Off Air... with Jane and Fi - My laughable weekly shop

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Jane and Fi ask; are you still drifting in with us? Should a broadcaster come to work with a blocked nose? Can a student live on Dairylea and two loaves?Also, the award winning author Adele Parks talks about her newest book 'One Last Secret'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So we're drifting in, aren't we? We've drifted in. We're drifting. We're still here. You're bobbing along with me. Yeah, you've started to sound more nasal. I know, I've noticed that. I've noticed that. Than you sounded when you came in this morning.

It's a good point, actually. I'm glad you've mentioned it. Should a broadcaster with a bunged-up nose come into work? Yes. Well, yeah and no, because I'm acutely aware that it's quite irritating. It is quite when somebody sounds... Which, I mean, I do.

I have got a cold. But also, it's a very. It is quite... Which, I mean, I do. I have got a cold. There's no... But also, it's a very uninteresting bog standard. It's an old-school cold. You know, we used to get them. Do you remember? Back in the day. I remember back in the day.

Yeah, and now... Just a cold, actually. Oh, it's called just a cold. Just a cold. It's a jack. Just a cold. Yeah. Yeah.

And they were much more common and there's always an element of panic now when you sort of wake up and you think oh oh I'm not feeling quite much I do a test and it's all the fun of having an old school cold is slightly gone. I got off the tube this morning Jane I didn't have my mask on which is rare because I'm still wearing a mask. I know you are. Why not? Why not? You haven't got a cold. I haven't got a cold. So maybe you're onto something well but this uh this guy he turned round because they'd gone the wrong way so he came back around and he literally sneezed straight in my face oh god you know you do that thing where like and it's so stupid because it's a really

unpleasant thing to do to somebody at the best of times let alone post a pandemic darling and instead of immediately getting out my sanitiser, which I've got a little bottle still in my bag, and sanitising myself, I just kind of pretended it hadn't happened, walked away very quickly, but not breathing in at all. Just held your breath. Yes, I tried to hold my breath for about a minute.

But you kind of think, no, that's... I don't think anybody would have minded if I'd, you know, dressed myself down away from his germs. But it was just disgusting. It is disgusting. Can people just not do that, please? Oh, it's revolting. Can I just give you a little couple, just two little life enhancing things that have happened to me?

No. Here's an email from Ruthie. No, please no. No, of course I'm going to. When do I never not? So this morning I was getting my coffee from my local coffee place because I like to patronize a local coffee shop well i mean you do patronize i'm not make it commercial yes so i went out got my my uh flat wide and um it was very crowded nice it is gloomy life at the moment there's just no getting away from it and a toddler um was being put in her

buggy by her dad she'd sort of clutching a croissant and everyone was looking really gloomy and despondent and the toddler just on her way out turned to the entire shop and said well bye everyone and she was about two and a half and she was absolutely gorgeous and everyone started smiling and then potentially even better than that was a wonderful encounter on the tube last night again packed everyone gloomy lots of people standing and a woman got on with a baby in a sling and facing outwards you know the slings where the baby's got a view of the world except this baby was wearing a santa hat and very slowly fell asleep and so gradually went deeper and deeper into his sleep and the Santa hat flopped down

and the little bobble fell onto his nose. And again, everyone was smiling. Sleeping babies. No one gave her a seat, but everyone was smiling. Oh, no, you're kidding. Actually, the fella next to me offered her a seat and she didn't want it. So fair play.

Good. Yeah. Good. You know when babies sleep and they put their arms out just like that? It kind of hands up surrender. You never ever sleep like that again, do you? No, you don't.

But it just looks so comfortable. It's usually legs akimbo, massive night nappy on. Well, it won't be long before I'm back in that. I think that's a pose that's coming to both of our lives quite soon. Right, I've started Ruthie's email now. You're going to have to finish it, aren't you? Yeah, it says, I'm a bit worried by this now. I discovered your podcast for a friend of mine.

Having listened for a few weeks now, I felt compelled to write a letter of thanks specifically to Jane. See, I had no idea who you were before this podcast due to reasons that will soon become clear. She does say, but I adore you also. I've said that in a louder voice, all right? Yeah, keep it in.

I moved to New York over 13 years ago as a young woman originally from a small town in the black country. I had no friends, no direction and really no business being in New York other than I fancied myself a slightly fatter version of Carrie Bradshaw. Well, that's a good thing. Nostalgic for something familiar and British, I started listening daily to Woman's Hour and continued to listen up to the point where Jane left the show.

Over the years, Jane's humour, voice and candour has made me feel less alone, more connected to the UK and just generally picked up a miserable day when I felt lonely and like I'd made a huge mistake by moving across the pond. Jane, you and I have been on quite the journey together, some seriously fun escapades, including cross-country road trips, huge mistake by moving across the pond. Jane, you and I have been on quite the journey together, some seriously fun escapades, including cross-country road trips, the time we worked with Sting. This is brilliant. Hundreds of awful apartments, various boyfriends, girlfriends, old friends and new friends. You've been with me on countless flights, subway journeys and walks

along the East River. You were even with me during a brief stint when I worked as a singer on the Queen Mary II. Oh, can I just say, Ruthie, I don't think I'll have enjoyed that very much, being on the cruise line of the Queen Mary II. Just be careful you won't get invited on the Times Literary Cruise, where Matt Jorley is. It sounds enormous fun. We saw his cabin, didn't we? It looked lovely. Yeah.

Ruthie continues, when he left Womans Hour, I was bereft. OK, Ruthie, it's still there, the programme. Nothing wrong with it. I remember I was standing outside of Mornington Crescent tube station when the news landed and I suddenly felt very panicked. Who would be my guiding light in feminism, celebrity interviews and bizarrely niche fluff pieces? Enter Off Air. Hurrah, my mental health has been saved

and I'm no longer forced to listen to This American Life, which is a great programme. Many thanks, Jane. You've been a constant companion and mean more to me than I can express in a pithy email. But it's a beautiful email. And actually, just all of the things that you've done, Ruthie, I really hope that you feel actually that your move across the pond was worth it because I want to hear more about it. I mean, you've subbed it down but it sounds terrific. It does sound absolutely fantastic Ruthie. You need to

do something with that story of your time in New York because also how fabulous to move from a small town in the black country to New York to have the guts to do that. That's very brave Ruthie. Fantastic. Very brave. Anyway, lovely email and thank you so much

for taking the time to send it and i particularly enjoyed hearing fee having to read it out oh just give me a break give me a break actually real in the mean people come to this podcast for warmth and friendship it's like beef uh ps says ruthie my boyfriend's doctor is named Dr Sangavi but we always insist on calling him Dr Jane Garvey

in your honour I hope he's in on that joke I think he must love it take care Ruthie happy Christmas right don't start being really creepy towards her

just because she said more nice things about you than me than anyone else in living memory awful right do you want to do the next one or do you want to introduce the guest we had a lovely guest today Jane didn't we She said more nice things about you than me. Than anyone else in living memory. Awful. Right, do you want to do the next one or do you want to introduce the guests?

We had a lovely guest today, Jane, didn't we? A good guest today. And I just, sometimes I love, I love books and I love hearing from people who write books that, let's be honest about it, you know, sell by the truckload because they're readable, they're pacey, they're entertaining and they take you on a trip

they take you out of your life and they put you somewhere else and you cannot wait to return to it at night and some people in the book world are somewhat snooty about these sorts of authors and they've no right to be because these are the books that people read

but you can be both can't you? And I think I really liked Adele for talking about that. So she talked about the kind of books that really sell, the kind of books that really win prizes. And you can be a reader of both, but you just shouldn't be dismissive of one. And never.

Or the other. So our big guest today was the best-selling author, Adele Park's MBE. And as she tells us in the interview, she got her MBE from the king at his first investiture. Only a couple of weeks ago. She's written 22 books in 22 years, Adele has, and she frequently gets the top of the charts with the kind of books that people absolutely mop up, particularly, I would imagine, on their holidays. Now, her latest one is called One Last Secret, and it's about an escort whose name is Dora.

I do like keeping my readers on their toes. You know, I know my readers now. As you say, 22 years, a lot of them have come with me forever. Very nice to know that there's new ones joining all the time. But because of social media, et cetera, people give me feedback quite quickly. And I know the twists and turns and the sort of unreliable narrators I might present. It's exciting for people and people read and sometimes they say, Oh, I got all the twists,

or I didn't get any of the twists, or I got some of the twists, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't, you know, there isn't a right or wrong way of reading this or enjoying it. But I do like to keep people entertained on their toes. Yeah. Now, you and I have got a few things in common. I worked in advertising. Sadly, I got the sack. I did English at university.

You did English at university. Correct. Yeah. I always thought I was going to be the great novelist of the 21st century, early 21st century. Hasn't quite panned out that way for me. Yet. Yet. good point. But you have absolutely succeeded in all of those two different professions.

And advertising is really interesting. Was that what you did straight after your English degree? More or less. I had a year out first in Italy and I was a TEFL teacher in southern Italy. And then I came back and started working for TBWA. And then I worked for BBH. So yeah, two very big, exhausting agencies. Did you write copy?

Was that what you did? I didn't. I was account manager, actually. So it's really interesting because people would assume I write copy because of taglines or titles of books, that kind of thing. And I definitely have a flair for it I think but um actually my job was more keeping the show on the road it was talking to media planners talking to the clients being the liaison between the client and the creatives which actually as a

writer is very useful too because people don't think this about writing but there's an awful lot of planning oh yeah you know there's there's planning of the characters, there's planning of the plots. There is a lot of elements that come besides, you know, just writing the book. So it was a really helpful, you know, background. And also agencies have popped up as themes, as backgrounds in my books. So, yeah. And I know you wanted to be a writer I get that completely but did you want to be a best-selling writer is it possible to say right

this afternoon I'm going to start my career as a best-selling writer okay I really honestly I didn't really even know the difference between being a writer and being a bestseller writer you know I just didn't sort of think it through in that way I just knew I wanted to be a writer and being a bestseller writer. You know, I just didn't sort of think it through in that way. I just knew I wanted to be a writer and one that was really successful because I do, I am ambitious. I'm an ambitious type of person. I hope I do it in a very lovely way,

but anything I do, I want to do really well. So I suspect I wasn't ever thinking, I think if somebody said to me, do you want to be a prize winning writer or a best selling writer right at the beginning of my career, I would have said, well, either would be marvellous, because both of them are fabulous forms of success. But I definitely didn't want to be a writer that sort of, oh, you're writing and you've written one book and then you've disappeared. I knew I didn't want to be that. I knew I wanted longevity in a career. And you've certainly nailed it, madam.

Let's talk about the latest book then, One Last Secret, which takes the reader into the world of sex work. You do a lot of research on the ground for all of your books. So I know that you've talked to sex workers ahead of writing the book. Did you want to turn an image on its head? Did you want to prove a different kind of point about what might be a stereotype of sex work i definitely started with um the premise that in lots of thrillers and psychological thrillers there is a female body um and quite often it's

a sex worker and she's already she's already dead or if she alive, she's often nameless and sort of gyrating around a pole. And I just think that's not fair. She must have a story. That woman must have a story. I've always written unsympathetic heroines, I think. You have to go with them and understand them. I kind of find that quite challenging. You give a backstory, people might think they're not going to empathize and then they find that they are. It's part of what I think life should be about. People make quick judgments all the time, very fast judgments. And perhaps if we didn't, life would be better. So when I met these women, I didn't go in with thinking I would um up sort of upend the stereotype I just wanted the truth so if the stereotype turned out to be true I would write about that

if the stereotype turned out to be something completely untrue I wanted to write about that so um when I met them the first thing was there's no stereotype. I met three and they were three very different women. I think the thing they had in common is they all worked really hard because it's not an easy job. And they were all without choices for different reasons, but they were without choices. So sorry, let me say because it is a really interesting line of work to find yourself in. Yeah. And I have interviewed sex workers in the past. And on the whole, I think you're right, that none of them had their life not taken a turn

of one sort or another, would have found themselves in that sort of work. Well, the opening line of One Last Secret, my book, is no little girl grows up dreaming of being a sex worker. And that's absolutely true. I dreamt of growing up and becoming a novelist people do they might want to be you know a police officer or a teacher or whatever nobody grows up thinking oh yeah it'd be fantastic to be a sex worker but some people find that

with their whether that's educational or social backgrounds or time, it could be a time thing or debt or whatever it might be. It is the only viable option for them at some point in their lives. And who are we to judge? 100%. Because we don't know, do we? And that's the point of the book. I mean, in One Last Secret, she's a high-end escort.

So she's earning really good money. So she's looking around at other jobs and thinking things like I don't want to do that job for that money when I could do this job for more money it is still a choice um but she comes up against incredible violence and prejudice that means she actually wants to get out of it and then find she can't which is another thing once you become a sex worker it's very hard to leave it behind and did you also talk to some of the sex workers male clients i didn't actually largely um who knows i might have in my life many many many times that's actually a bad point that's the point isn't it i mean i might have um they retain an

an anonymity and they're also free of the sort of judgment yes and the shame criminal if that's the point isn't it i mean i might have um they retain an an anonymity and they're also free of the sort of judgment yes and the shame criminal if that's what's attached to it and also the i mean they just looking at the law and how the law works so for instance it's not illegal to be a sex worker but it is illegal to for more than one sex worker to work from one premise which might be safe which would be much safer so it's so frustrating um and it's illegal to sort of you know advertise your wares in an above board way so that that puts you on a back foot because you're doing something uh sort of behind the scenes which means you're not protected in quite the same way. It's not the same across the

globe, but pretty much across the globe, there is still levels of prejudice. I didn't interview the men. And the book actually doesn't spend a long time in the bedroom with her. It is all about the psychological and economical effects of the choices she's made. And, you know, and sort of, I thought that was more interesting because we all know what goes on in bedrooms, but we perhaps don't know what takes women into that job. I don't want to do any spoilers about the book.

Suffice to say, it will take you on a trip. I enjoyed it. It's called One Last Secret. Can we talk, if you don't mind, Adele, just about the mechanics of writing? And you mentioned your first line in this book. If you don't mind me just quoting it, no little girl grows up dreaming of becoming an escort.

Full stop. Right, instantly, I want to know more. So is that your first top tip in how to write a bestseller uh yes 100% first line get it right yeah get it right because um the way we select books I think um you look at the cover you look at the title you might if that grabs your interest turn it over and look at and read the blurb at the back you might if we're very lucky and we I mean authors very lucky read the first sentence if that grabs you you'll read the first paragraph and then we're very lucky, and we, I mean authors, very lucky, read the first sentence. If that grabs you, you'll read the first paragraph and then we're off.

So, yeah, I do pride myself on hooks on the first line. But after that, other tips? Do you want some more tips? Yes, please. Okay, big readers. I mean, I know that sounds as though I'm trying to flog my books, which, by the way, I am. But big readers, you know, everybody should be reading if you want to write. It's ridiculous to think you can write without understanding. You wouldn't think I'm going to make a TV show and say, oh, but I never watch TV.

Second to that, do it every day. It's like a muscle, you'll get better, you'll get more confident. You have to take yourself seriously if you're ever expecting anyone else to take you seriously. confident you have to take yourself seriously if you're ever expecting anyone else to take you seriously I always sort of joke but it's true saying I gave up ironing and soap operas to find the time to to write when I still had a full-time job and I was writing and I did and that's fine and how long can you write for every day I think to start with, if you're starting out, if you write 20 minutes every day, you've done well. I write 1000 to 2000 words every day. That's, that's my goal. It's your job, isn't it? It's my job. Okay. But when I had a full time other job, I used to write 20 minutes until I got confident. And then sometimes I would find, oh, look, two hours have gone by. I'm still working. And do you write in a linear way, if that's the right way to describe it?

You're writing just the constant narrative. I do now. I didn't when I started out. When I started out, I would write whatever was coming into my head at that time. Now I know that I'm more likely to use all of the words if they're in the correct order. When I used to bop around and sort of write the end before I got there, by the time I got to the end, it wasn't the right end. I think planning is really important.

I also have a top tip that I share. I interview my characters, which you two would love, because that's what you do. I interview my characters before I start. What do you mean by that? Well, I ask them things that I obviously need to know their names and ages. Let's say it's Dora. Well, Dora, one of the things I ask Dora is,

what's the moment you're most proud of? And she struggled to tell me. And then I said, OK, well, what's the moment you're most ashamed of? And she swore at me and said, we don't know each other well enough for me to tell you that. It's none of your business. And I immediately got her tone. And now, obviously, that makes me sound half crazy.

I'm not at all crazy. But I allowed the creative process, the imagination to take off. And I have her voice coming to me. Other characters might have happily told me every single thing in the backstory because that would have been the kind of person they are. I wanted to know with Dora, are you an only child? Did you have a favourite parent? Were you a favourite?

Who's your best friend? Who knows all your secrets? Does anyone know all your secrets? And sort of built up this portfolio of her and then eventually worked out who she was before I started writing her. And could you ever, have you ever just dumped a book? You've got, I don't know, 25,000 words in and just thought, this just isn't working,

so I'm going to let it go. I've got 80,000 words in and started again. Wow. To give context to listeners, 100,000 is about my book. Right. It's like a finished book. I didn't dump the book. I dumped the tense and the narrator. So I kept the plot, but I realised that I had tricked the reader in a pretty underhand way. There is a perfectly legit way of having, I believe, of having an unreliable narrator. But what I presented is somebody who was out and out, faulty. So I decided that that person couldn't, couldn't narrate the story. And it wouldn't be a good story if that person narrated it. But I still liked the story. And that was my book, Just My Luck. And actually, it became a number one bestseller. So I feel that was a good decision.

I love the way that anecdote casually ended with you dropping that. that was a good decision. I love the way that anecdote casually ended with you dropping that. Yeah, it worked. But my point is, is you've got to be confident about saying what's wrong with something. Because maybe if I'd pushed on, maybe because I was at that point 20 books in,

people would have gone, oh, OK, we'll accept it. You know, maybe they would have. Maybe my editor would have told me it was rubbish and ditched it. But maybe it would have kind of gone through, but not been a hit. So given that you come to know your characters so well, and they're really fully formed in your mind as people who talk to you, do you ever revisit them in your head? I mean, from way back, you know, book number four? Well, actually, I've revisited them in real life. So my very first book had four main women, and it was about one of them and her three friends were the the back

stories and the sort of you know subplots and then seven years on in real time I picked up two of those women and put them as the forefront and then another 10 years on after that I wrote lies lies lies in a totally different genre and still went back to those characters but they'd all aged by then sort of 17 years. So they do stay with me. So that's really interesting, because actually quite often, especially in crime fiction, when you've created a very strong character who you do place in every book, they don't age enough. So it's really...

