Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Maybe they were just drunk (with Gary Kemp)

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Is a tabard a housecoat? Is a housecoat a tabard? And what's a dressing gown? Jane and Fi are asking the big questions in today's podcast. They're joined by popstar Gary Kemp, to talk about the Rockonteurs podcast's first live recording as part of The Podcast Show 2023 on 25th May.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Okay, so I have found it almost impossible to get Gary Kemp Earworm out of my head. Which is your favourite? Through the Barricades. Well, yeah, because you have that thing about... Made in love on Wasteland. And through the barricades. Yeah, so it's the opening to that song that's beautiful as well, isn't it? With the guitar.

Yeah. Is it the guitar? Yes, is it the guitar? Yes, it must be, yes. He's actually, in some ways, an underrated songwriter, Gary Kemp, I think. Oh, do you think he's underrated? Well, I don't know, because he's not sort of talked of in the kind of hushed tones that some people

apply to. Anyway I think he's I think he's always been a good songwriter I think you were very cheeky to ask the question have you ever made love on Wasteland which with our health and safety heads on we must advise you against doing for a multitude of reasons. Well in case

you haven't had a tetanus injection. Well that would be uppermost. That would be my top two considerations because you just don't know what's lying around. No, you absolutely don't. Gary Kemp is our main guest today on the podcast, isn't it? Yes. Isn't it? Isn't he?

I think is what I was trying to say. We've been here a while. You've been here since the crack of, haven't you? Because you were on Matt Chorley's show. I was with Matt, yes I was with Matt in his coffee break feature which comes your way, Times Radio listeners at around about 25 to 12

and that's the one that Mariella usually does, well she does, she's just like all over it so the rest of us don't get a look in and you do actually get a coffee it's quite sort of literal, I got a flat white yeah, I got a flat white, that's nice and they play a bit of music underneath it, don't they? Yes, so it's a little bit like you're on a relatively good first date with Matt Chorley

and you just sort of ramble. Well, mind you, I didn't do a lot of rambling because he does a lot of talking. Oh, he told some very funny stories. I was listening to it in the car. He has a very good line about a story he wrote for Mail Online. Yes, he worked there about the day Carol Vorderman went out. What is it they normally say on Mail Online? Ventured out? Displaying her whatever? Well, yeah, was she sashaying down anything?

No, what is it they say? Flaunting her... Flaunting her curves. Flaunting her curves, yeah. It's a usual one. Yeah, well, she was flaunting something. Anyway, it was the day she went out and looked like a cornetto. I tell you what, did she take to the streets? Oh, that's right, took to the streets.

Yeah, she took to the streets. Celebrities took to Twitter. Yeah. Anyway, so that was the day that Carol Vorderman went out resembling a cornetto. If your sight is really, really bad. Anyway, Matt Chorley wrote that story, and it hasn't stood in the way of incredible progress in his career

to be one of our colleagues here at Times Radio. Quite remarkable. What she was actually wearing was just a brown skirt and a white top. A white top, yeah. Dressed as a cornetto. I love that, though. I did have a cornetto the other day, and they are. Is it me, or have they got smaller? Oh no, I think they've definitely got

smaller. It's minute. I mean they are, it's quite funny because at my advanced age, when you go to your mum and dad's, I'm still offered. Mum always says the same thing. You can have a Cornetto or a mini Magnum. A mini Magnum. Yeah, that's because we're all watching our weight.

You can't have a full size Magnum. Well, I don't think anyone can have a full size Magnum. Yeah, that's because we're all watching our weight. You can't have a full-size Magnum. Well, I don't think anyone can have a full-size Magnum. They're too much. They are actually quite an investment. They make you feel a bit sick about three-quarters of the way down, don't you think? Oh, no, I could eat a whole one. In fact, I think I might have one next week. Okay.

Do you think the reason Matt Chorley's so nice to both of us is because he's actually written about us in the mail online? Oh, my God, do you think he has? How long was he at the mail? I don't think I never... I never took to the streets or did I? I certainly never... Have you been inundated with complaints to DMs?

Oh, dear. Anyway, he's a nice chap. He always makes me laugh. good luck to him uh shall we talk about uh joy surges we've got an email from a new mum which i think is quite important isn't it so this is an anonymous email always fine by us hello fee and jane i wanted to send my first email to you in response to what youee said about joy surges. Joy surges. That's how I should be saying it. It's not a real person. As it really resonated with me, I had a baby seven months ago and I have not felt the level of joy I had expected and look forward to. I found it really hard to describe this lack of feeling as I do feel happy in general and I'm able to cope with my little one.

But I've always felt something is missing from my pre-baby emotional range hearing the term joy surge hit the nail on the head I used to feel this on occasions pre-baby like when we bought our house when we got married and I'm wondering does everyone feel this way when they have a baby is there something wrong with me should I seek professional help and will I feel it again? I'm desperate to feel it every day and sometimes I'm focusing on it so much that it's clouding the everyday experience of being with my beautiful baby who I love and I love spending time with. He is a cutie. Obviously being a mum is hard work and a challenge,

way more so than I could ever have imagined. However, I feel ashamed that these precious seven months have passed and I've not felt it yet. Just some context. I'm 34, always wanted children. I did experience some birth trauma, which I've had some help to work through. And he's never slept well or for long periods at night. So it's possible sleep deprivation is playing a part. I'd love to hear your thoughts and also from your listeners experiences of becoming a mum for the first time.

Right, over to you, Jane. Well, I would say to that correspondent, you are doing brilliantly, so pat yourself on the back. If you had birth trauma, then that's in itself quite a hump to get over, to put it very mildly. And I would say I could relate to everything you said about being home alone or in a marriage or a partnership with a young child. It isn't 90 percent joy.

I would say it was 75 to 80 percent hard slog. And you're doing something you've never done before. And it's one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing you've ever done. And you're doing it largely on your own. It's not usual to have two adults who are together all day with a very young child and it's bloody difficult and we need to say it and keep on saying it so please don't berate yourself for not feeling absolutely beside yourself with happiness and joy 24 7 because i wouldn't expect you to and i'd add into that the

sleep deprivation which i think if you can cast your mind back to before having a baby if you ever had periods where you couldn't sleep properly it completely takes away that high definition of your emotional range you know when you are really really knackered I think you see most things in a rather kind of monochrome slightly difficult way so you've got that to the power of 10 because the sleep deprivation doesn't ever really get sated. So I wouldn't beat yourself up about it at all. And also, I think full stop,

your emotional range just changes after having a baby. And for some people, it gets immensely heightened. I think for some people, it gets dulled. It's definitely different. There are loads of new emotions that come into play. So I would absolutely agree with Jane. I wouldn't beat yourself up about it at all. The one thing I would say, though,

is don't be afraid to get a bit of professional help if it's bothering you. Because it doesn't, you know, we're not in your shoes. And if there are moments when you think, this is so not me, I'm really struggling to see a way through it, then I'd absolutely get some professional help. And I think the glorious thing about having a baby now is that there are way more places to go to talk about how you're feeling. And I hope way more understanding about how you're feeling.

way more understanding about how you're feeling. So I don't think it should take too many steps to get some kind of professional help if you need it. I wonder as well whether you have a friend in your life who is at more or less the same stage as you, maybe somebody that you met at the mother and baby group or someone you did your classes with if you did them, whether you've got someone in your life also with a small child that you can share this with.

Because I found it an immense, an immense help just to have other women, and they were women obviously, going through the same thing at the same time, just to say all this stuff too and to hear it back at me from someone else. And then you sort of lose the shame because you realise other people are feeling exactly the same thing. But I guess that's what our lovely listener is asking of our lovely listeners. Yeah, I just hope that, particularly as the weather gets better, I know it's ridiculous, but it's easier to get out. It makes a huge difference.

Parks are brilliant. Make eye contact with any other woman who's shoving a pram along because I guarantee she'll stop and chat. And also don't be afraid to be the one who says hello. Yeah. You know, I'm sure this isn't a unique experience at all, but I definitely made some of my best friends in playgrounds because we bonded over that look that we both gave each other,

which was in the eyes. And all it takes is for you to say hello or someone to say hello to you and you'd say hello back and you know hopefully you're up and running I think it makes a huge difference the weather actually were your babies winter babies who then yeah yeah so December and February okay so that is see I think that's quite good because then by the time they can be really out and about you can be out and about too. I think a summer baby is sometimes a little bit punishing because you descend back into the darkness of winter. A summer baby, of course, you've got to fit the sun thing to the buggy. Do you remember that?

Oh, I thought you were going to say you've got absolutely no time to get beach body ready. Oh, my goodness. I was body ready within within five or ten years of both births that whole business about your oh i can't even begin to go no that's not no but look i hope you're okay that's basically what we're saying and i think you it just sounds like such a normal experience well that's why i think we both picked this email because even though in my case it's now 23 years ago since i was in your position i can remember it like it was yesterday so trust me everyone's been there and if they say they haven't they're lying okay take it from me i'm gonna pop a caveat in there though i think

some people genuine no i think some people genuinely love that early baby time and I don't want to make them feel bad about loving it. No, but even the people who are loving it will have hard days. Oh, I'm sure, yeah. But I definitely think there were some women who were bouncing around with a little bit more, you know, wumpf. Maybe they hit on the colic product that really worked because I never found one.

Yeah, maybe they were just drunk. I'm sure you weren't. Right, so there is a lovely picture of a young person, Jane, in a housecoat. This one comes from... This is the kind of smut you get on this podcast. Sarah,

who says, once cycling up the... I'm sorry, I just can't say it so we're going to give it the translation apple cross pass listening to your previous show when you read out the breast narrative can't remember the author anyway oh it was ken follett oh was it the breast through the ages breast through the ages how could i've forgotten anyway i've attached my 1990 or 1991 picture of my housecoat or tabard outfit, which I loved. I'm 19. She's 19. Brilliant. I think my mum got rid of it. I'm sitting next to my school friend, Farrah, who is also an avid listener of the show. All the best. Well, it's an absolutely beautiful picture there.

