Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Not another one - Liz Truss resigns

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Another resignation and another Prime Minister leaves office this year - with Liz Truss becoming the shortest reigning PM in British history.They're joined by a series of journalists, commentators and politicians including Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary David Lammy and the leader of the Liberal Democrats Sir Ed Davey.And Jane and Fi reflect on a fortnight of big events in Westminster - and ask is it a coincidence, or are they cursed?If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I came into office at a time of great economic and international instability. Families and businesses were worried about how to pay their bills. Putin's illegal war in Ukraine threatens the security of our whole continent. And our country has been held back for too long by low economic growth. I was elected by the Conservative Party with a mandate to change this. We delivered on energy bills and on cutting national insurance. And we set out a vision for a low-tax, high-growth economy that would take advantage of the freedoms of Brexit. I recognise, though, given the situation, I cannot deliver the mandate on which I was elected by the Conservative Party.

I have therefore spoken to His Majesty the King to notify him that I am resigning as leader of the Conservative Party. This morning I met the Chairman of the 1922 Committee, Sir Graham Brady. We've agreed that there will be a leadership election to be completed within the next week. This will ensure that we remain on a path to deliver our fiscal plans and maintain our country's economic stability and national security. I will remain as Prime Minister until a successor has been chosen. Thank you. minister until a successor has been chosen. Thank you. And with that, Liz Truss turns and heads back in the door of number 10 Downing Street,

accompanied by her husband, having just resigned as leader of the Conservative Party. Well, there was an audible gasp in the street when she said she was going. There's been a lot of sign of Liz Truss digging in over the last fortnight, but I think a lot of her party were relieved at what she said there, and she did it with a good degree of dignity. It does feel like the pressure for a general election is going to become all but intolerable now. The opposition have been having a field day with the chaos in the government in recent weeks,

and I think there will be really, really difficult calls to resist for another ballot. Well, what a mess. This is not just a soap opera at the top of the Tory party. It's doing huge damage to our economy and to the reputation of our country. And the public are paying with higher prices, with higher mortgages. So we can't have a revolving door of chaos. I don't know, where do we start?

Rollercoaster ride doesn't do it justice, does it? It's certainly a day of days. Day of days. We'd love to hear from you during our programme just about your reaction to this. Not necessarily in a political sense. We'd like to hear about how you're surviving the turbulence just as an individual.

Let's bring in a listener called Amanda who emailed to say, well, you can read this for you. What does she say? So she says, Dear Jane and Fi, congratulations on your transfer to Times Radio. So inspiring and so professional. I personally cannot cope with current news in this chaotic world we live in. So your off-air podcast is just perfect.

Thank you. We've let you down already. Well, we have. I thought inspiring was generous. Professional is just a little bit inaccurate. Although the beauty of the fact that the two of us are doing this together is that when something goes pear-shaped or belly up, we can turn it into something vaguely chucklesome because we can talk to each other about it. I actually really felt today for Libby Purvis,

who was on before us, because she was battling against the tide of Liz Truss's resignation and it's quite tough to do live radio when all that is happening around you isn't it? Yeah very much so and and it's one of those weird things that although a day like today does kind of run itself in terms of the amount of content that comes into the program you know there is always someone that you're chasing and someone that you can get on air yeah it is also very difficult to string out a live commentary on something that happened at 1 30 because there's you know there are only so many ways you can skin that cat a woman came out stood in front of a lectern said she was off uh made some mention of energy prices and that was it yeah so i'm she's like i have to say she slightly sashayed back into she did she did an extra wiggle on that walk back in but we were talking about this on the program there's something about that walk back in

that is incredibly telling i think i feel a phd coming on ways that you walk back in from the lectern when you've resigned and let the country down. I think a university will take that. I think they probably will. It was the Jenga lectern as well, wasn't it? With the sort of funny misshapen bits of wood piled on top of each other. I have to say, it's not my favourite one. What is your favourite lectern?

