Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Ms. This App Is Crap (with Deborah Meaden)

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

Jane is bursting for a wee and Fi isn't helping matters. Before Jane dashes off, they discuss power cuts, greyhound suffragettes and asserting their fame.Plus, businesswoman Deborah Meaden joins Jane and Fi to discuss appearing on Taskmaster. Taskmaster’s New Year Treat airs at 9pm, Tuesday 2nd January on Channel 4.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. I really need a wee, so this is going to have to be very brief.

Oh, my word. Test the bladder, darling. It's always better broadcasting when you do it. Oh, gosh, I've done that thing, so... We've got our Christmas party coming up, haven't we? Our team Christmas party. It's not a party, really, is it? It's a gathering. So we've got our Christmas party coming up, haven't we? Our team Christmas party. It's not a party, really, is it? It's a gathering. And the only place that we could get into,

we have to sit outside under some patio heaters. But they've just sent me one of those things, you know, asking you to confirm. Oh, yeah. It's next Thursday, isn't it? It's next Thursday. Do come along if you're free. I had to book it through one of those apps,

you know, those reservation apps. It's so complicated. It is so complicated. And I got so annoyed with it when it was asking me all my details and stuff like that, that where it said name, I wrote, this app is crap. So now when I turn up at restaurants, they say, what name's it under?

And I have to say, this app is crap. You've got form here, haven't you? Yeah. This is like you calling yourself Rear Admiral. Yeah, Rear Admiral. Rear Admiral Glover. So our table for our team Christmas is booked in the name of this app is crap. Life is complicated.

It is unnecessarily complicated. You've got to take it out where you can. That's why I put that in. Because it's just, I need to tell you that this is really annoying so i wanted to cancel a hotel booking the other day but because and i so i rang the hotel and just said oh i'm very sorry i won't be coming and they said well did you book through us i said oh uh well i don't know but you've got the you've got the book yeah we've got the booking you can't cancel it with us i said but you're the hotel i won't be staying in why can't i you didn't book with us you've got to booking. Yeah, we've got the booking. You can't cancel it with us. I said, but you're the hotel I won't be staying in.

Why can't I? You didn't book with us. You've got to go back to where you booked it. And then you can't remember. Quite often you cannot remember. And there's no confirmation email anywhere in my inbox. I can't. You're right.

I can't remember who I booked it with. They didn't seem to know either. But we've reached a situation where you cannot ring the place where you won't be staying to tell them you won't be coming. Yeah. I'm with you, sister yeah it's just i'm with you sister it's just silly it's really silly and then what will happen afterwards in about 24 hours time you'll get an email asking you to review what's just happened so somebody i got an i don't want to call them a body actually a thing an algorithm uh sent me an email that i opened this

morning asking me to review a payment that I'd made for something which is on direct debit. What do you expect me to say? What a wonderful experience you've had. So there's some kind of a server humming away, using up all of the electricity, as much as Poland, powering these nonsensical transactions, Jane. But on the other hand...

Welcome to the podcast. You used the word power there, and of course there may not be any power. Oh, this was our big story today. You're so happy, aren't you? I am delirious. Because the front page of the London Times today, and it is in some other newspapers too, I appreciate we have listeners all over the globe, was a story about

the Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, a man called Oliver Dowden, who has been given the task of urging Britons, as we never call ourselves, to make sure that we have candles, torches, batteries, and radio,

operated radios, just in case power is cut at any time for a string of perhaps unfortunate reasons. So I was just glowing in bed this morning when I saw that because... You've been prepped forever. Well, I bought more batteries today and I've ordered a head torch. So I don't want bad things to happen, but if they do, do think fondly of me won't you

strapping my head torch around my bonce and heading out to confront whatever ails us there was a very funny exchange on our group team whatsapp because I'd read that story too and I'd posted up a suggestion for a guest that we could get, who actually, we basically did get a similar guest, someone who runs a prepping shop. A member of our team, who will remain nameless, just said, I don't understand this. What's the story? Is the world going to end?

You just think, oh, gosh, should I tell you? Are you in charge of the news? I'm not offering her a place in my cellar. Let's put it that way. I don't know whether, I'm not offering her a place in my cellar. Let's put it that way. I don't know whether... I'm assuming that listeners in other parts of the world, definitely in North America, they will have their own prepping shops, won't they?

Many more than we do, yeah. Yeah, because preppers is a big thing in the States. So it's much more a thing to live off grid, though, isn't it? Obviously in those wide, open landscapes. It's just a bigger country, isn't it? It's very hard to live off the grid in the UK because we're just weaning. Almost impossible.

I don't think you're ever more than about 100 yards away from a pylon. Or a Costa. Yeah. It's extremely difficult. You could try to go really, really wild in Britain, but I'm really not sure where you go. So do you think that's what defines our mentality, just because we can't actually get away from people we can't get far enough away from people we just don't

allow ourselves to develop that mentality and we don't have those wide completely on our own those wide open places and spaces so so i've never really understood this about you so do you want to embrace that prepping thing or you're so terrified you don't want to embrace it? Which thing leads you to stock up your cellar with toilet roll, mashed potato, whatever it is that's down there, cardboard cutout of Julian Warwicker? She has one.

What is it? I actually, I think it's a genuine desire not to be caught out should the worst happen. OK, so it's not a slight kind of, I'm going to enjoy it when it does. No, because I didn't. Because the pandemic was as close as any of us hopefully will ever get to that. And I didn't enjoy it at all. I found it quite frightening. And I think those mornings where I did roam East West Kensington looking for toilet roll were just a bit weird and I'm not really proud of the way I conducted myself at that time. But anyway, everyone seriously should have a functioning torch, shouldn't they? And it's no good kids

relying on the torch on your phone. It really isn't. No, don't shout at me. I'm all stacked up. I've got a little Calagas stove as well. Oh, you see, you're way, way ahead of me. Could you use that in your cellar? I don't have a cellar. Stuff then. Thoughts and prayers. Mainly, I think both you and I have probably benefited

from having had kids who've grown up to go to festivals because you basically just get the big rucksack down, don't you? Yeah, you get the rucksack. And there'll still be a couple of protein bars lurking around at the bottom. There'll definitely be a lighter. One of my offspring went to Reading. That's always your entree, isn't it? Do you know what?

That's such a parent's way of saying that word. Reading. Not just Reading. Reading. Which you do traditionally. It's the Reading Festival and you go after your GCSEs if you're anywhere near the south of England. And she spent almost the entire time in the Christian tent

because they had sofas and hot chocolate. Oh, you've been there as well, Eve. Yeah, there you go. It's a place of sanctuary. Brie biscuits. Well, you see, that's God's work. To have somewhere to plug your hair straighteners in. That's probably why she lingered.

It's what Jesus would have wanted. Right, this one comes from, I'm just going to say anonymous because you've just given us your initials, so maybe you don't want to be known by both names. I'm going to jump straight in. I've received a birthday present from my husband. It was an item of clothing. I will pause briefly while we acknowledge

the sigh of empathy and sympathy from the majority of your female listeners. Pause over. My reaction on opening the present was woefully over-delighted and amazed. My husband's face lit up with pride and joy that in his words he had done it againceeded in choosing the perfect gift. I am short, slightly tubby, over 55 years old, and the coat is boxy and camel coloured. I look like an Amazon package. If I go out in this coat, I'm afraid I will be bundled into the back of a van and delivered to a house in Slough

and left at the back of the bins. He also bought a size large. I recently lost one and a half stone. I can't stop wondering why he bought a large. It's the largeness that's upset and disappointed me the most. I want to burn it. What's your advice? Should I just get over myself and be grateful that I have a man who even thinks to buy me something for my birthday of his own choosing. No, that's a good point. Wear the coat with pride and risk being scanned and dropped into a container heading for China any time I walk into a post office or airport security. Or should I just admit to him that I hate it, my reaction on my birthday was completely false and made up

and that in fact his taste in clothing is bloody awful and he doesn't know me at all. P.S. I've been with him for 27 years, married for four of them. The last four. Well, that's a story in itself. Well, yes. Can you explain more about that, please? Yeah.

So, what's the advice? I love your description, by the way. I think the Amazon parcel. That's absolutely brilliant. I think you've done it there. I think you should become a full-time writer. Yeah. That's one thing you should think about doing.

I think the husband sounds rather nice. I mean, I think he should become a full-time writer. Yeah. That's one thing you should think about doing. I think the husband sounds rather nice. I mean, I think he's trying. Is that...? Do you think the large thing is just...? Well, it's awkward, isn't it? I mean, I've got... Do you think we're too forgiving of men blundering into present dark holes

and we do that kind of, oh, bless them, they just don't know. Why don't they know? I'd know the size of... Would you? Yes, I always knew all of their sizes, Jane. Yeah, all of their sizes. Yes.

