Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Noah Wyle for prime minister?

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Welcome to Tuesday - and to the podcast, if you are a decent man or a kind woman! Jane and Fi tackle some biggies today: Simon Cowell in a cot, oboe-face mishaps, casually dated photographs, hard trousers, kitchen storage, and standard premium train travel. Plus, writer and academic Katriona O'Sullivan discusses her new book 'Hungry'. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Tuesday. Lots of comparisons being made between the UK and Italy, because Italy was always changing its Prime Minister. They've had Georgia Maloney for quite some time now, and we're becoming them. So if Kirstama goes, what will we have had six Prime Ministers in seven years or seven Prime Ministers in six years? We first came to Times Radio in the Liz Truss. No, she was, yes, she was still Prime Minister, wasn't she? No, I think we came, didn't we come in the dying embers of Boris Johnson? No, because we came after the Queen had died and Liz Truss was Prime Minister when the Queen died. Did we? Yeah. Yeah.

It's all a bit hazy in my mind. But yes, we were definitely here for the demise of Liz Truss, so we then would have been here for the arrival of Rishie Sooner. Yes, yeah. We then were party to a judge. general election. That's right. And the election of Sir Keir-Starmer. Yeah. But in the days before Boris Johnson, so how many years was that? This is a very helpful in erudite run-through of prime ministers. So hang on, we would have gone from... Can you hear the gogs. I've got a very, very sleepy brain today. Yeah, well... It's weird, actually, because I had an awful lot of sleep last night.

Well, our colleague Felix has just said that we're... I don't think you were here for this. He said, We're getting like Italy, except without the climate and without the weather. Which is unfair on British food, because it's got a lot better. And also, I think pasta can be a bit to say me. But also, I read an article last night on the tube on the way home. I know women of the people on public transport. Which said already that we're going to have one of those blisteringly hot summers. Are they saying that already?

Yes, because of the El Nino, the position of it at the moment. So it's going to be another 40-degree fandango. Oh no. So we might be closer to Italy than you think. Okay, right. Anyway, I'm just going to look this up so as it's going to annoy me. How many Prime Ministers have we had in the last seven years?

It's a very simple question. While my colleague deals with that, I'll just bring in a couple of quickies. A very, very quick, lost in translation from Helen, listening to Linda's email about her Austrian boyfriend mistakenly saying, up yours to her parents, reminded me at the time my French pen friend told me

his hobbies were nature walks and going up his grandma. It's brilliant. That's brilliant. Right. Helen, thank you. And six prime ministers in ten years. Excellent.

So if we get another one, it is seven prime ministers since 2016. Thank you very much. Are we becoming ungovernable? Well, I just, I don't want to reiterate the point that I made on the podcast yesterday, but I'm going to. We just have an insatiable desire for change and an expectation that we can change, what are intractable problems. You know, the soil was leached by the last government, the last shade of, different shade of government.

So, you know, you can't just plant trees in it and expect everything to be absolutely fine by next year. That's as far as my farming analogy, my orchard analogy grows. Shame on you. You don't even listen to the archers. You can't talk about farming. No, I can't talk about farming at all. But, you know, we can't, there just isn't a,

magic money tree and I completely agree with people who are unbelievably frustrated by the fact that the pace of change does seem glacial and people who are disappointed by having voted for a different government and not having found anything different in their lives. I completely get that. I'm frustrated myself but I'm not sure what the under new management is actually going to bring to the ailing restaurant. I wondered what memories you had of your interview. with West Streeting, because he is the likely lad. I mean, as we speak, by the way, Kirstarmer's very much in position and says he wants to carry on governing.

But Little West Streeting, I don't know why I say little, he's obviously a lot taller than me, the current health secretary, wrote a memoir some years ago, you know, bold move, really, although there are reasons why you might want to do that, I guess. And you interviewed him, and he has an amazing family backstory, doesn't he, really very unusual?

Very, very unusual, very, very loved. So I remember having read the book, my overall impression of what was definitely a cash-strapped childhood in southeast London was actually who was completely surrounded by love, like multi-generational family. And he had really strong connections with lots of different family members. But not necessarily the, you know, he wasn't born into a mum, dad, nuclear family set up. So all hailed him for that. It's a good book and it's very readable. But he definitely, he had the air of a man, you know, when you ask a politician,

anything about their ambitions. And there just is a humility that falls upon them that wasn't there before the question. You know, and they go, no, I couldn't bother. No, I'm not chasing leadership. No, I don't want that for myself. I don't want to be in the limelight. I'm extremely happy here. And you just think you've changed whilst answering that question.

It's not delivered in the same way that. the rest of your very authentic answers were delivered in. But there's no shame in being ambitious, Jane. Well, there is if you're a woman, because they always get clobbered for it, don't they? Wouldn't it be great if a very determined, ambitious young politician when asked that kind of five, six years, you know, before they were ever going to be in the position to actually be in a leadership challenge, if you ask them, are you aiming right for the top?

And they just went, yep, it would be great. It would be great. I think I'd be really good. You just watch me. You just watch me, love. Where's I have? Can I just say, though, that I do think he has been a good health secretary. I think the stuff that he's done for women's health is way...

Well, he said things. Has anything actually changed? It seems more... Well, he's put money. He's put money into maternity services. He's put money into... There was just a more coordinated approach to women's health. healthcare that was introduced, actually at the end of the last government, but he's put more money

into that. I just like the fact that he's prepared to talk about it. I can't really name you a previous male health secretary. No. Who has made as much of that? I think Andy Burnham was health secretary. Andy Burnham? Who's he? Can we check that, Eve? Um, thank you. Uh, yeah, well, quite. He's got, my late mother always liked Andy because he was from Liverpool and he had those lovely eyes. He does have lovely eyelashes. Um, lovely eyelashes. Um, lovely eyelashes. But do you, but do you, think that that's what the country needs the eyelashes? We're waiting elucidation. Here we go. From June 2009 to May 2010. He was Health Secretary. Yeah. Yeah, he was Health Secretary. Not a long stint that, isn't it? No. Well, they lost the election, didn't you? Yeah. Oh, did they

in 2010? Yeah, yes, they did. Oh, God, it's honestly, we really could do with some of that. Italian sunshine, lots of food, and then maybe our minds will become a little sharper. But in fairness to us, a lot has happened. After the first couple of decades of our lives in which very little happened, really, from what I can recall, it's all just started to happen relatively recently. I need to ask this question from Sophie, who has headlined her email a really boring question. It's so not because I live this. Sophie asks, I have a dull question for the hive. What is the best way to store sourcepan lids? I know I've earmarked that email too because I'm with Jane. It's not.