Just the straight up and down. Is it? Yeah. I mean, Liz Truss, lest we forget, is only 47. It's very young. So that's very young to live with what might be, from our standpoint in 2022, a slightly toxic legacy. But hey, as Kerry Cooper, one of our guests on the programme, a psychology professor, pointed out, she has got the time to rethink her life, hasn't she? And it may be that history is kinder to her than we might suspect. But also she lives in a strange time where failure can be regarded as something incredibly valuable.

You know, the whole Silicon Valley mentality of, you know, you haven't succeeded until you failed, I think is very different. It allows an awful lot more kind of resurrection different it allows an awful lot more kind of resurrection than perhaps if you had failed in 1963 yeah rather than 20 getting into 2023 i always forgot what year it was did you well i'm not surprised i thought it's 2023 i'm thinking of the poor soul who's putting together the news review of the year it won't it won't be all that It won't be a quick one, will it? No. And you're really, really going to have to check your facts. I mean, you can't just type in Chancellor. You've just got a lot of options coming up. I have to say that the person who does the subtitles on television, on the news television channels, it's always a difficult job. And this afternoon, things were especially difficult. And I could sense that by some of the

wild inaccuracies that were appearing on screen. My favourite was not Sir Graham Brady, but Soak Graham Brady going into Downing Street. And there's absolutely no reason to suspect that Sir Graham enjoys a tipple. And I think to call him Soak like that is very, very disrespectful.

But it is an incredible... How you do that job i've no idea oh no it's on a computer now that's why it costs so much is it it's not a human doing it yep so it's the equivalent it's the equivalent of when you dictate actually you probably don't but you can dictate on your phone you found that button yet oh voice notes no when it comes out as text so it's exactly the same kind of computer program. No, no, no, no, no. OK, we'll save that for whatever year it is that's coming next. So look, Amanda, that's a very, very long winded way of saying that there was an awful

lot going on today. So if you joined us because you wanted to escape from the news, as you said in your lovely email, we're slightly letting you down with this podcast. Today on the program, we have been speaking to journalists, commentators and politicians to try and help us better understand what on earth has happened. Mercifully, we're also blessed with the wisdom of Charlotte Ivers, political correspondent. So, Charlotte, it was at 1.30 today that Liz Truss ended her tenure as Prime Minister. Actually, that's not quite true. She's got another week in the job. And she is now Britain's

shortest serving Prime Minister, which we'll talk about that a little bit later in the programme. It's not a great legacy, is it? You're a young woman, do you have a little bit of sympathy for her? Oh, I mean, it can't have been fun, can it? And look, I know that Downing Street has been a horrible place to be over the last few days, speaking to some of the people who work there, reports of tears, reports of people at each other's throats, splitting into factions. It has been rather unedifying to see, hasn't it? I thought the words of Graham Brady earlier when he was asked whether this was a dog's dinner, he said with remarkable understatement, certainly not the circumstances I would wish to see. And I think whatever our political leanings today, everybody across the country can unite behind those words. Right. But of course, we're

not sentimental. We can't afford to be. And history will roll on and we'll have a new prime minister, possibly, well, we're told, a week tomorrow. Who's it going to be? Indeed so. And we don't know exactly what the process will be to find out who that new prime minister is yet. But the thinking seems to be you get the MP vote out of the way in 24, 48 hours, and then an online members vote. And as you say, it'll all be wrapped up by Friday. In terms of the contenders, then Penny Morden has already declared she's got a snazzy graphic out. You remember she came third last time, darling of the left of the party. Is PM for PM back? It probably is. It probably is. I think I've still got a sticker which I stole from her campaign launch with PM for PM. So if anyone wants

to buy that off me, then I'll put that pitch out there. Now, I've also got a Rishi Sunak tote bag that I stole from his leadership launch. So there we are. I could clean up here. I could have afforded it last week, but it's inflation at 10%. No one could afford it this week. That is true. Well, Rishi Sunak, he is not yet declared, but a lot of talk that he might run. And then an absolutely remarkable bit of news, which absolutely blew my mind when Steve Swinford, our political editor, broke it. Boris Johnson is set to stand for Tory leader. He's been talking to friends about whether it's a good idea. And apparently he's coming around to the idea that it is.

