Off Air... with Jane and Fi - No bobble was strong enough to contain the Garvey locks!

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Jane and Fi are gearing up to turn their 'out of office' on but they've still got a show to do! They reveal who will be replacing them in their respective absences as well as discussing unhelpful cesarean partners, tea cakes and jet lag. Plus, they're joined by Darryn Frost AKA 'Narwhal Tusk Hero'. Darryn risked his life to tackle a terrorist on London Bridge in November 2019. He shares his story... Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, a throaty chuckle there, I apologise. Right, welcome to Off Air, where you find us as usual in arctic conditions in our podcast studio. Let's bring in my duffel coat for tomorrow. Oh, it's our final Off Air for a couple of weeks, isn't it, tomorrow? Well, shall we alert people to the timetable of our En Vacances? Shall we do the podcast equivalent of putting your out-of-office reply on? Yes, it's probably quite a good idea. So, we're both off next week. Yes, and then I'm back briefly for three days,

the Tuesday after the bank holiday in August. And you'll be doing the podcast with the lovely other Janes. That's right. The two Janes will do a three-day podcast trip that final week in August, beginning of September. And then you're off and I am gallivanting through the week with a combination of, wait for it. It's a biggie.

It's a big announcement. Drum rolls. Claire Balding and Annika Rice. God, I can't. I might even listen. So I think, I keep getting this wrong. Is it a Claire Balding sandwich or an Annika Rice sandwich? I think it's an Annika Rice sandwich with a Claire Balding filling.

Lovely. So it goes Monday, Annika. Claire, Claire Claire Annika. So we'll be doing the show normal you know three till five with those two lovely ladies and then we'll be doing the podcast as well. Well I mean I think

it's going to be intriguing. I mean obviously I will miss you Jane. That just goes without saying. No it goes without saying. But in terms of the vending machine of female celebrity, I think we've got A1 and A2. There are no topic bars in that at all. No, that's true.

Absolute Snickers and mini cheddars. That's what we got. I would put Annika Rice as an opal for a tube. Oh, okay, interesting. Balding's a four-fingered Kit Kat. She is. Anyway, it will be a very, very good week. would you? a tube yeah okay interesting balding's a four fingered Kit Kat jeez anyway it will be a very

very good week and then the week after that September the 11th is when a whole new term yeah that starts

proper school starts yeah which is kind of fitting isn't it because that's when everything does click back into gear so there'll be

absolutely no mucking around we'll have some fresh white socks on we'll have sharp pencils your geometry set will still contain its protractor and we'll be all systems go yeah and we'll start the long lurch towards the festive season no don't start oh yes i've said it already i've got an early mention in don't don't don't don't now we are speaking of course on one of the happiest days of the year, I think it's fair to say. Too right.

Yeah, because it was quite interesting. Apparently, lots of people were taking the morning off or working from home today, getting in a little bit of sly football watching before they did anything else, and we gathered round the telly here at Times Tower. And I love doing that. So did you come in early so you could see the whole match? Well, I actually got here. I was very, very nervous. I was honestly, and this is no word of a lie,

I was nervous about this. Because I think to lose in the final is probably horrific. But I don't think... But at least you got to the final. Exactly. I truly don't believe it's as bad as losing in the semifinals. I mean, obviously, I'm not a professional sports person. I do not know.

But I would imagine that this, well, obviously to win is our dearest hope. But if not, at least to get this far is brilliant, really brilliant. And it's just a great thing for women's sport and for women's football in particular, obviously. And they do seem like a team that people are happy to get behind. And so that ruthlessness, which is what Serena Eakman calls it, is really good fun to watch, isn't it? Because it means that even... So in the final, let's say we were 4-0 down with 21 minutes to go,

you would still think, I wonder if they can pull this one off because there's something about them. Yeah, you wouldn't completely rule it out. You wouldn't. No, and that's what is very special about this team. And I have to say, quite unique to English football teams that I have watched because the men over the years have flattered to deceive, let's be honest. And sometimes they've just really not... They've got some great individual talents often,

but don't perform as a team. And I think sometimes there were trouble... You know, you'd go to England training camps and there'd be trouble between various representatives of certain clubs. They wouldn't sit with other team members. Liverpool didn't sit with Manchester United and nobody spoke to so-and-so because he only played for Ipswich Town.

I mean, it was all sort of very odd. And I think there's obviously a cohesion about this England women's side, which has really paid off. And so if they do win, would you consider having the seminal hairstyle implanted on your head in celebration? A ponytail.

Yeah, platinum blonde. Yes, I think if you've got hair, if you've been blessed with hair like mine, which is very thick and quite wavy, a ponytail, I have had long hair in the past, but I think there was just so much of it that it was never possible to secure it in a ponytail. People literally just couldn't manage the sheer weight and girth of it.

tale. People literally just couldn't manage the sheer weight and girth of it. No bobble was strong enough to contain the Garvey locks. But anyway, good luck to them and even if they don't manage to actually win, they have done

brilliantly and I think they've brought a lot of people a lot of joy. And who knew that Serena Vigma's middle name was Petronella? Did you? No. I had absolutely no no idea it's a fact bomb i dropped just before the end of the show tonight it is and it's surprising it is surprising yes it is anyway she's one of my heroines now so good luck to her grace says hey lovelies i wonder if you take requests for topics to discuss uh we would yeah i absolutely love listening to your discussions. They keep me going through the week.

Well, Grace, fire some off to us. Yeah, but hurry. Well, actually, we'll keep it on file for September. Yeah. We'll put it in a Petri dish and watch it grow. It's a very, very good question, and thank you for it. And if there is something, and we can anonymise all these, if there is something you are desperate to discuss or hear discussed,

do let us know know because we will take just about anything and actually this really interesting question has come in from a young man, I'm not going to name him but he listened to the podcast where we interviewed the breast cancer surgeon, Dr Liz O'Riordan and Liz, as she said in the interview

has now herself had breast cancer and this is from a bloke who's 36 currently living with his dad and his dad's wife his stepmom who he gets along with really well he says here in the email that she's just a great person sadly after nearly five years in remission her breast cancer has returned and I find myself struggling to talk to her about it. I always fret about saying the wrong thing. He says that she's very open, she's a remarkably strong woman, but I just feel awkward trying to talk to her about it

because she's not a blood relative. She's obviously a lovely person, and our correspondent really likes her, but this is not an area I've ever thought about before, but I think it's really interesting. So he's just looking for advice from anybody out there who might know a bit about it. Well, I think what would be very interesting to hear are the experiences of step-parents in that regard.

Because there are so many blended families, Jane, and step-families and late-in-life marriages, remar remarriages whatever it is and actually it would be really good to hear from some of our older listeners who've got stepchildren who might be able to say the best way in uh you know was when my stepchild said this or i said that or whatever but but also i think just taking out the step bit of it all I think being a young man trying to talk to an older woman about breast cancer full stop may be a little bit difficult in the same way that I think when I was younger Jane talking to any man about prostate cancer might have been difficult just because I don't really know the symptoms. I don't fully understand what might happen further down the line.

You know, it just wouldn't have been a very easy conversation to have full stop. I mean, officially, breast cancer is one of the most widely discussed cancers, isn't it? I know men can get it too, by the way. And you would have thought that there was enough material out there to make it possible. But I think this is a really very specific and very important question that this person's asking.

So I'm not in a position to offer any advice, except that the correspondent to our podcast sounds such a sensitive individual. I can't believe they'd get it wrong, to be honest. I would say something and not worry too much about it. Well, you're sensitive to even a thought. I'm struggling a bit with this. How could I do it really well? Yeah. So that marks you out as a jolly, jolly nice young man.

Old man, middle man, young man we're assuming. Well, yes, young man. But I mean, yeah, just go ahead and say, I think saying something is almost certainly better than not saying anything at all.

There's a really lovely email from Marina who is listening to us in Sydney. Now, Marina, we've got a favour to ask of you. Just don't take the defeat too harshly. Shall we ask her to do that, or just do you want to gloat a bit? No, I don't.

We can pat our Australian friends on the head, can't we? Yeah, let's not do that, Marina. It's lovely that you're listening. And actually, we need to say again how brilliantly well run I think this tournament has been. What actually an incredible job they've done. Yeah, it did look amazing. Yeah, it did.

It looked fantastic. Really great. And at one stage, it did basically turn into a Coldplay concert, didn't it? There was an element of that. As they were playing Coldplay in the interval. Yeah. And everyone had got their phones out, like what you do at a Coldplay concert. Yeah, lovely.

Anyway, look, Marina, your email is absolutely fantastic. In at number one, family holidays. Please spare a thought for this. And for those of us who've flown from Australia every year, sometimes twice a year with babies and toddlers in tow, we invariably have to stay

with both sides of the family, having no money left after paying for the airfare and are at the complete mercy of the judgments of the people we have to stay with. My own personal favourite, which still rankles after 22 years,

was there's no such thing as jet lag, it's all in the mind. Which was shared with me when my 19-week-old baby failed to switch from day to night and cried for the whole five-week stay in the UK. And I really hear you on that one, actually, Marina. I think going to the other

side of the world to stay with your in-laws and then with your family with nowhere else to go, no independent space. Can't imagine. No. So we get you on that. We really do. Where we met, Marina says, living in Singapore at the time and Brussels sprouts, my favourite veg, were hard to come by. So when I saw them at the buffet at the school Christmas party favourite veg, were hard to come by. So when I saw them at the buffet at the school Christmas party, I made a beeline for them, only to find myself beaten to the dish by a very attractive backpacker who had been a Friends Plus One. He too was a huge Brussels fan. So we bonded immediately over our love of the least loved vegetable. And 30 years later, we still enjoy a dish of Brussels when they're in season and often Right.

And the final bit, passing messages across the world, which we're very happy to do. Recently, whilst tidying out a cupboard, I found my friend Helen's decorative milk bottle collection, which she'd left with me when she left Australia to return to England 18 years ago. I thought she was going to say she actually found her friend. Hello, that's where you've been.

I'm not sure I still have Helen's contact details, but I'm sure she will be a fan of your podcast. Can you let Helen know that I'll be in London next month and I'm happy to fly back with the collection of milk bottles so I can return them to the one who loves them most. That's a nice way of saying, I don't want them. If Helen is not listening, she's the fifth of six girls born from 1960 to 1966.

So if one of her sisters is listening, please can they let Helen know? And can you take the milk bottles? How to contact me for the delivery options. Brilliant. You've covered a lot there. Is any part of the country mentioned there for added

accuracy? No, but I think you've got Marina living in Sydney, had a friend called Helen and had some difficult flights with babies. Right, okay. Yeah, that narrows it down sufficiently, I think. Michelle wants to take me to task slightly because she was dismayed by the person she describes as the misogynistic football agent, Sky Andrews, who got a lot of airtime, particularly after he referred to the perpetrator of violence against a woman as a poor lad.

I should explain this was a conversation that I had with Sky Andrews about the Manchester United player, male player Mason Greenwood, who I think a lot of people will know what's happened there, but he is currently not playing for Manchester United. He was charged with a string of offences involving a young woman. The charges were then dropped and he isn't playing, as I say, but there's a discussion around his future and what might happen to him. And Michelle says, I work for a domestic violence charity and I find this kind of narrative in the media which excuses men who carry out acts of violence

against women as concerning, particularly for the message it sends to other young men. We're working to end violence against women and girls and I do become infuriated when clear messages are not given. I appreciate that your next guest, and that was Jim White, the journalist, was clear in his condemnation of the footballer. But unfortunately, the sports agent was given much more of a platform to share his views. Well, actually, I should explain, there's quite a dull explanation here, Michelle. It's just that we, for various reasons, didn't get hold of Jim White until about two and a half minutes

before the end of the programme. And that's why he didn't have as long. He would have had exactly the same amount of time if things had worked out. Sometimes there really is a dull explanation for why things do sound a little uneven. But that is absolutely what happened, isn't it? Yeah. And also i i would say in your defense too that the the opinion of somebody like sky andrews is so valid to hear because it is what so many other people are saying too well yeah and no matter how unpleasant we might find that and as jim white found it too you kind of sometimes got to hear that just so you know what you are then arguing against.

Yeah, yes. Those views, if he's right, those views are out there, deeply unpalatable, though they are, to so, so many of us. Anyway, I don't really want to waste my breath talking about that male footballer this week, of all weeks, actually,

but it was necessary yesterday because it was very much a story. And I'd noticed it's still bubbling around in the headlines today but only because Manchester United still haven't reached a decision about what they're going to do. Lovely one from Jill. She was listening to us yesterday

through some very bad digital radio reception on the A303. It's a nightmare road, Jill. I thought you might be amused to hear a rather sweet story about the birth of my first son 45 years ago by caesarean section under local anaesthetic. The entire operating theatre team exploded in laughter when the baby, having been safely delivered

and nestling in his mother's arms, his father, who obviously hadn't read the book, expectant father, which he had been given, was heard to say to the consultant surgeon, who was busy removing the placenta through the same exit which the baby had taken, sorry if I'm interfering, Mr X, but won't Jill be needing her liver from now on?

All good wishes, Jill. What did he preface it with? Sorry if I'm interfering? Yes, sorry if I'm interfering. But won't Jill be needing her liver from now on? You weren't a doctor, were you, mate? OK, that is... That's very sweet, I think.

Imagine if a consultant had said, no, I don't think she will. Oh, livers are overrated. You've got two kidneys, haven't you? Yeah. But only one liver. Yeah. You need to take care of it.

Sarah says, I really liked your interview with Fats Timbo. I got type 1 diabetes when I was 18 months old and I didn't meet anybody else with it until I was in my 20s. Whilst I hate what social media is doing for society, one of the good things about it is being able to connect with other people who have rare illnesses. My daughter, who was diagnosed when she was eight, now knows loads of other type 1s

and has a genuinely fantastic support network. I also wanted to say that while it's not our responsibility to educate people about our conditions, I have diagnosed three people because I talk about it all the time. So that's interesting. So by talking about it, she's getting the word out and spotting it in other people.

That's very good. Quick one from Liz. Can you please remind me of the Zoe discount code advertised on Off Air? I'm thinking of trying this. Off Air 10. Is that what it is? That is, yeah. I'm a bit sort of out on a limb here because I'm... You're not doing it. I'm doing it in September. I know, and so is

almost the entire team. What's that going to do to our sort of confectionery habit? Oh, goodness. That's a very good point. Well, for a while, I'm going to have to be incredibly tea cake conscious. Tea cake aware. Are you? OK. Hashtag tea cake aware.

Right. OK. I think we should get on to our big guest of the day because he was one of those people who I mean, he describes in fantastic detail the incident with which he is associated and he's associated with it because during it, as you're about to hear, he showed extreme courage in a situation that most of us would run very quickly away from using whatever athletic ability we had at our disposal. He did the opposite. He went towards the danger. And his name is Darren Frost. I suppose in kind of tabloid speak, he's the Narwhal Tusks man, the guy who tackled a terrorist on London Bridge in November of 2019 with the only weapons he actually could see the tusks that he just as he explains here in the interview he just grabbed them off the wall of the fishmongers hall where Darren and a load of other people had been at a conference hosted by an organisation called Learning Together which works with prisoner rehabilitation

and that's still the area that Darren works in now. He was a civil servant working, I think, for the Justice Department in the UK government back in 2019. Now, the terrorist, a man called Usman Khan, was wearing what turned out to be a fake suicide vest. And he took the lives of 25-year-old Jack Merritt and 23-year-old Saskia Jones. Khan was eventually shot dead by the police. Now, Darren came to see us in our studio, which is very close to London Bridge today. So I did ask him if it was at all peculiar or, frankly, frightening to come to this part of the city. Thanks, Jane. Hi, Fi.

Well, thank you for having me. I absolutely love London. So coming into London, I now live in Northampton, but coming into London is always a treat for me. But it does still to this day creates a bit of an involuntary reaction. So I've got some drugs that I take for anxiety and social anxiety, which I never used to have before. But it's manageable. And yeah, I just love the vibrancy of the area, the Borough Market. It's just a wonderful area to come to. Yeah, it is actually a genuinely joyful part of the city. And I'm really glad that you

still have the strength to feel that way about it, to be honest. We are going to talk in some detail about your fantastic prisoner rehabilitation work. But just so people have an idea of how remarkable it is, actually, that you're so committed to that cause, do you mind just taking us through some of the points of that day? The conference itself was at the Fishmonger's Fall, not very far from where we are now, and it was for people who'd just come out of prison and for interested graduates of Cambridge.

Is that correct? So it was a joint project, a project that was ahead of its time. It brought current prisoners together with students from Cambridge Criminology to study together, to do degrees, criminology degrees, I believe, together, which is really incredible because it meant that it pulled down those barriers between students and people in prison. You couldn't get two opposite, more opposite sides of society. And yet in that classroom, they were all students. And what was really remarkable about that program was that they, both sides helped each other and learned from each

other. Because there's stories that no matter how good your degree is you'll never learn the truth of what it's like in prison but here they were sat next to people who were living that truth and I think it was a wonderful wonderful initiative. I wish it could have continued but there was unfortunately a few safeguards and risk assessments fell through and it's a real pity, a tragic end to that story and that programme. The terrorist, we don't need to mention his name again, but the terrorist on that day had recently got out of prison, hadn't he? That's how he was able to be there. Yeah, so I believe he was out for about a year before and he had engaged in the programme

and he did really well whilst on the program. I think the problem came was he then went into a small flat on his own. And as our system of protecting the public, we ensure that people who present a risk, we remove them from those other risk influences. So we removed him from his social group. He tried apparently like hundreds of times to get jobs. He was rejected from all jobs. So he had nothing left to live for. And if we remove all those things from people in a way of controlling, we need to fill it with something. And unfortunately, there was just, he never had the same oversight. He never had anything else to do. And so his existence became quite a miserable one in what I've heard. And that's a really dangerous thing. When you have someone who's got nothing left to

live for, you're not giving them hope, no purpose. And unfortunately, we saw the outcome of that. Now, your behavior on that day, can you just take us through how the affair unfolded and whether what you did was entirely instinctive? I've reflected on this quite a bit, especially in the early months. So on the day, it was a beautiful conference hall. I got there early, so I surveyed the place. I even took videos. So I was really early and I even took a photo inside the hall and the one person sat down there was the terrorist perpetrator I never

knew that at the time I took a photo but I also took a of the entrance area and I knew it really well because I really admired it and so then we had a break later on the day, there were sessions going on, and then there was a break. And I always leave it to the end to go to the loo because I don't want to rush against people and whatever. So I was one of the last to go into the loo. And then the session started again. And we started the session, but the terrorist hadn't returned back to the room. So Jack went out to go and find him. That's your friend, Jack. So Jack married, I hadn't met Jack before the day.

I've heard a lot about him and I've been very fortunate to meet his family. But yeah, he was part of the Learning Together program. He was a Cambridge law graduate, remarkable young man who saw the potential in people and wanted to see them as human beings and give them a chance. So he went down to go in and look for the missing person and went into the bathroom. And unfortunately, that's where that individual came out and attacked Jack and then came out of the bathroom and attacked Saskia as well. We heard, we were in the hall upstairs, about 110 people, and we heard the scuffling and shouts downstairs.

So people were being told to stay in the room and keep calm. But I stood up, I don't know if instinctively, it sounded like people were in real distress. I stood up at the same time as Steve Gallant, actually, who was on his first day of day release in 14 years. I hadn't met him before either, but we stood up simultaneously, ran across the hall and started going down the stairs. Now it's a double staircase, grand staircase, beautiful. He ran down the right and I started running down the left. And as I was running down the left, another woman was running up the stairs, but really petrified. And she was going, oh my God, oh my God. So because of her response, I looked over the balcony and I'd seen Saskia had

fallen and she was wounded. So straight away with the noises going on, I knew it was quite a serious situation. And I was actually going to run I knew it was quite a serious situation. And I was actually going to run into where we'd just been served lunch. And they'd had food served out there, fish pie at Fishmonger's Hall. And I was going to grab a lid of the Bay Marines from the dish that's serving and a ladle, a spoon, as makeshift weapons but as I was going towards there I glanced to my left and down this dimly lit hall were these two two meter long narwhal tusks so I changed my plan and went and grabbed the one on the left and pulled it out of its golden golden hilt and ran down the stairs with it past Saskia who was still on the, now receiving care from a prison officer, Adam. And then I saw Steve had run down with me and he was combating someone by the door to the main entrance.

I couldn't see what it was. And I went to his side with the long narwhal tusk, kind of using it in a spear-like position. And as I go around the door, I see this individual fully clothed in black, heavyset brow, black cap on, heavy jacket, and he's got two 8-inch knives strapped to his hands. Behind him was a young lady who was on the floor. She was lying in the recovery position in a lot of blood, but lying really still. And that was the first moment when I really appreciated the severity of the situation. So then what happened was I held the narwhal tusk at the attacker's belly, just holding him at bay, not attacking him,

but just keeping him at bay. And I think he got quite startled by this and he stopped kind of attacking towards Steve, who was using a mahogany chair to defend himself. And he turned to me and he kind of looked down quizzically at the narwhal tusk because it's quite a strange object to be fair and then he looked back at me back at me and he almost pleaded with me and saying that he's not there for me he's waiting for the police and then when he said that

a lady behind who was giving care to Saskia said oh my god he's got a bomb and that's when he looked down and he said and I've got a bomb and that's quite a moment you you don't really know how to deal with it and my mind started reeling because directly above 110 people in in the conference room he's just said when the police arrive to, that's when he's going to blow this thing. And so I was trying to contemplate what to do and I didn't know what to do. I hadn't made my mind up. And this is how I know that it wasn't just instinct

because I was contemplating the options. They were going really fast through my head. I was going to say, this is a matter of nanoseconds, isn't it, really? Yeah, but what I've realised, I never noticed at the time or realised at the time, is that it really does go like those spider-man movies or the matrix or whatever time slows down massively because i thought all of this took a lot more time i've seen the video on the bridge and i thought that was about a 20 30 second interaction i had with him but i've seen the video and it's like two seconds things slow down massively and what

is really weird was my senses my other senses shut off to anything except for what was happening so all I could hear was his voice or anyone referring to stuff directly relevant so like the siren was going off and I couldn't even hear that that was going off my brain shut that out totally so then I'm contemplating what to do now this man's in front of me there's a woman just behind who I thought was either dead or dying and I knew that we needed to get to her to offer her some assistance because Saskia behind was getting assistance so I was thinking we need to move him away so that people can get to her but we can't threaten him because he'll blow up the box. It was a really chaotic thing.

And the thing that broke my thought pattern was then Steve threw this mahogany chair, which glanced off Khan's shoulder and went to the back. And now Steve stood right next to me, but he's unarmed. And so the attacker starts going towards Steve. And so Steve looks up quizzically at me, and I had to change my thought pattern from how do I prevent this to how do I help the man next to me. So that's when I look at Steve.

I keep the tip pointed towards the attacker's belly, and I pass over the narwhal tusk, and Steve looks at me, and he grabs it. But then I'm in a situation where I'm even closer than you and I are now to this guy with eight inch knives. And I'm thinking I'm not helpful now. So I run back up past Saskia, who's getting care still, up the stairs to get the second narwhal tusk. And as I'm getting that, everyone's coming out of that exact door from the conference hall above. And they're all shocked and startled. And a work colleague comes to me and she starts grabbing my arm saying, don't go, don't go. And I was grabbing the second narwhal tusk. And I just pushed her to the wall with my other hand.

And apparently I heard from another work colleague that I said something like, I'm not having this, I won't let him hurt anyone else or something like that. I can't recall saying that. But I slowly took the next, now these are two meter long things, and I could tell they were quite brittle. And the second one didn't come out of the hilters easily. It felt like it was a few millimeters too long. And I was frustrated in how long it was taking me to get that out. And as I managed to get it out and as I turn around, I see another girl who sat on a chair who's had her arm sliced and she's in a white shirt. So I now understand why everyone upstairs is in shock

because they don't know what's going on. I run back down again past Saskia again and I get down to that entrance hall where we had confronted the attacker and there was shattered novel tusk all over the floor. So I didn't know what had happened to Steve and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what's going on? But I see a foot go out the front door. So I start running to the front door

and people are shouting, lock the door, lock the door. But the doorman, I'm shouting, open the door. So the doorman kindly opens the door for me and I was very conscious about the tip of this narwhal tusk and managed to get it through the door without breaking off the tip or anything like that I get outside onto the top stairs by fishmonger's hall and this is where it's really interesting because I just get tunnel vision and all I can see is the terrorist running and that's all I can see is the terrorist running. And that's all I can focus on.

And I see him. And then I see him running towards crowds of people. And like a shoal of fish, they're all bunching up because they're running onto London Bridge against other people walking in the other direction. And it becomes really bunched. And they start spilling into the road. And then there's a bus that swerves and all chaos. And that was my moment.

I was like, I have to stop him because, well, he's got this bomb. He's waiting for the police. If the police arrive, he's going to blow this up. So I decide to just chase him down the street. As I get down the stairs by Fishmonger's Hall, I get startled by this fire extinguisher that goes off because I'm in tunnel vision. I don't even see John or Steve. And it startles me. And I see and there's this guy unwieldily holding this fire extinguisher, which was quite comical if I look back at it now. And I

see Steve on the other side, but they were kind of grounded in their position. I think they didn't know what to do. So I run past them at full speed. And I think they're still there. And I didn't know that they were following me. As I approach the attacker, he's still running away from me. He can't catch up with any of the public that are running away. So he turns around and faces me. And he sees me running at him. So then he starts running towards me again, running towards me and he lifts both knives up and this is where I know it goes really slow motion because he's running at me I'm running at him full pace with this two meter long thing he's got these padded jackets covering

the the the suicide belt and he's quite protected But because he lifts up both knives to come and attack me, there's about a centimeter of flesh that exposes on his left hand side. And so I aim for that. And yeah, crazy. I stabbed him with a narwhal tusk. And he didn't seem to react so much. He did double over from the impact, but he didn't seem to react so much. He did double over from the impact, but he didn't seem to react so much. But then when I pulled it out, he kind of doubled over again. And so I pulled it out, ready to steady myself for a second attack from him.

But that didn't happen. He didn't attack me because at that time, like it had been choreographed, John Crilly comes and sprays the fire extinguisher toward him. But because there's quite a strong wind coming over the bridge, it perfectly disguises Steve Gallant running down the outside. The timing is incredible because as I pull out that narwhal tusk, the attacker buckles over. So he's leaning forward, but he's got the two eight-inch knives still in his hands. And because of that fire extinguisher disguising Steve, he's now just behind his shoulder and

pulls him off balance. And that's when I do a funny wobble because I don't expect the backup and I jump on his back and outstretch his arms. Darren, I mean, honestly, you tell it brilliantly. It's still clearly so, so prominent in your conscious mind. So thank you for just taking us through that so painstakingly. That was absolutely fantastic, frankly. Thank you very much. We're going to take a very quick break. Can you tell us about your friendship with Steve? Because Steve was with you on the bridge. I imagine there's a lifelong connection between you two now. long connection between you two now yeah so like steve literally he was serving a life sentence and that was his very first day out in 14 years which the emotions he must have been going through extraordinary but him and i interacted and supported each other on that day without speaking

we just somehow worked really well together and we formed formed, there's a real bond that forms when I passed him the narwhal tusk. And there was a moment when I was holding the attacker down on the bridge with the bomb facing up to me, his hands outstretched behind him. And the police were shouting to me to get off. And Steve came back into the line of fire, grabbed me on the shoulder and he said,

okay, mate, now, let him go now, the police are here. And I shrugged him off because I thought he still had a trigger and could blow up the bomb. But that courage of him to come back into the line of fire and it just showed, like... And so from then I started supporting Steve as much as I could. I tried to support John Crilley as well because I know that they won't get the same opportunities.

No, John Crilley was also an ex-offender yeah yeah so um yeah he was convicted on joint enterprise and the only person to ever be um acquitted of that so yeah really remarkable stories there um and then yeah I'd met Steve a few times in prison and um we decided to try and tackle something even more challenging which is prison leaver homelessness. He's got a lot of expertise within prisons. I've been going in and out of prisons for many years and really frustrated at what currently happens and there's only so many times you can complain about it and we decided to try and do something about it. And very briefly what have you been able to do? So we've launched a six bedroom place in Northampton. We're working with HMP5 Wells, as well as Northampton Probation and DWP,

they've all been very supportive. And we've housed four guys. We've got three in the house at the moment. We're expecting our next two over the next two months. So we will, we're trying to take it slowly and deliberately. But we're also doing it a very different way. The men in five wells have worked on the model. So they've come up with it. It's called social prescribing, where they say what they need to be successful when they get out. And so rather than being an authoritative figure like probation or anything else, insisting what they do, they kind of self-manage. They've got the ability to adjust rules or change rules, etc. And it's proving really successful so far. And if you'd like to know more about what Darren went through

and about exactly what he did, and also about just how brave Steve and Lucas and John were as well, then you need to watch a Channel 4 documentary. It's coming your way on Thursday 24th August at 9 o'clock and then it'll be on all four online after that. It's called London Bridge Facing Terror. And Darren was one of those people that, well, we're not going to forget him, are we?

Because he was just extraordinary, actually. Really incredible, Jane. get him over because he was just he's just extraordinary actually really incredible jane and you know the the amount of detail that he can still remember from that day i think is testament to just what an extraordinarily horrific experience he went through because he can still you know relive it almost in real time and you just feel so much sympathy, don't you, for someone who is caught up in something that they never expected to happen. And, you know, their life is changed

and lives were lost that day. He is part of that forever. I thought he was such a... He just had such a big heart, Jane. You know, he's kept in touch with the families of the two students who were murdered. He's doing something good, You know, he's kept in touch with the families of the two students who were murdered. He's doing something good, you know, still in the same kind of arena. You can understand why a lot of people would just go, I don't want anything to do with restorative justice or rehabilitation

of offenders ever again. I just thought he was just an amazing human being. Yeah, I think in general, the human population does divide between people who have extraordinary courage and the rest of us. And I'm in the rest of us because I know I don't have physical courage. But I'm hugely admiring of those who do and display it. And he had the opportunity, as he said in that interview, to scarper. And he didn't do it. He went back, armed admitted, slightly preposterously, with another narwhal tusk.

You actually could not make this stuff up. You don't need to because it was all too real. But, yeah, huge respect for Darren and for the other people involved. And, of course, we do need to say that the friends and the families of Jack and Saskia will not be over what happened that day. So they were very, very young, those two, obviously, and also just doing brilliant work themselves. And I'm sure they would have gone on to achieve a great deal.

So it's a great shame. Anyway, we really do love getting your emails and perhaps you could help Grace along with some suggestions. If you've got your own ideas for topics we could discuss. I'm sure Grace has, which is why she contacted us. I'm looking forward to hearing what they are, Grace. So pitch in, everybody. Jane and Fi at times.radio.

I'm going to go and put a jumper on. It's still very, very cold in here. I might be getting a chill. Maybe you could give me a hug. No. I'm not a lioness. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

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