Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Menopausal rage against the smart speaker machine

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

Welcome one and all! If you hear any bleeps in today's episode - don't be alarmed! It's just Jane. Jane and Fi chat avoiding car parks, compliment etiquette, and Fi being a little teapot. Plus, Nikki Doucet, CEO of the Women's Super League reflects on how far women's football has come and the 2025/26 season. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That means we've got 28 minutes. Well, let's make the most of those 28 minutes. On your marks. Welcome to Go! Off air. I'm Jane. I'm Fee. And we're on off air with Jane and Fee, which kind of makes sense. We're not called Bert and Ron. Because then it would be called something else.

Bron. It's quite difficult to do a portmanteau thing with our name. So we did, well, we did used to do some work for a, production company called Fane, which some of you more enthusiastic listeners thought was a company, thought we'd set up our own company. Oh God, we're just not that sorted. And called it after us, but it's not us. So I think Jaffy is better.

Jaffy. Anyway, look, this comes in from Wendy from Five. We love Wendy from Five. And she's apologised for emailing so soon. Don't apologise. but she can't promise no further contact in the future. Oh, it's me. Okay, do you want to explain?

I think it was one of the cameras. Sorry, I thought we might be able to get through it without it going off. Look, in the interest of transparency, everything is content. I'm wearing a blood pressure monitor. And it's just gone off. I suppose, yeah, it's on the half hour. Oh, that's irritating, isn't it? It's not going to be great during the night either.

not going to be great during the show. No, I know. Well, what can you do? What can you do? Okay, so it's a matter of life and death. It inflates a bit. And then it's a mild ache in the arm. And then it goes down and it reports. Yes. You better explain that you are okay.

Oh, yeah, no, I am okay. I've got a, like, a family history of high blood pressure. So I'm just wearing the monitor to see if I need to go on medication. Right. And I'm genuinely interested in other people's experiences of this. So do let me know. And did you have no other symptoms to alert you to your high blood pressure? No, because I don't know what the symptom, no.

No, neither do I. And I'm not a heavy drinker. I drink, but I'm not over-drinker. I don't smoke. And, you know, I probably like it. A lot of people I could probably do with losing a bit of weight, but I'm not overweight. So I think it is just, it's an age and genes thing, I think. Let's see.

Yeah. I have to say, I did hope for you that the monitor might be a little more. discreet, but it's worn crossbody. And there's simply no ignoring it. Although most, because, you know, in London, you could walk around, stark naked or dressed as Henry the 8th, and most people wouldn't say anything. But also, I think it's one of those very difficult things in a work environment where people just wouldn't know whether or not it was appropriate to say,

What's wrong with you? What have you got that thing on for? I'm hoping for a lot of sympathy and support at home from the 20-something like. hell and I am so angry because I can't have a bath tonight. You can't, obviously you can't get in the bath. Oh, you'll be all right. It might be a bit wiffy tomorrow and it's going to be quite warm, isn't it? Exactly. It's heating up. No, I'm thinking I might just be a bit late tomorrow. I might get to the doctors, get rid of the monitor and just get in the shower before I come to work. I think that's reasonable, don't you? What is, and forgive my ignorance on this,

but what is the danger of having high blood pressure? Closer to a stroke? Or a heart attack, yeah. Yeah, so it's not ideal. But loads of people I know are already on these meds, so it's not remotely unusual. And my mum and dad both talk. My dad's still taking blood pressure medication. And there are things you can do like beetroot juice,

which I was initially very sniffy about. But now I'm starting every day with a big glass of beetroot juice. I love beetroot juice. And if you top it off with a little bit of ginger, it's actually a very pleasant drink. And are you worried about your wee? Well, it can be a, it has a rosy glow. It certainly does, doesn't it?

But nothing more than that. Okay. Initially, you look at it and you think, oh my God, have I just weed out a load of rosé wine? And it does look a little bit like that. Okay. Don't mistake the two. I think we've delved enough into health corner.

I think that's enough now. That's all right. Health matters here on off air. Okay. Back to Wendy. Back to Wendy. I have listened to many repeats of my favourite. But actually, it is handy because if the alarm goes off again,

which it will, we know we've done too much. Excuse me. I'm so sorry. I've listened to many repeats of my favourite off-air episodes whilst waiting for the new ones to drop. However, I decided this week to go back and listen to Fortunately for a wee change. 250 plus episodes are available. What a treat. Oh, God. Are they still making money out of us, those people? We need to get our agents onto that.

We're not receiving any benefits. At time of typing, I'm listening to episode 29 with Ed Miliband. Who's Ed Miliband for listeners outside the UK? Goodness, he's the current cabinet minister in charge of his. energy here in the UK and also someone who's regarded as a key figure behind the scenes in the currently ruptured Labour Party. All sorts of things are going on. And he might throw his hat into the ring or is it too late for him to do that now the bandies arrived? I think he might declare. We were just saying how brilliantly at the time sketchwriter, a great man called Tom Peck,

has captured the Burnham phenomenon. And it's just very funny. It's very good. Very very funny. If you only want to read one thing about the current merry-go round of male political ambition on display in this country make it Tom Peck because he nails it every time and there's something so

delicious because it's not very it's not cruel cruel punching down writing it's just brilliantly observed which some sketchwriters of the past and maybe a few of the present can do it's just it's

beautifully beautifully done Yeah, so the blues on jackets in particular are getting used at the moment. And those campaign videos, just if him sort of strut... Hello, mate, hello mate, hello mate, I'm a United fan, I'm a city fan. Tara, hello, mate! It's just bollocks fee. I am the north. Oh, God, I am the north.

At a time of typing, I'm listening to episode 29 with Ed Miliband. All previous episodes have been so entertaining with great guests and without. However, so far there have been a couple of revelations. And Wendy, you've absolutely busted us. As she found some inconsistency. She has. Fee offering Jane some fruit, including apricots on a recent offer. Jane pointed out how much she despises soft fruit, and she doesn't like hairy fruit in particular.

Both of you have stated you don't re-read books, apart from Fee's holiday Rebus read, but Fee has just told Jane that she's re-read a Jane Austen. What else will be revealed, I wonder? Keep up the fantastic work. P.S. I forgot how much I like the theme tune. And Sean Kevenny is just brilliant doing the introses, etc. Well, we don't want to advertise a previous... No, we don't. Especially... We're not benefiting from it.

Too much. But Sean Kevney's little voiceovers were absolutely fantastic. He's a lovely bloke, and we wish him well. And yes, the inconsistencies of any apparent. And in fact, I picked you up in the office yesterday, because you said very proudly, I don't lie. And we have sat on stages when you have said, I'm just honest about the fact I lie.

So with this one in particular, Wendy, what do I do? I'm getting more confused now. Are you lying about the fact that you don't lie? I'm telling the truth when I say I lie. Yes. Or yesterday were you lying in saying that you don't lie and you tell the truth? Where am I? I mean, I prefer to just go back to the apricots. I still don't like those.

In fact, maybe the lack of fruit in my life is one of the issues I've got. Who knows? But anyway, I apologise for our inconsistencies, Wendy. I think if you listen closely, there'll be many, many more. We would, if we could, work for Inconsistency FM. We would. In fact, we should set it up when you get the sack. Which would be available on two frequencies at any given time.

Yeah, but not necessarily at the same time, because we'll be really, really vague about when it's available. I was really looking forward. You know when a drama show, you think, oh, that drama series, that ticks every box for me. Have you seen the advertisements on Channel 4 for their show Falling with Keely Hors and Papa Ased You? Yes, about the nun and the priest.

The nun who goes over the wall. Yeah. It's really boring. Oh. I watched the first episode last night. Oh, see, I was nearly asleep. I wasn't expecting wimple ripping action from minute three,

but it's moving at a... I don't know, for whatever reason, it didn't grab me in the way I thought it would. I don't know why anybody else thinks. Let us know. Okay, maybe it'll pick up. Have you tried legends? Not yet, no.

I was saving that. It's not starring Steve Coogan, actually. Steve Coogan's part of a fantastic cast, and it's based on a true story of previously, considered to be rather insignificant group of customs officials who took on a remarkable job in trying to bust an O-CG. And I know that acronym, because I've been watching an awful lot of OCG action. Organised criminal gang.

Hugh. I mean, you and I could be part of a disorganized criminal gang. A chaotic. Eve certainly could. Criminal gang. and they attempt to bust some really nasty pieces of work who are trying to bring heroin into the UK in the 1980s it set against the backdrop of the political pressure

Thatcher wanted a win on the drugs war in the drugs war but I would highly recommend that, highly recommend it It goes a little bit boys with guns at times and there's quite a lot of men giving menacing looks at each other, but it's also absolutely brilliantly done. Are anorax worn? Some anoraks are used, but there's not a heavy anorak usage. Okay, right, right?

I was just wondering whether Andy Burner would find something he could relate to. No, there is an element of it is set in Liverpool, and some of the people in Liverpool don't come out of it very well, the chain. There certainly have been an indebtorne. are drug cartels in Liverpool. That is undeniable. Yeah. Well, it's got it all, hasn't it? Because it's close to the sea. Yes. Some very large houses near where my dad lives are owned by drug dealers. Do you think people are going to come for you?

I suppose I can't be 100% certain in the spirit of your guest yesterday that they are indeed owned. But basically, the only people with loads of money are in that part of the world are drug dealers or retired footballers. They all live in very similar properties, large gated mansions. Yeah. Well, that's pertinent actually. to a book that we've both just read London Falling by Patrick Radden-Keefe, which I think apart from telling such sad story about a young guy who just gets completely caught in the headlights

of wealthy London. And really, he loses himself, doesn't he? And in the end, he jumps off a balcony. That's where the book starts. What the book does so brilliantly, I think, Jane, is expose just how few questions we ask about very apparent wealth. So if you were driving close to your dad's house

and you'd never been to the area before and you saw presumably normal housing, normal places, normal life going on and then just great big, whacking wealth. You're completely right. Your curiosity goes, I wonder who owns that, who's made that? And then if you find out it's people

who don't seem to have a job, we should ask more questions about where they got the bloody money from. They could, of course, have inherited it. Well, they could have done. That is a possible. But I'm with you. If you don't see people leaving alarm cock, alarm clock

Britain, those of us who do set an alarm and go out to earn a living. Working people. Working people. That's right. Then we should say, how have you got the bloody money, mate? Where's your money come from? Yeah. But do you know what, Vee, if you come with me,

I'll go up to one of those big houses. Let's go knock on the door. Hello! We're from off air with Jane and fee. Did you get your money from? This is part of our unique detective series. Call, definitely call for backup.

Call for backup and wait. Immediately. Call for big backup. And just don't ever, ever go into a car park alone. There's so much crime in car parks, meetings in car parks, getaways in car parks. It's a lot, isn't it? On the whole, I avoid car parks generally.

because they're difficult to navigate. They're very difficult, because they're all trying to make so much money now. The spaces are too narrow. People make a lot of unnecessary fuss about parking. I just think stop the car and get out. Honestly, it doesn't have to be precise. Is the engine on? No, get out. I hate drivers like you.

Drivers who take up two parking spaces. I don't like you. Can I just do a public service announcement, please? because Nullig did email us ages ago and I'm really sorry because this slipped off my plate. I know when it comes to shoes, Jane is a perfect five and I think Fia's a size three. I'm a wide eight myself

and while shopping for shoes often reduced to tears like a teenager these days there is happily much more choice. But you had emailed him because your friend Sarah had mentioned to you how she's a wide size three and she finds it very difficult to get shoes and she was wanting a couple of recommendations, which I'd said I'd do and then didn't do. So my recommendations would be,

there's a very expensive firm dealing specifically in wide shoes, Sargasso and Grey, but they do have a lot of sale items, and also if you pop that into some of those well-known second-hand areas of the internet. They'll pop up. Their shoes do pop up quite a lot, and they do a very good 35 or 36. I think a 35 is actually a 2 and a half.

stop me when your blood pressure comes down. I think this is bringing it down. I think this is doing its job. Diastolic by systolic. I think we're right on 90 over 60. I don't think it's ever been that low. See, that's what mine is. Mine is so low.

I quite often have to drink a lot of fluid in the morning just to get it up. And is that a genetic thing? I don't know. No. No. I don't think so. And in fact, all of his family died young of heart attacks.

Anyway, we will have medically qualified individuals listening, so do give us the benefit of your experience. Should I carry on with a lovely list? It's bringing everybody. A very calming, calming experience. Oliver, a... No, I can't even spell today. Oh, what?

O-L-I-V-A. They do a very good 36 I bought from them in the past. They go quite quickly, though, because it's a genuine small 36. and can I just chuck in a recommendation for Nike teens? So I think nearly all of the leisure wear athletees wear shoe companies make a big thing out of doing kids' shoes as well. Nike, for me, are absolutely bang on the mark in terms of size.

Nearly all of their teen stock seems to be permanently on sale and they don't do that funny change where you can't get the same style. So I'd recommend Nike teens. And just to say our guest on the podcast today is Nikki Dissette, who is the chief executive of the Women's Super League, and she used to be in charge of Nike. Did she?

Yeah. So that's right, isn't it, Eve? Yeah. Well, that's very impressive. Yeah, it's just a link there. No, it's nicely done. Thank you. Anyway, I hope that helps, and I'm sorry.

It took us so long to get to it. Eve, that is brilliant. And leave in the production direction there, because it was very nicely done. we were going to bring you Lauren Southern, who was the woman who got into the manosphere, realised she was in the wrong place and got out and is happy to talk about it.

But that interview is still with the lawyers because it does need to be checked because she spent a lot of time with Tommy Robinson and she spent too much time for her own safety with the Tate brothers. And she's very honest in the interview about the things that she witnessed and she tells us quite a lot

about certainly a couple of trips that she went on and we have to legal it there you go but she's coming she's coming soon she is okay now um this is from andy who ends it with walking a tightrope Andy and this is a bit of a dilemma for him he needs help he says we love it when people email just saying quite simply I need help and who better to turn to than us experts in life I think that's what we are isn't it

oh god no no exactly look at our lives love I do I do Andy says as a late 60s. Late 60s. Widowed granddad, marriage celebrant and registrar. Yes, you have previously aired my takes on tattoos and brooches. I spent a lot of time with young brides who splashed out on looking positively jaw-dropping for their big day. Make-up, hair and a wedding dress,

the combined cost of which could have probably bought them a small car. My female colleagues can breeze in with, You look stunning, while I just fear coming across as some sort of perv or misplaced Kassanova. As a result, I make a point of not referring to a bride's appearance at all, but I do sometimes worry that this is in itself causing offence, or at the very least, disappointment. So how does this well-meaning, but overly cautious registrar,

boost a bride's confidence immediately before her ceremony without sounding like I've wandered into an etiquette minefield? Eyes up, professional yet relaxed and friendly. what would the hive approved approach be? I'm all ears, says Andy, but quite definitely no wandering eyes. He sounds a very, very nice chap, doesn't he? Yeah, but it's a really good point to raise, isn't it? That if we've got to a place where you can't say you look terrific to somebody

because it might be construed in the wrong way, then is that a place we're all happy at? No, and I think you need to be able to acknowledge the effort someone has put in to their appearance because... And that not every compliment is sexualised or a bit wrong or whatever. It's an innocent just acknowledgement of how lovely you look. Yeah. And I think somebody in Andy's position is quite an important place to be, isn't it?

On a particular wedding day, he surely must be allowed to compliment both the bride and the groom. You both look very smart. How lovely you both look. I mean, that's if they do. The real issue is if they... just both look a shambles. But in which case you just say welcome. Welcome one and all.

What a shame, neither the bride nor the groom could be bothered doing anything about that. I mean, you do get people who look remarkably cool and stylish on their wedding day without going the sort of whole hog of the white frock and all the rest of it. And I've always been rather jealous of those people. I think it's a great trip to pull off if you can do it.

Absolutely. There's a very big town. hall on the bus route that I use through Islington. You must know it too. The town hall, Islington Town Hall. Yeah. And they have so many weddings there, churn them in, churn them out. And I'm sure that they do them beautifully. But quite often on the bus, you'll go past the wedding group outside being photographed. And what's so lovely, Jane, is just the amount of different costume on offer. So, you know, some Saturdays you'll go past people who've really gone traditional, almost full

train wedding dress, and then sometimes there'd just be bonkers stuff. I mean, absolutely bonkers. And you see all these people on the bus or coming down from the tube station to join them. And you just think this is great, actually. We've come a long way. Yeah, I think it's where people can peacock themselves

however they want to for their wedding day. Go for it. My youngest daughter is going to, I think it's her first wedding of one of her friends from uni and another woman and it's at Islington Town Hall and they've asked, the hat of couple have asked everyone to wear a hat. So she's a little perplexed by this, but we're going to do it.

We'll saw something appropriate for it to wear. So they're all going to go in their hats and make a massive great show of themselves. Lovely. Be good. I would love to hear from anyone who's been asked to go to a themed wedding because that's a thing as well, isn't it? And I would really struggle with that because it's in the fancy dress kind of area, isn't it? I'm never very comfortable doing that.

People, the happy couple seriously expects you to turn up in 1920s. Yeah. Flapper dresses or something? Yes, really? I didn't know that was. What if your theme was, I don't know, um, pottery. What would you do then?

Oh, well, we've paid a leap there. If it was pottery, well, I think I would probably come as a teapot. Yeah, I would as well. Yeah. Mix and match. Can we just say to Joe that, you need to get a new doctor. Joe sent this. I'm afraid it's not that uncommon though, is it? It's

not, but we are here to support you and actually Jane and I can make the call. I'd be delighted to if you'd like us to. Just listening to your podcast where you mentioned future guest Dr. Amir Khan, who I've long admired as that rare thing, a GP, and what's more, a man who's happy to talk about menopause. I've just waited five weeks to have a GP appointment, still only a phone call, allocated to the male GP who I'd asked not to speak to, I listed some new symptoms I've been dealing with, muscle pain, extremely dry skin, and asked her some advice and tests to explore

whether my estrogen levels were right, or if I was suffering any deficiencies. His response, and I quote was, I don't do hormones, and later in the conversation, it's part of getting old. I pointed out I'm only 56, trying to be active, going to the gym, eating well, and ended up with a begrudgingly awarded

set of standard blood tests. He made me feel like a complete write-off. Having been fortunate enough to take early retirement recently, I was looking forward to getting out and seeing the world, but clearly, Dr. Watsett, thinks otherwise that I should sit down in my rocking chair with a blanket and take up knitting. No offence to all Tom daily followers, and untaken. How are GPs allowed to get away with this? Dr. Kahn, please clone yourself and give us old ladies some hope. You're not old at 56. You're not wrong to be asking for things that have become difficult for you in your daily life to be taken seriously by your GP. I don't do hormones as a dreadful thing

for a GP to say to you. And honestly, I'd phone the surgery and ask to see a different GP and tell them what you've been told and we're here as back up, Joe. Where you're side wing women on this. That's just a truly dreadful GP.

And what does he mean? He doesn't do hormones. Men have hormones. What's he talking about? Well, hormones are just such an important part of understanding the human body. So you're a shit doctor. But do keep going. Don't accept that. And also the standard blood test thing, I mean, it may well show that you've got some deficiencies, but it probably won't be able to show you a very clear read out of your hormones

because they're notoriously difficult to pin down, aren't they? Well, here's a woman, Elspeth in Archer's Country, Worcestershire, beautiful part of the Midlands. And this is just about the menopause. It's interesting what triggers hormonal outbursts in the menopause of woman. she's really delighted to discover that she has in her kitchen something she didn't know existed

a new drawer beneath the oven she just didn't know it was there fabulous find she does say Tutin Carmen's 2 you can charge an entry fee Elspeth to get locals around to admire this astonishing new discovery

but she does say she bought the house 14 years ago so what she's been doing in her kitchen what kind of a woman Elspeth is I just do not know but there you go She's obviously had other things to deal with. It worries me.

She does acknowledge quite how much joy this discovery has brought me. What will I fill it with? Source pen lids, of course. In other news, I really like your Times Literary bloke. That's Robbie Millen. Yeah, he's very entertaining. He often comes on the Times Radio show. Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4.

Get the Times Radio app, which remains unaccountably free of charge. It brings hours of listening pleasure, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. For nothing. but Elspeth, although she enjoyed Robin Millen, had to stop listening to Michael Ball in what she describes as a cloud of irritation.

But as she points out, that's the beauty of perimenopausal rage. It cares not who is caught in the crosshairs and sticks its fingers up at logic. Keep up, keeping up, says Elspeth. Thank you. So she was just triggered by Ball. Well, I know what you mean. Awful.

And the terrible thing, no, no, I don't mean that against Michael Ball. I know what she means about the weirdness of the rage. Yeah, yeah. And the problem as well with having a smart speaker is you can now channel that rage towards a piece of machinery that does what you ask it to do. So there was a morning last week where every single breakfast show was really doing my head in. So I was in the kitchen.

I think within the space of five minutes, I'd shouted five different radio stations. Did you have to go to Radio 3 Unwind? No, no, no, no. I took myself outside, gave myself dressing down, before attempting to do that. Sometimes I do end up on classic calm at the moment. Oh, classic calm is the answer, their commercial answer to Radio 3 on watch. Yes, I prefer classic calm. Do you?

Well, you're embracing your commercial side. And by the way, it wasn't all of the breakfast radio stations that were doing my head, and it was just the news. It was just, oh, God, oh, look. Was it full of men in Anirac saying, hello, mate, hello? It was. it was a display of America I've lived around here for years.

Here we go again, let's just talk about. Man with ambition. Yeah, great. Love the show, Zoe, last Saturday, my husband and I were out having a yumcha. I don't know. I don't know what that is, so you need to explain. Do you know? No, I don't know. Has yumcha made it to the UK? Surely, it's basically dumplings for brunch. We live in Perth, but I'm British.

Anyway, a couple came in sat near us. The man was wearing incredibly short shorts. Very typical of many Australian men, especially middle-aged men with beer bellies. My husband made a joke about, how short the shorts were and that something might pop out of the bottom and then it happened.

A full testicle popped out and was gently resting against the man's thigh on the bench seat he sat on. He enjoyed as yomchar. I spent our entire meal trying not to look or laugh wondering how many public seats are laced with the residue of men's testicles. And I think that's a good place to stop.

Well, I don't like the proximity of testicles and yum char. No, in that email. But we do need to know what is this? It's a dumpling for brunch. It's a dumpling for brunch. Yes. None of this is helping. The dumpling is different to the testicle.

Well, we hope it always will be. Don't get those two. The monitor's got off again, which is the indication that we have done enough. I think we've probably done more than enough. Has it gone off again because we've been talking about yomchat? It's yomchuk. It's just taking a reading.

I can't wait to see what that particular reads. I'm really interested to know what Bob pressure I have during the podcast. I don't know. I hope you can hear the sound effect. Anyway, let's not make a joke about it too much because, obviously, having to hide blood pressure is very serious. I'm trying to wind you down again. If she's here tomorrow, we'll see you then.

Our next guest, who is the woman who's running the Women's Super League, It's all about getting people to go to the games. Women's football isn't just about the lionesses, although their incredible ability to entertain by grinding out tournament victories with bucket loads of drama cannot be underestimated. There is no doubt the success of Serena Vigman's England has driven more girls to play the game

and some more spectators to the Women's Super League, won this year by Manchester City. The boss of the WSL is a Canadian former basketball player called Nicky Deset. She's proud of the progress made in the women's game, but really keen to make it clear there is so much more to come. Nikki told me about her own athletic prowess. I still consider myself an athlete in my head.

I suppose my body thinks another thing. But yes, I am from Canada. I grew up playing sport. Basketball was my main sport, but I played football since I was five. Oh, you have? You've played it a lot. Okay, what were you?