I suppose, oh, I don't know. I want to cut him some slack. I really do. What's happened to you? I don't know. I think maybe it's just I'm a bit viral and I'm due a Lemsip. Yes, get rid of him. Become a full-time writer.

I feel better now. Was it the talking to we had today about our attitude to the audience? No, it wasn't that. I'd already forgotten that. No, you've reminded me. Oh, God. I wonder why they put off getting married for so long. Maybe this is it this is why

maybe it was our correspondent who was a bit wary so I think there's so much in this and I really really feel for you and I think you say it's the largeness that's upset and disappointed me the most because perhaps it took quite a lot to lose

the weight and you're very pleased with yourself you know rightly so that you have and so you were maybe hoping that you had a present that reflected that yes so I really he just doesn't care what size you are there is that a strong possibility there is that yeah but also I really feel for you because you've done that thing where you've been so lovely in the moment and been, you know, be nice to him so he doesn't feel bad in seeing your absolute shock and horror. So you've just buried it a bit deep. So that's going to be a little bit harder to come back from. I think you should say something. I tell you what, why don't you just leave this playground of a nice romantic dinner. That's right. Light the candles, the ones you've got in preparation for power cuts.

Put the coat on, just leave nothing underneath. Test them to make sure the candles work. Play the podcast. Play the podcast. There we are. We could solve so many problems. Let's just briefly take a little trip down a cul-de-sac about broad beans. It's from Sue this.

I love the podcast, she says. I'm going to start reading all these things out, by the way, when people say they love the podcast. It's tiresome content for people who can't stand the podcast and just have it on out of desperation. Oh, don't worry, they've gone. But we enjoy it. They're in Frank Cotton's happy place. Love the podcast. I'll do it again.

It says, Sue, for all the broad bean haters out there, I used to find them unpalatable until I tried Raymond Blanc's wife's recipe for broad beans with parmesan, published in The Times in the May of 2021. It's a five minute recipe involving cooking frozen broad beans in a bit of garlic, olive oil, a dash of water. Then you just add spinach, lemon juice and lots and lots of parmesan. Absolutely delicious. Everyone loves them. Does sound good. Yeah, but don't forget, some people are allergic to broad beans.

So check beforehand. OK, thank you very much, sister. Now, would you like to do the fantastic I met him at a petrol station one? No, because of my bladder situation, I want you to do that. OK, I'll read it quite quickly. So you might want to turn it down to 0.8. Oh, big guest today, Deborah Meaden. Coming up. Here we go. Love, Anonymous.

As a young woman in my early 20s, I moved to Liverpool in 1993. But would regularly drive back up to London to visit friends on the weekend. On one such trip, I stopped at a garage to fill up my little Renault Clio with petrol before hitting the M62 and was hit up by a man returning to his car. That means chatted up, doesn't it? To my annoyance, he proceeded to chat me up

despite what I thought were clear signs of indifference. However, unable to get away as I was filling up my car with petrol, I tolerated his chit-chat but must have looked suitably bored, whereupon he challenged me with the words, you do know who I am, don't you? To which I replied, no. Are you sure? He asked, obviously not believing me, to which I replied, yes, but you do look vaguely familiar. He then started to tease me, clearly not believing that I didn't know who he was, which I really didn't.

But then it occurred to me that I'd seen him on the telly in an advert for LucasAid, so I blurted out, Oh, you're the LucasAid man. His face dropped, he looked exasperated and said, Really? Then turned round, got into his car and thankfully left me in peace. I was in a bit of a rush to get up to London for a party and happy to be left alone and thought nothing more of it until I got back home to Liverpool after a fab weekend and mentioned it to my housemate that the guy in the Lucas Aid ad had tried to chat me up at the petrol station.

