Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Not in birthday month, please. (with Jill Halfpenny)

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

The festivities continue for Jane's impending birthday with several Colins en route - no expense has been spared! After she's finished opening some cards, they discuss blushing, draughts and Jane's toes. Plus, Jane speaks to actress Jill Halfpenny about her memoir 'A Life Reimagined: My Journey of Hope in the Midst of Loss'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you know whether the Pope banned eating meat on a Friday? I think it might have been a papal decree. I don't know which Pope. Right. Well, I sometimes wish the Catholic Church would get their priorities right. Anyway. Do you know what? I wouldn't have forgotten,

but I probably wouldn't have remembered until I'd got up the escalator and then I'd have to go back. So I'll get a Colin. I might get a Colin and something because there's quite a lot of people on the team now, Jane. Well, we've got new people every day. How far do you think a Colin usually...

I think Colin usually does 11. I think probably six people around here okay so get six get six colins you won't be able to carry six colins would you no i wouldn't this is anyway turning into a very good advert for a store that really doesn't need our backing i suspect it's doing perfectly well without it yes but uh no but please don't go to any trouble for god's sake the least convincing phrase that i've heard i thought i did that quite well this side of the last time a labour government was in power now uh jane this is this is your last chance to wish jane a happy birthday because we're both off on our holidays. We're here tomorrow as well.

No, but that's what I mean because if people are listening to it tonight and they want to be able to wish you a happy birthday they've got to get something to us today in order for me to be able to read it out in a very sincere voice tomorrow. That's all I'm saying. Are you across it?

Yes, and I've had a lovely card from let me just mention this um oh it's just well it just says it's from r so um to that to that listener thank you very much indeed i'm glad it's r anyway and i'm glad that your 60s have lived up to expectations and it should be my freedom pass i got the email to say that my photograph has been approved now so hopefully it should be in my possession later this week. And I will start riding the buses as soon as 9.30 comes round. Is that the deal?

That's the deal, yeah. OK. So there used to be this thing where I think the bus pass... I think in Liverpool it used to be you'd be called a twirly. A twirly. Yeah, because you turned up twirly to claim your free travel. So to try and slip one in at 20 past nine or whatever it was. So you'll be fine for this job.

Yeah, it's excellent. Because we don't have to be at the office until about 11 o'clock. No, so it's ideal. Yeah. It's almost like when they invented it, they had me in mind. Okay. Now, after yesterday's podcast, which I think Fee was having one of her, I don't know, you were off-kilter yesterday with your thoughts about Sykes Hadlen. Then we got on to Her Majesty the Princess Royal and things took on a very strange turn. Oh, I need to open this card as well. So I'm going to give Fee a little chance now to just right some wrongs after yesterday. Well, I didn't mean anything untoward about Princess Anne being a little bit different,

but she does, when she wears her military uniform, she wears a trouser, which enables her to ride horseback in a normal fashion, and she doesn't have to do the side saddle. And I have absolutely no idea why I was thinking about side saddle riding, really, but it's just a monumentally odd thing. I mean, the idea that young ladies used to, you know, do point-to-points and stuff like that, side saddle, jumping over whole fences and stuff, is just ridiculous. Well, can I say, I did make a plea yesterday

for an email from someone who could actually just tell us about the skill set required to ride side saddle because I imagine it is considerable. You've got to be a properly good rider to even attempt that, haven't you? I think you've got to have unbelievably firm core muscles, haven't you? Yes, and the late Queen managed it, I think, well into... I think she was still doing it in her 70s, from memory. So if you do...

She's a remarkable lady, Jane, I really miss her. You see, you've gone off on this. I gave you an opportunity to be sensible today. So, I am the more sensible of the two of us. Might be hard to believe. Jane and Fi at times.radio, if you can tell us about riding side saddle. Okay, Jane.

Right, shall we move on to some of our emailers' contributions? This is about blushing. Please keep me anonymous for this. We're so happy to always do that, but do let us know. And actually, have you put it at the top of the email? Because sometimes, you know, we read out the whole email with your name and then we have to, well, Eve has to put in a beep. I was just catching up on yesterday's podcast

and heard feet mention her experiences with blushing as a young person it struck a chord with me as a young girl i rarely spoke with adults outside of the family home and whenever i was in any sort of social setting either face to face or on the phone i would spend ages rehearsing how the exchange might go and ways i might respond and invariably i would get up to the counter fluff my well-rehearsed and memorized lines go bright red and end up stammering my way out of the shop often empty-handed. My blushing continued all the way through uni and really hampered my ability to engage in lectures and with hindsight I can see that I often chose paths in life that allowed me to avoid situations

where I was likely to blush. I often wonder where my life could have taken me if I was able to live fearlessly without this relentless worry dictating my choices. Now at the age of 50, I seem to have crossed the threshold into a life free of blushing or the fear of it. I do have the occasional moment when I sense the beginnings of a blush,

but it doesn't seem to consume me in the same way it did. And the freedom I feel as I go out into the world unaffected by this affliction is really liberating. What I've learnt growing up and growing old with this affliction is that the very best thing you can do for people who are blushing is to ignore it. Pointing out that somebody is blushing is incredibly unhelpful. Well, I would agree with all of that, our anonymous correspondent.

I think it's very... I think people underestimate just how uncomfortable blushing is. And if you are the person who's blushed, you can tell immediately that people have noticed because they don't, nice people don't draw attention to it, but they try and look away from you or look at something else on you or whatever it is,

you know, to avoid making it worse. And there's just nothing you can do until it dissipates we've just triggered a memory actually of i do remember this it was in a seminar at university and we had one especially acerbic would you call them seminar leaders or tutors i don't know he wasn't a tutor he was a lecturer i suppose anyway um we were talking uh about writing poetry and he looked around the seminar and said, does anyone here write poetry? I just went bright red. He said, does anyone here apart from Jane Garvey write poetry?

And I just thought, oh, God, why have you done that? And he did do it and everyone tittered and I felt, shall we say, less than 100%. Yeah. It was a suboptimal experience, that. So I went home and wrote another poem about it. So I meant to ask you, and in the moment I didn't, and one day, dear listener, we will hear all the poetry

and we'll be better for it. But you know when you were saying that you weren't very confident as a child and you really didn't, you know, I think probably you would be unrecognisable actually to your younger self now. So what changed? At what age did you just get the confidence that you now undoubtedly have? It's a bit like, well, I have a sort of confidence,

but it's not, I mean, lots of people who've made their living like us talking are not actually especially confident in their everyday doings, but they have an ability to do this. It's not actually quite the same thing, is it? It's not, but I think for people who are restricted by their shyness throughout their life, it's interesting to hear what it is that's enabled somebody to get over that. Because, no, for sure, I mean, you might not be the same person

when the microphone's not on, but you definitely have a confidence about you. You've made your way in the world, you know, being able to say what you want and what you think. Yeah, I would love to know what did tip me over the edge because I completely understand that emailer. I mean, I too have been that child just shriveling up in a shop, practising what I was going to say to the lady behind the counter.

And we had another email, actually, from a listener who remembers going to the Chippy on a Friday. Have you seen that email? They just say that they used to dread having to get to the counter to ask for fish and chips, because they were sent with their sister, and it was them that had to speak, and they just hated it. Because sometimes adults are really... They can be quite,

they can slightly laugh at children, can't they? Or young people when they sense a little bit of nervousness. Anyway, so I do feel for everybody who's been there, I would just say that there's a point, perhaps a tipping point, when you realise or you come to realise that everyone is faking it and that you too can fake it and that everyone is not looking at you because they're actually a narcissist,

probably like you are, and they're largely thinking about themselves. Yeah. I mean, that sounds very cynical and I don't mean to be cynical, but I think we all have, we all carry through us in life a certain, well, all our experiences.

Actually, that brings me on to our guest today, who is the actor Jill Halfpennyny who's just had a life that i think it will surprise a lot of listeners because i you know she's a very successful british tv star actress performer but she's someone who carries with her a great deal of personal personal grief which she's had to learn to live with and live around it all her life, really. So I'd be interested in what people think about what she has to say about all this. But how do you lose that nervousness that seems to come to most people in their childhood and adolescence, but not to everybody? So I think it can be a combination of things, can't it? I think sometimes it's when you get to the age

where you make proper relationships with people outside of your family and your school. So if you've got those two environments, you know, where you've become used to who you are and who everybody else is, I think it's quite hard to change yourself, actually. So I think for some people maybe it dissipates. And I suppose I'd absolutely agree with your point but also I think it's something to do with realizing that most of the world is just incredibly busy

and actually you know they they don't have time to worry about the person who's a little bit yeah reluctant to come forward at the chippy there's another customer behind them so you learn to kind of just be more in the background it's you're not the main character um in everybody's world although i do love what is that phrase you are yeah you still are but obviously yes thank you yes yes not in birthday month please there was that terrible remark about kirsten yesterday which i'm not over i should be speaking to people i really really didn't mean it to come out like that. I know you didn't. But I have got neck cream if you need it. Quite a lot of it. Neck cream.

OK. Yes, I'm really interested in what people say about this because there are people who seem to be able to learn how to fake it till they make it at a very young age who actually don't seem to go through that awkward adolescent phase where you hate yourself, you hate the way you look, you hate everything about everything.

But maybe they're the last people you should ask because they just never have to kind of question it, do they? But then it doesn't necessarily mean that their life will be without incident or challenge, does it? I hope not. No, indeed. Oh, dear. This one is about Princess Anne.

It's from Susan, who says, By the way, can I just say, some people have written in claiming to be Princess Anne, and we're not that daft. OK. It was a good effort, but no. Well, I don't know. We've got Chris Martin's sister on board.

That's royalty. Hard-working stalwart Princess Anne never misses an opportunity to ride. She rode to the coronation in an interesting hat. She trooped the colour, sitting on her horses and escaped from the tedious formality of her duty. She has to concentrate on the horse or he does his own thing. It takes work to keep a highly bred horse still. Susan goes on to say most horsey folks are addicted. You don't get saddle sore. Sitting on a horse is more comfortable than an armchair. It also provides you with steady concentration and a companion who answers back and the seats are heated too that's that's all good to know

isn't it heated in the sense that the animal is hot the animal is hot and presumably that comes through the saddle and i mean people are addicted to horse riding aren't? I really don't know whether we should pursue this fee. I mean, I think there is always the theory, isn't there, that, no, I'm not going to go there. No, go on, Jane. No, I'm absolutely not. No, go on. No, I just think, let's move on to an email from a listener

who's talking about things that are good about Britain. Welcome on board, Jane. She says, I'm not main Jane or substitute Jane. I'm just your regular plain Jane. There's nothing plain or regular about you, Jane. She says, I'm not main Jane or substitute Jane. I'm just your regular plain Jane. There's nothing plain or regular about you, Jane. Thank you for your email. She listens regularly. Not every day, she claims.

Well, she doesn't make any claims. She just says regularly. We'd like to know how regular you are exactly. She's in Zurich, though, where she's been working for the past 14 years for a medtech company. But she is from the UK. And so here are her top three things about Britain. Number one, robins and badgers. Who'd win the fight, do you think, between a robin and a badger, Fee?

Oh, badger. No, because the robin could fly away. Oh, I don't know. You see, not as easy as you think. No. Number two, Jane would like to mention choirs and organ music in churches. She says she's not religious, but she likes the sound and the atmosphere of music in churches. I'm with you on that.

Yeah, agree. But her number one favourite thing about Britain, and I didn't expect to read this anywhere, is drafts. Not the board game, but what you get with old British windows. I used to think that drafts were something to get rid of, but now I realise they provide a necessary connection to the outside world. If you live in a completely insulated modern building you lose the acoustic connection to what's going on outside and you isolate yourself from nature and the world. Drafts also give a heads up of what the outside temperature is so we don't step out surprised and have to go back in to change. I love that.

I love that. And what a fantastic point to make, because you and I both get driven mad by having to stay in hotels where you can't open the window. I hate that. Oh, God, I can't bear it. I hate that. It sets off a little bit of panic

that turns into quite a lot of anger, actually. I don't like it at all. I am a trillion billion percent with you. And I'd never really thought about it enough. But you're absolutely right, dear correspondent, that it's the connection to the outside world. I don't like losing that at all. No, never.

And I love that sense of something just kind of trickling in as well. So, yes, give me a drafty window casement any time. Yeah, I have got a draft excluder in the shape of a very, very long cat. And it's not very effective, but it looks okay. But I don't really use it because like you, I like to feel the breeze. Yeah, I think the modern obsession with keeping a temperate climate is also a little bit weird. I think it's quite good to get a bit cold at night

and then warm up during the day. Wonderful. There you go. This is the one about the fish and chip shop. Shall we have it in full? Marie says, Thank you so much for reading out my email about lunch hours. You're right about Covent Garden.

It's so touristy. Not a sarny shop in sight. You can't move for street entertainers. Spray gold or silver posing as inanimate objects or levitating a few feet off the ground. Now, how do they do that, Jane? You know the ones that she means, that Marie means? Yeah, I don't know how they do it.

Just the stillness ones as well, I can't comprehend at all. Can they slow down their heart rate? Well, we've got to be a bit careful here. Don't they get cramp? Because we said the other day we didn't like the street entertainers. No, I don't. Now we're marvelling at them. Well, no, I don't like them,

but it doesn't mean that I can't be curious about them. The man who looks like he's been caught in a gale force wind with his umbrella blown inside out is a real head turner but it must be agony standing there for hours. Can I just quickly add a story inspired by your listener yesterday who was sent to buy cheese as a child? Well yes you can. Marie says they

were brought up Catholic and back in the 60s eating meat was banned on a Friday by the Pope I think, although I might have got that wrong. Do you know whether the Pope banned eating meat on a Friday? I think it might have might have got that wrong. Do you know whether the Pope banned eating meat on a Friday? I think it might have been a papal decree. I don't know which Pope. Right.

Well, somebody will be able to tell us. I sometimes wish the Catholic Church would get their priorities right. Anyway, it was always fish on Fridays. So aged eight and nine, my sister and I were sent to the fish and chip shop. It was a nerve wracking experience for a child and we dreaded it. There was always a queue and the idea was that when you got inside of the shop door, you had to shout out your order. That way it would be ready when you got to the front of the queue.

