Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Narcissism of small differences

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

From the Poo Museum to Freud, enjoy the meandering journey of this episode's conversation. Jane and Fi also discuss chaff, Romantasy, and property shows. Plus, the executive director of PEN Ukraine, Tetyana Teren, discusses the work of her late friend Victoria Amelina and Victoria’s book 'Looking at Women, Looking at War'. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well it's basically it's man-bance Lycra isn't it? Yes it is. No I'm not sure the nation needs to see me in Lycra. It is, it's sweat and chat isn't it? That's what their USP is. And chafing. Chafing and chat? Come on that's brilliant.

We've done it again. Come on, what's wrong with you? The train is now approaching. Junction at platform. Passengers. Airport police stay on board. Next stop, road station. iOS helps you control which apps you share your exact location with.

There's more to iPhone. Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack, fire damage, theft, or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches, and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at ZenSurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. Just an apology first. This one is headlined Poo Museum and it's from Louise. Dear Jane

Phee and the ever patient Eve. Well, I suppose she is patient isn't she? Very! Yeah. I do love you but before your podcast goes down the pan says Louise, check your facts. The Poo Museum was actually in Sandown on the Isle of Wight, it was never in Sandwich. Very popular it was too apparently. Although slight confusion as an islander, sorry, Ovener, I haven't lived here long enough to be an islander, she says. I haven't got round to visiting it before it went off on tour.

I quite enjoy your daily offerings and really hope to get to one of your shows one of these days. Well, Louise, my apologies, sorry, that was entirely on me. The Poo Museum was, of course, in Sandown on the Isle of Wight. Of course. Of course. You won't bury Radio 4 there. Of course. It is of course the Archbishop of Deal.

I was going to say Canterbury, but you just can't go there at the moment. So there isn't an Archbishop of Deal, don't worry about that. I'd just like to say thank you to Mini B, who sent a beautiful picture of Andy Oliver, plus glasses chain, plus bosom, because Andy Oliver likes to wear her glasses on one of those chains around her neck. And she can do that? She can do anything and she just looks so

beautiful and statuesque with hers on. Mine didn't have the same effect. They just didn't have the same effect. I'm sorry, I don't know why. I'm sure yours look lovely. No, they didn't. No, Andy can just, she can carry it off and I can't. So many of you have said thank you for talking about vertigo and so many people are suffering from it too. So a lot of people have had exactly the manoeuvre that we were talking about yesterday, which is the Epley manoeuvre which you can go along and have privately with a physio but you can also get it done on the NHS, your GP should be able to do it too. The condition is known as BPPV, benign paroxysmal postural vertigo. Sometimes you're grateful in life for an acronym aren't you? God, you really are.

Yeah. Sophie is just one of those who have pointed out that 80% of people who suffer with this are postmenopausal women so you're not alone but a neurovestibular physio could well be the answer for you. So she went along to have her problems diagnosed and went to see a specialist physio privately but says it was well worth it, it was 150 quid. So. But it worked. Yes, don't take it all lightly sisters. Get thee to a doctor.

Yeah, definitely. Now, this is Robin who says, I'm writing in, I was listening to the pod last week. You said you'd like to hear from somebody who had bought their house on a property show. Yes. And I'm really delighted to get this email. So thanks, Robin. I'm thrilled delighted to get this email. So thanks Robin.

I'm thrilled to be able to respond, says Robin, because we bought a flat, our flat, a couple of years ago with the help of Kirsty Phil and the production team at Location. Location. Location. Thank you. Although Robin, because she's familiar with it, just calls it Location. I think you could. And that's what thespians do, isn't it, when they're sort of in a touring production of, what would it be, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, they just probably call it... Seven? Yeah. That would be unfortunate because that's a really, really different plot in the film, isn't it? But there is, you know what I mean, there is a kind of, it's a slight affectation. Yeah, but it's like that terrible, it's like calling

the world at one Watto. Oh yeah, you're right. I don't like that. We've a slight affectation. Yeah, but it's like that terrible, it's like calling the world at one Watto. Oh yeah, you're right. I don't like that. We've been guilty of that. Well, not us personally. I can't recommend the experience highly enough. We're back with Robin now. As first-time buyers with no family close by, viewing flats was a bit of a nightmare. We didn't know where to look, what to look for, etc. etc. Going on the show eliminated a lot of unknowns. A month out out we told the

production team the areas we were keen on and what our budget was and then they put together a short list of properties for us to look at. On the filming days we were taken to various flats and houses and spoke at length to Kirsty and the production team about each. All our questions were answered thoughtfully and they genuinely seemed motivated by finding us somewhere to live where we'd be happy. Now I'm not naive, obviously the overarching purpose of the exercise is to make good TV, but it felt like by doing a really good job of meeting our asks property-wise and allowing us to be ourselves when being filmed, that good

TV would just emerge organically. There was no pressure on us to buy, but we happened to find somewhere in the perfect area at a good price, further negotiated down by Kirsty." Brilliant. Sounds a very positive experience, doesn't it? Well, how good to know that, Jane, because more and more you find yourself watching television through a prism of cynicism, don't you? Just waiting for one of the tabloids to tell you what it's really like. And actually actually I've never heard anything bad about location location location or about home counties man crumpet Phil Spencer it's very good sorry that was an appreciative giggle for me there because he is a nice chap

Robin says others may have had totally different and even negative experiences on similar shows but for us it was well worth the effort, even if my wife did embarrass herself by humming the Coronation Street theme tune on national television. Well, why is that embarrassing? I don't know. No, I wouldn't be embarrassed by that Robin. Crikey. Anyway, really glad that's worked out for you both and just a nice, positive experience.

And we, you you know there's so much negativity in the world. Oh there is isn't there? Yeah so let's just hear it for what happened there. Brilliant. So you and I will carry on indulging in love it or list it or what did you want to call it? Hang on in there or shove off. Stay put or shove off. That is Jane's more down market version which will be available on Channel 5. Not that Channel 5 is down market. Be very careful what you say. I want to take that back actually.

Future employers Channel 5, always hopeful. I think what we should do though sometime in the course of the next year or so, we should put together a programme pitch, Jane, for two women going off on some kind of a travelogue together. And we should genuinely send it off to all of the commissioning editors. Yeah, to see what happens. And see what response we get, because the latest travelogue thing that I have seen, now I think you noticed the David Baddiel and Hugh Dennis one, they're off on biticles

together somewhere. Yeah, they're cycling around France. And then somebody else was going on a solo trip around Australia. Some man comic was doing an Australian adventure. I'll look that up while you're talking. We could travel, why don't we just set our sights not too ambitious. We'll go around London, I'll use my travel pass. So I'll get round for free.

You'll have to cough up. I'll have my travel pass so I'll get round for free. You'll have to cough up. I'll have to pay. Maybe if we got a good production company they'd pay for you. Well maybe. But I'd be a really cheap hire because I wouldn't cost anything. Well why don't you take the tubes with your freedom pass and I will cycle for free. Oh yeah, okay.

And we'll see who has the better experience. I tell you what, the views aren't going to be great for you until you bob up on the district line. It's going to be a pretty dull program. Just penned those images of me. No, I think we just need to invite our lovely listeners. What mode of transport would you like us to take? Where would you like us to go?

Don't say tandem. No, not a tandem. Please God. And you know, what's the shtick? Although to be honest, I mean I'd like to see the imagined content in the pitch for all of these, you know, man adventure programmes. Because they're all the same, aren't they? Well it's basically, it's man-bance lycra, isn't it? Yes, it is. I'm not sure the nation needs to see me in lycra.

It is, it's sweat and chat, isn't it? That's what their US it is. No, I'm not sure the nation needs to see me in Lycra. It is, it's Sweat and Chat, isn't it? That's what their USP is. And Chafing. Chafing Chat? Come on, that's brilliant. We've done it again. Come on, what's wrong with you? Get on board with it. So, let's see what comes up and then we'll ask ChatGPT, because Eve's a bit tired, to write us a commissioning document and we'll send it off and we will tell you genuinely

what the response is from the commissioning editors. Greetings from Katerina, a devoted listener in Bavaria. Did you ever think it would come to this? I'm delighted it has. Absolutely brilliant. I just listened to your podcast that included the little boy Nigel who wore a nose warmer to school. While I myself could never imagine wearing one without going bonkers or dying of shame, I think he might have missed a potential perspective here. His mum may well have been blameless. Sometimes kids ask for very specific things that would never have occurred to anyone else.

Some of my kids' ideas seemed unbelievably daft to me, whereas they considered them next level brilliant. So maybe this little boy thought that his nose needed to be warmer and he may have been convinced he'd come up with the most mind-blowing concept for keeping his nose warm and all the other kids would envy him. Then he begged his mum to make him one. Perhaps he even had a sketch for guidance. Dreamt of having his idea patented. Basked in the anticipated glory. Surely I'm not the only mum who tried to gently advise her offspring that their fashion choices might not be greeted with universal admiration.

Nigel's mum could well have been plagued by similar doubts, but instead of giving in to them, she made the choice to support her child, or resigned and figured he needed to make his own mistakes. I think it's a beautiful point to make, Katerina, and you're absolutely right. I mean, Nigel may have sketched that out at home, he may have nagged his mum into oblivion to actually make it for him, and he may have strode into that playground absolutely convinced that he would be essentially the creator in his generation of the leg warmer for noses. Yeah and look, our correspondent never forgot him.

No? So I think job done. Absolutely. And having seen Nigel's visage or what we think is Nigel's visage, I'm still thinking about him too. If that is indeed Nigel, he has aged terribly well. It's a very good point that Katarina makes there about mums or dads just indulging their children's sartorial choices because children do make daft decisions and some battles are just not worth fighting. If my children wanted to go to the park in their pajamas in the end why not? Yep, just let them.

It just doesn't really matter. Obviously if they should have been at school then that's completely different but if it was just one of those endless days during a half term when you know they wanted to show everybody their postman-packed pajama top so what? Yeah. I mean she was 17, but there you go. That's life for you. And also sometimes kids do get really stuck on one thing that makes them comfortable.

So, you know, they want to dress up as a certain character for years, and it's just because they feel comfortable doing it. There's no point trying to prise them out of it. I'd like to come to work dressed as a character, I think, Jane. Well you're not going to start identifying as an alpaca, are you? That was the front page of The Sun yesterday, wasn't it? Was it The Sun or the Mirror? I think it was The Sun. Okay, because a person in politics declared that she wanted to identify as a llama, and that's the kind of put-down, isn't't it when you don't want to believe in other people's self-identification as something other

than heteronormative but it was quite funny to see it there because it does feel like the alpacas and llamas are coming ever closer Jane. Now I heard you. They are coming closer, we're talking about them a lot. But I heard yesterday Matthew Paris was on Times Radio and he I think he's an alpaca owner. Yes. And he says alpacas' greatest enemies are llamas. They can't stand them. I didn't realize that. No, I didn't realize that. So there's a real enmity in the alpaca llama community.

They do not get on at all. Apparently you cannot keep both. It just wouldn't happen. Which just seems so strange, doesn't it? It does to us, but you know. Because you think that they are almost one and the same but maybe it is Freud's narcissism of small difference. The idea that something that looks a little bit like you but isn't you is more offensive than something or someone who really isn't like you at all. Just say that phrase

again please. The narcissism of small difference. Can we call this podcast that please? I came across it when I was reading something the other day and I had to really give it a bit of a think because I didn't really understand what it meant. But I don't think that Freud's right about many things actually and I think he really really twisted the world in such an odd way and we've never twisted back. And you know if you're listening Freud not everybody is thinking about their ding-a-ling-dong-a all the time they just aren't they just aren't you might have been but to have built this entire philosophy on it I just think is then your subconscious and

all that kind of stuff but the narcissism a small difference I think he's right on that it's much much harder to get on with people who are almost like you, but not quite, because there's a frustration that they're not. Because you're angry that they're not. Yeah, OK, that's very interesting. Whereas somebody who's completely different to you is maybe easier to accept those differences, because they're just so blooming far away. They don't niggle at you. Can we just... Yeah, I just want to acknowledge that not that long ago we were talking about the Poo Museum.

If you're still with us listener, just let's all pat ourselves on the back. Where else do you get this? The answer is nowhere. Which is why people are still listening and we are extremely grateful. Oh, we're so grateful. Valerie in Vancouver's got a fantastic book recommendation. She can recommend a wonderful title. It's a 2006 publication called, They Call Me Naughty Lola, Personal Ads from the London Review of Books.

And this is because we were talking yesterday about the ads in The Lady, which are funny. I mean, they are. But at the same time, we both want to say, if you want to do that, good luck to you. Oh, very much so. I mean, just, I wouldn't make any judgment. No, gosh, and I wouldn't knock any form of reaching out.

You know, the dating app has been a wonderful thing for me. And the book is called They Call Me Naughty Lola. It's edited by David Rose. And Valerie says his introduction is as hilarious as the personal ads he includes. I think it's worth one of us purchasing that you think and just having a little bit of a look through. I think it's worth one of us purchasing that and just having a little bit of a look through. I mean the London Review of Books is ever so intellectually sprightly and I think people will use adjectives in there that we might

need to look up. Okay, well that's not the Times Literary Supplement though, is it? That's a different thing. I think the Times Literary Supplement and the London Review of Books may be like alpacas and llamas. Okay. Not get on, Jane. They probably have an annual croquet match. Which is bitter. Bitterly fought. Amy is taking, it's not us really, it's me to task, so I just want to say I'm sorry about this Amy. This is about these

fantasy, romantasy books that are so popular now and I did say I think a of weeks ago, that I didn't, to be honest, didn't quite get it. And Amy just points out, I've seen the genre rubbished and mocked in various forms by the media and on social media as well. I just think it's sexist to do that. George R.R. Martin didn't get the level of that level of disparaging remarks and equivalents to porn, despite writing many many sexual scenes which are often explicitly violent to women and definitely written with the male gaze in mind. This is the Game of Thrones man isn't it? Yeah, it's right isn't it? Yeah. There are other male writers who write fantasy novels where violence against women is excused or indeed historical fiction

which includes much gratuitous sexual violence. Neither are ridiculed in the same way. Fantasy romance books are like many things a spectrum, certainly there are books which are pure erotica but those are the exception rather than the rule, and many include vast word building and incredible writing, and yes sex as well, but sex written by women for women with the female gaze in mind. It's the kind of sex women probably want to have, not because it's some shadow wielding fantasy guy, but because female pleasure is prioritised and is the main focus. Thank you for that. I think it's also just another example of how women's interests and

hobbies are often ridiculed. We're made to feel silly for the things. I think it's also just another example of how women's interests and hobbies are often ridiculed. We're made to feel silly for the things we enjoy and it's easy to pick out things like dragons having sex, which in the novels you seem to be discussing is not a scene that's written about in any level of detail, then it is to just let women enjoy it. If women want to use this genre of book to escape from the real world, then what's the harm? You just make a series of really good points, Amy, and honestly in a world where it's perfectly reasonable, it seems to, well, to indulge a lot of people, not just men, for sport related hobbies, for example. We celebrate the fandom of all sorts of football clubs and musical heroes and heroines

and all the rest of it but we are I shouldn't have been hard on people who enjoy those books so point taken. So I didn't realize that the success of Romanticie really was down to female readers I hadn't grasped that distinction and I was looking at the charts the bestseller charts at the weekend and Onyx Storm, I mean, she can put a zero on the number of books she sold by comparison to the second one in the bestseller lists.

So all hail to women if they're powering a whole genre that has not existed before, because that is what turns the publishing industry, isn't it? It's not us having know, us having sensible conversations or radio programmes about male readership versus female readership. It'll be in the pounds. It's people shillings and pence. So how fantastic. Yeah, people actually getting off their watsits to buy the book. Yeah, I didn't realise that it was the female gaze that kind of shone through in Romanticie. So apologies for not having registered that. So and will you excuse me, I'll just pop out and pop down to the bookshop and buy something.

Are you? Well, that's not the first... you want to start with... maybe one of us should try. You're on holiday next week. I am on holiday. Why can't you dip into the world of Romanticie? Yeah, I will actually. I'll give it a go. I've just never been good at suspending my normal reality though, that's my problem. So I'm not even very good at watching or reading historical, have I said historical? Historical fiction. I really like things set in the present day. Yeah, I sort of basically do. I didn't even as a child, although I could recognize the genius of it, I think, I didn't really get the lion, the witch and the wardrobe and stuff like that. I don't really understand talking animals and things.

But that's just me. And I'm now fully on board with what Amy has said. It's just a person. It's very, very personal. It is, yeah. I don't really like Marvel movies because I can't... No. I can't believe that people can fly. I just know that's not true, Jane. It's not true.

Well, you've been on, you've been, you've flown. No, but you know, all the super power stuff, I just struggle with it. And like you, I wish I didn't, because it definitely denies you so many, obviously very pleasurable areas of creativity. Well, I tell you what, the real world at the moment, I've just got to get off my heaving bosom.

That ludicrous spectacle in you-know-whose office with Musk and his child. And his child. I'm sorry. Apart from anyone else, he's called XAY forward slash 1.20. Just, you know, think of the kids. I didn't realise he had 12 children as well. Deep sigh. It just makes us all feel incredibly tired. And also just, I know it's not an original observation,

but imagine if there'd been three women in that scenario. Let's say the toddler was female. She was sitting on the shoulders of her tech-cis-trillionaire mother. And this mother was having a kind of slightly inexplicable, bizarre romance, let's call it, with the female president of the United States. Well Jane, just imagine if you had turned up at work one day with one of your toddlers. I mean you just would have been laughed out of Broadcasting House. People would have said,

oh you know she's messed up, she can't handle handle her childcare, but she's trying to come to work as well. How dare she? How dare she be doing those two things? And, you know, we have been told by managers not to mention our children, not to mention our pregnancies, not to mention that we've got a hint learned. So it really bugs me that he can stroll in there with his toddler. So I'm with you on that. And casually reference giving condoms to Mozambique, which by the way he confused with somewhere else. But anyways he said I'll say things that are wrong. So he's even got, he's got, he's able to say I'm going to get things wrong. Yep. And that's okay as well apparently. I've literally got my head in my hands. No I know. I'm stroking

my forehead. Let's move on. Yep. It's deeply frustrating, but as we keep on saying, let's just remember the thoughts of David Petraeus in 10 years' time wearing a dressing gown, shouting at cars. And also, America is one of the most litigious places on earth, and there are already hundreds of people who have lodged a complaint through the courts about some of the effects of the executive orders on their lives. So we do need to wait a little bit further I think down the line before congratulating everybody on a marvelous reshaking of the snow globe. Dear Jane, Fee and Eve, I was interested in

your comments yesterday about how nobody has ever said I wish I grew up with social media. How true. I'm of Jane's vintage, one day younger to be precise. So that makes you 82. I don't think I'm prehistoric but in communication terms this story may suggest otherwise. In 1985 when my friends and I were doing our year abroad during our languages degree at Bath University we arranged to go interraining during our Easter holiday. Three of us were living in Germany, one in France. My friend in France had no phone or accessed one in her village that made international calls. Do you remember those days? Meanwhile in

Germany I could accept calls but was not allowed to make them on the house phone in order to arrange to meet up on said interrail trip my friend in France wrote me a letter in capital letters to inform me that she would cycle to the next town from where she would phone me at a certain day and time to tell me her arrival details in Milan. She did this putting in about five francs 50p all she could afford to tell me in 37 seconds what date and time her train would arrive at Milan station. We then arranged our trip accordingly to be there at that time. There was no way of contacting her if anything didn't work out and no plan B. But it did all work out and we had a hilarious week together in Italy navigating Italian men, toilets and dodgy accommodation.

WhatsApp would have made life an awful lot easier. Well that's true Caroline but actually actually what a golden time yeah because you had to concentrate there was a little bit more frisson around traveling you had to be logistical and I bet I just bet you noticed more so I completely agree it would have been easier with social media back then. But do you honestly regret that? I don't know. If I had that memory,

I think we've all got quite similar memories because we are of a certain vintage. Apart from anything else, I really remember long periods of time traveling where I genuinely looked out the window and that takes you to a completely different place and now on the train I am so aware of the fact I'm checking my bank statement, reading off about Freud, yes, trolling people, it's not the same as it is. Also back in those days clearly if you made a commitment you were much surely much more likely to stick to it.

Good point system. Plans meant something. You didn't let people down. You didn't mess them about. Yeah. And I think that's a time I wish we could return to in lots of ways. Sounds a very nice inter-railing trip that. Doesn't it? Don't mention mine. Now, welcome to the feminist...

Welcome to Bruges. It was Brussels. Welcome to the feminist reassessment of cultural icons. And this is because I mentioned One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest the other day. Really weird film. And Louise says she agrees. She rewatched it over the summer with her 18-year-old son. He was shortly going to uni. And as part of my homegrown finishing school, I think this is a

great idea, I was trying to cram as many noteworthy films into him as possible before he left. Before that rewatch, I probably hadn't seen that film since I was myself a teenager. Nurse Ratched, played by Louise Fletcher, is depicted as an authoritarian figure who mistreats and belittles the patients. McMurphy, Jack Nicholson of course, is the free spirit standing up to the system. These days we might say that he's sticking it to the man, only tellingly in this case the man is represented by a woman. The author, Ken Kesey and the filmmakers, might have intended to tell us what they thought about patient care in mental institutions, but they seem to have revealed a whole lot extra about what they thought about women in the workplace. McMurphy is natural, joyful and full of life. Ratched is the opposite, suggesting the idea that women have betrayed themselves by insisting on having a role

outside that of mother or lover. Even more disturbing, the section of the film where Jack Nicholson's character snuggles two women onto the ward and arranges for one of them to have sex with a younger inmate. The woman seems to have zero say in this matter. Yeah, I'd forgotten that as well. Despite all this, I am glad we watched it. There are some truly feel-good moments and it did raise a lot of good discussion. I see little harm in watching outdated material like this as long as we do it with a critical eye. By the way, she says Jack Nicholson's beanie in the film is a good one.

Louise, thank you very much for your thoughts on that. I think she's right about the film, to be honest, but I love the idea of this finishing school and making sure that your youngsters go out into the world with a little bit of cultural heritage in their system. What would you say was an essential watch? Gosh, that's a good point. I would think it's probably quite important to watch Schindler's List, for example, something, something that was on television the other night. And that's Steven Spielberg's greatest achievement surely. I mean I'm not a film guru by any stretch of the imagination but... And Dr. Shavago, I absolutely love Dr. Shavago. People, who was I mentioning? I think I was, I had mentioned it to some the other day and they literally scoffed at it.

But that was on TV on Saturday. Was it Saturday or the Saturday before? I mean it's just astonishing. I love it. It's about four hours long. I know but you can watch it in bits. I just think the scale of that is just... And it's beautiful. That's David Lean's film with Omar Sharif and Julie Christie. And no, it's just... just I mean of course it by our standards now looks ridiculous the snow and everything else but bloody

hell just get a get a box of matchmakers and sit down and watch Dr. Shibargo. A great big box of after-eights. I'd say Philadelphia because I think it's just got that sense of prejudice being challenged in such an amazing way and and also I think it's just got that sense of prejudice being challenged in such an amazing way. And also I think it's very easy for the generations younger than us to not have realised, for all the right reasons actually, because medicine came along to be so helpful, but to not realise the effect that AIDS had and the homophobia that existed and just the dreadful kind of confluence of you know this is a disease that has been sent to take out people who we don't like which was a position in some people's minds I

mean you know it tells you a story about where some people's heads still are and then also Juno, do you remember Juno? It's the most lovely film about a young girl's pregnancy. And I remember watching it and thinking, if I ever had, and I watched it before I had kids, or I think when I only had one or a baby or whatever, but I remember thinking that is absolutely a movie that all teenagers should watch. Because it's very realistic

about teenage pregnancy and about what you might want to do with your own life as well as you know the maternal instinct that may or may not kick in I think that's a beautiful film very carefully done and Silver Linings playbook as well I think super I's superb. I've never seen that. Oh my goodness, so that's Bradley Cooper and it is about the reality of living with mental illness. It's absolutely brilliant. Who's the... Jennifer Lawrence. Jennifer Lawrence, thank you. Eva Handler has stepped in there at the last moment. Have you seen Juno?

Yeah. Okay, it's lovely. Would you agree? Yeah. Okay. I'm just checking in with Eve there in case my mind has done some kind of a flip And actually, you know, Juno is a Barbra Streisand musical And these things can happen They can happen to us. That is for damn sure. So shall we pursue this little vein? Because I think that's an interesting one. Well, I think that's a very good line of thinking. Yeah

What are the films you'd pass on to your youngsters if they were about to, or indeed just to anybody that you cared about, who was going out into the world? What should everyone have watched? Yeah, that's good. That's very good. As you're listening to me, Daisy, Apple's iPhone disassembly robot, is dismantling an iPhone into lots of recyclable parts. That's how Apple recovers more materials than conventional recycling methods. Thanks Daisy, there's more to iPhone.

Do you have business insurance? If not, how would you pay to recover from a cyber attack, fire damage, theft or a lawsuit? No business or profession is risk-free. Without insurance, your assets are at risk from major financial losses, data breaches and natural disasters. Get customized coverage today starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com. Be protected. Be Zen. The Ukrainian novelist and poet Victoria Amelina had been on holiday in Egypt when the Russians invaded in 2022. She went back home though and became a war crimes researcher and somebody

who chronicled the life and the bravery of other women who joined the Ukrainian resistance. As you're about to hear, Victoria was an impressive, genuinely life-enhancing woman who made many friends. And she was not oblivious to the risks of going home to a war zone. Here she is speaking at the Hay Festival Katahena in January of 2023. We know that Russian troops brought not only parade uniforms with them in the beginning of the invasion but also body bags. We are pretty sure that those body bags were for the Ukrainian elite, for writers, for mayors, for people who we see tortured and murdered at the occupied territories right now. And this is why it is so important for us to not sacrifice our people who are suffering

now on the temporarily occupied territories. We have to fight for every one of them and save our people from being prisoners of Russia. Victoria speaking in January of 2023 and she was killed by a Russian missile attack on a pizza restaurant in July of that year. She was 37 and had a young son. She didn't get the opportunity to finish her book Looking at Women, Looking at War, but I suppose in some ways it does make the book all the more powerful. Tetyana Teran is the executive director of PEN Ukraine and she knew Victoria well. They met when they worked for that organisation, which brings journalists, creatives and human rights activists together.

Usually she wear black dresses and because of that I am in my black dress today. And she was a great friend, first of all, I should say. She was a very dedicated friend, woman, mother, Ukrainian, volunteer. You mentioned about our relationship and I should tell you about 2022, when the full-scale Russia's war started in Ukraine. And I remember that Victoria wrote to me just at the beginning of that very difficult days that I will be happy if you move and come to my apartment in Lviv, because it was a safer place at that moment. And in one week, after my staying in the capital, Ukrainian capital, I moved to Victoria's apartment in Lviv with my

friend, her mother, her grandmother, and their three cats. And we spent a lot of time together speaking on the situation, working on the volunteering very house in Lviv. And I'm very happy that I had that time together at the beginning of the full scale war. So she she reached out to you and offered you her home at that most difficult moment that that does that is the measure of somebody isn't it? But you should know that it was not only for me, so many people from different Ukrainian cities and towns came to Victoria's apartment so her doors were always open for everyone

who who needed her help and support. You know, she was a person who can motivate and inspire you. And I launched dozens of different cultural human rights initiatives because Victoria motivated me to start this work. There is a quote from her in the book, and other people have noted this too. She wrote about after the invasion or around the time of the invasion, we have to decide who we are during wartime. I mean, let's just be honest about it. She probably, along with many of you, could have left the country, could have gone, could have come to London, could have made a life here. She didn't. She stayed in Ukraine and she turned herself into

a war crimes researcher. I mean, that was a very, very brave, very brave thing to do. Tell me about that. You know, at the beginning of full scale war, she was not in Ukraine, as she described. She was on holiday, wasn't she? Yeah, yeah. It was her, it was her family, it was her 11 year son. Um, but I should say, you know, it's also about my situation and other people in our community, that all of us have this feeling that we must, we should stay in our country during these

difficult days. So we can't leave our home, we can't leave our relatives, our beloved people because of the war, we can't leave our cities, our streets. And Victoria had the same feeling. It's somehow close to the feeling of guilt, you know, that you don't do enough for your community and for your country during the war. And Victoria especially had this feeling. And I remember, as I mentioned,

that we spent these first weeks together at the beginning of full-scale war and I remember how she was trying to find this right place and right role during the war. And we should say as well that her son, he was very young, he wasn't in Ukraine at the time was he? Yes, she decided that her son will stay with her friends in Krakow and she returned to Ukraine just two days after the Russian invasion. So she made an enormous sacrifice thinking

that that was the right and the safest place for her son to be and there's some really heartwarming very sad detail in this book about his concerns about notably about his Lego because he had these incredibly elaborate Lego constructions, which a lot of children love doing, and he didn't want all the visitors to their home to be fiddling with his Lego. That was one detail that really, really struck with me. I think there are a lot of such touching details in this book,

and I think that her son can understand everything. When we lived in Victoria's apartment, sometimes we had 10, I don't know, 15 people in one apartment from different parts of Ukraine. So I think that her son knows why his mother did like this. You know, there is another moment in this book at the beginning when Victoria wrote that I am a mother, I am a novelist who decided to become a war crimes researcher. It's about her choice. And this book is a part of this choice.

To write her first nonfiction book about Russian war crimes and to write it in English first of all for the foreign audience. I think that is hugely significant. You're right to point that out. It's called Looking at Women, Looking at War. Do women notice different things in war? Is it really important that women are able to report on war and to recount their own experiences?

You know, I can say as a Ukrainian that there are like different roles for men and women in Ukraine now because of the war, but of course, the majority of our men and also women joined the army because of the Russian aggression. You knew people, women who joined the army, didn't you? Yes, of course. Even in our organization in Penn, we have a great poet who joined the Ukrainian army in 2019, not just in 2022. A lot of women joined other fields of work during the war. But for Victoria as a writer, as a woman, of course, it was

always important to write about women roles and women voices in Ukrainian history, in Ukrainian current reality. And if you read her poems, for example, it's also about women voices in Ukraine. And the same if you speak about her novels and non-fiction. So it was her choice to help Ukrainian women to be heard and to be visible. I mean, people listening will understand that she isn't here and you are speaking on her behalf because Victoria was killed in the explosion at a pizza restaurant. Now this, I mean, she was out with a group of Colombian writers, is that correct? It was just another night, she didn't need

to go, did she? Tell me about that. It was four days before the tragedy and Victoria didn't plan to go to Kramatorsk that time, but she met our Colombian colleagues, writers and journalists at the Arsenal Book Festival and decided to help them in their mission to Ukrainian East. So it was a spontaneous decision. So it was one more part of her mission to help other people, especially from other countries, to learn more about current Ukrainian situation. And because of that she joined the Colombian group of writers.

Right. So she was carrying out her mission right up until the very end. I mean, I'm so sorry for your loss and I think it clearly is something that obviously it still still upsets you. So now we're at a point where it looks as though we might be heading towards the end of the war. How do you all feel about that? I know you can't speak for every writer in Ukraine, but what are people saying about it all? You know, everyone in Ukraine, even after it's already three years of this full-scale

war, everyone is still trying to be as much useful and helpful as they can and to work as much as possible in this situation. And I think it's so important that Victoria's book is published now, when the situation, of course, is very difficult for our country and geopolitical situation is difficult, and when everyone, especially if you speak about army, already very tired after three years of such a difficult fight. But the main idea is to bring justice to Ukraine, to Ukrainian society. And I think this is the most important thing. Ukrainians want not just

peace, they want justice. Do you think realistically that Ukraine will get justice? I think we have no choice if you speak about people who we lost and our beloved colleagues and friends, among them Victoria. So I think this is our responsibility and this book is about justice and it's not only about literature, you know, this book is also evidence of crimes. Yes, yeah. I mean, I'm somebody who can read this book in my own home in, let's be honest, rather peaceful London, relatively speaking, never been challenged by any of the things that have happened to your compatriots in Ukraine.

And it seems to me that it must be appalling to have read this book, to have understood all the detail of what has been done to Ukraine and its people, and to now be faced with the idea of it all being over and wondering what it was all about. Could she forgive Putin, do you think? I think not. It's impossible. And having read the book, I don't understand how anyone could. In the world, yes, not just if you speak about Ukraine,

because this crime is not just against Ukraine, this crime is against all world. What do you believe are the chances of peace in the next couple of weeks? I don't know, I think no one knows at this moment, though of course everyone is very attentive now to all news from different countries and all plans which are announced now. I think that we have the same feeling we should do as much as we can and I live with this feeling of huge responsibility. That is the voice of Tetiana Teran, who's the executive director of PEN Ukraine. She was talking there about what might happen to Ukraine in the next couple of weeks, but she was really on the program to pay tribute to her great friend,

the Ukrainian novelist and poet Victoria Amelina, whose book Looking at Women, Looking at War has been published posthumously. Of course, it does seem as though we might, I mean let's hope we are, edging towards some kind of resolution to the war in Ukraine. But you know, so much loss of life and just so much suffering. It continues to be heartbreaking but I suppose we've just got to hope that it can all be over sooner rather than later. And that good might prevail somewhere. Just on that tip, Nabila, who is the Afghan journalist who we spoke to last Friday,

she sent a message via our ex-BBC sister and former colleague Anu Anand. She just wanted to say thank you enormously for people's generosity on the GoFundMe page because due to your kindnesses her and her family will be able to remain safe in Pakistan for quite a while. So enormous thank you to everybody who dipped into that. Yeah a real generosity and I know I read that message actually and Nabila is well life's just been made a little bit easier thanks to she says what was it she put the kindness of strangers thousands of miles away yes yeah and I just honestly Jane could you have done what she's done at

the age of 26? I couldn't do it now. So thank you to all of you you're just lovely lovely kind people it is Jane and Fee at times.radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offer is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. As you're listening to me, Daisy, Apple's iPhone disassembly robot, is dismantling an iPhone into lots of recyclable parts. That's how Apple recovers more materials than conventional recycling methods. Thanks, Daisy.

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