Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Nostalgic smells of a phone box...

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

Wishing you a happy St Gertrude’s Day! Jane and Fi discuss that plus Digbeth bus station, career changes and foreign exchanges. Plus, Fi speaks to domestic abuse survivor Richard Spencer about his new Channel 5 documentary 'My Wife, My Abuser: The Secret Footage'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We hunted down a phone box. Remember what those were, kids? Can I just say, the smell of a phone box. It wasn't always urine. It usually was. But it usually was. Just randomly, my photos, Google compiles them and makes a movie.

And this is a movie about food. It's just quite strange. I can't bear that kind of thing. Well, sometimes it's really lovely. So these are very happy memories. And they're just lots of plates of food that have been eaten over the years and a flying octopus but as previously discussed

sometimes when it comes up memories to share just like nope I've been trying to forget that I've had years of therapy to not remember that I've paid a lot of money to really not recall that at all

if you don't mind. I also noticed on my music the other day, there was a playlist, a recently added playlist, My Favourite Songs. But they weren't my favourite songs. Well, have you got a shared Spotify? No. It wasn't Spotify, it was Apple Music. Oh, I don't

go near that. No, I just think it's really weird. Nope. Because they were emphatic. In fact, my list of favourite songs included a song that really I cannot bear. Yep. Happy Birthday by Altered Images. Oh! Poor old Claire Grogan. No, no, I love Claire Grogan. I just couldn't ever stand that song.

Anyway, basically they're all listening, they know everything about you and it's really sinister. So as you're listening to us now, rest assured that we're listening to you wherever you are in the world well there is that terrifying piece isn't there in the times uh today about meta and what meta is they're mopping up yeah and it's just so true that you might be looking at somebody's insta feed or whatever it is because you can't stand

what they're saying not because you like what they're saying and doing so the intent is never conveyed is it no no that's true that's the problem so i don't want more of that to be honest we've got a lot of problems one of my problems is that i keep calling koalas koala bears and i've got to stop you've annoyed the whole of australia so i am really sorry and they are koalas from now on. I'm just really sorry and please no more emails on that relatively niche subject. But I love how much it's annoyed people.

It really has got on people's goats. Yeah, and I wonder why. I don't know. Because it doesn't seem the worst crime to commit. It is annoying. I mean, when I think of the things that I get annoyed by, I understand other people's annoyance with relatively random details. And it's simply a fact that I was consistently getting wrong.

OK, well, well done for apologising. I'm sorry, everybody. Can we just say a huge thanks to Caroline Priestley, who does pet portraits, who has done, from the aforementioned social media feeds some really, really beautiful, beautiful pictures of Dora and Barbara. Dear Fionnuala

belated Happy St Gertrude's Day. Patron saint of cats. Well, my gran was called Gertrude. Well, was she a cat? No. Oh. No, she wasn't. Sad to hear that. That's not a name that's, you know she wasn't. Sad to hear that. That's not a name that's...

You know how some of those names from that generation have absolutely made it back? Yeah, so there are lots of Esmées and Elspeths and Brace. But Gertrude's not come back. Very much on the shelf still. No, I wonder whether Roderick has come back. I haven't met Roderick for a long time. Young Rod. Anyway, can I just do this from Caroline, please? I haven't met Rodrick for a long time. Young Rod.

Anyway, can I just do this from Caroline, please? I'm a long-time fan of your programme and listen with particular interest when you mention your cats. For your recent tribulations in regards to Barbara's bladder are familiar. Ruby, my Bengal, is similarly afflicted. I can't leave any clothing out

and she can't resist the temptation to pee on it, particularly my bra. I've been known to put on a bra and find it very wet indeed now that is just terrible Carolyn but pick your underwear up love pick it up, pick it up, don't leave it on the floor it's a phrase I can't say quite a lot at the moment I'm afraid I don't have any magic solutions to stop the peeing

however I had a look at the insta to see the culprit and I've drawn pet portraits and they're really really beautiful they are brilliant and you've drawn pet portraits and they're really, really beautiful. They are brilliant, yeah. And you've said, if you like them, I'll drop them off to you at Times Towers. Well, don't do that. Charge us because it's your business, isn't it?

Thames Pet Portraits. So don't give it to us for free. Jane and I are in gainful employment and we'll pay the going rate because I'd absolutely love that one of Barbara but unfortunately you've got to do the other cats and Nancy because otherwise they'll all feel left out. But I'll just have Dora.

Very happy with that. And as V says, we don't need it for free. We'll pay. We would like a reduction. Let's just be honest. But we'll certainly pay you. No, they're really good. They're really, really good.

Oh, and just before I forget, can I just say a big hello to Tash, who must have been at the Ray gig on Friday night, and I hope your boyfriend really enjoyed it. She was the listener who wrote him very kindly offering the ticket, said you could go. But I would also just say I've never seen anything like it in musical terms. She

is just a powerful, powerful poppet is Ray and she had 18,000 people just worshipping her on Friday night, Jane. Every single song is thoughtful, wise you know, it's relevant. She had an orchestra with her as well, didn't she? Just incredible, incredible orchestra.