We were both very shy, but for some reason I was the one who had to do the deed. I'd like to think it was character building, but that thought never occurred to this eight-year-old. So I really, I see what you mean now. So you're not only in a public setting, you've got to really draw attention to yourself in a public setting. But that's quite a good idea because then the queue would move quickly, wouldn't it? Yes, exactly.

Yeah. I used to think as a child, perhaps I'll just get away with pointing. Will that be enough? What kind of things did you end up having to eat? That was the problem yeah um now we're not allowed to mention the merchandise that we've been discussing well because we've been there's been a flurry of interest in acquiring one of these things and it's just putting a bit

of a load on the staff but i just wanted to say to frank who's in uh the republic of ireland um that i thank you very much for your email on that subject. I'm emailing from over the sea in Dublin. Actually, it's where the phrase to chance your arm originated because he says that's what he's doing. He's chancing his arm, hoping that he might get one of our bits of merchandise. If memory serves, it comes from the willingness of an Irish clan leader

to extend his arm through a hole in a door to make peace with an enemy, despite the risk that it might get sliced off. Ooh! Good God! I tell you what, you didn't want to fall out with an Irish clan from The Sound of Things. Frank is one of our intellectual listeners. He started listening around 2016.

He says, well, I don't think we started in 2016, did we? Or did we? No, I think it was 2017. He describes himself then as a disenchanted 20-something, procrastinating rather than finishing, about his doctorate. But he did finish it in the end. Fortunately, he says, he followed us from the other place and off-air is now keeping him sane.

He is retraining as a therapist. So not only is Frank highly intellectual, he is useful. And off-air is now keeping him sane. He is retraining as a therapist. So not only is Frank highly intellectual, he is useful. Yes, we might need him later. Yeah, and we're keeping note of his address, just in case your arm-chancing pays off. He says, Dublin has an embarrassment of literary and cultural festivals. Please visit one of them.

Now, I tell you what, that would appeal. You can get as far as Dublin? I would love to go to Dublin to do a podcast show there. Well, let's do it. Come on Dublin's literary festivals. Let's see ya. Yeah. Well, the bus is staying in work, isn't it, after the election.

Times Radio's got an election bus that's doing the rounds of the constituencies. Country. I was aiming for country and then I just went wrong. So yes, it's going around the country and it's going to stay just as the Times radio,

not just an election bus afterwards. And I think we are allowed to take it to various places. We're going to the Cheltenham Literary Festival, aren't we? And the bus is going to go there. So there's no reason why we can't go across the water. Oh, yes, no reason at all. And there'll be some literary biggies with us, won't there, at the Cheltenham Literary Festival.

And this is in the autumn when we could be living in what some Conservative politicians are threatening us with, this one-party socialist state. So who knows? Maybe the Cheltenham Literary Festival will be cancelled because it doesn't fit in. Well, I mean, it is struggling because of the main sponsor, Bailey Gifford, being told to go and do one.

Do you have strong thoughts about that? I think it's really difficult, isn't it? Look, I mean, in the commercial world, and we know now because we're in the commercial world, it's the real politic thing comes into play, doesn't it? And you could pick holes, certainly in what we've done and you know you could people would have things to say i'm quite sure so uh it's a very very tricky one how do you find a squeaky clean sponsor for anything is it i mean is it better that the literary festival goes ahead with money

from a source you may not wholly approve of or do you want the literary festival not to exist i don't know so just a very quick recap for people who are thinking what are they talking about now bailey gifford has pulled out of its huge sponsorship of some very big literary festivals in this country edinburgh and and Cheltenham in particular, because a group of protesters, Fossil Free Books, wanted to draw attention to the fact that some of the investments made by Bailey Gifford are in the fossil fuel environment.

And there were some quite high-profile people, authors, who said that they would boycott the festival too. So eventually Bailey Gifford decided that it would sponsor the festivals no more, which leaves them in a very, very precarious position. Because there isn't any arts funding, not realistic arts funding to that kind of level from the government anymore. And an awful lot of people are very worried

that the literary festivals won't be able to continue. I agree with the view. I think it is a contracting of the arts if you make it answerable to every single political thing and because i genuinely jane i don't know every single thing that a product i buy might have invested in i don't always know every single detail about a supply chain. I'm doing the very best I can, but it may never meet a very high bar if somebody were to scrutinise it very heavily. And I'd really hate those literary festivals to disappear completely. I think it's a nice thing

to do, to go and listen to authors talk about relevant stuff. I mean, if you're a football fan, you have to be a bit watchful these days about who the sponsor of your team is. Very. Well, yeah, very. So where do we start there? You know, do you stop supporting a team because the people who own the thing are really objectionable,

morally questionable, whatever it might be? I mean, it's, to say the least, a complicated area. It is, it is, yep. And I'd like to think that there was a better way of doing it, actually, but, well, let's see what happens. Can we talk about crackers? Of course we can. Bring in Philippa.

