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. If you find extra inches appearing in all the wrong places, don't worry. Black and Decker home exercises can help you lose them enjoyably and conveniently. With either the rower or the pacer, the degree of effort can be adjusted. A counter measures the amount of exercise you're taking.

And when not using them, you can fold them up and put them away. The rower costs 45 pounds. Pace are only 40. They'll not only help you look better but feel better too, so much so he could be tempted to suggest a second honeymoon. Not a second honeymoon. Oh, lucky lady. Can you just take a look at that for me? We just couldn't believe it. So how old is this? So I think that's, I mean, it's only from the late 1980s or early 1990s. And initially the reaction is one of, oh, that's just ridiculous and that's terrible and it's sexist and it's misogynistic and all that kind of stuff. And then I thought actually, hang on a sec, have we

really come that far? To you, does that speak of a historical time? What do you think? I think this advert does because it's just so in your face in a way that it wouldn't be allowed these days. But I think the way that the pendulum is swinging was that we had the body positive for T movement and now it's swung right back with jabs and Zembek. So that actually you probably would see not this because it's so blatant but that kind of more subtle. But still exactly. I mean it still is the same message isn't it? I think people have they've just let go of the body positivity thing. Because I think cynically, you know, from the hills of my late 50s,

pharmaceutical companies can target and market and prey on exactly that. feeling that women have never lost, which is thin is beautiful and thin is good, and thing makes him or her like me more. And it's just all there. And I worry for your 26-year-old cells, because it's like you just haven't had a break from it at all, have you? I feel like the only difference really would be maybe that wouldn't be an advert in a magazine, but very much influences on social media are sending the exact same message.

All of that. And actually, when we look through loads of things in cosmopoliting, because it was a massively, massively influential magazine. certainly when I was your age. And it just did that thing that, again, has not gone away, which it sold itself with this incredibly glamorous, very, very sexy, powerful image of women. And then it had articles inside saying,

are your legs long enough? You know, it was so passive-aggressive in what it sold to you, and I couldn't get enough of it. And the damage was punished. So, oh, good. Well, I just, you know, I hope that everybody in your generation is actually just a bit more clued up. And I think you are, but I think the messaging coming at you is just not changed at all. Yeah.

You can be clued up, but I think it's still hard to not fall for sure. And, I mean, if you are very, very worried about your weight and your image, there are all those dark places you can go to now. You can be sold, all the pharmaceuticals that say that they're going to help you lose weight and you can learn all kinds of bad habits and find communities who are endorsing them. So, yeah, we know that. I don't know why I've said that to try and send out when you can't stop the kids.

Just absolutely pathetic. Should we do some emails? Waiting for the out. Now, this is a thank you from Nicole, who says, thank you so much for that recommendation, what incredible television it feels to me like this year's adolescence. Now, do you know what, Nicole, I'm amazed that it hasn't got a little bit more kind of ding-dong out there

because I've done the whole lot. I think it's a phenomenal series and it is tackling all of those things about modern masculinity. But it's just clever and it's funny and it's brilliantly acted and it is all about life inside prison and it defies your expectations and breaks all the stereotypes as well, I think. So, yeah, I'm surprised more people aren't talking about it

but maybe it's going to be on a delicious slow burn. What are you watching at the moment? Anything goofy? We've just finished heated rivalry last night. Oh, okay. Worth it? I did enjoy it. I was watching it with my housemates,

and there were some moments so we were just kind of averted our eyes and just went on our phones for a little bit. We got the giggles a bit. But it was good. Yeah. So this is because it's got very explicit sex scenes in it. I'm getting a bit flushed.

Well, I'm glad to hear that it's as embarrassing to watch with flatmates as it is, you know, with teenagers or with partners. Does it need to be that explicit? Actually, I'm going to ask that in my very Mary White House voice here, does it need to be that explicit? Well, I guess if it wasn't, then it maybe it wouldn't be made for so many waves. And it's based off books. And I think the books are quite explicit. So it had to stay true to the text. Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah, well, as long as you enjoyed it, it says a lot that you finished it. I haven't done it yet. Are you going to?

Well, I might do, but we've all agreed in our family that we have to watch it individually. So we just have to find the time when we haven't got something else that we actually want to be watching together. We've been trying to do the night manager, which I think is a little bit season two. It is like when you meet a bloke or a girl

and you go on a couple of dates with them And you just know that they're wrong for you. You know that nothing is going to come good in the end, but you just stick with it in the hope that maybe there's some salvation at the end. And I tell you, dear people, who've not even started season two yet, don't bother. I mean, it just, for me, it's not working at all. Oh, Shane has been such a builder. Yes, and now I feel that I have invested.

You're on date four? Yes, I am. Yeah, so I feel that I've got to stick with it for some time, to come, but they've tried to put all of this emotional stuff in. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I don't want that on a Sunday night.

I don't need it. No. That's for Antiques Roadshow, and I've had enough of it by the end of that. Oh, now the chateau, lots of people are very excited about the DIY chateau that is going to be in the same time slot on Channel 4 as the How to Win a Bed and Breakfast Program was. and you're going to be able to win the chateau. We're going to watch people do DIY in order to win the chateau.

We're going to be keeping a very, very close eye on which part of France the chateau is in. Sounds like there might be a few exigent. Well, let's hope so. They've got lots of plasters on hand. Because the jeopardy in how to win a bed and breakfast were, usually whether or not a poached egg was going to be runny. After the first poached egg, which was great, you're saying, slightly thought, you need to up the jeopardy. So I think some things with Dickie Wiring

would be just what we need. Theme tunes and late in life love interests. This one is coming in from the fantastically named Atlanta Wardell-Yerberg. Dear Fianne, I'm so glad you enjoyed the wonderful greyhound video. Yep, do you keep those coming? I just heard your section about theme tunes, and I wanted to report that me and my very own late-in-life love interest, reader, I married him, and he's a cracker,

both share a passion for TV from our childhoods. Robbie has just come in the room. Now sit down quietly. Okay. I try and be quiet. I don't think that's possible, is it? I try not to pan. Okay.

The stairs. How many flights? Only three. I've got this email. Do you want me to do it slowly or at a normal pace? Would you be okay? Would you be okay? I'm ready.

I want to put your mic down once you catch your breath. Do you know what, Eve? Just, I think, for everybody's sake. Nobody needs a heavy breather, not on a Monday. During the otherwise quite dull for the congregation, Register signing interlude at our wedding, we got our brilliant organist to play a fabulous mash-up of our favourite theme tunes, including Black Beauty, Dynasty, Dallas, the A-Team,

and many other 70s and 80s TV bangers. You haven't lived until you've heard that lot delivered on a massive church organ in Marleyburn. Steady yourself, Robbie. Thank you again for always entertaining and delighting us. We've both been very keen listeners. since the beginning at the other place and you've cheered us immensely

through all the vagaries of life. That is absolutely what we're here for, Atlanta. P.S. Hong Kong Fui was the best cartoon ever whose real hero was, of course, Spot the Cat, endlessly rescuing the janitor. And you've included a lovely one-minute kind of YouTube thing there, which I enjoyed watching too. Do you remember Hong Kong Foui?

No one super guy. Hong Kong Fooey. Quick and than the name. Good eye. Very good. You just as thou wiped my memory. I'm sorry about that. Can I do one of your...

Yes, do you want to just introduce yourself? Oh yes, sorry, yeah, I'm being very presumptuous. Who are you? I'm Robbie Millen. I'm Libyan. I'm literature of the Times and Sunday Times. There we go. Welcome. Now, you've done some of these podcasts with my colleagues.

Yes. No, exactly. I've never been handled just by you solo. Okay. So I'm excited. Okay, well, I handle with care. On a Monday, not so by a Thursday. So, yes, now you've got an absolutely brilliant one there.

Exactly. This is all about stiff guy yoga. And it's from some called, which I like this name, Nikki Lynn's Javier or Xavier. Yeah, we have very, very high-end contributors. But the reason why I like this, she runs a yoga therapy clinic at her local GP surgery. But since 2018, she's been doing a class just for men called stiff guy yoga

and I think this sounds true because I'm one of those people the only time I've ever done yoga it's been full of very bendy women for certain age with leotiles standing on their heads and things like that whereas I wanted someone to sort of basically move my leg into position

with kind of hammers and things like and whack the knees into play because I'm a stiff guy do you want to read a bit more of the years because actually her reasoning for doing it was and is fantastic exactly so I mean she says there was a sort of invisible cordon sanitaire.

