Off Air... with Jane and Fi - My pepper grinder is in need of a service (with Victoria Hislop)

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Jane's faffing so Fi kicks things off without her. Once she arrives, they chat high tech pepper grinders, the new book club pick and Miriam Margolyes' rider. Plus, Victoria Hislop joins them to discuss her new novel 'The Figurine'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

right so it's fee here with you we're just uh even i've decided we're just going to ai jane into the podcast because she's quite late arriving and she had to go for a whittle during the news bulletin at half past as well i do hope she's okay. Now, today on the podcast, we are going to announce book three in our book club choices. And thank you to everybody who has sent in all of their suggestions. So we were inundated with suggestions. And if we can be really fair and honest and open about it, the book that got the most suggestions was Claire Keegan's latest novella. But we decided not to go for that because it is just really in the kind of currency of discussions about books at the moment. And what we are trying to do with the book club is just

to recommend things that we wouldn't ordinarily have come across. So bear with me because I'm going to look up the exact name of the book that we've chosen but it is by Anne have you got drum roll Eve right okay so it's by Trent Dalton who is an Australian journalist and writer and And the book that we have chosen... Hello. Hello. I'm just doing the podcast on my own. The book that we've chosen is Boy Swallows Universe,

which was recommended by quite a few of our Australian correspondents. So if you'd like to join us in reading Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton, we have made sure that it's available in paperback and on audio as well. However you like to download it, listen to it, read it or whatever. We will give you about five weeks to read it and we will reconvene and discuss Trent Dalton's Boy Swallows Universe. And from what you were saying earlier, some people absolutely love this book,

but not everybody who read it did. No, so it's got quite a few five-star reviews on a well-known reviewing platform, and then it's got some excoriating one-star ones. Well, I mean, yeah, that'll be interesting then. Yes, it will be. And I know nothing about Trent Dalton apart from the fact that he's a man, isn't he?

So this will be our first book. I've never read a book by a man. Have you never, Jane? Have you not solidified your mind? Of course, my dad actually, for many years, claimed never to have read a book by a woman. But in later life, later life, later life, he's very much become a fan of Val McDermott.

Okay. He said to me on Saturday, oh, she's a cracking writer, that Val McDermott. I said, right. If this message reaches her dad, I'm sure the view of a 90-year-old scouser will absolutely shake her world.

But, yeah, you've done well there, Val, to impress my dad. Do you think that that will then allow him to move into more female literature? Well, I think it's only a matter of time before Simone de Beauvoir enters his life. How do you think it's affected him in all seriousness, the fact that he's never read a book from a female perspective, Jane, with two daughters and a wife? I know, genuinely. But I don't think it's affected him in all seriousness, the fact that he's never read a book from a female perspective, Jane, with two daughters and a wife?

I know, genuinely. But I don't think it's unusual. No, I don't think it's unusual at all. Somebody of his vintage, I don't think it's at all unusual, I'm afraid. And I think, just as we have been all our lives listening to men on the radio, seeing men on the telly, reading books by men, and I like, as you know, I love the loads of books by men I like.

But it was perfectly possible to be thought of as a well-rounded male individual, even if you've never, ever picked up a book by a woman. And it's still a huge problem in publishing that men don't read books by women, but women read books by women and men. And it stretches into the podcast world as well, doesn't it? I think it stretches into everything, Jane.

So you've got to make a concerted effort, I think, as a man to actually break through those algorithms now because, as we all know, we are being siloed by technology in terms of our taste, which is why it would be so cracking to read a book by a young

Australian man, well, younger than us. He's not young, he's in his 40s. And, you know, we'll have a nice discussion about that. But you know what, when I was growing up, Jane, it just didn't even enter my head to make a choice about what I read based on who the author was. I mean, just irrespective of gender, country, sexuality, it just really, it just wasn't on my kind of radar.

And that's a sad thing, actually, because I think the older I've got, the more I have thought, who's the author? What do I know about them? Before I've delved into the book, I'm not sure that that's a good thing, actually. It probably isn't. But I mean, you know, we said it a million times,

reading should be pleasurable. I don't think it matters what you're reading as long as you're reading. Yeah. Can I just do one recommendation, actually? Danny Finkelstein's book, which has been out for a couple of months, which is his memoir, basically, about his mum and his dad, Hitler and Stalin,

which I was going to read because I was interviewing him and I'll just be really, really honest, I got hold of a copy of the book and it's quite a meaty tome and I thought, well, I'll just be really, really honest. I got hold of a copy of the book and it's quite a meaty tome and I thought, well, I'll read enough of this to be able to do the interview coherently and I started reading it. I could not put it down. It is the most brilliantly written book about a story that you think you know. You think you might know about a survivor.

So he had family in Russia and Germany. He certainly did. He had family in Germany and Germany. He certainly did. We had, you know, he had family in, yes, in Germany, who then moved to Amsterdam, trying to find a place of safety, and then on to America on one side of his family. And then the other side of his family, under Stalin, were sent to Kazakhstan, often referred to at the time as Siberia as well. So it's an extraordinary story, but it's so well written with these really lovely little details.

So Justin Bieber pops up, Ronald Reagan pops up, strawberries pop up. It's just a really, really easy to read book that tells you so much stuff along the way. So I'd just like to chuck that in as a really serious recommendation. It would be my non-fiction book of the year. What's it called again? It's called Hitler, Stalin, Mum and Dad by Daniel Fenkelstein. Right. I know you've definitely raved about it,

so I will make sure that I seek it out. You also spend a little bit of time in the showbiz company of Miriam Margulies across the weekend. It's just worth mentioning because Miriam doesn't get a lot of attention or coverage. She's shy of retiring. She's a reticent lady. Yes. But, you know, we were talking briefly on the Times radio programme about her

ability, and I think it is an ability, to eat onions as I would eat an apple. And is there any evidence to... There's no evidence to suggest this is bad for you. God, I mean, on the contrary. It can't be.

It can't, because otherwise she wouldn't be as hale and hearty as she evidently is. So I think raw onions do wonderful things in terms of blood cleansing, don't they? OK. And it's a white onion or a red onion? I think it's a... Well, I've only ever seen...

I've only ever met the woman twice. Yeah. So I've only ever seen her with a red onion. You say, I saw her eat a white onion. Well, there you go. That's confusing, isn't it? There you go. She's not a discriminatory person at all.

And how big were her radishes when you saw her? I don't think she had any radishes when I saw her. Okay. This is her backstage rider when she does a theatrical appearance. She has, you know. In her dressing room. In her dressing room. She experienced it on saturday

night was it saturday night friday night uh she has big bowl of onions and some big radishes and radishes can be extremely small i was once at a it hasn't it was a very long and boring evening at a flat in zagreb many many years ago well i love a story that starts with the flat in zagreb many years ago a couple of extremely hospitable Croatian academics, and they served radishes as a kind of, as a sort of amuse-bouche. And I was, I must admit, I was a trifle baffled. I don't think I'd come across the radish in civilian life in the UK. So I always think back to that night.

Fondly. Very hospitable people, the Croats. Okay, so I always think back to that night. Fondly? Ish. Very hospitable people, the Krauts, but you would occasionally get some slight... They were fonders of proffering vats of yoghurt at about 10.30 in the morning. I like my breakfast, I like my lunch. I don't like meals to mongrel.

I don't like a mid-morning snack. I don't really eat that much between meals. I tell you what, so far... Unless I'm here. You're just telling us that they've got excellent gut bacteria. Fresh yoghurt being shoved at you, occasional raw radish. As you know, I mean, since my, I'm now post-kaffir and I've just never been in better form. Well, darling.

Was there anything to dip the radish into or it was just a radish? Yeah, salt. A little bit of salt. Yeah. And something else that happened across the weekend is that my pepper grinder has stopped working. And I did feel, honestly, it was a real low point, even in my very dull middle age, when I had to Google, my pepper grinder is not working.

So the thing that amazed me, dear listener, was that in this anecdote we told in the office today, everyone was standing still, waiting for the denouement. You did say that your pepper grinder was Peugeot. It is a Peugeot. And then our producer, Rosie, said, oh, yeah, I've got a Peugeot pepper grinder. Like this was the most normal thing in the world.

Have you got a citron salt shaker? What's going on? You were extremely unsympathetic and suggested that I visit a Peugeot garage. You should if it's broken. It is broken, but I think they laugh at me. Anyway, if anybody out there in podcast land knows what you do, and I have to say, I have

googled it, and various suggestions, it could be that the milling mechanism is past its peak. So is it diesel or EV? Oh, don't be silly. I had no idea that Peugeot made pepper grinders. Is this common knowledge? Yes, it is in West London.

I don't know what goes on in East London, I really don't. But they're supposed to be. My children bought me these things. They're supposed to last forever. They're like a heritage salt and pepper collection. Well, well, well. I was going to leave them to my grandchildren now i can't the plot thickens so sorry this is the last question about the pepper grinder so you just press it and it kind of it's got a little engine in it what what is the mechanism that needs to have been built by a car manufacturer i don't know why don't you just have one that

where you screw it that's exactly what you do do with it and I don't know whether it's... Why don't you just have one where you screw it? That's exactly what you do do with it, and I don't know why it's called a Peugeot one, and I don't know whether it's in any way connected to the cars. I've no idea. Right. It might be that Peugeot has... You've got an absolutely shocking lack of detail there.

...has a household appliance division, of which I know nothing. Perhaps you can drive down the road at high speed in a Peugeot washing machine. I don't know. I really don't know. OK, well, the good news is that somebody out there will know exactly what you're talking about and will probably get in touch. Angela says, gosh, Rose Tremaine talking about the 60s and her parents was so telling.

I was pushed to a secretarial course and waited till my 40s before getting A-levels, going to university and completing a master's. I'd never thought that maybe my parents were jealous, which was Rose Tremaine's take on her own upbringing. Also, it was a determination of one of my brothers and I never to be like my parents were towards our children. And I hope we succeeded. I could really feel what Rose went through. She was a cracking guest, actually, wasn't she? Yeah, she's a really interesting person. Can we talk about indoor and outdoor clothes? Very much so.

Danny says, I heard you talking about getting changed into more comfortable clothes after work and I had to email in. I'm a supposedly fully grown 28 year old adult. When I get home from work in the winter i get changed into a bright pink flamingo onesie with a flamingo beak protruding from the hood it's just comforting and makes me feel more relaxed well i've got to say if i knocked on that lady's door

and at sort of late in the evening i don't know late by my standards quarter past seven let's go for that and somebody with a flamingo onesie and a beak protruding from the hood answered the door. What would I think? I would think I was interrupting something. Yes, I think I would as well. I should leave quickly. Yeah.

I was on Lime Street Station a couple of weeks ago in Liverpool and I saw a couple of people wearing what I thought was a costume, but my kids told me they were furries. What? Yes. People who just wear a sort of furry outfit. A kind of animal-like outfit. Like a onesie?

Like a onesie but they go about their daily business. They are furries. Are they fur-sexual? I don't know whether there's any sexual element to it at all but they just dress as dress as furries I think it's entirely harmless and listen, it's a free country

do what you like Craig says, giraffe onesie flatmate had a zebra onesie, happy times we're missing out on something now I think we are Elizabeth lives in Switzerland it's almost a national law that you take your shoes off inside homes. I'm not sure if it's out of respect to the floors

or the downstairs neighbours, or possibly both. I'm fully behind the shoes-off rule, it feels polite, but some people have a large collection of guest slippers at their door. Now, I'm not sure if this is a thoughtful gesture to save guests from cold feet or if it's to stop smelly, uncovered feet from touching your floor. Either way, I find the gift of wearing communal slippers

a bit gross. Very gross. I agree. I absolutely agree. Yes, I'm afraid I couldn't do that. No. No, I really couldn't. Thank you for your podcast.

You pick me up and give me an energy boost I'm afraid I couldn't do that. No. No, I really couldn't. Thank you for your podcast. You pick me up and give me an energy boost as I transition from work mode to evening entertainment and bedtime routine with my one-year-old. Yes, it can be a little tricky getting the toddling population to go to bed, can't it? It can seem like a full shift. Yeah, that is quite a shift. So good luck with that, Elizabeth, and I'm glad we're able to keep you company. Now, Jane is a very little-known part of the world called Stockport.

I can hardly believe my first email to you was prompted by your interview with Ken Follett, not an author I follow at all! Although I've never read one of his novels, he does have a very fond place in my heart. When I was backpacking around Venezuela with my then-boyfriend and a couple of friends in 1996, one of us found Ken's book, Lie Down With Lions, on one of those hostel bookshelves where people leave novels they've read for others. My friend was obsessed by the book and would read

us passages. For some reason, we found it hilarious and it became a running joke during our travels. I can't for the life of me think what was funny about it, but your interview stirred up all of those happy memories and also made me wistful for my youth. Perhaps I'll get round to reading the book. Please could Jane confirm whether it's one of his good ones? You know, I read that email. Thank you for it. I don't know about that one. Is it one of his wartime books? Well, I don't know. I mean, you're the Ken Follett girl guide. Yes. I would, the books I've read of his, I haven't read all of his. I read a book called Whiteout,

which was about something escaping from a lab. That's very good. It's set around Christmas and a slightly dysfunctional family. So I would go for that one, actually. Okay. I don't think Jane's looking for another one to read. She is. I think a reading between the I don't think she is. I think a reading between the lines I think she is.

She goes on to say Bloomin' Nora, that fellow can talk. Loved the interview but nine minutes into an answer to one of your probing questions I'd entirely forgotten what he was discussing. I'm astonished his books

only run to 750 odd pages. His editor must be busy. Can I also just ask whether you had any uncomfortable feelings about having Geoffrey Archer on your show? He did go to prison. I could possibly see

why you might give him airtime if he had anything useful to say about prison reform or politics, but he declined to be drawn on either and spent his time patronising you and plugging his books. I'll definitely not be reading any Geoffrey Archer. Well, I was away that day. Yes. Listen, Geoffrey Archer. Well, I was away that day. Yes. Yeah.

Listen, Geoffrey Archer can patronise me, patronise me anytime he likes. I think that was an interview where you could enjoy it because you could read between the lines. That's all I'll say about that. OK. He's a very successful author and, as we can safely say about Geoffrey Archer, a great storyteller. OK.

A really good one. I might get hold of a copy of Lie Down With Lions, Jane, and just see if it is. No, the other Jane. But you can answer to that too, yes. And I've got a feeling, actually, why don't we do a little experiment? I might just bring in, I don't know,

Joanna Trollope or something in from home and just see if just reading out tiny passages apropos of nothing is funny, because I think it is, actually. Why do we play Trollope or something in from home and just see if just reading out tiny passages apropos of nothing is funny because I think it is actually. Why do we play Trollope or Follett? Good idea. Come on! Christmas has come early.