Good grief. And what did Graham Brady have to say? So Graham Brady had this to say. Here he is. The reason I've spoken to the party chairman and discussed the parameters of a process is to look at how we can make the whole thing happen, including the party being consulted by Friday next week. And in the least surprising announcement,

what did Labour leader Keir Starmer want? There is an alternative, and that's a stable Labour government and the public are entitled to have their say and that's why there should be a general election. Which still won't happen, will it Charlotte? I mean I absolutely understand why Sir Keir Starmer is calling for one and millions of people all over the country would agree with him but it's not going to happen. It's probably not going to happen because the Conservative Party has the majority in the House of Commons and they have absolutely no interest in calling a general election. At the moment, the only way I can see it would happen is if whoever got in decided they needed a new mandate. And look, they would be pretty mad to do so given what the polls look like at the moment.

30 percentage point lead for Labour most of the time. Some of the polls showing them with the highest lead since records began. And can we do a little bit just on this process of how the new leader will be elected? Because it's a little bit confusing, isn't it? It's not going to be the system that was used over the summer, but it's not going to be a completely new system. This kind of hiving of MPs and Conservative Party members. Do you have any idea what in practice that means? Not really.

And the reason for that is neither does Sir Graham Brady yet. He was asked a fair few questions after that statement we just heard and he didn't have any answers. He will be meeting with the leadership of the Conservative Party, the sort of civil service of the party, if you will, today to talk about what the plan is for that leadership election. The Summer were reporting earlier that what they're hearing is the front runner at the moment is the idea of doing an MPs vote on the Monday and then putting it to members for four days

and getting a result on the Friday. And how will they vote? All online? All online by the looks of it, which is rather interesting. So there'll be, I'm sure, a panic scramble in the Conservative Party IT department at the moment to try and make sure all of that is ready and secure. But it is tricky. And actually, there's been a lot of talk about the idea of creating, for example, an immensely high threshold for candidates to get on the ballot paper to cut down the number of candidates. There's also been talk about the idea of some sort of gentleman's agreement whereby whoever's coming second just drops out after the MPs vote so that the members don't have any say at all. You remember that's what happened with Lidgetrust and Andrea Leadsom under very different circumstances. Yes, in your considered opinion,

Charlotte, what are the chances that a party that has demonstrated some of the most appalling behaviour in Parliament can manage something like a gentleman's agreement at the moment? It doesn't look hugely likely, does it? There seems to be two major factions really here emerging. So we've got Penny Mordaunt, who's just straight out of the gates with her own leadership campaign. There had been speculation she would do a deal with Sunak. Well, unless she's currently doing a deal with him behind closed doors,

make him her chancellor, that clearly hasn't happened. So let's assume we get Sunak as well. Let's assume we get Boris Johnson, and he won't be doing a deal with anyone, I think, to nominate Prime Minister. Well, look, I haven't asked him yet, but I'm sure we'll get our chance to in good course. And then there's the right of the party. Now, they are very concerned about the idea that there would be a coronation of someone like Mordaunt or Sunak. So I'm expecting them to try and field on their candidates. Kemi Badenock and Suella Braverman are the two at the moment

who seem to be trying to charm the right of the party to be their chosen person. Right, but there must be somebody in the Conservative Party who can bang heads together for the sake of the party's survival and say, stop scrapping like rats in the proverbial Westminster sack. Just pretend you can get on with each other for whatever it is, two years, 18 months, and then we won't lose the election quite as catastrophically as we would do

if it was held now. Well, look, if they do exist, then we should probably send them to the UN afterwards as a diplomat and negotiator. But they are great survivors, aren't they, the Tory party? You'd think they'd be able to see that and work it out for themselves. They are great survivors. And actually, I was speaking to a cabinet minister a couple of days ago who said the problem we're having is we've lost that instinct for survival. We've sort of given up. And actually, speaking to Conservative politicians, you do get this sense of a changed mood.

A lot of them just resigned to losing their seats. A lot of them actually saying, we probably need a period in opposition. We are not fit for government anymore. And you heard Charles Walker, for example, the deputy chair of the 1922 committee, essentially saying, look, we know we're going to lose. Our duty now is to country, not to party. What can we do to leave the next government in the best possible place? And the answer to that among many Tory MPs is find the most boring person possible

and just stabilise things. Yay. What the country deserves then. Can you see past the chaos yet? I can't really see past the chaos. I suspect the chaos will continue quite dramatically over the next few days because what you've got at the moment is a lot of ambitious people behind closed doors who are meeting with their teams, meeting with MPs, phoning MPs, asking for their support and trying to work out if they have a viable chance. That always gets extremely scrappy. It's only once

you get down to that final two or in the preference of many Conservative MPs, that final one, which will probably happen on Tuesday, that it will start to calm down. Because the sense is, well, I'm going to put it to you, is the sense that the Conservative Party members simply chose the wrong person. And they do not want to give those people that responsibility ever again, possibly. There is a bit of a sense of that. There is also a sense as well that any sort of protracted period of uncertainty will cause problems. And obviously, we can be a lot more certain on what MPs think because there are only 300 or so of them than we can on Conservative Party members. And I have heard from a fair few MPs who definitely just want the Conservative membership excluded. Rather

interestingly, William Hague, who is the one who brought that in, and now of course, is our colleague on The Times. He was saying that he regrets doing so that he brought this in when the Conservative Party was an awful lot bigger, as was the Labour Party, it was much more normal to be a member of a political party, whereas now it's only 160,000 or so people who voted in that election. So we are in very different times. I wonder if we could see some longer term constitutional changes as well in the party. I mean, you could also in the interest of fairness and balance suggest that Labour came up with Jeremy Corbyn, which may not have been their wisest move either. Yes, the Labour Party has had its problems as well. And of course, it has its problems when it comes to keeping its MPs in line with its party members,

because its party members tend to broadly be more on the left than the members of Parliament. Although the party membership does seem to have shifted quite a lot recently, being at Labour conference this year, it was very, very different to previous years. It was all an awful lot more men in suits and all very slick corporate events rather than previous years where it's been much more of an activist event really. So you are seeing a shift in that party. Callum MacDonald, Times radio presenter extraordinaire, has been at Downing Street all day. Hello Callum. Hello Fee. How are you? Thank you for asking. I'm all right, actually. I'm OK.

The sun is out, which is a great improvement. It means I'm not having to juggle microphones and umbrellas and phones and all sorts. Yes, I'm all right. Good, good. Just talk us through a little bit of what happened in front of you this afternoon at 1.30. I mean, as soon as Graham Brady went into Downing Street, everybody was definitely on high lectern expectant alert, basically, weren't they? Yes, that's absolutely right. I think the arrival of Sir Graham Brady, who, by the way, did go in the back door, not in front of us here on the main Downing Street itself.

I think that was really the moment. What was striking about that was the official spokesperson who at the time was briefing a journalist elsewhere in Westminster. It caught them by surprise. Basically the journalist put it to the spokesperson, we understand Sir Graham Brady's arrived, and it caught them off guard as well. There was then a sort of hastily issued statement saying the meeting was at the request of the Prime Minister. Now, while that may be true, at that point, when Sir Graham Brady of the 1922 committee arrives, it is clear that something was afoot. And so the bustle and indeed the buzz of Downing Street really elevated a notch or two at that point. I have to say the morning had been reasonably slow here with just murmurings of dissatisfaction. Matt Chorley of course had three Conservative MPs on his programme in the space of an hour publicly saying it was time for Liz Truss to go.

So the morning was picking up, picking up pace, picking up pace until Sir Graham Brady's arrival. And then yes, as you say, we got word of a statement and almost instantly the world's most lonely lectern appeared and was placed outside the world's most famous door where Liz Truss announced her resignation shortly thereafter. So it was just a one-minute-thirty speech. It was short, it was clipped, it was to the point. What did you make of her delivery? She's given us all kinds of different faces of Liz Truss over the last 48 hours, hasn't she?

