Off Air... with Jane and Fi - My best years are ahead of me, with Ken (with Liz Earle)

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Jane and Fi have come from a high-powered morning of meetings! Can you feel the cogs whizzing?! No? They must’ve jammed... Jane and Fi cover breaded dippers, dog menstruation, post-work waistbands, and profanities. This episode does feature one use of extreme language. Proceed with caution. Plus, beauty guru Liz Earle discusses her new book 'How to Age' and her move into biohacking. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Did he just say namaste? Is it at the end already? That would be quite appropriate because, well, it does Liz Earle, who's our guest today, does she talk about yoghary type things? No, we don't go there with yoga because we spend quite a lot of time talking about the benefits of treating your mitochondria, right? And your mitochondria, it's news to me. I've only just got across my gut biome.

I've got to take on board my mitochondria as well. Liz Earle is a biohacker, this new term that we're all getting our heads around for people who believe that they can, in a sense, look after themselves to the extent that they can cheat what we see as the normal time frame of mortality. So Liz believes that she can live way beyond 100 years old just by changing her lifestyle now. She's in her 60s now. So she's coming up. Her book is called How to Age and she'll be along in a couple of moments' time. We're recording the podcast a little bit late.

I've got my eye on some breaded products in the canteen. I walk past them this morning. They were out early. They're part of what's always the vegetarian or the vegan stand. And I did think whatever's inside them, I'm going to have them. I don't care what's in them. Croquettes. And you found out, didn't you?

It's a mozzarella. So it's a breaded mozzarella. Yeah. I'm surprised you like that kind of thing. I wouldn't go for it. Would you not? No. Sometimes by Thursday,

I'm just craving a deep fat-fried breaded product. Are you in any way enhancing your chances of living to be well over 120? No. No. So Liz Earle and I didn't have a meeting of minds on the age. No, we don't have a ding-dong or anything like that. But I just don't want to live that long, Jane. I don't want to see my children

age to the extent that they might possibly age to, I definitely don't want to, who wants to outlive their children? I don't want to be putting so much effort into my life now in the belief that I can extend it into the future that I wouldn't be enjoying it now. And so, I mean, lots of people do. They love all this stuff.

And they get up in the morning and the first thing they're doing is, you know, whatever it is, taking the vitamins and the supplements and putting on the helmets with the special brainwaves and whatever it is. And I mean, if that's what's keeping you going, great. But I don't want to. I just worry, if I want to live to be 130, I just worry about there'll be a wet Wednesday when I'm 118.

I'm just really bored. None of my mates are around. All died. You know, my kids have got arthritis. Oh, yes. No, you're absolutely right. I still won't have paid off my mortgage. The house will still be.

on the market. Well, at this rate, Jane, it will. But what about you? Do you think that you can change the way that you're expecting to, how long you're expecting to live and how, and the way that you're going to live in old age? Well, I think it's, it's whether you want quantity or quality. And I'm with you. I think we need to talk just sensibly, realistically, about what extreme age looks like. Those of us who have been around, I'm not going to call my dad, is now, 92 and a half. It's not extreme old age these days But it comes at a price living that long I mean it's not always easy

So let's just acknowledge that I have to say that I don't want to talk too much about her Because she is a very very elderly lady But there is a resident or a former resident She has very recently moved into a nursing home Of the sheltered housing where my dad now lives Who was 110

She is 110 And up until really very very recently she had an excellent quality of life. She was utterly mobile, out and about doing her thing. A phenomenal woman, I should say. That is very rare. That is so, so rare. Even though it's not as uncommon as it used to be,

it's still really rare. So I think the notion that you can have a quality of life, let's be honest, over 88, 89, I mean, it's not impossible. Realistically, let's just, it's unlikely, isn't it? Well, Liz Earl would argue that it's not. Okay, well, I'll listen. Yeah, it is about quality of life.

And she does make the point several times that she is not aiming to simply live and live and live. She wants to live with quite a high benchmark of lifestyle, health, brain function, all of those things. So she really acknowledges that. And also acknowledges the fact that for many, many people, women in particular, you know, we tend to have very poor quality of life at the end of life. So no, we do go there with that. I just think we're not a society that is able to guarantee really decent quality of life and care for our ageing population now. So I just think what is the point? And to your example of possibly

living long enough to see your children have arthritis, that, I mean that is a reality. There are people in their 80s, late 70s and 80s, caring for parents who are over 100. And that is properly tough and it's not something that we really talk about. No, and also there must be some very elderly people caring for their children who are in their 60s and 70s who have become very unwell. Yeah. And that's not sustainable either. So I love all of these conversations and, you know, I've been a huge fan of Liz Earle's hot polish cloth cleansing regime. for a very long time. Have you?

She's contributed a lot to my just exemplary youthful, dewy skin. I knew you were using something. I just didn't know what. Can I say a huge thank you to you? You can. Yep, you gave me a tub of

extraordinary moisturising cream. I know. This is really good. Well, this is a thing that has, I think he's been recommended in the, is it the beauty, beauty, economy beauty products of the year or something in the Times last week or the Sunday times. I can't remember which.

It's this French brand. It is French, isn't it? Mixer, M-I-X-A. Yep. Yeah. And they do... I mean, they are, they're not expensive, but they are super-duper body creams and moisturisers. They seem to suit dry skin, whether it's on the legs, elbows, arms, face, takes care of just about everything.

And the most gorgeous smell. A really inviting smell. Can you put a name to that Pong? Because we can trail tomorrow's offer, extra. What a great idea. Well, both Rosie, and did you say the same thing? Did you smell the top? Both said that it smells, to me, it smells of humidity.

And I know that probably sounds a bit weird. There's something about the smell that takes me right back to my childhood in Hong Kong. And Rosie said that it takes her to Southeast Asia. So I don't know what it is that's in there, but it smells. of, it definitely smells of the kind of either the products that we would have been using around the house and in the bathroom

in 1974 in Hong Kong. We just had VIM, that's all we had. Or there's something, because there is something that humidity does to sense. It definitely changes them. But anyway, thank you, because it's really, really lovely.

