Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Nobel Prize for Podcasting

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Jane G is reunited with Jane M and they're asking all the big questions: Would you bag up a dead fox and put it out with the bins? Are Tories really taller than Labour supporters? Can a condom ever be romantic?They're joined by Nobel Prize winning biologist Katalin Karikó to discuss her memoir 'Breaking Through: My Life in Science'If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Oh, it's already recording.

OK, lovely. So all this is recorded. Oh, my God. Welcome to Off Air for this week with the Janes. We're back, Jane. And how are you branding me, Jane? Well, I may have used an adjective on the radio that I now bitterly regret. Yeah.

What was it? I can't remember. Well, it began with S and ended with mutty and it was reported to me. Well, why weren't you listening? I'm not allowed to listen at my desk. Why not? Because I can't write and I'm not a multitasker, Jane. I can't pat my head and rub my tummy and listen to you and do my day job.

But anyway, I'd just like to say I've put it in the tribunal file. And there's only one other email actually in the tribunal file. And it's not unrelated. That is related to when I was taken off Nick Ferrari's breakfast show for making him silly and distracted in inverted commas. And I wasn't allowed to review the papers with Nick for a year off Nick Ferrari's breakfast show for making him silly and distracted in inverted commas and I wasn't allowed to review the papers with Nick for a year until I promised that I would keep him focused on the news agenda and not make him silly and distracted so I'm not saying that you're the

actually not the first person to say this Jay no I've just needed to meet the woman who can tell me how to make a man silly and distracted so what is it it you do? Well, I mean, I was about 27 at the time. And I think it was mainly that. That's enough. Okay, so I haven't really got that in my locker. I used to turn up to review the papers on Nick's show, having not been to bed for several hours. And my voice was several octaves lower than it even is now

from mainly lifestyle reasons. And we just used to get on a treat. So I think it was, I felt we had excellent honour, banter and chemistry. Other people felt? Some executives felt that they called it something else. I see. Yeah. Okay, well.

I'm playing it straight today. The Jane Mulkerrin story will be coming your way. You're a great writer. Why don't you write a book? Oh, God, I'd never work again. I'll do that when I don't need the money. I just want to let people know that actually there's an intellectual element to today's edition of Offair. And that is...

And it's not me. It's neither of us, in all fairness. It is an interview with a woman who has won the Nobel Prize for Medicine. And I don't you know, I don't say that lightly because that is an astonishing achievement. And I did feel, if I'm honest, slightly out of my depth. I really did struggle with science at school. That isn't anything to be proud of. I just maybe it was the teaching more likely to be me, I think. In the 70s, it wasn't, if girls didn't like science,

no one really bothered that much about it, did they? No. Which clearly was wrong. And I'm so glad it's changed. I don't know. Well, we'll come on to this. But I don't know how much it's changed. I think women in STEM subjects often still have quite a hard time.

We're talking not that long ago, because we had Dame Stephanie Shirley on the podcast and lots of people emailed afterwards and said, oh, she was so inspirational. But actually, it's still quite tough to be the lone woman in a an it workforce and there are lots of those examples and lots of people who are doing engineering courses saying how odd it was to be that woman so maybe you're right maybe it hasn't changed but i just want to say it was such a pleasure a pleasure which is a mixture of privilege and pleasure to speak to the biochemist Katalin Kariko and you can hear more from her a little bit later but a bumper bundle of emails

over the weekend good lord I know the inbox was I could hardly lift the pile it runneth over yeah before we go into them can I just say also very very, I'd like to just reinforce that I do have some wholesome credentials. I'm not just always distracting people on their breakfast shows. And I would just like to say that this weekend, I was so wholesome that I took my three-year-old godson to Diggerland, which, yeah, I know. I wore wellies. I took him to Diggerland. And his brother, I drove diggers with the under sixes. Yes.

And someone, well, I know who he is because there's a plaque on the wall. I mean, this is why I wish I'd gone into something engineering. Someone is making so much money from Diggerland. There was about 80 JCBs and diggers of various sorts and just oceans of small boys having the time of their lives and parents playing hand over fist. Were there no little girls digging? I saw a couple of little girls digging, but it was mainly little boys.

Little girls had been dragged along with their brothers, I think. But I need to have, this is because I'm just going to apply myself to thinking about what else do small children really like that they can't get at home, that I could make an amusement park out of. Yeah, that you could set up and it would be a licence to print money. I would quite like to, and you did be a license to print money okay um i would quite like to and you did drive a digger i did and were you any good absolutely useless right really complicated it's a bit i mean talk about packing your head and rubbing your tummy about eight times

over with a forward in the back and a left in your right and a yeah i was absolutely useless my granddad would have been ashamed of me actually was there an overpriced souvenir shop oh yeah oh yeah all the diggers and high-vis and various items of clothing to drive diggers you could find. Also an overpriced and terrible construction style calf

where I had some cheesy chips that I may not yet have digested fully. I don't know if cheesy chips sound alright in any environment. We probably shouldn't be too rude about it

because is it actually called Diggerland? Yeah, and it's brilliant. It's brilliant. She said quickly this is a brilliant place to take somebody under what age? Well, I mean, to be honest,

they do special digging experiences for people over the age of 17 as well. They're about 300 quid to drive a really top spec one. But, I mean, my small godson is only three and he's quite little. But as long as you're over 90 centimetres,

you can sit on an adult's lap and drive any digger that you want. Do you have to be only 90 centimetres? Yes. Well, if any adult's willing to let me sit on their knee, I could drive a digger. That just sounds amazing. I can out-wholesome you, though, because I went to Kew Gardens yesterday. OK.

Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I'm not being funny, but every middle-class person in West London decided that yesterday was the day to go to Kew Gardens because it was relatively... Had sprung a little bit. Yeah, the crocuses were out, the snow drops a go-go. And yes, I walked through the, what do you call it,

fern, what's it called? Temperate. The glasshouse one. Palmhouse. Palmhouse. It was all gorgeous. And actually, I went with my... I was slightly surprised.

I had a hungover child with me. I was a bit surprised you answered in the affirmative when I suggested that a cure for her ailment might be a trip to Kew Gardens. But we really enjoyed it. It was very, very ladylike and taking a turn around the gardens. I was going to say, did you go over the ha-ha?

More than once. But we also saw a fox. In Kew Gardens? I have never, and I want to report this to the Kew Gardens authorities, because if I'd found anybody around, I would have told them, I have never seen a fox in Kew Gardens before. And we're talking about half four in the afternoon. Just, I mean, it wasn't running. I mean, they move relatively quickly. But it came out of some bushes and just sort of strode around. Wow. Never seen it before.

Do they have a fox problem? Is it a common issue there? Please let me know. And he got lost on the way to a day raving hackney. Could be that. Who knows? Yeah. Gosh.

It wasn't actually one of the really mangy ones that I see round by the bins in our street. It was, frankly, it was a cue fox. You know, they're quite high ranking entitled foxes. But it was odd to see it. And actually there's something scary about them. I don't care where you are. I quite like them.

I do quite like them. But one died in my garden a couple of years ago at the bottom of my garden when I was still living in West London and I called the council to see if they would come and remove it. And they laughed their heads off at me and said absolutely not, we don't collect dead animals so then I called some private animal removals. Well the answer is, if you talk about it often enough at work on the Monday

Tony Turnbull, the food editor of the Times will come round, bag up your dead fox for you and put it outside with the bins. I thought you were going to say then put it in the recipe pages look foxy fritters with tony t maybe not yeah okay well that's another use for tony turnpike exactly and actually it's sort of it it's uh started a little bit of a man off in the office because tony offered before robert crampton got to offer and then robert crampton was just trying to you know they're trying to out-bloke each other. It's basically now the yardstick by which I will measure all men.

Would you bag up a dead fox for me and put it out with the bins? Of all the people you've worked with, not just the men, who is the least likely to come round and help you to bag up a dead fox? I don't think I can say that on air. I bet we all know them. Right, OK. What have you got from email bundle? Email bundle. I'm obviously going straight them. Right, okay. What have you got from Email Bundle? Email Bundle.

I'm obviously going straight in with compliments about genitalia. The long-running theme, which actually started last time I was on the show with you. This is from an unnamed listener who says, having my first Mirena coil fitted, I was nervous as my twin sister

had found it very painful to insert and the doctor had given up. I relayed my fears to the doctor as she was preparing the speculum for insertion into my cervix. That's always a lovely moment, isn't it? It is. There I was, legs in stirrups. The doctor took one look at my cervix, peered over to me and said, I don't think we'll have any problems, Mrs. Beddoe. Oh, how gorgeous. We now know her name.

Well, she did write that. Yeah, she did write that. Not my first name. Are you alright with that, Mrs B? I hope so. But congratulations anyway on not having issues. Not having issues, getting your marina coil in. I don't know where to go with that. Let's actually, this is

an interesting email from a listener who says, Jane O'Phee, you were right to surmise last week that Claire Balding's relatives are tall because they're posh. She made me laugh. They are tall because they're posh, says this correspondent. I come from a posh Tory family,

but when I grew up, confusingly, I became a Labour MP. I discovered that when I was voting with my Labour colleagues, I was tall enough to see over most of their heads. But when we voted along with the Conservatives, I couldn't. They were simply taller.

You are right to surmise this is a matter of class or even childhood nutrition. Are we allowed to say who this is from? Because she has given her name. She has given her name. I'm not going to mention it. Well, she's a former MP. She's a former MP i just yeah and she now has another prestigious job yes and i just like to say we do have some powerful and influential listeners don't we we welcome them i'm going to

say even more than we welcome the ordinary ones but everyone is seriously but everyone is welcome actually i did have a drink with claire balding only on Thursday. And in fact, I have... Were you in a high chair? I was in a high chair. Yes, I only had squash in a sippy cup. But Claire was on, I think it's fair to say, good form. Fee was there too, I should say. And some other broadcasting luminaries.

And we had a lovely evening. Thank you for asking about it, Jane. It sounds great. Yes. Who else is there? I can't express a shred of interest. I wasn't... Well, I wasn't asking about it, Jane. It sounds great. Yes. Who else is there? I didn't express a shred of interest. Well, I wasn't invited, so sorry, I switched off a bit. You go out with all your bloody showbiz,

rootin' tootin' pals from the Times 14th floor or whatever it is. Which floor are you on? 11. 11, sorry, I never do remember how this building works. The usual way. I've never had so much as a sniff of a night out with that lot. We don't go out. We don't go out. We don't go out.

I suppose it's only DJs who have a really good time. Yeah, exactly. We've had a drink together on the 17th floor. We must have. Haven't we? Yes. Christmas is coming up in about 11 months. Well, so talking of other occasions,

I think this is very appropriate for Valentine's week. Our listener says, I've emailed many times in my imagination, but here is the reality. And I hope it makes you laugh. I listened to you discussing supermarket checkouts. And it reminded me of an occasion where my now husband wished self checkouts had been available. It was 1990. And my then boyfriend took his purchases to a till where two middle-aged ladies were changing over. They oohed and aahed over the lovely bouquet of flowers and the luxury chocolates. They asked him about his girlfriend, me, and said what a lucky girl I was. When they eventually scanned the previous unseen packet of condoms, there was a stony silence and looks of disapproval.

My husband couldn't get out of the supermarket fast enough i still occasionally remind him of the occasion and he still cringes thank you very much listener yeah i mean well i was gonna say we've all been there but as a woman i haven't uh well i can i mean this is where you have to ask can condoms ever be well actually they can be romantic because they're a very sensible thing to use. And as we all know, romance and good sense are very good friends or they should be. Yeah, I'm just going to move on. So you've been talking about consultants referring to people as pleasant, which actually I also have been erroneously described as.

But do you know what? It's a peculiarly British thing because I broke my shoulder during the pandemic and had a big surgery on it in America. My notes said nothing about me being pleasant. I think mainly because I was just paying loads of money. I think they just saw through you. They don't care. But when I came back and started to see a consultant here,

there was lots of notes about right-handed, pleasant 40-however year old right hand of course yeah because it was not my left shoulder yeah um yeah it's it's it's kind of amazing isn't it but we actually got an email about i'm going to find it here someone explaining why they say here we go dear jane and fee i also work in the nhs and wholeheartedly agree with a listener who spoke about deteriorating respect for staff. In our department, we often comment that the public have turned and who would blame them. Nothing seems to be working and without being political, this is having a detrimental effect on behaviour. You also mentioned the reference to the use of pleasant on a medical letter. We regularly receive referrals into our service and to be honest, I'm often relieved to read pleasant gentleman or pleasant woman. Many staff in NHS and social care

are out in the community working alone. This can mean turning up on your own to an address you've never been to before and entering a household you've never met and know nothing about. I think staff use these phrases to help other staff feel secure about their personal safety, which is a really good point. I'd never thought about that, actually. So it's code, basically. From my own experiences, says our listener, I've walked into homes where I've instantly felt uncomfortable and concerned for my safety. Everyone who works in the community will have stories,

but the subtle comments made in communications between professionals is sometimes very helpful. Okay, that is really, that's an insight, isn't it? And I must admit, I don't think often enough about what it feels like to go into somebody else's space as a lone individual, however significant and important you might be. I mean, I'm certainly someone when I have, and if Fi were here, she'd mock this, when I have a man in to do some work uh i am that woman who always says and before anything else do you want a tea or coffee same yeah just to just to set the you know just to let them know that i'm not an old cow yeah and i'd do that to anyone yeah if if you were in ireland you remember my family you'd have baked them a cake when they would come around to do a

bit of work for you oh god it's i mean yes i'm that person too i offer'm that person too. I offer them a cup of tea. Would you like a coffee? Would you like a water? Would you like anything else? Oh no, yeah, you'd be offering some homemade biscuits or some brack. Well, I don't go that far. I don't go that far. It's strictly a beverage only. Yeah, it's transactional. Yeah, it's transactional. But I do think it just makes a point. Yes. And I would

never not do it. So they describe you as that pleasant woman. Well, I hope they do. That pleasant old bat at number number whatever it is, 38. It's not my house number, just in case you get ideas. Here's another one actually about behaviours in the public sector. Sorry, were you about to read another one? Sorry. Carry on.

No, carry on. No, I wasn't, genuinely. In response to the question regarding abusive behaviour, says our listener, I've worked at a busy railway station not that far from Times Towers for over 30 years. Abusive passengers were always about, but now it's on a daily basis,

and it's not just verbal anymore. Spitting is now the number one form of attack. That is disgusting. Isn't it horrible? This is such an issue at the station and other stations, says our listener, that we are now asked to wear body-worn cameras. That's awful.

You're working at a public interchange, and the amount of spitting means you have to wear body-worn cameras. That's awful. You're working at a public interchange and the amount of spitting means you have to wear body-worn cameras. I just think that's outrageous. I don't care about... I mean, I'm not actually that certain I understand why the public's behaviour has deteriorated since the pandemic. I'm not sure I really buy that as an excuse for certainly not spitting at somebody on

a railway station concourse or being rude to an nhs receptionist but it has definitely it does it has changed just think about the number of people talking loudly on phones on public transport or watching videos without headphones all that kind of thing which is obviously not abusive but it's very annoying every single train i get in the evening uh you know if it's sort of after the rush hour people are making very loud phone calls not using headphones watching videos playing loud music as if it's their front room on the rare occasion when someone's having a noisy conversation that's properly interesting that's great absolutely i was on a train back from liverpool the week before last and there's just a couple of blokes, they're just having loud, tedious conversations in standard premium. Yeah.

Did you just say to them, could you be more interesting, please? Yeah, I should have just turned around and said, look, the logistics of what happened at that meeting in 1975 are of no interest to me or any other current inhabitant of this standard premium of anti-West carriage. And the thing is, age is no barrier to this because there's a lot of young people having boring conversations. But I was on with three old blokes the other day who were having the loudest, most boring conversation I've heard in years. Was it about cricket? No, it was about a boring work thing.

Oh, was it? That's just no excuse for boring work things. This email is headlined, how dog Poo Helps Make My Children Brush Their Teeth. Your ears are pricking up, aren't they? If you heard that on a train, you'd definitely chewed in. Paula says, Just pulled into a lay-by to email you to report that my dear neighbour has finally unlocked the secret

to getting my children to brush their teeth. It is a rubber dog's bottom that pops onto the end of the toothpaste tube, allowing the user to effectively poo out the toothpaste onto their brush. I cannot tell you about the delight they still have doing this twice a day. I mean, these kids are now in their early 30s, but they're still playing along with the dog poo attachment to their toothbrush. That's lovely. They're not really in their 30s.

How are they both? Living at home still? My kids will be. Thank you very much indeed for that, Paula. She says, I'm a longstanding listener. I like it when you talk about Crosby's. My grandparents lived there all their lives. And, oh, this is interesting.

It won't be interesting to you, but it's fascinating to me, Jane. My grandmother's side of the family owned and ran Satterthwaite's Bakery, which Jane must remember. Not only do I remember it, it does have a current incarnation, which I visit regularly whenever I'm there. Had an Eccles cake from it only the week before last. And the favourite thing they do is these little pink things called Iced Victorias. What's an Iced Victoria?

It is kind of like a bakewell, only it's got a particular pink icing with round piping. I like a bakewell. Yeah, well, it's not quite a bakewell. Like a bakewell pudding, which is what they have in actual Derbyshire. You have it with creme fraiche. Well, not in Derbyshire. I don't know why anybody has anything with creme fraiche

uh so we were talking the other day when actually last time i said about me being banned from tunbridge wells yes and um we've got a listener from tunbridge wells now we've got our listener says uh i live 20 minutes drive from tunbridge wells does that boost our tunbridge wells listener figures i think so i think it trebles them. Yeah. So I was allowed into Kent on the weekend to go to Diggeland as long as I didn't tell anyone. And I went back over the Dartford crossing really quickly. Yeah. So don't

tell anyone. Under cover of darkness. Do you need to remind new joiners why you would ban from Tunbridge Wells? Just being so rowdy, apparently. Yeah. They're not used to it. Don don't do rowdy in Tonbridge. I don't think so. You have to go outside the city limits

even just to have a small scream. Anyway, our listener says, we're clearly very behind the times in Kent because my local library, Hildenborough, still has a lovely lady behind the counter with a noisy stamp and she can check the piece of paper to see how many people have had the book before me.

Our listener regularly buys second-hand books and for one she loves an inscription. I always wonder, she says, about the book's life before it came to me and I read the inscriptions fondly. Better still is finding a scribbled on post-it note between pages, some writing in a margin or a paragraph which has been underlined by the previous reader. Probably weird but I love the feeling of a connection with a total stranger. So actually, our listener, I will send you all of the books I read for work, which are scribbled in and folded down. When anyone tries to borrow books from me, they get very disappointed. I've written a lot of exclamations in the margin and, you know, sometimes use rude words about how I feel about that

particular person in that particular paragraph. Oh, do you? Gosh, you really take it out on the book, don't you? I really do. You're very passionate. Go for it. Just very briefly, back to the medical letters, because I was trying to look for this email earlier and I just couldn't find it, and I've found it now. I've been a consultant for 20 years, says Anonymous, but ever since I was a student,

I've wondered why on earth we call people pleasant. I would never make a judgment that someone is pleasant or otherwise after meeting them in a medical setting for less than 10 minutes when they're bound to be stressed. I've always meant to question other colleagues about why this gets written, but I never have. I think it's a strange habit. It passes through generations of doctors and now remains as just a way to start letters, but for no good reason. We've got to treat people whether they are pleasant or not. I am going to start asking people why they write

it, says Anonymous. She or they or he had an epiphany thanks to this podcast. I mean, it might be a sort of accidental campaign from Times Radio to, you know, stop judging people and their medical letters. It's about time I made an impact. On Saturday morning, I woke up to the news that a woman whose sister I know and a woman who works here at Times Radio have both been put in the House of Lords. And I felt at that very moment, Jane, both extraordinarily well-connected

and exceedingly old and quite angry. Did you just not feel passed over? Well, that's what I mean. Yeah. You know, you just think, what? Anyway. They're letting 28-year-olds into the House house of lords and aisha has a reason yeah oh yeah she's pretty great though she's pretty great i thought about it and then i thought i'll send her a message maybe she could have a word um well i mean that's pretty much what i mean we know how this country

works aisha always been a bit well I have always been a big fan. Anyway. I look forward to that. Yeah. We have to do off-air from the chamber when you become Lady Jane G. I'll be wearing my ermine, and in these temperatures, it will be quite testing. This is one for people to get there.

We've got to get on to our guest, who is no lesser person than the winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine. I mean, I still like saying that. But you almost laugh when you say it because you can't believe you're allowed to talk to her. Because one minute I'm talking, making vague jokes about genitalia and the next minute I'm introducing the winner of the... Anyway. You've got range.

This is something for people to think about because it's quite a long email and I won't read out who it's from because they want to stay anonymous. But it's about the National Anthem and I wanted to mention it because um we talked we played the finnish national anthem on the times radio show today for reasons i don't need to go into now and it was rather lovely um and this correspondent has asked why uh they watched the rugby at the weekend england playing wales and land of my father's land of our father was land of my father's or land of our land of My Fathers is the Welsh

national anthem. It is lovely and it's very poignant. It's incredibly stirring. However, when I was on Woman's Hour, we once did an item about whether it was anti-feminist. And fair enough because your mother's your mother so why can't it be Land of My Mothers?

Plus, it's simply a fact that lots of people they think somebody's their father, but it's not. So it's very possible that people are singing Land of My Fathers. Besides someone who's not their dad. And actually their dad was from Tunbridge Wells. So that was Woman's Hour and that was a long time ago now. But I'm just thinking in the light of this email we've had, it's very passionate

the email and it's just about how beautiful they found land of my fathers and why oh why oh why are the english stuck with god save the king and that's out of no disrespect to our monarch who's not very well at the moment so we send him our best but is is that really the best the english can do it's not a banger is it no when No. When it comes to tunes or indeed sentiments that we really love. So, just throwing it out there, what do you think is God Save the King good enough to be the national anthem? I don't know. People will find that very controversial, Jane.

What's your favourite national anthem? Well, you've got to say in terms of emotion, Land of My Fathers, although I understand the feminist sentiment surrounding it, it is an amazing, amazing stirring song. What about, well, the French one. Marseillaise is excellent, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's great. The Russian one is a heck of a tune.

I also do like the Star-Spangled Banner, but maybe that's just because I lived there for a long time. But when someone is really belting it out It's a good tune Had you heard of Travis Kelsey before all this? No We were having this discussion downstairs today Oh downstairs

Where all the cool kids are And what were they saying? Well we were sort of comparing it to Tony Turnbull with a dead fox slung over his arm Staring his suit with one hand Slinging foxes with the other. What a film. We were comparing it to Posh and Becks when they first got together

and saying that most people outside of football hadn't really heard that much about David Beckham when they started dating, and Posh was the much more famous of the two. And I guess it's comparable, but on a monumental scale, with Taylor. I just felt sorry for all the other celebrities at the Super Bowl yesterday who didn't get a look in. It was a Taylor show.

I mean, Lisa Keys sang with Usher and they were amazing apparently, but... Nobody cared. I'm afraid nobody did, very much. Right, thank you very much. Thank you for the lovely insight into what goes on on the 11th floor. One day I'll visit.

Do tell us, stock up some more showbiz stories for tomorrow. I will. Yeah, because, well, we just, you know, Kate and I, we're just very ordinary and, well, we can only dream about what goes on three floors down. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Now on to our guest today, the Hungarian biochemist Katalin Kariko, who won the Nobel Prize for Medicine last year

for some work alongside the American immunologist Drew Wiseman. They actually met, Jane, these two. This wonderful thing might not have happened had they not met, slightly but well, entirely by accident, at a photocopying machine. And it's just worth saying that they don't exist really anymore. There's one out there. Apart from here, they barely exist. And a lot of young, there's one out there.

Okay, we've got loads. If anyone's looking to get a new boyfriend, come to Times Towers and hang around the photocopiers. Who needs the apps? Drew Wiseman was not her boyfriend. So I'm going to move back. Partner. No.

Work partner. She worked with them. They did some amazing research that ended up helping the development of the COVID-19 vaccine. So it's, to put it mildly, a considerable feat. But Katalin had had a really happy childhood,

but a truly impoverished one. And you'll hear about that in the interview for years she had this obsession with the molecule mRNA she believed it was able to prevent disease but loads of her colleagues not least at the university she went to work in in America thought she was quite simply misguided if not not more than that. They thought she was crackers. And she lost out on funding. She lost out on jobs. And she was more or less ignored for years. Not, by the way, that it bothered her one iota because she kept pursuing it. And she has ended up winning, alongside Drew Wiseman, the Nobel Prize for Medicine last year. So I asked her how she found out about the prize. It was, I should say, three o'clock in the morning when the phone rang.

First, my husband picked up the phone because he's a maintenance manager and he has many phone calls during the night for broken down system of the big housing complex. But at that time, the phone was not for him. But he handed over and he said, oh, that's for you. And it was three o'clock in the morning. Okay. So when someone tells you that you're a winner of the Nobel Prize, do you go back to sleep?

Do you put the kettle on? What do you do? No, no. Anyway, you couldn't go back because right away, after I have to give an interview to the Nobel Prize Foundation, they call me back. And of course, you cannot sleep for another day or so because you get so excited and everybody's calling you. All of the telephone is ringing. And my husband tried to help me.

Six o'clock, somebody at the door. And it was the Japanese television. And already we're filming. My husband opens the door. it was the Japanese television and already we're filming my husband opens the door crazy well it is crazy it's also richly deserved and and can you just explain in simple terms that we can all understand why you won so the explanation was that together with my colleague, Drew Weissman, we reshaped this RNA by making it usable for therapeutic purposes, the messenger RNA. The messenger RNA, which calls for a protein, and it can be used not just for vaccines, many different vaccines,

but it is a therapeutic use. And so that we made with this modification RNA, messenger RNA available for therapeutic use. And so that we made with this modification, RNA, messenger RNA available for therapeutic use and including making the COVID vaccine. And it was something that you had been working on for, well, many, many years. This wasn't something you'd only done over the last couple of years, was it? Yes. So with RNA, this ribonucleic acid is the abbreviation Stanford. This is a nucleic acid, which is present in every cell in our body. And I started to work with RNA in Hungary when I was a graduate student in 1978 and came to the United States in 85. I still was working with RNA. These were a shorter RNA,

but we had to synthesize, modify, and use different kinds of procedures. And you learn how to work with this fragile molecule. And from 1989, I made messenger RNA, and then I used it with different applications in cell cultures, later in animal studies. And so it was quite several decades of working with this fragile RNA molecule. And while you were doing that, were you respected and rewarded? Or did some people wonder what in fact you were up to? What the point of it all was? So, you know, many of the people who work in their life, you know, in the scientist work in RNA, they just did not like to work with it because it degraded so quickly. And when I said to somebody that I am working with RNA, they felt sorry for me because they, oh, I hate RNA. Oh, my God, you are doing this.

So it is because this was not an easy thing, but I could see progress when I was working with it. And of course, others didn't see that. And so they thought that it is not useful thing. And then for me, it was fun. And I had fun in the laboratory, getting progress, but not getting funding and no reward. I mean, I never get an RO1 grant in the United States. This means that you are a scientist. And the first award actually I got in 2021, February. So, you know, three years ago. Wow. Okay. Nothing until then.

And, but what you were doing in many ways is, well, it's a thing of beauty because you were pursuing knowledge for knowledge sake, weren't you? There's a thing of beauty because you were pursuing knowledge for knowledge's sake, weren't you? There's a real purity to what you were doing. Yes, yes. It is important in science, you know, that we try to solve a problem, understand some complex process.

But it seems that how scientists progress in their career, you know, that the goal somehow gets to promotion, bigger team, more money, more reference, more paper. So that's what somehow the goal became. And then the tool is, you know, we do have to publish because we need more money kind of things happening. And I didn't care about, you know, because anyway, I was demoted. I, you know, I get down, down further, but I still with the same enthusem, I was doing the research. So I was not awarded, but I didn't care. I was curious to make this RNA usable. Then I realized that it is inflammatory. Then I tried to understand why. And then when investigating this part,

realizing that, oh, some RNA is not inflammatory. So that might be useful for something. And again, figuring out that those are why not inflammatory. And all the time is the question was about understanding the science. And in between, of course, I always thought, oh, it will be useful for something. And wow, has it been useful. When the pandemic struck, did you realize immediately that this was going to be something you could contribute to? You have to understand that two years before that, so 2018, I was working at BioNTech in Germany, and we already collaborated with Pfizer to develop a vaccine for influenza. This would be an mRNA-based vaccine. So we were already studying it, perform all of the animal study ready for human trial in end of 2019,

when the pandemic happened. So we knew that we have something which is well characterized against other virus and other vaccine. But, you know, we already other application, we tested out in animals, you know, not just influenza, the HIV and other viral disease. And so we knew that it is very quickly adaptable for anything. So I was not the visionary.

It was Ugo Zahin, my CEO at BioNTech, who in January 2020, he realized that it could be a pandemic because some people had infection and had no symptoms. And then he thought that they would travel and they would spread. Your life has changed beyond, well, I mean, you've made the front cover of magazines, you've been feted all over the world, you've been on red carpets, but your life has been one of struggle, hasn't it? Certainly at the beginning.

Tell me a little bit about your childhood. Where did you grow up? So I grew up in Hungary, a very small town. And it seems from an outside or looking back that, oh, how deprived my life could be. You know, no running water, no television, no refrigerator and so many things. No, no, no. But the neighbors didn't have that. I didn't know.

We didn't miss those things. And, you know, I have a very loving family. I have an older sister and my father was a butcher and we had enough to eat. Some people did not have that and we could go to school. I didn't know that when 52 kids in the school, you know, in one class is a lot. You know, we were quiet and that's what it is. a lot. You know, we were quiet and that's what it is. And so it seems like from the outside that it was not too happy life, but it was happiness. And my father and my mother had just elementary school education, but the system in that time was that encouraging the children to study. So my sister get PhD in economy, I get PhD in biochemistry and, you know, my parents were not even high school educated.

And the system was such, and the education was free. And many things, you know, in this system helped. For example, we get a good affordable, high-quality childcare. So when my daughter was born, I could leave her in the childcare, which was like she was three months old. So there were many things which people from this distance, they cannot see that maybe there are things which we should adopt here in other countries. Well, yeah, that is a good point. You must have had teachers who clearly spotted your potential and allowed you to flourish. Yes, indeed. So the teachers are very important.

In elementary school for biology class, we went out to the nearby forest and the teacher picked up leaves and he found always something so interesting that we never paid attention this one. And I remember the chemistry teacher, she just graduated from school and she came and we did like these crystals that we could have a little thread and we get our own crystal and

how we make a crystal. And so it was all exciting thing. And in a high school, local high school, where I went, there were so interesting things that the teacher pointed out. So it was not he was trying to fill our brain with all of the knowledge, but he was always questions. Did you thought about why? And everybody had to think about what could be the reason for that? And so it was like, interesting. Have you been able to make contact with any of your old teachers since you got the prize? Yes, yes, of course. When I got the award, I called up my high school biology teacher and I visited them.

So even prior to that, so every year when I went back to the small town, you know, I visited my high school teacher. I also, on the Nobel Prize ceremony, most of them were my mentors from Hungary, who I invited as a guest. So we celebrated together. Well, they must have been so, so proud. Did you ever feel in the States that you were overlooked and that you didn't get the credit that you really deserve? So I was not, my philosophy was not like that. I didn't pay attention how others perceived me and judge me. I didn't care. I knew my own value. I knew that what I'm doing is important. And I knew that one day, maybe not me, but somebody else will take this in a new level and then it will be helping people. So it was this philosophy also I get from this high

school about Hans Scheyer, Janos Scheyer, who coined the word stress, how to handle that. And I always, as this high school teacher, gave me the book. And this book was about, you always have to focus on what you can do. Not that others could do, the committee should give me the grant or accept my paper those who are reviewing it but when they're reading the criticism what I can do and that's what's always about that what I can do not you know that and this is the whole life is true like you know you want your wife your children your neighbor should be quiet your wife should do something your children you always wish somebody else should do something. Your children. You always wish somebody else should do something, but you cannot change them.

No. You seem to be somebody without any, you don't have a trace of bitterness. But it's clear that there were large parts of your career which were really quite hard. You were working in very long hours, painstaking work, and people were pretty horrible to you, weren't they? Yes.

But if you would ask my husband, he would say that I was always so happy to go to work. He said that you are not going to work, you know, you're just going there to have fun. So I never came home and bitter that, oh, that's sad said that and that. No, I said, oh, I solved this problem. And then I was so excited.

Well, I mean, that's so true. I mean, to say the least, Katalin, you are now having the last laugh. And it's human nature. You must, on the day that you and Drew found out that you'd won the Nobel Prize, you must have sat there a bit smug and said to yourself, well, how about that then? You must. People ask me also that, no, you go back and those who throw out your stuff,

what you are telling them now. But I am not that kind of person. And for example, the chairman, a neurosurgeon, I never blame him that he throw me out because how you can expect a neurosurgeon would understand that what I am doing, you know, this RNA things. I don't, you know, he just looked at that, that I don't get the grant. And that's what he's judged that experts are saying that what you are doing is not useful and you have to leave. Katalin, you are a substantially better person than most of us. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. Congratulations from all of us who've benefited from your work.

Thank you very much. Thank you. That was Katalin Kariko. And she has written a book about her life story, really, and her incredible achievement. It's called Breaking Through My Life in Science. And the great thing about her,ane i try i suppose in a way i tried to get her to be bitter about her experience of being ignored for so long and she just doesn't have it in her no i don't think she'd ever had it in her i think she was a happy devoted biochemist doing her thing she was convinced that her

research would come good and that it would be of use. And boy, has she been proved right. Absolutely. I suppose you don't spend your whole career thinking, I won't be happy unless I win a Nobel Prize. I mean, I hope you don't spend your whole life thinking like that because barely anyone does. Well, that's terrific, Jane. It is the biggie, isn't it?

First of all, you've hinted that I may not make the House of Lords. So now there's a suggestion. You might not get a Nobel Prize. No, I think you absolutely will, Jane. There is one for podcasting, right? Well, if there isn't, there bloody well should be. Right. Thank you very much.

Sorry I was rude about you earlier. I mean, you'll have to join a little support group with Fee. Actually, I suspect she probably already has. We are back tomorrow. And honestly, I wish we could do justice to the sheer volume of emails. We really appreciate your interest and keep them coming on any old thing. But I think I'd quite like to talk about National Anthems this week. Definitely.

Maybe we could get some clips. We could get some clips. We had a clip of a seal clapping on the radio show today. It's technical here, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. Got all the bells and whistles. Seal claps and all. Okay, thank you for listening. Jane't it? Yeah, it really is. Got all the bells and whistles. Seal claps and all. OK, thank you for listening.

Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fi Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm sorry. Voice Over describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone