Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Men whisperers...(with Movember)

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

In this special bonus episode brought to you by Movember, Jane and Fi chat about men's health, the impact it has on society and the importance of raising awareness.They're joined by Dr Zac Seidler and Sarah Coghlan from Movember to discuss the issues surrounding men's health.Movember has been a trailblazer in men's health since 2003, championing new research, cutting-edge treatments and healthy behaviours. They want to make sure more men know what to do when health issues appear, and are advocating for change and more government action around men’s health. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Off Air and to a special bonus episode made possible by Movember. Now as you may know already we've just had Men's Health Week in June. Men's Health Week is designed to raise the profile of men's health and equip all men and boys with information and services they need to live a longer, healthier life. If you didn't know, then I'm going to inform you that Men's Health Week ran from the 10th to the 16th of June with Father's Day. How clever. Falling on Sunday the 16th.

So it's quite timely that we're here today as part of this special bonus episode to talk about men's health with two people who really do know all about it. They're from leading organisations campaigning for awareness and change within men's health, Movember. So Movember is a global men's health organisation on a mission to take awareness of the importance of men's health and just how important it is for a healthier society all round. The unacceptable truth is that too many men are dying

too young from largely preventable conditions and many others suffer from poor health. That's why Movember is taking a stand by shining a light on the true impact of men's health on families, on friends and on communities and to encourage people to take action so we can change the face of men's health. And it is true that we've all got fathers, brothers, sons, friends, partners that we love and just as women's health matters to more people than just women so men's health impacts every one of us. So today we're joined by Sarah Coughlin, Global Men's Health Advisor and Dr Zach Zeidler, Global Director Men's Health Research. Sarah, Zach, good to meet you both.

Thank you. You've made a real effort, Zach. Just tell everybody where you've come from. I came from Sydney. It's only a measly 26-hour flight, but for you, anything. Well, thank you very much. We were both touched, weren't we? Sarah's only come from Bromley, so we're not getting quite so much credit.

Why are we here, Sarah? Can you just explain why uh women's health uh is one thing and men's health is apparently something else but but why i think we're here because it's still not widely understood that men are dying five years earlier than women um for largely preventable reasons that the effect of that ill health and premature death falls to all of us to either pick up the pieces from or be part of the caring of unwell men who could be having much higher qualities and healthier lives than they currently are.

And I think that isn't something we talk about every day, so great opportunity to have that conversation. And is your focus on physical health? No, we're thinking of the whole man when we talk about men's health. We talk about mental health and physical health and social health, all of those aspects of what it is to be a human. Yeah. Zach, you're a psychologist. So do you understand men fully? I'm a man whisperer. Do I understand myself? That's a real question. It's an ongoing journey to understand the depth and diversity of men's experiences. And I think for a very long time, we've put a lot of homogenizing language around men being one thing to everybody.

And that means that our system has actually failed them in many instances, because they show up with so many different faces and have so much depth of experience that we really need to mine. Can we tackle an immediate elephant in the room that somehow men might be responsible for their own early demise or some of their own ill health because they simply don't go to the doctor? They are men and they can't make a doctor's appointment. Is the truth in that at all? There is, but there is also a lot to be said for the way in which men are socialised over time. That whole idea around stoicism and self-reliance that is bred into us from an early age, which has long-term ramifications on when crisis arises, not having the understanding,

the literacy, the knowledge of where to go and when and what is actually going to help. I think that there is a lot more motivation amongst men to get their lives together, but there is not necessarily the response. It often falls on deaf ears. The way in which men's vulnerability or them talking about their physical health, the way in which they express what's happening to them doesn't often look or sound the way that we expect. And so it doesn't often hit the mark. And so what we're trying to do at Movember is move away from this idea that you just need to talk more. You need to be more vulnerable and everything will be solved. That's not the answer here. We need to make sure that if men are opening up, that everyone is ready to listen. And we also

need men to take control and understanding of their lives and the fact that these stereotypes that permeate in our culture are not helpful. They are fundamentally harmful in many ways to men and it is about reinforcing healthy masculinity. Who do you want to be? What is your purpose and meaning? And that's been weaponized by many people. There's plenty of bad actors who are using that to try and pull men in the wrong direction. What we're trying to do is show men their capacity for growth and to protect and provide and look after those in their lives while looking after themselves it is true isn't it sarah that often it falls to a woman if if indeed the man is is straight to make the man do something about his health yeah and actually that message isn't

always that warmly received no by the by the man and it's not actually easy for the woman to deliver always either yeah i don't think the burden of this should fall to one or the other. I think that is really important. I think often to your first question there, we expect men not to do these things because we're sort of conditioned to think, well, men don't go to the doctor. And if the surgery, if the setting, if the situation isn't responsive to him when he does go, he may not have been near a healthcare setting for decades because men do have these big gaps of accessing healthcare. And it's very different for him than it is for a woman. And I don't think it's a woman's responsibility to get men healthy. I've been in men's health for 20 years. It's not my responsibility to get them healthy. But I think it's our responsibility to