I'm guessing midfield general type. Would that know? Striker. I love scoring goals. Okay. Some would say that's just the attention-seeking. Glory Hunter. Maybe.

Okay. You're prepared to accept some responsibility. I'm fair to accept it. But the great thing about football and basketball from my perspective, it's a team sport. And so everyone has a role of responsibility. And I think that's one of the things I miss right now is playing on a team sport. But being part of football right now and the team that we have at WSO football is incredible. Yeah.

How do you get a job like the one you have now? Tell us about your professional working, your backstory as a woman in business. Yeah. I started my career in investment banking, so I have a finance background, which I think has given me a good foundation in terms of understanding business. I worked at Nike for eight years, and I moved to the UK about 10 years ago. So my family is here. And I ran the women's business for the UK and Ireland for Nike. So I got to know the lionesses and Chelsea and Tottenham where we just signed them as Nike teams at the time.

when I was there. And then I think this role came up and a friend of mine said you should go for it. And I did. It feels like a good fit. Yeah, I think so. Okay. We tend to associate women's football with the lionesses and with the success of the lionesses. There is no doubt that that game in 2022 changed everything in terms of how women's football was thought about. It became part of the national conversation really for the first time. I think so. Well, I think it started probably in 2015 when the lionesses won the bronze medal. So you say that. I mean, I love sport, but I didn't really remember that.

Really? Now, why? I mean, that's a question really. Why didn't I remember it? Why didn't things take off then? Well, maybe it just wasn't ready yet, or it still wasn't quote unquote, mainstream. I think you then have, that was the start of it. And then I think 22, it was a home euros. So I think, you know, the team just at Wembley, that iconic, you know, game, Chloe Kelly, you know, the celebration. And I think that entire team and just, I think, inspired an entire nation. Because we knew the story, or we thought we knew the story, England played Germany in a final, England lose. And when Germany equalized in that game, I thought, I said to my daughter, well, that's it, that's what happens. Well, I think that team proved they're a team of winners.

Well, exactly. So where did that come from and how do we harness that and keep at it? I suppose they've, they've, the lionesses have showed us that you can do it again, actually. Well, I think it's just part of women's football here. I mean, women's football, I suppose, is built on a rebellion and a rebellious spirit. And I think there's a fight, there's a tenacity, there's a never say no, you know, keep trying. And you find a way to win. And I think the lionesses have constantly found a way to win. They're showing everybody and inspiring everybody what's possible.

Yeah, the tournament last year was crazy. because, I mean, I'll just be honest, I watched a lot of it. They were not the best team, but what they had was that incredible spirit, that togetherness. And I don't think I've ever seen it before in any kind of English team that I've ever followed. How do you begin to explain that? I think it starts with the personalities and leadership. So I think you have an incredible manager who's got an incredible support team around her. I think you have incredible leaders.

the lionesses and people who have been there before and know how to win. And I think they pull a team together and it's about the team. And I think even when, I mean, even when you look at their body language, when they were down a goal or irrespective of what game it was, and they have said this in their interviews, they always felt they were going to win. They always felt they can do it. And you never stop trying until the whistle's blown. And they didn't. They didn't. And that's why they did win. Yeah, exactly. So the WSL, you might have expected that there'd be a bigger and better season for them, for you, bearing in mind what happened last year.

In terms of attendance, I've read a couple of slightly carpy articles suggesting that actually it looks like the peak in women's football is over. What would you say about that? Well, one, I'd say that's wrong, first and foremost, but I think we've had the biggest season we've ever had in multiple different areas. So attendance is obviously one way to look at it, but we've had really strong pockets of attendance. So, for example, when you look at the March men's international break weekend,

we had our biggest ever attended weekend ever with 111,000 people coming to watch a WSL game. But is that, I mean, look, I don't want to be a carper, but isn't that because the men's games just weren't happening? Well, I think it's a lot of different reasons. I think it allows it to have focus. I think the women's football, we're trying to find the right times, you know, to make it easy for fans to come and enjoy and watch. And we are growing sports.

So when you look at our viewership reach on Sky, we're up 30% year over year. When you look at our international reach and how international our league is and how strong our league is international, all of that is growing. We have incredible pockets of growth with attendance. You look at Arsenal as an example. But they are the leading example of a team that can fill the Emirates a few times a year. And I think if they were compared to the average male team in the Premier League, they wouldn't do badly across the season in terms of. of average attendance, would they? I think they're averaging more in average attendance

than every single men's championship team and 10 Premier League teams. So I think what they're doing is incredible. And I think there's other pockets of growth. The infrastructure and the investment that's going into, you have to remember, women's football is growing up in an era where it's just getting investment over the past five to 10 years.

Men's football grew up in smaller stadiums and grew into bigger stadiums. We're growing up in bigger stadiums. We're growing up in bigger stadiums, and we're trying to find, you know, what works best for us. You have Brighton that have just announced they're going to build the first ever women's only stadium in Europe. Everton moved to Goetheum Park. You've got Chelsea now who have announced they're going to play every game at Stanford Bridge. And I think each team's at a different stage of development in terms of talking, you know, understanding their women's fan base and how you bring people in to create a great experience.

So who are the fans? I guess you've got people who didn't like men's football at all, but caught the lionesses bug and now follow a women's team. Who are the others? I would say we have fans in three different buckets depending on their relationship to football. So you've got fans that have come in through the lionesses and have never watched men's football.

And care even less or thought they didn't care? Well, I think they have a different perspective. They don't have the... They're still learning the game, but they love the players. they're learning the rivalries, they're learning, you know, the excitement of our game and the passion behind it. And it's a great space to come into without judgment and just be whoever you want to be and come and enjoy. I think you have fans that have what we would call the secondary fan or someone who's the men's football club fan. And they're finding the women's team or they're bringing their family to the club through the women's team for the first time.

And the idea that it's a family-friendly setting, that isn't insignificant, is it? I think it's for everybody. I don't think, I think it can be, it's family-friendly. I think it's for single people. If you want to come have a drink, you can drink in the bowl in our stadiums, which is, I suppose, different than men's football. And I think if you just want to come out and watch a great game of football, that's for you too. So it's inclusive.

It's for everybody. It's passionate. It's exciting. And we want everybody to come. And is there an absence of the kind of needle that, I mean, I've been to a lot of men's football matches, I'll be honest. I've only, to my shame, I'm just going to be honest, I've been to one women's football match. And that was in the Olympics in 2012.

So a completely different atmosphere anyway. You'll have to come. I definitely, I feel so, I'm going bright red when I think about it. I definitely will. But there is something, if we're honest, those of us who've, I mean, you know, I first went to watch Liverpool play when I was 10. So I was horrified, by the way, by the language. when I was hearing words I didn't know existed.

And there's a, there's a feeling of mild to moderate aggression in the air at some men's football matches. Now, could that be replicated in the women's game? Would you ever like it to be? I guess what I would like is to not have the direct comparison every single time. Okay, right, I take it, okay. But I, you know, and I say that because I think it is the same sport, different products. So, for example, you know,

Keeley Hodgkinson goes out and runs a great time in the 1500, the 800, or whatever race she's running, you don't say, oh, shouldn't run as fast as the male player. And so I think this direct comparison is it's a different product, which has different experiences, different behaviors, a different style of play. You know, when you think about our play, we have more goals scored from open play than from set pieces versus men's football. And a lot of people would really welcome that, would you know? And it's, again, it's a different style of play.

You have, we have, you know, 42% of the world's best athletes, best footballers playing in our league. We have almost all of the lionesses apart from a couple of them playing in our league. So I think it's a great sport. It's exciting to watch. Are you a bit sad that Arsenal didn't make it to the final of the Champions League this season? Because that would have been another fantastic opportunity, wouldn't it, for the whole game in this country? I guess I'm sad that a WSL club didn't make it to the final. Sorry, that's what I mentioned.

But, yeah, Arsenal obviously got far in the semifinals, and we had three WSL clubs in the semifinals, which is pretty incredible with Chelsea and Man United. So I think it shows the strength of our league, which is a really tough league to get out of. It's becoming more and more competitive. We're seeing teams from the bottom of the league, take points from the top of the league.

And right now what's exciting from my perspective is you're seeing more and more investment come into the game, which is what's required. Yeah, and it's because people want to be associated with a product that's, and I know you're not all that keen on this, but it is family-friendly, it is inclusive. And we know there are, I mean, let's just be honest about the men's game, the homophobia is still rampant.

There's still no openly gay male footballer in Britain playing at the moment. I mean, that situation is just baffled. It's absurd. And I wouldn't blame any product for wanting to be associated with the WSL, for all those inclusivity reasons? We have an exciting product. I think we have incredible athletes who are inspirational role models

who are excellent at what they do and their craft in terms of being an elite footballer. And I think that's why you're seeing some incredible partners come on board with us for the first time. We've been able to renew our broadcast partners with Sky Sports and BBC. Barclays has reinvested at levels that we haven't seen globally

Nike's reinvested, EA has renewed, we have Panini, and then we brought on barred Mercedes-Benz, British Gas and Apple. I mean, I think it's an impressive roster of partners who want to be associated with us. You mentioned Panini, I did get some stickers with my M&S shop last week. And the women's players are in there as well. Of course. I mean, I know I got a real buzz from that because I hadn't realized that was happening. What about the potential for injuries in the women's game? because I know the ACL is something that's the,

can you just, I never remember what ACL stands for, anterior cruciate ligament. Right, okay. And am I right in saying that happens more frequently in the women's game? I think it's absolutely a devastating injury, and I think it's because it's so devastating and it takes so long to recover, it's obviously, you know, you see it more. I think what our data would suggest actually the injuries

that's the most common is actually hamstring injuries. And so one of the things that we've done as a league is we've created a sports science football, her course. Because, again, in the history, I think there's only been 6% of all sports science medical studies done on female athletes. And so again, we're in this stage of development where there's more research coming. We're not small men. We need to be trained, you know, for the female body. The view was, was it that a woman was essentially a slight, shorter than average man? Well, I think there was just, I think the studies just weren't there at that time

because I think the women's sports market continues to evolve and show the growth. And obviously, to perform at the highest level, how we train is going to be different. You know, the angle from your hip to your knee is a different angle on a female than a male. So how you are going to run and how your foot hits the ground and the impact on your knee is going to be different. So how we train needs to be different. The next women's World Cup is next year in Brazil. In Brazil. Okay, so is it next summer or autumn? Summer. Okay. So I wonder how much of an eye you'll have on the men's World Cup this year because we're already at that stage of really bigging up England before we start knocking them down again, by the way, which will happen in, well, the day after the match against Croatia,

probably but all that expectation is already humming and um what what impact would it have on the women's game if the men did actually do the unthinkable and win i just i think that would be incredible you don't think it would take away because i always think it's rather funny that the in a good way that actually england women have got round to winning things before the men have i don't again i don't think we're competing with each other i think we want we want England to be successful, whether the men or the women. Like, this isn't an either or. I'm sure all of the players are supporting them and hopefully vice versa. I mean, that's what I would like to see more. I'd like to see, you know, the NBA players in the U.S., for example, show incredible respect and

support that's authentic to the WNBA players. I would love to see more of that over here in terms of more male players watching WSL games, supporting the women's teams, as the women's do, and vice versa. I don't think they're necessarily competing with each other. I mean, Ian Wright is a great somebody who's always closely associated himself with women's football. But I struggle, if I'm honest, to think of current Premier League players who have really gone above and beyond in terms of supporting the women's game, but perhaps I'm wrong. Well, I think there are pockets of it.

I would just like to be able to see more. I wonder how many people in this country truly understand, particularly a lot of men, actually, the social history here, the fact that in 1921, the FAA banned women from playing football. Now, I mean, you tell me what was your sort of happiest moment watching a WSL game last season? Oh, gosh. What was the best goal you saw?

What was the moment? Olivia Smith, I think it was the opening, the Olivia Smith goal against in the Emirates, her opening goal for Arsenal. For me plus, I'm Canadian, so. She cost, was it a record-breaking? She was a record-breaking fee, yeah. A million pounds.

Yes, first one. But, yeah, so I mean, I have, but I've enjoyed watching every team. I mean, I'm neutral. I don't have a, I suppose I want them all to win, even though they can't. But I want the entire league to grow. And I want each team to be competing. I want each, I want to have more jeopardy. I want fans of any team to feel hope that they can win, because that's what I feel is exciting.

So I think you're seeing a more competitive WSL2, which is that league has been. incredible. That's the second division. We're going to have our first ever playoff in coming up this weekend, Charlton against Leicester City. We're expanding the WSL next season from 12 teams to 14 teams. So I think again going back to we're in a growth trajectory. You know, the sport is growing. There are 2.7 million girls playing football in this country. Put it into context. That's more than boys and girls playing rugby combined. And so, you know, they see what's possible. And the next generation, coming through, whether that's a girl or boy, or seeing the lioness is winning. They're going to the victory parade in front of Buckingham Palace. You know, they're inspired by both of them. They don't see gender in the same way, I suppose,

and it's men's football and women's football. It's not football and women's football. That was Nikki Doucette, and, to be perfectly honest, I should have gone to a women's football match fee, and I've only been to that one at the Olympics. Yes, you should. I know. I'm not proud of it.

I just, I can't wean myself off the men's football. I really, I can't. Anyway, I really do think it's so brilliant that so many girls are embracing the game and playing it. That's the most important thing, actually, that they're playing it, and they're allowed to play it, and they're encouraged to play it. I think that's fantastic. Anyway, I hope more people do go next season

when it all kicks off again. Oop, beep. We go. God willing. And that's it from us. Jane and Fee. Jane and Fee at times.orgia. Please don't worry too much.

We're very close to a large teaching hospital here at London Bridge. It's one of the reasons I took the job. So all will be well and we'll talk to you again tomorrow. And well done, all of you Arsenal fans. Oh, God. North London, gosh, last night. It just erupted. It erupted.

I could just hear it all the way around. And I know that you're not a big. fan of the Arsenal and we have mixed feelings about it in our house because my sons are Liverpool supported too but actually... Well I'd rather them than the... North London was so happy. Jane, everyone was so so happy

it was really... Well I'm glad for North London. That's enough though now about it. And rather them than the alternative. So there we are. Congratulations everybody. Mikhail Alteta, get better trousers. Or at least a belt. Just something to keep them up.

Always fiddling around, isn't he? Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the Executive Produce. producer is Rosie Cutler.