Yeah, they had aged. They had completely aged, and they'd had children, and they'd changed their viewpoints, and they'd changed how they all felt about each other. Can I just say, Vera can't age age she's just got to stay where she is well perpetually on the verge of retirement. I do not want to I don't want to criticize your Vera but she is a case in point and it's quite strange. No I won't. No point. I know that literacy is a big thing for you and I just want to talk about your your gateway drug into reading I think was

Enid Blyton who was also mine I mean the first book I ever read was Enid Blyton's Ship of Adventure uh and after that I thought this is it now for me honestly this is my hobby for life yeah this is all I'll ever really want and I've stayed true to that actually 100% and it's funny who we read as Enid Blyton because I love Enid Blyton for many reasons but one of them is her range so my my sister read all the sort of Maori towers and all of the kind of boarding schools. I didn't. I read the, I'm the younger sister,

but I read The Magic Wishing Chair and The Faraway Tree. I wanted to go on adventures. But I think there was something for everybody. Yeah. And yeah, so she was my gateway. I don't mind how people read or, you know, or who they read. I think there's far too much snobbery around reading. It's ridiculous.

The only thing that matters about reading is are you doing it or aren't you? And really you ought to be. Not for any other reason than you probably will get something out of it, which is a great reason to do anything. Yeah. And what is this, the six book challenge? Yeah, so that's for what we call, that's with the reading agency. out of it which is a great reason to do anything yeah and what is this the six book challenge yeah so that's for what we call that's with the uh reading agency i'm an ambassador of the reading agency and that's for what we call reluctant readers and many people out there that didn't

get introduced to books very early on or lost the love of reading maybe they were dyslexic and it never got you know diagnosed for whatever reason maybe maybe second language. So I talk to adults that and ask them over a year, would you challenge yourself to read six books, and they keep a little journal, maybe write half a paragraph, paragraph on that book. And then at the end of the year, if they have written six books, they get a certificate, they get entered into competitions for prizes, that sort of thing. And for many of these reluctant readers it can be the first certificate for anything vaguely academic that they've ever had i've met people that said i hung it on my wall at home and it's a really exciting moment and invariably they become quite passionate readers that sounds like

a really good initiative you have been given the mbe for your services to literature. You've been recently, what's the right term? Ennobled. Ennobled, investitured. Whatever. When you go to the palace, what's that day like? Do they give you food as well? It was an extraordinarily lovely day. So it was only two weeks ago.

I was in the late Queen's honours list in the beginning of the year, but I actually only had the investiture two weeks ago um with King Charles and I was uh the first day of his investitures so very exciting moment in history very lovely so we were at Windsor um you get to spend a lot of time in a number of rooms they sort of thread you through these rooms and sort of spend I don't know 20 minutes to half an hour in several rooms all of which have got magnificent pieces of art and as you could imagine you know decor um which i was pointing out to my mom and saying things like we have that on a tea towel

uh which is not quite the same and then king charles comes in we've got him on a tea towel exactly um and then eventually you sort of you go through and the king was extraordinary actually he spent a lot of time with everybody he didn't make them feel rushed he certainly he certainly didn't make me feel rushed he was very humorous and wanted to ask the questions everybody asks about process where do i get my ideas from do i have more ideas am i ever do i ever get writer's block and chatted for quite some time was his interview better than this one adele is that what you're saying break it to us gently or i won't mention your mbe again yeah no yours is excellent adele parks who was our guest today she was really good

fun that she wasn't she was pleasured to have her in the studio i thought she brought a very nice atmosphere with her she brought positivity yeah she let's face it it's not always not always guaranteed yeah it's a really short supply at the moment so let's grasp that sunshine where we can we just acknowledge that it has been it's just it's now properly cold it's usually dark train strikes ambulance strikes, strep A. It's tough. An investigation into some people who may or may not have made an enormous amount of money out of masks and PPE. Sir Jane and Fee, please do not use my name. I'm noting that.