make sure regardless of gender, people know how to access help, when to access help and what getting help looks like from a sort of a strength and taking things in your own hands and solutions kind of way. I was quite shocked by the statistic you quoted about men living five years less than women. Where does that come from? Is that a global certainty? So in the UK, across the board in all countries we work in, men are living less healthy and less years than women. And we're not seeing huge improvements in that. So I think, and to Zach's point, you then see great diversity in those

numbers across different cohorts of men. So we see much bigger gaps based on where a man lives in the UK. He's likely to have much poorer outcomes. So we know that men do engage in riskier behaviours when things are poor. They smoke more, they drink more, they're more overweight. But the truth of that is one part. But as Zach said, there is also a system at play and there are norms playing out here that are all kind of actively holding some of those results in place. Can we talk very specifically about the types of things

that men are struggling with? So in a physical sense, about the types of things that men are struggling with. So in a physical sense, what is the most likely illness to hit a man in the UK? So you're looking at traditionally cardiovascular disease, we're thinking prostate cancer, suicide. Three quarters of all suicides in this country are men.

There's something fundamental about that statistic when you hear it that's quite shocking. That has been the case for, I think, ever since we started recording figures. Suicide is a male phenomenon. You know, we're losing 13 men a day in the UK to suicide. And the ripple effect of that is, you know, 135 people are typically directly impacted by a death of a man. And the intergenerational trauma that comes from that. We need to understand that these are preventable deaths, that there is a way to understand how to create a system, but also to create education and family lives where the cost of living, the financial stress, relationship breakdown and divorce, all of these things that

are considered up in the ether are actually the greatest risk factors for men. It's not necessarily a history of long-term depression. It's what's happening in their life now and how we can go about actually ameliorating those stresses so that he feels capable, so that he feels like there is a self-fulfilling prophecy that goes on here. When we say, oh, men don't seek help, oh, toxic masculinity. These things get thrown out and men hold on to them. And it feels like it's a part of their truth when in fact, that's what we're trying to break down. So we should be challenging those expectations constantly.

Quite often we talk about the lack of funding within the NHS. Obviously, it's a very key conversation this year because we're having a general election. How much does that play into both of these problems about physical and about mental health? Is it true that if there was more money available, the outcomes would be better? I think that we need to get to the bottom of the fact that more is not always the solution. We need to be looking at what, what type of services are we providing? Do men actually connect with them? Do they feel, you know, I've done some research that has shown that 45% of men who attend therapy drop out prematurely.

That cost us a lot of money to get each guy in. The amount of mothers and wives who are pushing the door open to get them in there, and then it fails to connect. That is such a wasted opportunity. And so that is not going to be fixed by having more counsellors or cheaper therapy, because we need to make sure that the person sitting across from you is trained effectively, that the system can hold them, that when they walk into a waiting room, they're not met with women's health magazines. They need to feel like it's an accommodating

place where they belong. And in the physical realm? So I think without a doubt, there's always more that could be done with more money. But I think Zach's right. I don't know that it is always about money. So much of what we see is actually about community-based interventions. There are only seven countries in the world that have a men's health strategy. This is not one of them. You know, the UK is now one of only two countries in the G7 with those statistics going the wrong way for men's health longevity. So I think it is about identifying men's health as an issue and saying that something needs to be done. Prioritising that with a men's health strategy would go a long way to telling men

that this is an issue, that we care about them and that they're not being overlooked, and that they're part of a wider system of healthcare investment. And that's not always about money. It can be about redirecting existing funds and it can be about thinking, how else are we turning up prevention? In a prevention early intervention space, so much of this work can be done in community settings, in sports settings, in schools.

It's not always about the NHS needing to have more money from a men's health outcomes point of view. Do you know, until Zach mentioned it, I hadn't thought about the doctor's surgery. By the way, I can't get an appointment. I haven't been in one lately. But the last time I did go, it is a curiously feminine space. And actually, GPs generally, I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. There are now more female GPs than male.