Yeah, and I think just probably a couple of things on that. I suppose I was chatting to our chief political commentator, Lucy Fisher, and she described the speech as dignified. And I think that's right. But something else that struck me about it was I didn't necessarily detect a remarkably different tone or delivery in Liz Truss' resignation speech as you may have expected early on in her campaign. It was very much Liz Truss. The other thing of course that will define it forever more is that these resignation speeches tend to be talking up your achievements. What have you done? What has changed? What has improved? What is the legacy? And you said it yourself, it was such a short

speech because she's only been here 45 days and actually that legacy has largely been dominated by controversy, changes of direction, trying to understand how to navigate and impose some authority on a tumultuous Conservative Party. And so I think when it comes to resignation speeches, there was not much legacy to talk about, and therefore that becomes the legacy. It's that punchy, clipped, as you say, resignation speech from Liz Truss. But on a human level, you have to feel sorry for her, I think.

It must have been an awful few weeks. But politically, she came up short, and that's what that speech conveyed did you get any sense when she turned to walk away of you know the shoulders relaxing kind of thank goodness it's all over i i don't think so i think in liz truss there was a determination which in some respects i think is admirable, that what she was doing was right and that she was determined to do it, to follow this ideological direction that she campaigned on, that she has argued throughout, that she was elected on and that she was elected to deliver by Conservative members primarily, of course. I think that determination continued until the last. Sure there must be some relief in there but actually I think it's probably more of a feeling

of regret. There is no doubt that politically this is humiliating to be the shortest serving Prime Minister who couldn't corral the Conservative Party into some sort of shape and let's not forget, on a policy level, to have your ideology, your absolute determined direction, to have that incinerated in a matter of days is so difficult to stomach politically. So I think it's more

regret that it didn't happen. But I'm struck actually by Craig Oliver, former Director of Communications at Number 10, who was on Times Radio Breakfast this morning and he said something you have to realise about politicians is that almost inherent feeling as he described it that you will have a Churchill moment, that you will lead the country and that you will claim some victory over something at some point. That is what is in these people that are determined to become Prime Minister and so I think while there is regret, there is that probably lurking feeling in Liz Truss that

actually she was trying to do something right and just wasn't able to. Well, the opposition parties obviously want a general election and Sir Ed Davey is among them. He's the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I mean, obviously you're going to call want a general election, and Sir Ed Davey is among them. He's the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I mean, obviously, you're going to call for a general election, but you're not going to get one, are you? Yeah, let's first remember why we need a general election. You've had Liz Truss trashing the economy with her in front of Tasker. Before her, we had Boris Johnson feigning the country with his lies and deception and law-breaking. Because it has shown time and time again

they're not fit to govern our great country. And it's partly because they're so divided. We don't want another MP coming from the Conservatives to try and be Prime Minister and not have the ability to lead. And we've got real problems, huge problems. There are millions of people suffering out there, and we need political stability to be able to deal with those. That's why we need an election.

And Conservative MPs might try and avoid one, you're right. But they ought to do their P45s, and in other cases to spend years potentially in opposition, they are simply not going to do it, are they? And I absolutely take your point that in the real world, beyond Westminster wonkery, there are some real tragedies unfolding, aren't there? Something, in fact, I think you drew attention to in the Commons this week. Yeah, exactly. In the Commons I was talking about carers who are really struggling. And I gave the example of a family looking after their son who needs to be washed every day because he's incontinent.

They need to warm the water and they're worrying about how they pay their gas bill to heat the water to look after a disabled son. And that's the example of the real world, of carers who really need support. I could give an example from my constituency of pensioners, of families who are working and doing the right thing, but just are underwater. So across the piece, we see millions of people struggling with the food bills, with the energy bills, with the mortgage costs.

And the Conservatives have shown themselves incapable of coming together to provide answers to those problems. And that's why, Jane, I'm so keen and believe that election is the only way forward. I just don't think the Conservatives are capable of answering those problems. What would you, or how would you view the possible return of Boris Johnson? Well, I note that there is an inquiry in the Privileged Committee

into whether he misled Parliament. So how he thinks he can possibly stand, again, is beyond me. And I hope the Conservative Party just say no immediately. If they give this time of day, frankly, they're all tarnished by allowing that person who showed himself incapable of telling the truth, broke his own laws, it would be beyond the pale for a Conservative MP to give him a single vote. Remind us actually, when do hearings start at that Privileges Committee? Is it next week?

Do you know, I wish I knew the answer to that question. I'd be trying to work it out. Sorry, we didn't discuss it beforehand, so apologies. But on a human level, what do you feel, if anything, for Liz Truss? What do you feel, if anything, for Liz Truss? Well, you know, we know that different people who've tried very hard and worked very hard to get where they are, sometimes they don't quite cut it and that must be difficult for them to recognise. So, you know, no one wishes anyone ill personally, but I'm afraid she did seem out of her depth and that's going to be difficult for her to come to terms to

terms with but you know i have to feel sorry for the millions of people who are struggling out there who are suffering because of the mistakes made um it's absolutely clear while there's no difficulties in all countries at the moment the uk governmentatives have made our situation far, far worse. And I have constituents writing to me worried about food costs, worried about their mortgage costs, worried about whether they're going to be able to afford to pay their mortgage, whether they're going to be repossessed. These are the things that are happening out there. So I've got to be, to represent my constituents, all MPs should do that. And that's why I think conservative MPs look in the mirror, look into their own souls and get some integrity,

because they must realize that their party has caused this catastrophe for our country. We're looking at a winter where people will go cold and hungry. It could be a social catastrophe if this continues. And I just don't see any other way out of the general election. Sir Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats, thank you very much. We can talk now to Labour's shadow Foreign Secretary, David Lammy. Good afternoon from us, Mr Lammy. Good afternoon. Great to join you.

So you have been calling for a general election. I think, you know, we have all heard those calls, but it just seems incredibly unlikely that they will fall on kind ears at the Conservative Party. Well, it shouldn't be unlikely, should it? I mean, this is a great democracy. We are a G7 country and we have a seat on the Security Council. We have been traditionally known to be one of the cradle democracies of the world and known for economic stability, whoever, frankly, was in power. We've now had four chancellors of the Exchequer in four months. We look like we're going to have three prime ministers in three months. It's extraordinary frankly of course it's chaotic and it's not right that frankly

behind closed doors we have this sort of pass the parcel of conservative mps who parade amongst themselves they choose one with no mandate whatsoever from the country we're living through not just a mortgage crisis as a result of the decisions that have been made in number 10, but also an inflation crisis that was made in number 10. People are feeling the pinch right across the country. This morning, I was at school in Bedford with young people talking about the cost of living crisis and their parents worrying about putting food on the table. 35% of the school on free school meals. So this is serious stuff. And it's for that reason that we say to the

Conservative Party, do the right thing today and call a general election. Right, which so far they haven't done. Were you in Parliament last night, Mr Lammy? I was in Parliament last night, and I have to say 22 years in Parliament and I have never seen scenes of such chaos. MPs being bundled through lobby doors to vote in a particular direction, some of them in tears and chaos about which way they should vote and what the consequences of those votes would be. A deputy and a chief whip that appeared to resign and then took that back. It's extraordinary scenes and chaos that we should not be experiencing as a country. So if that is peak chaos and even in those moments, conservative MPs who were feeling the stress themselves didn't wake up this morning and go, actually, do you know what? We should put this to the country. We've completely lost our grip.

actually, do you know what, we should put this to the country, we've completely lost our grip. If that didn't happen, then it's just not going to happen until the Conservative government decides to call an election. So in that time between now and then, what does the Labour Party do? And how do you carry on maintaining that lead? Could it be possible the Conservative government starts to get things right? Look, let's be clear. What all of your listeners can see is that the Conservative Party is horribly, horribly divided. And they're going to see over the next few days as candidates come forward, how divided that party is with the ERG on one side, libertarians just to the left of them, and one nation Tories largely kicked out or ostracized from the party. It's a divided party, whoever inherits it's going to struggle. That's what's dogged all their leaders really now for

some significant time, certainly since Brexit. Everyone can see that. So what we're going to get is two years of instability at a time of a cost of living crisis, an energy crisis, a mortgage crisis and an inflation crisis. I mean, this is extraordinary. It makes the 1970s look tame. And it's for all of those reasons that the only way you get stability and a build up economy, not a trickle down economy, is actually to have a general election to put your case to people. And of course, I think that the British people will choose the Labour Party. They want a party that's stable, that's fiscally responsible, and is going to stand alongside them in this crisis. Sure. And certainly, you know, the recent polling suggests that that message has got across.

Who would you like to be fighting an election against? Would you like to name some names? I have to say on this sort of day, it would be venal to start picking which one of those MPs should walk through the revolving door. Go on, be venal. Treat us to some venality. Well, I think the suggestion that Boris Johnson, a man who's still facing a privileged inquiry, who lied to the British public and to Parliament, who made poor judgment in relation to someone who had apparently engaged in sexual misconduct, was indeed promoted. For all of those reasons, the idea that after four months, when so many people resigned from his cabinet because he wasn't up to it, he should be brought back is an

indication of the dire morass that the Conservative Party has. But in some ways, David, it would be rather a gift to you, wouldn't it? As you've just illustrated. But in some ways, David, it would be rather a gift to you, wouldn't it? As you've just illustrated. Well, it might be, but it would not be a gift to the British people and certainly not to my constituents for the next two years. And that's why in all seriousness, in good faith, the right thing to do is to put your case to the British people and let them determine the way forward. Are you expecting over the weekend to be contacted by more of your constituents who basically want to bring you their worries? Because the real work of a constituency MP is a world away from Westminster, isn't it?

There's all sorts of suffering going on out there at the moment. Well, you're quite right. And, you know, you start to see emails coming in from people who are not looking in at Westminster every day. But of course, they're looking in this week and this last month because of the turmoil. And they're actually quite scared. They're scared about what instability or further instability might do to their bills that they're already tremendously

worried about that's the seriousness of this moment and look i don't i don't jump and jump up and down that the conservative party has so lost its way um because any democracy relies on a degree of stability within all political movements but the truth is we do now need to stop this pantomime we cannot continue with this pass the parcel of who is running the united kingdom do you know how much you're going to have to move your own economic and fiscal plans because of the moves made by the new chancellor a phrase that we have used quite a lot over this week they hopefully won't be using again next week but are you privy to any of that kind of fiscal arrangement well it's a very good question we've now had too many budgets without proper fiscal forecasts alongside them we await the

proper budget on the 31st of october with a proper fiscal statement from the OBR. We've seen the estimates, the Institute for Fiscal Studies suggesting a gap of £62 billion, but some suggesting it could be as high as £74. We've seen the U-turns that will deal with some of that, but we still don't know quite what we'll be facing as a government. What we're clear on is that we will be fiscally responsible, that we will only spend what we receive on tax receipts. Where we do invest in the economy, it's for jobs and prosperity. And we set out a green prosperity plan to the country, GB Energy, which is about jobs and prosperity and leading our country on nuclear, on solar, on renewables. That's the future that we want to set out for the British people.

Paul in Swindon, who's a listener, wants to help you out, David. He says, I've got a slogan for Labour. They'll win the next election with get Brexit undone. How about that? Well, look, I think the definition of madness is re-litigating an issue that the British people have made a determination on.

Many will know what side of the debate I was on. I was very clear remainer, but the decision has been made. We want to govern for the entire party. But what Paul is right, we will not be picking unnecessary fights with the European Union. We would tear up this protocol bill

that breaks the rule of law and international law. And we would roll up our sleeves and we would negotiate with the European Union and of course we'll be dealing with all the problems that have arisen. One of them is being outside the horizon science scheme, another is the friction that we're seeing on the border with Northern Ireland. There's much that we can attend to in partnership I hope with the European Union. There we are, there is your pulsating roundup of everything that happened during our times radio show today thursday october the 20th oh well done 2022 that was david lammy concluding that david

lammy of course of the labour party who wants a general election um shall i do an email from lovely liz yes go on so she says dear jane and fee i was delighted to hear that i can now have you chattering in my ears all week rather Rather than just once, your intelligent and thoughtful insights, well, don't worry Liz, that'll fade away, and self-deprecating and humorous discussions on the chuff of life are a highlight to my day. Could I ask whether you could do a section on Rachel Reeves at some point? Until this last month, she hadn't been on my radar at all. But there is a distinct chance she may be our first female Chancellor in the near future. And I would like to know her a little better. I'm off to bed now

in a rare day off, ill, I do hope you get better. And I'm taking where the crawdads sing with me on your recommendation. Yes, I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'm hoping to be ill for long enough to get through it in one sitting. I really love that. I know exactly what you mean. If I'm ever not desperately unwell, and thankfully I haven't been desperately unwell too many times in my life, but just a little bit unwell, I do always think, I do hope this lasts the length of this book. And can I pack the book into the illness in a perfect kind of time? When I'm feeling unwell, and like you, I've been very lucky and I don't often get ill, I don't really like to be in my bed. I really don't. Well, where do you go?

I stagger. Have you got a private hospital wing? Yes, I have. Now, I always stagger to some sort of soft furnishing because I want to keep the bed for special night time. Oh, so you can slink into the fresh sheets. Yes, absolutely. Well, fresh-ish.

I mean, that's a moot point in our house about changing bed sheets. I don't always get around to it. I know. This is from Josie, who is in New Zealand. Your podcast, Magic. And I'm just sorry I can't catch your live show, she says. I'm not an insomniac or so devoted to you two that I'd wake up at three o'clock. Well, I don't see why you shouldn't change that, Josie.

Come on, make an effort. However, as somebody who changed careers from journo to lawyer a couple of years ago, and also in my late 50s and menopausal, yada, yada, yada, I applaud you for refusing to take the pats on the head from those who think we older women should slow down. And instead, you're putting yourselves out there. Jane, re your daughter's student flat. I had the same experience with my own daughter, but in her first year in the halls of residence, I was never allowed into that one, actually. all the horror was packed into one room rather than spread through the whole house. This does sound appalling. It was g-strings, congealed noodle bowls, thousands of t-shirts and jeans piled high, hair products, nail polish on every surface and even lumps of human

hair from a session where her and the other girls on her floor decided to cut their own fringes. Somewhere under it all were the actual tools for study, like books and laptops. I too itched to clean it all up, but I was roundly scolded. Anyway, she's 25 now, qualified and grown up, and wouldn't you just know it, she's a little Miss Tidy. tidy yes let's hope they do change she urges us to visit um when it's your winter warm pacific greetings await and jane it's only 24 hours on a plane do you know if we ever did travel to new zealand to a tour of ourselves performing ourselves as we like to do i'm not going on the same plane as you you're absolutely on your own i'm just i'm not going on i think you would just confuse me

with the stewardess and that's not going to happen. But think of the opportunity to put airplane mode on there. It's the only thing that actually, I mean, genuinely, I'm sure it's a beautiful place, Josie, I really am.

But I just couldn't face that journey. Why I'm thinking about this, I do not know. Certainly I shouldn't be overthinking it because I'm not going to New Zealand. You've just got to get home to East West Kensington. That's right's right enjoy the podcast we're back on monday have a lovely weekend when you get to it and i'm not a big boozer but i do fancy a drink

tonight well in that case the aston that says old soak jane garvey is completely correct thank you right yes have a lovely weekend when it does turn up in your life and we are back on monday and already i find myself curiously looking forward to it. Creep. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live,

then you can Monday to Thursday, three till five on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.