And just the way, you know how some artists can really, really, really do the talky bits in between. I think Adele does it to spectacular effect. And sometimes you really notice when artists can't. So Ray is definitely a can and in particular her everything that she said about the song she wrote about her body dysmorphia was just you know there wasn't a dry eye in the house and and i think if you've got young people who just need to hear that message from this beautiful woman standing on stage with 20 000

people loving her and every single one of those people just wanting to say you're you're just beautiful how you are but I think her honesty and being able to say you know sometimes I find it hard to come on stage because I look in the mirror and I don't like what I see lordy but uh just an amazing amazing gig well she's definitely having her moment, because although she's been around for a while, it's been quite a slow burn for her, hasn't it? Oh, my God, yes.

Well, because she was kind of sat on by her record company because they didn't want to release her album. I think I'm right in saying until she had a pop hit, and it's not pop, that's the thing. Her album's kind of jazz, some of it's dance, it's just all over the place in terms of genres. But it's just brilliant. And I don't think people really mind that anymore.

I mean, in your favourite tunes, you've probably got all kinds of different genres, haven't you? But they're not my favourite tune. No, but in your actual favourite tunes. Yes, yeah, I have. So it's nice to have an album that veers all over the place. Yeah, well, it did sound like an amazing experience. I was a little bit jealous.

Oh, don't be silly, because you've had a very fun time sorting out Sainsbury's orders. But also, you've been to some great things recently. Noah Khan, yeah, there I was. Yeah. A bit noisy, but no, he was very good. No, he was a bit noisy. It's amazing how you forget what...

I mean, being amongst live music is an experience that i loved so much in my teens and 20s and then revisiting it now it is it is different somehow it is different and you do come away with your ears just absolutely banging and your head as well normally but it's still a wonderful thing to be amongst other people enjoying the same music so no i don't doubt it was fabulous well done ray you've got the backing of this podcast that's going to make it's going to make the world of difference like almost career um this is a very serious email but it's kind of written with a lovely spirit and i'm very grateful to ann who says um um whilst doing my 30 minutes on my 20-year-old inherited exercise bike,

I was catching up with some of your podcasts and I heard you talking about good deaths and I felt compelled to write. She says, My sister was murdered in August and we are waiting for the trial. It was obviously horrific, devastating, and I'm in tears again writing this. Due to the shock and devastation,

my mum passed away six weeks later. Her death was traumatic, prolonged and, the end undignified. Both deaths have left me with long-term trauma, but I am not writing this for sympathy. Both of their funerals were incredible. My mum's was in a church and it was literally a parody of Victoria Wood. The fantastic lady minister had purple hair. literally a parody of Victoria Wood. The fantastic lady minister had purple hair. She mistakenly stopped the funeral to ask all the pallbearers to come in and join an already packed church.

The organist just went AWOL and the rector was wandering around a bit like Mrs Overall. My mum's coffin was in fact carried out to the Ballad of Barry and Frida. That's the Victoria Wood song. We had deliberated about it, but the minister insisted we be brave and include it. It left people with smiles, shock and laughter, and something my mum would

absolutely have loved. My sister's funeral was non-religious and we sang along to Kate Bush and David Bowie, and also the huge congregation played Coconut Shells to a song that had been written for an art project she was involved in. She was buried to the tune of Men Without Hats, You Can Dance. Again, people were desperately sad, but we all laughed and agreed my sister would have loved it. I don't mean to create sadness by sending this email, I just wanted to share that despite periods of complete darkness, thinking about the two amazing and uplifting send-offs

has really been cathartic. Annie, I really am glad that it has been cathartic for you and what a very individual way to send off both your mum and your sister. But I'm also very, very sad to hear about, first of all, your sister's murder and then, unsurprisingly, the impact that had on your mum who who died so soon afterwards i mean that you have been through such a lot in a very very short period of time so lots of love from both of us and and thank you for the email really appreciate it um the fact that the

funerals were able to be so individual i do think that is a massive improvement in relative relatively recent times the fact that funerals were kind of taken away from organised religion, if that's what suited the family of the person who died, or indeed the person who had died, if that was their wish not to have a religious funeral, it is now possible to do really genuinely, I was going to say targeted affairs, but you know what I mean?

Something absolutely represented the person who's gone rather than, and we've all been to these events where there is some minister or individual who does not know the person who's died at all, and they're just going through the motions, and it's all so impersonal. But also, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. And of course you need something, don't you,

to help you to process what has been just the most horrendous experience and never forgetting the victim. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I think, having said that, I was wondering recently, at the funerals I've been to most recently, a family member has always said something, always. And this just wasn't the case back in the day. When I first started going to funerals they were absolutely not certainly the funerals i went to nobody from a family would speak about the dead person now it's almost somebody has to and i i do

you know i'd love to think i would be able to say something at a funeral but i'm not absolutely convinced that i would by the way and i think perhaps it's a hard it's a big ask of so many people isn't it I think it's massive and actually I went to a friend's funeral uh last year and his daughter spoke and she's in her early 20s and where you get the strength from to do that um but of course it was the most powerful speech out of all of them. Lots of people got up to speak, actually. It was really beautiful, including one really lovely friend who said at the beginning, you know, that Jan, who had died, always thought that he was quite unpopular.

And it was Southwark Cathedral. It was absolutely full. It was full right to the back of the pews. And it was just such a really, really lovely thing to say. And everybody just, you know, when people laugh out of gratitude for somebody saying something that allows you to just display an emotion. But it was so, so, so beautiful. And, you know, I think if you get the chance,

even though it might feel incredibly uncomfortable maybe it's something that you regret if you don't speak at a love one, two, you know Yeah, perhaps you would but I still think it's a big ask and I think perhaps we sometimes just assume that somebody will be able to say something and for whatever reason they're just not able

and that's entirely legitimate Don't feel you have to Yes, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep So we'd love to talk more about all of the difficult things in life on the podcast

and rest assured we read every single email that comes in and we will have I think a few more email specials won't we

I'm looking at Eve just because we're getting so many emails now and we don't want to disappoint you we're grateful for anybody

taking the time to write what should we do next oh can we do just a couple of TV recommendations Don't want to disappoint you. We're grateful for anybody taking the time to write. What should we do next? Oh, can we do just a couple of TV recommendations? Yeah, no, I thought... Just to lighten the load. To be fair, I thought it was interesting. By the way, I don't know if you saw it.

It was on BBC4 on Saturday night. I watched it last night. The Gone. Rather good. It's a drama set in New Zealand. Is it? Yes. What happens?

What's the premise? It's an Irish... There's an Irish policeman and he's paired up with a New Zealand. Is it? Yes. What happens? What's the premise? It's an Irish, there's an Irish policeman and he's paired up with a New Zealand police lady and they have to try and find a missing

Irish couple in New Zealand. It's rather good. That's a good recommendation. No subtitles or anything, obviously it's New Zealand. Well, obviously it's BBC4. And it's on BBC4.

No, they have a lot of subtitles. No, no, no, that's what I mean. Oh, yeah. So quite often I won't even look on BBC4 because I think it's a Sunday night, it's on BBC. No, they have a lot of subtitles. No, no, no, that's what I mean. Oh, yeah. So quite often I won't even look on BBC Four because I think, oh, it's a Sunday night,

it's a bit challenging. A bit too much. I can't cope with the subtitles by then. So that is quite good. It's called The Gone. Fantastic. I did watch a couple of episodes of Whitstable Pearl over the weekend, which is Kerry Godleman,

and it is set in Whitstable and she's a private detective. Oh, yeah. Where do you find this? So that's on the UK Play. Eh? It's free on the UK Play. Yeah, but I don't subscribe to UK Play, so I didn't get any adverts, absolutely.

I was laughing. It was like being leafleted by a drama. I think you're doing something sinister if you're getting something with no ads for free. Yeah, they're probably tracking everything, aren't they? It's just obviously something they only give to Southerners because the Scousers aren't getting that. Anyway, you carry on.

It's quite a gentle watch so far. It is one of the... And to take nothing away from Kerry Goblin, because I think she's a fantastic actress, you can be doing something at the same time. Oh, God, I like telly like that. Because it's not really for full concentration telly, is it? Not always.

It's not the wireless. Not always. And sometimes, you know, you've got a lot of admin to be doing on the computer or mending some socks. Dearest Jane and Fee, I heard your plea for things to watch on telly. This comes from Emma, and I hope I have some very palatable suggestions for you. I immediately thought of Slow Horses and Criminal Record.

They're both on Apple, but I think you've mentioned these, so you've probably already watched. I loved both of those. So Criminal Record is the one with Peter Capaldi and Kush Jumbo in it, and it's filmed all around East London, and it's like having a shout-out on the radio. There is nothing quite like seeing your street on TV. Your street?

Yes. Oh, wow. It's one of those really mundane things, because you kind of think, I walk down this street every day, why is it still so magical that it's on the television? Oh, it is though, isn't it? Just remarkable. Fearless.

Gives you a little sparkle. It does. Fearless was a superb drama on ITVX with the fabulous Helen McCrory, a few years old but very much worth a watch. Did you catch that? Did. No.

No. Well, I'm definitely going to have a look at that. Is that about a formidable lady policewoman? I've got a feeling she was a barrister or in the legal profession. I think I have seen it flagged up or a trailer or something. Might be one of those ones that actually I have watched but could quite easily watch again.

And True Love on Channel 4, if you haven't already seen it, a wonderful cast. That's passed me by too. Oh, no, I do know about that. I think that was the one about a sister dying actually. Okay. Sue Johnson's in it. Okay, right.