I had to write in after hearing Jane's comment on the 5th of June about how crackers are always advertised with a picture of a piece of cheese, as if no one would be clever enough to have the idea of pairing the two. I cannot walk past the crackers aisle in a supermarket without giggling. My friend Will and I always think that the titling of a box of crackers as biscuits for cheese is like a protest slogan for a marginalised group of crackers of all shapes and sizes, marching down the street, holding placards and chanting, Biscuits for cheese! Biscuits for cheese! What do we want? Biscuits!

What do we want them for? Cheese! It might be juvenile, but we've been laughing about this since we were teenagers. We are now very nearly 40. And each time I buy a box of biscuits for cheese, I send him a photo to which he responds with a voice note, chanting the slogan. Philippa, thank you very much. I love this because there are lots of these very, very niche,

private jokes between very old friends that will only ever make the two of you properly laugh. But this has been something that you've just been doing now for quite some decades. And it continues to bring you pleasure. Philippa and your friend, I hope you carry on for many years. May it last a very long time. Yeah, always remain packet fresh. Final one from me. Well, they know, but crackers aren't in a box. Oh, God, no. They're not in a packet.

This one comes from Sally, and it's a misheard anecdote. Some years ago, I worked in an office a few doors away from the local solicitor. We often bumped into each other on our lunch breaks. And on one of these occasions, he told me he'd be retiring soon. Knowing how committed he was to his job, I asked what he'd do with his spare time. Oh, he said, I'll be kept occupied. I've 14 acres. I thought, wow, how impressive. On his retirement, I dropped around a bottle of wine and wished him

good luck with his forthcoming gardening I don't really enjoy gardening so I won't be doing much of that he replied a little bit confused I asked him how he had managed his 14 acres I don't have 14 acres I have four teenagers your podcast keeps me company on my way up and down the A17 from Norwich to Lincolnshire every week to look after my 92-year-old mum. Well, Sally, we send you our very best. We send your 92-year-old mum our very best. And I hope that the A17 is a damn fine A road. I'm not very familiar with that one myself.

I don't know that one. But I hope it's OK. But if it isn't, and if you've got an A road that brings you real grief. Well, I mean, Eve's about to embark on a journey down to... Ill-advised. Yeah, very ill-advised to the West Country, passing past Stonehenge, summer solstice, A303, nightmare.

Nightmare. But we wish her well. Thanks. Thanks to Kath, who's just written in praise of my feet. And quite frankly, this is going to become... I wonder if this is something I could earn a few quid from. What do you think, Fee? I don't know, but I can feel a spin-off podcast called Toe Curling.

I wasn't surprised when I heard Fee mentioning that Jane had been told she had good feet when I saw you on the Insta. I tell you what, if you get pests after reading that out, it's entirely your own fault. I don't think Kath's a pest. When I saw you on the Insta with the new Book Club book, I zoomed in on Garfield's gorgeous trotters.

Not a fetish i just thought nice feet though jane and what beautiful and well manicured tootsies i won't say for a woman of her age as that's the age i am but i've totally wrecked my feet years of misspent youth squeezing my feet into ill-fitting shoes uh she turned 60 six months ago kath and and ever since, she says, I've had a strange feeling of impending doom. Oh, Kath Gordon, Betty. You've had that your whole life. Yeah, I have. So maybe now you turn 60, or about to turn 60,

you'll become a bright ray of sunshine. It's possible. Yes, it is possible. Maybe it's time to get the cardboard cutouts of Peter Allen and Julian Warwicker out of the basement. It could well be. I know what I'm going to get on Sunday morning. My mum will ring me to wish me happy birthday, even though she's seen me the day before.

But hey, you know, she'll always ring and I'm very lucky to have her. And she always says, it was about 10.30 that Mother Monica said things would hurry along if I had some castor oil. And I thought, oh God, I am going to hear that again. Anyway. I should have got a guest.

It was a difficult birth. Let's bring in... But hey, Mum, it was worth the effort, wasn't it? He's a bit silent on that. Well, because you're asking your mum. I'm not your mum. Oh. But now to Jill Halfpenny, who is a TV stalwart, no doubt about that.