I think a lot of us, if we're honest, would prefer a female GP. I don't think so. There are now more female GPs than male. I think a lot of us, if we're honest, would prefer a female GP. I don't really care. But if I was given the choice, I'd go for a woman. But I don't know what it's like for men. I mean, is that a part of the problem? Well, they're catering to an audience, you know, over time, it's expanded. And especially when you look at therapy, the amount of men who are showing up, it's always about 25 to 30% of the market. And so naturally, you're getting more women coming into this space, the majority of their clients are women. And so you end up with a system that is feminized. And that's not necessarily beneficial for anybody, we need to have an inclusive, you know, and this is not about either or, it's not about fighting

between men and women, we need to understand that this is, we need to put the politics aside and realise that there is, we need more pie. We shouldn't be taking from women's health. We work really closely with the women's health sector. The fact that there is a gender binary means that whenever you talk about men, they say, what about women? And vice versa. We need to move away from that cul-de-sac because it's not a good narrative to have when in fact, these are mutually reinforcing elements. And Sarah, what is in a men's health strategy in another country that actually has one? Well, Zach could probably speak to that because he's from a country that has one. Australia is well recognised for its men's health strategy. It's about prioritising investment and actually working with a sector, building capacity in a sector. Zach, do you want to speak a bit more

to specifics of the Australian men's health strategy a sector. Zach, do you want to speak a bit more to specifics of the Australian Men's Health Strategy that really... Finally, and you're going to play the land down under while I say this, I'm going to use it. No, we're not. Jane and I have got some hats with little cords. Oh, thank God. There are no flies here.

It's really about making sure that you have a coordinated approach that is government, you know, sanctioned in many ways to go, this is something that is very important to us. It's about understanding all the way from grassroots to services to suggest that this is something that we need to prioritise, that we need to understand better. Really what's happening is that all of these players in the men's health sector are just working off the smell of an oily rag. They have very limited function. They have very limited remit. And they are trying through passion alone to keep this thing going. We need evidence-based programs. We need to make sure that this stuff works and that it's not what's happening at the moment that you see in all of these sectors,

which is that some guy leaves, he's the CEO of some corporation, he then goes and sets up a new charity and we get this splintering of the sector. We need to be collectively coming together and working together rather than every man and his dog going off and starting something new. Can you just tell us where the evidence is for the benefit of a men's health strategy in Australia? Are Australian men now healthier than their

British counterparts? They definitely are. Yeah, we've seen, there is always progress to be made, but our life expectancy is moving in the right direction. The UK is not. The UK and the US are both slipping. And that is something that is very difficult to comprehend given how our way of life is only getting better, you would expect. But the way in which men are, and the polarisation of, you know, life, this lack of social cohesion that's happening across the board is meaning that relationships are suffering.

Men, you know, there's a loneliness epidemic that is going on out there. The amount of young men who are seeking education and employment and able to date and all of, you know, there is plenty of media column inches coming out about this at the moment. But we need to move away from this alarmist narrative and move towards solutions. And I think that that's what we're trying to do is go, what are some fundamental things that government can do, that philanthropy can do to shift the state of men's health? Because it's not looking good.

Well, let's do exactly that then with the time that we've got left uh within november can you give us some examples of where men can go what they can do what you're talking about really concrete examples you can start by growing a mustache in november um i think jade and i are happy we're looking to expand my ability gets better every My building gets better every year, that's for sure. We joke about it. It's a silly idea from a pub in Australia 20 years ago. But changing your appearance and walking into a workplace

with a three-day-old moustache with some ginger hair appearing in it that no one knew you had is actually a really bold, brave, vulnerable thing to do. And it does get people talking and asking why. And, oh, that's that thing for men's health. Well, why men's health? And we can start to break down some of the barriers and build education there. Movember is investing a lot in young men's mental health. So we've got programs across the UK, building mental health resilience in sports settings with rugby league, with football clubs, and all of that is available for people to access

on the Movember website. We're also in the next month releasing a men's health report with new evidence, new economic modelling around what is going on in the UK with men's health and what effect is it having on society? What are we losing in productivity, but what are we losing as a community as well? And so we'll release that in mid-July and we're putting a lot of pressure on the new government, whoever they are, to sort of stand up and acknowledge men and put some men's health strategies in play to invest in the health outcomes, improving those health outcomes for men. In the long run, are you aiming, I don't know,

let's do some blue sky thinking. What would be good? A kind of male MOT at, say, 25? Well, I think even men taking up what's already there, right? So in the UK, every man and woman gets offered a health check at 50. I've just had mine in the post because I turn 50 next week. It's hard to believe. It's impossible to believe, Sarah.

So, oh, thank you so much, ladies. But men don't take that health check. We know they don't. Yeah, they have the data. The data shows that men don't take up that health check in anywhere near the numbers that women do if men did take up that health check we'd see significant savings to the nhs because we'd be able to pick things up earlier and those men would live healthier happier longer lives so if we did one thing from a blue sky point of view

it'd be to get every 50 year old man you know to say yes to that health check and turn up don't go i'm guessing it's because they don't go, I'm guessing, is because they don't want to hear what's discovered. It's 100%. That is so... I hear that all the time in rooms discussing this. I'd rather not know. So therefore it is about breaking this barrier around

men don't see health care as necessarily a thing that is for them. No, and the problem or the great joy of being female is that you've not really had any option. You don't have a choice. No, but that's the thing. Building a relationship and trust between men in the health system. Women go from a very early age. You know, there's a built-up understanding of how this thing works, what we need.

And there's not necessarily a necessity for men to engage with it. But what we can do is build in those time points. You know, we talk about new dads. There is so much data out there to suggest that men are not even looked at or engaged with in the maternity situation. And so what that does is it tells them, you don't belong here. This isn't a time for you. And so if we can create those connections during that integral time period where the man is in touch with the health system, imagine the longevity of their belief that this place is something that actually works for them and with them.

Would it be fair to say that most younger women will find a relationship within the healthcare system based on their pain? You know, it's often about periods, it is often about your gynecological bits. And given that men don't have that, how can you make a relationship for a younger man within the healthcare system when actually they might not really know what it is that they should be presenting with? Well, we work a lot in the testicular cancer space, for instance, and nobody knows that that is the most common cancer in young men. It happens from 25 to 40. And everyone's like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. If we can go and make sure the parents are speaking about the health system in a way that is not just blowing it to bits, but rather suggesting, let's take you in,

let's build up this muscle where you understand the GP, you can have a conversation with a family practitioner over time that actually you've got trust and respect for. Because at the GP, you can have a conversation with a family practitioner over time that actually you've got trust and respect for. Because at the moment, it's like nothing happens and then everything hits the fan and you're 35 and you're facing divorce and you have no language to connect with them. So if we can get that going throughout the teenage years where parents are bringing them in, it's not only for vaccines, but there's all of these different discussions around what GPs can actually provide as the gatekeeper. And it's not seen as this, I only do this in a time of crisis, but rather it's a relationship that is going to benefit me. Because if anxiety and

depression shows up typically in late teens, the ramifications of that that goes untreated over time is massive. If we can have that relationship built up, we can ameliorate so much pain and suffering later on. So if you are a concerned parent or partner of a man, whether they're young or old, or the daughter of one, what is the best? Let's assume this is a heterosexual situation. What should you do so that you're not considered to be a bit a bit naggy yeah i think that's a really great question so regardless of maybe you've spotted that your husband is not doing so well mentally so he's he's behaving in a way that he hadn't behaved

before maybe he's not sleeping he was always a great eater he's not connecting with his friends you've noticed something so it could be mental health it could be physical health, you know, he should go and have that 50-year-old health check. I think it's about understanding men need different ways in which to feel safe to have some vulnerable conversations. So we know through research that men are unlikely to open up face-to-face. So let's not start that conversation on a busy morning, on the fly, across the table from each other. Let's make the space recognise that men are more likely to open up and have a conversation shoulder to shoulder. So how do we create that? Is it in the car whilst driving somewhere? Is it whilst we're walking down the

fairway playing golf this weekend or, you know, watching a game together on the couch, a TV show with a relevant topic? Making the space for that. I think knowing that you need to be able to listen in that moment is critical, which is not giving solutions. Like, I think you should do this. It sounds like you're going through a tough time and being able to kind of make space for that. We talk about this a lot at Movember, like holding that space with a man or a woman. I think it's one of the greatest gifts you could give a person, listening and sitting in that space and not trying to think forward to the solutions. And then checking in, making sure you do that follow-up piece, offer some, you know, offer some exploring of options. Maybe it is about making that appointment for the health check, but maybe it is about getting out and doing a bit more

exercise or seeing somebody to talk through whatever it is you're going through, but then checking in and doing that follow-up, making sure they know it wasn't a one-off thing, that you care about them, and you're going to come back and check in in a week's time. Did you do that thing we talked about? It's about relentlessness. And you have to have the energy. But this is about men looking after men as well. This is really important. The emotional labour and the burden always falls on women's shoulders. We need mates to look after one another. Jo, I'm so glad you said that, actually, because I completely take your point. You know, the men in my life who I love, I am so happy to help, but I do also want their friends to get involved. It's

exactly what we do in the female community. Exactly. And that's why women are safeguarded, because they look after each other. They have that communicative ability. It doesn't need to look the same. Men are going to exchange banter in different ways. It doesn't need to be all vulnerable, dark conversations. But what I always say to guys when they're like, oh, it's uncomfortable. I don't want to ask him if he's had suicidal thoughts, for instance. It's like the discomfort of a funeral, I promise, is far greater than just nipping it in the bud. Now you go, you have that conversation and you know where to connect him and he knows that he's cared for

because that feeling of isolation, that feeling of shame and that no one is there for you is the greatest driver towards, you know, that type of risky behaviour. What we want is for men to feel a part of something greater than them. Well, that's a very good note to end on, isn't it?

Yeah. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you both very much, Sarah and Zach. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.