Okay. Should we proceed? I'm 64, she says. I can honestly say I've struggled with this question for most of my adult life. I'm in retirement now and I have the time to ponder such issues, usually at around four in the morning. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. While I'm here, did you know you can keep avocados from going brown by keeping them in water in the fridge? This works for a whole one or one that has been halved already. It seems to keep them from ripening more so they'll last for a good while. I'm really hoping for a good answer, read the sourcepan lids from Sophie. Sophie, thank you. for that and you have well you've struck a chord. What are you doing with yours? Well the reason it appealed to me was that I have a massive issue with a particular draw and I keep my sports pen lids

inside this drawer usually the wrong way up but very often usually about twice a year and at a very inconvenient time the draw blocks and I can't get it out and then have to consult one of those men in a polo shirt on YouTube. I've always got some ideas about what to do in the event of this crisis Do they say you've got to open the drawer above? No, because mine is... And to creep round. Well, you could do, but it is the top drawer. Oh my God, who stores their saucepans in the top drawer?

Fee an idiot. How is your top drawer deep enough? Well, look, no one needs to know the dimensions of my kitchen. And it is something that, honestly, we glide by and the drawer opens relatively smoothly for large parts of the year until that day dawns when it all gets stuck. when it all gets stuck and I get incredibly angry and very, very hot.

And I just can't, I can't bear it. Can we get back to the specifics of our listeners' query about how you're separating the pans from the lids? Because I think this is a universal problem in a kitchen. I've got more pans than lids. Have you now? I've got more... Have you got more lids than pans? Why would you?

No, because I've got three frying pans. And I don't really understand why. I don't fry food very often. do. She's got, she's always frying up. Yeah, I'm doing my fried bread at home. Just for me. Yeah, so, well, it's easy to stack the frying pans. They're different sizes.

But I think the saucepan lids on your more boiling saucepan are very tricky things. Because the handles get in the way of being able to just stack them nicely like you would a plate. So I don't have a deep enough draw to be able to do what I've seen some other people do, which is you put the lid upside down. on top of the biggest pan and then you can just stack and stack.

Gosh, that's a good idea. But you have to have a very, you know, or you've got to have... You've got to have the depth. Yeah, you've got to have sauce pans nice enough to be on the outside. Yeah. And mine aren't. Mine definitely need to be in a drawer or in the dishwasher, all covered in steam out of sight.

Yes, very much so. Okay. So, yeah, it's a very tricky one. Yeah. Well, thank you, Sophie. We'll pop it out to the hive. Yeah, absolutely. Get people thinking.

Never mind geopolitics. What about your saucepan lives? Yeah, it's a much more pleasing thing to think about it at 3am. Isn't it? Sourcepan. Shenanigans. Dear Sisters in the radio, now this came in,

I think a couple of weeks ago, actually, yes, it did, on the 5th of May from Laura. And I've been meaning to read it out since then, Laura. So here we go. I was having my... By the way, Laura is on maternity leave

at the moment and has sent us the most lovely, lovely picture of Olaf and his dimpley knuckles. And he's wearing those really fantastic high pants. Very, very high pants on a young baby.

Like Simon Cowell. He does. He's definitely Simon Cowl in a cot. Sorry, he looks absolutely beautiful. He is. He's lovely. Just pretend we didn't say that. I was just having my joyful five minutes of peace last night,

brushing my teeth and taking out my contacts in silence alone. It's those moments that matter, doesn't it? I remember being incredibly at ease, having a smear test. I'm lying down. Someone's paying you some attention. Nothing is a little bit. expected of me. Well.

And we're struck by the conversation about going back to work. I'm a freelance classical musician and my partner has the same job pre-baby. By the way, Olaf is almost six months. My job was so, so my identity. And for the first few months of maternity leave, I felt such resentment towards my partner for being able to continue with music and his career whilst I could barely pick up the violin.

However, six months in and I've experienced quite a profound shift, I still love playing, but the strong feelings of ambition have gone, and I don't feel too bothered what I do so long as I get to be with my son. I would love to take my time and allow myself to melt into this new identity and rhythm of life, but I feel pressure from society and myself to get back to it. I'm supposed to be going on tour in the summer, and the thought of being away from Olaf is horrid. I have the most wonderful partner, who I'm sure would understand if I decided not to go,

but I also feel that at the age of 40 I want to be earning a decent living and contributing to the household the government maternity allowance for freelancers is really a bit shit. Yes, it really is. I'm not sure if any of this made sense and I don't really know what I'm trying to say I'm so sleep deprived I can barely remember my own name.

And then Laura sent a really lovely follow-up a couple of hours later saying further to my last email I just wanted to note that I am aware of what a privileged position I am in to be able to even contemplate taking my time or exploring this new identity as a mother. Do you know what, Laura, there's absolutely no need for you to apologise for what is a shared experience around the world, around the demographics, around absolutely everything.

And does it make it any easier if you don't have any choice in the matter? I don't think it does. I think your feelings are still there. But I don't think it's indulgent when to pursue them. I completely understand what. Laura is saying and it's so difficult Jane isn't it to balance what you need in the moment when your babies are babies and it's not for long with what you know you will need further down the line your thoughts please well I for what it's worth I don't know anything I think she

sort of answered her own question there if indeed it was a question I don't think I don't think she wants to leave him so I probably wouldn't is that is that your take on what she's say? Yes. So I would I'd say if you don't want to go, don't go because if you find yourself, especially if you're away, a long way away. Miserable. You find yourself really miserable. Then playing the violin is going to be miserable too.

It's going to be doubly, doubly miserable. And you will imagine that the time that you're missing with your baby is time that you're never going to get back. Unbelievably important time. All of that kind of stuff. And to some people it is and to some people it's really not. Your baby will be fine. Olaf will be fine, I'm sure.

won't remember any of it. No, he won't. Know that. But if you, I personally think, if you've got the choice, then you should do what you want to do in your kind of maternal heart. Because the rest of your time with your children, Touchwood, is a very long time. The baby time is a small amount of time. And if you're in a profession where you are going to be able to go back

and be something of your former self, that is so glorious and wonderful. And, you know, that will come around soon enough. And I'd just wait, Laura, I'd indulge in all the high pants and the drama and the night feeds. And also sleep deprivation, I think, if you're doing a job where you have to perform is an absolute bloody nightmare. So I'd say, wait a bit of time if you can. And don't beat yourself up about it because you've got yourself into that position, haven't you? Where you might be able to buy yourself a bit of wiggle room. I thought you were saying you got herself into trouble.

By falling pregnant. You've had sexual activity without protection. Look where it's got you. Also, if you had just been the couple who were knocking the watsits out of each other in my front garden, using a condom after their spicy mayonnaise. You wouldn't need to hear me on the podcast. I do. I also, it really doesn't matter what other people think or what decisions other people have made

because you don't know what's going on in their life or in their head. Oh, I think that's so easy to say, so hard to do, Jane. I think the world, I think it feels like the world is peering in your window sometimes. Sometimes, I know. Especially with your first baby. Especially with your first. And everyone's got bloody advice for you as well. I mean, it's true.

I mean, sometimes I do think it is extraordinary that you're allowed to leave hospital with a baby, really. I think there should be a service where you can just stay in for the first five years. Well, the lying in hospitals. Yeah, exactly. We're back to, we've talked about before. It's just a very, very, very sensible thing. Anyway, Laura, does any of that help? I don't know.

Other people in the hive will have much more coherent thoughts about your situation. But do what feels really, really right for you, right in the heart of your uterus. And there'll be nights and days when you really regret that choice as well, when you just think, I want to be off with the orchestra. You know, where's a vending machine at 2.30 in the afternoon and a nice, quiet place to sit down on my own. So, you know, it's a bit half a dozen of one, six of the other.

Yeah. But looking at young Olaf, I think he's well worth spending time with And who knows he could, I mean, it's very plausible, in fact, that he will end up Prime Minister Because it looks as though most people in Britain will get the chance. So why not, why not him? And if you want a kind of pseudo-granny to come and help you look after Olaf, I'm around. Very available on Fridays, very happy to squeeze a baby. Let's talk about, oh, there's another musician.

So there's a sort of, yeah, for once that this sounded quite produced. We've got a musical crowd out there, haven't we? We have. I think we have to leave this gentleman anonymous, I will. I'm a professional musician who works regularly in opera houses, symphony orchestras and musicals. Jane's description of a few minutes of barely audible violin scraping followed by many, many minutes of thumb twiddling,

rang painfully true. It is an odd working life. Especially in opera and ballet orchestras, there's so much sitting around, which is probably why these groups are known the world over for being some of the most talented drinkers, out there. Look carefully into the pit after a loud passage, and you may well spot some trombonists or percussionists sneaking off to the pub if they have a longer break. Until the very recent past,

it was common for the stage management to phone the closest pub so a bell could be rung, letting the musicians know they soon needed to play again. Jane well-meaningly said that professional orchestras are full of talent, and although I know it was a compliment, actually that word rankles. It's skill, not talent. Talent is something God-given that you're born with. Skill is only achieved by tens of thousands of often mind-numbing hours, sitting alone in a room, doing something over and over again, making it 0.1% better every time. When you listen to a professional orchestra, you are listening to the result of millions of dedicated and deliberate practice hours. And jobs in professional orchestras are difficult to get. The business is brutal,

the pay doesn't even come close to recognising the decades of dedication and sacrifice required to reach and then maintain that level of performance. That's kind of what I meant to say, anonymous. So thank you for saying it because he does say, I'd rather you keep me anonymous, but thank you for supporting these art forms with your patronage. Thank you so much, anonymous, from recognising this. I am indeed a patron of the arts. Fee is right about obo face, even the most beautiful people can be instantly ruined by that unmistakable look

of painful eye-popping constipation I know of a colleague who once had a very unfortunate mid-concent mishap while playing the night after a dodgy curry luckily we wear black trousers the glamour right thank you that was great

thank you dearie dirty me that's horrible go on sorry what are you going to say I was only going to say that I went for one of those full health check thingies. God, I mean, I think probably in my mid-30s. And I still had the lung capacity of like a 17-year-old, even though I'd smoked a lot, Joan, smoked for 20 years by then. And the doctor said, you know, that is remarkable knowing how much I smoked and stuff. And he said, actually,

if you, if you're a swimmer or you play a wind instrument, your lung capacity, because it's just huge when you're younger, way, way bigger. of, you know, well-exercised than other people's lungs. So I have a lot to thank the oboe four, but not obo-face. Hobo-face is terrible. Is it? Yeah, I will pay attention

next time I'm patronising the arts. We saw obo-face. We were watching a little bit of David Attenborough's 100th birthday celebration, which I thought was beautifully done, but there was a man who looked like he just wanted to go to bed. I mean, there was standing ovation. He was there in a box at the Royal Albert Hall.

And after the kind of... And after the kind of third standing ovation encore, happy birthday, and he stood up and waved, and I'm sure he was very grateful to everyone who turned up. But he also just looked like someone who was just a hundred years old, and it was nearly 10 o'clock. Good grief. Exactly.

Honestly, I had to stop watching an episode of the pit at 10 to 10 to 10 last night and just go to bed. Fair enough. Which limb was ripped off in this edition? It was terrible last week. Was it? But honestly, it's such a good show. It's so good.

There's something, for fellow sufferers, viewers of the pit, it's something about, it's not just no while. He's the lead actor. And I'd never seen him in ER. He was lovely in ER. He's lovely in this. But it's that combination of incredible skill, compassion, and vulnerability that makes him just one of those characters

that you just want to be alongside. Skill, compassion, vulnerability. Back to Wes. Now, old adverts, old photos, this one comes in from Michael Dennis. I just heard Fee voice her nostalgia for when we all used to watch the same commercials. I share this and lament the atomisation of TV viewing in general. While there are positives about the multiplicity of programming we now have, there was also much to be said for the curated schedule.

Indeed, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the losses outweigh the gains. However, with regard to both young and old, watching the same adverts. It did make me think of being a child in the 1980s. When heterosexual sex and romance, I'm using terminology I couldn't have articulated then, but regarding thoughts I had nonetheless, seemed to mean A, spending the evening at a restaurant, followed by B, going back to an apartment where C, an LP of saxophone music would be played, and D, real coffee would be drunk. But crucially, the woman always kept her bra on. Oh, it's brilliant. Yeah, this is brilliantly put, Michael. As a young gay boy, I knew in Turchase,

that this wasn't a world I would ever experience. Well, no, you'd be on proper coffee. Wouldn't be proper, proper coffee, Michael? I can tell. Coffee beans was something I didn't see in the flesh until I was well into my 20s, though that's the least of it. But this template so often played out held a sort of dispassionate fascination for me,

not dissimilar perhaps to the austere Olympian oruteur of Castral Gt. On a different note, the other week Jane lamented people not writing on the back of family photos following the death of my beloved Irish grandmother a decade or so ago myself and my sisters visited some family in Ireland. I found myself looking through an album at one point which amongst other things contained a photo of me at less than a week old,

which I'd never seen before, a peculiar thing to find as an adult. One photo had written on the back the detail taken a fortnight ago, another had taken last Thursday. It's brilliant. It's all that help. It's a great imagine if archaeologists had that as a find. But these were both capped by a slightly skew with photo of the kitchen table

with a torso sitting at the end and on the back was written. The last photo of dear old dad and she couldn't even get his head in. All the best. Well, Michael, all the best to you. You're all fabulous right again. Taken last Thursday. Oh, that's price. There's a sort of logic there, isn't there?

but I understand what they meant, but it's so unhelpful. It's a little date tease. Now, I'm getting a lot of support for tummy time, which I'm very, very proud of. No, you're not. There have been at least two emails. This is from Kate. She finds herself in Nottingham.

I am firmly with Jane on the subject of comfy trousers at the end of the day and could never relax in a hard trouser. And I love this. This email is called hard trousers. I picked it. On the subject of swimming costumes, spare a thought for me this Sunday as I'm having to accompany my six-year-old to a swimming party where I'm sure I'll be one of the only mums in the pool

with a group of squealing five-and-six-year-olds and a load of school dads wish me luck. Oh gosh, yes, that's not one for the faint-hearted, is it? No. You'll be fine, Kate. This is from Patricia, the grammar pedant. She's back. A quick note on getting changed when arriving home,

either from work or simply out. Fee said she found it bizarre that Jane should be to change in something more comfortable. I completely concur with Jane and most people I know do so too. There is nothing bizarre about feeling comfortable and relaxed in a pair of leggings, joggers, shorts.

I would never wear shorts unless the temperature is quite literally above 38 Celsius. I don't find it bizarre. I just find it a bit vulgar. The first item I shared is my watch says Patricia. A friend of mine says it's her bra. Yes, I'd never do. I've got it as regular

the listeners who know I simply do not venture around my home unsupported in that department, but I will put on comfy trousers. Just an update, Jane, on the price of a senior rail card, says Patricia, helpfully. It's £35 now for a year or £80 for three years. But if you are a regular user of rail travel in the United Kingdom, I'm going to say that's still good value. Yeah. It really is, because you get third off everything.

That is good. And have you ever not had the right card with you or been on the right? train and had one of those terrible fines. No, no, because I have it on my... It's an app. It's an app, okay. But you could still run the risk of having a fine if you let it slide, if you didn't renew it in time.

I do think those fines are evil. Just because I wear easy trousers in the home doesn't mean I'm going to let my senior rail card slide. I won't. No, but I'm sure lots of people do, and then the fine is like 130 quid. I mean, it happens to... It happens to so many people on these rail cards.

As soon as I get out of here, I'm going to check it. Yeah, if you're on the train, you know, that left two... minutes to nine instead of the nine o'clock that you're allowed to be on it and you know there doesn't seem to be very much leeway it seems to be an extra money making exercise for the trains to catch people and i've just seen it happen to too many young people who really genuinely can't afford to pay the fine and you know they i think they probably haven't been deliberately mugging the railway companies you do occasionally come across somebody in uniform who's actually helpful and prepared to So rarely these days

Well, do you? I've seen more officious Rail. Stewards than kind. Don't worry about it. I'm going to say they're very friendly on a Vanty West. Okay, but you're travelling in first class

so they always are not. Not always. If I can get into the quiet coach, I'm very happy with that. Okay, very happy. And it's standard premium. Again, we're women of the people. Smart motorways. hope your weekends were marvelous.

Me and my pals, Julia, a.k. Swingball Nann's granddaughter and Michelle, aka Mother of the Bride. I love all these very regular, lovely correspondence. We're saying only yesterday how we hadn't been in touch with you girls lately, not through lack of stimulating content. Just couldn't be asked. You're our kind of listener.

You're in the top ten there. However, these complete incredulity at the continued existence of so-called smart motorways fired me up to add my two pennies worth or bit from the comfort of my bed where I'm snuggled in with Nancy. Nancy is the cone of shame gallery instigator. So this is just superb. How on earth their continued existence after the first death,

let alone the many that have followed, is beyond comprehension. All those lives needlessly lost. I can't begin to imagine what their families are going through. Surely it's a no-brainer to reinstate hard shoulders to avoid future tragedies. What on earth is going on? Do we really need to get where we're going a few minutes faster? I think not.

On the contrary, I think we all need to slow down and take a minute. But by the way, I wholeheartedly concur with the Doolas mantra recently bespoke. I can't say that. Recently bestowed. There we go. And the image of Jane's postwork foray into the fridge for her slice of cheese before donning her easies and settling down for Chateau-Di. feels with joy makes me chuckle.

Must away time to get up and get to it as in make another cup. So Sarah, thank you for sending that. You know, I just really, really like that point. There's something weird going on, isn't there? Because we do all need to slow down, especially on motorways. And the 20-mile-an-hour zones

that have been instigated, particularly in Wales, I know that they're unpopular there, they have been absolutely proven to reduced traffic, deaths and incidents. So on a motorway, you're creating more room on a motorway where more people are going to take to their cars at the same time as you're telling people to drive much slower. So which is it? Make your minds up. Yeah, just make your minds up. And also, I'm completely with you, when the first person died as a result of their car breaking

down on a smart way to way, that was the time to go. What a stupid idea? This doesn't work. So I think the government would be much more popular if they did sensible things like that. Well, have we still getting loads of emails about driving, aren't we? So I just think just before we go, or introduce the guest, actually. What stage are we at? What do you mean? We're booking a guest, aren't we? The guest most recommended about driving.

Can we put your microphone on, Eve? I know what's matter with her. Apologies, I thought you were talking about today's guests. Well, I'm talking about both. Take as much time as you need today. Okay. Do as you wish. I'm quite hungry.

And I'm going to make contact with Dr. Amir Khan today. Great. So he's going to come on. He's the... Yes, and hopefully we'll get him for a Friday. Bonus. Oh, great, brilliant. So he has been recommended by so many people as a doctor who's taken a very keen interest in symptoms of the menopause. Right. And he's got an explainer which you can find very easily up on his Instagram about why hormonal changes are connected specifically in women with a fear of driving. And particularly also things like going over bridges, going through tunnels. So so many people have said he's absolutely terrific. And also Jane, I mean, you know, how fantastic to welcome. to the podcast a man taking an interest in female health. Let's do it. Yes, that's true.

A bit like your mate, Westreeting. Thank you, Eve. I was off on Thursday. You were off on Thursday. I think came to a bit ahead. Yes. Yes. Yeah, so no, don't, no, we're not, we're not cross with you. Well, Jane was a little bit ticky there, but I think you're okay. Tony says one of the best things I've done since retiring is that I took an Institute of Advanced Motorist course. Now, quite a few people have recommended this. Though I've always driven when necessary and scientific. to work most days. I have never enjoyed sitting behind a wheel. Whilst the only collision I've caused was from reversing into our dentist car park's brick wall, I still recall with horror occasions where my lack of road sense took me and my family to within a whisker of a nasty

collision. Can I just say it's very rare that Tony's a man and Tony is saying this. Now I don't know about you fee. I've not come across that many men who would say that about their own driving and I'm impressed with your honesty, Tony. I really am. You have to pay for this course, he says, but since all the instructors are volunteers, each session of up to two hours works out far cheaper than a so-called normal driving lesson. I found the course quite stressful early on, but with time, the course price allows you as many lessons as you need before you're encouraged to sit the mainly practical test. Not only did I become more confident, I gradually broke a lifetime of bad driving habits. I've also come to enjoy driving. Right. Caviat, which applied to two very helpful

volunteer instructors in my local group, I very occasionally had to challenge unthinking sexist remarks made by men considerably older than me. There are obviously women volunteer's instructors too, although it's a deliberate policy of the charity to pair you with a different instructor as often as possible. That's interesting. Yes, I think, hang on, do I understand what he's saying there? So I guess it's just to make sure that you don't start to feel so comfortable only with one person. Oh, I see. That you would then become uncomfortable again if you had a different passenger in your car. Is that it? I think so. Tony, you can tell us more about that, just in case

we've got the wrong, or I've got the wrong end of the stick there. He does say something nice at the end here, if he, in the ever-expanding world of podcasts, some have inevitably fallen by my listening wayside, but yours is just too much fun and suitably serious when it needs to be for it to have ever left the top spot. Brilliant. Thank you Tony. And do get back to us if we've got that little bit wrong there, but I'm really interested in that. It's the IAM course, the Institute of Advanced Motorists. Sounds good. We are a podcast that welcomes decent women and kind men. We've been doing that since 2017. We've had a lot of male mentions, haven't we, in this podcast. This will seem seamless, but we've just got a huge chunk of the podcast out.

But it'll all make sense. Yes, it wasn't rude or anything. No, not at all. It's just I've preempted a shout-out. So if that's you, Eve has structured it, so we don't forget. This one comes in from Emma, who says, love everything about the podcast, always chuckling along with you both. I've lived and worked in Germany for the past 30 years. So it's great to hear about what's going on in the UK. I'm from the north of England, not Liverpool. Oh, what a shame. But have also lived in Germany. lived in southwest London for a couple of years, so love all the London talk. I just wanted to email to let you know.

I'm also in a book club together with some other British friends, and I would ask you to give a shout-out to one of them, Lizzie, who recently had a shoulder replacement and is recovering. She's already had two hip replacements and two knee replacements. So this is her fifth replacement. Yes, her daughter calls her the bionic woman. She remains very positive, and when I suggested she listened to your podcast to help with the boredom of recovery time,

I found out she's already a fan. All good women are. Another member of the Fire Strong Book Club also checked you out and is now a listener. We're working on the other two. You mentioned Germany regularly in the pod and it really is a great place to visit. My family and friends return again and again.

The countryside is beautiful. The weather is usually good when people head to the local lake or Lido for a swim. Most people speak really good English. I work in a university specialising in wine-making. For heaven's sake, Emma. Good grief. And growing.

and can say with authority that the wine is also fantastic. Well, we've talked about this before, haven't we, why people don't tend to go on holiday from this country to Germany. Get over yourselves. Yeah. It was a long time ago. You haven't been there, have you? No, but I'm going to Austria.

Oh. But my third visit to Austria this summer. Right. Okay. Oh, yes, because you went to the health bar. I did. I went to the very, very odd, very odd medical spa on a big lake in Austria. and yeah

it's all in the book it's all in the book oh yes never a bad time to mention the book what's it called did I say that out loud yeah yep

so yeah it's I can't even remember what chapter it's in right well as we're doing shatat I just want to say hello to Naomi whose mom

was 80 on the 11th of May and you've sent us a really lovely picture of her celebrating in Soho House in Brighton her 80th birthday lunch

with the grandchildren. She looks in fine, fine form. The thing I thought you would like to know, says Naomi, is that the dress she is wearing is the dress she wore to celebrate her 25th birthday. Now, the email has everything except your mum's name. Oh, no, sorry, that's my bad. It's Val Mainwood. Happy birthday, Val. I know it was yesterday, but I hope the day was absolutely sparkling for you. You look tremendous in the dress that you very casually wore how many years ago? 55 years ago on your 25th birthday still fits you. So you'll be able to say that about your lackey pants, scaffolded trousers, won't you? I wore these scaffolder pants back when I was 25. I can see what you're doing, that's very clever. How old was I when I discovered the world of the track suit bottom?

Because I don't know we didn't have them when we were amazed there isn't a marker in the national calendar change. They haven't always been around. The big, big homework for you, though, is where do you put your sauce pandas? Yes, please. And photos of that would be great. We do.

We just want to know all about it. Now, Katrina O'Sullivan is our guest today. She has been on the podcast before. She's a woman with a formidable voice, quite the story to tell. The author of a really successful memoir called Poor, which I think was an Irish bestseller mainstay for months, if not years. Paul was about her chaotic childhood in Coventry

with drug-addicted parents and really precious little hope. But Katrina defied the odds, thanks in part to some supportive and inspirational teachers. And she is now a professor of psychology at Maynooth University in Ireland. Her latest book, Hungary, is about her relationship with her own body. The self-loathing and despair, she felt that she was never quite good enough and certainly never looked good enough. I'm pretty certain that if you're female and actually if you're just human

you'll find plenty to relate to here. Here's Katrina. Katrina, it's really nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Great pleasure. Now, a couple of years ago, you were on talking about your previous memoir which was called Poor.

The new one is called Hungary. Yeah. Now, you say yourself at the end of Hungary, I wasn't sure whether I had more to say. Yeah. And actually, you assess yourself as an oversharer. Yeah. I mean, is that, did you hesitate about writing another book?

Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, poor has been a huge success. And, but also it makes you feel very vulnerable when you share your life story. And after, like, Paul's been in the top 10 in Ireland for three years now. It's been, you know, I couldn't imagine it going any better. But it does make you feel quite vulnerable when you meet a person and you know that they know everything about you and your family. Well, most things about you.

So, yeah. thought I'm done, but I share a lot on social media. I talk a lot about my body on social media. Whenever I talk open up about this, I just get this wave of response from women in particular. But also, I come from a really poor traumatized community of women. And I've observed over the last few years how my women, the things they're doing to try to shrink themselves, are so harmful, especially my close friends and myself. And so these two things mixed together and I thought, I actually have something else to say and I can use my story

I suppose to highlight some of the challenges that women face around our bodies but also not just a bodies around our drive for success and also our drive in relationships so Hungary is about them three things okay for anyone who hasn't read poor and I do recommend that they do have a look at it

it's about from my perspective a shockingly poor childhood in Coventry in the Midlands back in the 80s. Now both your parents were addicts and they were incredibly neglectful but they loved you. Well your dad certainly did.

And you say your mom was actually not as good a parent but then you also ask yourself are we just judging women in a slightly harsher way as we often do? Exactly. So I'm a professor of psychology I've become really successful in my life one of the greatest gifts of education is be able to think critically about the world

and once I got that criticality like I lived a life which both my parents were heroin addicts and what I witnessed as a child no child should see abuse, neglect, hunger for food the worst types of hurt I experienced and I grew up thinking my parents were bad parents and they didn't love me

because that's the way we think especially when we don't have criticality but going to university and learning about the world and searching for understanding, I began to look at my family from the viewpoint of like society and inequality. My mum was poor as well. She grew up in a really poor family. Her mom gave her some kids up to care as well. Her mom was poor as well. So I've learned that poverty reproduces itself in the same way that privilege does, because I've also worked in Oxford and Trinity and watched how privileged people reproduce privilege as well. So that's given me,

I suppose, the sense of understanding where poverty comes from. And while what I experienced wasn't right and really hurt me, I also have this level of understanding that my parents, particularly my mother, had no choice. Coventry, where I grew up in Hillfield, is one of the poorest communities in the UK. It's been underserved for many, many generations, families left in squalor, lack of opportunity, lack of education.

how could she choose any other life? And I suppose that's the way I perceive it. I think women, especially mothers, we get a much harder time if we neglect our children than fathers do. And that's part of poor. Like I went back to Coventry this week and went back to the road that I lived on. My mum was a prostitute.

I realised that when I was seven years old. It was so sad and so scary to watch that happen. But I went to Vine Street this week and a woman at 9 o'clock in the morning was standing on the same road. selling herself. Like we continue to underserved women and then blame them when they don't choose a better life. And poor is a reflection on that. It's not a, it's a call to action, I suppose. And also an observation that I'm that I'm that girl who did all them bad things. I got pregnant

at 15. I took drugs myself. And here I am, a professor, really successful and loved because I was given opportunities to escape my destiny. Can we talk about the beginning of Hungary? because we find you in a particular place really giving yourself a hard time. But as you say, you have reinvented yourself. You are not the little girl I used to go to school with smelly clothes and you're not that person anymore,

although it will never leave you. Yeah. Where are you at the start of this book? So I start, I'm in Turkey, I'm on holiday, with my wonderful husband, my amazing kids, this is a great life that I've created for myself. But like how I feel about my body and how I feel about,

the way I look is still a problem for me. I think from the age of seven, when I first lost my body through experiences of abuse, I have always been searching for a destination in how I look physically. I've always had this idea that if I fixed my body, then I would be okay. And that was an erroneous thought. It came from lots of experience, but we live in a world that sounds that idea to women all the time. Like weight watches, slimming worlds. Well, because there's money to be made. There's money to be made. And I find myself 40 years old, 43 years old in Turkey, loved, happy, away from my home, away from my security. And I think, I'm going to get a gastric sleeve. Because five of my best friends have had gastic sleeves, and they're all skinny, and maybe that's the solution.

And I go on Facebook, I book into a clinic on Facebook, no assessment. I book in, they're giving me a discount. They're going to clean my teeth at the same time, and maybe give us some Botox. and I'm lying in a bed and I'm about to get this gastric sleeve another gastric surgery to try to fix what was wrong with me. That's the beginning of the book. Right. But as you say,

every woman and look, a lot of men, and we'll talk about men in a minute, listening to this, we'll say, yeah, but I've had those thoughts too. Yeah. And you do say that some of the women you now work amongst your colleagues at uni and the people you work with

and who taught you at Trinity, they're parts of what you call, I love this expression, the over-yogad. The over-yoga. I mean, the middle-class herberts who do all that frantic exercising. Frantic exercise. So every, I don't know a woman.

I've never met a woman, and I know lots of men also who feels completely okay with their body, who feels that they're not, either they're trying to control its size or they're trying to shrink its size. And like, when I went to Trinity College, I come from this poor community

that is willing to buy an ozempic, on the black market, will fly for a cheap surgery in Turkey. And I'm there going, oh, my God, only my people are doing these bad things. And then I'm in Trinity College or Oxford. I'm watching these, like, controlled women over-yogering, ash tangering for two hours in the morning. When they're really tired, by the way, like, it's not wellness to, like, over-yoga your body or to do ash tanga when really you should be resting. But a lot, so there's different choices that we make to control our body.

but they're all as harmful as each other. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not one to say don't be healthy. Like, movement is an important part of being healthy human being and so is nutrition, but so is rest, and so is self-love, and so is allowing yourself to have some ease in your body. And I don't think always these things match. And we can look at certain women and think,

oh my gosh, she's controlling the shape of herself. She's got sinewy veins, she's running marathons or whatever. But if it's harming you and it's not contributing to your well-being, then it's not really wellness. I was thinking about you because I read the book over the weekend and then I went to see The Devil Where's Prada too? Which, by the way, I enjoyed as entertainment, very enjoyable. Have you seen it?

No, I haven't seen the two too. Okay, the cast are on the whole 95% very thin. Yes, of course. Well, you say, of course, of course. Yes. But why? Because that's what the beauty industry is selling us. They're selling us in inaccessible norms at the end of the day.

They are, like, and I don't blame women or men. Like, there's no one in that cast or crew that I'm going, it's their fault. We're all vulnerable to the message. But the idea of having extremely skinny, skinny role models is the perfect way of getting us to buy into the cosmetic industry, to find solutions to what's wrong with us. And everybody's vulnerable, especially people who are in the arts

and who are in the media. I wouldn't be judging them. But I also would say this. I've criticality, as an individual woman, I've criticality, I have the ability to think about the messages that I'm given to other women. And I want to take responsibility for my messages, which is I'm not going to buy into that. I'm not going to post before and after pictures.

I'm not going to try and shrink myself to a size. So I think there's a responsibility that we all have individually, but I don't judge women for trying to reach them standards. No, and I take your point as well that you're not having a downer on exercise or being fit or eating the so-called right foods. But how, what do we do in the age of OZempec and Monjaro? Because you're absolutely right. It's certainly all over the media, not just the media,

but people I know in my personal circle are taking it, have taken it. I think the thing of OZNP-1s are a treatment for obesity. And there are a treatment for obesity that has some kind of medical condition that's caused because of the obesity. That's what they are for. so they should be being prescribed for that reason. Women, I've tried Ozympic and I've tried Mangero. The gift of them drugs was not the size shape.

The change of my size was actually the quietness for the food noise that exists because of the world we live in. We don't come into the world with food noise. We don't come into the world questioning the size of our bodies and saying they should be smaller, I shouldn't eat that much food. We learn these things through the world. So what we need to be doing is regulating the food noise, I think, and reducing that for women.

rather than buying into, I actually am going to shrink myself with this new medication. So I do think there's a question about medical practitioners prescribing this drug to people who don't actually need it as a medicine. We wouldn't do that for heart disease medication or any other medication. But we're doing this for this drug because women and some men, I keep saying and some men, but women are so influenced by the world and being told to be smaller. And it's really harmful.

Well, you must, as a woman, you learn quite early on actually that you shouldn't take up too much space. No, exactly. It shouldn't be too noisy and you shouldn't take up too much space. And not just physically as well. Like this book is about not just physical space. It's also about like sexual space, not asking for what you need, being taught that we are, you know, we're, our role is to be,

to be looked at favorably by men sexually to put their needs ahead of our own. So this book is about shrinking in lots of ways, not just physically, but it's also about shrinking sexually. And it's my journey to actually decide and not to do that anymore, but also what influenced that. So, like, I learnt very young that we are the male gays and what men think about our bodies is really important. Well, you're very, very explicit about what your dad would say to you

about the appearance of other women. I was actually quite shocked by what he was prepared to say to you. You were very, very young. Just explain that. Yeah, so that sexual sexual. abuse and that's been really hard for me to say out loud because I love my dad and my dad had gave me so much attention and love and some other things but my dad would we drive in the car he'd comment on women's bodies as if I was a grown man or woman sitting next to him page three

models he'd call me over and ask me to look at the page three model with him and say oh your man used to look like that it's really inappropriate now my dad was a drug addict and an alcoholic he had his morality was completely affected by that, not to justify it. What's been really interesting is since I've told that story, the amount of women that have reached out to me around page three, around being sexualized that way as a child, it's not, because I was really scared that that's, like, quite uncommon. My dad was going to be seen as some weirdo,

and it is really wrong what he did. But I use them stories to try to exemplify in a really bad way how men talk about women and their bodies, how that affects girls, little girls. And that went from being in my home to being out in the road. Like at age 12, I was very developed. I'd big butt, boobs and, you know, lovely shape.

And I'd be walking past a building site and men arguing me, talking about my body. So, like, their messages were everywhere in my home, but also in my life, in my day-to-day life. And I talk about that a lot, how that impacts what women think about themselves in terms of being a sexual being and being, you know,

and the male gays and what that does to us. You have sons, don't you? I do. You don't have a daughter. No, I don't have a daughter. But I imagine your sons, I've got daughters, but I've also got nephews. And my nephews are very, very keen on going to the gym. Yes.

I mean, I don't think for one minute that they don't judge themselves at all on their... I mean, they are thinking about their appearance. Absolutely. Are things almost tipping over, it's not quite 100% the other way, but there's no doubt that young men have... quite a tough time. Absolutely. And like if we look at what's happening

with the manosphere, like the men in the manosphere, one of the key things about them is their shape and size, their attendance at the gym, their body shape, the muscles. And my own son, like, they're very controlled in what they're eating.

They're counting, like protein is the new. They're counting protein. They're counting macros. They want to be bigger. Like this isn't a book for women. It's a book for men and women. Boys are as influenced, I think, about their body shape and size as we are.

We're being told to be smaller, they're being told to be bigger. But also it's a book for men to understand about how their conversations and how they perceive women influence women and influence relationships. It's really important for them to learn to be respectful.

You know what's really interesting with my own sons as well? Like my own sons understand what a normal woman's body looks like as well. Like we have them conversations about porn, about what they're looking at online. Like I'm very open. I'm trying to make them understand

that what they're seeing online about women's bodies and men's bodies is a misrepresentation of actually the real world so if I'm running around my bra and knickers not inappropriately like

my life I'm like that's what a woman's body is like get used to it get used to it you know because it's really worrying though you know what they're being exposed to young men but my youngest son particularly

I have to be quite managed with him around what he's doing to his body I'm like son you're you're gorgeous the way you are and he's like but I need to run I need to do the gym I need to pump up and I'm like, no, you don't, and where are their messages coming from?

So it is an issue for young men, and I'm seeing that more and more as time goes on. Right. I understand that you've had quite a reaction to this book. And you are, I know, conscious that you don't want to be, you don't want to think of yourself as an oversharing, but would you say that by oversharing, you have made very vulnerable people just feel less alone? Absolutely. Like, people talk about social media,

like it's kind of a negative space. In my world, it's not a negative space. Like, I've got, like, a group of women between the ages of 25 and 65 who share with me constantly about being seen from the things I've said. Like, I get complimented all the time for just being myself. I think that's quite strange, to be honest, in the world that we live in, that you're complimented just for being an open person. Like, when I was age three, my nickname was Mouth.

My brother's called me Mouth. I think it's working well for me now because I've had two. bestselling books. However, I do think it would be a lot easier in the world if we just felt a little bit more comfortable in sharing a little bit about the challenges that we have faced in our lives. In my case, being an oversharer has allowed other women to say things to me, to access therapy, to think differently about poverty, but also to think differently about their bodies. Like talking about the traumas that happen to my body, like one in four adults have experienced childhood sexual trauma, one in three women's sexual assault. This is a lot. This is,

not rare. What's rare is open conversations about the long-term impact of that. And I'm happy to be a person to open them doors because I've been so privileged that I've had therapy and I have education and have a secure life. So I'm happy to be mouth at this stage. Okay, good. Well, you're a very good communicator. Thank you. I don't know. That sounded patronising. It didn't mean to be. There's probably a part of you that remains that little girl that used to go to primary school. And actually, I remember talking to you last time about the fantastic teacher you had. Yes. Miss Arkansas, was it?

Miss Arkansas, yeah. And then another great teacher at secondary school, Mr Pickering. Mr Pickering. I mean, these people were beyond decent, reached out to you, changed your life. Yeah. But are you still that nervous little girl? She, I think we all carry with us our little selves. And if you've had a lovely life, that little self is walking alongside of you,

joyously enjoying the world, skipping along. In my case, there is. a little vulnerable seven-year-old girl who walks into a room and says, am I safe? Is something bad going to happen here? Like, that's what trauma does to a child. Am I safe and I'm looking for threats? That is always there. But luckily for me, I have this adult person now who can say, you're okay.

It's okay, but she'll always be with me. And that's the reason why I'm telling these stories. We want less children and less adults to have to manage themselves all the time. The other thing, though, is in releasing my stories and telling them to the world, the amount of love that I felt from the world, that little girl, every time she gets a message that says, I see you, I like you, she's just, like, so warmed by it. And she's been reminded, I suppose, of what she used to think,

which was that the world is a beautiful place and it's safe to be yourself. So it's been absolutely lovely, but I would say she's still there. Even coming in here, I'm like, oh, is she going to like me? She's going to say something bad. I have to constantly self-manage and constantly, I suppose, appease that little girl. And hopefully we can do more to make sure that that doesn't happen to other beautiful little kids because we deserve to be able to just skip along and be happy. Katrina O'Sullivan, always really good to hear from her.

And the book, Hungary, is out now. It's such a brutal thing, isn't it, that we do to ourselves, our dissatisfaction with our image. Because if you think of how much you love your friends, that I honestly think there would never have been a day with any of my really dear girlfriends where I would have looked at them and thought, oh, you don't look great today, I like you less.

I mean, it just doesn't happen. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. And in fact, it works completely the opposite way. Quite often when someone's not looking great, that's the time that you have the most empathy you ask about them, you talk about why, you know, whatever it is,

you have a bonding moment about it. And, you know, as you said in the introduction, I think everybody has that very strict internal voice I'd be very interested to hear from someone who doesn't actually someone who looks in the mirror and goes, I look terrific. Because I can genuinely hand on heart say I've never done that. I mean, I think there was a brief six weeks when I was 28 when I looked okay.

And even then, I didn't look in the mirror and say, wow, you know, I'm great, there was always something I thought, oh, that's not right, that's not right, I'll change that, I'll do that. And it's just, what are we doing, Jane? What are we doing? I mean, Katrina has been through some exceptionally tough times, particularly when she was a little girl. And it's really interesting in that interview.

She talked about her relationship with her dad was full of, well, all sorts of complexities. I think that's probably fair to say. And the way he spoke about women, I think troubles her much more in retrospect than it did at the time because she was just a little girl and didn't really know. But so, yeah, and I totally understand what you're saying.

I look back at photographs of me in my 20, and I look at my own girls now and just think you are, you don't realize how beautiful you are. And that's why I think our generation are probably much better at saying to our children how gorgeous they are all the time. Because, you know, they are. And in part that is just youthful, freshness, vitality and all that stuff that I have to break it to you does drain away. But they just need to know, don't they? And I do think we're probably, I mean, maybe we overdo it. I don't know.

I still think it's better to overdo it than not to say it. Yeah, I think so too. Anyway, plenty to talk about there. We are jane and fee at times. Dot radio. We love your emails, so do keep them coming. Just a tiny little tip from us. We get an awful lot of emails over the weekend.

If you can hold your fire until later on during the week, you may actually just get a little bit more chance of being heard. That's all. Okay. Right. I might try it myself. and see if I get hurt. Desperate of my chance.

Front of the microphone. Will it ever come? Thank you for listening. I should say that you're on grateful at the moment. The email's really interesting. And I know you won't let us down on source pen lids. Thank you. Jane and Fee at times. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day. Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

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