Don't worry, it was on special offer. So to my... Our off-air extra pod is with Susie Nightingale, the expert on scents, smells, all kinds of disinfectant fabric conditioners. She knows so much about this wonderful. It kind of is a niche, but it's not a niche for most women because we're all, and I say that, it's a generalisation. I know men listen. I know some of you like smells. But sometimes smells are a world of wonder for women.

They really are. And I think, Eve, didn't you say that you very much enjoyed just listening to? Susie talk, it was like ASMR for the podcasting brain. And it's a lovely place to go for 20 minutes. Just talk about whiffs. Yeah, so that's tomorrow. It'll come your way wherever you get your podcasts. It won't come in the post or in your little,

local little, it'll come in your feed. Yeah. I got about 275 leaflets yesterday through my letterbox ahead of the local elections. How are you doing? Yes, I've got quite a few leaflets. some I've used for I've put rude words

over some chap's head just gives you a little bit of satisfaction before you put him right in the recycling sack I wish that we weren't governed by the pending period of elections because one of the leaflets I received was from a young guy who's standing for the first time ever

as an independent candidate in our local council elections and his leaflet is just so beautifully it is enthusiastic positive and he says openly I had no idea that there were elections coming up or I'd had no idea that there was a thing

called local politics but when I found out I thought I'm going to enter it and actually there's something so charming about the guileing it is it absolutely is one of his unique selling points is that he's done over 100 song circles and meditations he also says he's advised the Prime Minister's office I mean it is an intriguing proposition I can't say anything more and I definitely can't mention his name

No, no, because that would be hugely complicated. Actually, we should say that some really, there was a nasty, really thoroughly nasty event in Golders Green yesterday in London, North London, where so many of our Jewish community live. And if you are Jewish or you have relatives or friends who are Jewish, I just, I really feel for you at the moment. It's absolutely shit.

And I do hope things calm down. And that people, I mean, this whole business, let's put more police on the streets. I don't want Jewish people anymore. than I want Muslims or Christians to have to have police everywhere around their neighbourhoods. That's just not tolerable. It's horrible, isn't it really? Well, it is. And then you start thinking about, you know, is that going to make enough of a difference? I think the budget for this extra policing that has been announced is 25 million.

I mean, it sounds like a huge sum, but it doesn't go a very long way. And you just think, well, there will always be somebody with evil, anti-Semitic intent who could slip through that 25 million. million pound net and you know what we just need to work so much harder at is explaining anti-semitism explaining how horrible and vile it is and the journey towards it is because that's the huge problem now isn't it there is a long pathway that people might not realize that they're walking down at the beginning towards horrendous anti-Semitic violence at the end of it. So, yeah, it's, as many people said last night, it's beyond a wake-up call. You know, we've got to stop saying, how could this be happening? It's just like this really is happening

in the UK. And it's been happening for a long time. And it needs to be in the centre of our frontal lobes, doesn't it? I mean, it's no good saying, this isn't Britain. It is unfortunately Britain. And that's one of the problems. And look, the Jewish population of the UK have been, they've been thrown out at times. They've been thrown out of the country. It happened. And then they've been welcome back. And there's been relative peace. I'm not Jewish myself, obviously, but there has been relative peace, obviously, since the horrendous events of the Second World War. But this is all horrible, toxic, awful to live around, and I'm sure awful to live amidst, if you are a member of the Jewish community. So let's just hope it all just eventually goes away. But Fies right, we've got a

work out how we got here and we've got to make it stop. Shall we do the book club recommendations? Oh yes, let's. Because we've had two meetings already today, haven't we, Jane? I was just saying, I don't remember meetings on a scale at the BBC. Perhaps they had them, probably about me.

Well, I was just never invited. It is rare for us to enter a meeting room, isn't it? Yeah, it is. But we're getting to like it. Yeah, it is nice. Some biscuits would have been good. Never happens. Right, so,

We sifted through so many of your recommendations for short story collections, and thank you for all of them. We had a lot of recommendations for the biggies, Curtis Sittenfeld and Kate Atkinson, definitely coming up. And I'd have had either of those, but I understand the need to just be a bit more adventurous. Yeah, definitely. And that's the point of the book club, really, isn't it? So, we have both got an email in front of us detailing the one that we have chosen. Okay, so my thanks to Elsie, who says I can really recommend short stories by the Benghorians. writer Jumpera Lahiri. She writes in English and Italian. She lives in America and Rome. Her short story collection, interpreter of maladies, won the Pulitzer. I'm not really a short story

fan, but I love her writing. And it was also recommended by Saccico, and I hope I've pronounced your name correctly, so thank you very much indeed for that. We will set sail and hope to be doing that Book Club podcast edition in about six weeks time. It's quite a short short short, short story collection, isn't it? We've looked into how long it is, 200 pages. We've looked into the availability. It should be available in a decent library in the EU and definitely available on the big second-hand book sites

like World of Books, as well as the one run by the man who sent a big version of his punas and despis. So that's interpreter of maladies by Jumper Lahiri and her first name is spelled J-H-U-M-P-A. You should be able to definitely get it from your library if you put an order in nice and early. Like now, like now. Now, I just want to clear something else up related to books.

Has Jane... Tanya, no, well. You may laugh. I was acutely embarrassed. Tanya says, has Jane fallen out with Ken? A friend picked up a book at a book sale. And it is signed and addressed to Jane. Was Ken's number one fan having a clear out?

How dare she? Or has she now got too many of his books that have been signed? Okay, it is a copy of the remarkable Ken Follett's World Without End. It is indeed addressed to Jane from Ken Follett. Now, I'm not guilty, Tanya, but thank you for alerting me to this. I wouldn't ever throw out a signed book. I genuinely wouldn't, actually, because I do think you should keep those. I actually don't have a copy because the pillars of the earth books by Ken,

which are about the building of the cathedral, I have yet. I'm leaving that, and I mean them, I mean this, I'm leaving them for my retirement and my dotage. Your best ears are ahead of you. Oh, no, they are. With Ken, they are. They are. And Daniel, thank you. Not guilty. So it's some other Jane.