She's star of many a soap. She's been in EastEnders, in Coronation Street, and in hit dramas like Channel 5's The Holiday. She's also got strictly on her CV. She won the second series. But her life has been far from easy. Her father died when she was just four. He'd just gone out to play his regular game of five-a-side

and then had a heart attack. In 2017, her partner Matt went to the gym and died after a cardiac arrest. I told Jill I had absolutely no idea how much she'd been through. Yeah, you know, I mean, there's no reason people would know what I've experienced or what I've been through because I haven't spoken about it and only people that are close to me would know um so yeah I think I think a few people have already said that to me oh in fact even my um one of my best friends who's mentioned in the book she left her book at her mom's house by mistake and her mom's picked it up and started reading it and I mean I spent so many days at her mom's house and she's like reading it and I mean I spent so many days at her mum's house and she's like I didn't know this about Jill so you know I think even people close

to me will still be surprised because there's lots of inner workings that I talk about and inner thoughts and it's not something you particularly share even with your friends when you're growing up it's just I mean I will say it for you so you don't have to but you have lived through two incredibly significant losses uh your dad when you were just four and just about to start school which i think is really significant and then your partner matt in in 2017 and and both of them were i mean sudden deaths they they left your life and your house you were living in and they didn't come back yeah that is incredibly unusual isn't it yeah i think it's unusual for it to happen to you once and it's incredibly unusual for it to happen twice and also in very eerily similar circumstances you know they were both kind of doing a form of exercise when it happened and like you say, just left with no warning.

There was no illness to speak of. There was nothing to worry about and then they're gone. And yeah, so along with the grief comes just a shock that the world is, the world has been turned on its axis basically. Do you ever now just get incredibly angry at the injustice of it all? Because as you say, this doesn't happen once to the overwhelming majority of us, and it's happened to you twice. I think I did have a lot of anger,

and I'm not saying that I don't still have some. Of course I do. But I do think I've worked through quite a lot of those feelings of injustice. And I do, I know this might sound weird, but I do still think that I'm quite a lucky person. I don't know why I think that. Because you could say, come on, have you read the book? But I just, for some reason, I feel like it's all okay.

And I still feel like there's so many good things in my life that it's okay. Well, you've got a healthy child for a start. And you've known love in your life. That's absolutely true and comes through in the book. And you've had an amazing career, which we will also talk about. I just wanted to make that clear. But the fact that you were just four when your dad died what year was that that would be in the 1979 and things were very different then um I I think now if that happened to a four-year-old things would be put in place

yeah you would hope but what what happened to you it was 1979 and we're in the northeast of england and my mom was left with three children and i honestly think it was a case of we just need to get on with this we just need to do this and we need to just keep soldiering on and really that's what we did and i can't even remember and i've asked my sisters about this as well who are both older than me I don't even think one teacher even had a conversation with us at school I don't think one conversation was had I think the attitude and the way forward was let's not mention it and it's what I talk about so much in the book is to not acknowledge something like that is so much scarier than somebody just acknowledging it and saying I think you know you might be having a

hard day today or I'm sorry to hear about your dad Jill even if I was just little to not say anything feels like you're the alien and everybody else is living in a different reality yeah i mean to younger listeners who think oh that can't be right i'm older than you and i know it is right that was people didn't speak about these things in 1979 and you were left and your sisters to flounder really um nobody was horrible to you but no one was especially helpful either, I think that's like no one was like my experience was not that I was treated badly in any way. But it's the to not acknowledge something. I had it when I when I when I lost Matt, which was, you know, in 2017. I had a friend of a friend who I stayed with for a few days, maybe six or seven months

afterwards. And they also didn't acknowledge it. And it's really, it's a strange, it's a strange thing to do to someone to not acknowledge. Obviously, it does, it's not violent. No one's hurting you in that way. It feels weirdly violent, though. Just say, just, just, just just just just acknowledge just say I'm sorry just look into someone's eyes and just say you know I hope you're okay but to pretend it's not happening it's like it's like not being seen and when you're not seen that feels very very scary now when you were just four, you, not surprisingly, were very anxious about things. And I can well imagine starting school was a big enough thing for those of us who haven't known that kind of experience.

But for you, quite naturally, you were just worried that your mum might not be around at the end of the day. Yeah. How did that manifest itself for you? Just every morning going to school, there'd be an anxious conversation. I don't want to go to school. Why do you not want to go to school?

I don't know. I just don't want to go. I couldn't put it in words. Just go. You have to go. Have some breakfast. I don't want any breakfast. I'm not hungry.

And then every, I would break my day down into sort of very small increments. I'd be like, I've got to get to school and I've got to sit down. And then the first thing we'll do is a spelling test. And I know I've learned my spelling, so I'll be all right with that. Then it's milk break and I'll get a biscuit.

And I know biscuits are all right and they make me feel a bit better. And I would break it down. And then by the time I'd had dinner, I would just worry then for about two and a half to three hours. What if my mom's not there when home time comes? What if she's not there what will I do how will that feel I mean it was just endless it was just an internal dialogue that went over and over and over and I just didn't have the words to I didn't really know that that was happening I wasn't conscious that it was happening I thought everybody thought like that so it was kind of torturous, really. Later in the book, you go on to describe

some of your very early successes in acting. And you were very much a child who was, you won roles, you got parts, you were, you know, you were all singing, all dancing. But there was, at the heart of everything you did, there was often a sort of emptiness that even at moments when you should have felt huge joy, it was really, really fleeting.

Just tell me about that. I think when you experience any sort of trauma or loss, if it's not processed properly, and by that I mean if you don't talk about it, if you're not heard, if you're not listened to, if you don't grieve it, then you carry this energy around with you in your body and it feels like you're almost stuck in the shock in the trauma so as I grew older sometimes that that trauma and that anxiety it drove me it was my driver it it made me work harder I was achieving things but then when I would get those things or I would get a job or I would do a show or a play and it would be fantastic what I couldn't

do was it was like it was like imagine that somebody hands you joy and it's like a you know a stone and they there you go there's some joy in your life. And I take it. And then suddenly the stone would turn into liquid. And I'd be like, oh, oh, oh, it's going, it's going. And it was like I just couldn't hold on to a feeling of joy or happiness because I think the fear was it's just going to leave me anyway. Whatever I like will go. Again, like completely unconscious. These were not thoughts I was having

but I realized as time went on that every time I got something that fulfilled me it would it would be moments days later that I would just need something else and what sometimes filled the gap was alcohol yes and I think you write really well about, I'm not going to say, well, you can tell me, let me just rephrase that, sorry. You make it very clear in the book that you were not drinking heavily on your own seven days a week, but nevertheless, you still had a problem.

So I think this is quite a complicated area because I drink and I don't think I have a problem with it. And I imagine most people listening will be in the same boat. Yeah. How would you describe your drinking? I think that, you know, any addiction and alcoholism, it's progressive. So, there are people that come into recovery at 18 years old because they feel that they drink in a way that for some reason doesn't sit right with them. And that's how I would describe my drinking. It wasn't relentless and it wasn't always, but it was like, sometimes I'd be fine. And sometimes I wouldn't be fine. Sometimes I would wake up in a friend's house and I couldn't remember getting there.

I would black out, which is a real sign of alcoholic drinking. And it really just, for me, you know, we talk in recovery about sort of low bottom and high bottom. And it just depends what you want for your life at what point. Like, if I had just carried on drinking the way I was drinking, would I have ended up drinking every day? I couldn't possibly answer that question. But what I what the conclusion I came to was this is enough for me. This is enough for me that I know I put something in my body to change the way I feel why am I not all right with the way I feel already because other people just have a drink and I just have a couple

of glasses of wine and they're fine with it but I wanted to change the way I felt because I didn't like the internal dialogue I didn't like the constant dialogue of why you're here you're crap crap, you're unlovable, you're not doing it right, you know, you need to be better, you need to be better. So that, the alcohol dampened down those voices for me. And I knew very early on that using something for that reason is not a healthy reason. So it took me a long time to, instead of just trying to control it, oh, I won't drink red wine. Oh, I'll have a glass of water in between every drink,

all of the tricks that everybody tries. And I just thought, hey, how about this? How about not doing it at all? How would that feel? And amazingly for me, it felt brilliant. And I couldn't, I was like, is that all all it took for me to just be okay with not drinking I feel much better for it you know but I wonder around the time that Matt died so suddenly yeah what was your relationship with alcohol like then well the truthful answer is that there were many nights where I just thought it would just be easier tonight if I got drunk. Just, just, or like, if I just drink tonight, I could just wipe out these next six hours before I go to bed or I could just pass out and fall asleep. But what, what you're taught to do in recovery is they call it like play the tape forward. So what I can then do is say to myself, Jill, you can do that.

You can pick up that bottle of wine and you can drink and you can knock yourself out. But in the morning, will anything have changed? No. Will you feel better? Definitely not. Will you regret having drank that? A hundred percent. So they're just my choices then. Will you feel better? Definitely not. Will you regret having drank that? 100%. So they're just my choices then.

If I play the tape forward, I realise that apart from that two hours of me feeling a bit drunk and then passing out, what's to gain from that? Blimey, though, it must have taken real guts, that. I truly don't know quite how you managed to work that out for yourself. There was some tough nights. There was definitely some tough nights where I had a sort of, like, a conversation with myself about it.

Yeah. But I always came back to that conclusion, which is I know in the morning it's not going to feel better. So I couldn't bear feeling any worse than I already did. And I was like, when I get up tomorrow, this is already going to be ten times worse. No, I can't deal with that. In a way, I feel that I'm being intrusive asking these questions,

but you have written about all this, and I think you're probably going to be helpful to a lot of people. I imagine that when Matt died, your son, you then remembered what you'd been like as a four year old and how people hadn't explained what was going on. So how did you approach dealing with your son when Matt disappeared just in a flash? What was that like? So I remember making a promise to myself, because when my dad died, and we just got on with things, for want of a better phrase, what you do is you become like a little detective in your own life. So you say to your adult or the person that's caring for you, is everything OK? And they tell you that it's OK. But you know by the look on their face or by the

tension in their cheeks or their teeth that things are not okay so then you start to question yourself and you become distrusted of your own judgment so what I didn't want for my son is for him to hear the words everything's fine but for it not to look fine because Because really, we communicate non-verbally so much more than verbally. So I just said to him very early on, I'm not okay. I'm really, really not okay. But you know what? I will be at some point.