Lots of good people actually. That did look good. I don't know why I didn't get round to watching it. I'm so busy. And A Spy Amongst Friends as well based on the true story of MI6 intelligence officers. Honestly, one of the best TV series I've ever seen with Guy Pearce and Damien Lewis playing the two male

roles and Anna Maxwell Martin who is utterly brilliant as ever. One to watch when you want to immerse yourself in something whilst enjoying a glass of vino or similar. Thoroughly recommend. So that's a very good list, Emma. Thank you very much for that. Very good. Very impressive. This is from a listener who

is in South Wales. We won't identify you any further than that. She says, I'm a reception teacher in a small who is in South Wales. We won't identify you any further than that. She says, I'm a reception teacher in a small junior school in South Wales. I've worked here since I was 16. I've worked my way up from nursery nurse to teaching assistant to a full-time teaching role. It's rewarding and I love elements of it, but I find it increasingly stressful with paperwork and spreadsheets taking over. If I had wanted a job handling data, I'd have gone to work in an office. As I started this career with no

qualifications I studied alongside working full-time and that has resulted in finding myself only qualified for the job I do. I've recently been thinking of a career move but find myself in a position where I have a mortgage to pay and I can't afford to make any less money than right now. My better half is a teacher too and works in a large comprehensive teaching chemistry. I'm exhausted, overworked, stressed up to the eyeballs and tired of the whole scenario. The bottom line is that my lack of enthusiasm and low mood isn't fair on the children in my care. I've got 10 GCSEs, a cachet, I hope that's right, teaching assistant course instead of A-levels, a foundation degree in childhood studies and a PGCE. I mean, you are very, very

well qualified. I don't believe for a minute that you aren't, as you put it, not qualified to do anything else. Because if you've been a teacher, that gives you a huge skill set, doesn't it? The fact that you can keep the children interested and focused on what they're supposed to be learning for a period of time that's a skill set so I'm sure that's transferable to another another line of work but as you say if you're feeling that your lack of enthusiasm is actually impacting on the children then that probably is the right time to think about doing something else yeah I think it's incredibly difficult to know what your transferable skills are it's one of those phrases what your transferable skills are. It's one of those phrases that's bandied around.

We've all been in that professional situation, haven't we? I'm not in it now. I'm getting a bit fed up and needing to shuffle off. I've actually, well, sadly in one of my previous jobs, I realised that my own feeling of I've been here before was making me less good at what I was doing. And I think that it's not a bad time to decide, maybe you should go for pastures new. Yeah. And I think, particularly in the line of

work that we do, and I think I know the programme that you might be referring to, there's also a possibility that you've interviewed the person before. Three or four times. Yeah. So maybe, maybe time for somebody else to have a bit of a pop have a go at the coconut shy move over let's get some new eyes on this you couldn't be more right but the transferable skills thing and i know there are loads and loads of people out there who offer this as a professional thing uh you know where you go along and somebody else tells you what it is that you might be good at and i think sometimes that's the only way to go about it because other people will see something in you that you might not be able to see yourself.

So I would say that if, you know, I'm sure that our listeners will have suggestions, but also if you could find somebody who does that kind of professional skill set assessment stuff, it can be enormously helpful. We know loads and loads of people who have left the previous mothership and gone on to do extraordinary things having spent years thinking

i only do one thing that's completely right and actually they don't you know journalism prepares you for lots of other things but sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees yourself and also let's be honest it suits quite a lot of employers for you to feel that way. Yeah. Really does. I'm not saying that the school that our listener works at will think that, but they probably will. But also, it's not really an employer's job to look at you and go, you might be better doing something else. It's their job to try and make you the best at what you're doing. Yeah.

So, yeah, ideas for that correspondent, please. What can she do to just cheer herself up a bit and give herself new possibilities we're still receiving so many emails about your exchanges and actually we did think what an amazing spin-off podcast it would be to put together the people you had all of these french and german exchanges way back in the day and you could catch up with your exchange person and see what your lives had turned out to be. I'd be up for that. I think it would just be fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

Surely, come on Channel 5. Do it. Yeah, it would be wonderful. And it combines everything, doesn't it? Because you get a little bit of a travelogue, go back to the place that you went to, and they could show it in their region, coming back to the place that they went to over here. Yeah.

And there's nothing as fascinating as ordinary lives. I've put ordinary in inverted commas there that you can't tell. As we both know, Fee. No, life is ordinary, Jane. I thought I'd share my tale of a foreign exchange for amusement. In the 1980s, when I was about 14, this comes from Caroline, my French teacher, Madame Urquhart, arranged for my family to host Anne,

a French girl of similar age for a couple of weeks. Off we trek one Saturday morning to collect Anne from... I'm going to get that wrong. What's that? Digbeth. Digbeth Bus Station. In Birmingham. Thank you. I thought maybe it was one of those ones that had a silent D or silent B.

Once you've been to Digbeth Bus Station, it's one of those places you don't forget. I think it's marginally improved, but because I was at uni there, lots of my trips back to Birmingham I would end up in Digbeth. Digbeth, okay. In Digbeth.

Waiting with trepidation, we eventually spotted a stylish French-looking girl. We smiled and asked her name and she replied triumphantly, bingo, we thought, and bungled her luggage into our Ford Cortina. What aina what a car traveling home and conversing as best we could it slowly dawned on us that something here wasn't quite right and just as we hit dudley my dad hit the brakes we had the wrong ann somewhat bemused and handed us a crumpled piece of paper with the

correct exchange contact details we hunted down a phone box remember what those were kids and my mom just say the smell of a phone box it wasn't always urine but it usually was but they were even without the urine they had a very very distinctive well in the summer they had a terrible smell absolutely terrible smell but it was the making of us my mom made a call to discover that somewhere in the west midlands the real Anne was settling in with her hosts. An hour later we met outside Dudley Zoo and swiftly exchanged the two Annes.

Thankfully with much amusement, needless to say, as sweet as Anne 2 was, Anne 1 was far more my kind of girl. Now you see, that is the opening episode of our new podcast, In Off Series. That is very good. Meeting the wrong Anne. Yeah.

So we've got lots and lots of people in the creative industries listening to this. So pick us up on this. It'll be a great commission. Go on, you can do it. You can do it. There's bound to be. Where there's money, there's muck,

or whatever the expression. What is the expression? Where there's muck, there's brass. Oh, yeah. But the other absolutely cracking spin-off, I think, is Pen Pals as well. I think putting Pen Pals back in touch with each other to see what their lives have turned out to be is a similar vein.

Do you think you could find Mark in Avignon? Was he yours? No, he was. He's very good English. He sent me a cassette once. Did he? Well, you see, it would be brilliant. It would be brilliant.

Of all his favourite songs. Can I just ask a favour of you? This is back to the TV thing. Me, Jane Garvey, I'm very busy. What do you want me to do? Well, it's from Laura, who is recommending Dead to Me and Firefly Lane, both about female friendships. And she says

the main reason I'm writing is because one of the lead characters in Firefly, Sarah Chalk, who plays Kate Malarkey, reminds me of Fee. And I can't explain why because I've never met Fee. It's possible I feel I know you both from listening to your endlessly funny, serious, thought-provoking, clever chat every day.

And there are about five question marks after that. It got me thinking that sometimes we put people in preconceived boxes without knowing much of anything about them. So could you watch that? Because I'm not brave enough to, in case I watch and Kate Malarkey's dreadful. Okay. What far-flung

channel is that on? What do you think of me? I don't know. She doesn't say. It's not very helpful, is it? Oh, no. I think it's on the flicks. I could probably Google it. Anyway, thank you, Laura. I hope it's all good. I just want to send sympathy and heartfelt love actually to our correspondent who says the story of being a teenage girl being taken to the chancelise and just white pants on a french exchange did make me think of myself at the age of 14 i was staying in london with a twin sister

at a friend's house for the weekend with my twin twin twin sister because she wouldn't be a because you've only got one haven't you if she's the twin i was staying in london with my twin twin twin sister because she wouldn't be a because you've only got one haven't you if she's the twin i was staying in london with my twin sister at a friend's house for the weekend that was my mistake not our correspondence uh said friend had an older brother oh he was gorgeous he was 17 let's call him brad on saturday morning her mum said brad is going to chaperone chaperone you three girls shopping on the bus to richmond Street. It was 1984. I was wearing a pair of three-quarter length white trousers with a slight paisley pattern, a white t-shirt and a red v-neck jumper slung over my shoulders and tied nonchalantly across my front. The bus was great. Of course as

soon as we got to Richmond Brad disappeared and said he'd see us at the bus stop in two hours. I started to feel a bit queasy. Standing in W8 Smith's, admiring the stationery, I felt a wet sensation down the white trousers. To my horror, I realised I'd started my very late first period. But this wasn't just spotting, this was a full-on gush of bright red down the white trousers. My twin and her friend were awful. Even though both were quite experienced with periods, they were of no help and left me in a heap of tears whilst they sniggered by the magazines. I somehow found my way to Boots, bought some sanitary towels, but all I could really think

about was Brad and the bus home. I had no choice. I had to get back on that bus. Thank goodness for the red v-neck jumper which was now tied around my waist. The mortification was palpable and there is no chance that brad didn't notice the not so white trousers on the bus home not that he could have cared less as any 17 year old boy looking after three 14 year olds but of course to me age 14 it really mattered our correspondent says she can no longer visit richmond in any capacity well i'm not surprised because that's a really really really, really awful experience, Jane. That is a very extreme first period experience and I'm

not at all surprised that every single time you visit Richmond, because she does visit Richmond, she actually winces. Yeah. Just, just things. But also... I'm 53, she says, sorry. I'm well through the menopause but I cannot go down Richmond High Street without remembering that day.

But I'm not fond of the sniggering girls No, do you know what? I think we were crueler then about that sort of thing because that was back in the day when periods weren't really talked about You know, I think that's one of the great I think really good things about

today is that you're probably more likely to get sympathy now than you were back in the 80s. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Actually, and I'm not at all surprised that the other girls sniggered. They shouldn't have done. But I think it's probably just out of, it was real, it was considered shameful. Yep. So it must have been. And it's, that's just,

that's a horrible version of Sod's Law, the white trousers happened to be being worn that day. Never mind. I should say our correspondent is terrifically successful and is very important in a university so um thank you for that and it hasn't overshadowed her whole life we don't we don't want to exaggerate too much no and presumably uh if you know you're back in the white trousers there was somebody who set that up as a kind of business name didn didn't they? I can wear white trousers again, dot com. Really? As a kind of, yeah, post-menopausal, I don't know whether it was a fashion line or whatever.

Right. Because, I mean, there are a couple of years. I don't think I've ever worn white trousers. Wear white trousers just like you must be joking. About 20 years. Anyway, no, I don't wear them. I think it's just tempting fate, even though... I mean, that fate's a long time ago.

Literally anything could happen. Did you have a good St. Patrick's Day? I didn't celebrate St. Patrick's Day at all. Well, no, nor did I. But I have to say, you couldn't move more than 100 metres in my part of London without encountering somebody in a tricolour wig. I mean, it's just, it's got out of all proportion. Sorry, I'm banging my microphone. It's got out of all proportion, this St Patrick's Day thing. Well, you tell them, love. Well, no, I was in Trafalgar Square by Pure Go International by accident yesterday afternoon

because there was something wrong with the trains. And it was just a huge St Patrick's Day event there with music. I mean, it all seemed incredibly high-spirited, as we say. But, I mean, there was all sorts of paraphernalia. Well, did it not call to your Irish roots? Did you not think, this is me? I want to hear from... Let's have a little chink.

I want to hear from people in Ireland about what they think about the worldwide export of Irishness. Oh, don't open those floodgates. No, no, just because I think there's a lot of... Like, Joe Biden is the one who niggles me because he's claiming to be Irish and he's literally not as Irish as I am. And I don't think I am Irish.

But you refer to it a lot. No, Irish roots, but I don't claim... I wouldn't boing around in a trickler wig on St Patrick's Day. Even I laughing. Also, I don't like Guinness. Well, OK. That's it. You are innocent for Irish affliction.

Irish cultural appropriation. Yeah, OK. Well, I think I'm just going to celebrate St Gertrude's Day big time next year. The day of the cats. Definitely should. Dear Jane and Fee, says Susan, I'm sorry if my email to you was coarse. Never apologise for that. We've had a much coarser one than yours, I can tell you.

Yes, this one was about naked attraction. But Susan says it was the first time I'd seen such exploitative, childish rubbish and I was shocked. Had I known it would be mentioned, I would have toned it down a little. Don't, Susan, we entirely agree. I think it's one of the most bizarre programmes just ever and wrong on nearly every level. I'm surprised that it continues to be broadcast, actually.

I'm a bit like you. We both sound a little bit like Mary Whitehouse. No, but Jane, where have we come to in the world? I don't know, darling. I agree with you. It's just horrible. Where you're saying, I like the look of that, and that's more important than anything else. I just can't bear it. You're right. I just can't bear it.

You're right, I just can't bear it. Turley Humphreys, which is just a great name, has emailed us about boarding schools. I was really sad to hear you diss boarding schools today and it really upset me, so I thought I should write for a first time. I run a charity that helps get unemployed young people into permanent jobs

and have managed to get well over a thousand into work, so we applaud you for that. I have a son who went to boarding school from the age of seven. We lived in central London. I did a huge amount of research into the schools and he went to one that was near our family in Bedford so there would always be someone within 15 minutes of him. He was a weekly boarder and absolutely loved. As a really energetic child, he played every sport,

all of the facilities, but with a stone's throw of his boarding house. He had a fantastic time and has the most amazing circle of friends. My son's father disappeared after he was born, so I had the choice of giving up my charity to get a part-time job to look after my son or arrange for him to go to an amazing safe place where his education was excellent and the staff and experience couldn't have been better. It's not just posh kids who go to these schools, and for working women in my position, it was the best solution. My son has no regrets.

I had to sacrifice our house to pay the school bills and now live on a boat, but I wouldn't change anything as I'm so proud of the well-rounded young man the school and I have brought up. Well, I mean, that's one experience. And I don't doubt a single word of it. And I'm glad that your son is absolutely fine. I still think that my own personal jury is, well, it's not out.

I've decided that I don't think boarding school. And I mean, I know there are all kinds of reasons, work-related, family-related reasons. But I think Turley's point is a really, really good point. We have a discussion, don't we, all of the time, and it was being had at quite high volume last week because Lily Allen had said in an interview that you can't have it all and that she had to relinquish her pop career because she had kids and the whole furore about, you know,

can women expect when they have children to be able to carry on their career and stuff? And I think, you know, Lily Allen is absolutely amazing. And all she was saying was that the pop music world isn't suited to a woman who wants to be with her children. Most of the time, she's carried on doing loads of things. You know, she's in plays and now she's doing a podcast with Makita.

But it is that thing of, you know, once you have the responsibility of children, it's often incredibly difficult to have the same responsibility that you had at work. So I don't think we can ignore that experience of boarding school as really, really helping women out if you are just on your own with your child.

So I'm absolutely delighted that your son has had a good time. And I think that what's happening now about boarding schools with an awful lot of people in our generation, being able to talk about the horror of a lot of boarding schools in the 1970s and 80s is really helpful. Because as we now know, wherever there have been children on their own, there have been adults who do not have the best intentions towards them.

So it marks the card, doesn't it, of anybody who might be in a boarding school now who doesn't have the best intentions for children. So that's a good thing too. Oh, well, that's a very good thing. I don't know enough about them now. I don't know enough about them. I've never been to one,

so I don't know what it was like back in the day. But certainly you're right. Some of the stories coming out are atrocious. But I have to say, I was a day girl at a boarding school and lots of the boarders were really, really happy and very well-sorted women later on in life, more sorted than I was. So I think we condemn at our peril. But it's good to hear that experience and I'm just delighted that your son's had such a good time.

There's a documentary on Channel 5 this evening, which is very shocking. It details domestic abuse by a wife against her husband. The husband is Richard Spencer, and for 20 years he was on the receiving end of increasingly violent abuse from his wife, Cherie. There was also considerable verbal abuse and emotional bullying, and much of it was caught on two nanny cams in their house. This is just a little bit from the documentary. So we go to the door and everything is absolutely beautiful.

Thinking, I think we've got to the wrong house here. These videos couldn't have come from a house like this. This has been going on for such a long time that, you know, this is who he is, drawn, broken. This is the fire of your children. You've been together for 20 years. Just emotions really, just didn't care. That's another level of abuse that we can't,

I still to this day can't comprehend. Every time I look at my sister, she couldn't look at me and I was starting to cry. It was this evidence that Richard eventually gave to the police after someone who knew the family finally alerted the authorities to what they thought Richard was being subjected to. Now when Richard and Shreve first got together he had high hopes for their marriage. He knew that his wife had a temper but he truly believed that they could raise a happy family together and that his love for her would help her but it couldn't have been further from the truth. Now this interview probably isn't for little ears so please do bear that in mind and we

will be discussing domestic abuse so if you've been affected by any of the issues raised, are in need of support too, please email feedback at times.radio and we will reply with the resources you need. I spoke to Richard last week and started by asking him about the evidence and whether or not his wife realised that she was being filmed. No, she wouldn't have thought that I would have the foresight if you like to save those recordings. So she was well aware that those cameras were in situ and that they were capable of recording.

So there was one camera in the children's playroom, there was one camera in our eldest daughter's room. And they were there primarily just from a parental perspective, just to keep an eye on the children. And also when I used to go to work, it was nice just to be able eye on the children and also when I used to go to work it was nice just be able to see the children playing in the playroom more. Sure how many other people do you think suspected that this was what was happening to you? Probably zero because I think it was that well hidden I think I did really did do quite a good job myself that no one would have suspected anything. My family, I became more and more estranged from them. And I think they probably felt it was because I was wrapped up in, you know, my new daughter being born and spending more time with her.

But Richard, were there any occasions looking back on it now where you think actually there was someone who you could have told there was a moment that that you could have left yes difficult thing to think about because i've always been physically bigger and stronger than she so i could have physically left at any time and i don't consider myself to be an intelligent i think i'm reasonably intelligent person i knew the things she was doing were wrong the The only reason I didn't leave is I couldn't put down to be at an emotional or subconscious level that the power or the emotional holes shed over me

for whatever reason was that I chose not to make that decision. There were lots of other things towards the end of the relationship where I felt it was literally impossible to leave in terms of finances and that I couldn't leave her with her children because she was drinking a lot of the time and there was no way I could leave her. But there were definitely lots of instances when I look back in time in hindsight,

particularly before we had children, where I could have made the decision to think, well, this isn't right. I always felt like you know the things she did were justified in one way or the other because I knew she hasn't had the best of upbringing in terms of things she'd experienced her and you know with her dad and things that happened to her in a relationship and I always felt you know I could save her I could stop her doing the things that were negative towards me. It's such a familiar pattern of an abuser, isn't it,

to actually be able to make you feel so small and powerless that it's on you to make things better, not on them to change their behaviour. If we can just move forward in time to the point at which she was finally arrested, how did that happen? Well, I'd taken the girls to my next-door neighbours for a barbecue. Everyone was having a nice time, and as time went on, I'd asked Cherie to come across to the barbecue,

but she'd had a few drinks and probably didn't feel comfortable going across for whatever reason. At some point during the evening, one of my neighbours said, would you like to join us? And then Cherie had got really angry and said said I shouted across the gate over the fence are you better bring the girls back it's getting it's getting late and then I think the neighbours were a little bit taken back because up to that point a lot of things had happened physically anyway that was the very first point ever that she'd exposed herself in public so I'd taken the girls back and then invited me to come

back to the barbecue afterwards I said I'm not sure because I think she's a bit angry and then I opened up to my neighbours because they're asking me a lot of questions about it and I didn't talk anything about the physical abuse I just said that yeah things aren't great and you know she can be controlled in certain ways after that I felt, because that was the first time in 20 years I'd spoke to anyone about it, that I felt a little bit more empowered and obviously I knew things weren't right, but in the chain of events, Sheree had got drunk and she'd phoned up my best friend, Tony,

and he was so concerned by the phone call that he came down to the house and met with us and he spoke to us both at the same time she basically was saying that I was drinking too much and put all the blame on me my friend listened to what she said and said well I'd like to speak to you both individually so he took me outside and asked me some questions and the first time in 20 years he asked me well how did you get the bruise on your face and I wasn't going to lie to him so I just told him the truth and then kind of said how long had it gone on for

and I said well forever really because you know yeah I've been gone on for since I've known her and then he took it seriously obviously and then he was the one then that made the decision to without my consent to contact the safeguarding authorities and that's when you know the police were involved in it and everything came to a head then yeah if it wasn't for him I could potentially still be in the same situation because you know I felt completely trapped I had no money and I was worried about because of the things that it opened she would shout out the window saying that i was hitting her and things and she told her friends and told me that she sent pictures of injuries to her

friends i felt like potentially the authorities could think that i was if anything at least as abusive as she was once the police saw the footage i mean there's absolutely no doubt about her violent behavior towards you and your status as the victim in that relationship Richard can I just ask you about what is still quite a taboo which is domestic abuse towards men by women and I wonder if you'd seen abuse against men more often discussed or portrayed in films, on TV, on social media, in conversations like this on the radio, would it have changed your sense of yourself? Would it have changed your own story, do you think? I think, yeah, I think probably perhaps it would have done

because the emphasis is, and quite rightly on the fact that ladies are more a victim of domestic abuse. That has to be highlighted. But I think it's highlighted so much to the extent that I didn't even, I didn't even recognise that I was a victim of domestic abuse. So I remember speaking to Sri and I remember saying to her, the things that you're doing to me, you could be in prison for. And then she, because she works in the prison service,

she knows about the female offender reform and she's quite adamant that she'll never go to prison. So she felt invincible as a female perpetrator of violence. I mean, it is a horrible, horrible irony that she worked in the prison service herself. I know that you have some thoughts about the sentence that she received, which was a custodial sentence and it was a four-year sentence. What are your thoughts about that? You know, the evidence was completely

extensive and overwhelming so they were confident that you know they had the best case to have even though like it was probably the most if you could call it the watertight case but they were still because of the stereotypical sort of you know the feeling is that ladies quite often especially with children don't don't go to prison because of the impractical potential of the children and men normally do go to prison that was the general assumption that you know don't get your hopes up on the day of sentencing everyone was really happy so it was a four-year custodial sentence on the face of it four years in prison is quite a harsh, not harsh, a just sentence, I would say, based on the things that happened.

Myself and the CPS and the police and everyone involved thought that was a just outcome. But unfortunately, when it got to the prison system, so she was sentenced to four years in prison, everyone is accepting that that's really two years, so it's halved. But to hear, after six months that she'd been moved from a normal prison to an open prison within six months of being sentenced to four years in prison, to just clarify the significance of an open prison sentence,

2%, which there's only two open prisons in the whole of the country, 2% of the female prison population is in an open prison. And generally those people in an open prison are coming towards a then sentence. To find out that someone who's just been sentenced, really, has been to an open prison, it's quite a difficult thing to get your head around. I think that someone that's been convicted of the worst case

of coercive control behaviour that's ever been experienced by that particular judge, after just six months can be moved to an open prison. It's quite lenient. In terms of people that are in an earlier stage to me, when they're thinking, well, should I go through the process of going to the courts and giving the evidence and everything, is the outcome going to be just? It makes you think that if they were to read my case and think, well, she got four years in prison, but after six months, she got moved to no prison, and after 10 months, she was allowed out on temporary some ways,

I'm thinking, well, even if I get justice, is it going to really be a just outcome? It's not so much for me, but for other people going through a similar thing. It's a difficult thing to understand, I think. Richard Spencer. So I'm sure anybody who watches the documentary tonight and anybody who has listened to the last 10 minutes just wishes him well, him and his children,

for the rest of their lives. He's been through an awful lot. And it just is true that for men, it is still less likely that you can see around you the stories of other people who are in similar situations to you and obviously that doesn't decry what happens to women and as Richard acknowledges so many more women who are abused by men but But I think part of the reason why he couldn't come forward earlier was because he simply didn't think that people would believe his story, take his story seriously, that there was an added shame, actually,

because he was a man being abused by a woman. So just all hail to him, actually. I really, really wish him well. So I appreciate some people might think I don't have the strength to watch the programme, but if you do, if you don't catch it tonight on Monday, then it is on the streaming channel five, which is my five. Great.

Not great. Which is my five. Okay, we will see you tomorrow. And thank you once again for all the fantastic emails really appreciate your continued interest and keep them coming at janeandfeeattimes.radio and I know we keep promising this

but tomorrow we will announce the book club choice we have made a decision haven't we? yes I've even got the book have you? did you order it right away? I did because I wanted to be top of the class yes even got the book. Have you? Did you order it right away? I did because I wanted to be top of the class. Yes. I never did make it and I'm not going to make it now. Yes, you did make it. You've quite often said that you were the cleverest girl at your school. What school? I wasn't. At your primary

school. Oh, I might have been at the primary school. I think that was only quite a brief period. Right, let's not open up this festering wound. Goodbye. Goodbye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five.

You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm sorry.