Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Modesty held together with a brooch and a prayer... (with Sarah Vaughan)

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

It’s Tuesday and we’re all here, but Jane’s not entirely sure how she’s getting home. She can worry about that later... Jane and Fi tackle the big questions today: Was Ambridge a Roman settlement? Does the broadcasting industry have a disproportionate number of Brians? What did people do before buttons? And are hedgehogs creepy? Plus, writer and journalist Sarah Vaughan discusses her latest book ‘Based on a True Story’. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Has Olly Robbins stopped? That's not him, is it? I think you must have done. I mean, apart from anything else, the select committee started at what, 9 o'clock, and nobody had had a comfort break. I always think that. Surely it claxon sounds and everybody heads to the loo. By 10.30, you'd be able to see, especially in the morning. You've had a lot of coffee.

A lot of tea. Yep, a lot of hydration. We're just briefly straying into politics there with a reference to Olly Robbins, appearing at the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. Sir Olly. Sorry, Sir Raleigh. Yeah. So we can't yet tell you exactly what he said.

You wouldn't want to hear it from us anyway. It all needs a bit of shakedowning, doesn't it, before we know exactly? I think it isn't the top line that he... I wouldn't even go there, Fiona. Let's wait until a man tells us what happened. He couldn't and wouldn't, but the emphasis is on the couldn't, elaborate on whether or not Peter Mandelson. Lord Mandelson had, whether they'd found anything different or new when they did the special vetting procedure

that led to him not getting through the special vetting procedure because as Soroli said, if I answered that question, that's what would be news for days, weeks and months to come. There's people trying to find out what that was. But it's one of those weird things where in not answering the question and alluding to the amount of interest there would be in not answering the question,

there's an awful lot of interest in the fact that the question couldn't be answered. Got it? Yeah, I think so. There are still questions that need to be answered. Thank you. That's a simpler way of putting it. Well, I don't know.

But, yeah, I mean, it's just a lot, it's a lot of stuff for one man. It is a lot of stuff for one man. I got quite drawn into what you were saying, and then, if I'm honest, I went a bit sleepy. Just about 25 minutes in. I was on the underground,

which was still functioning this morning, by the way. But I don't know how I'm going to get home. I don't know how I'm going to come in tomorrow. But don't worry about me. Oh, you'll be fine. Just get a line bike. Oh, God. Because after all, we've tried them, haven't we?

I am really jealous of people I see on these bikes. But I just get on my men. I don't trust myself to get on one. I really don't. You should wait and go on one of the new ones with the smaller wheels. because apparently they've been designed to not have quite such a forward thrust

which is difficult for us smaller ladies. Yeah, it really is. We should say we have just spoken to a fascinating woman, haven't we? Well, you'll remember, dear listeners, that we had quite a long conversation about perfumes being really, really over the top on tubes and in confined spaces now and in answer to a question about why that might be, a scent specialist called Susie Nightingale emailed into the program

and answered all of those queries and she was so good we just thought let's book her as a guest so Eva's booked her as a guest we have interviewed her and that edition will go out on Friday and you and I were no next Friday that edition will go out next Friday Nicola Fox is answering all of our questions about space this Friday and then we move on to scent Friday after show your workings in the march and everybody but Susie Nightingale was superb Jane wasn't she?

I could have listened to it. We could actually have talked to her in all seriousness for another hour at least about so much social history in what she had to say about smells and perfumes and how they're marketed and the names they're given and the bottles they have

and how it all began and why it began and why we are in our cleanest ever iteration as humans keener than ever on covering up our natural smells with artificial ones. It's really weird that, isn't it? Her knowledge, especially about the domestic household cleaning market, is superb. And I couldn't recommend that addition highly enough.

I know that we will have a great edition this Friday on space, so I'm just looking ahead into the longer view and saying, don't miss Susie Nightingale. She was a lovely woman as well. She was, yeah. Apart from that, we didn't rate her. No, she was great, and you can hear that a week on Friday. Now, finally, finally, we've had some praise for our lecture on the history of broadcasting,

which has gone down well with some people. You're rambling about Bruno Trevor Brooks, radio carts and left behind vary focals, kept this bored, so-called housewife, thurry and entertained for the last 15 minutes, while cleaning up the debris of Friday night's supper with friends. I do actually work part-time outside the home, although technically inside the home is mainly on Zoom. But my husband describes this as working on and off yesterday,

which led to me going for a very long passive-aggressive walk alone. So what I'm trying to say is thank you for keeping me sane. Right. Is that Beata? No, it is from Sarah. Oh, okay, because there's a lovely one from Beata in Canada as well. Oh, yes, there is, yes. And Jin is in Watchet.

In Somerset, I don't know, Watchet. Have you heard of Watchet? Watch it. I heard you say in jest I know that you'd not had had emails about your old days in radio Well it wasn't in jest I was entirely serious

I had to say I found it really interesting says Gin My eldest son went to York to do physics It wasn't until he was there That I discovered the reason he'd gone there Was their university radio He'd never done anything like it before But joined the society straight away

And was heavily involved for three years As a presenter But also on the committee He even got some equipment And made shows from his show from his bedroom at our house during COVID. It was amazing hearing our usually very laid-back son chairing a committee via Zoom.

He now works for Next Warehouse Radio as an assistant producer and presents a bit of their content. Sorry I've rambled. Should have given a proud mum alert at the start. No, Jin, congratulations to your son. He's obviously working in a profession he and an industry he absolutely loves and credit to him for pursuing it.