My housemate, who was and still is an avid Liverpool fan, said, do you mean John Barnes, the Liverpool player? To which I said, no, it was the guy in the Lucas Aid ad. Not being a football-type person or interested in football whatsoever, I'd failed to which I said, no, it was the guy in the Lucas Aid ad. Not being a football type person or interested in football whatsoever, I'd failed to recognise John Barnes, which I thought was hilarious and all my Liverpool friends thought was utterly tragic. Oh, it's a tough one that, I mean, John, star for Watford, star for many years for Liverpool and England, fantastic player, but he obviously didn't take that lack of recognition all that well have you ever used the

phrase do you know who i am no and you know damn well why i haven't because they wouldn't know who i was and it's not worth trotting out um i do know another story about a friend of a friend who went clubbing in liverpool uh and back in the day he used to be in with a reasonable chance depending on which club you went to, of encountering a professional footballer or someone who claimed to be a professional footballer and on this occasion this lady did end up going back to the house of

a person she did not recognise but who turned out to be a player and he kept saying to her, do you know who I am? And she kept saying no I don't. In the end the bloke went upstairs, came back down again, dressed in his strip and then stood in front of her and said, now do you know who I am? And she still didn't really know. And then did he turn round and he had his name on the back of the shirt?

And that helped. But only, of course, if you know the name. I mean, the thing is, with football, there are some people who know everything there is to know about it. And there is a chunk of the population that knows and cares. Absolutely not one jot. But also our correspondent. I mean, she did know that he was the Lucas Aid man. Yeah, fair enough. And I think that actually, you know, if you're doing the chat up,

you take that as a win. I mean, there's some recognition there, isn't there? Yeah, but the thing about Lucozade is I always associate Lucozade with being an invalid and those childhood ailments and the crinkly paper around the bottle. I love the crinkly paper. That's the best thing about it. But now it's kind of

had a very vigorous revamp, hasn't it? It's a sport drink, isn't it? A sport drink. Yeah. Which, for me, it never will be. Just on the prepping front, though, always have a couple of bottles of Leucosade in the house. That's very sensible. Because you never know.

That and a white loaf in the freezer. Can I just confess, I've never said, do you know who I am? Because I feel the same reaction as you do. But? But I did get stuck outside the car park, basement car park. Do you remember it at Broadcasting House?

I do. I was sick in there. So that's a nice anecdote. Were you drunk? Hungover. And I was trying to get in because I was allowed to have a car parking place on a Saturday morning

and I was doing the Saturday live programme. And the lovely person at the other side of the intercom system just wouldn't let me in, wouldn't let me in. I hadn't filled in the right form and all that kind of stuff. So I did end up saying to her, check the radio times. Oh, Fee.

I didn't say it in a nasty way. I just said, please, I'm in the radio times. You've been horribly exposed by that anecdote. Thank you so much for telling it. And there was absolutely, there was no other voice coming out of the intercom, but the barrier came up. Oh, yes.

Well, that's, you see, a victory. A small victory. Do you keep an edition of the Radio Times in the little area, security area, so they can consult? No, I just. Yeah. It wasn't my finest hour. Right, Deborah Meaden. No, but you've had some other good hours.

Just trying to think. Deborah Meaden, entrepreneur, Dragon's Den investor. She's an all-round, she's a bon-erf, isn't she? She's a really good egg, I love her. She'll take on any question. She doesn't really mind. She's lived a life and she's happy to share her own experiences. She's one of five celebrities who will take part in the New Year's edition of Taskmaster on Channel 4.

Now, I asked her, first of all, in a searching interview that covers a whole range of topics. We talk about migration. We talk about COP28. There's quite a lot in there, isn't there? But we do start off with Taskmaster on Channel 4. Fee is trying to open a bottle, which isn't helping with my bladder. Do not do that, please. I asked Deborah Meaden, first of all, if she'd recorded the episode of Taskmaster

and if it was all done and dusted. It is done and dusted. We did the final recording last Monday. All right. Do you emerge with your dignity intact and entirely triumphant? Listen, I don't know who emerges with their dignity from Taskmaster. I think dignity is suspended. So no, I didn't. Okay, good. Well, in that case, it might well be worth watching. So just in case anybody hasn't seen it, this is a show where celebrities, although they're not always celebrities, are asked to take on ridiculous challenges.