It is. He's chucked it out. And how dare she? Yeah. Cave people sex education. This made me laugh out loud. It comes in from Steph. I've just slept out of my car in excitement to email you having caught up with yesterday's podcast on my drive to work in.

Liverpool. Your discussion about not everyone knowing that periods stopped during pregnancy made me recall something that I've wondered about for a long time. Possibly you or the hive mind may know the answer. My question is, when did people realise that sex is what leads to pregnancy? Surely it's a difficult conclusion to reach as people don't get pregnant every time they have sex and signs of pregnancy don't appear immediately after sex. I hope I'm in time for you to read this out before today's podcast. In case you do something. Absolutely.

No, that's not going to happen. Oh, I see. Yeah. I don't think Steph has said this as a warning. Thank you for your company by the podcast, which makes the journey to work a bit easier. Well, emails like yours make our work. It's not easy.

They really do. It's a cracking question. So who would have been the first person to put together the act of sex and pregnancy? I mean, we're never going to know, can't we? We're not going to know, unfortunately, because even the best one in the world, they're not going to be able to contact us.

I've thought along similar lines. I've wondered when people realize that you could generally, I need to be very careful here, generally speaking to get pregnant, you need to have sex when the woman is fertile. Now, when did that occur to people? I speak as the, I think I'm the great, great grandchild of a woman who had 14 children.

You know, did it at no point occur to that lady and her husband? that if they had sex at a different time, they may not have 14 kids. Yes. I mean, it's... Or if she didn't want 14 kids, if they could just have laid off and thought of something a bit more imaginative for a couple of weeks of the month. I'm with you on that.

I mean, it is quite strange. I suppose that you would have watched the natural world, wouldn't you? You would have watched what happened to your animals after they had had a little bit of rumpy-pumpy, and you would have put two and two together. But animals don't have periods. Well, some of them, some of them do. Do they?

Which animals have periods? Well, cats and dogs do, don't they? That's why they're, that's why they're spayed. Yeah. What, they have bleeding periods. I think dogs have, they're in season, female dogs. I know they're in season, but do they actually bleed? I think so.

This is just like one massive, massive learning curve, isn't it? Well, while we're getting Eve onto this, let's bring in Alice. When did you got up this morning, did you think this is going to be your Google history? Yeah, go for it. Dogs do not have periods like humans, but female dogs do experience a heat cycle where they do have a, some bloody discharge. Okay. Bloody discharge!

So they have a type of period, but it's not quite in the same bars. No, they don't. And God almighty, I mean, imagine if they did. Imagine the companies that would be making money out of that. I had a dance teacher who had Shih Tzu, and I remember when she had her, in the context of the period, she would run around in a nappy. I'm excited that you have a dance teacher.

Let's have a dance. I'm really ashamed of my ignorance. I'm surprised if you as a lady dog owner as well. Well, I mean, Nancy was spayed when she came to us and we only ever had boy dogs when I was growing up. But I didn't really, I mean, I've been around lots and lots of people in the park whose dogs are on heat,

but I've never seen a dog wearing a nappy or, you know, as we know, rollerblading. God, I mean this really has been a very steep blanking girl today. It's just a wonderful world. Thank you, Steph, because you've started something that we will return to a lot. Alice's question, and we can answer this very, very simply. Jane and Fee, do you think it's okay to wear nightwear to a hotel breakfast?

I mean, no. No. Alice, no. No, definitely not. I get quite upset sometimes when I see people who've popped down to cost increases, you know, just in their dressing gown and crooks. I don't like to see that. I mean, that crock and dressing gown combination is not good, is it?

It's not. Do you change into something when you get home from work? I thought you'd never ask. Actually, I was out taking the recycling to the wheelie bin this morning. And I do it in my dressing gown. My daughter's always saying, don't go out in your dressing gown. And I just think, oh, it won't matter.

But it does matter if the door slams behind you. Well, no, the door didn't slam, but somebody was coming to my neighbours, you know, coming up the path. just feel such twit when you're out and you've got my slippers on. There's just no way of keeping it clinging to your dignity, is there? No, not at all. But in answer to your question, yes, I do. Do you?

So you take off your work gear and what do you slip into? Of an evening, you'll normally find me in a pair of tracky bottoms and a hoodie. Okay. That's how I relax. Right. What about you? So sometimes, if I was going, so today I'm wearing a dress, because I knew that we were having meetings to convey something to people.

I'm going to the ballet tonight. Are you? Well You want to swap It's very casual these days At the Opera House, honestly Right Although, yeah, I know what you mean

I think last time I think when you went to the Opera House But didn't you complain about people Turning up in their casuals I don't remember that at all I would change from this When I get home this evening But most days

No, I wouldn't at all. And I find it a little bit bizarre as well to have a whole kind of floppy, elasticated waist, leisure wear. Or, you know, maybe people are still returning home and slipping into a house coat. Maybe people are slipping into some lingerie. I don't know.

I'd be interested to tell your stories. I think there's a lot to be said for the housecoat. You know, I think they did a really pretty good job. I mean, they were often very floral, quite close-fitting, weren't they? but they went over whatever you were wearing and allowed you to get on with the housework. Vital.

No, very vital. And I'm with you. And there's still a very big thing on the continent of mainland Europe, aren't they? So quite often, you'll see, especially on market stores in France, there'll be huge stall selling floral housecoats. And in fact, one gentleman who's no longer permanently in my life, Jane,

we were passing. It doesn't narrow it down. Yeah? We were passing through exactly such a market And he did actually say, oh gosh, those are your kind of clothes over there. Oh, dear God. Let's move on to the mother-in-law section of the podcast. And this is from an anonymous contributor.

This is about jigsaws. Your chat about jigsaws brought back a memory of ten Christmases ago when we had a jigsaw on the go to entertain our girls and my outlaws. Whilst I knew my mother-in-law to be competitive, I felt her behaviour had well and truly breached jigsaw etiquette. excitement mounted as the last pieces were placed only to discover that one piece was missing however my triumphant mother-in-law

surrounded by her disappointed granddaughters reached into her pocket and placed the last piece hidden in anticipation of having the delight of finishing it I would like to put it to listeners does this breach jigsaw etiquette I should stay anonymous by the way she still comes every Christmas but unless we're prepared to frisk her a jigsaw is not provided

I think it breaks all kinds of family etiquette. Yeah, it's incredible. That's just, do you know what, that's so premeditated, isn't it? I mean, it takes being competitive. Most people, I've never understood the whole, you do get it occasionally with men and their sons. You know, they won't let their son beat them at badminton. Oh, I think, I think moms are competitive with their daughters. Are they?

I'm not going to let you off the hook there. Okay, well, maybe, I mean, obviously. In other ways. It doesn't apply in our house because there's no big. with any athletic ability whatsoever it never has been. I'm the most athletic member of my household and that's saying something.

But I don't understand why you wouldn't let your kiddies and particularly your grandchildren be the people to finish the jigsaw win the egg and spoon win the general knowledge guys if applicable. That's incredibly selfish. It's very cunning.

And it's very controlling. Let's hear more stories about mother. No, I mean, because it's very sexist. Fathers-in-law can be challenging too. Yeah. Can I say, huge thank you to Jonathan, who sent us a picture. I'm going to ask my colleague to use her

very best radio description talents in order to tell our listeners what Jonathan's picture is of. Thank you, Jonathan, because this is a lovely email about the history of Fleet Street. We're going to hear more in a moment. Well, it is, but the picture... The picture is, I can only describe it as a sea of blue, but different shades of blue, a gorgeous seaside location in Australia, a swimming pool right by the ocean, with rock pools and beautiful changes of blue colour in the ocean, I just think it's exquisite. It is the pool at Bondi Beach and it just looks so beautiful. And do you know what?

I would so love to swim in that pool one day. It's very, very unlikely, Jonathan, but just seeing it this morning filled me with joy. So the gist of it is that Jonathan was working in one of those buildings on Fleet Street, the one adorned with the names of DC Thompson magazine. So the Dundee Courier, the people's friend, the people's journal. and they're well known, aren't they, for the dandy and the beano as well. And they would quite often get American visitors dropping by asking if the building was indeed 186 Fleet Street,

which was the site of Sweeney Todd's barbershop. And Jonathan and his colleagues would say, yes, it is. Would you like to see the basement? And they took them down? They would take them down to the basement and presumably do a little bit of kind of, you know, I've got chills. they're multiplying type stuff

and show them the basement story complete with commentary pointing out where the victims fell and a now bricked up wall was where he hid the bodies even if it was fictional it brought a smile to their faces and brighten up our workdays so it wasn't Jane

but Jonathan and his colleagues had indulged their imagination brought life to a rather dull workday and taken an awful lot of Americans around who would have been completely and utterly thrilled I like that doing their best there as the King has been doing this week for US-UK relations

Yeah a little bit of a fib Goes a long way sometimes No sometimes it's exactly what you need A memory here from Oh I think we can mention Jennifer's name Jane Fee Eve and the Hive Only nurses all over the world

Wherever they are We'll truly know what a sluice is I'll tell you It's where all the noxious fluids Vomit bedpans sputum mugs Dirty nappies etc are sorted out It can also be a place of refuge when you've had a bad shift and you can crash around a bit and shout. In the days when smoking was allowed in hospitals by patients,

it was a place for staff to go and have a quick smoke out of sister's eye, or to go and have a moan or get sympathy from a colleague. A lot of secrets have been disclosed in sluces. Before disposable items, there was a bedpan washer in the sluice, which emitted very hot and humid air. Your hair and cap would wilt, and on my first ever ward, the sister used to grow tomato plants in the sluice. Naively at 18, I thought that was normal.

It's not normal, I don't think, is it? We all wore stockings back then. We had to wear flesh-coloured ones with seams. And when tights eventually came in, they were all American tan, so no-go for us. Even off-duty, they were hopeless, as the crotch always ended up around your knees. We found stockings a lot easier, more economical, and definitely cooler around the nether regions when on the wards. Thank you very much for that, keeping it real about what the sluice did. I hadn't ever thought of it as a place of refuge, but I guess it probably was.

And the wearing, the compulsory wearing of tights is still such a mad thing, isn't it? There are quite a few airlines where the air stewardesses are definitely still been made. They're all tidied up. I could think. Can Stuart? So-called stewardesses, not wear trousers? Maybe they're being given the option. But I always see them in uniform and just think, oh, God.

I mean, it's an uncomfortable enough job anyway. but weird. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want to work in a place where you had to wear tights. No. As a woman.

When I was in, I think we got to the fourth year at school. The lower fifth. We were allowed to wear ties. In fact, I think they were compulsory tights and they were also, you have to have American tan tights. And I looked ridiculous. American tan tight. It's completely ridiculous.

Went back to socks. Yeah, but it's not really your skin tone, is it? American tan. No. Where does that come from? American tan. It's just weird, isn't it? It is weird, yeah. Should we talk about the C-word?

Because we've got quite a few emails about C-word. Now, I've talked to Eve, as our producer, and you've got a firm line on this. So bring your microphone up, please. I said you can use it, but I wouldn't recommend it, and I wouldn't like it. In your capacity as a podcast producer,

or your capacity as Eve? In my capacity as a listener. Yeah. I'm with you. It's not something I particularly want to hear of a sunny day. Do you want to say it? Not particularly, I'm kind of with you. But I think you slightly do you want to say it.

No, I don't want to say, can't know. Susan says, Susan is joining us. I just heard you discussing your dislike of the C word. Personally, I don't mind the C word. This is interesting, actually. I am, however, far more triggered by the two of you using the L word quite so much. If you believe in equality of the sexes,

then surely women is the word to use and not lady. I hear Lady all the time on your show and your podcast and it never ceases to irk me. That said, it is the standard word used for women in contemporary Britain so I've had to get over it. Susan's in quite a nice part of North London. Okay, what do you think about Lady?

Well, out of all of the battles that I'd like to fight, I'm never particularly bothered about that. I'm not either, actually, really. I did notice watching quite a lot of Australian television, not just maths, that there is quite a lot of Australian television, preponderance of female. Females. I don't like that either.

And that, to me, was kind of like, whoa, that just, I don't know why. That just seems, it felt a bit odd, a bit blunt. And it's women saying females, as well as men saying females. When men say females, I don't know. But lady, no, I don't really, I don't really mind. I think, I don't know whether it's just us. I'm not bothered about lady. either any more than I'm bothered if a man holds a door open for me.

I'm not going to say, don't do that. And I don't care if somebody stands up on the tube for me. Obviously, I'm initially hacked off that they think I might need to sit down and then I just think of sod it. I just want to sit down. So I never get vexie about that. It's quite interesting. If you're another person who just can't stand, lady, let us know. Kate says, I'm just writing in to say, I agree with Jane.

I think the C word, it's super misogynistic that the C word is supposed to be the worst swear word of all. but I disagree that reclaiming the word is bad. I sometimes say my outfit is, insert word, which means that it's fabulous, slaying and cool. I feel like the vagina is now associated with slaying. I don't ever say it to anyone as an insult or ever in front of someone I'm not close to. It is my mum's favourite swear word.

She has a bucket hat that my sister bought for her, which is black on the outside, but says the word in little letters on the inside. She has to be careful wearing it on dog walks. She also has a mum. with the word on and socks with the word on too. It's funny to us for some reason. Thank you, Katie.

It's actually Katie, so thank you for that, Katie. Yeah, it's funny. The difference in people's views on it, isn't it? Well, it is. This one comes in from Penny, who says, I'm jumping into the conversation regarding the offensiveness or lack of of the sea word.

In the mid-80s, we read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in English, our teacher. Now, she's either Mrs. Radish or Mrs. Radice encouraged us to consider why, I can't say it the C word I don't want to say it again because it would be gratuitous

I don't want to say at all it's considered the most offensive word in the English language that it is part of our anatomy that we should be outraged at its status and we should reclaim it there must have been about 13 or 14 at the time at quite a stuffy girl's school

and lived in a household where even the word bum was forbidden where the television was BBC only and cartoons were always watched with the sound down for fear of picking up American slang. Hearing a teacher merrily espoused the use of the C word was mind-blowing. I can't say I've really integrated it into everyday parlance and I loathe it being used as the ultimate insight,

but I refuse to recoil from it. I don't think my two daughters and their friends, Gen Z's, are alone and happily using the word as a high praise. It's actually, no, it's not because they've added E on the end of it. So describing somebody as being a bit, auntie. Oh I see. Yeah. As high praise, when dressed up and ready to head out on the town, I've occasionally received this rare compliment. Write something. And don't forget, the word vagina rooted in the Latin cunus, meaning sword sheath. I know, that's unbelievable, isn't it? Yeah, defines our anatomy by its service to men, so one could argue that the C word is less misogynistic, so bring it back. That's an interesting point, too. Yeah, it is, isn't it?

And I didn't realize that that was where that came from. So we're learning a lot of things. Well, Amelia, I was going to say she's joined us. She's rejoined us. She says, I'm just re-entering the world of your pod after an eight-month-ish pause. It was nothing personal. I had my first baby in August.

And after a difficult pregnancy, a traumatic birth, a stay in the NICU, and the general all-consuming world that is early motherhood. I didn't really feel I could engage in anything that constitutes current affairs. Well, look, welcome back. You've had a lot to do and a lot on your mind,

so we don't mind at all, but it's great that you're back amongst us. She says, I've just turned 40. Nothing gives me more pleasure than using that word. I'm a vertically challenged woman, so sometimes I feel I need a word with extra punch to compensate. It is perhaps worryingly my reflex swear, and what comes out first when somebody annoys me or cuts me up on my bike. Having said this, I do now have a newfound appreciation for my own since giving birth.

so I strangely feel a pang of guilt using it as a swear word. Also a really interesting point. Yeah. There's a lot going on here, isn't there? Huge. It's just a four-letter word with a lot of weight. Yes, and I can't think of an equivalent in our kind of swear factory. I mean, there definitely isn't an equivalent for men

because people will quite happily say dick and it's been, you know, it's just not as offensive, is it? I do think Bell End is better. Bell End. I know. How have you? What was your pronunciation? What? Belonde.

You put a slightly different process. Belonde. I like that. Can I just finish Alice's? She had a question for me off the end of your night where at Hotel Breakfast. She wanted to know where I'm buying my packs of same colour knickers to match with my bras.

And I'm only buying those if I've got a white bra on or a black bra on because I agree. Otherwise, you're just getting an array of colours which is very, very unnecessary and confusing. One of our correspondents also wrote in about small shoes and I was going to do a little bit of research in my cupboard on those and bring that to you on Monday.

Yes, we've had an email about small shoes. Am I right in saying a slightly tricky size three? A 36, yeah, which can be a little bit tricky to find. And sometimes it's great for trainers because you're on the cusp of that teenage size and kids' size. So you can buy them cheaper, but it can be a little bit of a nightmare when you're trying to go for a shoe with a heel.

I think we're probably drawing to the end of the podcast. Those mozzarella sticks, they won't eat themselves, Jane. No, I'm looking forward to seeing you tuck in, and I've got my... I'm slightly in a zone where I'm only eating one lunch, and I need to get out of it. You do, do you? I know, I've been in this flatbread tuna thing now for months. I moved away from that Wednesdaydale thing.

Brenda in Crumlin, shout out to you, Brenda. I know you're a regular listener. Please, please, please, can you include a trip? to Belfast sometimes. We must do that. We must. We really must. We hear you, Brenda. And thank you very much for making contact, as you have done in the past. And just very briefly, Louise is in California, getting back into my routine of listening to you both after a busy time due to daughter duties. Managing elderly parents is a challenge when you live 11 hours away by plane and within an eight-hour time difference. But it turns out, she says, pluckily, I can order

incontinence pants and alcohol-free gin and tonic from my phone in California. for next day delivery to a care home in Leifie, Oxfordshire. My mother is very, very impressed. Thank you for that, and also just wish you the very best, Louise, with everything you're tackling right now. Liz Earle has lived quite the life. She built a beauty empire from scratch.

Many of its products were iconic in the 90s and naughties, and because of that, she sold it to Avon in a multi-million-pound deal in 2010. She has five children, divides her time between London, Dorset in Kenya. She now has a podcast and writes about wellness and her latest book is called How to Age. It's a call to arms, very toned arms,

for those who are biohacking curious, biohacking being the practice of using science, technology and lifestyle to extend your time on the planet. Now Liz is 62 but says her biological age is 39 and she believes that careful biohacking means she could live another 50 years. We're about to find out how. I'd like to tell you something first though, which is she looks amazing. And I asked her if she feels a pressure to always be on top-wack beauty form.

I actually genuinely, you know, don't think about how I look now. And I sometimes catch myself and think, oh, skin doesn't look too bad. And I think it's because once your cells start behaving themselves, everything else kind of follows on. And, you know, my research has been about cellular biology. and if you get your cells to behave in a right way, they kind of look after everything, because our cells make skin cells, they make collagen, they do all this stuff.

You know, we don't need necessarily all these external prompts if we know literally what to do on a cellular level. How to Age is a really fascinating and very detailed journey into exactly that. But it still surprises people, doesn't it, and takes us outside of our comfort zone to imagine that we can somehow, cheat our mortality, which is pretty much established as being 100 if you're exceptional,

but more likely to be somewhere in your 80s. How long do you want to live for? And how are you going to manage that ageing process? Do you know, it's less about age span and more about health span. Because women are living longer. When you look at the stats, you know, we can expect to live on average around 82 years or so. I mean, a lot of it's genes. My grandma was over 100. My great grandma was 102. So, you know, there is a longevity gene for sure, but there's a lot we can do to influence. Now, you might think, okay, great, we're living longer. That's really good. But for women especially, we are living longer in poorer health. So our health span is around 70. So that means we've got 12 plus years in poor health, often in pain, incapacitated immobile, maybe we've lost our minds

as well. And that's not right, because there's a lot that we can do to prevent that. So it's kind of getting hold of the dysfunction before the disease sets in. And that's a lot of what my research is all about, really, is trying to establish what we can do that really moves the dial. So talk to me about mitochondrial health. So mitochondria is a word that is going to be. become so commonplace, you know, our mighty mitochondria. And all the longevity researchers and the gerontologists, they're all really focusing on this. So it's a relatively new name in biology. Basically, mitochondria are tiny little organelles that you find in virtually every cell of the body. And they produce energy. They're producing this thing called ATP. And that energy is what runs the body.

It's a bit like our batteries, you know. And in fact, mitochondria have been described as the batteries of the body. And the problem with batteries is that they go flat and they run out and you have to replace them. And it's very similar with our mitochondria. So mitochondria are not only making energy, this ATP, but they're also repairing DNA. They're chucking out bits of old damage fragments of cells and they're renewing themselves and they're replacing. And the key really to aging is incredibly simple on a biological level. If you look after your mitochondria, they're going to look after you and they're going to keep ourselves going and that's everything that's brain cells blood cells it's our bones it's our organs it's our skin you know my mitochondria are making collagen so you know

even on a superficial level they're making us look better so what is the relationship between mitochondria and let's say a disease like cancer or a disease like dementia do you are you saying that one can actually take away the chance of developing the other? You can certainly diminish the risk, yes. And if you look at some of the leading researchers, there's a great guy in America, Professor Martin Picar, and he is the, probably named the expert on mitochondria. There's a big piece in Scientific American recently where he was quoted as saying, mitochondria are the root of pretty much all dysfunction and disease. And that's because they're implicated in every function, from immune cell functioning to creating energy to the

DNA damage that triggers so many of these diseases. So obviously you've got other factors as well. Genetics will play a part. Environmental inputs will play a part. But the great thing about mitochondria is that we can influence them. We can nudge them into behaving better. And the even better news is that it's simple and it's free. We've just become disconnected from it. One of the things our mitochondria respond to pretty much more than anything else is light, daylight. So something as simple as opening a window first thing in the morning will stimulate your mitochondria into behaving better. I mean, that's just wild, isn't it? Well, it is. That's quite kind of sensible stuff, but there's a woo-woo element as well that goes on that I think, you know, makes it sometimes

very challenging to enter the world of ultimate wellness. Because if you're, if you feel that you're being sold something, you're being sold a contraption or a supplement or something very expensive, like an artificial light that recreates natural daylight. My hackles go up, actually, my journalistic hackles grow up and I think I'm just being commercialised here. My vulnerability is being commercialised. So talk to me about the things that you have in your life that you think don't fall into that category. Well, fundamentally, there are three inputs. And I cover three sections in the book, really, light, which is mostly daylight, which is good, artificial light, like the light that we're sitting under in this studio,

LED light in particular has been shown to diminish mitochondria. Then you've got water staying hydrated. It's a really simple thing, but it's an important habit, especially for women. We tend to lose our thirst signals with age. And even just on a biological level, you know, drinking less water, staying less hydrated, makes you more prone to UTIs and, you know,

all the kind of illnesses that go with dehydration headaches, for example. So, you know, there are lots of reasons why we need to stay hydrated other than supporting our mitochondria. And then, yes, you talk about Wu. We can stray into Wu territory with energy, and that can be everything from the Earth's magnetic field, connecting barefoot with the grass, and enjoying that natural energy,

the Earth's natural residence, through to just limiting the amount of artificial frequency we get exposed to, not sitting with your laptop or your phone charging right next to you, because that's producing very high levels of EMF. Is that affecting ourselves? Some studies say it is. So why don't you just take the precautionary approach

and not have it plugged in next to you? So I think the exciting thing about these inputs is that they're pretty much free and easy. You know, daylight is the number one thing. If you do nothing else, open a window in the morning or get outside first thing in the day because that early morning light,

and I'm talking between 60 to 90 minutes of daybreak, you're getting all these light waves that we don't see, before we get in a UV. So you're looking at things like red light, green light, blue light. These are stimulating cortisol to give us energy. They're priming melatonin for later in the day. And they're signaling to our lovely mitochondria to get on and create hormonal rhythms and energy cells

that we need for later on. That is such a free and easy win, isn't it? Oh, totally. And I really understand all of those things. And being in nature, you know, is just a wonderful thing. It's a gift that we can give to ourselves that I think many of us have slightly forgotten about. But do you mind if I challenge you a little bit though?

Sure, go. Because you're absolutely embracing every single mechanism and thing that you can to increase your longevity. And by that I mean, you probably sleep in a bed that costs 14,000 times. I wish. Oh, my gosh. Do you think I sleep in a Faraday cage? Yes, I do.

No, I don't. Come to see me. No, I don't. I mean, I do have one little thing on my bed, which has cost about 30 quid, which I would admit to, and that's a grounding sheet. What does that do? So basically, you plug it into the wall and you switch off the current, so it's just earth. There's no natural electricity going through it.

And it is said to ground you, i.e. reconnect you with the earth's natural magnetic field. Now, I have a sleep tracking app, and I track my sleep with and without that grounding sheet. I sleep better with it. My REM is better. My hours of deep sleep are longer. So therefore, it's an easy win. But, you know, I'm not about loading a massive shopping list or a to-do list onto especially midlife women.

Trust me, you know, mother of five, busy. I literally don't have time to tick off all this stuff. But if I can brush my teeth in front of an open window first thing in the morning and gain benefit to my mitochondria for doing that, then great. I'm a big fan of electrolytes. Yes, you can buy all sorts of snazzy electrolyte powders, but a little pinch of sea salt in your water.

That's going to help hydrate yourselves and really cost less than a penny. So I think it's about boiling it down to the things that we can do. Yes, you can buy red LED masks. I do have one. I do occasionally use it. But let's not forget that that red light is free at dawn. It's free at sunset.

So even if you're not an early bird, get out and see the sunset or open a window when the sun is, setting because even when the sky isn't red and I hate to you know kind of unromanticize a sunset but that red haze is actually pollution pretty much it's not actually the red light coming from the sun we don't see that but it's there even on a grey cloudy day there is red light there is near infrared far infrared and those wavelengths stimulate fibroblasts in the skin to produce collagen which is why we buy red light masks okay the sunset isn't as strong and as powerful as a red light mask and as a but it's certainly going to have an impact and do benefits for our skin, do something beneficial.

Is it true, Liz, that you want to live to be 120? Well, I said that. My last book, about a better second half, I was definitely pitching 120. I've now changed it. It's now 130. And I think, you know, when you look at the biohackers, they're all going for like 180. You know, you talk about the gym guys, the, you know, the macho guys, they're like stem cell transplants and all of that. I think it's perfect. possible. The question is, how well do we want to live? And I think I've re-emphasised it's not about living longer, it's living better. And, you know, there's no point in having all these extra years on our life if we don't have life in our years. Life is for living and getting on with.

I want to have strength, vitality. I want my mind to be there. I want to have purpose and joy. And I think that's the goal that we should be chasing now rather than just a chronological number. And how old are you now? I will be 63 in a couple of weeks. Okay, so you basically want another... I want another half. A life, yeah. I'd like the same again, please.

Yeah, thanks. Now, what happens, Liz, if none of your friends are still around? I'm going to bring them with me. This is a manifesto. This is a mission. And you can't tell me that it's too hard to open a window when you get up. My mantra to everybody and to my kids especially is sky before screens. Before you look at your screen.

But, you know, don't use your phone as an alarm. clock, just buy an old-fashioned alarm clock. Because I defy anybody when you use that little gadget and you look at it in the morning and you've got 19 WhatsApp messages and a news feed and everything that's blinging at you. Before you've even come to, you're sucked in, aren't you, with that? And it's taken you away from some of the basics of life, which is just breathe. Just take a moment, pause, get some daylight, rehydrate. We've been asleep for hours. We're dehydrated, a little bit of seesaw or whatever, in your water. Just take a moment and then put your phone on.

But out of all of your circle of friends, and I'm sure that's wide and varied, according to the current statistics, nearly one in two of them will get cancer in their lifetime. And I wonder whether there is a danger in setting the bar so high in the horizon so positive that actually you end up making people feel bad in themselves about their life being taken, over by disease and also not attuned to what they might need to do pharmaceutically and medically if they do get that disease? Well, I think I would really hope that we are pushing the boundaries back here in terms of health and health span and making this knowledge more widely available.

And certainly if you look at the people who are working at the cutting edge and I was really lucky in my book research to go into labs and to talk to academics and researchers, so much of what they are researching into disease. prevention as well as treatment and cure is looking at mitochondrial dysfunction. Because bottom line, if we can get ourselves to behave better, then our chances of developing these terrible diseases are far reduced. So I think it's about putting it into perspective and saying what can we do that's positive. You know, knife is not roses for everybody.

Trust me, it's not what we see on Instagram and, you know, I live that journey too. But it's actually about empowering people to give them simple knowledge and information that can make a difference that can shift the dial. It's not an inevitability. You know, I'm sitting here in my 60s. I genuinely feel fitter and stronger and happier than any other decade of my life than my 40s, my 50s. I want that for everybody, not just for me and my friends, but for everybody, especially women who are so often gender discriminated in healthcare. I don't disagree with any of that. I'm worried that I'm going to run out of money if I live beyond about 75. Well, you can open a window, can't you? And you can drink more water

and you can take your shoes and socks off and go and stand on some grass. But I don't think I'm going to have enough money. What, to open a window? No, to live to 160, I can't power myself financially into that world. Well, it depends how you live, I guess, and I think we're all having to work longer, aren't we? But we're only going to be able to work longer and develop the pension pot that we need

if we've got full capacity and health and ability to do that. Otherwise, we are truly lost. I mean, that's what I'm all about, is creating that resilience and that health and that vigour to enable us to do that, should we choose to. Do you find it quite difficult to come into an environment like this? Because this is everything. LED lighting. Yes, that we... I am beginning to shake. Have you noticed?