Brilliant. I need to know more about Next Warehouse Radio. Yes, and we could also do, as we are both completely anoract up to the eyeballs, we'd like to know more about it. Because there was a time, wasn't there, when all big shops had their own radio station, there was quite a fight to get work experience at Topshop Radio. And United Biscuits. Yep, and not, yeah, was it Dorothy Perkins?

They had a very good one too. I think they did, you're right, yeah, I think they did. And it was a real thing, and that has just completely faded away with the Spotify playlist, doesn't it? But it was lovely because you'd be wandering around Topshop and somebody would give you a bit of a time check tell you what the weather was like helpful. You know, there was a special offer on open-toed sandals going down and you know off we'd chug into spinning around

get out of my way. Hot pants on three. This comes in from Kaye who's joining us from Hamilton in New Zealand who says you don't have to read this out Oh don't worry we're going to Kay I'll just do a nerd brain dump below, FYI, in case you do want to nosy at it. Like you, I look back at my very early radio days fondly, especially as I had mostly multi-broadcaster roles in the first five years,

my 16-year career. I did everything except manager station and sell airtime. Now, hang on, hang on to your headphones for this, Jane. We're going nerdy. Is this a deep nerd? This is so deep nerd. Yes, I used cart with a single commercial or new voice clip loaded onto each one, then placed in a wire carousel next to the mixing desk.

I also recorded their audio material onto them. I remember the minor thrill of pushing the pulse button to create an electrical pulse on the end of the recording into a cart recorder or player machine, which meant that once played, the single cartridge would then fire off the next advert in the stack. Yes. Usually three to four separate cart machines on top of one another

to the right of the mixing desk. I'll get my commercial breaks all sorted for the hour, stacked up on the desk, and brain like a sieve, note repeat adverts on slips of paper as placeholders in the stacks, and load each commercial break into the carpet scenes as I went. I'm just getting too excited.

I'll just read you a tiny bit more at the end because it's a very, very enjoyable email, K. In the early 1990s, the mid-sized city station I worked at automated by using six cassette machines. hooked up to a Commodore PC, which directed which machine to play. Cassettes, and each machine had a tape which had multiple tracks on it. The PC did the switching between cassette machines.

Okay. Is there much more? No, it's brilliant. It meant that if you needed to record new audio into that system, you had to pick a player that wasn't being used much in the next two ad breaks. I mean, this is very complicated stuff. So we were slightly saved because, I mean, I know that you... You did have some experience of the commercial networks.

But I was just at the BBC, so we didn't have to do adverts as well, because that all sounds. Well, I was never, as a DJ and commercial radio, allowed to operate as a single joker. That was only when I went to the BBC that they let me in front of a live microphone as a female radio. Because on commercial radio, I was just the lady who laughed at the man on a Sunday morning on the request show. Like that? Just like that. A girlish titter of appreciation as the man jock made a funny remark. Yes, well that was my role as well when I first... That's what ladies were for back then.

Did a bit of co-pressing, but then I moved over to the other side of the desk and drove it. And that's what we should always have been doing. Yeah. Kay, thank you. I really, really enjoyed reading everything about your experiences. Just one tiny other thing that she notes. interesting when I started in radio the first city station I was working at

as a cadet had five men on the station all called Brian I wondered at the time of being called Brian used to be a prerequisite for employment in radio it occurs to me something subliminal may have been working for you fee in naming your male cat

so does the broadcasting industry have more Bryan's than other industries might oh gosh that's a very good point I think it's quite a lot of Nick's aren't there He was slightly late-night snipey Brian. He came to five live. Brian Hayes?

Thank you. Yes. Oh, no, he was a nice man. No, but no, but he was quite. Oh, he was, yes, he could be vicious with his callers. Yes, so absolutely. That's what made him very, very listenable to. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but I can't think of another Brian. So, Kay, maybe it's just a head. A New Zealand thing. Gosh, yes, well, that's going back a bit. I just go back, broadcasting by candlelight. Actually, he died many years ago, but he was a, Radio 4 legend, wasn't he? He was.

He was a Brian, and he wasn't red-headed. No, he wasn't. Brian from the Archers is my favourite Brian. Shall we move on from Brow? Oh, you're so mean. Oh, I know people out there are listening to the Archers as I am. And loving it. So now somebody sent an email saying,

are you going to attend? Is it the 750th anniversary of the Archers? It's not the 750th, can you imagine? I think it is the 75th anniversary. BC or 18? Ambridge was not a Roman settlement I don't think I'm not sure

I think it's 75th I'm not going I don't see my a straw and plough feet that is not how they speak the geographical location of the archers is Worcestershire or Borsetcher as they call it in the programme

now quite a few people I'm just not going to I'm not taking any criticism of the archers I'm simply not quite a few people I'm here for it. As regular listeners to the seminal documentary, I refuse to countenance that it's actually a drama,

can testify that it's going through a bit of a golden patch. There's a really interesting plot at the moment, which I'm absolutely loving about Brian. Right. Cathy Willis was our guest last week talking about the importance. She's a professor of biodiversity. She was giving the National Trust Octavia Hill lecture, which you could hear on Times Radio, and you can still hear it, in fact.

You can spin back in time. It was broadcast on Saturday night at 7 o'clock. But she was our guest last week talking about the importance of gardens and being out and about, and particularly in association with health. And Pippa says my local hospital has gardens for patients and staff. My friend in a haematology ward for three months had a garden view. And I'm sure it helped her recovery and a garden room which also helped as well. Enjoyed your discussion of nature as a healer as a volunteer walk leader in Buckingham.

I can confirm that walking and company provide fantastic connection. Pippa, thank you very much indeed for that. And I absolutely agree. I think any view, even if it's just of a tree from a hospital ward, is absolutely, it's a revitaliser potentially, and so many people don't have it, but it is brilliant when they do. Yeah, it would be lovely, wouldn't it, if there was more money available in the NHS for hospitals

to be able to green themselves up. Yeah, definitely. But you can just hear the headlines if that was where the money was being spent at the moment, which I know is frustrating. And, you know, we would probably all say it's a bit wrong. But I think we'd be waiting a while personally, which is sad. I should have read this earlier, and this is terrible production. But if Eve is up to it, she may well have put this email in the right place in the podcast,

in which you can just say, what a woman she really is. If, on the other hand, you hear it directly after Fee's been talking about brooches, you'll know that Eve just couldn't be bothered moving it. Right, it's from David, who says, I just wanted to let you know that the research you discussed in your interview with Cathy Willis has been put into practice in at least one place in the world. After many years as an NHS exec, I was recruited to Adelaide by the South Australian government to help reform their public hospital. And part of my responsibilities was the old Royal Adelaide Hospital, a classic late Victorian era hospital that had gone through many redevelopments over the years and was really past its use by. date. I developed a business case for a new 800-bedded Royal Adelaide. The business case incorporated the health economics evidence that patients recover more quickly if they have the piece of their

own room and even more so if that room has a direct view of nature. The evidence was so strong the state agreed to support the business case and the extra capital costs so that every inpatient would have their own bedroom with onsuit and that 80% of them looked out onto the the surrounding Adelaide Parklands and the remaining 20% to internal green courtyards. Each single inpatient room has a sofa bed so a family member or friend can stay over. Wow.

I mean, this is just remarkable stuff. It is, isn't it? The hospital opened almost 10 years ago. I still live in Adelaide, says David, but now work in the not-for-profit disability sector. And people who know I was involved in the development of that hospital still tell me how they, a family member, or a friend benefited as a patient in that hospital.

That's so interesting, David. I mean, I did do a bit of work for the NHS in this country, and I will say that some people prefer to be on a ward. I mean, I think about it, obviously, it depends on the nature of why you're in hospital. But I don't think having a room totally on your own is for everybody. I can completely see its merits for lots of patients, but maybe some people like to be in the mix.

They like the hustle and bustle and the activity. But I totally get the view of nature. I mean, if only we could provide that. Very much so. And also, I'm intrigued by the addition of a sofa bed. Incredible, yeah. Because for so many people, the comfort of knowing that a loved one is with you all night, you know, which is the creakiest, loneliest, most worrisome time in your head in a hospital, and it's often incredibly hard to sleep.

I think that's just wonderful. Well, we take it as read now, and mercifully I've not experienced it myself. I'm very grateful for it. If your child is in hospital when they're very young, the mom certainly a carer will stay with them, will they? And there'll be a camp bed available to be put up. But that's different from having built it in to the environment. Very different.

Thank you for that. Well, Adelaide sounds lovely. We're creeping ever closer to a visit to Australia, aren't we? If we leave now, I think we could possibly arrive about April next year because we're definitely going to have to take it in stages. Well, there are tube strikes that will be an added worry. Well, you keep on saying this, But there are other methods of getting around London.

You'll be fine. You know, you will. It's only a day. It's not a day. It's two days, three days. You'll be all right. Seriously, you can walk it in about that last year. Just get on with it.

The people who've got bigger transport problems than that. Or get a cab. Get a cab. This one comes in about brooches. Many people have written to us just to say yes. We love them. I'm still wearing mine. I've got a huge collection of them. They make me very happy. This is Catherine, who says, I did come and see at the barbican with my best friend Vicky,

long-time listener, first-time emailer, whom I introduced your show during the COVID years and is now even more of a devotee than I am. So we say hello, Vicky and hello, Catherine. Just heard the episode where you were discussing brooches and I was shouting at the radio. I do, I do. I have about 25, mainly animal-themed, and I wear a different. one every day. Somebody always comments about how lovely my brooch is and how unusual it is to see one being worn. As you say, there are so many beautiful brooches and stick pins that just need wearing. I may be biased because I'm a jeweller of 45 years standing. I did start very young as a Saturday girl in a jewellery shop in Bath when I was 14. Broaches did indeed begin with a practical use,

holding cloth together before the days of buttons back as far as the Bronze Age and there are beautiful Celtic and Viking examples please please encourage Abroach Renaissance Well Catherine thank you for that And of course that makes perfect sense If you just needed to clasp things together And I can picture those really beautiful Celtic and Viking examples

Because they're quite often quite large Kind of Games of Thrones Yes they're larger vibes. Yeah, than we would wear. And isn't it funny to think of a time before buttons? It is. No, it is. It really is. And zips.

Yeah. So there would just be a lot of clasping. You just went out on a wing of bread. It did. And just hoped it wasn't too wind. I mean, I'd tell you what, there must have been people flashing bits of themselves for a place, Jane. I am slightly concerned about that.

Yes. And the Vikings and the Celts, they would have done very well on Etsy, wouldn't they? A lot of very nice stuff going down. Long-time listener, Sharon here from Sydney, Australia. I love listening to you ladies. You are my treat and my comfort. Listen, well, we're very glad about that. We're honoured. Thank you, Sharon.

Now, this is a book club recommendation we've had so many, haven't we? So when are we going to make a decision, young Eve? End of next week. End of next week. I tell you, it was all bunching up, isn't it? The end of next week is very busy. It's looking crowded. Can we not just space out these big decisions?

So this one, and this sounds really, really brilliant, a collection by Curtis Sittenfeld. Yes. What's wrong with that? Where have we got that face on you? No, I just don't like short story. I know that she is a great writer. Yes, carry on.

Yeah, and she's really brilliant. And Sharon says, arguably the best writer ever, in my opinion. It's called You Think It, I'll Say It. And you see, I think that you'll like that. But anyway, we're making the decision for everybody to read it. Not just Jane. And you'll have a lot of time on your bus. so I think you should get it today.

I can finish war and peace if I'm going to go home on the bus tonight. It features stories about different women caught up in naughty social dilemmas, thought-provoking smart and funny. I'm not a short story lover, but I love this collection so much or which Curtis would turn each story

into a novel of its own, which surely is the highest accolade one could give to a short story. Well, irrespective of whether or not we'd choose that to read in the book club, I'm definitely, definitely going to go out and buy that. didn't realise she'd done short stories too. And just the title, you know it's going to be brilliant.

You think it, I'll say it. That is good. Yeah. Okay, let's see if I can be one round. Elizabeth with an S has contacted us on the subject of Cavapoo's and Hedgehogs. She says, how is Jane doing with her tech skills? Has she mastered copy and paste yet? No.

I admit, I do sometimes, and I love this from Elizabeth, because this is exactly how I feel about this. I admit, she says, I do sometimes gaze at my finger after copying and thinking, hmm, all that text is on my finger for a while. Don't you think that? No. I do. I don't really do it, but when I do, that's the bit that puzzles me, Elizabeth.

I don't understand it. And now there were no cavapoos in biblical times who were amusing on this last week. But they are a very good breed, introduced in Australia. Back there again in the 1990s. And they were known as cavoodles. By allowing Cavalier King Charles Spaniels to fall in love with poodles, that's a very gracious way of putting it, they've managed to get rid of all those horrible health problems,

and this is important, that the Cavalier King Charleses have from inbreeding. I haven't thought about that. Well, there are just some horrible things happening to dogs through inbreeding. She talks here of spinal problems and retinal issues. Oh, that's horrible. Also, these dogs do not shed, and they are delightful. we have one who works for the Pets as Therapy Charity in our local primary school and local library

and respite daycare centre and they're brilliant. The school's base visits are supporting the charity's read-to-dogs programme. Now the two bothers me, but the programme is evidence-based, she says. Dogs and their handlers undergo a rigorous one-to-one assessment which we pass with flying colours, many don't.

But they can't read. What does that mean? Read to dogs. Well, does it just mean Does it just help the kids to read out loud in the presence of some thing? It's for kids, yeah?

I think so. I might need more on this, Elizabeth. You did talk of the Antipodes. It's interesting that in New Zealand they've had to cull hedgehogs. I didn't know that. As they're overrun with them. It's all our fault, of course,

as the British settlers introduced them in the late 19th century and there are no natural predators. Gosh, I'd love to see a hedgehog back in the garden. I've only ever seen in my adult life because you used to see them a lot when we were kids. I've only seen a hedgehog once and actually that was at centre parks. Really? Yes. Well, what was it doing? Oh, running away. Okay, I've only

ever seen one as well, just once. Was it at centre parks too? It was at guide camp. Okay. Well, that's similar. Which one? But I do remember finding it quite creepy. I think I'd gone out for a wee in the middle of the night, which is such a pain in the neck. Obviously, he wasn't sleeping through then. He didn't want to have to tiptoe. from your tent to wherever the lavatory was. God, not in the dark, in the middle of North Wales or something. And I think I tripped over or encountered a hedgehog en route. Wasn't happy.

I think they're beautiful little creatures. I'd love to see more of them here. But I feel sad for New Zealand. I mean, if you have too many of them, that's not nice for anybody. No. Can we just say very quick hello to Jane, who is listening in Canada, because she wanted to say how much she'd enjoyed listening to Nikki Wiffin. Yeah.

So Nikki Wiffin was explaining her phenomenal part in a piece of science that is just going to benefit so many families. It was a really important research into identifying the genes behind some forms of disability that then enable families to be slightly more able to predict what it is that their kids will need. And Jane says, I listened today whilst doing my laundry in the sink in a hotel in Ronda in Spain. How uplifting it was to hear Nicky. I thought we were going to Wales then. I thought so too. But no. But then it was Spain. But I just went with it. If you hadn't drawn attention to it, it wouldn't have been a drawn attention to. How uplifting it was to hear

Nikki Wiffin explains so clearly, using my 1976 A-level biology knowledge about her. her work with the gene RNU4, and to hear James's patent excitement about the discovery and what it means to his family. And now that's James Coney, who works in this building as the investigations editor, but also his son Charlie has a disability, and James really clearly explained what this is going to mean to families like his. Thank you for recognising the power of science in this politically shattered world. I hope that Nikki and colleagues continue to get the support they need and the US wakes up to the damage they are allowing their government to do to the world of science well Jane we are always happy to help and actually I think it's a it's just such a good point

the amount of scientific development and advances that are just not getting the attention they deserve like this one which is life-changing to people because of all of the time and effort that is spent now just wrangling an out-of-control man in America is just wrong. So we're very happy to, wherever we can, shine a bit of a light. Well, let's just bring in Catherine, because she sent a really heartfelt email on the same subject. She says, I want to thank you for that fantastic interview

on Friday's off-air extra. Our son, who's 23 now, has profound disabilities, which became evident a couple of weeks after birth. We had no diagnosis for 21 years and had a similar experience, I think, to James. It was a very lonely place. and I too was envious of Down's parents, although of course I've never said that out loud before. We missed out on that genome project.

Then in April of 2024, a new consultant who we'd gone to see about our son's epilepsy recommended another round of genetic testing. I just thought, what's the point? It won't show anything. It never does. But we did it. Five months later, we got an answer. A rare mutation of a gene PPP1A3 had been identifiable.

by Texas Children's Hospital. There were only 20 affected individuals worldwide and we were number 21. Wow, that's extraordinary. We convinced ourselves that having a diagnosis didn't matter. We were just past it. But our reaction, tears, grief of what our son might have been, relief that our other children are not carriers.

It really was a spontaneous mutation very soon after conception, so only our son has it in the family. It all showed that deep down, it really did matter despite having no practical difference to his or our lives. Until your article and James mentioning Facebook, it had never crossed my mind to go there in 100 years. I did, though, I searched and I found a community. I assume we are one of the 38 cases worldwide.

Well, Catherine, I'm so delighted, first of all, that Catherine heard that. How fantastic that she did. And it's made a difference to her son and to the rest of their family. So I just think, well, we're really chuffed that that's had an impact. Thank you for telling us about it. And I hope you do get some help or just some community from the other families impacted by it.

And I just want to mention briefly, I don't know if you've watched. Have you seen that BBC series Babies? It's from the same man who wrote that amazing thing, Mom, which I think a lot of people absolutely loved with some of my favourite actors, including Peter Mullen, who I just love in everything he does. Babies is about a couple who are trying to conceive and they have I think three miscarriages.

I'm not going to spoil it for anybody. There are six episodes and I don't know. I'm slightly conflicted because I thought it was really, really powerful and anyone who's had a miscarriage knows how grim it can be and I think this is the first time I've ever seen on television the experience properly outlined and the heartbreak and the pain and the absolute misery associated with it. but I do agree with our correspondent Evelyn

who says that she found some of the characters just I mean I get the feeling she says that the writers or writer I think it is actually were trying to convey how difficult people mostly men in this instance find talking about their feelings and I found the series so uncomfortable to watch I can't disagree with you in some ways Evelyn but I would say that there was also some astonishingly moving

parts of that series and by the way if anybody thinks oh I don't want to watch it it sounds triggering there is a happy ending I hope I haven't spoiled it for people there's a happy ending you will sob your heart out at the very end it's absolutely amazing

but he does a very naturalistic shows this bloke and sometimes I think he tips over into just a bit too much scenes go on for a bit too long people are silent for a bit too long I mean it's just sometimes it's a bit affected

does that make sense you have to have seen it really but you do have to have to watch it too. It's trying to be so natural that it almost warps into unnatural. Anyway, people need to see it because it's not at all bad

and it's unlike no other nation on earth would make a show like that. There's no way that Netflix will put that out. Well, on a similar tip on Apple at the moment, there's a comedy drama called Margot's Got Money Troubles which is based on a

book that was hugely successful. I'm afraid it passed me by a little bit. but it's about a very young student and is all set in America who gets pregnant and wants to go ahead and have the baby it's pregnancy through an affair with her professor, her English professor at college in America and it is funny. It's got an amazing cast, Michelle Pfeiffer's in it.

It has depictions of birth that I've never seen a drama manage before. Not Michelle Pfeiffer, surely. Not Michelle Fife, she's playing the mother. Yeah, so then the grandmother to the baby. But they've actually recreated the scene, the moment of the emergence of a baby out of the birth canal that really does make you go, how do they do that? There's also a little bit of you going, why? And they don't spare the horses in showing how difficult it is to breastfeed a newborn who doesn't want to latch on. all of those moments of utter futility that you feel in the middle of the night

when you're completely shattered and you can't get your baby to sleep. It's really incredible, Jane. I mean, it's quite visceral. It is also very funny. It is very well scripted. So it's not just a constant, you know, new parenthood is miserable. It's far from that. But the point that you were making about this drama as well, you know, going for reality,

I think we're just in that zone now, aren't we, where if you are going to write something, like with adolescence, you have to be hyper. You do have to be hyper real, and you have to film things and script things as if it is a documentary. Which is why sometimes we all need a bit of Channel 5 drama in our lives. Well, very much so.

And I think if you're very, very used to watching things held at a bit of a distance from you, which our generation is, aren't we? I mean, I don't know whether or not the Palace has had a subtext that I was just not allowed to see. But in all of our dramas, we never went there, did we? We weren't in that kind of space,

so it is quite weird to see it now. And I'm glad that we are. I mean, I think it is fantastic. Most young people, I mean, by young people, I mean, you know, late teenagers and early 20s, they will never have seen a birth. They will never even have come close to watching something.

not all about you darling but yes no I know what you mean it's weird but but for some you know if you're going to give a lecture about safe sex and contraception and I think some schools have started to do this I think one of the most effective things is to see a live birth understand exactly what it is at the end of that I think there is a film that is shown in schools but it wasn't shown to our generation

no not all we didn't see that no not at all and yes so definitely one of my kids has seen a birth but I think it's a good thing in drama I find it a bit weird. I have to kind of shrink back into the sofa a bit. It cracks me up when I remember that both my children could at times be quite resistant to breast milk. They both eat ramen now.

Work that one out. You know, I'm so resistant to those peculiarly involved bowls of things. Just don't understand it. It's very popular. Right, who's our guest? It's only, over-successful novelist, Sarah Vaughn. Here she is. Sarah, hello.

How are you? Lovely to be here. Now, it's really lovely to have you in. I gather I've interviewed you before, but it was on Zoom during the pandemic and we won't speak of it again. And you've got a lovely link with Fee as well. Just explain that. This is slightly random. Oh, it doesn't matter here.

So after I'd taken voluntary redundancy and was at home with two small children, Nikki Campbell was doing a five live phone in about can you have it all or some sort of question like that. It's just dreadful that that was hosted by a man. I was obviously feeling slightly incensed at this point. point. And I write, I can remember pulling over, I was driving, listening to it as I was driving and I remember pulling over and ringing in and it was obviously quite heartfelt

and I talked about how I'd worked in the lobby and, you know, David Cameron saw my mortgage details at one point so he was that sort of contact, but no, and now I was at home with two small children and I don't think I divulged anymore. I just don't don't sound in NDA about leaving the

Guardian, but and you wrote a waitrose column at the time and you nosed it on this poor woman who sprung into the to a five live phone in and talked about the impossibility and I'd said in it I really hope my daughter who's now 21 and at university and doing chemistry and he's going to fly it's going to have a you know it's going to find it easier and you'd concluded by saying I hope this woman's daughter does manage to do it and it sounds really pathetic but at that time I was trying to freelance and not getting much work and I felt very validated by you um nosing your column on me well I'm thank you I'm

Absolutely delighted at that, but also just really delighted to hear that your daughter heads out into the world. I mean... She's at university at the moment, but she's doing chemistry. Yes. So I hope that she will sail forth without exactly the same constraints on her. But I can't say that I'm as hopeful as I probably was all those years ago. We're trying to be optimistic. Let's be, Sarah.

Let's, yeah. I'm going to take over and start talking about your book. And I was going to do a link, but I can't remember. what I was going to say. I think I was going to say, what we can be positive about is your amazing literary career, Sarah. I knew it was there somewhere.

It's a question of grasping for it and moving along with the old voice. Right, okay. We need to say that you have written a whole series of best-selling books. They've been adapted by Netflix. There's another one in the mix now, I think. And your latest one is based on a true story.

Now, we should say that you have been involved in politics. You were at The Guardian. I mean we've already so many trigger words the Guardian, Waitrose I mean, five lives five lives it's an absolute nightmare

The hate mail is going to shoot It's not going to be great And you were Someone who always wanted to write novels And went into journalism Because you thought you had better do that Before you did books, what was it? Yeah I mean it just never occurred to me

That I could write a novel I read English at Oxford Where you didn't have to read anything after 1832 And everything he wrote was By a dead white man really I did do Virginia Woolf, which was frightfully modern. It was extremely daring. And so I left and I just did not occur to me.

I could write a book. But I knew I'd done student journalism. I knew I wanted to write. I was actually spent three months at the times. Didn't get the graduate trainee scheme. But I'm in good company with Saturn. There's another claxon. Clocks and claxons gone off about that.

I hope Uncle Rupert's listening. But thanks to. late managing director here, I got a job at PA and trained there for a couple of years and then went to The Guardian for 11 years as a political correspondent. I had this idea that I had to do news. I couldn't do features. I had to be a proper journalist and do news. And then life in the form of two small children meant that I couldn't carry on being a political correspondent, really, with them and ours and a husband with a career as well. And so at 40, I did what I'd always wanted to do and stood up and two glasses of Prosecco-fueled announced I was going to because nobody was

you know nobody was publishing my freelance features something called the internet come along and made it all really difficult and so I rather like the protagonist in this book I wrote around my children so to speak when they're at preschool and started writing novels okay so you've written books based about based on motherhood definitely in the past politics anatomy of a scandal reputation remind me what reputation was about. So reputation is the book before this. It's again, unfortunately, it came out the week that Liz Trust marked up the economy. Yes. And it's about a female MP. So nobody really wanted to read it. But it is about, I loved writing it. And it's at the time. So it's my best written book actually before they reviewed this one. And they've written a good review of this

too. And it's about a female Labour MP who is, it's about navigating away in public life. And she's charged with murdering a tabloyal. journalist with whom she's been entangled who's found in her home. That's right. That is a great premise and it's a great book. They're absolutely right. And it's about revenge porn and about, well actually it's about the online safety bill right time. So it's slightly outdated now and he's updating. Well yeah, but you do lots of buzzy topics. It's like in your books. Yeah, you do. And this is, I mean, I think you're on to something really with this new one based on a true story because it is about a quite a commonplace

person in British public life, the much-loved national treasure. Now, in this case, Eleanor Kingman has been made a dame for her work in children's literature. Everybody loves her, but there's always a but, and she's marking her 70th birthday. She's gathered the clans together in her Cornish, beautiful Cornish home, and of course, mercifully, it all goes totally belly up. what did you want to do with this central female character with just we've been talking about people who've got stuff in their locker today in the light of Lord Manelson. Dame Eleanor isn't everything she appears to be is she?

Well I love writing about strong women and I hadn't really realised that this was actually something that is quite appealing to TV people as well. So in anatomy I've got a female barrister who's the main character in Little Disasters, it's a paediatrician, in reputation it's a female MP. And I think with all good literature, I'd say,

but certainly with crime literature and psychological thrillers, you're looking at the disconnect between the appearance and the reality, as we see as well in public life. And that's something I very much observed in the lobby and anatomy and reputation are very much about that as well. So Dame Ellen Kingman is another, I wanted to write about an older woman as well. You know, so often when older women are written,

they're sort of, you know, in cozy crime or they're befuddled by technology or, you know, there's a sort of cut off at around 40. protagonists keep getting a bit older. So Emma Webster, the MP, and Repetations 44, but I'd never written anyone older than that. So Eleanor Kingman is 70 and I think that generation of women are quite remarkable. You know, we're quite disparaging about boomers, aren't we? Because we think, you know, they've gained so much financially in things. But actually, they've had to break through glass ceilings and they've had to be quite ruthless to achieve in their life. And I'm here to say that they're not always the easiest women. No, perhaps not. And I don't think Dame Eleanor

it's all that easy and hasn't been very easy. She has got three daughters. And there are quite a few Shakespearean echoes here, aren't there? Well, it is a feminized King Lear, I think. I was partly inspired by watching Succession. And there's also lots of little allusions to Matt Beth. I did a festival at the weekend, and I realised that I was finishing it as my son was doing his English literature, GCSE,

for which Matt Beth was a set text. So it's funny how, sort of you magpie, but I mean, I did, before I started writing I had the final scene in my mind which alludes to Matt Beth but I mean there were a little sort of Easter eggs all the way through yeah I've got to go to work those each of my books I do manage to slip in a few that English degree just had an interest paper paper does your son listen to you when you want to give him tips about how to write something how to construct a sentence no both my children are stem very much but so G Gs yes he was the last point at which I could snare him and we did have a slight panic about I don't actually know this book mum So let's just have a intense weekend, shall we say, 10 days before the GCSE. Right, okay. But it worked. It did. Well, I'm very glad to hear it.

Now, the contrasting characters of the daughters, the eldest is dutiful. Yes. And who else do we have? And Rachel, the second one is dutiful as well. So I wanted to flip the goner all and Reagan idea. And then they're 40 and 38. And the younger sister is, there's been a bit of a gap. So when she's eight,

Her mother writes this huge bestselling hit. I was sort of inspired by people like Blighton and A.A. Milne who'd kind of exploited a bit like Instagrammers, you know, monetising their kids now, curating their feats, exploiting her daughter really and preserving her as this eight-year-old in these line drawings. So the third one, Delia, her mother has this massive hit. And so they moved to this beautiful Thameside home with tennis courts and, you know, boats and, you know, orchards and things like that. And she has a very different type of childhood to her sisters who are by this stage off at university. And so obviously she's the spoiled subversive influencer who may have an agenda. Well, she certainly does. I mean, she does a lot of influencing from a sort of a yoga pose position.

And a son that had a lot of fun doing that. Yeah. But that note, I mean, you may have had fun doing, but that is real. People do get, they get really invested in that. I'm going to say it, Tosh. Well, exactly. Yeah, that was the night, having done a lot of research for reputation and anatomy of a scandal, which involved me sitting in county courts through really grim murder and rape trials.

This just involved me going on Instagram, looking at these terrible women. Can I say that? I mean, they're not terrible, are they? They are terribly self-absorbed and narcissistic. Can we say that? You just have. But lots of people buy into it. I'm very happy for you to say that, and it's quite refreshing to hear somebody say that.

Because sometimes there is a notion of the sisterhood that we're all in it together. But it is a truth that at the moment there's a certain type of woman who is absolutely encouraged to look down on other women, to bitch about other women, to undermine other women. And it's a very visual thing as well. And we respond to that, don't we? And I'm not saying that it's not the same for men, but obviously I only have the female experience. I mean, it's quite a time to be alive as a woman. Well, I'm as guilty as anybody. I find I'm just sort of wanting to buy into this sort of.

snake oil about, you know, have I got cortisol face? Have I got melopause belly? And you, you know, and I've had to sort of catch myself and think, you're an intelligent woman. The reason you have a belly is because you're not doing enough exercise. It's not because you're, you know, you're not doing these special yogic poses or you're not, you know, but it's very difficult when you see these beautifully curated, even by women my own age. And I don't, I'm not interested sufficiently in Instagram to learn about filters and things. And I wouldn't do it from a feminist perspective as well. But you realize actually women in your own age are applying the, because when you see them in real life, you think, oh, you don't know anything like you do on your page, you know.

I'm being chased around the internet by advertisements targeting my belly fat. You get those belly fat just as a term. I just, I find it so repulsive and insulting. And yes, I've bought several products, but it doesn't make to make any difference at all. But it's very odd, isn't it? We're living two parallel lives, whereas intelligent women, we know we're being targeted. but as I don't know what, we're falling for it. It's a constant, isn't it?

It is an absolute constant. Do you think we're all entitled to some privacy around our own backstory? I've been thinking about this in relation to your character of Eleanor Kingman, whose childhood was not what an adolescence were both deeply troubled and not what she pretended. And is it okay to, not lie, but in later life be economical with the truth about who you are and where you've come? come from? I think it depends a bit who you are. So if you're in prison, then obviously you need to say that. Yeah. But I think if you're Eleanor Kingman, she's not harming it. I mean, I've been asked, and I'm very conscious of litigious people, am I basing her on any real life

person? And I'm not. And clearly, a bit of a spoiler, but you know, her crime hasn't involved children in any way. So, you know, obviously if it's something like that, that's a whole different category, isn't it? I think you're allowed to be a little bit economical argument, but not if you were in public office, so if that's what you're leading up to. I think if you write children's stories and you've had, there are mitigating circumstances, aren't there,

for why she does what she does. Yeah, well, we find out why she did what she did. So I don't want to create spoilers, but I think it's all about context, isn't it? But I also think that if you're in public life, you still have higher standards than you have to uphold than if you're writing children's stories.