Oh, absolutely crazy challenges. Listen, I'm a big fan of Taskmaster and it was really funny because I literally just said to Charlotte, look, my diary is too busy. I really need to stop saying no to, you know, start saying no to things. So don't take anything else on. And then the request came in for Taskmaster. And I was like, oh, yes, please. Yes, please, I want to do it. But I love it because it's a great,

you can't really describe it. Do you watch it, Bea? I watch it. Jane hasn't watched it. She's not really drawn to that. She's so cerebral, Debra. That's the problem with our Jane. Well, you definitely

don't want to be too cerebral if you're watching task well okay without giving too much weight what was the daftest thing that you did this time round oh well let's put it like this i doubt i'm going to ever ever eat another poppadom in my life oh that's a very tantalizing hint as to what lies ahead on taskmaster but you know what deborah i'm also left wondering uh about the other things that you've been asked to do that you've said no to i mean is the list pretty long uh it is pretty long actually but i i have a i have a view in life i i only i only want to do what i want to do you know it's it's i've got to feel if an invitation comes in, I've got to feel like, oh, yes. And Taskmaster was one of those because I am a genuine fan.

It's one of the rare shows that Paul and I will sit and say, right, let's stay in tonight because Taskmaster's on. So and because you kind of build a relationship with the with the contestants um you know we can we we watch it pretty religiously and if not we watch it on catch up so it's you know we it as soon as it came in i was like oh i can't believe it i've been invited onto taskmaster but there are others that i and i don't i'm you know i'm very polite but if they're not me i will say it's just not me. So no point asking me again next year. There's no point me just putting you off and saying I'll do it at some point.

I'm not doing it. So you're not doing The Jungle ever? I'm not doing The Jungle. Okay. Just out of interest, have you seen any of The Jungle series this time round? Do you know, I haven't. I don't really watch it. It actually makes me feel slightly uncomfortable. And yeah, anyway, so no, yeah, I don't really, I don't really watch it.

All right. Well, you referenced your husband, Paul, who is, well, he's a very keen, has he got a home garden or he produces loads of homegrown stuff, doesn't he, in your home? Yeah, we're lucky enough. We bought a really old property and it had the makings of a walled garden or what used to be a walled garden. So we've got about a third of an acre, which is more than we need to eat. So at times of the year, we're totally self-sufficient on salad and vegetables. This time of the year, I get a little bit fed up with root vegetables

because that's all that's coming out of the garden. Right. But no, we're very lucky. And there's something really lovely and satisfying about sitting down to a meal and knowing that everything on your plate was produced in the garden. It's lovely.

Yeah, so parsnip surprise on the menu again, round at your joint tonight. I see. I like a parsnip fry. That's one I can... As long as they're nice and thinly sliced and very, very crispy. It does look as though, if the worst comes to the worst, you and Paul would be OK.

We were just talking to a prepper in Cornwall who says that more and more people are coming into his store, well, it's now a very large store, because they are concerned that something is coming our way. And if you've seen the front page of The Times today, you'll know that the Deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden is urging every household to have a battery operated radio, to have candles and to have torches. Do you have all those things? We do, actually. Yeah, we do. I think I don't know whether it's just from childhood, but I've always had to know where the candles are. You know, I've always it's like if everything goes out, where's the candles? So we certainly have the candles.

Do we have a battery operated radio? Yeah, well, of course we do. Yeah, absolutely. We do. You don't sound very sure about that. And the government is urging you to make sure you have one. I'm going to go and have a look. I actually I was I was imagining one of those old Bush radios. But of course, nowadays, radios don't look like that. And of course, they're battery operated. Right. Let's move on to current affairs. And today, we know that the UK has signed yet another deal with Rwanda. This is the one, apparently, that is going to ensure that some asylum seekers end up in Rwanda. Do you believe it? I don't know whether I believe it or not.

What I don't believe is the amount of money we're spending on such as, you know, on trying to... No, actually, the amount of money we are throwing at something that already looks to me like it's been proved not to work. You know, that setting aside whether I think it's the right thing or the wrong thing to do, it just feels a little bit crazy to me that we're just chucking so much money and not even looking at the root cause of the issues. We need to process people faster. You know, we need more people processing.

We wouldn't have so many people, you know, waiting to either stay or go if we were processing it properly. So I have a bit of a worry around the whole Rwanda piece. Right, OK. It's a strange policy anyway, because Rwanda has to be both bad enough to act as a threat and safe enough for us to be confident that people we send there won't be poorly treated. It's all a bit weird, isn't it? It's all a bit weird. And the fact that we think we can pass a law to call it a safe country, I'm not quite sure that's how the world works.