So what I want you to know is when you see me cry and when you see me having a down day, I'll be really honest with you about where I'm at. But I need you to know that I can survive this. It's just going to take me time. And he seemed to receive that and respond to that really well. He wasn't frightened by it. I mean, I wasn't throwing myself on the floor, you know, like wailing and screaming. I wouldn't have done that in front of him, but I was as honest as I could be. I would say to him him today's not been a good day so

do you mind if we sit on the sofa and just watch our favorite program because that's probably all i've got in me today you'd be like sure yeah and i honestly think we have such a nice relationship how old was he at the time just he was i think he was nine yeah he was he was nine. So he's 16 now. And we have such a lovely relationship that I do think that the truth has benefited him. And hopefully it means that when he, you know, inevitably experiences life suffering, he will go, I've seen the people closest to me suffer and I've seen that you can survive it

and you can possibly, you you know learn from it as well I was really shocked by how quickly you went back to work was that because you let's be honest because you needed to and in your business in particular it's a fickle old world you've got to get back out there or was it because you felt it might help you I think it was a bit of all of those things I think that yeah I'm single I needed to pay the mortgage you know I think it was a bit of all of those things. I think that, yeah, I'm single. I needed to pay the mortgage. You know, that was just a very practical decision. But there was something about the movie that I did.

It was called Walk Like a Panther and that was the first job I did back that it was so ridiculous and outrageous and the part was so silly and fun that it was almost like, of all the parts I've ever been given, that was the part I could be the least me. Right.

So I thought, I could just go and be so not me and maybe lose myself in it. And there were so many men on that set. It was predominantly a male cast and men are um brilliant at just playing games and not talking about much and actually what what happened to me on that job was I knew I was gonna go back to the pain and the grief I knew it was waiting for me but what happened to me on that job was I felt like a 10 year old again playing out in the street I felt like when we were playing games we're making like bets for like a 10-year-old again playing out in the street. I felt like when we were playing games,

we were making bets for five pence here and there. I just felt like, oh, maybe it is possible in the future to be joyful again. Maybe that hasn't completely eluded me, so it actually really helped me, that job. But it was a gamble, I'll be honest. I think it was a gamble because it could have went the other way. And how are you?

Today? Today, I feel good. But talking about the book and talking about everything that's in there for these past few days, obviously it stirs things up in me as well. So I am good, but I do feel quite emotional as well. That is Jill Halfpenny talking about her memoir, A Life Reimagined. And I can only just say actually what a pleasure it was to spend a little bit of time with Jill. And I very much hope that her book brings comfort to people who will have been through similar experiences.

I hesitate to say the same experience because, Fi, she was astonishingly lacking in bitterness about the, I would say, the very tough deal she's had. Yeah, and it is unlucky. Really? It is more than unlucky, and it would be absolutely fine if you spent the rest of your life feeling that Lady Luck had deserted you. I'd really understand that. Yeah, but she doesn't seem to be that way.

She's not so inclined. But, you know, I think it's such an interesting point, Jane, about doing book tours when you have written something really quite revealing about your own life. And I'm sure that there are quite a few times when an interviewer, and the wrong thing will say something the wrong way and it must really hurt it must really really hurt so i think just props to uh to people who kind of um it's a different thing isn't it to sit in a room on your own write your story and to then come out in public and answer lots of questions about your story they're two very different things you need to do one

in order to facilitate the other. The person who's listening at home will then go and buy your book and go back to being just one person telling a story. But the bit in the middle is complicated. It must be extraordinarily difficult for people in that situation. I just hope she I think she does feel better for getting it

out there. And actually it may even help her to talk in the right way about it. But as she says, the worst thing that people can do if you have a friend who's been bereaved, the worst experience that you will go through is basically being let down by people you thought would behave better or would just acknowledge your suffering and your loss. I do really get angry these days with people who,

for whatever reason, perhaps to protect themselves, will not confront a sadness in somebody else's life. You know, in that moment, it just is not about you. Get over yourself and talk to the person who's grieving. Yeah. Or whatever it might be. Yeah, but it's not like we don't know that. We really do know that.

Everybody should know it, shouldn't they? Yeah. Anyway, we love reading your emails um some cracking ones have come in over the last couple of days thank you all so much uh jane and fee at times dot radio so we will be here again tomorrow and then both jane and i are way on our holidays next week so if you are thinking about sending us an email there's kind of no pressure you've got the whole of next week take it easy uh if you've thinking about sending us an email, there's kind of no pressure. You've got the whole of next week. Take it easy.

If you've always wanted to send something in, why not take the opportunity to do that at your leisure sometime next week. And have a very good evening. Good evening. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us

every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank?

I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.