Again, you'll read as a classy, or listeners, around all classes. It felt like the yoga's almost exclusively seen as a class of women, after which what was a guy to wear, even if he dares set foot inside? Upside down on a pair of shorts? Well, you can see the problem. She's my kind. I like this woman. Well, you don't want to see the problem.

No, no, exactly. What do you wear to a yoga class? I wear shorts, but luckily they're not too revealing. They're not sort of budgie smugglers. No, okay. Sorry, why are you asking me this? This is inappropriate. Welcome to offer.

Also, I like the fact that Nikki is doing those classes in Winchester. Exactly. Great place to be doing them. Beautiful city. And she said, I wrote a book for beginners and did some videos to enable others to access yoga. Ed Balls was an early adopter. Yes, yes. Maybe Mrs. B put him up to it.

We'll never forget Gangnam style with Ed Boyle. on strictly, will we ever? And neither should we? No, exactly. We live for these moments. We do. The book has become a popular stocking filler for dad, I guess, before he chins himself struggling into his socks. So the partners of Stiff started demanding their own class in six years on. Stiff Girl Yoga is still going strong.

I think this is just fantastic. In terms of incidents in class, I could write another book on that. They're all related to women. We are complex creatures after. all. So here we go. The student standing on her mat with crutches with both legs fully in plaster casts. The student who refused to take her hiking boots off, who huffed off. The students with Tourette's who squirled loudly throughout in what she called her penguin voice, I think we'll forgive you for that. And the student, a yoga teacher who, for the entire hour, did her own routine

when we were sat, she stood and vice versa. It's really wonderful. Robbie, how are you? Oh, yes, I'm all right. No one ever usually asks me that. Oh, okay. What happens when you arrive at work at the very busy literary desk

of the Times and Sunday Times? Well, they all kind of, because I'm surrounded by young women, they just look at me and they stop talking. Do they? Yeah, I know. It's possibly they're talking about me or just I'm a conversation killer. Are you?

And do you rule the desk with a rod of iron? Oh, my God. of iron. A whim of iron. I'm very changeable. But they're very kind to me. Sometimes they listen to me. Okay. And sometimes they don't. We know we're sort of like old Labradors. They kind of, as long as I sit kind of quietly in the corner most of the time, they're willing to give me a pat. Okay. Occasional treat. Okay. Feed you something under the table. Exactly. Well, good for you. Well, good for you. Well, done for staying. We've got so many things that we want to talk to. about on books with Robbie Millen, our favourite Monday slot on the live radio show

between two and four you appear at about 3.30. We are in our off-air podcast book club. We're rereading something, and we put out this request a couple of weeks ago because we just try and do slightly different books in the book club. So not always something that has topped the chart somewhere along the way. And the conversation started actually with somebody saying

they'd hugely enjoyed rereading Rebecca. Oh, yeah. They've re-read it three times in their life, and at each different time in their life, it meant something completely different. You are a huge re-reader, aren't you? Oh, God, yeah. Well, it's sort of like, I think the best books,

or rather books generally improve with age if they're good, because I think just by the kind of passage of time, the little kind of small kind of background details become more interesting, because you've got a window into a slightly different world. So I always like that. So that's a particularly... Because actually I did a re-reading...

We have a column in the time as a rereading column. I did one recently on Notes on a Scandal. Remember that was turned into a film with Zoe Helen novel, and it's terrific. Yes, and all of those kind of points of recognition would still be there, wouldn't they? Absolutely, yeah. It's about lying.

It's... It's about monstrous friendship as well. There's certain, maybe we all have this, a friend where you think, well, you want to sort of intervene when you see other people with a friend like this, who's sort of controlling, gets into every bit of your life, usually with disastrous effects, especially if they're slightly bored with their own life. Maybe that's how Kirstama felt about Andy Burner. He's had to put his pom-poms back, hasn't he?

You're being a little bit political today, aren't you? I'm so sorry, I apologise for that. We have chosen Neville Shoots, a town like Alice, which has been recommended by quite a few of our listeners as our re-reading choice. And we'll talk about that probably in about we like to give our listeners quite a long period of time to read books because we're all busy, busy, busy people. So we will come together and do the book club edition probably in about five or six weeks time. I hadn't thought about that book in years.