I'm not quite sure that's how the world works. No. And migration generally, is it something that you are concerned about? And do you have a level of net migration into the UK that you think, yeah, OK, it's 350,000. That's a good number. I think that's the right number. I'm happy with that. So I think we need to be very careful to understand that actually the big number of migration is the migration that we want. We've asked, we've invited into the country and we're not talking about that. We have we have a we have a work for shortfall. So the biggest portion of that migration number is legal and required and requested migration. So I think it's a very dangerous thing to start throwing big numbers around and saying, you know, this is migration. So I think it's a very dangerous thing to start throwing big numbers

around and saying, you know, this is migration. This is a huge out of control issue because a lot of those are actually controlled. And have you run businesses or been involved in businesses that have actually felt that they've, you know, taken a sideways knock because they haven't been able to recruit the high caliber staff or the suitable staff that they want to from a British workforce? So currently, no, so that wouldn't be true. But in the past, there have been times when I've completely relied on when I had the holiday parts, if we didn't have, you know, some of the cleaners on the changeover days when we need a mass influx of people because we've got to change over really quickly. Totally reliant. Actually, it was on EU staff at the time.

But but yeah, I mean, totally reliant. It just wouldn't work. Well, why is it then that so many people in Britain appear to wrestle with that, Deborah? Well, because I don't think it's I don't think it's explained properly. We do talk about this big migration number. What we don't talk about is, you know, asylum seeker. We don't separate out asylum seekers, those who we've actually invited over to the country because we've got a shortfall of the workforce. You know, we don't I don't think we don't we just don't pick it apart enough and explain that these are there are different. There are differences between these different groups of people. So what about the fact that since Brexit, because of the points-based immigration

system we have now, migration to this country has gone up so much, presumably not what many people who voted Brexit were expecting? Listen, if you need workforce, you need workforce. I mean, I can't answer for people who aren't necessarily in business and understand what is actually needed. But it was as clear as day to me. It was one of the big threats of Brexit, as far as I was concerned, that we wouldn't have the right people, the right amount of people in the, you know, we wouldn't have availability of the right people in the right workplaces. You know, the shortage in the NHS, shortage in the care homes. That was a big risk.

Yeah. It does seem that if you ask people, they are happy with almost everybody who comes into the country, but they don't like the idea of migration. If you say to people, do you want more care workers? The answer is yes. Do you want more doctors? An emphatic yes. Are you happy with the migration figures? The answer is usually or often no. None of that makes sense, really, does it, as you've already illustrated? No, but we're not always logical, are we? You know, we get emotional about things. And if things are presented to us in a very emotive way, and the language around immigration has not been terribly helpful from the government, so it's very easy to whip up some kind of,

you know, a negative feeling when the reality is that actually a lot of immigration is helping the country work properly. So, you know, i go back to i think as a responsibility to explain the different parts of immigration you know the bits that are really really needed um you know the the asylum seekers who you know who we need to consider very carefully um i'd certainly if we were if i was in trouble i'd want a country to to help me um you know and the illegal the illegal immigrants that, you know, that are just coming over here because they, you know,

it's a lovely place to live. So I think we just need to be a little bit fairer to explain to people because people are busy. They've got their own worries. They're not going to spend hours trying to work out when they give me an immigration figure, you know, am I happy or am I sad? If I'm told to be annoyed about it, I'm going to be annoyed about it.

Yeah, OK. There does seem to be the belief on the part of the government that there are people around at home, malingerers potentially, who with the right help, with the right encouragement, could end up in the workplace. Do you believe that to be true? Well, I wouldn't use the language, malingerers, for sure. But I do think there are some issues either around education, you know, accessibility. You know, I live in a lovely, you know, lovely part of the country, but actually being able to get to work can be quite difficult. So there can be lots of barriers to people to enter the workforce. And

once you've been out of the workforce for a long time, then you can lack the confidence and the skills to get yourself back into the workforce. I really don't think language like Malinga is helpful. I really don't. To be fair, that was my language. Oh, that's good. Well, don't do that. No, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've been told off and I will never, ever do that again. But the government believes this to be popular be popular to use language of that sort, if not actually that word, appears to be quite appealing to some voters. Yeah, it's lazy. It's very, very lazy. It gets a response. It worries people. It puts fear into

people. And fear is actually a fearful population is much, much easier to influence. So I think it's very lazy and I think it's very unhelpful. Yeah. It's a plain fact, I guess, that many of us don't work in social care because quite honestly, it's not terribly well paid and it's very difficult and sometimes very intimate work. How would you go about making it a profession that people actually actively wanted to enter? Well, I think there is a perception. I think you described the perception very well. But actually, if you look on the flip side of that, you're caring for people, you're making a real difference to people's lives. And yes, there are some

unpleasant, you know, things that will happen and sad things, there'll be joyous things that will happen. But I, you know, I think describing it in a way that it actually genuinely is, which is an incredibly rewarding, incredibly important, incredibly rewarding work, of course, paying well for it. But actually, I was listening to somebody in the care sector, I can't name them, because I can't remember the names, in an interview, and they and they were they were quite, quite, and they weren't they weren't they were working in it, they weren't sort of owners of a care home. And they were saying it isn't about the money, because if you just pay lots and lots of money, then then you'll just get people who

want to do it because they want more money. And you actually, it's a profession that it's for carers, you know, it's for caring people who want to make a difference. So I think that's the point. I think you just need to find a way of describing, yes, of course, it can be difficult. All work can be difficult. But, you know, how rewarding and what can be more important than looking after people in their need? VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening.

Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Deborah Meaden is our guest this afternoon. In a polytheistic world, Deborah would be goddess of business in brackets green. Deborah, have you ever been invited to a COP? Have you ever been to a COP conference?

I have indeed. So I went to Glasgow and I was actually on a panel discussing, obviously, the future of, well, not obviously, but the future of energy and the green future and the opportunities that lie in the green future. So, yes, I absolutely have. Is there a very different atmosphere at a COP conference to what we might imagine from the reporting of it, which understandably can be very critical? And obviously Greta Thunberg is the main person who has criticised them recently,

saying it's just blah, blah, blah, nothing else is really happening. But is it very different on the ground? You can really feel something that is moving in the right direction. Oh, that's a really good question else is really happening. But is it very different on the ground? You can really feel something that is moving in the right direction? Oh, that's a really good question. Because actually, I think, A, I hadn't realised how many people went to COP, you know, and that's from school children, you know, right through to the senior politicians. And I would say when I came away,

And I would say when I came away, my lasting view was of an energy and a hopefulness. And I'm sorry, things do change. You know, if there had been no COP, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So things do change. But of course, things get focused on in terms of the sort of we focus on the big headlines with the big politicians. And I guess that's important. Well, it is very important because that's actually where the change is going to happen. So, you know, you kind of get these two things. You get these, oh, this is brilliant.

This really matters. This is really into particularly the younger generation. You know, this is this. Things are changing. And then every now and you get this. Oh, not changing fast enough, are they? But do you have that sense of frustration and you're kind of clenching your fists, we can see you because we've got a Zoom link at the

moment, when you're saying that. And so I wonder whether you feel that about what is perceived to be quite a row back from the Conservative government on green pledges, although they would say it's a pragmatic approach that allows people to get through a cost of living crisis without leaving all of our green credentials at the door. So here's the thing that I talk about a lot. There is a huge opportunity in the green economy, and we don't talk enough about that. I don't understand why we are not really embracing that. We owned that we were doing really, really well as a country, sort of owning that space. And we need to own the space. And what do you mean by that, Deborah? You mean, you mean investing in businesses in the UK,

that are entirely green? Yes, both investing in businesses, and also solving some of the problems. We're very, very good at that. You know, we've got some fantastic scientists, we've got some brilliant entrepreneurs, you know, and we've been very, very good at coming up with the solutions to some of the problems. So and we were ahead of the game, you know, we were known amongst around the world as really, really grasping this, I don't understand why we would roll back from that and why we would link it to a cost of living crisis. Now, it is true that some of the things that we are asking people to do can cost more money in the short term. So, you know, more capital expenditure, but over the long term, and not necessarily that longer term,

you know, it can reduce the cost of living. And I think that the government's role in that is to say, how do we help you set yourselves up in a greener way so that it will reduce your cost of living in the future instead of doing this sort of green versus cost of living thing? It's really unhelpful. And it's also it's not true. Well, one immediate impact of the government's slight change of stance on green issues has been that the sale of electric vehicles, they're plummeting. This is since the PM's decision to delay the ban on the sale of petrol and diesel cars. That's been an immediate reaction. Do you find that depressing? i think it's a shame because