But I think we just need a little bit more information about why you're wearing a house coat in 1990 when you're clearly extremely young. What's going on? You're not doing housework, are you? Well, they don't look like they are. They're sitting on a sofa. It's quite a busy carpet, Jane. There's a lot going on in that carpet. There is, yeah.

It's very swirly. So more detail, please. More detail. Right. OK, let's move on to our big guest. Let's. Because it is Gary Kemp. And we do talk about Top of the Pops in this interview.

And I know we do, all three of us, do sound like a bunch of codgers reminiscing about it. But we are, Jane. No, I know we are. I know we are. It's hard to understate, actually. No, do I mean it's hard to overstate how significant Top of the Pops used to be,

precisely because there was no other screen in the house. And so you remember you'd have to sit through Tomorrow's World. Do you remember that programme? Yes. It was the programme that actually first introduced me to the concept of a computer. A computer? A computer and a phone that you could use outside the home. And was Maggie Philbin demonstrating this to you or was that left to a man?

Oh, no, of course, it was probably what was his name? Michael Rod. Michael Rod. Michael Rod, Maggie Philbin, Judith Hann and William Woolard. I'd completely forgotten William. But all of them irritated the life out of me because it just wasn't Top of the Pops but it was what was on

before Top of the Pops. And then when you got to Top of the Pops, you had to have a couple of really quite filler acts, didn't you, at And then when you got to Top of the Pops, you had to have a couple of really quite filler acts, didn't you, at the beginning, before you got to someone like Spandau Ballet? Well, they do a couple of songs that were sort of, you know, number 19. Yeah, that were hovering. They were hovering around the outside.

And you'd be like, no, we've come for the Spans. Take us to the biggies. Well, actually, I just watched um just to refresh my memory i watched a bit of spandau ballet from a 1981 edition of top the pops in fact it was the christmas day show um it can't possibly have been live but anyway it was the christmas day show paul gambaccini was the jock who was who's it's quite funny because he's wearing a sort of beige suit i mean you could just as easily have popped out to the golf club. I mean, things were very different then.

Male DJs, I mean, very few women were around in radio, so very few women presented Top of the Pops. I think Janice Long did, the late Janice Long, actually. I can't believe she's died. And a couple of others, but it was a bit of a rarity. So Gambo introduces Van Dau Ballet and Martin Kemp is completely topless. Oh, gosh.

Anyway, you'll find it on all good video sites. Yeah. Gary Kemp is wearing a shirt during this interview. Yes. He's still got very sparkly eyes, hasn't he? It was an absolute pleasure to meet him, Jane. No, he was a nice guy and we did enjoy talking to him. One of the most successful British songwriters of the last couple of decades and did look fantastic in his new romantic

pompery, strutting his considerable stuff on the telly back in the 80s. We started off by asking him to tell us about his exciting live podcast show that he's hosting tomorrow in a venue that has a particular significance. Right, so let me just take you back first of all, because on the 29th of August 1976, three punk bands played at the Screen on the Green in Islington, where I grew up in Islington. played at Screen on the Green in Islington, where I grew up in Islington. And I was fortunate enough to go to this gig as a 16-year-old.

There's a bit of a long story. It's to do with this wonderful guy, Stephen Woolley, who is a producer for Palace Pictures. He's in Cannes as we speak. He left school early, he loved film so much, and he went and became the assistant manager at Screen on the Green in Islington. Via him, me and some friends found out that the Sex Pistols, who were kind of talked about

a little bit, but not much, were playing there at midnight with two other bands on that date. And it changed my life, as it did a lot of other people. And when we do the podcast show, normally we talk about this a lot, this event that Guy, my fellow podcastee, didn't go to. So it's become a source of ribbing.

Why couldn't he go? Because, well, unfortunately... Did his mum not let him out? Unfortunately, he's two years younger than me, and maybe he wasn't quite there at the time. And he was also just one of those I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time. So, tomorrow night,

as part of the podcast festival, Guy and I are taking our podcast Rock On Tours live to the screen on the green to rub his nose in it even more. And we're going to be interviewing two people, both of whom played on stage that night, nearly 50 years ago,

Steve Diggle from the Buzzcocks and Glenn Matlock from the Sex Pistols. Take us back to that night in 1976. Why did it change your life? Well, you know, up until that point, I was playing in a band. I was playing in a band with a lot of people a lot older than me, maybe 30-year-old people, and I'm 15, 16. The scene in London was pub rock,

and that seemed to be in awe of Laurel Canyon. It was double denim and Americana, and there were a lot of bands just playing that kind of music, and that is the kind of music I was playing with these guys who were nearly 30 um it came along and kind of blew that out of the water what i saw that night was quite extraordinary the buscots and and the clash and the pistols had an art about them an archness about them cleverness but a rawness and the the music was, for a 16-year-old, was just incredible to hear.

It was like everything that I loved about Bowie plus Iggy Pop and the Stooges and all of that stuff. Plus it was arty. I remember The Clash having their legs wide apart standing in boiler suits with splashed paint all up and down, you know, like a Jackson Pollock. So it was a great night. But what you went on to do with Spandau Ballet,

it wasn't like that, was it? Do you know what? It's not far off, really, because I went straight back the week after, met those guys in my band and said, I'm leaving. Another friend who was with me that night was Steve Norman. Right. Who went on to be in Spandau Ballet as well. We went straight into school the week after New Term started,

went straight to the music room and set up our amps and tried to play like the Pistols and the Clash. And that was when Tony Hadley came in and sang and John Keeble, and we formed Spandau. Now, what makes it similar is that a lot of the people that were in the Blitz Club that began the whole neuromantic scene in London were also at those early punk gigs and I think in many ways Malcolm McLaren's formula of how to break a band and and and to be the house band of a particular new youth cult movement,

we took that all on board when we were starting Spandau. And have many people over the years come up to you and been able to describe going to one of your gigs in the same delicious way as giving them permission to release something of themselves that they might not have had before? Well, I think, you know, those early gigs we played at the Blitz were, you know, were quite extraordinary sort of events to be at or on the HMS Belfast when we did that.

Yeah, I mean, so many bands sprung out in the 80s based on a few handful of bands, you know, Arsene Duran, ABC up in Sheffield, Human League. You know, there was a zeitgeist that was happening in 1980 when it was our turn to be the next movement, if you like. And, yeah, I think that was the case. I was a really nerdy teenager in Liverpool, Gary, and I used to read about you in The Face.

And there was real exclusivity about you, with cubs like The Blitz, with terrifying people like steve strange on the door and i used to sit there and just think well what are my chances if i can't get into places like that i'll never i'll never be fashionable enough but look where you've got to look at me now no um but did you understand because you i know you're i appreciate you're from working class backgrounds already but there was a real exclusivity well i think there was with the punk scene as well it was quite to the Sex Pistols was not easy

and to find out where they were playing and all of that sort of stuff. But I think mystique and mythology is what you're creating right at the beginning. And that's what people kind of desire. If they can't get in through the door, they want it more. But you know that can't last for long. We wanted to be successful.

We wanted to sell singles. We quickly wanted to get out of that and and into a record company and you know and and and have people like yourself come to the show just break it to me gently gary and i did in the end by the way see you live so that's right yeah but i think you know before the internet as we all know you know it was all done on you know people going into phone boxes and saying you know have you heard, is there something going on at such and such a house or such and such a club? And I think that was the thrill,

that sort of detective work that you had to do to find out who was coming to your show. So do you ever wonder about how you would have fared in those early years of Spandau Ballet if it was now, if you were born of the TikTok generation and the streaming generation? I think it's much harder to retain any mystique. I think if mobile phones were around at the time when we first started playing, someone would have filmed it, put it on YouTube,

and someone would have commented underneath saying, rubbish, that would have been it put it on youtube and someone would have commented commented underneath saying rubbish you know that would have kind of been it uh so so i think not revealing oneself is part of the thrill but of course nowadays we live in a time when everyone wants to reveal everything about themselves you know so i think it's i can't tell you how to break a band now it's uh yeah and it's a weird one isn't it because actually uh i can't think of a enormous kind of superstar who's been born uh you know into the music industry i don't mean literally born in the last kind of i don't know five or ten years there hasn't been and and that's something to do with with the proliferation i think well it's also the dominance of america at the moment

musically because in my lifetime that is only this is the first, it's also the dominance of America at the moment, musically. Because in my lifetime, that has only, this is the first time it's really happened where American acts are the biggest acts in the world. And they're so huge, aren't they? Yeah. So I think it's much, I've no idea how, but it's much trickier. Most of the big acts, English acts that I can think of, British acts, you know, they've been around a while.

You know, there isn't that. And I think people have their own profile, don't they? Everyone can be the star they want to be on Instagram or whatever it might be, Facebook. And you have your own profile page and you can put your own filters on and you can make yourself the star you want to be. And you don't have to learn an instrument, you know. So you don't have to find other people, like-minded people.

And I think the reason those kind of waves of youth culture kept on coming, I mean, my dad was a teddy boy and then there were mods, you know, I used to watch them outside my window because they all went to the pub next door to where we lived. And, you know, and then there were the sort of psychedelic kids and the you know it those waves of youth culture were that has stopped you know i don't i don't see that anymore but that was to have a uniform that you could say hey i'm over here i'm in your gang you know be you know let's let's get together and do something there will be people listening who don't remember

what Spandau Ballet used to look like. I can't remember which one of you used to wear the tartan throw. It was my brother, yeah. That was Martin, OK. But who did that styling for you, or was it all from you? No, it was all from us. You know, we went to the Blitz Club, which was this tiny little club, and it was full of kids who had very little money. It was was it was basically steve strange and russie who arranged it on a tuesday

night because that was the worst night of the week in any club and the club owner was quite willing to have at least a few people in um a lot of them were for some from st martin's school of design doing fashion so those some of those kids made stuff for us to wear. But we were all going into junk shops and into army and navy stores and looking for anything we could find that would make us look different and be different on the street, you know. That's what we really wanted to do. We wanted to be looked at, didn't we? Like those kids who had posh Instagram sites.

Yeah, I guess that's true. And it was a beautiful site, wasn't it? No, I mean, you really stood out. You did. Not to sort of make it sound like old farts corner, but streaming is a bit of a nuisance if you're our generation. Top of the Pops was a massive, massive point in the week at which, because there was only ever one telly in the house,

you'd all gather and your dad would make really sarky remarks about, look at the state of him. You know, and you and your brother with your funny clothes and your i mean all sorts of attitude it was a complete but it was such a big point in the week it was and i think we wanted to make a seminal appearance on top of the pops because we knew that you know my life had changed when i saw bowie do starman on top of the pops yeah i never forget it to this day and i could still feel the goosebumps you know it was an extraordinary moment and and i think everyone wants that moment when they first get on top of the pops you know maybe

Adam Ant had that to a certain extent we wanted to do that as well so you know because your granny knew what was number one didn't she you know everybody that was the the center of of culture of certainly of pop culture um and. And I don't think... My nan's not alive now, but she would not know what number one was. She could have a good guess. She could say Ed Sheeran and pretty much get it right. I don't know what number one is. Some territory should be right, wouldn't you?

Now, we've been talking to Gary Kemp, of course, and we asked him about his podcast, Rock On Tours. Good title, actually, isn't it? Very good. Wish we'd thought of a good one. Never mind, Off Air's all right, isn't it? He does it with the bassist, very successful bassist, Guy Pratt. And it's a very, it can be

very nerdy, this podcast, but it's spectacularly interesting if you love the detail of songwriting and how the best songs come about. In fact, if you love music, you will really enjoy Rock On Tours. And we told him we loved all the detail in it. I think it's fundamentally about our friendship

because we've known each other for a long time and we have quite a strong sense of humour. And if we can bring that out, that's good. And it basically began when we both play in Nick Mason's band, Nick Mason from Pink Floyd. He's called Nick Mason, Sourceful of Secrets. And we've been playing for the last five years with him. Floyd he's called Nick Mason Sourceful of Secrets and we've been playing for the last five years with him and we were on tour back in I know 2019 and we were watching Old Grey Whistle Test uh DVD

all the you know the greatest hits of the Old Grey Whistle Test which is fairly nerdy stuff what facts do we know about Jethro Tull? Well, actually, I do know some facts. And so we would banter stuff around and it was, you know, we'd have a few jokes about it. And someone, you know, in the old days, people would say, you two get a room. Now they say, you two get a podcast. It's very true. Look what happened there.

Dangerous stuff, though. So Guy said, why don't we try and do this on air? You know, we know a few people. We have a little phone book of our musicians and we could start to go through that and see what it looks like. So the first one was Nick Mason. Of course, he had to be, really. Who have you enjoyed shooting The Breeze with the most?

Johnny Marr's great. You know, he has a very similar story, but obviously set up in Manchester, you know he has a very similar um he has a very similar story but but but obviously set up in manchester you know and as same as as noel um is also very much you know into music and very good and expansive about about where things started or came from everyone from hank marvin to mick fleetwood mick fleetwood thatwood was actually really touching because I think something we do, being musicians and not journalists,

is we can disarm people and it becomes like a sort of triple A backstage gathering. And Mick, towards the end of the interview, ended up welling up and becoming very tearful and saying the only thing he really wants at that point is to get lindsey buckingham and the whole band

back on stage one more time because lindsey had left at that time you know we we had uh ronan orzabon you know who was very honest about his about his tricky relationship with his musical partner. That's tears for fears. Thank you very much. Yeah, tears for fears. And it was, you know, I think some, we're not trying to fox people, but I think, you know, they know we're musicians

and they know that, you know, I've had tricky relationships with my musical partners. We can relate to each other. So some things like that come out. We've never once had anyone phone up afterwards and say, you know what, take that out But you were the songwriter in Spandau Ballet

they couldn't have existed without you so the responsibility fell to you, didn't it? And there must have been times where you thought, I've got nothing in the locker here, this isn't working the pressure must have been at times quite tremendous yeah no i i did feel that you feel that not so well i remember once um our second album and we'd had you know we'd had a string of hits and then we released a song

and it didn't make top 40 i remember being at an airport when my manager told me you know it's not going to get in the top 40 this track and i And I just thought, you know, what am I going to do now? Because these guys are relying on me and it's my fault that it's not got in the top 40 because the song isn't good enough. I went away and I decided not to chase any sort of club music or try and do things based on the latest groove, you know, and I wrote the true album.

Then, after that, you have even more sense of concern because you think, well, how do I compete with myself, with that? You know, I've got to write another one of those. But, you know, I was young and it was, you know, it seemed to, it worked for quite a while. And then I think in the end you do get a little bit frustrated by, you know, after ten years things will, you will never be the latest and the most favourite band, you know,

and at that time I think the DJ scene was coming in and it was time for us to move along And do you think that you do still have a lot of good songs in you? I was listening to Paul Simon's Seven Psalms on the way into work today I mean he's written that, he's what, 81 now and it's beautiful music, it's incredibly sad

Is it? Yes, and it really does feel like you're listening to somebody's kind of amen actually but I but i did think god as a body of work that's that's just extraordinary well it's what you need from him then you know i did i had a solo album out two years ago and um i was really happy it made um uh it made album of the week on radio too it didn't make the charts well it didn't make the top 40 just it did make the top 10 when it was on record sales but as soon as the streaming comes in of course you're just batted down

let's call it a top 10 hit but does that have to matter to you anymore because you've been such an enormous success in terms of the figures and the stats and whatever you want communication though you want people to the more people to listen to what you've done and um so i'm you know i i but i'm i'm writing from the perspective of a bloke who's 60 years

old you know at that point you know and and so it's only going to appeal to people of that generation i think and um paul simon by the way there's a quite a funny story when i met paul he was talking about songwriting and um and he was going to tell me how he comes up with his titles and um and he said he was in a chinese restaurant he used to live a lot in london in the 60s and 70s and he's in a chinese restaurant in london and he was looking down the menu at all the different meals wondering what to choose and one was chicken and egg and it was called Mother and Child Reunion and he thought that'd be a good title that's where he got the title that's exactly where he got the title from so he told me unbelievable I mean I know that you are a great songwriter but true is the song that everybody knows.

And you must be conscious of the fact, the number of teenagers who will have had their first snog to True in the 1980s, and possibly even more than a snog to that song. It was just there at every single event I went to, played towards the end of the evening by whoever was in charge of the music yeah I am aware of that because people often tell me that taxi drivers might tell me that or a plumber might tell me that in fact Kevin Costner actually even told me

that True was his song and it belonged to him and his wife they're divorced now so obviously he has a different song now but I think that's yeah you know you know, that is true. There was a wedding song that was used in the wedding singer, you know, as a wedding song. It's a funny tune, actually,

because lyrically it's about not getting someone. It's about wanting to admit that you love someone or that you're, you know, you're attracted to someone, but you don't quite want them to know that you love someone, that you're attracted to someone, but you don't quite want them to know that. Why do I find it hard to write the next line when I want the truth to be said is what it's about? But it becomes a song because people like the music, I guess. Yeah, they're not listening to the words, Gary.

They're not really listening. It's like Every Breath You Take is a wedding song. It's a stalker song. Yeah, it's awful. Have you ever made your love on Wasteland? From Through the Barricades, yeah. Yeah, have you answered that? Actually, I was going to ask.

I think he has. I think you might have done. I don't think there have been many songs written about Northern Ireland, and I would say that was about the only one I can think of. Oh, Belfast boy. Simple Minds. Yeah, it was, I'd had an experience where

the drummer Jim from Stiff Little Fingers, his brother had worked with us on merchandise in the early 80s. And his brother was actually killed by a soldier in Northern Ireland. When we visited Belfast, he took me to see his grave

and on the way there, obviously, we passed through, you know, that divide between the Falls Road and I'm forgetting the name of the other road, but the divide between the communities, the two distinct communities of Belfast at that time in the mid-'80s. And, you know, I saw the barricades and I, you know, you'd be quite shocked when you went and arrived in Belfast, you know, the military turrets. Yeah, and the murals.

And the tanks. And so when I got to the end of that experience, I felt that, you know, I really wanted to put something down in music about a kind of Romeo and Juliet situation within Belfast. And, yeah, I don't think there's anything specific in there that says it's about Belfast. I mean, it says a terrible beauty in there, which is obviously Maud Gonne, Yeats phrase.

But other than that it you know i remember going to belfast sorry to to to berlin on the in the 1990 tour 89 and and we were walking towards the to the wall and we could hear what i thought were birds chirping now actually they were chisels on the wall and we got there and we got a chisel and a hammer and we were all banging away. And I remember creating a hole in the wall and the soldier from East Berlin's head coming through and people driving around in travannes looking at West Berlin. And we played that song that night in Berlin and it had a resonance. that night in Berlin and it had a resonance. If we've got time, you couldn't quickly retell the story of who ends up turning up at the party you had in Nottingham

to celebrate True getting to number one. It's in an episode of your podcast that I listened to. Yeah, we were playing in Nottingham and then next door was Jim Davidson performing and so at the end we went back to the hotel and we were having a party because we were number one that day

and of course Jim Davidson gate crashes with Les Dawson but that's marginally better than Jim I guess and we couldn't get them out, they were both trollied. I think they were our bouncers. You know, they were the last people to be chivvied out.

I remember Les Dawson rolling around. It just made me laugh, Gary, because, you know, someone who bought that album at the time absolutely worshipped you at the time. The idea now, I mean, it's lovely to meet you, actually. You know, that's a personal highlight for me. But to know that such a celebration was savaged by savaged smirched yeah that was our guest gary kemp and jane and i went for a little bit of decompression couple of hours in a chamber with reduced oxygen

in order to come down from that interview it's actually not the first time I've met him because he did in what must have been one of the weirdest kind of link-ups, Jane, a Christmas special for BBC Radio 4's Saturday Live programme helmed by me and Joan Bakewell with Gary Kemp and Richard Coles, the four of us presenting a Christmas special. You had to really, really fight for a line in that line-up. I bet you did. But it was interesting. It was very interesting. Do you listen back to that a lot?

No, no. In fact, when he came in, at kind of slightly clock I got the right kemp and I don't think it was something that I'd made. I mean, he remembered before I did, actually. So, you know, hopefully it was a pleasurable experience for him.

But it's just quite odd, isn't it? Gary Kemp and Joan Bakewell. Richard Goles and Little Old Me. It's very odd. Radio 4. Radio 4 Soup. I think it's more of a, it was quite a thick stew, actually, I would have said. I don't know more of a quite a thick stew actually

I would have said. I don't know what it was. An artisanal offering, whatever. Can we just have a quick word about Joe Nesbo? Yes! He was yesterday's guest. Now, he was interesting wasn't he? Because we did sort of challenge him a bit because I think we both felt

that we're heartily sick of this whole idea that women in corpse form cluttering up almost every crime novel. Can it just can it end soonish, please? I suppose. But then we've got to be honest, we read this stuff. Well, actually, I'm not particularly a fan of Joe Nesbo, but what did you think? So I thought that Joe Nesbo was surprised to be pushed back, actually, when we were talking about the more macabre elements of his writing. And I think his justification, not that he needs a justification, actually, Jane. I mean, he is a wildly successful author.

And actually, he's been a very successful man. I mean, he played football at a high level. He was in a rock band that was highly successful. And now he's casually gone on to be one of the world's bestselling novelists. Yeah. So, you know, it's not for us to challenge other people's affirmation of him. And that's what it is. It's 55 million copies sold worldwide but I think he was a little bit surprised that we pushed back on just the notion that what you put on the page in fiction might have some kind of wider ripple effect in real life and it's obviously

a question he's been asked before and I've heard him be asked it before and he says well actually it's the other way round. It's that writing reflects what's happening in real life and women are being attacked and there is a huge epidemic of violence against women at the moment. But I'm going to have to go and have a really, really, really big think about that, Jane, because I think in allowing a celebration of the more macabre elements of violence against women,

I think you do justify some of it. And it's not a position that I held at all as a younger woman. So I just have to think it through, whether it's my sensitivity to the world, whether I'm being a hypocrite because it didn't used to bother me then. Why does it bother me now? You know, is that something of a kind of just souring of the female mind? I don't know. I'm going to have to think about it. Well, you're right. I don't think when I was younger I thought that much about it. But now I look at things like the tourism around the serial killer the so-called Jack the Ripper that whole business it's just nauseating well do you know

the BAFTA being won by the Jeffrey Dahmer series as well yeah when it was up against spectacular drama that was entertaining and funny and clever so that that kind of celebration, and, you know, Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't killing young women, was he? Just the celebration of killing in a weird, mutilating way, I think is, I just find it strange. And I completely take the point, don't write in and say one is real and one is fiction. That's not a link I'm trying to directly make. I'm trying to work out my own place as a reader or a viewer.

Well, we are in sort of difficult territory and serious territory. So at this point, I may as well bring in this email from a listener who is writing in the light of the death of Rolf Harris, the paedophile Rolf Harris, who died, we now know, a couple of weeks ago, but it was announced yesterday. And this listener says, I've spent 10 years looking after the victims of paedophiles. I've spent many hours supporting them to give their best evidence against the

might of a defence barrister in court. These paedophiles are not monsters. They are ordinary men, quite often actually held in great esteem by their community. They can be vicars, priests, teachers, uncles, fathers, stepfathers, imams, grandfathers, brothers. In my 10 years, I have not come across a female paedophile. Now, this is our correspondence experience. I am not, I don't believe for one minute that female paedophiles do not exist. I just think they are incredibly rare. Anyway, that's me just trying to give a bit of balance there. But anyway, it is a lady, actually. She goes on to say a monster conjures up an image of a nasty, horrible creature, identifiable, identifiable by all. But that's the point. Pedophiles are not obvious to people.

That is the pedophile's strength. And that's how they get close to children. And that's how they abuse them. I have seen countless sex offenders. They are normal looking people, she says men, of all ages. And that is the problem. And it's perfectly natural, I guess, to other paedophiles because it's so much simpler to do that and call them monsters and that satisfies a craving we all have to make them something completely outside ourselves.

But if only they were like that and it's interesting isn't it that the pictures that are now used of paul gad the pictures that have been used of um philip scofield's brother it is the classic criminalized shot yeah and of course they look very different in real life oh yeah they had outside of a prison van or outside of a police station but you're right we like to as soon as we recognize them for what they are put a certain kind of image on them because it makes us feel more comfortable doesn't it completely that's what it does it's um yeah it makes us relax and think well we'd never be like that yeah we'd spot them we'd spot them a crowd. Because they're monsters and we're not.

But, you know, I was grateful to our correspondent for that first-person experience because I think that we have talked a bit about this before and I know that we've had some correspondence on the matter too. Maybe we'll talk about it a bit more in the future. But just not being able to have a proper conversation about the proliferation of paedophile material at the moment and stuff like that is incredibly unhelpful, isn't it?

Yeah, I know I've talked in the past about the day I spent at GCHQ. Have you mentioned that? But one of the people I met... Kate, have you ever heard her mention that? No, she hasn't. No, so come on. No, but I... Yeah, serious point. that but one of the people have you ever heard her mention that no she no so come on no no but i serious point they um i i spent about 20 minutes with um a man whose job was to track down

paedophiles and um it's an incredibly difficult thing to do and he told me that his he was up against it to such an extent that the truth was that they could only really focus on the paedophiles who have regular access to children so in other words people in a position of authority I mean it's it was it's a deeply troubling thought and a horrible set of circumstances but they are out there and as our correspondent says in her email, they look like often people who are hugely respected in their local communities. And in some cases, for very good reason. And of course, that's not to suggest that there are millions of these men out there. There aren't, thank God, but they are there.

Anyway, you're right. We do need to have a try to to do this again but even in podcast form it's not terribly easy to do well it's not easy and also i'm very well aware jane that lots and lots of people come to this podcast because they've had quite a hard day they want a bit of light relief they want a bit of light relief and uh you know are grateful to us for discussing whether or not a tabard is a housecoat and a housecoat is a tabard. So we will always, always do most of that, but we hope to be able to also embrace a little bit of the dark stuff sometimes.

We've talked about some quite meaty things recently. I think certainly the estrangement conversations that we've been having. And actually some of the stories just about sex, not having sex, what sex means and stuff. Those have been quite hefty, too. So I'd say bring on loungewear just for a little while. And perhaps tomorrow we can have a day in which we don't talk about Henry VIII's ulcerated legs. That would be a really good start. Let's come on. Let's be positive now.

We won't talk about that tomorrow. OK. Will you come in loungewear tomorrow? No. The Times have done a big thing about how you can't wear a floral midi dress or now you can or something. So I thought tomorrow I'm going to wear one. OK.

I think the story today was that they'd got the story wrong. Oh, you can now. And now you can. Yes, I think. But I think that's based on the fact that women have consistently kept on wearing them

because, as the Times, I think, wrote today, they can take you through from morning to evening. Day to night. Yes, day to night. Day to night. Day to night wear. I mean, who are these people who change about three in the afternoon?

I don't know, but here's a question to discuss tomorrow and then we need to say goodnight. When you get home from work, do you change into something more comfortable? Well, it's funny you should mention that because I usually do put on tracky bums or this. This is the cusp, the important point of the year where I go from my heavy duty sweat bottoms to my lighter ones, which are more like they're more like pedal pushers.

OK, right. It's a return to form. OK, well, we'll discuss all of that. Quick recommendation as well. I mentioned it on the show, the radio show, which, by the way, you can listen to. We had an email saying I didn't realise I could listen. You can listen to the radio show, can't you? Yes, it's free. It's free. Just get the Times Radio app

and then we're on at three o'clock. Really quite good sometimes. It was good yesterday. It's quite good today. It's all right. All right. Anyway, whatever. So I just want to do a hard recommend for the Kemps mockumentary. It's quite good today. It's alright. Alright. Anyway, whatever. So I just want to do a hard recommend for the Kemp's Mockumentary. It's on the iPlayer.

If you're a big fan of Spandau Ballet or a fan of the Kemp Brothers, you'll love that. It's properly funny. What's the full title? Just the Kemp's. Is it? No, it's the Kemp's something something. Well, just get it. If you just go and search on iPlayer the Kemp's, you'll find it. It's an hour. It's properly It's a mockumentary. It's a mockumentary.

It's a mockumentary. You'll laugh and laugh. Yeah. All righty. Good night. Come in your slippers tomorrow if you want to. Come in a little bit of a silky kimono. We don't mind.

As long as you're here, we're here for you. Well, I'll be channeling high tea and muffins tomorrow. I like to stay formal, actually. With this dressing down. It's not for me, Jane. It's not for me. Good night. formal actually so with this dressing down it's not for me jane it's not for me good night you did it elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.