Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Nancy's poo was 'ere (with Thangam Debbonaire)

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

Jane’s off for the day, so Fi’s being propped up by Eve… They discuss memorial benches, a new career path for Brett from Suede, relationships with celebrities, and what goes on in the Isles of Scilly. Plus, Thangam Debbonaire shares the shortlist for the Women’s Prize for Non-fiction. Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm very interested in the criteria for young youth's holidays. I think they may be different to mine. You want to go somewhere hot and reasonably priced. Yes. Fun? Correct. Beachy. Yep.

And I think probably that you can do superheat still, can't you? Yes. I seek out the superheat. So can you go as high as 40 without having to be indoors? or just in the shade weeping? Maybe 37. 37? Quite specific. I feel like that is probably the amount I've been able to manage.

But when it's August, it's not just the heat, it's the crowds as well. So it all does get a lot, doesn't it? Isn't it dreadful when you go on holiday and other people that've gone on holiday too? The worst. Just the worst, Steve. I'm with you, sister. Absolutely with you.

Have you thought about your some holiday? Yes, in fact, only this morning. because I've got two weeks off in August as well. I don't usually take two weeks off. Well, two weeks and one day. And one day. As I get continually reminded by the team. You're absolutely right.

Stretching into the bank holiday. And I did find myself, I was doing a little internet search for self-catering facilities on the North Kent coast. So there's a difference between us, Eve, and that difference will remain. It may not reach the heavy heights of 37 degrees. You never know.

I think... Well, they're these days. summers. They can be. Yeah, they might touch it. I was actually trying to arrange a family gathering because we've got a lot of,

you know, the octogenarians. Definitely, definitely need celebration. So you probably don't have to tick very many of the other boxes when you're trying to book accommodation. I found myself taking nearly every single one. It's just a lot of criteria.

Ended with one available property. Yes. All on one level with a lot of handrails. And that's fine, that's how it should be. It is the good ship even fee today because Jane is on dad duty up in Liverpool just for the day. So we hope everything goes smoothly up there.

I can say up there because we are in London. And Jane will be back tomorrow and Eve and I will bob along through this one. It's the most glorious, glorious spring day in London. A little bit of a wind chill factor going on. But it is, it definitely lightens the load, doesn't it? when you see the blue sky. Yes, it's looking very bright out there,

but I'm not complaining. But you know what? It was so windy last night. I went downstairs this morning, about 6.30, and the conservatory doors have blown open. Oh, my gosh. So I had that moment to you where I thought, have we been burgled?

And it's quite funny. So there's so little of value in the house. I just looked around and thought, well, maybe I have, and they just didn't. take anything. It's just everyday fee. That gets worse and worse.

It's as if I don't actually want to move. But no, yeah, the weather was... It was very, very, very blowy. And I watched last night the Mr. Nobody against gluten. What did you think? I thought it was so sad. It made me feel actually a bit hopeless. Oh, gosh, Eve, you don't want to feel hopeless.

Sorry. Because I just... looking at these children and I just don't know how you undo that damage. I know exactly what you mean. I don't think any of us, I mean, I would challenge anybody to watch that film and be non-plussed by it and think, oh yeah, that just confirms what I always thought was going on in Russian classrooms because it's so terrifying, isn't it? And of course, bless them, you know, the lovely little puppets six, seven years old, they just want to get everything right for the teacher.

Yeah. So they are learning all of this just. absolute rubbish about Europe and about what happens in England and about why it's totally all right for Russia to have invaded Ukraine and they're learning it by rote and you're right you know to find a challenge to that later in life they will just think it's the misinformation of the enemy weren't they yeah yeah it's when you plant that seed that young yeah and you can just see them completely absorbing it and by the end I was just like God, but Mr. Nobody, he kind of is that light of hope amongst it all,

because he is just, what an amazing person. Yeah, and you hope that every town in Russia has a Pascha. Yeah, yeah. He's trying to get stuff out. And I read in an interview that in the town, they have been kind of like sneaking copies of it and like pirated versions and passing it around, and I wondered if it would do any good, hopefully.

Well, hopefully it will, because he was obviously such an adult, and respected part of the community, you hope that people go, okay, he's a good bloke, he must be saying something of merit. Yeah, yeah. But then the spooky teacher, and, I mean, he was absolutely reminiscent of,

I mean, everyone's got a spooky teacher in their memory bank, but he was just Mr. Ticky box, creepy, I mean, when he got given the prize. What was that about? And we shouldn't give away too much. much, but, you know, you just thought, oh my God, it really is the wrong people being rewarded here. That was so sad as well because Mr. Nobody said I went feeling hopeful.

Yeah. So I was watching that as the wind blue and the rain started bucking and I just thought, pathetic fallacy or what. Yes, yeah, yep. Are you going to be okay for the next 20 minutes or so? Do you always try and lighten the load? Yes, can see you. I will, Eve. I can tell.

We need to cheer Eve up. Yeah. Yeah, because we need our young people to stay optimistic and positive. Because to be honest, we've completely cocked it up, love. So it is up to you. Oh, right, no pressure. We're going to be very, very nice to you, fully supportive of you. Thank you. Be gentle.

Yes, and make sure that you've got enough strength to turn it all around. Let's do some memorial benches. These are just so, so glorious. I want to start with Nathan first. I discovered your podcast on a BA plane earlier in the year We've got a captive audience there Have we? Especially on a very, very long haul flight You'll think, no, I won't listen to those two old Muppets

And somewhere over, I don't know, the Indian Ocean You probably are I've been listening to you ever since Your show has been such a comfort in my day-to-day life I lost a very dear friend four years ago And this was his memorial bench Inscribed with one of his famous phrases We paid just over £2,000 for this

in Soho Square, well that's cheap by comparison to the six grand that was the botanical gardens, wasn't it, in Edinburgh? Yes. Very high price. Morningside, you should be ashamed of yourselves. We paid just over £2,000 for this in Soho Square. As he was cremated, it's a place to go to remember him where he loved being, kindest wishes, Nathan.

And so the bench inscription says, Terry Russell, legend of Soho, and then underneath has the dates and then I'm going now you're boring me well Terry's a man after everybody's own heart because you don't want to get stuck on a bench with somebody whose life story is going to take

the whole afternoon or maybe you do this one comes in from Sonia saw this years ago through a scrolling session no idea who Barbara was or where her memorial bench is but speaking as someone who has to keep a few blood sugar sweets in her bag for emergency

I think she lives on. And the legend on this little plaque says for Barbara, who was awful when hungry, but otherwise pretty solid. I like that one. It's very, very nice, isn't it? Keep them coming. I know that there are a couple of Instagram accounts

that are doing this from, you know, all over the world. Well, I'll put some of the ones that we've had up on the Instagram. Yeah, let's start a new one of those. And also I think the fat pets one did genuinely cheer a lot of people up. And as we said, we need some joy. We certainly do. And Fiona says, dear Finn Jane, I always thought Charles Corrin was someone

who said things in a desperate bid to get attention and appear relevant. That's your own opinion, that, Fiona. But even by his standards, how could he sink so low as to criticise Memorial Benches? My absolute favourite park in London is Waterloo Park in Highgate,

bequeathed to the public by Sir Stanley Waterloo as a garden for the gardenless, which is just lovely. You can see how much it is loved by the rows of Memorial Benches, one very ordinary looking bench is dedicated to former Highgate resident George Michael, humble and understated

like the great man himself. The simple sentiment of providing a bench so that other people can enjoy a place that you loved so much is such a beautiful thing. I feel only sadness that this has passed Giles by. Well, he's in... Actually, he doesn't come into the building very often, does he? No.

He writes for the times he is the restaurant critic and columnist as well and he appears on Times Radio as well so we might just send him a little invitation inviting him to look at all of the beautiful inscriptions I'll send him a link to the Instagram

yeah when we've put a few up where would you have your bench well gosh that's a lovely question I would have it up on the old abandoned golf course in Hackney Marshes where we have spent at A so many lovely days

when the kids were absolutely tiny and it's where Nance and I go for our favourite, favourite walks and it's a little bit of let loose nature. Excuse me, that was incoming on my phone. That's very unprofessional. I will deal with it later. It's a little bit of wilderness, very, very close to the urban sprawl of London

and it's just blamming wonderful. But there aren't any formal benches there. Would you be the first? So I think, well, I think, as some of our previous correspondence have done I think I would just like a little quite secretive one Yeah

You know that somebody could Yeah someone could just go and hide it in the undergrowth somewhere And it would probably say You know Fia and Nancy were here And somewhere there are probably quite a lot of Nancy's poos That I haven't managed to find And I apologise for that

But I defy any dog owner You haven't picked up every single one Check your shoes as you leave the bench. Yes. Yeah. Well, because they... Well, anyway, I'll leave that one then. Nuclear Strength, Tube Sense. Our listeners are fabulous, Eve, aren't they? Yes.

On any given topic, somebody will come back and they are the expert on it. So this one comes in from Susie Nightingale, who is a fragrance journalist. Yes, it's a thing. And broadcaster, shout out for On the Scent podcast. And they've got a magazine launching... soon. My ears pricked up and my nose twitched at your conversation on today's episode.

Fragrance is booming and has been since lockdown which certainly surprised those who'd assumed that perfume was something we wore only when we were meeting other people or outdated sexist assumption alert to attract a male. The current fascination with fragrance and especially in younger people and young men in particular is linked with self-expression and confidence boosting. Though I agree some nuclear strength scents perhaps show a little too much. expression and confidence in a packed tube. So it might be partly down to people spraying more and a greater number of us wearing fragrance generally.

But there is also the fact that fragrance concentrations are getting stronger. Whereas we used to only have, in order of strength, colognes, odour toilettes, odour parfums, and then pure parfum, which paradoxically lasts longer, but doesn't always smell stronger. I had to really think about that, Eve. It's because it can stay closer to the same. skin rather than projecting to fill a whole tube carriage. I think I need to keep this email in my handbag just as a reference point for when I'm shopping for perfumes.

I think you do, yeah. So I think it's always worth splashing out for the actual perfume, isn't it? Got you. Otherwise it is just fading away. Now we're also offered intense variations of scents, often called extrates or more medievally sounding elixirs. So more people are wearing fragrance than ever. they're spraying more of them and scents are getting stronger,

but there is another factor, one particular ingredient, Ambroxen. Now, although this synthetic compound, I can test you all later, was created in the 1950s and long used in perfumery since then. Lately it has become massive in every sense of the word because not only does it add an ambery, woody warmth to fragrance, it also acts as a fixative. This is a lot, isn't it? boosting the projection and scent trail

it got very popular when Francis Curgeon his fragrance Baccarat Rouge 540 have you heard of that Yep have you Oh my gody I was about to go wow No

It became a best seller Many houses have since created similarly enormous smelling scents Often using vat loads of ambroxen To try and achieve a similar scent profile Wow So it is actually a thing. And I'm intrigued by that because there has been a particularly, in my case, offensive

smell that's emerged in the last five years or so. And maybe that is Baccarat Rouge 540. You know, that's very, very powerful. It's sort of like when you're in the pub or in our office and people start talking, so then people start talking louder to compete with the other people who are talking louder. So now everyone's got these really strong perfumes to battle. other people's strong perfumes and they're banging in with a massive a broxan

and it's making your nose twitch yes yeah no I don't like it I don't like it at all I'd like it to stop Susie ends by saying having said all of this and agreeing it can sometimes be a bit much I must admit I'm sometimes well often rather shall we say lavish with my fragrance

application not the nuclear strength ones but I do like to wear scent as a shield on some days that's interesting I'd like to know what Susie wears. Yes, get back in touch. I can feel that you might have to come on the program actually at at some point, Susie, we could put you out

as a Friday edition. And Susie says, I'd still rather smell a fragrance than many of the unsavory whiffs one can be assaulted with on the tube. I've seen people eat whole salamis. It's just horrible. Horrible, horrible image.

Or the horror of having one's face shoved into the armpit of someone who eschews deodorant. Now, on that point, I mean that, of course, that is a disgusting smell. I would rather be in the armpit of someone who's not used deodorant than have this horrible synthetic perfume. It really makes me feel unwell. But I also wonder if it's the rise of the scent

because everyone's packed into their worried they're sweating to they're overcompensating. I think so. And also, isn't it to do with the fact that certainly in younger generations it's all tied into that, I'm going to spend a bit more on what I think my generation would have thought of as luxurious items because you can't, there's no point you save them for a house even.

Yeah, well quite. I'm not the first to break it to you. But it's that idea, isn't it? That actually why not spend 35 quid on a really lovely perfume? Because, you know, your journey to a nice one-bedroom flat to start your property life out is just beyond you. So all of those things have just become so well marketed and shoved at you. and you're right.

If you smell that somebody's wearing perfume, then you're going to think, oh yeah, I must wear a lot of perfume. And they're doing it every day, aren't they? I would never have worn perfume to school, but I think a lot of kids now wear perfume to school. It just wouldn't have invented my head. You didn't have a, in secondary school,

we did all the kind of the body sprays. Oh, we had impulse, yeah. Okay. But I don't think we were wearing it in school. I think we saved all of that for the weekends. Oh, we absolutely doused us up. Those girls' changing rooms just smell foul in a sickly sweet way. Yeah. Did you, I'm not being funny and asking this question.

Did you have showers in your changing rooms at school? We did have showers, but we never used them. Isn't that weird? Because I was trying to explain this to my kids once, that we had showers, but they'd been locked, and we weren't allowed to go in there because I think some nefarious activities had taken place in the move. So we used to play quite a lot of sports at school,

and we didn't have showers. That's actually a very good point. And I think it was around that point that we realized we weren't allowed to use the showers that we just started forging notes from our parents to get out of pee. And also pee would always be in the morning. Then you'd stink the whole day.

I guess that sounds pleasant, isn't it? Yeah. But also we never carried around bottles of water. So we'd go and run around. I wouldn't run around. I'd just kind of flop around on the side of a lacrosse pitch. But nobody had hydration on their minds at all.

It's a very good point. How do we get through it, Eve? How did we? Tough time. made very tough times. Right, we don't want too many stories from the showers at school, please. It's not that type of show. Green tea and Bergmott in Mayfair.

This one comes in from Adrienne to Jane and Fee. I'm a 30-something South African living in Germany. Listening to the two of you has become my antidote to Teutonic stiffness. You recently mentioned the M&S disinfectant, developing something of a following. Well, I can confirm its reach now extends to Bavaria. I was in London. last week on business, on route to a client dinner in Mayfair, my colleague sensibly suggested stops at Fortnham and Mason and the like.

I, however, led a small but willing procession into M&S in pursuit of the now legendary green tea and Bergamont disinfectant. Once in the cleaning aisle, I was slightly overwhelmed by the variety of scents, here we go again, a novelty compared to Germany, and emerged not only with the disinfectant, but also a fabric conditioner and a multi-surface cleaner. I arrived at the rather swanky Mayfair restaurant, attempted to tuck the M&S bag discreetly under the table,

the Somelier promptly nudged it mid-conversation, sending its contents gently but unmistakably into view. There they lay, my collection of scented M&S cleaning products, whilst clients looked on with understandable confusion. At P.S. Back home, I had an M&S hot cross bun for dinner, another rare find in Germany. I finished the last of the butter and reached for a fresh block for a fleeting moment. I considered placing it straight into the butter dish, unwashed from the pre-steak.

previous block, but then I heard Jane's voice in my head. Do you know what, that can happen, actually, after a while, Adrienne. And, you know, it's tough. It is tough. We've got Wednesday off today, even. We're okay. So into the dishwasher, it went first. You should always carry Jane's voice around with you in your head,

because then you've got plenty of toilet roll in the bathroom. You never travelled too far afield. I wouldn't be too embarrassed if a bag of mine got knocked over and outrolled lots of MNS. You wouldn't be. embarrass. No, I'd be very very bright. I mean, it would say that life's turned out all right. Yes.

But we're not living in Bavaria. No, that's quite true. Actually, we're not having lunch in a Mayfair establishment with a sommelier. But, I mean, absolute props to Adrienne. You've done very well in life. Good for you. This one comes in from boarding school, Chris, who's currently on holiday with Veronica,

another boarding school pal. I think I remember all of these people. I'm reliving nightmares about it. day trip to the Isles of Silly. Four of us sailed forth on the ferry. Do you know what? The Isles of Silly are never going to sponsor this podcast, are they? But M&S might. They might, that's true.

Somebody wrote in describing that ferry as a vomit comet. So brilliant. Yeah, because I've always wanted to go, but I've been really put off. I've been very, very put off. Case and point. Chris says, four of us sailed forth on the ferry. It was early September. We were looking forward to this lovely aisle.

When we got there, the fog had set in. We decided to do a bus trip around the aisle and saw nothing except the outline of Harold Wilson's bungalow. Not a euphemism, Eve. Just had time for a cup of tea before heading back on that rocky ferry home. Not really a day to remember. If anyone's listening on the silly aisles, feel free to get in touch and we can redress the balance.

In defence of the silly aisles. What happens on the silly aisles? I know people do go there, obviously, to look at... Wilson's bungalow. But what else is there? That's what we need to know. That is what we need to know. I saw it.

There was an email in the box. Somebody got a helicopter over there. Yes. I think perhaps that's the way to do it. It may well be, yeah. Very swanky. Yeah, nobody seems to have had a nice time on this ferry. And it's a flat-bottomed boat, isn't it?

Which just, I mean, there's a reason why, yeah, there's a reason why ships have that thingy that goes down. What's that called? I don't know. come in the golden hind yeah we've exposed ourselves as proper land lubbers now are you a suede fan

is swayed a bit not a clue not a clue not a clue oh my sorry gosh enlighten me okay well I think swayed they were an important part of Britpop so obviously they were around at the same time as Oasis and Blur

what were their biggest here But they, fashion was a huge one. I can't sing that. No, you do not want me to do that. But they were a much more kind of, they weren't as macho and kind of, they probably would be described as cocky. They weren't as swaggering as some of the other people

on the scene at the time. And they were all quite lithe and rather androgynous. And I think if you didn't, them you'd say they were a bit fay but if you did like them you wouldn't tolerate that kind of language and this comes in it's entitled leaving my husband for Brett from Swade it comes in

from Alley who says greetings from Dorset it was fabulous to hear if you talk about her experience and interviewing Brett Anderson I completely understand we went to see Swade live in London and I remember standing next to my husband utterly transfixed by Brett and seriously considering that I would leave the hubby

if Brett just reached his hand out to me turns out my husband was having the same thought just with the added complication of questioning his sexuality. The moment passed and we're still together 20-something years later. And Richard Osmond's brother, Matt, was in the band and Bernard Butler was in the band. Have you heard of Bernard Butler? McAllmonton Butler? I'm going to park this conversation here.

Let's pick this one up with Jane. Although I'm just Googling Brett now. Okay. So you should be a sharp features. Very sharp. Do you see what I mean? Very high cheekbones. And very, oh, I don't know, just super sexy on the spectrum of sexy.

Yeah. Although in his kind of older age now, how to talk about men like this, if I don't know. What's happened? Yes. I'm the producer and I say yes. Okay, good. He sort of looks like he could lead a detective show now. Oh, does he? Yes. That's interesting. Hang on a sec. I haven't.

Let's just, this is great audio, isn't it? Well, we both just look at men on phones. Oh, I see what you mean. Sort of leaning up against a car and a jacket. Oh, he absolutely could. He could be in the next series of grace, couldn't he? Somewhere around Brighton. He's absolutely hunting people down.

He's had a troubled time, hasn't he? He made his way almost up the ranks to DCI, but I think something dreadful happens. That's a drinking problem, essentially. But he's, of course, he's a bit of a maverick, and he uses his own unique personality in order to push the investigation forward. I think he's been in an long-term relationship.

Yeah, but it hasn't quite worked out, but he's still got yearnings for her. That kind of thing. Maybe a child that he's trying to repatch a relationship with. Excellent detail. What car would he be driving as well? Would it be a... I'm quite bored of the classic car.

That's such a trope, isn't it, in the detective scenes? I think he is leaning up against a classic car that he's leaning up against in that photo. It is. You're absolutely right. It looks like a very old kind of fiat that would cost about 75 grand. He does look like he'd suit a classic car. Yeah. He's got the swag about him.

But wouldn't it be lovely if somebody did create a TV detective series where they just hopped into a fiat ponto? I'm not sure what they're like in a car chase. Well, I think they'd be very nippy and quite... A panda. I think they'd be discreet, wouldn't they? Yes. Because everyone's going to, you know, if you're driving around,

in your classic Saab or whatever it is. I think the Saab belongs to Rebus, doesn't it, in Rankin's novels. He drives an old Saab. And obviously, Morse had his old Jaguar.

Do you know what? I might re-investigate the fabulous Susie Steiner novels and see what Mann and Bradshaw drove around in. Because I've got a slight recollection that it is something really boring,

like a Ford Focus. If you're tailing someone and they look out their rearview mirror and just see a polo, they're not going to think anything of it. Well, exactly. And if they see some kind of classic Ferrari nonsense, they're going to remember that, aren't they? It's a flaw in their plan.

It truly is. Yeah, we've cracked it. Who's going to be our guest today? I know, I should know. Thangham Debenair. Oh, excellent. So Thangham Debener, former Labour MP, now Labour, peer, and she is coming on because she is chairing the women's

for non-fiction this year. So plenty to talk to her about. I wasn't asking because I genuinely couldn't remember who we were talking to at 3.30 on the programme today, but we've got a very exciting 4pm pre-record, as we do in the trade, which is with John Batiste, who is just a remarkable musician.

I think he's one of the most remarkable musicians of his time, and he is coming to London to do a four-night residency at Coco, which is quite a swanky club in Keemden Town. And he's got plenty to say. Politics really kind of pushes his music forward. But he's also one of those musicians who can just do everything. So he's written a symphony.

He's in jazz. He's won R&B Grammys. I think he's got like eight Grammys or something. He's just a phenomenon. And I didn't watch the American Symphony. It's a movie that was made on Netflix until I knew that he was coming on the show. And it's incredible, Eve,

because it was commissioned as a film just to detail him writing, a modern symphony, that would then be performed at Carnegie Hall, which was enough of a reason to do the film in and of itself. But his wife, Salika, had to have her second bone marrow transplant for leukemia

just as he was starting to put the symphony together. So it's a movie about trying to stay, on the rails for both of them during such a very, very difficult time and it's remarkable. I really, really recommend it. I mean, it is not a movie to watch without a box of tissues next to you,

but Salika gets through it and the symphony gets written, so I just put those two things in there. But it really makes you think about how difficult it is for the partners of people who are very, very ill to keep going with what the world is asking of them.

And there's so much else in the film, obviously. And Salika's journey is incredibly hard herself. She's a writer and then turns to painting because her vision got very blurred so she couldn't actually see to write. So I'm recognising all of that. But actually, I think sometimes we don't give enough time, energy and love to the people who are carrying on going

and to try and write a symphony carry on that level of creativity whilst all of that is happening. It also really busts that myth and we talked about this a bit before, haven't we? That, you know, intense creativity can sometimes be helped by pain. Yeah.

It's quite hard to see through the fog of everything that's kind of going on immediately around you and you've got to find that golden thread and everyone's expecting you to. Hugely Eve. And you've got to find the golden, thread and that's exactly it, you know, that is then going to last forever. You're laying down a piece of music that is in, you know, it's a peak of your career. It's the culmination of something

absolutely enormous. And you're trying to find all those bits and pieces while your, you know, beautiful, lovely wife is going through the darkest of times. As well with the, I mean, the thing that's going on with Chapel Rhone at the moment. Have you seen that? Well, do you want to inform our audience because I think you would do a better job. So she was performing at a festival called Lola Paluzza in Brazil. She was having breakfast in her hotel when a young fan walks past her, an 11-year-old girl, and just smiles. Allegedly Chappell then sends her security over to reprimand the girl, apparently threatens her, basically tells her to leave Chappell Rhone alone, which left the girl in tears. And it transpires that.

her stepdad is a very famous football player, a Brazilian football player who used to play for Arsenal and Chelsea, and her biological dad is Jude Law, and her mum's an actress. So naturally this just travels far and wide to the point where the mayor of Rio de Janeiro has even got involved and banned Chapel Rhone from playing in the city in the future. Chapel Rhone previously has been very big on boundaries

when it comes to the press, and it created this whole massive discourse on where boundaries lie and how much you're asking for fame and whether, you know, fair enough if there's a paparazzi in your face, but if it's an 11-year-old girl at breakfast and it's her dream to just say hello to you, should that not be allowed? And my point more with John Batiste is that that boundary,

there's an expectation in your fan base for you to be on good form and be open and that you owe them something. and we're going through something like that with your wife and you're supposed to turn up with a mega-watt smile where that line is. I know exactly what you mean. Our expectation of people who give us pleasure through their work is just, I think, often too high

and very unforgiving, very, very unforgiving. And the chapel rowing thing's interesting because when she first kind of went off on one and said, don't come near me when I'm not on stage. You know, our relationship, if you're my fan, is you're in the audience and I'm on stage and that's what we both signed up to and I'm not interested in anything else that's going on.

I did think good for you. Actually, good for you. But it blurs for me all of the time when people... Do you know what really blurred it for me? It's when she hung her dress off her nipples. Yes. And that's only because

I think she's inviting something a bit more from her audience and from the public in terms of shock or outrage or recognition or focus than just singing, not just, but singing amazing songs on stage. Yeah. So then I get confused.

There's so much more to it than just the songs. I've got no answer at all. I guess it's quite a personal boundary that you decide to set, but I don't know, when you are asking something of your fans, which is to kind of engage with this whole brand, where do you then say,

stop, you can't engage with it anymore because I'm having some cheer pudding for breakfast. But I wonder whether you can be a very successful, let's just say, musician these days and never step off the stage in public. So just not go to the ceremonies, not walk a red carpet, not do the public appearances,

not have any social media accounts. I don't think you can do that anymore because that's actually where meeting your audience is, isn't it? Yeah, I think particularly with social media, I mean, I've seen her on TikTok. She'll kind of set her phone up just on her desk in her bedroom and just kind of chat about whatever thought comes to her mind. And, I mean, I agree that she's allowed to have boundaries.

But I think when you do that as well, you're making your fans feel like they're on FaceTime to you. And it is confusing. Because then you would think, oh, I really know that person. I really, really know that person. So I'll just pop over and say hello. It's not like she's only engaging with fans when she's in her full costume and makeup and everything. She does also engage with them when she's out of it.

So then you see her and you think that's that star that I love. And I think for an 11-year-old girl, it's tricky. It's very tricky. Very, very tricky, yep. I mean, you know, as Jane was saying on the podcast yesterday, if you bump into us, you're very, very welcome to say hello to Jane. I don't talk to my public, even. He leaves hair in hoodie and big black sunglasses.

As I've said before, my most kind of sociable activity is swimming, and that's the one time when I don't have my classes on. I've got no idea who's saying hello to me. It may be, you know, maybe somebody I was at school with. You may be actually one of my closest friends. You might be a former husband. I can't tell. Do you want a photo?

I just can't tell. So you're pretty much guaranteed a hello back, so I just don't want to appear rude. Keep all of your beautiful, lovely, fantastic photographs of benches coming. We are Jane and Fee at times.org. dot radio. I think we might have got to the end of the vomit stories from the Isles of City, but we'd love to know a little bit more about the destination. And John Batiste, when are we going to put that out? He's actually going out next Tuesday. Next Tuesday, you'll be able to hear our interview with John Battiste. And here is our guest of the day. It is Baroness Debenair, Thangham Debenair.

How can art change your physical health? How one hotel tells the story of Afghanistan. How a brother and sisters' artistic talents cause Holyoke-style friction in their lifetimes and a divided legacy in death. These are just some of the themes of the books on the shortlist for the Women's Prize for Non-Fiction this year. It is a fabulous selection of writing.

Chair of Judges is Baroness Debenair, Fangham Debenair, former Labour MP, and now Labour Peer and CEO of UK Opera Association. That's worth knowing ahead of hearing this chat, which we recorded a little earlier today. And it started, with a question about women in the non-fiction world of publishing, are they being given the same opportunity as the blokes?

I mean, the publishing industry is definitely giving us more. And so, for instance, if you pick two categories, popular science and philosophy, women's published writing in both those categories has gone up over the last five, ten years, quite considerably. We're at, I think, 22%, something like that in popular science. I mean, that's quite a jump. however, it's still the minority.

And I think that part of the reason for the increase is the increased attention. The increased number of women recognised as experts in their field across all areas of public and professional life. So there's just more women who will get book deals. And also, and I possibly would say this, wouldn't I? I think that the Women's Prize per se,

women's price of fiction, of course, originally for so many years. And then more recently, the Women's Prize for Nonfiction, it has an impact because it's shining a light on what tends to happen, even now, if you walk into many a bookshop and you look at the nonfiction section, and I do it all the time, and you count the number of women and you count the number of men, it's not hard to guess, you know, it's mostly men still, but it's better. And I've been counting since well before my involvement with the Women's Prize for nonfiction, and I've been counting for years.

So I know just very empirically and experientially it's gone up, but also some of the data that we've had recently published shows that it is so. It's on the increase, but we're still in the minority, and in some notable categories, very much in the minority. Yeah. We will talk about the individual books, of course, so please, dear listeners, don't worry about that. But just one other question about the book sales themselves, it has always been the case that women will read male fiction in a way that men don't

read female fiction and I wonder whether or not that's the same for nonfiction. What's really interesting about that, about who reads what, is that women are much more likely to read nonfiction by women. So one thing I would say to my dear friends and colleagues in the publishing industry is publish more books by the brilliant women. It doesn't mean publish books that aren't any good. It means look around, realize that there are some fantastic women who are brilliant writers and experts in their field. Publish more books. books and guess what, you will sell more books because there are a lot of women out there who are currently

more likely to buy a book if it's by a woman than by a man, and we just don't yet have, I think, our equal, our fair share of publishing on the non-fiction side. In the non-fiction category, the spectrum is just glorious, isn't it? So, we're going to start with the finest hotel

in Kabul, a people's history of Afghanistan by Lee Doucette. regular listeners to our show and the podcast will know that we talk to Lees about this book. It's a very clever concept, isn't it? Because although it is non-fiction and it's talking about a particular hotel using that as the lens for history, she brings it to life in sometimes an almost fictional way. I think what Lees does so well in this book is use a literary device. Using a hotel as a literary device is fantastic.

I mean, you know, films can do it as well, and they often do. And I think books doing it is brilliant because you can bring characters on and off stage and still have an overarching narrative thread, which she does. And it's told so well, partly because Lisa is a brilliant teller of stories. She's been a fantastic journalist in our ears for so many years through so many conflicts, and she is even now probably somewhere on the airwaves somewhere talking about a conflict. And what she does so well in this story is pull together such a span of the existence and the history

and the lives being lived in a country which for many people remains just it's a country far away we sent troops there 20 odd years ago it was a mess when we came out and it must be awful for women which is true but what Lee's does is she tells that story in a much in a way which gives Afghanistan people the people of Afghanistan

agency and voice and also everybody just loves a hotel Everyone loves a hotel It's such a great device It just is And she tells it You know Through the staff that work there

But also the people who come in and out And because it was It was and remains I believe A very important hotel For the journalists Covering the many stories of Afghanistan I kind of I love the way that Lees actually

She does appear in the book But in the third person Yeah she's I think she's the last person To want to put herself At the centre of the story It's brilliant It's the secret of her great journalism

art cure, the science of how the arts transform our health by Daisy Fancourt. Now, if you are suffering from a little bit of, oh my goodness, where do I go to find joy in the world, make myself feel good, make myself feel better, this is a book for you. Oh, it absolutely is. I mean, I'm really sorry, listeners, and I'm going to keep saying brilliant because I think every single one of these books is brilliant. What this one is so brilliant at is if you've ever experienced the joy of going to an art gallery, being at the cinema,

watching a fantastic play live on stage with other human beings in the room, being in an orchestral concert or in any number of places where you are experiencing in different forms of art, you probably already knew this empirically inside you, but here we are

with Daisy Fancourt producing a fantastic piece of science. It provides us with really good, well-grounded, well-argued scientific evidence for what the various benefits are and that some of them were unexpected to me and I spent my life in performing arts in particular in arts and culture in general

and yet I was still like, that is really interesting. Many people I think will assume when they hear that it's about the evidence of the health benefits for arts and culture will think that's going to be mostly mental health and brilliantly what she does is pick out actually other benefits that we may not have thought of.

I think for instance, looking at the benefits of dance, for example, where she says if you compare dance with physiotherapy for people with injuries to recover from, it's more effective, and I think there's multiple reasons why it would. And then when you think about it, well, of course it is, it's more enjoyable, therefore you'll probably do more of it. But instead of it just being, I think this is probably so therefore it is,

we can now, those of us in performing arts, arts and culture, including literature, can point to something and go, see, there is proof. Art actually is good for you. not in and of itself a reason to go do it, but it is a reason to start thinking about how we value arts and culture. And I would say this wouldn't I, but as a political actor, I've got to say that's got to include thinking about how we pay for social prescribing. Because a lot of what Daisy Fancourt's talking about is available now through social prescribing, and very often it won't be

properly recompense for the people providing it. I'm quite happy to talk about the political side of your life, Baroness, W. Because, I mean, you're in the Lords as a Labour peer. to kind of help give voice to their cultural strategy. And I wonder whether, you know, when you read a book like this, how do you then make sure that some of what it talks about and the evidence that it presents does get back into policy? I mean, I hope that the publishers send this not just to culture, arts and culture ministers,

and not just in Westminster, but also, you know, in Holyrood, in Cardiff, in Northern Ireland. I'd like them to remember that it's actually for health. ministers. It is for health policy makers. It's for education ministers. It's for the employment ministers, actually, because there's a hell of a lot of jobs involved in this. I think it's really, really valuable. I've not seen anything quite like it for giving the evidence, but also, importantly, for the Women's Prize, it's a beautiful piece of writing. Yet again, it's well told. And there are stories in there to illustrate the evidence

brilliantly told. We are going to come back just for a quick question about opera because I cannot not ask you about Timothy Shalamay's comments, so hold that, hold that in our heads as we go to number three. This is by Judith McRour artist siblings' visionaries, the lives and loves of Gwen and Augustus John. Now this sounds like a kind of family epic that you could then see on Channel 5 maybe at a time of your choosing in the afternoons. Tell us a bit more.

Well, it would make a great film. I mean, or docuseries or something. I mean, I actually, I'm hoping that it goes straight to screen somewhere because it's a brilliant story of sibling rivalry, of sibling passions and fallings out and arguments, but she doesn't do that at the expense of really good, rigorous art criticism. So her exploration of how both those careers developed and the supreme irony of the fact that during his lifetime, it was Augustus John that was the famous one.

And actually now when you look at their outputs of, work, it's clear that Gwen John was really arguably the better artist, or at least equivalent. And there is an exhibition on at my local art gallery, the National Museum of Wales in Cardiff, of Gwen John's work. And having read this book, many times now, as I have all the books on the short list, it gave me an added passion to see the exhibition. So I encourage people to do that and to link back perhaps to one of the other books, art cure, the therapeutic effect of looking at works of art added to the benefit of having read

this book and really getting under the skin of who Gwen John was and her relationship to Augustus John, is just brilliant. It multiplies the effect. Again, fantastic stories, brilliantly told, some quite punchy writing in places where you think, wow, that's really, really interesting because it also gives you a window into the lives of young artists from really quite modest backgrounds at the beginning of the 20th century and what it was like to break into that world, which in turn gives you a bit of social history. Plus, they were unconventional, both of them.

Excellent. Hotel Exile Paris and the Shadow of War by Jane Ragoyska. It's not the same kind of thing as the intercontinental hotel that Leicest-Sat's writing about, but it is about war, isn't it? There are some parallels, and yet it's a very different tale. So again, Jane Ragoisca does use a hotel as a vehicle, but not in quite the same way.

She uses it more as a vehicle because it literally was the place. Jewish people who survived the camps, which wasn't many, came to the Hotel Lutisha after the war. Jewish refugees before the war who were escaping Nazi Germany and she talked particularly about those people

in politics, literature, philosophy, arts, who came there to meet, to discuss, to plan. And there's some really quite sad episodes where some of them are meeting to try and discuss what they think is going to be a successful sort of outpouring of resistance against Hitler and the Nazis, and of course isn't.

But then the ways it was used by the Nazis during the war is also just fascinating. And she uses it as a jumping off point to tell the tales of those people who came in and out of the hotel. It's often a tale of imaginable loss, both to the individuals, but also to us. Because she focuses so heavily on people from arts and culture and politics and philosophy and the loss of those lives, and so many of her characters do end up in the camps and don't survive or come to other very unhappy ends, it is quite powerful to feel that loss

in the way that she's telling the story, but it's also a superbly written piece of history in what could look like quite a crowded field, Paris in the war, but it's actually, it takes that apart and it looks very particularly at the effect of the war and exile on particularly Jewish, refugees. Yeah, and a good book to read

in the Now, isn't it? It's so it's got so much that's relevant for the Now. Mother Mary comes to me by Arundati Roy. Now tell me about this. Well, Aaron Dati Roy is, of course, a novelist. And if you've ever read the God of Small Things and I think quite possibly quite a lot of your readers will, your listeners will have read

that book. It explains a lot. So there's a bit of if you haven't read God of Small Things, maybe do that first. But I think you don't need to. You could read this book, it's a memoir, but it's an expiration of a mother-daughter relationship. It's an exploration of what it's like. It was like for a feisty young woman to make her own way in the world in India, in intellectual circles, in artistic circles, beyond India, and to be involved in politics.

Because of course, Arandati Roy, after writing The Goddess Small Thing, spends most of the following two decades being an activist and a non-fiction writer. So reading her memoir, which is unflinching, but also never self-pitying, even when she's obviously going through some very difficult times. She doesn't tell it in a self-pitying way. She tells it in a really strong, compelling narrative. And yes, it unlocks the secrets of some of the god of small things. Yeah, it's interesting that this is published now

because so many writers are advised, don't they, to write their memoir first, to put their own life on the page before they then start writing fiction. So it's a lovely turnaround in that respect. It is. And I think, although we obviously do have memoir on the list, including this one, I think what's been wonderful about the books on the short list that are also memoir, is that they aren't just memoir. They are taking that art form as a vehicle, that genre as a vehicle, to tell about other things in which they are also expert.

Nation of Strangers, Rebuilding Home in the 21st Century by Eke Temel-Kuron. Now, that sounds fantastic. It's beautiful. It's a beautifully told set of stories in many ways, but it's also the story of the author's journey as a migrant. And again, very timely, sadly, because it forces you when you're reading it. You get engrossed in the story because she tells a tale brilliantly,

but you are forced to confront what may be, even your own prejudices, which you may not even think you have about migration, about what it's like to be a migrant. and about the dehumanisation of the many bureaucratic processes that someone has to go through, even in a country that appears on the surface to be very welcoming of people from another country.

Even countries that say that they're welcoming of refugees, fleeing war and conflict, is challenging. And I think, again, this is a book which has relevance for policymakers, as well as being a wonderful, beautiful, sometimes heartbreaking, piece of writing, which is memoir, but takes on the subject of migration, which is very, very now. And it's always so important, isn't it,

to try and understand an individual story before you try and understand a massive policy. And, I mean, it's interesting that you say, you know, we are a country that's welcoming because I think a lot of people would feel that that is actually not exactly what we're sending out as a message anymore. It's interesting that you should say that fee,

because I don't think I did say we are a country that's welcoming. I said it's about countries that say they are welcoming. Well, that's a very interesting thing to pick up for. And I was quite careful about that for a reason. And again, as a political actor, I think that's one of the reasons why I challenge people to read it. Because although she is in Britain some of the time, I think we are at a time when an awful lot of countries

and an awful lot of policymakers, awful lot of politicians, who would present themselves as of being progressive, having progressive values, seem to have absorbed the idea that the only way you can get ahead in modern politics is by being at best tough, shall we say, on migration. And I think that undermines our own countries,

but other countries as well, messages on being a welcoming place for people fleeing war and conflict. Because in my view, there shouldn't be any but in that sentence, and that's what the Eché Telmochern book does, is it doesn't allow you to say, well, we're welcoming, but on the other hand, there's a limit, or we should be careful,

or we need to put our own people first. One of the things she does brilliantly is actually challenge a lot of those assumptions and say, well, first of all, are you really welcoming? Second of all, why are we making these distinctions? Why are we not also viewing the value, the enormous value, that people who are migrating to another country

make to the country that they go to and always have. Why are we not actually saying our policies need to reflect that valuing? Why are we not reflecting the fact that most of us? I mean, northern European countries, America, the United Kingdom, we are countries whose histories are built on migration. So you sit in the House of Lords now. If you were sitting in the House of Commons on the front bench, would you be able to have said all of that?

Would you be advised to maybe then temperate with something else? Well, I can't say. I mean, I'm a bat bencher in the House of Lords. I'm not on the front bench in the House of Commons. And I think my colleagues are doing their best in difficult circumstances. But I'm presenting my view here, and I'm presenting it as chair of the Women's Prize for Nonfiction, which is that this book, I think, for my colleagues in the world of politics, for the public. And after all, politicians try their best to reflect the views of the public.

And I think there is a range of views in the public. often think perhaps we need to be listening to the public more because what I hear very often from people of all sorts of backgrounds is a valuing of our history and are wanting to understand it more and I think this book gives you a way into understanding how important migration is told through a beautifully told story and if I was on the front bench I hope that I would you are also the CEO of the UK Opera Association and I'm going to return to the comments

recently made by Timothy Shalame, who basically said that opera had kind of died. It was just over it. It had had its day, and it wasn't really very relevant. I mean, there was immediately, I think, if you're from the operatic community, a very heartening backlash against that. But when you saw that, what did you think?

Well, my first thought, and it's partly in my political background, is I thought, don't react to something that's an absolute wind-up, and you just give it more publicity. And it didn't seem to do hear any favours, either in the immediate sort of response to his comments or in the Oscars. I don't think he won an Oscar, did he? So, you know, I don't think it proved to be the good luck charm

he might have thought it was. First of all, the thing was it just wasn't true. I mean, opera and ballet are very much still with us. And the art form that is ballet actually, let's widen it out into dance. Dance is in so many people's lives in so many different ways. And, you know, I'm on the board of Sadler's Wells, for instance, and I know that the range of dance that we put on

that to packed houses very often but also people who you might not expect of being in a theatre watching live dance and live ballet is extraordinary and it's thriving and it's developing and it's taking on new forms that wouldn't have existed even 50 years ago. Opera similarly, the sheer range of work

that's happening in opera is extraordinary and I think he was acting for his own reasons and actually I think we're quite strong in art forms we are art forms for the 21st century opera and ballet and dance we are telling new tales all the time we are finding new ways to tell old tales we're also finding surprising resonances from some of the classics just as you do in literature sometimes the classics actually remind you of things that are still true so i hope he comes to an opera or a ballet i think he might find it surprises him but also we're very much

alive and kicking we we welcome audiences from all backgrounds people often say oh it's so expensive when actually when I look at the price of opera it's it's incredibly competitive and we almost all opera houses have really good sort of entry level prices i know this is my advertising pitch for opera but i'd say don't knock it till you tried it timothy well i paid uh 22 pounds 50 to go and see marty supreme and i'd like at least half for that back i couldn't possibly comment thangham debonair and both prizes the women's Prize for fiction and for nonfiction will be announced on the 11th of June. I haven't got anything else to say. No, me neither.

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