the you know people sometimes get confused about that date you didn't have to buy a new electric car it's just that when you did buy a new car it was going to be an electric one and i'm not and what would happen then is the market there'd be more electric cars the prices the of electric cars would come down you know know, that's what happens. If you sell a small amount of something, it costs a lot of money to make. If you make, you know, millions of them, then the cost comes down. So all that's done, you know, I think is just fed into this narrative of actually, you know, it's cost of living versus green. And that is, you know, listen, we don't have an awful lot of time. I always say, Fee,

we're amazing. Human beings are amazing. You know, this is something we can definitely, definitely sort. You know, this is, we can get to grips with this. We can bring in the changes that don't affect us too badly, just do things differently. The question is, will we do it fast enough? And when you get a government, and I don't care what they say, they are definitely sending out the signal to say to say actually we've got other things that are more important at the moment when you've got a government just building more time into the into the resolution of this massive problem then you know it's not good and it's lost our place in the world yeah that's i think the single biggest shame i have We've had a real standing and we've lost it. Which I think a lot of people agree is a shame. I've seen you described as a floating voter.

I think you've actually owned the expression yourself. We could probably tell from what you said so far that you might not consider voting Conservative next year. But do you have a reason to vote for anyone else? And if so, what is it? Well, I think there's various reasons. I actually won't vote Conservative and partly because I think we need change. You know, something has to change. And again, it's not going well at the moment. So sometimes just I do this in a business sometimes, even if I'm not quite sure what that change should be, just change something, you know, and kind of work it out. So absolutely, we need change.

Yes, I do. I think that there are some, I think we, I feel a little bit like we've been missing the seriousness of politics, you know, and the consistency of politics. I think we need a little bit of a, we need to understand what the landscape is, and we just need to take stock a little bit. So I think I will be choosing who I vote with. Listen, I'm pragmatic. I understand

I'm not going to like everything. There are going to be things that I really don't like, but I will be choosing it on who do I think is the most serious, who has got the most sensible plan going forward and is showing a level of understanding and consistency, sprinkled, and this is the bit that I want to see, and I haven't really seen yet, sprinkled with some vision, because we don't really have a vision at the moment. I feel like we're just living day to day. And every time a problem pops up, we come up with some solution. Well, that I don't think is a solution. It's some sort of crazy idea that really isn't going to work long term. So we've got we're living in these very, very short snapshots. And what I want to see is is a

clearer plan going forward and accepting we're not in a good place. It's going to take a little while to get out of this. And we are it is going to take a little bit of time so so show me the plan show me what you want business to do the bit the business can help in you know and business is very good at getting on board and delivering deborah meaden and i think we've determined from that that she will not be voting conservative at the next election but she was very careful not to exactly tell us yeah she wasn't she's going. She wants a bit of seriousness and consistency. You're allowed to keep your vote private, aren't you? You are. All I'll say is I've never missed a vote yet.

No, I love voting. I love a vote. I really love voting. And I don't want it to go digital because I really like the stubby pencil and I like the wobbly board cubicle. And I like the funny bag curtain. I like it all. I like the lady from the council.

And I like the people outside, the mysterious people outside who ask you if you wouldn't mind giving your card in. Yep. And also I love the line-up of dogs outside polling stations now. I always take Nancy. Because the greyhound suffragettes, they fought for her to be able to come and sit outside the bowling booth. And if any

abandoned tabbies had fought for anything. You'd take your Dora. I would take Dora down to the primary school to vote when the great day dawns. Now, Jay needs to go for a wee. So let's just keep this very very short. We've got two email specials coming up because for the duration of the programme tomorrow and Thursday,

we will be taking the COVID inquiry because Boris Johnson is appearing in front of it or reporting to it. I'm not quite sure what the terminology should be, but it means we won't have big guests. So anything that you've ever wanted to chuck in to the email inbox now is your chance to do it. Jane and Fi at Timestock Radio. Are you going to make it? I'm not sure. Goodbye.

What is it, Eve? And the Book Club episode is coming. And the Book Club episode is going to drop on Friday. My apologies because that's been delayed because I was ill last week, but we're going to record that tomorrow and it'll go out at the end of the week. So if you've been waiting for that, thank you for your patience.

Yes, thank you. Right, shall we all make the sound of running water? No, goodbye! You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts

of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us. And we you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone