Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Never lose your impact (with Alice Loxton)

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Jane and Fi are about to head off for a week, but they have one more episode to knock off first. This one goes out to all the Clares/Claires! They cover steak and kidney pie, university, pets eating vegetables and marmalade. Plus, Jane and Fi speak to historian Alice Loxton on A-Level results day about her new book '18: A History of Britain in 18 Young Lives'.  'Your chance to enjoy again' is coming as Jane and Fi head off on their holidays. They'll be back after the bank holiday on Tuesday the 27th. See you then!If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People sometimes do that at Christmas, don't they? I mean, I'm very pleased that you're good at it, but I'm just made a bit angry. Because you just think, well, I haven't done that. I haven't got any homemade preserves to give you. I know exactly what you mean. A complaint comes in straight away, right at the beginning, from Bruce, who just says,

holidays again, grumpy face, emoji. Well, good news for you, Bruce, because we are going to put out some best of podcasts. As we used to say back at the old place, your chance to enjoy again. Yes, exactly. I'm not sure whether Bruce will be completely satisfied by that, but we've done our best.

But in fairness to us, Bruce, we've only had, we had a week off, didn't we, earlier in the summer, different weeks. Yeah. And we've got this week off, and then I don't know about you, but I've got a couple of days in October, I'm all the way through to Christmas. I think I was intending to power through until Yule tide.

Yeah. So we're not taking the max. No. We're not taking the max. We're not taking the max. No, we're not taking the max. We're not extracting the urine. And almost certainly one of us will come down with a virus of some sort. Oh, no, don't. Sorry, no, but you don't know.

Don't. We've had so many emails from people called Claire. We love you all. Thank you. I'm not saying that's our demographic, but I think basically we're broadcasting to Claire's the world over and we couldn't be more delighted. Claire is in Surrey and she says my Irish nan always called a quiche a quickie. That was just how she pronounced it, just saying. Also my goddaughter has the surname Goss and she's marrying a boy with the surname Goss. What are the chances? She doesn't have to

change her name at all. Very very slim. Not sure whether to say don't mention the surnames, or if you don't it will lose story impact as people will just think they're called Smith. I'll leave that with you. Well, I've mentioned it now and I hope that doesn't cause trouble, but you're right. If we didn't mention

it, your anecdote would lose impact, Claire. So, I've done it now. And never lose impact. Never. That would've done it now. And never lose impact. Never. That would be a good sign off. Never lose your impact, Fee and Jane. This one comes in from Lewis McGuinness, who says, I listen to your podcast regularly

and I really enjoy the range of topics discussed and your funny stories and ramblings. This is a man. Really? Okay. Well, I think so. Our family dog Rolo, working cocker, loves an apple core and regularly shares an apple with me.

He also loves carrots, especially when being chopped for a casserole. He sits next to the worktop waiting for slices to be handed down. We sometimes set a plate of carrots at the table for dinner so he can eat with us. I know that will horrify some of your listeners, but he is a special part of our family. I think it's delightful. Attached is a photo of Rolo having some carrots

whilst my wife and daughter play poker. Yeah, that's just so random. It's a beautiful photo, and thank you so much. I have to say, Rolo looks, I've got to say, a trifle despondent gazing at his plate of carrots. Or maybe that's just his resting phase. I think. Well, he's a working cocker so he's probably

very tired he's exhausted after a full day of working and he wants a steak yeah and also uh because the the second picture is of uh presumably your wife and she's having a glass of wine and on her plate she's got pasta she's got got, I think, asparagus, carrots, something gorgeous and kind of golden in a saucy type way. And Rolo has just got five slices of carrots. So I think Rolo's thinking, well, why don't I get all of that? Anyway, Lewis, it's lovely of you to take the time. We're very glad you're on board. Let's see, what's this? Oh, Alison says, I listen with interest. That's what we like to hear

you talking about sandwich spread in the past tense but it's still available i bought a jar of it this week i do have to agree though with jane's love of carrot chutney sandwiches my favorite sandwich of all has been for years i discovered them during an extended stay in the induction suite my daughter is now seven now i haven't thought of that sandwich in that context, and that's slightly taken me to another place. Up north, a flan would have sounded far too up itself. My mum and my nana always referred to their homemade quiches as bacon and egg pie. The Wensleydale Cheese Factory and Visitor Centre is indeed in Hawes. They have many different varieties on offer, and they do a very good plough persons.

As a supply teacher, I often spread the off-air word in all the staff rooms I visit. Perhaps you know of a good quality bag to hold all the kit I have to carry. No, we don't. No idea. Absolutely at a loss. She claims to take in sun hat, pencil case, books, sunscreen, whistle. I have arrived at schools to be told it's sports day today and been whistle-less, stickers, lunch, raincoat wellies, outdoor

play slash forest school. I always have to expect the unexpected and I could do with something sturdy and strong. Well, I'm afraid, Alison, you haven't made this week's list, but I'm going to put you to one side and give it to our executive colleague, Eve, who will make sure that you're very much at the top of the list the next time the totes come round. So we will do parish notices and totes after we've heard the interview today, which is about being a teen throughout history.

It is by the historian Alex Loxton, and it's really interesting. It's quite a clever premise, isn't it? I think it's such a good idea, this one. Everybody from Queen Elizabeth at the age of 18, Bede, the venerable. Venerable? Vulnerable? Well, he was probably both.

But he probably started off vulnerable, became venerable. Maybe it's going to happen to all of us. I think Bede the Vulnerable might actually be the more realistic story. Probably more appealing. Yeah, but it's a very clever premise. And I think Alice, I think she's only about 28 herself. She's in her late 20s. She's very, very young.

I'm going to say a tiny bit overachieving, but good luck to her. She's just really successful. Successful, there we are. What were you doing when you were 28? Still very much in the steamy world of local radio. Yeah, but you were doing a breakfast show by then, weren't you? Oh, yeah, no, I was, yes, I was kind of, look, I was living my little dream.

Yeah, so you were. I'm not denying it. If someone had said, if an older woman had said, you're overachieving, how would you have felt? No older women took a scrap of interest. I think that's one of the things that is true of the generation above us. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

They weren't terrifically good at, I'm going to say, reaching down to give the rest of us a leg up. Am I being unfair? There were some who were obviously outstanding in this area, but on the whole, I think the competition was quite strong and they were a little bit defensive maybe of their achievements. I don't know. Well, I think ours is a very odd profession i think it's highly competitive you can say that again you know in front of the microphone stuff but actually the the the women i met in management

who are a generation above me or at least kind of 10 15 years above me were incredibly helpful and encouraging oh that's good. Really, really lovely. Yeah. So, I mean, I can think of two of them and I won't name names. Although, why the hell not? We're saying something nice. If they were good, you can. So I think Jenny Abramski and Helen Bowden were terrific female managers.

And I would rate Sally Collins as well. She went off to run BBC Radio Wales. But they were our age. Well, Sally was. But Helen Bowden's... I'm sorry, Helen, but you are... Oh, Helen and Jenny were older. A little bit older than me.

Not much. I did a terrible... Well, do you remember at the radio festival when we were doing... I was hosting some Q&A thing on the stage and people were putting up their hands and stuff and a woman put up her hand and I just couldn't see through the lights.

Oh, God. Right. And it was her, wasn't it? Yeah. She asked a question I just couldn't see through the lights. Oh, God. Right. And it was her, wasn't it? Yeah. She asked a question. She was your boss at the time. No, I'm sorry, we need your name first. She says, I'm your boss. I'm your boss, you silly mare.

But she was terrific. But my... Jenny Abramski was the very, very important controller in the very early days of BBC Radio 5 Live, when it was absolutely in its pomp and its heyday. Results day. Oh yes, congratulations by the way. It is congratulations, isn't it?

Well, to my son, not to me. But you did it. No, I hate that. I absolutely hate it. Oh, I don't. I can't stand that. Okay, well, congratulations to you both. And I hope he celebrates in a very sensible and responsible way. He went to work, Jane.

Well, there we are. I mean, I'm just going to say something lovely about him. Pause if you find this nauseating. He took his results in his stride. He didn't think he was going to do well. And he's got what he needed to go where he wants to go. And then he had a shower and went to work. And I just love him.

I absolutely love that boy. That's very impressive. Not that you love him. I absolutely love that boy. That's very impressive. Not that you love him, that's not impressive, but his attitude is impressive. Anyway, you were saying about Jenny Abramski. No, no, I was once in a BBC lift with Jenny Abramski when she was my absolute boss and I was absolutely petrified of her.

And I had a jar of marmalade and it was just me and her in the lift and I just said, I've got my own marmalade. And she looked just me and her in the lift and I just said I've got my own marmalade and she looked at me and said that's nice because I just couldn't think of anything else to say Okay, so many supplementary questions Then I got out of the lift and so did she

Why did you have your own marmalade? I think it might have been the marmalade my dad made because my dad makes nothing in the kitchen except marmalade. And he would always make sure that every single member of the family had to have a jar of this homemade marmalade. Okay. Yeah.

So, yeah, that was me. That was her. That was the marmalade. It is difficult sometimes, in a confined space in particular, just to know what to say to people who are super senior and incredibly important. I still don't really know. No, definitely.

Definitely, definitely. I've had that a little bit in this building. I was going to say, imagine. Yeah, because sometimes the lifts pause for a long period of time to reload or balance or something like that. And I just have this thing going round in my head just saying, don't cock it up, don't cock it up, don't cock it up, don't cock it up. Don't let out a little wind. It would be really embarrassing.

Now, quite a regular visitor to this and indeed to many other media buildings is John Bolton, who was Trump's national security advisor. Detail, detail. And I'm saying that into my wrist. Yeah, for quite a short time. Because that is what happens. I don't think I'd be in a lift with him because I think he goes with his close protection wherever he goes.

But yeah, he has those enormous brick shithouse sized individuals and they're always talking into their cuffs always yeah yeah communicating with somebody in their cuffs yeah can i just say before we move on to i wanted to just do part two of helen's fantastic things that she wish she'd known uh email but i think the the annual and only annual making of a showboating preserve is a little bit unfair. On the other partner in the kitchen, who's just doing all of the meat and two veg on a daily basis. On a wet Wednesday in November.

It is, isn't it? Yeah. But look at my absolutely glowing golden Seville marmalade. That is showboating. Yes, I always think, is it a tiny bit showy-offy to hand, I'm not getting at my dad here, but to hand out stuff you've made? People sometimes do that at Christmas, don't they? I mean, I'm very pleased that you're good at it,

but I'm just made a bit angry. Because you just think, well, I haven't done that. I haven't got any homemade preserves to give you. I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean i know exactly what i mean here's my remarkable life-size sculpture which i just did on wednesday afternoon while you were watching kiesh in the attic so this is the end of uh helen's email um and it's about degrees so you may remember that yesterday she was just talking about one of her kids who just made a really, really sudden and completely understandable

kind of reach and grab for a place at university through clearing. That's what so many people will be doing today. And you totally understand why, because you just want it to be firmed up and sorted. And also there's something quite exciting about, you know, throwing yourself on the lottery of academic chance and just going right I'll see what that university's like but Helen ends her email by saying you can start your degree at any age and some people would be

better not trying it at 18 years old my husband started his at 25 and my dad at 55 and both of them got more out of them than either myself or my brother or I expect my son might and of course you'll be accepted onto a course in another year especially if you bring life experience and renewed drive there's another page to come which I will find but in the meantime where's the back I'm just going to bring in another topic from yesterday which was doing good things for the wrong reasons. This is anonymous and it's not from a Claire. I can say that with some certainty. Today we're at a campsite in our lovely caravan.

A single lady turned up with her dog only to find that her tent was broken. She was going to get a 25-minute bus and then walk 30 minutes to a Tesco to buy a replacement. I couldn't let her do this, so I offered to drive her there and back. It was only about nine miles each way. On one level, I did want to help her out, but the bigger drive was just the opportunity to get away from my husband who was driving me absolutely mad. Just lots of little things and just a break away from

him was just what I needed. Ha ha ha, says our anonymous correspondent correspondent who did a good thing for sort of the wrong reasons um but i get it and um thank you very much for that she also says actually when one of her offspring went to uni uh they would get a christmas gift of a plastic box always useful containing all the basics toothpaste dry shampoo lemsit paracetamol, lip-solve strepsils, hair bands, face masks, aspirin, imodium, Sudocrem, mascara, cotton wool balls, mints, face wipes, make-up remover, nail varnish remover and some really crappy toy. Who did that box?

She did. Oh, OK. That sounds terrific. Is there a thermometer in there? Oh, no, you've missed that. Anonymous correspondent. OK. I tried to press the thermometer on various younger people in the house going off to festivals and holidays and stuff

and the look on their face. Fantastic. But just to end Helen's email, going away to university can be bloody fantastic. I hope those who chose to go this year have a wonderful time. And to those who have to wait for another year or two, once you get there, once you finish, that delay will not only not matter,

it will make all the difference to your ability to make it a success. Wishing all our young people love and happiness. So I completely agree, Helen. I think those are very wise words, well-spoken. You can do some interesting things in, you know, the years before going back to university if that's the way your cookie is going to crumble.

And in fact, Helen sent a quiche dish update. I've had my ceramic quiche dish from the famous pool pottery for years. I've had it so long I think I might even have bought it before I had a kitchen. It's... What would you be doing with it, Helen? It's 23 centimetres in diameter. Gosh.

I would call that only family size, not massive. No, it's quite... 23 centimetres, that's only about that big. I understand this is not very exciting radio, but... We're on a podcast now, but yes. Audio. It's not huge. No, it isn't.

I don't know what it is. I'm sorry, I don't like quiche, or as I'm now going to call it forever, a quickie. I'd never, ever choose it. Ever, ever, ever. There's something about that meeting place of pastry and an egg wobbly bit that does me in. I can't bear it.

Sorry. Oh, anonymous. I can't mention this man's name, but is a man uh here's my we've had lots of men actually this week uh here's his confession i started volunteering at a local food bank not out of the goodness of my heart but because the application for a well-known competitive tv baking show had a lengthy section on hobbies and interests inspired by the kind of things they show in those profile segments when introducing contestants, I figured that this would give my application a little bit of extra

rise. Well, spoiler alert, I was dropped in the first round of auditions. Fast forward four years and I'm now on the volunteer leadership team, bless you Eve, and I hardly ever bake anymore, he says. So that's interesting. Now properly works at the food bank, and good for you, by the way. Not sure if this contribution is tote-worthy, but I'd love to be considered. Well, I'm passing you over to the executive. He's already done.

Okay, well done, Anonymous. You're in there. I mean, you will hear your name read out, but perhaps we'll carry on calling you Anonymous. But congratulations, and I'm very glad that you're working in the food bank. Just out of interest, I have a good friend of mine who works in her local food bank and she says if you're looking for useful things to buy those fray bentos pies are always popular at the food bank they go very and you can get chicken ones you can get chicken curry one uh you can I always get I do occasionally give to the food bank not every time I go to my Tesco because I'm just not that nice but I when I do occasionally give to the food bank. Not every time I go to my Tesco, because I'm just not that nice. But when I do remember, I get a Frey Bentos one.

And I never get the steak and kidney, because I just assume that nobody likes the kidney. You can get steak and you can get chicken. Yeah. Would you ever choose steak and kidney? Yeah, I would. Would you? I would.

So, do you ever shop at Morrison's? No, I haven't got one locally. Well, I have, but I don't go there because the test goes closer. Okay. So I've done a couple of shops recently at Morrison's and I'm new to it. And they do this fantastic thing where by the till, where there used to be bubble gum and all that kind of pester power stuff,

they now have ready-made bags that you can put on your shop on the conveyor belt and pay for. And that's a sensibly stocked bag. Sensibly stocked bag for the food bank of something that a family actually needs. So you can pay for one bag of food, which is for a family of four for a week or for a person for a week or two people for a week and it's all ready packaged up and stuff i

just thought that was fantastic really fantastic good idea isn't it and because it prevents the glut of stuff because quite often when you walk past those bins a load of beans it's a load of beans and you know not not enough sanitary towels, mouthwash, toothpaste, you know, all the other things that food banks need as well. So I just wonder why other supermarkets don't do that because it's a really neat and tidy way. And they're everything from, you know, just a couple of quid,

you know, all the way up to over a tenner. Well, it's a good idea. I hadn't heard about that, so well done to Morrisons. And yeah, I don't know, maybe the others do. If you know that they do, tell us about it. Kate and Eliza, good afternoon, good morning, good evening. We don't know what time of day it is where you are because this is a mother and daughter combo

who are currently backpacking in Indonesia. And I think that's an incredibly bold thing to be doing. And I think Eliza is the daughter. She says she has developed an interest in listening to the archers. But the other day, I followed this with Off Air. And the next day, she said, what about those two women? And the next day, when there was no archers, she said, but we have still got Jane and Fee, haven't we? I had to explain that unfortunately, Off Air is only broadcast four days a week and she was genuinely disappointed. However, we have been able to listen to you live for the first time

as the seven hours time difference means you're on when we get back to our room. I know you have listeners in many places in the world, but could Eliza be your youngest listener requesting you both by name? It's possible. I think it's quite likely and hello to you. Yes, hello to Eliza again.

That's lots of mentions. She enjoyed the discussion about Kindles because she's an avid reader and she's brought one on holiday and she assures you they are a game changer and very reliable. That's Kate, the mum. I still don't trust them, Kate. I'm sorry. I'm taking about 14 large books on holiday next week.

Do you know what? I do wonder when the hardback's going to disappear. It annoys me. It is a wait, isn't it? It is a wait. And also, don't publishers just miss out? Because I very rarely want to wait until the paperback comes no i do wait until the paperback comes oh do you yeah sorry the other way around well because the hardback is 1699 i know no i know

but then weirdly can somebody explain airport additions because they are usually softback and they're often brand new so they're in hardback in your high street so they just don't want to miss a marketing moment. No, they don't. It's just I find the whole, as you and I have both been, we've long been baffled by the publishing industry. Yes. We were hardback and then paperback, weren't we?

We very much were. What's the name of our book? By the way, I think the audio version's actually quite good. It's just us. It's just us rambling on with a bit of unique material in between the chapters. Did I say that out loud? Thank you. Right, final one from me. This one comes from Vicky. After hearing your comments about tricycles today, I wanted to let you know about my planned midlife crisis purchase.

I had an amputation of my leg when I was seven and rode a tricycle, which was adapted to be ridden with one pedal, well into my teens. It was brilliant and gave me so much freedom i've wanted to ride a bike as an adult but don't have room in my terraced house for a tricycle but i've now found a folding trike that i'm going to treat myself to for my impending 50th birthday i think it's worth a mention you'll be able to find this on missioncycles.co.uk i'm local to fee and intend to use it in Victoria Park initially until I get my confidence up and spread my wings further, maybe Hackney Marshes.

So if you see a woman out with a huge brindle greyhound with a red collar, that's me, Vicky. And if I see you out on your trike, that's you, and we're going to say hello to each other. My husband is getting a Tesla for his midlife crisis. OK. Tesla, that means Musk, though, doesn't it? It's still... Yeah, that is his company, isn't it?

Yeah. OK. I think the Tesla's very overrated. I think the Skoda EV is a wonderful thing. It's a poor man's Tesla. I think it's much better. Is it? Honestly, I couldn't, I just would not know.

I don't think I could tell the difference. Weirdly, I think most EVs look the same. So the Tesla, it was kind of a slightly original design when it came out. It just got a kind of slightly flattened bonnet and it's gull wings and stuff. I occasionally get one of those cabs that comes, you know, one of the ones you can get on the app.

Yes. And sometimes they're, are they Tesla? Are they EVs with funny door handles? It's the door handles I can't get across. Well, aren't most of those Priuses? Oh, that could be that. Yeah. I'm not a car expert.

It's maybe becoming evident. But the shape for EVs, I genuinely can't tell the difference between a Vauxhall, a Skoda, a VW, and probably whoever's making the Kia. I mean, they just genuinely, to me, all look the same. And they just all seem to be grey. People don't seem to be buying exciting colours of cars anymore or making them.

Well, that's why we have that yellow car game, don't we? You know, when you shout, yellow car. No. What? Yellow car. No. Explain the game. What's happening?

When you're in traffic and you see a yellow car, somebody has to be the first to shout yellow car. And you're playing that? Still playing it. My kids are in their 40s now. What's the prize? There isn't one. You just have to be the first to say it okay honestly

the hours fly by yeah i just want to mention anonymous um i met a lovely late in life love interest she says we've been together for about four years my children had both left for uni and we were just in the process of buying a house together and then he was diagnosed with terminal prostate cancer he's 52 no real symptoms apart from needing a wee in the night. The interview with John Holmes really touched my heart. Tell your loved ones, go to the doctor, get tested early. We're now getting married, which is a joyful thing. Though I have difficult parents who love my ex

and are not so keen on the new partner. He is of Indian heritage and they're of a different generation. The wedding is a minefield of who to invite, not offending anyone. Well, I'm really sorry that's proving to be a difficulty. I don't think you need these difficulties right now. Congratulations to you both and I hope you have a lovely day. Our correspondent goes on to say,

when I used to hear of people getting terminal cancer, I always thought I'd never be able to cope if it happened to me or somebody I love. But here we are living our lives, good days and bad ones, more good than bad. On the topic of riding bikes, I would recommend an electric bike. The speed and the joy is just utterly life enhancing. Well, to that listener, thank you so much for contacting us. And again, just very best to you both. That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah i mean i hope you just enjoy every every precious second uh and yep to all the men who are listening and all the women who love the men who aren't listening uh just go and have a test let's just go and have a test

so we've been talking all afternoon about what you were up to and capable of when you were 18 and our guest this afternoon is so relevant to this topic, it's as if we planned it. Alice Loxton is a historian and she's got a book out which is called 18, A History of Britain in 18 Young Lives. It's such a canny conceit as she looks at lives as distant as Bede the Venerable, born in AD 673, to the life of Vivienne Westwood, born in 1941, a woman whose clarion call was to the teenager inside us all. And Alice is here now. Hello, Alice. Hello, it's wonderful to be here. Well, it's very lovely to meet you. You're very welcome on the programme. As you point out at the start of the book, in previous centuries,

18 was really something. It was your middle age, wasn't it? It wasn't the kind of crucible of youth and the age of maturity that we see it as now. Yes, well, I think turning 18 for us today is this point where you become an adult, but that's very much a modern concept. So what I wanted to do was apply this modern concept to ages in the past and see what emerged. And what does emerge is that people in the past, the markings of adulthood, if you like, so perhaps getting married or, I don't know, leading troops to war, to battle might have happened in your teenage years, which is quite remarkable when you think about that responsibility. Well, I mean, let's go straight in with young women then, because you detail the life of Matilda in the book. It's chapter two, the second

life that we come across. And I was just amazed by the ages and the life that she'd led. So tell us a bit about her. Yes, Empress Matilda is a wonderful character in the book. So she was born in the 12th century, and she was born as a royal princess. But it's just incredible to think that at a very young age, she would have been, so as a child, she would have been taken away to Europe.

She was married to the Holy Roman Emperor Heinrich V, a man much older than her. And how much older? So he was in his 20s. So it's not the worst example. It's not the worst example. It's not the worst example. But she was betrothed, but then she had been married when she was about 12.

And she's given this immense responsibility as her queen. And she is in charge of ruling Italy in her teenage years, which is quite remarkable. But then what's so incredible about her life is that she thinks this is all mapped out. She thinks she's going to be, you know, in this world, the Holy Roman Emperor. And it all goes wrong because her brother, William Adeline, suddenly dies. And so she's actually brought back to, she's brought back to England. And that happens in her 18th year. So it's an interesting story because even though

her young life seemed completely mapped out and marked out, when she was 18, suddenly with this random death of her brother, a surprising death of her brother, everything changed once again. Yeah. I mean, the horror of a 12-year-old bride is something that we really shouldn't just kind of pass over. And also, we should acknowledge that in some parts of the world that is still happening. For a girl, once she becomes able to bear children, her adult life starts. And that is just painful, isn't it, to consider? Yeah, I mean, it's, but that's why it's so, it's interesting to look at this modern concept, to take the age of 18 and all of these incredible things that people have done,

which just seem impossible for us to imagine that that could have been the norm. But it was, you know, and I think it's a real reflection of how different the past was than it is today and kind of the difficulty that people had to be put through in the past. So, yeah, I think when you read the book, you feel pretty lucky that you're alive now. Yes, hugely, hugely so. Tell us a little bit more about Bede as well. Bede the Venerable, because actually his life's extraordinary, isn't it?

Yeah, okay, I'm glad you asked about Bede. He's one of my favourites. Bede is an Anglo-Saxon. He's born in Northumberland and he was born to an ordinary family. We don't know much about his family, but at the age of seven, he was taken away from his family and he went to join a monastery. So already by the age of seven, he started to be with a new family. But then this terrible thing happens when he's 12 in that this terrible plague strikes the monastery and everyone in the monastery apart from Bede dies which if you actually just think about that if you imagine what that would would be like uh it would

just be incredibly traumatic and it's only him and someone who he teaches who teaches him who survives um but then I think what's really interesting about Bede and how we perceive history often in wrongly is that you think about Bede as a character, and you probably think of him as an old guy with a beard in the scriptorium, but actually, 18-year-old Bede would have been someone who would go down to the river, collect the skins, scrape off the hair from the skins,

like it'd be difficult manual labour, and so when you actually think of Bede, he'd probably be pretty muscly, and maybe quite hunky. Never thought of him in that light. Exactly. So Bede the hunk rather than Bede the venerable.

How do you as a historian go about adding something new to a life like Bede's, which is documented, other people have written about him? Yeah, I mean, it's not that well documented his young life. Most historians would be surprised that I could even write a whole chapter on it. But what I have done is, you know, there are figures from history, which we don't know that much about their young lives. But I don't think that that doesn't mean that we shouldn't just give them attention and give them the space and the time to tell their story. And so often, that means that I am piecing together of what his life might have been like. So I could tell you so many remarkable things about his life in the monastery, the kind of things he would have

seen, the kind of surprises he would have experienced there. And so I really, I mean, I work in a kind of thinking about things as if they're films. That's how I always do it. I imagine the room that people are in, like, you know, can you actually visually see what was going on? And so that's how I try to keep it alive. And that's a big thing I try and do with this book, is really bring these characters to life, that they aren't these kind of old tales of made-up people, which sometimes I think when you talk about Henry VIII,

you sort of get into that mistake. But these were real living people, as alive as you and I. And there's actually a section between each chapter in the book where I have imagined each of the characters coming together for a dinner party. And so they are all in the room together with us. And I hope that helps people imagine that these people were once real and living. I mean, it's also just such a pleasing concept

to celebrate the earlier part of people's lives because throughout history, I think when we learn history at school it's usually either you know on someone's death that you know we start celebrating them or it's the achievements in in adult life it isn't their youth at all but at what point in history would you say that 18 did become youth? Yeah, well, I think it's very recent, really. And I think the big change is when we stopped treating children like mini adults. So in, say, the Victorian period, lots of the early Victorian period, lots of children would have gone to work as soon as they could physically do that work,

whether that be going up the chimneys or something like that. But then in the 19th century they brought in schooling and schooling for everyone and then that gets older and older you know the the time that you have to stay to and the time that you have to be at school and that you you can't you know you leave you to your adult life that gets older over time um and and it's uh the system that we have now which is where you leave at 16 um or or yeah 16 i think it's pretty much um across the uk but um i think it's it's when we have that change in school ending moment that um that that's when that's when this kind of age of

18 becomes the natural you know moment of adulthood um and and it's interesting because the concept of the teenager is a very new thing so it's only in the 50s that or probably post-war sort of time that this concept of the teenager these kind of this group of people in society where they are kind of they have the capabilities of adults but they're not actually required to work um and they're kind of in this in-between phase of life, they suddenly realise that these are really good people to sell stuff to. And so that's why the concept of teenager comes about. And so although I'm talking about, we're talking about teenagers, that in itself is a very modern concept. The idea of 18 in itself as a turning point is a very modern concept. But I think that's

what's exciting is, you know, putting concepts on the on the past and seeing what strange patterns emerge so uh the penultimate chapter in the book and we won't talk about the final chapter because it's very clever and we we shall save it for the reader spoiler alert uh but you do talk about Vivian Westwood yeah and she did something didn't she in terms of culturally appealing to teenagers, I think, where you were at the epicentre of cool. If you were a teenager who loved Vivienne Westwood, it was an interesting connection, wasn't it? Yes, so she in many ways is representing our concept

of the modern teen in the book. And I really wanted to include her because I just love the idea of comparing Vivienne Westwood to Bede and all these other characters. Like, I don't know if anyone's ever done that in a book before. I'm definitely not put them on the same dinner table plan. And at the back of the book, I actually got the dinner table, the seating plan. So you can map it out yourself. But yeah, she's, you know, she is the epitome of cool, of being a teenager. But what's so surprising and interesting, I think, about her is that she was born in 1941. And though she is this kind of modern figure of our modern age,

it's all a product of her very young life, which is the Second World War. Make, do and mend, rationing, these kind of ideas about people like Queen Elizabeth II. She saw that coronation when she was a young girl herself. It's so true because she would have spent her childhood in an age of conformity, and yet she became a real symbol of not conforming.

Exactly, yeah. And I think she kind of breaks free from that and it's almost a reaction from that. But it's how strange that you read about her childhood and it's like reading in a Blighton novel. It's a wonderful kind of Derbyshire countryside and she talks about running around and skipping and all this kind of stuff.

And then she comes out as Vivienne Westwood. Nothing wrong with skipping. Yeah, you know, she loves skipping. She said the best game you can play as a child, she said, was just doing loads of skipping. Bring back French skipping. It's another thing I should bring back. You are, is it fair to call you a social media historian?

Yes, definitely. Okay, well, to anyone listening, I hope there's someone listening, but to the younger people listening who fancy, love history and love social media, and you're making a living out of this. Now you've written this really great book as well. How did you get started? Yes, so I was very lucky that I, well, I did a history degree, a very straightforward history degree.

And then I worked at a TV company called History Hit, which I was working with, I was working alongside Dan Snow so that was a great kind of way to be in the history world um but then I the best thing the best piece of advice that I always give people all the time I get asked this all the time by people who are teenagers or at uni um is social media is an amazing tool to put yourself out there um Because people can, and I've seen it happen with a lot of people, you can grow your own channel, you can talk about whatever you want to talk about, you can put yourself out there as a presenter.

You know, you don't have to go through maybe 30 years of being, you know, either going through the academic route or working in a media company. So I think social media is a great tool. Do you talk about an individual character from history every time you post? so what I normally post is I go around historic locations in the UK and I just show people what's there so it'll be a church or a cathedral um or a castle um or a street you know next door to where we are right now is the old prison where um Charles Dickens's parents were in debtors prison all those years years ago. So there's history everywhere,

and there's history on every street in the country, and every street in every town in the country. And I'm just really passionate about showing people that there is this amazing history on your doorstep. And once you realise that this is here, it enlivens your life. It brings so much joy to people's lives, I find, and I just want to help people do that. Which is the point in history that you would most likely like to have been an 18 year old? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, if I'm going to be really practical and realistic

about it, I'd definitely say in the modern day, because, you know, the kind of most people in history, if they make it to 18, they're pretty lucky to be there. Most people, you know, there are so many kind of childhood deaths in the past. So many, you know, so much infant mortality. So take the example of Mary Anning, who was born in 1799. Not that long ago, her mother gave birth 10 times and only two of those children survived. And so, you know, early death is a very common thing in illness and sickness. But if I wanted to give you a fun answer,

I'd definitely say Geoffrey Chaucer's time, who's someone I wrote about because he's living in the Royal Court and there's lots of kind of jousting and tournaments. Why, he wrote filth. Yeah, well, I was inspired from that. Yeah, well, do you know the first record of Geoffrey Chaucer? It's not Geoffrey Chaucer, the diplomat, or the poet.

It's him wearing this outrageously risque item of clothing, a paltok. And it was a really tight, it was this tunic, and then he had these, like, tight kind of trousers underneath. And it was so revealing and so tight that people blamed it on causing the Black Death. Well, it was a little bit like some of the outfits that were worn at the opening ceremony of the Paris Olympics. Yes, well, Chaucer would have loved that.

He'd have fit right in. Yep, he'd be on that platter of Dionysus, wouldn't he? Alice Loxton with her fantastic book, 18. I would really recommend it, Jane. I don't really gravitate towards history books and I sometimes feel that I should read more history and then that prevents me from doing so but hers is a book that comes at it through such an interesting perspective and it

just makes these huge leaps throughout history so you're never bored or trying to follow the line of the Plantagenets and I would really recommend it and and even as a summer read you know you can just dip in and learn about someone at the age of 18 and count your lucky stars that you're born now in a time of vaccinations because otherwise your chances just weren't great on that slightly depressing note we'd like to wish you a very happy um week or so and those best ofs will come your way whether you like it or not do you want to do tote bags very quickly roll call tote. Tote winners are Sarah Traub and her friend Amanda Grant, Richard

White, Fiona Dalgleish, Angela Morrison, Claire and Amanda, Sophie Walters, Tamsin and Beth. A couple of people have asked if we've announced the next book club selection yet. Have we announced it, Fi? No, but we'd take your suggestions, please. Send them to janeandfi at times.radio. Now, we have to get a wiggle on.

We wish you the very, very best. Speak to you soon. And thank you so much for your continued interest. Keep the emails coming. Enjoy the best of, and don't take that description too literally. Please don't. It's just stuff.

It's just what people say. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury

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