Off Air... with Jane and Fi - My long suffering pac-a-mac

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

Jane and Fi chat about the highs and lows of family holidays, their desire for a hand cream amnesty, and terrible raffle prizes. They're also joined by Sir Nicholas Mostyn - the second longest serving High Court judge and co-hosts of the Movers and Shakers podcast - which is about life with Parkinson’s. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail].  Assistant Producers: Megan McElroyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Okay. Okay. Now, we've got to hurry because you're going to see Barbie. That's correct. Okay. So, I'd like to get a shifty on if that's all right. I haven't worn anything pink. We're going against the grain.

Oh. Yes, but I think now we've passed the kind of peak hype of the launch and it would be all right. Do you think it's quite a cool time to go now? I think so, very much so. I'm waiting until my youngest child gets back from her apparently never-ending tour of Europe and we're going to go, or so she tells me. Do you want me to tell you what the plot's about?

Do you think I'll be converted to feminism after it? I think there's a strong possibility. Well, I'm looking forward to it. I hope it's not propaganda. Well, I don't know. I will keep it in, my thoughts about Barbie, until you've been to see it too. No, because

you've asked me to watch Greg Wallace's Miracle Meet, which I failed to do last night or this morning. Very much your homework between now and tomorrow. But I'm going to make sure that I make room for it in my busy day tomorrow morning before coming to work. So we can talk about that. Our big guest is Nicholas Mostyn, a High Court judge,

and he's actually a really interesting guy, so you'll hear from him in a couple of minutes time. But before Fiona goes to the cinema, we definitely want more blended holiday fun. We do. Dear Jane and Fee says, this correspondent who will remain anonymous, as will everybody on this subject.

I write this from my bedroom of a Spanish villa where I'm nine days and counting into a two week holiday with the following cast of characters my young son my partner my partner's two teenage children my partner's mother my partner's brother and niece my mother my brother my brother's wife and his young daughter oh my god so far i'm waiting for the relaxing holiday feeling to kick in and i'm wondering if i will ever get past page nine of my 320 page book without someone asking me where the sun cream is what time the next meal will be

or making a poorly veiled critical remark about another member of our group on the pretense that it's made out of concern now this is a theme that is developing isn't it that it's only out of love that actually what you're saying is just mean. There are differences of opinion about parenting, cooking, driving money, swimming pool safety. That's a biggie, isn't it? Oh, God, yeah. And pretty much everything else. Have you waited an hour?

It's been a big lunch. You're letting her swim now. That kind of thing. It's absolutely exhausting. One young child has to go to bed at 7pm, while another one of similar age is allowed to stay up until 11. That issue alone creates tension every single day. I feel caught in the middle

and judged by the others. I seem to almost always either be preparing a meal or cleaning up after the last one. I fantasise about the days when my main holiday concern was the depth and longevity of my tan and whether to have a bath before or after dinner. I love my family

but this is exhausting. I've decided that in future I will not say that I'm going on holiday, but that I'm taking my so on holiday. What son, I think? I'm taking my son on holiday because that's what it feels like. There are moments of relaxation and fun, and the kids are having a great time, but these holidays are difficult for adults,

and I think it's easier if that can be acknowledged. We hear you, sister, because a family holiday like that is not a holiday for you. And I remember somebody saying something very wise when my two were toddlers, that a holiday is just worse than being at home. You just take all of your problems and your difficulties with you to a place that doesn't have your own lego or kitchen that's right and there are holidays that are like that and i mean sometimes i remember my mom used to particularly hate our family holidays i think she'd even admit that now because she had to do everything she did at home but in a

more confined space yeah so that's the thing so you don't have your kitchen your toys in a caravan you can't unless you're very fortunate and you've got some really luxy thing it's just really tough and there was a picture in one of the newspapers today of i think it was the pier at eastbourne and it was gray and wet and there was a single tourist on the pier wearing full waterproofs a monstrous pack a mac on and just looking redoubtable but long-suffering and this is it's not been easy it's we're only about two days away from one of the tabloids doing how to wear your sou'wester with pride i think the times today has given in and got a double-page feature on how to survive this British summer with lots of advice on raincoats. But it's people having different attitudes to parenting

is just such a cause of friction. I can feel my bowels jangling in sympathy with that correspondent. The whole business of the kiddie who's got to be in bed at seven and quite possibly also needs a very important afternoon nap at incredibly specific times and then the other young person of the same age who's still hanging around being profoundly irritating at 11 o'clock i mean it's it's honestly and there's always someone who won't have cocoa pops at breakfast oh, you know, they have to be hidden in a cupboard. It's just... Oh, it's where friendships and family can fail.