Okay. But it just is funny sometimes, you know, when you take something completely out of context. We've now invented a quiz which will make us millions. Millions and squillions. Absolutely millions, yeah. Okay, Helen says, I hope you don't mind me coming straight to the point.

No. But since no one else has asked yet, is Michael Ball going to be coming on the podcast? He has quite a book to promote, as I'm sure you already know, and I think now must be as good a time as any. OK, I'm here to tell you that he is coming on, isn't he? He is, I think in a couple of weeks' time. Is it the week after next?

Next Thursday. Thursday after. Yes, Thursday. Is that the 12th of October? That's after we come back from Cheltenham. Oh, what a week we've got next week. Well, we have because we've got Shirley Ballas on Monday from Cheltenham. Do we know who Tuesday's Cheltenham guest is, Eve?

It's not 100% confirmed. Not 100% confirmed. So if you hear a guest on Tuesday when we're in Cheltenham, you'll know they're a tiny bit of a last-minute booking, but we'll certainly sound enthusiastic about chatting to them, I can assure you. OK, so rest assured, Helen, Michael Ball is heading your way. Excellent.

And I'm very excited about that. Now, Lucien sent a very nice email, and thank you for picking up on this, Lucien, because I felt that it rather sank without trace. Hello, Fi. I was listening to your podcast and heard that you were on a quest to source some bounty candy for Jane. I thought that was so nice of you to do that. Pause. Very nice. Thank you. So I'm writing to let you know that you can find some American candy in London that's very similar to bounty. And here we go, Jane. Do you like the sound of this? Almond Joy, which is made of milk chocolate and coconut, just like a bounty, but it also contains nuts.

It's not going to work because it's milk chocolate. The point is you like a dark chocolate. That's what I was trying to find for you. No, I like dark chocolate bounties, but I really prefer... Can I just be really pedantic here? I like a dark milk. A dark milk? Yeah. A dark milk? Yeah.

A dark milk chocolate. I do, yeah. Tony Chocolone does. Oh, okay. Now, I was just going to buy you the Bounty Diner. I'm not funding your chocolate habits. Can't you buy me Tony Chocolone? But here's the other suggestion from Lucien.

Mounds. Oh, I don't like the sound of those, I'm afraid. Which is made of dark chocolate and coconut without nuts. Now, I'm sorry, Lucy, but when I read that, I had the same reaction as Jane. I am never, ever going to be able to part my good money, hard-earned wages, for a chocolate bar called Mounds. No, I don't want a mound.

Because that just sounds like... It may as well be called high in calories, which is a bar nobody would buy. Just the word mound. Yeah, no. It's wrong. It's wrong. But, Lucy, thank you.

Thank you for noticing. I'm trying to have a moderately healthy week this week. Did you have any of the brownies? No. And you brought in these lovely brownies. I know they're really lovely because they're from the Gower, aren't they? Yeah, and you managed to stand off from them. I know they're really lovely because they're from the Gower, aren't they? Yeah, and you managed to stand off from them. I have not had one.

Wow. I know. Are you pregnant? Why would that stop me eating a brownie? I'm feeling a little sick. Yeah, that'll be it. I wanted to mention, well, first of all, Lisa, who I remember was our guest, she was a guest emailer last week.

She emailed in to say that her husband, she was in sort of quite a low mood a couple of months ago because her husband had beggared off with an Irish novelist. Oh, yes. Remember this, and she was good. We'd love to know, Lisa, if you found the camper van of your dreams. So do let us know. You probably won't be listening today

because it is a lady novelist as our big guest, but you are free to listen the rest of this week. Don't so she's not listening now but if she were she might hear this okay and can i just say a thank you to the very kind emailer who sent me a picture of a picture of the walthamstow ferry uh there isn't a walthamstow ferry but somebody when she left walthamstow and moved down to a seaside resort, had been given by a friend of hers a made-up picture of the Walthamstow ferry. Here it is, Laura Sequeira, who has moved to Hove, but the picture here is of Walthamstow on sea, and that was because of my really silly dream. So thank you very much indeed for that.

Great. Okay, Our big guest today Did I say great enthusiastically enough? You said great in such a patronising way Do you know what, you said great in the way that sometimes you know when very occasionally they have a clever person guest presenting on the one show you said great in that kind of a way

when they've just introduced a piece about dancing puffins I mean and they have to think of something to say off the back of it Great! Well to be fair that is quite hard I'd love to see you do that

that would be so funny I've got to accept that my chances of presenting the one show fee are extraordinarily low No I think you should raise your game. Agent M, thank you very much. Oh, Agent V, by the way, did get in touch last week to say she was still listening.

That was the lady who paid for the Ken Follett charity lunch, so delighted to get that email, and thank you very much for sending it in. But this is Agent M who says, I'm sorry it's taken me so long for me to introduce myself. Yes, you have been a bit tardy, but we'll let you off. I've just sold up after many years owning and running my hotel business. The experience was never a first choice as my husband had bought the business while I was away sailing in Greece.

The things that go on. You pop off to Greece on a sail. Get home to discover that Hobby has only gone and bought a hotel business. It could happen to anyone. Well, I'm glad it never happened to me. The building was listed and falling apart. The kitchen floor imploded the week we took over. There were birds nesting in rooms and within weeks of taking over,

we had to deal with the fallout of Foot and Mouth and 9-11. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, but in time I found my feet and some great staff to help me and eventually the 9-11. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, but in time I found my feet and some great staff to help me and eventually the place came together. But the later years, the dreaded Covid years, were really hard and like so many others I struggled emotionally and financially. We did have to sell in June and I'm now adjusting to the changes ahead. Well, I hope the adjustment hasn't been too painful. That must have been, I mean, to put everything you've got

into running a business like that, it must be really difficult to pack it in, mustn't it? Yeah, definitely, definitely. She does go on to say, what should a man call his torture? Well, that's the question of the day, isn't it? That's a difficult one. I just don't know what the answer is, another day, isn't it? That's a difficult one. I just don't know what the answer is and I'm going to throw it over

to our male members. Literally. Absolutely literally. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Is there an acceptable name? Because I'm not having Willie. I'm just not. No, we're not.

No, no. And I think we can just all agree, we know that we should be really, really comfortable with saying penis and vagina. Yeah, but we're not. But we're not. And there's something about them, just in a lexicography way,

which is just difficult. They're not pleasant words. It's so odd, isn't it? Yeah, and I wonder maybe other languages Have more pleasant words for them Well some of our listeners will know As you know I'm not a linguist But you are better at languages than I am

No not that good darling No not that good Don't land it all on me You're about to hear an interview with Victoria Hislop Who writes so many best selling Mega successful novels about Greece and other Mediterranean destinations, I should say.

It's not just Greece. But she does say during the course of the interview, and I've been thinking about it ever since, that whilst the ancient Greeks were doing all these incredible artworks, sculptures, building these amazing temples, in England they were doing Stonehenge. Which is beautiful. And it is a feat of engineering.

Oh, yes. Yeah. Hot. Hot. So I think there are some fantastic comparisons on exactly that kind of, you know, what were we doing when? And I'm pretty sure that when the Chinese were inventing the wheel and when a papyrus was being made in Egypt, I think we were pretty much still in the cave. Really? Yeah.

I don't think we show up well on that graph, Jane, at all. I want to end this conversation. We invented Strictly and we've got, what else have we got? Don't put me on the spot. Don't put me on the spot. Don't put me on the spot. Well, according to Jeremy Hunt today, we've got an absolutely thriving Silicon Valley. There we are.

Right, okay. Although obviously we're not Silicon Valley, so that argument falls down immediately, doesn't it? Right, quickly, let's get back to Greece. Our guest today was the author Victoria Hislop. I'm handing it over to you because you were leading the interview. Victoria's latest novel. We get paid for this.

Victoria's latest novel is called The Figurine. It's her ninth book. Now, as many of you will know, so many of her great books are set in Greece, including the first one, which was The Island, which is a genuinely lovely and insightful novel about what was actually a colony for people with leprosy. And it was hugely successful. That was her breakthrough book. The book, not the colony. Not the colony, no. Definitely the book. The figurine is very interesting and it calls

into question the acquisition of cultural treasures and the price that countries will pay and the price that countries will pay to cling on to them victoria is also an honorary i can never read victoria is also an honorary greek citizen and what's more she has even been a competitor on what fee strictly come? Strictly Come Dancing does Grease. Yes, the Greek version of Strictly. Indeed. Two years ago, I would have been rehearsing my, probably my cha-cha at this very moment.

Okay. And it's tough. Oh, no, I'm sure it is. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Who was your partner? He was called Telemachus.

Yes. Son of Odysseus. I'm sure all your listeners know that. Well, I certainly knew that. And he was a tymajos yes um son of odysseus i'm sure all your listeners know that well i certainly knew and he was a tyrant was he he was half my age um his mother was twice my age did he have some daddy issues well he was he treated me as though i was a professional and i learned all sorts of new greek words some of them swear words, but one of them was spagad. And I remember the moment very distinctly when he just said, spagad, spagad. And I said, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I could sort of tell him that in Greek. And he said, it means the splits. And I said, well, I can't do the splits. Can your mother do the split? He really pushed me and i gave it my all and i lasted i think for 10 weeks that's amazing so you know i wasn't quite the kind of joke absolutely not no um and it was the most extraordinary thing i've ever done and everybody who does it says the same they don't regret it this is the weird thing so people do

seem to just drink the old strictlyrictly Kool-Aid and say exactly what you've just said. You love it, you hate it, you cry, you laugh, and the live performance brings out the best in everybody. That's what's so remarkable, I think, about the brain. Under pressure, we can do it. But don't you start to... I mean, if somebody's really really

pushing you physically and there are just some things you can't do that can feel like a really uncomfortable position to be in so painkillers help i lived i lived on painkillers painkillers and um you know that gel um that you plaster we're all familiar with it i won't i didn't know whether i was allowed to say Voltrol, but really, I couldn't have survived without Voltrol. It was wonderful. I mean, it was amazing agony and ecstasy. Right.

At extremes. Okay, well, that's given us a proper insight. And shout out again to your partner who was called? Telemachos. Yes, I bet he'll be listening. Okay, so let's talk about your writing career, and particularly the figurine, which introduced me to a part of Greek history I didn't know anything about at all, actually,

the period of a military dictatorship in the country, which lasted quite a chunk of time, didn't it? Yes. And it was very vicious. It began in April 1967 with a coup by three rather mediocre army colonels. They weren't even the top chaps in the army. They were a bit sort of, you know, second rank, really.

But they conspired, staged a coup, got rid of the king. You know, they had a royal family at that point. And for seven years ruled with a rod of iron. point and for seven years ruled with a rod of iron and in fact it was only the 1974 crisis with Cyprus that finally toppled the regime so Cyprus was probably the moment when a lot of us became aware that Greece was under a military junta. Yes just to remind everybody what happened in Cyprus, that the Turks decided to... To invade Cyprus because the Greek junta had deposed the democratically elected Makarios. That's right.

And that sort of triggered a sort of series of events that brought about the downfall of the junta. But during that junta period, there was no freedom of speech, obviously no democracy, no voting, and people on the left were persecuted and exiled, people like Melina McCurry, who every one of our generation remembers the fiery actress who eventually became minister for culture. But the junta period was terrifying for

those who tried to resist it and yet the irony is they began great promotion of tourism so i think a lot of us might have gone to greece for holidays early 70s they built hotels and they promoted greece as a lovely destination which of course it is I mean I'm probably biased because I do regard it as by some margin the best place to go on holiday oh that's lovely to hear and there's just something about the your books which take me back there there's the quality of there's something about the quality of sunlight first thing in the morning in Greece that I don't think can be bettered anywhere else I've ever been. Well, I totally agree. I mean, we've all discovered vitamin D.

You know, that's our new daily vitamin, isn't it? To keep us mentally well and physically well. And I think Greece is a vitamin D version of a country. The central character here is Helena, who we first meet at the very beginning. And she is on, well, she goes on a kind of annual trip to stay with her grandparents. Now, her grandmother is a very nice, relatively benign figure, but her grandfather, tell us about him. the junta so he's a senior army commander um but he gives everything to that cause um at the expense of his family and at the expense of many people who he takes bribes to persecute um and he's not based on anyone particular there isn't a real uh general papayanis lurking out there somewhere but he's

based on a number of um sort of army generals that i read about who you know loyally served these three colonels when some of the generals actually resigned from the army because they weren't in favor of what had happened. But he's a badden. And the protagonist gradually, through her little eight-year-old eyes, comes to understand that. Yes, and there's one rather chilling episode where she's out in the street and hears the sound of screaming from a building where it is widely rumoured

to be a place where people are taken to be tortured. Yes, I mean, absolutely. Those sort of details are very, very much factual. I never sort of make anything bad up about Greece. You know, these sort of rather dark, sinister events and places existed. So during that junta period, people were tortured, many of them slightly more in more obscure places like the islands of Makronisos, where they were imprisoned.

But there were places of interrogation in Athens as well. I was going to ask you about that, because I wonder whether now you are an honorary Greek citizen, where you feel, perhaps you feel a sort of loyalty to the state, the nation, the people, which might make it harder for you to write about rather difficult parts of Greek history? You might think so, but I don't believe that's how I should be. You know, I don't feel I should be sort of the puppet, and I'm not.

And interestingly, younger Greek readers, because in a week or so the translation will come out, and that's when I'm a little bit fearful, because I go on the road in Greece and I meet audiences who may not like me writing about the civil war or the junta or the torture that happened but conversely I meet many people who say well thank you for telling me about that part of history because it doesn't really come into their curriculum and nobody seems to mind learning a bit more about their own country's past we say Greece as if it is just one country but I mean there are so many different islands there are so many different communities

so how how wide is that kind of spectrum of the Greek experience? It can't just be one thing, surely. It's not. Absolutely not at all. There are hundreds of islands with a population, inhabited islands that you've probably never heard of. And every island is unique and different. And indeed, you know, the mainland is mountains, lakes, you know, extremes of kind of topography.

But Athens does dominate because unlike many countries, the UK, good example, many more than half of the population of Greece live in Athens. So out of a 12 million population you have six million there so it really does a you know dominate massively and I really always wanted to set a novel a little bit more in Athens I've mostly chosen other cities and places because I think it it does determine everything that goes on in Greece. And what about its connection to its ancient self? I mean, 5th century Athenian democracy was the mother of all democracies, wasn't it, the crucible of democracy?

So is there a sense that there is always that kind of backup behind the modern politics of Greece, which can seem slightly confusing. And as you've mentioned, you know, often with an element of corruption and force and threat around it. Democracy in Greece, although we say, oh, the Greeks invented it,

let's not forget that women didn't vote. So it's not democracy or slaves. Or immigrants. So you're absolutely right. so it was the vote for men yeah so it's not the the democracy that's evolved to mean what it does to you and i today you know um it's it's changed but nevertheless the concept of it very importantly is greek many greeks are even frustrated by their own country for trying to promote the idea that they are connected with that great you know classical past because of course there were

big gaps you know they had the Ottoman Empire there for 400 years so they don't even they don't believe that there's this straight line of continuity from, you know, the 5th century Athens to BC, Athens to now. And they're very, in their education system, the really liberal, enlightened people I meet say, you know, people shouldn't buy the idea that we're like the ancient Greeks. Because if we believe that we are as the ancient greeks because if we believe that we are as powerful and strong it's not true you know they're they're a little bit more complicated than that um but it's good in terms of tourism you know i don't like to sort of disassociate the ancient greece from what you go to. Because that's what we go to marvel at, as well as the lovely light and all of that.

Yeah, absolutely. It is that ancient culture. You know, they were, let's say, when we were building Stonehenge, they were creating these kind of beautiful sculptures that I've described in the book. Was it exactly at the same time? About that. You're very defensive about the British.

Yes, no, I know, and I should be as well. We were doing our best. In fact, I read only the other day that in the 19th century, people used to go to Stonehenge and chip off bits of those stones. I was quite shocked that that happened, as, of course, it did in Greece. People used to carve bits off, carve their names in the stones. Gosh, it's actually horrendous when you think about it. Victoria is the author of a number of hugely successful books,

many of which set in and around Greece, and her new one is called The Figurine. We'll talk about The Figurine in a moment, but you are a member of this British committee for the reunification of the Parthenon marbles. Now, I think you've changed your opinion on all this, haven't you? Because as a little girl, didn't you go to the British Museum? Yes, absolutely.

As everyone my age did, we revered the British Museum. And I think the first really memorable exhibition that I went to was the Tutankhamun exhibition, which was obviously the visiting treasures um from from the valley of the kings and it was it was life-changing it was the most exciting day of my childhood almost you know because we didn't go to egypt to have a look at things we hoped they'd come to us um and i massively respected neil mcgreg He was a very, very charismatic speaker. Remind me, he was the...

He was the director before Hartwig Fischer. Right. So he was the one before last. Yeah. And did the, you know, the world in a hundred objects. Oh, yeah. And very, very creative man. And could speak very convincingly about the British Museum as the world museum.

And something has happened since then not just to me but I think in the attitude of many of us that why should the British Museum be the world museum we're not even part of Europe anymore so to say that this is somewhere that everyone should come and see the world it just believed it from Neil MacGregor, but right now it just feels like arrogance. Well, the British Museum's had any number of problems lately, hasn't it? Indeed. That's been very well covered by the Times, that they've discovered that they have perhaps 2,000 pieces missing from their collection and then at the same time it's sort of been exposed that actually they hardly know what's in their collection because it's not properly catalogued. So they really don't have any right to regard themselves as the the

world's number one museum? Well their curation is obviously questionable I think you know that's putting it politely. So let's talk then about the things we used to regard or describe as the Elgin marbles um how did it was Lord Elgin wasn't it yes he was Lord Elgin a hereditary lord um who lived in Scotland and he uh was ambassador to the Ottoman Empire and he came back with not exactly with the Parthenon sculptures but he decided he wanted to have these treasures

to decorate his own house in Scotland he wasn't taking them for the British Museum for you and me and Fee to have a look at he wanted them for his British Museum for you and me and Fee to have a look at. He wanted them for his own pile, his big country pile. And he got permission to take moulds so that they could be copied for his house. But actually, that was the permission given.

And then he decided, I'll take the originals, no one will mind. So in a process that took nearly two years, he hacked them off with crowbars and hacksaws, with this team of locals, and had them shipped back to England. Some of them sank. One of the ships sank on the way. They went to the bottom of the sea. He had to pay to have them brought up.

It's a long story, but it's a short one. Basically, he stole them. And the British Museum saw that this man was bankrupt, which he was. His wife had left him for his best friend. There's a book there, isn't there, really? Oh, there's more. For somebody else, I couldn't write a book

with such a bad person in it. And the British Museum basically paid him for the expenses. You know, he needed the £35,000 that he was paid just to bail him out from all the money he'd spent on this operation. So, having heard that, and thank you for the explanation, why have we not given them back? Why have we still got them? What a good question, because legally, although they're stolen goods, which you might think is shaky ground, but legally the British Museum does own them because they did pay the person who took them offered them this money

so they are there is a legality um but nevertheless you know and there's a law that says that the british museum can't part with its treasures without an act of parliament but you know an act of parliament we all know is a piece of paper it can be done But, you know, an Act of Parliament, we all know, is a piece of paper. It can be done. And, you know, as is often, I think, written in the Times, the majority of the British public now believe that they should go back to Athens. You know, it's even a popular view

that they don't belong in this dark grey miserable juvying gallery which may i say it was closed last month for 12 days for no advertised reason um so you couldn't go in there and even see them if you wanted to it's a really sad story actually it's making me feel quite um i'm quite angry about it i feel angry if i'm, I've been slightly indifferent about this whole saga for most of my life. But given all of that, how much longer do you think that they will be in this country? Because there won't come a time when people change their position if they've gone over to that side of believing that they should be returned. No, I mean, I believe that the latest events at the British Museum

slightly put them on shakier ground and they can't now say oh we are curating everything better than they'll ever be curated in athens that's patently untrue because of the museum in athens that's been built beneath the acropolis to accommodate them which is a place full of glass and light and the view of the Parthenon itself above it. And there's no reason why you should know the answer to this question but you just might. Is there another country that has plundered our treasures in the same way that we've plundered? I could almost put my hand on my heart and say i don't know but i don't think so what would they what would be plundered unless it's one person that's plundered these 2 000 objects but it just

says so much about our mentality doesn't it yes i think it's time for us to be and it's making us very unpopular as a nation when you you go to the museum in Athens, there's a very polite notice that just describes the reason that these sculptures are not there. And that's quite unusual. And as a Brit, you can feel quite ashamed of that. The title of the book is The Figurine, and they are tiny little figures, aren't they,

that are found quite routinely on digs in Greece? Yes, there are many of them found in the Cycladic Islands and they're mysterious because nobody quite knows what they were for. They were created during a time before writing or records, so it's all a little bit guesswork. They're not dolls, they weren't little dolls? Well, some people think they might have been to sort of play with or to keep you company in the afterlife but nearly over 90 percent of the ones found um are the female rather than the male so they have this

kind of mystique you know were women worshipped it's certainly um a sort of symbol of fertility and of femininity and of womanhood, which even the modern artists revered hugely because of their beauty. So, I mean, the book also, there's a suggestion that quite routinely, I'm sure this doesn't happen, I'm just covering myself, occasionally on archaeological digs, people pinch stuff. Well, that's what happens in the story. Yes, it happens in the story, and it's just a story. But actually, my whole kind of... The reason I came across the figurine in the first place was when I went to an archaeological dig. And one of the things I was told immediately

was that before this current group of British archaeologists got there this whole huge grave site a grave site had been looted and many of the figures had turned up in private collections abroad so there is a market for stolen looted objects. And the one that fetched the most in the 20th century was $16.5 million. Right, that's a lot of money. So people are doing it for money. You know, it's not petty crime. It's quite a large-scale theft.

It certainly isn't. That's astonishing. Actually, again, rather depressing. But this book is not depressing. I need to make it very clear. There's a little bit of... There's a light romance. There is. There's no smut, thank goodness,

because in that heat, who'd be in the mood for it? No, I never do smut. No. Ever, ever. Victoria, I don't want you to. I really don't. No, I really loved it because your stories do genuinely transport the reader

and that's what they're all about. You've been doing that since the island, haven't you? And it's much appreciated. I know you're at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. When are you appearing? I'm there on Saturday evening. Right. I think about eight o'clock.

Okay. And are tickets still available? Well, I hope not. If they are, it's worth it. You'll have to get there quickly. Make sure you have a look. She's always really, isn't she always lovely, Victoria Hislop? She is lovely.

Yeah, she's very nice. So you did make a very funny joke about Moussaka at the end of it, which we couldn't keep in the podcast version because the music was running underneath it. And I can't remember exactly what it was, though, but it made her laugh. It did make, well, only because there's a very brief reference to Moussaka in the figurine

because it involves quite a number of archaeological digs and Helena, the central character, just finds that Masaka isn't really what she wants after a difficult and heady day in the sun, excavating, you know, you can imagine. Well, who would? Well, I know, what you really want is a little bit of... It's what I want every night, really,

just a small plate of white fish and a lovely green salad. So why so often do I find myself eating a cheese and pickle baguette? I just don't know. It just comes over you. It just comes over me. And I find myself unable to exist on one of those diets of egg white omelettes, white fish and green leaves. Anyway, moussaka, it's a strange food for the Greeks

to have as pretty much their national dish because, let's face it, it's bloody hot there. I know. And moussaka is a meal that would satisfy someone who'd done a 12-hour shift in a mine in a northern... Do you know what I mean? It's not a sunshine food, is it really? No, but presumably a Greek winter is quite chilly. I hadn't thought of that.

Yeah, so maybe we've taken the winter dish, haven't we? Presumably, a Greek winter is quite chilly. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, so maybe we've taken the winter dish, haven't we? Because now our summers are warming up. I'm not sure that we should really be associated with the pies. It's not just our summers, is it? Oh, we're in a balmy autumn and it's troubling. Well, I know that the temperature isn't really, really high all over the UK this approaching weekend, but certainly in London it is a ludicrous 26 Celsius on Sunday.

And call me an old fart, V, but I don't think it's right. You're an old fart. Good night. Bye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us

every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I know, sorry.