That you, you know, identify as being detrimental to us. I mean, it is difficult to live a life without this kind of stuff. I'm not anti-tech, you know, as I say, just. simply charge your phone but don't do it next to your head while you're sleeping. So, okay, so take the studios, we're surrounded by lights and they're probably all flickering and you can tell that by you could actually do a little video in slow-mo setting on your phone and then play it back and see what the flicker is. And that flicker is subtly dysregulating your brain because it's having to cope with this imperceptible flicker that we can't see with our eyes,

but our nervous system can certainly pick it up. What you could do from tomorrow is you could buy an old-fashioned incandescent light bulb. They're about £1.50. You could pop it in a lamp, a table lamp, of any kind, and you could bring it into work and you could stick it on your desk. Because there's a great guy at UCL, Professor Glenn Jeffrey, and he has shown that the broad spectrum that comes from the old-fashioned incandescent light bulbs helps to mitigate a lot of the short-wave blue light that we get from LEDs. So the short-wave blue light, mitochondria, really don't like. And it's a travesty that that is what is lighting our hospitals and our intensive care units, frankly. And I think that will change over time. And researchers like him are campaigning for that.

But the good news is that whether it's your bedside lamp, whether it's your desk lamp, whether it's your kitchen lights, just having one or two old-fashioned incandescent light bulbs can make all the difference to your mitochondria. Isn't that very bad for the planet, though? Aren't we all meant to be switching out of that old-fashioned lighting? Well, they are. are low energy. I'm not saying replace all your light bulbs, but having one or two, and that's going to give you health benefits. Surely that's a good thing. So I suppose that goes to the absolute nub of the argument, doesn't it, about whether or not the world can afford for all of us to live very, very long lives. Well, I think if you are creating and you are being part of

the solution and not part of the problem, then that is a much broader question. Is it? isn't it about sustainability? And we know that there are food sources that will be sustaining if they're used properly and if they're distributed properly and fairly. You know, we are working in a very unfair environment, aren't we? It's a lot of food is about distribution, for example, and cost and input and switching back to old-fashioned ways of eating.

You know, ultra-processed food is hugely expensive compared to the basic cost of the basic grains and pulses and things that we could be eating or growing sustainably. Do you sometimes kick back and put a massive television screen on, watch a movie and have a beer and a burger? Do you know, I definitely would like to sit in front of a movie or whatever, but I'd probably wear blue blocking glasses if I was in the evening. I'd probably turn off my overhead LEDs.

I live by the 80-20 rule. 80% of the time it's pretty good. 20% is kind of tequila and cake. Is it really? Yeah. A combination, Liz. What a combination. But 80-20.

You know, I was at a biohacking conference the other day and there was this amazing woman and she was like in her 70s and she just was really vital and looked amazing. And everyone there is quite competitive and they ask you what your biological age is. So I said, oh, you know, what's your biological age? Because, you know, you're obviously smashing it. And she said, oh, 21. I said, flipping it. What are you doing?

And she reeled off all the things that she was doing. And I realized, I can't go that far. You know, she's up at 3.30 in the morning. Never drinks a drop of Al. alcohol, probably doesn't have that much fun. So I think it is about balance, isn't it? It's about recognising what the good inputs are and prioritising those and making sure that's the majority. And the rest of the time, for goodness sake, let's just cut ourselves some slack here. What was the oddest thing that you saw at the biohacking conference?

Well, I mean, people are still drinking their own wee, and that's quite an interesting one, isn't it? I haven't quite got my head around that. I think that some of the extremes, You know, I'm not a fan of things like the green detox juices. That doesn't do it for me. And I think there's all sorts of weird and wonderful gadgets that, you know, there are helmets you can wear on your head that tune into your brain waves. And, you know, I think some of these have come out of research,

medical research. Will they become mainstream? I mean, it's a possibility. Who knows? Liz Earle and How to Age is available now and possibly for the next 50s. three years. It's a lot, isn't it? It's a lot. It's a lot.

What would you think would be the best age? Let's just be honest about it to check out. Well, I honestly don't know because my dad did die younger than... Really very young by most. Most. So I've just got a monkey on my shoulder. I mean, I genuinely, in my mind's eye, I don't ever imagine that I'm going to be in my 80s or 90s and it doesn't matter how many people say oh it's completely different now you live to different life medicine is different but my mum's side have incredible longevity

but so I just don't I just don't think I'll be a 90 year old or you know cent centaurian there's no guarantee is that even if your parents do live to be by the way people email occasionally asking if my dad's doing all right and thank you for that and he's not doing badly as all actually since my mum died just before Christmas and dad has had a massive operation shout out to the NHS he's got through it and um you know I'm going to see him this weekend and honestly he's not bad at all but because your parents mean your mum was in her 90s she was 91 yeah because

so they have achieved long life so do you think that that's what you will replicate to and you want and I think you have to bear that you've got to be honest with yourself about the challenge of me doing exactly that, possibly living even longer because, you know, you say things have changed, obviously there's no guarantee, but that means you've got to financially prepare for it. I mean, Liz and pensions, is she sort of sorted there for living up to 130? Well, yes, she is because she was incredibly successful with her business and sold it out to Avon for, you know, in a multi-million pound deal. So we need to worry about her in that respect.

Yeah, but I think most biohackers are incredibly wealthy people just because a lot of the stuff that they're doing is very, very high-end, it's very expensive. And, yeah, they do believe that they can fund themselves. I mean, Brian Johnson, the man who measures his pre-apic state in the middle of the night. Well, I was going to say get a grip, but I don't want him to get a well. Yes, well, yes, indeed.

Maybe that's in the early hours. He is a very wealthy gentleman too, isn't he? I don't whether I want to live a long time just to be surrounded by other people like that That's the thing, isn't it? Let's go, let's go, yes. Okay, thank you so much for listening and contributing to pleasure.

It is for you, but No, we really appreciate, we've just had some great emails recently. Oh, just lovely emails, really, really lovely emails and the fact that you all take on board that you can just bung us something that's completely ridiculous as well as the stuff that's very serious and profound.

We love that. We're here for all of it, as I think young people say. Have a reasonable couple of days. Don't forget, Susie Nightingale, talking about smells and scent as an off-air extra coming your way tomorrow. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app.

Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.