Lady Kay, I'm noting that. I'm pretty sure this won't be read out because it will unfortunately be deemed too controversial. Love an email that starts like that, Jane. But I'd like to offer another perspective on the ongoing heritage question. I do not understand why being asked about your heritage or your family is so offensive. I accept that the manner of questioning wasn't ideal and not well thought out. I personally would have been delighted to share information on my heritage and would have seen it as someone taking a genuine interest but it seems that we seek to twist and misinterpret every situation to find immediate offence. I find this really sad and in my opinion

does nothing to further or support the Black Lives Matters cause. Love the new podcast, Anonymous. Do you have any particular view on that, Jane? I mean, as we've said, I think we've said before, it was the persistence of the questioning in the incident with the lady at Buckingham Palace and Gozi Falani. It was the fact that Lady Susan Hussey, and I think some people do have some sympathy for her. We've had people saying that, well, she's 83. She might be hard of hearing, out of her comfort zone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't really, it doesn't matter. She just, she should have stepped away when she got the first answer, which was I'm from Hackney and just moved on.

I mean, it could all have been avoided. And I think, I think we all know that really. And I'd say just to, you know, whoever you are, I would just say try really hard not to let it affect how you might previously have thought of black lives matters you know and goes he falani is a black british woman and i think she would just absolutely hate to hear that from somebody so even if you maybe don't agree with the way it's all panned out. Maybe hold on to those bigger thoughts about why Black Lives Matter, if you can. Can we just end with this one from Kath? I love this.

After your discussions on vegetarian and vegan food, I wanted to share with you a friend's experience with her elderly mum. My friend's been a vegetarian now for 30 years and she'd regularly have lunch at her mum's flat. She was eating some soup, it did taste a bit strange, and on questioning her mum, she discovered she was, yep, eating chicken soup. Her mum reassured her all was well, on the grounds that she had removed the lumps.

Right. Okay. I think that's mum logic, isn't it? It is. Although I think you did say yesterday, and I didn't pick you up on it, actually, that when you were a vegetarian as a much younger woman, you had all of the vegetables and just the gravy.

Yes, I did. I wasn't the best vegetarian. And also my mum, God love her, I mean, she had enough going on, really, and she did tolerate my vegetarianism. She tolerated it, really, by just refusing to acknowledge it and just would give me the same thing that everybody else had without the meat. I mean, I think if you're living at home, it's a little bit cheeky to inflict your quite sudden food changes on the rest of the household. And indeed, I made no impression on the other members of the household whatsoever

in the time that I was a vegetarian. They've steadfastly eaten their meat all the way through. They absolutely have. Of course, I've got my comeuppance in adult life. I was just about to say, isn't it funny what comes round? It really is. I was the world's worst student vegetarian, so I would go to Sainsbury's in, I think it was King's Heath in Birmingham, every week to do my laughable weekly shop

and I was such a, I was complete dunderbrain. So I'd just buy dairy-ly and two loaves oh and a tomato. Well what's wrong with that? That's actually quite a good student food experience. It was more or less all I ate.

Well the others would get kebab and then I couldn't have the kebab, so we'd just have chips. Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to the next menu when you invite me round to Garvey Towers. I looked a million dollars back in the 1980s. I bet you did. There's a similarity sometimes between too much white bread

and dairy-lea cheese and the exact same colour of people's complexions. Some consistency as well. I had a lovely glow. Right. Thank you for joining us on our little escapade after the programme every day. We've got some bumper editions coming up for you between now and Christmas, but just temporarily. I can't think of why.

So look, I'll leave that as a piece of intrigue. Because our guest on Thursday is Giles Brandreth. Giles Brandreth, who's a royal spurt. Yes, he is. And our guest tomorrow is A.M. Holmes, who's an American novelist who comes from, I would say, completely the opposite side of the writing tracks to Adele Parks.

Yes, the literary canon. That's a better way of putting it. So she writes books that do win women's prizes in particular. And I love them because they're about a very dark underbelly, usually of American society. So we'll go there tomorrow. And then Giles is here with all of his jumpers, his wisdom

and his absorption of the Netflix documentary on Thursday. Bye. I'll blow my nose before the next podcast. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us

on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.