Where would you place it in the canon? Do you know what? I've got vivid memories, not that vivid actually. I think I must have read this at school because I remember having to wrap a Neville shoot book up in... Do you remember when you had... This is rather raging because books were such a precious commodity

when you were given a book at school. You wrapped it in brown paper to protect it. And I can't remember whether it was this one. But he's got such range Nevel shoot. But he's sort of rather disappeared down the memory hole. Yeah, I didn't realize and forgive me for my ignorance, that he was an Englishman. he ended up in Australia.

That's right. Because I'd only ever read bits from his Australian kind of sequence. Yeah. So I just assumed that he was an Australian writer. No, definitely. Because I think probably one of the most depressing novels of the 20th centuries by him, should you be in the mood for a depressing novel,

I think it's called On the Beach, which is all about kind of nuclear destruction. And I think it's a 60s novel, but captured a mood. But yeah, he was a big best-selling, author, but sort of he's rather faded with time. Yeah. What keeps somebody alive like that? I mean, tell us about what happens inside the publishing industry. Well, basically, most publishers are like goldfish, you know, they're always searching for the kind of the new thing. And it's quite

interesting how quickly sort of people disappear. So Beryl, Bainbridge, do you remember sort of in the 80s? She was always sort of in running for the Booker Prize, always a bestseller. I think if you went into a, let's say, normal waterstones or independent bookshop, I think you would be hard-pressed to find one, where she was so ubiquitous. So I think next month, a whole bunch of her novels are being reissued. And you think, thank God. So you just need those moments when publishers think, hang about. This one was great.

Let's revive her. But sequels matter as well. Because I was thinking, talking Rebecca, Susan Hill wrote a brilliant sequel to, to Daphne de Moria's novel called Mrs. De Winter. And, you know, here's an outrageous take. I think it might be better than the original. I know. That's a sharp, I know, I know, exactly.

From both me and English graduate eve over there. You're looking goggle-eyed at me now. Yeah. I mean, I suppose I don't ever expect Rebecca to be bettered, actually. I think it's such a bittersweet novel. Oh, yeah, I mean... Deliciously sour and horrible. I mean, Susan Hill's very good at doing sour.

Yeah. This is terrific. And likewise, I was talking about the Cazilic Chronicles. Last time I was on the radio with you, which I'm sort of only two in, three to go, loving it. But again, Elizabeth Jane Howe has been sort of almost rediscovered. So she's died in 2014. And since then, her reputation has grown and grown and grown.

And she had been married to Kingsley Amos, mother-in-law of Martin Amos. But I think now, She's probably better read than both of them. Good. I do like a bit of Kingsley Amos. Call me old-fashioned. Yeah, and I confess to liking a bit of Martin Amos as well.

Actually, not his later books, but his earlier books. He was an outrageous punk, wasn't he? Well, I think some of the characters, particularly in London Fields, have always stuck with me. Yeah, no, exactly. Well, they're recognisable, aren't they? Yeah, but it's the very large child Marmaduke in London Fields, isn't it? Do you remember him?

I can't remember that. I'm not sure that would pass a sensitive. You were a judge on the Bailey Giffra Prize. You were chair of judges on the Bailey Giffra Prize. God, I was self-important that year. Well, don't leave it in the past. Let's use the present tense. You chose Helen Garner's collected diaries,

and we had her on the program. We interviewed her about two weeks ago. Phenomenal, Bobby. Phenomenal. She's 83 years old. She can knock the socks, I think, of anybody in college. conversation still. There is nothing diminished about her acuity. I hadn't read all of her diaries before and I did before interviewing her because she's a real heroine of mine. What was it in

the judging room that made you agree to give her the prize? Was it a difficult decision where people, was anybody against it? Well, it was, it ended up being unanimous but at the beginning of the process. It wasn't on my radar as a likely winner, but at each sort of judging meeting, it sort of slowly crept up the rank and we had this sort of scoring system. So it was always sort of of middle of the pack. And then at the last meeting, everyone would just say, oh, Helen Garner. And I think the reason why, I suppose originally I thought, oh, this won't win is because you know, 800 pages of diaries by an Australian writer. That's not particularly well. known over here. It's a big ask for the reading

public. I'd wanted a sort of book which I thought might resonate with people. But then the more you read it, you think, what an amazing woman. She's such great company. Even when she's down, she's very honest about her own failings or the failures of

life. She's a brilliant observer of everyday sort of things going on around. Brilliant observations about literature and the process of being a writer. I mean, it's like we're given access to this, incredibly clever woman's mind, and she's willing to bear all. And also it is deliciously bitchy about her husband number three.

He clearly was a monster. She says so many clever things about the situation that she finds herself in that marriage. And it almost beggars belief that as an incredibly clever woman... Oh, my goodness, yeah, yeah. She stayed as long as she did, actually. One of her observations, she says, nothing tells you that love has gone more than a man getting up from the table to get a single glass of water.

It's tiny things like that. You just nailed it. But what of him? Because she said in the interview that he wrote a memoir called he, full stop, that came out before she had published the diaries. A little egomaniacal, maybe.

I wouldn't say. It's not my position to condemn a man, Robbie. I feel I must stand up for him now. man v women being going on here. Yeah, but imagine, just to be your memoir, he full stop. I mean, at least do he semicolon or just a comma. You know, there are some...

A memoir. Yes, he, end of. No more he's. Anyway, she felt that it was a preemptive strike across her bowels. And actually in that memoir, she said that he just gave her one line. And she was amused by that because it was kind of like,

how can you reduce a marriage that had so much in it to just one line? is he a very revered novelist? Does he a very revered person in literature? Again, it's very difficult to, I'm no expert on the Australian literary scene, but I sort of remember years ago,

the sort of thing, he was one of their sort of big dogs of serious literature. And certainly, I think that that's true, although it must be diminished now because you can't unread these diaries and they make him look so petty. So I think it's been, I assume it's going to be devastating in the long run for his sort of posthumous reputation.

And where do you stand on whether or not that's fair? Oh, if you live with a writer, you should, and you're a writer yourself, everything, you know, you're going to be turned into something, whether a really, you know, a character in a novel or in a memoirs. You know, if you want to sort of lead a private life, never marry a writer. Okay, that's very good advice. I'm full of advice and avoid poets as well what's wrong with the poets

well they're very dramatic individuals just generally so I'll definitely heed your advice on that I just remember that talking he is a kind of slightly self-involved title do you remember Elton John's memoir

was called me which I love that and if I remember rightly this could be wrong but I think in his acknowledgement he thanks himself No one else. Would you like that?

That's just... It is all about me. I was going to ask you, though, whether you think anything has changed in the publishing world because of what's happened with the salt path. So that need to verify somebody's personal memoir and experience,

do you think that that will change the commissioning process? No, because it happens all the time. It pops up every few years, doesn't it? I mean, I feel sorry for the publishers on this because there's a certain amount of due diligence you can do, but it's like, would you ask for someone's medical, husband's medical records straight away?

Yeah, I mean, it is very complicated. But, you know, on a lesser point, I did think sometimes when I was reading Helen Garner's diaries, she does try and disguise the identity of people she's writing about, so she just calls them X or V or whatever. But, of course, with Google now, you're just straight on it within seconds, just who is. X in Helen Garner's dies

and you can, you know, so how it was written and when it was written, offered a little bit more protection to people than now, doesn't it? Well, I mean, it was, I mean, the observer was the newspaper that broke the Soulpath story, discovered the kind of

holes in the inconsistencies, maybe the fibs or whatnot. But it took a long time to get there. I mean, I remember when the second book came out, I thought, Hang about, how many memoirs can you get out of, you know, your husband having a terminal condition? And then the third one. And then when the fourth one, I thought this is...

But, you know, just merely thinking this is odd. Well, walking is boring. People seem to want to do it, Robbie. Who is coming up in the publishing world this year that we can really look forward to? Have we got some big guns publishing novels? The one I would like to talk about, is Douglas Stewart. You remember he sort of won the Booker Prize in 2020.

Don't let that put you off because it's a terrific novel. It came out in 2020 during the kind of the lockdown. And I thought Shaggy Bain was such a brilliant novel and so moving. You must have this occasion when you've been on stage interviewing an author. You can get a kind of vibe from the audience. And I've only had a feeling of over-werelict. overwhelming love coming towards the stage twice.

And one of them was with him. You know, the audience was, he could have read my palm and the audience would have loved it. There was so much kind of adoration for him because I think everyone felt they'd been on a journey with him. Because Shaggy Bain, as you probably know, your listeners will know, is semi-autobiographical. It's about a boy who is growing up in a very neglectful, poor household in Glasgow. his mother's an alcoholic. And then, you know, once you do a bit of Googling around him, you can quickly discover a lot of this is lifted from his life,

but he's put a fictional veil over it to give him a bit of space. So he had a second novel which came out, I think, two years ago, called Young Mungo, which was a sort of similar milieu of kind of rough urban Scotland. But he's now got a third novel out, which I was really nervous about reading, because you know when certain writers you think I don't ever want you to write a duff novel

I'd rather you stop than write something bad but he's got one called John of John which comes out in May which thankfully is really first class really good and he's changed the sort of setting a bit to the Western Isles I think it's the Isle of Harris Is that right or is it Lewis

I'm terrible with my islands Anyway it's a sort of father and son relationship apologies to anyone in the Western Isles. There's a big difference, I know. But it's a story about Father and the Son, and the Son has been away to a kind of fashion college, which, funny enough, Douglas Stewart, that was his big escape.

It was, I think, there's a tax sarcology in the borders, which he went to, and there he met lots of nice young, posh Scottish girls, which was a novelty to him, and I think he found it very rewarding. Anyway, so this boy has returned from his period living in Edinburgh, a graduate, no job, comes back to live with his father, John. He's called Cow, John of John. He's actually called John the Cowell, but too much detail.

A strange lack of geographical detail, but a lot of other detail. I just looked at my note. It is the Isle of Harris. Sorry about that. Definitely the Isle of Harry. And his father is a crofter, God-fearing, wears his suits on Sunday and things like that. but they have a very awkward relationship, but there's all kinds of secrets. And one of the things I love about Douglas Stewart, he's literally, he can write, but he also gives you really satisfying stories where things happen. Excellent. So that's coming out in May.

That's coming out in May. Lovely. And it's called John of John. Maggie O'Farrell has a new novel called Land, which is coming out in June, and she's definitely booked on the podcast because obviously our listeners love her, and we love her. two and we were trying to work out. We heard a rumour that Claire Chambers had another novel on the way, but we couldn't find verification of this fact.

If you can hum amongst yourself, I can quickly find my little list. Oh, can you find your little list? Yes. What would you like you to have to... Actually, there's... I'll sing more theme tunes than the 19th century's. Exactly. No, well, I tell you what, because we were talking a little earlier on about Daphne de Moria. There's another sequel coming up by Rose Tremaine. Oh, that's a good.

She is brilliant. One of my favourite novels by Rose Tremaine is Restoration. Do you remember that? I don't remember Restoration. What was the one that she won the Women's Prize for The Journey Home? The Road Home was it? That's right. Which features the fantastic Leve as the really beautiful kind of poet.

Polish love interest. That's right. I've never forgotten Lev. You're looking, you're misty-eyed at me, as if I were Lev. Lev's levitated position. Yes, because that was quite, you know, interesting moment because I think that was the beginning of the phase of sort of Eastern Europeans arriving. And no one had sort of written about, you know, turning these people into sort of humans

rather than just men that turn up with plumbing kids. So Rose Tremaine is doing which of Daphne de Moriase. Well, it's a Rebecca spin. It's another Rebecca. Okay. Wow. I know. There's Anne Patchett's got a novel out in June with Whistler. I'm just looking at the big ones.

She's very good, very popular. Oh, here we go. It's called The Housekeeper by Rose Tremaine. Comes out in September. It sounds like a Frieda McFadden. I know. Everyone's, oh, jeepers, yes. Everyone's on that.

Kate Atkinson's got a novel out on Noble Sales in September. So it's always the same. The second half of the years when it really happens. Do you remember Meg Mason? Oh, the amazing one about mental illness. Yes, that's right. What's that called? What's that called?

Straight away. Meg Mason, it was called something like... Oh, that will come to me. I was looking at that on my bookshelf the other day and wondering if she had another one coming out because I loved that. Sorrow and bliss. Sorrow and bliss.

Sorrow and bliss. That's it. Should we do that bit again? Yes, should we do that? And then there's Meg Mason. At the end of August, she's got an... novel coming out. Do you remember Meg Mason? Sorrow and Bliss?

That's the fellow. Well, she's got a new one out in end of July. No, end of August called Sophie Stadding. I'm going to tell the listeners that when that went out on air, it was tidied up, but you got the full petticoat showing.

I thought we were looking really slick there. No, we never looked really slick. So we do, Jay and I do definitely try and be slicker on air, but here, not really. The standards have slipped. I'm quite disappointed, really.

They were never there. What do you make of Freedom at Fadden? Do you not... There was something in the way that you said that that suggested you were a little bit per-faced about her? Do you know what? I've got no right to judge because I've not read any of her books.

We recently sort of ran a feature about her success because, you know, any given week she'll have four. Sometimes she once had five. books in the top 10. So, I mean, that's extraordinary. So she should be respected for that. I just suspect sometimes the storytelling, it may lack the nuance that I would probably go for.

Okay. I see, I read one of hers because I was intrigued by her success. And it was on a very long train journey. In fact, Eve, it was when we went up to North Berwick, fringed by the sea. And I just couldn't get enough of it. I actually thought it was fantastic writing. I think she...

Yeah, she deserves her success. But it's interesting because I think you get to a level of success in those bestseller charts and people with a more literary bent are put off. And that's just weird. I find that really weird. It is one of the problems of working on a bookstess. You always have to be very aware of kind of intellectual snobberies because sometimes the things we want to write about

aren't necessarily what a lot of our readers or the reading public are looking at. So, you know, we're always aware of the, we're always waiting for the accusation of snobbri. Because sometimes we are being a bit snobbish. And sometimes you'll see a book, you know, described as dense and provocative. Oh, yes, that is our heart going. But that means boring. No, that means boring. Yeah, it means boring.

The phrase you've always got to ignore, if you see it, take that as a great big warning. Hypnotic prose. That means boring. And quite often with very literary novels, the words hypnotic prose is used. Yeah, I don't like challenging either. Oh, anything that's challenging. No, exactly.

Epic just means long. Yes, that's so true. Christopher Nolan is doing The Odyssey, isn't he? Oh, gosh. That would be wrong. And I did see somebody who clearly hadn't realized the nature of the epic. And it was based on saying, you know, it's just going to be really long.

It's kind of like, yes, but it's an epic poem. That's allowed. One time you should call something an epic, yeah. Do you have other recommendations to make? Do you ever want non-fiction? Yes, always. Well, I'm going to be interviewing Anthony Beaver, great military historian, which is probably not necessarily all your listeners,

but he's written a great quite short history of Rasputin. You know, remember Ra Ra Rastputin, Russia's greatest lover. Exactly. Which there's a bit of truth to it about the... But essentially sort of strips away some of the myths about him. Because there was always these things that he was sleeping with Nicholas... Emperor Nicholas II's wife, Alex, Queen Victoria's daughter. Too much background information.

I don't know why I said that. So there's always these kind of rumours. You know, a lot of that's not true. But he's... The reason why Anthony B. was interesting, he could say, Can you think of someone else in history, someone from kind of peasant stock, basically illiterate, who had such an effect on world history? Because without Rasputin, getting close to the Romanops, the ruling family of Russia,

they probably wouldn't have collapsed. So it's this kind of, he's a really interesting man, and Anthony Bee was a brilliant historian. So it's worth looking at them. I think that comes out in March. I mean, Russian history is very depressing. Well, I think that's one to... Sorry, yeah, I recommend that. It's one to take to Stiff Guy Yoga.

You know, it's a little light relief afterwards. No, exactly. It's a massage the old joints with a bit of Anthony Beaver. Okay, well, there's the title of the podcast. It's always lovely to see you, Robbie. We enjoy your expertise very much on the podcast. Expertise. Yes, yeah, that.

That's what we're branding it at. Hopefully you'll come back and see us again soon. Oh, we'd love to. Okay. Goodbye now. Shall I go away now? Yes, if you wouldn't mind. All right.

Thank you. Leave Eve and I to work out how much of that can stay in. Oh, I'd start again. Get my lovely colleague Laura Hackett to do it. Oh, yes, no, we love Laura, but we love you as well. Right, that's quite enough love before HR calls. Goodbye. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us. do this live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on d a b or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosy cutler