Now, you've done politics, you've covered politics, and we're in a situation now with Secere Storm, where, I mean, he is being, the expression hoisted by his own partard because he really did tell us that he was going to behave in a very different way, that he was righteous and upstanding, and yet here we are. What do you think? And I, well, I can't help, you know, I really thought he was a really decent man.

I mean, that's the image, isn't he? He's the director of public prosecutions. I just, I can't work out why they've been so, not so, not. by Mandelson, but why, you know, in normal circumstances, why you would bring somebody back into government in that situation? I was in the lobby as a political correspondent when Peter Mandelson had to resign over the Hinduja brothers. And I actually looked at the first or second. That was the second one. So I was just checking the date. So 1998 he had to resign over the passports, not the passports, the mortgage with Geoffrey Robertson because I think he didn't disclose a 373,000 loan.

That's right. And then 2001, I think it was November. 2001 he had to resign over I think it was fast-tracking some passport for the Inducra brothers and I can remember because it's one of those intros that really stuck with me and I was shocked that it actually was 2001 I looked it up just before I came in but my colleague Patrick Winter wrote this drop intro and he said even Jesus Christ did not earn a second record resurrection and yet it's never mind a third it's happened hasn't it I was reading a biography of Ed Meliband last week and I think he um as you do and I think that um In 2008, he recommended that Gordon Brown didn't bring him back as a business secretary.

And Jonathan Powell's recommended against that. And yet he was brought back. And I just don't understand why that would happen. Why you would trust someone when you were those red, when you or I would think. Well, we've talked about this, haven't we, on the podcast? We've just, in this conversation, talked about how women are encouraged throughout our lives to judge other women. And we do it. And some of us really enjoy it.

Let's just be honest about it. But why don't men judge other men in the same way? Why do they have these blind spots? It's like, it's like Matthew Doyle. Why would he believe that the person that he was still backing and the conclusion of the sex case hadn't happened? You know, the counsellor who was then convicted for having children. Why would he give him the benefit of the doubt?

Why would Bandelson believe Epstein's lawyer who after he was convicted would say, oh well, you know, he's innocent really? I mean, and why would the Prime Minister just have a bit? blank spot about that. I just find it incredible because you, all of us, if somebody was involved with a paedophile in any way after a conviction, we wouldn't want them anywhere near our children, would we? And we certainly wouldn't want to employ them either. I have to say, I'm simply, well, I just don't understand how we've got the situation we find ourselves in. And I know you're deeply interested in politics and the way things operate in this

country. How do you think it will end for him? Oh, well, I don't think it's looking very good today, is it? I mean, I'm slightly bemused that he would. wouldn't have thought that solely Robbins would come out fighting in the way that he has. I mean, it doesn't just reading the report and listening to Kemi Bade and not going for him this afternoon. I mean, it doesn't look very good, does it? But then equally, as I think somebody was saying on your programme just before me, there's no one who's an obvious replacement. No, there isn't.

And there's no real appetite is there for another. No, I think that's probably more significant that most of us just can't face it. I mean, on days like today, do you miss the hurly-burly of, of news. I do. Do you know, the, the setting that I loved working in the most was in the lobby, because I think often lots of political corresponds are quite witty and there's quite a buzz when there's a story breaking.

And I realise I'm not very good at just sitting in an office with my dog at my feet, staring at a scream thinking, oh, this is a bit shit, doesn't it? You know, so I think I do like that, that buzz and that movement. And oh, it's really satisfying writing a new story really quickly compared to, you know, thinking God I've got to write 100,000 words. Well, you do provide enormous entertainment. I've just got to shoehorn in a very brief apology for the four-letter word. Oh, sorry.

You know, it's the second one of those we've had this week, isn't it? Well, it is. And we've apologised for you. We didn't apologise for the other one, didn't we? I'm very sorry. I should have apologised for the other one. Oh, sorry. And I apologise to you, Sarah, for apologising for what you said

when I didn't apologise to the other person who said the same thing. Well, I shouldn't have said it, should I? No, you shouldn't. No, sorry. It's a really, really good book. I really enjoyed it. I didn't quite know how it was going to unfold. No, you had me, absolutely, to the very last page.

That is the brilliant novelist, Sarah Vaughn, and based on a true story, honestly, it's a proper page turner, is out now. Can we just put in a small public service announcement in case our cat on the ferry is imminent? This comes in from Hattie in Berlin, regarding your listener seeking advice on keeping a cat calm on the journey to a new home. Two suggestions. Ask the vet for gabapentin, or similar.

It's an anti-anxiety drug. Or barks, barks, rescue remedy, that one. I'm cynical about homeopathy, but for whatever reason this got my cat through the New Year's evening, lots of fireworks, and car journeys across the city with only the occasional whimper. This doesn't work on the radio at all, but Hattie has sent a picture of Juno, a perfect angel apart from when she's in the carrier, which she hates more than anything in the world. I sympathise with your correspondence, can under and wish them both the best of luck with the journey.

Do you want to just describe, do you know, looks like... Well, she looks a bit like Dora, when she's had all the kibble in the pot, and she's just settling down on a human for five minutes, and she lulls you into a false insecurity by looking as cute and as angelic as that, and then she bites you and wanders off. Yeah.

I thought when I look to say she just looked drunk or drunk. It's just absolutely... Oh, that's enough of this day. Look at your night. Jane and Fy at Times, stop radio if you need us. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio. online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.