So if it is cathartic for you to get it off your chest, then we would love to hear your stories of difficult family holidays. Yeah, or just difficult holidays. And we will always protect you. So don't worry. Share the dirt, but we'll keep your name to ourselves you're safe here this is a safe space your family aren't here yeah is that sincere enough or slightly frightening it was a little bit frightening i think it was the way that you said safe space made me feel really really unsafe okay i'm thinking it's she's not a safe space for me this is anne who joins us from calgary hello in canada uh who says your

conversations with each other ever since the previous one have been a mainstay in my life weekly for your frank discussion on every topic imaginable you say lots of kind things and thank you very much that and ending with uh your relationship with each other plays out honestly playfully and with a touch of frisson too right i married my london-born husband in the noughties when i was in my 50s a loving good man and through him i became a devotee of the bbc the guardian and dare i say the daily mail He's not impressed by that. Well, can I suggest, Anne, you try The Times. Ten years ago, when he was diagnosed, no, I mean it,

with a progressive neurodegenerative condition. I wept for a long time and couldn't sleep at all for years. And what got me through was Desert Island Discs, Woman's Hour, unfortunately. And look, we're now here for you. You go on to say that you have read the book in the book club and we're delighted that you managed to get to the end of it. And it's the thing at the end, actually, Anne, that I think we'd really like to hear more thoughts on.

Anne says, I don't have children and have appreciated learning from you both how precious the mothering bond has been in your lives. I respect this sentiment, but at times from what I've witnessed in the lives of friends and family I've wondered if the experience of motherhood is not over romanticised as the ideal. Dare a woman say that being a mother whilst important was a piece of her life and not the whole of her life or necessarily the best part of her life. Maybe

I'm being overly sensitive. I've lived a life of service and loving care to others and yet can feel undervalued because I haven't had a child. And I'd be curious to hear from your listeners and other women with experiences of not being mothers and yet having rich and meaningful relationships that do make a difference in people's lives. With kindest regards, Anne. Well, it's lovely to hear from you, Anne, and I think we probably will get lots of response to that and do you know what the bit

that stood out for me Jane was her question about dare a woman say that having children isn't necessarily the best part of her life and I think that's a little bit of a taboo and I think there are lots of ways that women can

work into a conversation how other parts of their life are going really well, are really important, are succeeding and all of that. I think it's still hard for women who want to be able to say, I'm just not very good at this, it's not really my forte, it hasn't been the place where I've shone the most. I think that's still so hard for people to say. Yes, and it is hard. It's incredibly hard to say, I really wanted to be a mother and then I became one. And frankly, it isn't what I thought it would be. But the thing about any kind of parenting, whether you're a mother or a father, it changes. I mean, sometimes people enjoy the

first couple of years and find the toddling experience really hard and then everybody says, oh, it's great when they're seven and nine and sometimes it is, but it might not be. And then other people find the adolescent years horrible and then some people don't enjoy kids in their 20s and 30s. I don't know. I mean, it's not the job that it starts off being. Yes, I hear what you say. It's not a definitive thing. No, it's not the job that it starts off being. Yes, I hear what you say.

It's not a definitive thing. No, it's not a definitive thing. And in the end, the best you can hope for is a situation in which you actively look forward to being with your children. I mean, some people just don't have very nice children. That's the other thing. Children that actually, I think it is a taboo for somebody, let's say somebody of 75, to turn around and say, I can't stand my 52 year old daughter.

I just can't bear her. She's a pain in the neck and always has been. Would that be allowed? Has that happened? I'm not 52 and my mother isn't 75. No, but I think you raise a very good point. No, I don't think you can say that. And I think that children of parents who do say things like that or infer things like that or can just sense that that's what has been felt are damaged, obviously, which is a horrible thing to say. But back to Anne's point, I think a lot of people don't ever want to say

something bad about the parenting ideal because they love their children, even if they haven't, even if they can recognise that they haven't been great at being a parent. And those are two different things. And you don't want to damage your child by saying, do you know what, I just wasn't particularly good at the parenting thing. It takes a lot for people to say that. And the gaslighting involved in parents who won't say

that, I think can hurt children too. Yes, but I would hate anybody to feel that they, I don't know, had lost out on membership of the world's greatest club just because they didn't have children. Yeah, or it's the undervaluing of caring when it's not about children, which I think Anne's absolutely right to point out. Yeah, no, very, very much so. Thank you for that, Anne, because it was, if he's right, it was a lovely email and we were very, very happy to receive it. And please do keep your thoughts coming, janeandfee at times.radio. I was talking yesterday about prizes

and my joy at winning a tenner in the first ever lottery, but nothing since. Caroline says, dear Jane and Fee, I won a bottle of red wine at my school's welly boot throwing competition in Wokingham. I was 12. It was a fate that was opened by a successful politician then and now. We need to know. I mean, it wouldn't be difficult to name that. That's not libelous or slanderous or difficult. Come on, Caroline. No, it's not difficult to name a politician who opened a fate in Wokingham

unless money in a brown envelope changed hands. No, and I don't think it would be on the... It wouldn't be on the politician that she won a bottle of wine at the age of 12. No, it wouldn't. There are often just really terrible things on raffles, aren't there? You know, your local street party or your local fate.

It's always Lily of the Valley talc, isn't it? Well, there's just too much hand cream. Or always hand cream. And I can't use it because of my mild eczema. So it's not the gift I ever want. I won't use it because I hate it. I'd like there to be a moratorium on hand cream. I'd like there to be one day where everybody in enormous bins,

probably outside Waitrose, can just hand in hand cream. An amnesty. Yes. Because there are just drawers across the world full of hand cream from 1973. Yes, I think you raise a very good point there. Let's have a national hand cream amnesty and there should be big bins and you can just throw it.

Or there'd be just an absolute sea of gloop. Yeah, just squirt it all in and then chuck your bottles in to be recycled. Yeah, you just squirt it all in and then chuck your bottles in to be recycled. Yeah, lovely. Let's do it. Be proud. Get out there. I'm sure we could do it in aid of something, but I don't know who'd really want to buy the dead hand cream.

No, I can't think of anyone either. I mean, it's the world's most boring... This isn't political, this comment that was about. But the world's most boring saga is Nigel Farage's's bank account it's the story i just want it to stop and today it's come back a little bit and now i've mentioned it again but only because it's really irritating me right i've got it off my chest and i feel better now congratulations to england who beat china 6-1 i was listening to the commentary all the way,

on the way to work, and then for the first, it's frankly the hour and a bit, I was at work today, and it looks like England have found their form at last. But... No, don't say that. Well, I'm just going to say that Nigeria, apparently they really fancy their chances, and that's next Monday.

So, I don't know. Anyway, everything crossed. Do you like watching a match at because it's 8.30 isn't it on Monday

in the morning do you like can you get really really really excited at an early morning game yes I'm not bothered for an international

tournament I'd be happy with that I'd rather like the excitement of watching outside normal hours do you what a free song

that must be you have a nice cup of tea and a bagel. Listen, if you're me, and I will have my bagel, yeah. I'll have my bagel along with it. Go on. Well, Claire has sent a lovely email. I've just been listening to your story about your only ever first win on the lottery, Jane.

You must be overdue for another win soon. And talking of overdue, very nice link, Claire. It took me straight back to that night in November 1994 when at two weeks overdue. Very nice link, Claire. It took me straight back to that night in November 1994 when at two weeks overdue with my first child, I lay in the operating theatre, bracing myself for a terrifying emergency caesarean. Everything that could go wrong went wrong. And as I lay there ready to be opened up,

some bright spark remarked, oh, they've just done the draw for the lottery. At which point the entire medical staff started asking who had and hadn't bought a ticket and what numbers everyone had chosen. They then followed a few moments of fumbling in pockets underneath their scrubs for their tickets to check if they'd won, while somebody left the room to ask what the winning numbers were. At this point, as the scalpel was slicing through my abdomen and uterus,

nice detail, the modesty screen erected to save me from the view below slid off its tracks and fell to the floor. Claire! No one seemed to notice and I ended up having to prop it up myself whilst the numbers 30, 3, 5, 44, 14 and 22 were read aloud.

It was a moment of high farce and one I shall never forget. As they pulled my beautiful baby boy out into the world, the doctor cried, blimey, it's a whopper, referring to my beloved baby, not the jackpot. My firstborn weighed in at a glorious 10 pounds, 2 ounces. I like to think that I won the lottery that night. Oh, well, she did. That's lovely. You did. That's just a fantastic story. Really beautifully told, Claire. And thank you

for sharing it with us. And 10 pounds, two ounces. Sweetheart, I'm wincing there with you. You know, that must have just been an enormous stomach you had on you there, if I can just be honest. Well, that's beautifully phrased. Right. Well had a nine pound ten ounce one and I was huge Jane you just could have honestly I looked like a rugby ball it I was just every which way apart from my feet and my head was just huge. Did you go out like that? Not really no not for about the last month actually. No yes I didn't do a lot of a lot of I wouldn't have traveled the world let's put it that way. No. Not for about the last month, actually. No, yes, I didn't do a lot of, I wouldn't have travelled the world, let's put it that way. No, and I did get to that stage, actually, where I had to waddle from side to side. I couldn't really walk forwards.

I had to go, you know, at a kind of diagonal. I had to weave on every step. This is from a listener who says, I was interested when you and Anna Richardson said a topic that people don't like to admit to is not much interest in sex. I agree that it's hard to say something like that, but I actually think there are other personality traits which are hard to justify to others.

I'm in my 30s and I decided to be teetotal at the age of 19 and it was so hard. It felt like I was forever having to admit some kind of dirty secret. I was frequently challenged, and men often seemed to think it was their night's aim to get me to have a drink, cajoling and trying to encourage me. Student years were really hard. I loved my sports clubs, but hated being expected to do initiations or frequent boozy nights. Tournaments away from home would leave me in a strange city

having loved the sport but not wanting to go dancing or get drunk and then unable to get home. Also and perhaps related I didn't and don't like dancing in clubs. I've had so many people thank me for getting them home or being chauffeur when we were teens. I have no regrets, and it's easier than ever for me now to say no to an invite, as I'm so happy in my identity. And I'll say to friends, no thanks, I just wouldn't enjoy that. Right, I mean, I think that's interesting. I think if that kind of really high-octane social life is not for you, and if I'm honest, it's not really for me,

I think it is really brave to just say, no, I don't think I will enjoy that. I won't go. Very much so. So more power to you. I think not drinking as a student, and I appreciate there are people from religious backgrounds where they wouldn't drink anyway. I cannot imagine what navigating your student years alcohol-free is like. I would find it must be extremely difficult. Yes, more and more young people are becoming teetotal, choosing not to drink. I think it's one in four 18 to 25-year-olds in the country now don't drink. Is that right?

Well, if you go, particularly in London,on if you're traveling around london late at night it's astonishing how many people are sitting you know in those um places that just sell very sweet puddings and ice creams and shakes they're open till late and they're obviously catering for groups of young people who for whom alcohol plays no part in their social life whatsoever and then there are lots of branches of the coffee chains that are open really late as well, aren't there? Yeah. Do you think you just wouldn't have got through student life

if you hadn't had the Dutch courage of booze? I think probably not. Well, I would have found it harder. Definitely. Yeah. I think that's probably true of anybody who went to university in the 1980s. Can you imagine really navigating that stone cold sober? No.

No. Extremely difficult. two's you imagine really navigating that stone cold sober no no extremely difficult but it's a good point as well that even even back in our day yes uh everything what a day it was every student activity revolved around cheap booze yeah you know come to student student night at uh at studio three new york had studio 54 canterbury had Studio 3. Canterbury, yes. Student night was student night not really for the tunes, just for the cheap booze. And student union night was cheap booze. Everything was cheap booze. You could get Pernod

Black for 30p, couldn't you? Well actually we had vodka and lime for a pound so that's the difference, isn't it? It's the five year difference, you see? Crucial. Shall we introduce our guest? I had some great nights on the dance floor at Studio 3, though. Did you? What was the top track at Studio 3? Oh, God, good question.

Well, we were doing an 80s playlist, weren't we? Because we'd been invited on to Virgin Pride. Heaven 17, now there was a band. Oh, that's a good dance floor track as well. Penthouse and Pavement. Yes. What would be your favourite Heaven 17 track? Well, we don't need this fascist groove thing really and could you get a jog onto that uh you could yes the way we

play the 12-inch dance mix and you get the whole floor packed at the university of birmingham good lord yeah absolutely uh just apropos of absolutely nothing one of the one of the tracks on my 80s playlist called Happy Days is Aztec Cameras Oblivious. I just love it. I haven't listened to it for years. It's not really there because it was an all-time favourite when it first came out. But I'm playing it every day at the moment. Do you get stuck on things? Well, that's why for years and years, and this is the truth, I did play Life is a Rollercoaster by Ronan Keating.

I have recently fought that off. I'm very proud. Well, well done. I've been to group and we've talked it through. You've been three years clean. Not quite three years, but certainly this week. Right, our guest today is Sir Nicholas Mostyn. Now, he was a very interesting guest, as it turned out.

The longest serving, second, I should get this clear, make this clear. The second longest serving high court judge. And at one time, the best paid divorce barrister in England. And actually, we're really keen to get him back because there was loads of stuff we didn't get the chance to ask him. But perhaps more importantly, these days, he has just retired, as you'll hear in the interview. He's one of the co-hosts of the Movers and Shakers podcast, which is about living with Parkinson's disease, because he was diagnosed about four years ago with Parkinson's. You'll know that the other people involved in that podcast include Jeremy Paxman, Rory Catherine Jones, Gillian Lacey-Solimar. They're a group of journalists, really, who've got together.

And Nicholas Mostyn is the legal brains of the whole thing and he keeps the rest of them in order. It's a hugely helpful podcast if Parkinson's is playing a part in your life. So we asked him who was in charge, was it really him, who was in charge of this podcast? There's been some debate about that but it was my idea. Right well in that case I do claim that right. Okay and as a former high court judge as of last week you should be in charge it's as simple as that yes well i maybe but the others don't seem to agree all the time no i mean it's funny you mentioned jeremy paxton perhaps isn't the easiest to control no i mean it's it's been quite transformational because

in court 50 i'm not when i talking, I expect people to stop talking, but it doesn't happen on the podcast, that's for sure. That's good. So you're getting a taste of your own medicine. Absolutely. You were, I think this is right, the second longest serving High Court judge, correct? Yes.

Yeah. Who beat you? No, he's called Peter Roth. He's the senior High Court judge. Right. And he was appointed a few weeks before me. Okay. And at one time you were the best paid divorce barrister in the land that's true right that was a long time ago no but

no mean boast i would say um so you have now stopped your legal career that ended last week ended on friday and how how was that was that very strange it was very strange indeed um i i had a little book which i started when i my and I wrote down my first case, which was on the 9th of June, 1981, 42 years ago in the Edmonton County Court. And my entire life of those 42 years since had been doing cases and that stopped on Friday. So it's a rather strange feeling.

There will be no more cases. Yeah, and that's a huge... A chasm has opened up in your mind, presumably. Because I don't imagine that you go home and then forget about everything. You can't, can you? No, no. So there are... I mean, you remember that first case, Dean?

I do. What was it about? It was a domestic violence case. Actually, there's quite a funny story about it. I was sent to the Edmonton County Court to represent somebody who'd been arrested for breach of a power of arrest under the Domestic Violence Act. And he'd been brought before a judge to be dealt with and I

was sent up there to represent him and I stood up and I burbled away to the judge at the end said stand up he said you're in plain breach of the injunction you should be sent into prison but your defence has been so lamentable that it would be a travesty of justice if I were to send you down. I claim that to be a brilliant strategic victory but that was how I began. So an inglorious start. And at the time, I imagine that things like domestic violence

were treated very, very differently. Oh, yes. With indifference or contempt. What was the view of...? There was this terrible view that women were responsible, that they brought it on themselves. It was... I mean, you have no idea what a primitive world it was in that sense.

And, I mean, I'm glad that progress has been made, but I'm still not convinced that it's a very equal place, the way... Well, rape in marriage was only made illegal in the 1990s, I think, wasn't it? It was, yeah. And it was the judges who did this. Right. It wasn't Parliament. No, it wasn't Parliament. No, I mean, when you think about that, that is extraordinary, isn't it? It's absolutely extraordinary. Well, it's because of the legal theory that

goes back to Blackstone, that when you marry, you become unified with your husband, you become a part of him and owned by him, so consent is deemed i mean it's absolutely extraordinary it took until i think it was i think it was mr lord lord simon brown who recently died who did the first case he refused to allow a prosecution for um he he insisted on a prosecution proceeding for marital rape and without that we wouldn't have had that change

absolutely extraordinary yeah well perhaps we'll talk more about your legal career in a couple of moments, if you don't mind. But if you don't mind, and I don't think you do, talking about your Parkinson's... No, I don't. Your approach to it has been, it seems to me, astonishingly robust, in a way. You are still a fit man.

I mean, apparently you can plank for the duration of the Taylor Swift song, Antihero. We're just going to have a blast of that now. It's quite a long song. Three minutes and 20 seconds. It's a lovely song. It's a great song. Great song.

And you're a big fan of Taylor. She's a great lyricist, isn't she? She is. I think her music's quite vanilla, but I mean, I think... I beg your pardon? I mean, I think... I can't believe you've just said... It's not Wagner.

We'll end the interview right now. But I think her lyrics are absolutely brilliant. Yeah, no, she's an absolute star. I don't think she actually needs the endorsement of either you or me, frankly. No, no, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. But you are stopping your legal work partly because you want, I think you want some good years.

Tell me about that. I want to go out at the top. Yeah. And I just feel that I'm, there is a sort of obvious decline. I can't write anymore and I can not type really well anymore. And so I do need this assistance in order to be able to do cases. I have to have a permanent assistant, which give me judicial office give me which is very good um I and but I even so I just feel I just feel that I want to go when I'm in good shape and when

I can put in the bank some good years of retirement I mean I hate do five more years in court 50 and then if I fell off a cliff that you know I would just feel I'd have missed some good time good years of retirement when i can do some productive things particularly on the parkinson's front i really want to do some i want to take the podcast and develop it so that we do more things on the parkinson's front to try and make life more tolerable for people who recently diagnosed because it is they're just most of them are abandoned and are desperate and not most of them but a lot of them are yeah i think desperate. Not most of them, but a lot of them are. Yeah. I think you were on a family holiday when your...

Was it your son noticed a tremor? Yeah. You can see the tremor. I can, yes. I can, yeah. Is it continual? It's worse when I'm stressed and you're frightening me. Well, it's not the first time I've frightened a High Court judge, to be honest.

It's a speciality, especially on a Tuesday, Sir Nicholas. I offer a special service. When your son did notice that, was he recognising something that deep down you had not wanted to kind of challenge yourself about? I'm a very positive person. I'd noticed this tremor, this shaking, and I just dismissed it, because I'd heard that there was such a thing as a benign tremor

I looked that up and I said it must be a benign tremor I'm not going to get it and so I'd been ignoring it but Gregory said you've really got to get that checked out it's not funny so I did that October and the neurologist

I was talking about I really to do so I really really want to try and improve we're all agreed the um bedside manner and the way that the news is delivered by neurologists which is it's just it's unbelievable but um the neurologist went to see told me that he said um well so what it's going to mean he said it's likely you'll be in a wheelchair in five years okay he really did say it like that yeah he did I said I beg? He said, it's likely you'll be in a wheelchair in five years. He really did say it like that. Yeah, he did. I said, I beg your pardon? He said, it's likely you'll be in a wheelchair in five years. I said, what do you mean likely?

He said, 20% chance. I said, that's not likely. That's unlikely. That means it's four times more likely I won't be in a wheelchair than in a wheelchair. But that's the sort of example of how I had it and all the others on the podcast. I mean, the way the news is imparted, and that is a problem. There are 170,000 people with the diagnosis,

and so I really do feel quite committed to do something else, which is to... Yes, it's very worrying to me that the rest of the contributors to the podcast, and I don't mean any disrespect by this you are all very well connected, middle class, articulate people and if that's the way you are treated how are other people with Parkinson's spoken to?

Well there's no national strategy at all and the local strategies are all different some of them have Parkinson's nurses, some don't none of the neurologists even prescribe the same drugs or at the same rate. I mean, there is no national strategy at all. There is a bill in Congress in the US to have a national strategy at the moment, but there is none and there's none proposed in this country. So that's our ambition is to try and get some national standards. And we talk about Parkinson's just using that one word, but how

different might one person's experience of the disease be to another's? Well, I mean, 30% of people with the condition, Parkies, do not have a tremor. So, I mean, the image of a Parkie is somebody with a tremor, which you can see me doing, But 30% don't. And of the 30% seem to be a high proportion with what's called postural instability, which is otherwise known as falling over. Now, that is a really, really psychologically debilitating position to be in. And, of course, Jeremy has spoken about this publicly, and it must be really tough for him.

Really tough for him having that. And then the other big big symptom which is across the board is depression um i i i have not ever been afflicted by depression but the other five have all had it to a greater or lesser extent and it sounds i mean people talk about depression they sort of think about people being a bit down don't they it's completely different it's a completely disabling condition and that's a very very pronounced and then of course the looking down the track the you know the risks of dementia of three times that it is for people without the condition cognition is badly affected so um it would be there are apparently a thousand different ways in which Parkinson's can express

itself in somebody who's got it and is it becoming common? Well I mean there's is it being better diagnosed or is it a higher incidence? I don't know I don't know but I would say there are 160,000 people who have been diagnosed I put quite a lot of money on there being an equivalent number undiagnosed and they haven't got any drugs the undiagnosed ones so I don't know how they're coping but there must be lots of them. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books.

Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Sometimes I think some of Fee's observations made off-air would make cracking broadcast content.

And you'd never have to see me again. Another advantage. We are talking to very recently retired High Court judge, Nicholas Mostyn, who is one of the stars, there's no other word for it, of the podcast Movers and Shakers, which is intended for people with Parkinson's disease, whether you've had it for a while, whether you've recently been diagnosed, whether somebody you care about has Parkinson's, you will really appreciate the content of Movers and Shakers. And it's on all good podcast platforms, isn't it, Nicholas?

It is. That's the kind of phraseology you're going to have to get used to yeah learning the language yeah excellent um let's talk about um the family division and your work in the family courts because this is an area that most people actually if you're fortunate very little about this part of the law what is the family court for well the family court as a court was only established about 10 years ago. Before that, family justice was distributed in a random way between the high court, which has three divisions, one of which is called the family division. It was originally called the probate, divorce and admiralty division. Can you imagine you did all those three things together?

And then it morphed in 1970, I think, into the Family Division, which did the big, important cases. And then the rest of the family justice was done in the county court. So next, by the judges who were doing the possession proceedings and things. And we thought, you know, we really deserve to have a dedicated family court. So under, in 19, 10 years ago, under Cameron, they brought in the family court so which took all the county court jurisdiction and the magistrate's court jurisdiction and put it into one dedicated

court it looked pretty much like the old court but it was one dedicated court and since then they've created some subcourts which was i was the um architect helped i'm sorry that sounds a bit um boastful. I helped to form the Financial Remedies Court, which is the court that deals with the matrimonial finance, the financial aspects of divorce. So we founded that about three or four years ago. And that's been actually a great success.

Great success, but of course, at the hold of the justice system, that needs more money. It does need more money. It needs more money. Yeah. What do you think is the, I mean mean it's quite a difficult question this what is the biggest challenge facing the court system at the moment the bigger the biggest challenge facing the court system is is it has not got enough money it's not so for example in the staff in the that make that

without which the court cannot work there are not enough staff we're supposed in the family division to have i think 19 staff in our office. I think we've got eight. So, I mean, papers just don't move. They don't go from A to B. Courts don't get opened. That's the first thing. We don't have enough judges,

so that people who have absolutely been preparing for their case for six months, if that's the date in the diary, they've instructed a barrister, scraped the money together to instruct a barrister, got everything ready, turn up on the day, sorry, we haven't got a judge, go away, come back in another six to nine months' time. And these are really difficult cases, aren't they?

These are really difficult cases. But I think the substantive law is pretty good. I think the procedural law, I would say that, because I helped to write a lot of it, I think is good. I think people like it, they like the the guidance that have been given but it just is uh is underfunded um can we just talk a little bit i mean you

mentioned earlier in the way we talk about domestic violence for example how much has changed but it wasn't that long ago that i think only men had any right whatsoever to a legitimate child and this is about a hundred years ago a long time ago. A long time ago. Well, actually, in the great scheme of things, not that long ago. The Custody of Infants Act. Yes, and then... In the 1830s. Right.

It gave a woman a right to access, didn't give the right to custody. The Custody of Infants Act. It was not until the Guardianship of Minders Act of 1925 that put them on an equal footing. And there were some terrible decisions, you know,

babes being plucked from their mother's bosoms to take away abominable decisions that were made in the early 1900s. But then we were also told for many years that men had no chance. I mean, everything was stacked against them in the divorce courts, for example. Women got everything. Women got the children, the house, and far too much money. Well, there was that rumour. And there was one judge who, he'd been dead a long time now,

called Lord Justice Ormrod, who was very, very pro-women. And it was portrayed as being an unfair system. But in fact, it was just reflective of reality. If you have a marriage that's broken down, one small house that can't be divided into two houses, with a woman with children, and he's got a job, and she's looking after the children, well, then it's rather going to look like the result, isn't it?

That she gets everything because she stays there with the children he has to go. I mean, that's, you know, the way it was. And how do you think that... But that's changed now. ...that children fare now in the family courts in this country? Do we do better for children than other countries? Well, it's funny, I was just leaving the other day

and a fellow judge um exploded i won't say who it is um but exploded she said that the system is grinding to a halt because with the outpassing of the domestic abuse act which came in to force last year um in all in many many many cases now domestic abuse is being raised as an issue. And in so many cases now, there are very substantial trials being ordered of the facts. So we can't work out if a man should be allowed to see his children until we've had a full trial of the facts, which go on for days and days and days, with the result that the men are not allowed to see the children because there's a prima facie case of abuse, not allowed to see the children unsupervised while the case takes what 80 months to two years so it's it is these these fact-finding cases which

have been a consequence of the domestic abuse i i'm not saying i'm not saying that this is wrong but i'm just saying this is what is happening so just sorry to interrupt but these are men who and they're not always men of course but in some case most cases they are men who have not been found criminally responsible, but their partner is accusing them of it. As alleging domestic abuse. And during that time, they will have very poor access to their children. They will, they'll be supervised access, normally. Often, not necessarily always, but often supervised contact.

And then the system takes a long time to determine the facts. And this is, I don't know, we've got to try and work long time to determine the facts. And this is, I don't know, we've got to try and work out how to manage this phenomenon. That was our guest today, the very recently retired High Court Judge Sir Nicholas Mostyn and we are definitely going to book him again, certainly when anything legal is in the news, but maybe just to talk around some of the issues involved

in the family courts because it's a never-ending well there are all sorts of controversies connected to the family courts and also lest we forget just some incredibly sad very very sad sets of circumstances that end up there and at times as well the disgraceful behavior of divorcing people who are just cannot behave properly and just seem to lose sight of the bigger picture well as nearly it's almost one in two couples ending in divorce now isn't it and I know not all of those will end up in family court it's only the most contentious ones that do but it's an area that we just need to know more about and for so many couples to end up

having to go through that process without knowing what happens in court, I think is really unhelpful. And I didn't realise that the changes in the system were quite so recent. Yeah, only two years ago. So loads to talk about. He was a great guest. It was really lovely to meet him. Shall I just run through a very quick list of some of the suggestions for the book club? But I think we've got enough and we're going to make our decision tomorrow.

suggestions for the book club but I think we've got enough and we're going to make our decision tomorrow but thank you very much indeed to Hannah who suggested How Not to Drown in a Glass of Water by Angie Cruz Nigel has suggested The Lie or The Great Coat

by the wonderful Helen Dunmore and Nigel says love the show from Nigel, yes, Nigel a 70s child, not many of us post says, love the show from Nigel. Yes, Nigel, a 70s child. Not many of us post 2000. None last year. Horror emoji. Oh, Nigel.

Nigel, we're here for you. Be proud. The Exiles or the Dry by Jane Harper. That comes from Megan. We love a Jane Harper, don't we? Yes, I like the Dry a lot. Julie in Oslo says, The Twyford Code by Janice Hallett

or Human Croquet by Kate Atkinson. P.S. I've cited Joe Nesbo live a couple of times. Did he have his hat on? A Simple Plan by Scott Smith comes in from Gail. And Lee Brown suggests The Witness by Nora Roberts. So thank you very much indeed for all of those. And we will announce what we're all reading on the podcast tomorrow. OK, have a very good evening. Enjoy Barbie.

Thank you. There's been so little mention, I've got no idea what you can expect. I feel it's on me to explain it, Jane. I don't even know who's in it. Anyway, tell me tomorrow. Good evening. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fi Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe.

And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank.

Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I know just sorry.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open.

Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.