Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Not the return of the winter vagina

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

It's Monday! Head over to the YouTube to see Jane's fresh restrained-plum pedi and Fi's wardrobe malfunction: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi/featured We hope you had a lovely weekend and didn't spend too much time in hard trousers... Jane and Fi cover Churchill on a light jog, brutalist barbers, and body shaming houses. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right, we are... Hello, by the way, hello. Hello, we are visualised on a Monday people now. It's Monday visualising. Yes, that's right. So I put on a frock especially for this. And then I slightly regretted it because although it really, really, really should be summer by now, Jane, across the United Kingdom. It's actually winter in our hearts and in our nether regions. And I've been quite chilly again.

Not the return of winter vagina. I thought we'd knock that on the head. It's back. No, it's just very cold. But it will be summery and sunny later in the week. You've just got to be patient. Yes, but it will never, it will always be winter in the wind tunnel outside our office, which very nearly, very nearly gave me an embarrassing moment on the way.

Oh, really? Well, because I've got an A-line skirt on. Right. The wind whipped up it. And I had my hands full, obviously, with my coffee and my tamari-salted umami alman's this morning. blimey we just used to have nuts peanuts or pork scratching

what's happening to us on that fantastic display behind the bar where the more you bought the more of a woman's bubars you could see and I just just in case people are wondering

they don't do that in it zoo they really don't imagine if they started just the outcry that they would be from today's snowflakes if that started happening nothing wrong with it

what did you call it Bubage. Bubage. Yes, okay. Well, I had a lovely weekend of... I'm so sorry. How was your weekend? No, it was good.

It was all right. But I had mainly... You're going to seg into a nut anecdote. No, mainly a weekend in hard trousers. But I think sometimes you have to do it. I mean, I've learned from your Presbyterian approach to self-discipline that sometimes life's not about pleasure or enjoyment. It's about a degree of suffering.

So hard trousers a hoi and I enter the week with a new purpose. Okay. I don't want to ruin your tummy time. No. I was good. You don't want to ruin my life. It's been quite interesting reading some of the emails about Katrina O'Sullivan. So I'm going to do a few days in this one.

Definitely because they're across the spectrum. Yeah, they are. And they don't all agree with Katrina or me in my approach to her during the interview. So absolutely take that. I just want to do a shout out to the, I have to say, I think incredible and patient staff at London's much maligned Houston station. Because when I got back from Liverpool. It's often by you.

Yes, exactly. But no, because I've praised the lose, which have markedly improved from a very low base. But on Saturday evening, they were dealing with great throngs of Manchester City fans who'd had more than a couple of bevies celebrating their, I thought, rather, turgid win, great goal though, in the FA Cup final and people who'd been to marches in central London on Saturday. Some of whom had also, Fiona, taken a drink. Yeah, well, there were two massive marches, weren't they, in memory of Nakbar Day? And also, unite the kingdom.

Yeah. So, look, I wouldn't have, I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't have gone to either march. We probably wouldn't surprise many people. But I have to say that the staff, sometimes you just think, I wouldn't do that job. And I really admire the patience of the people who do it. So to them, I saw you. dealing with all sorts of crap. Well done.

Thank you for being there. Also, can I just say, don't take a cross with you on a march unless you are genuinely a penitent Christian. If you're just someone who, no, I can't even go there. Just don't do it.

I do think the church has got to do, they've got to speak out a bit about these people taking that Christian symbol and using it. It's not right. It can't be right, can it? I don't think it's right, Jane,

because I'm, I mean, we're on hiding to nothing if we doubt somebody's faith. Of course. So that's, yeah, okay. That's not what we're doing. I'm sure some of them were in church the next morning. But, I mean, well, maybe. Maybe they were. Yeah, maybe.

But that symbol, the symbol of the cross is being used to say, my God's better than your God. That's what it's about. Yeah, that's right. Fundamentally, that's it, isn't it? Marches. It's using the Church of England and Christianity as a, this is what we all belong to and you're the nasty incomer and you're the heathen and we were here

first. That's what it's doing, isn't it? Well, let's just think of the pagans because they were here first. Yeah. And before them, I'm sure there were lots of other people. And where are they in the marches? I also, I find the phrase unite the kingdom. Really? Really? Are you sure? Okay. Well, is that working? Yeah. I really. I really. He didn't mean to pray it and I have done it. I've just, I thought. Yes, well, well, sir, because if you're a member of staff at a busy station. Or in the police actually. Like that. Yeah. And you get up on Saturday morning, you have 975 other things you'd rather be doing with your day than pacifying people who don't want to be pacified.

So I'm completely with you. And that's not hugely in the job description when you join, is it? It isn't. And also, Houston Station is one of those. railway stations that has a piano now. Lots of them do, don't they? Yeah, they do. You know, is there's one at St. Pancras International. There's definitely one at Paddington. Yeah.

And it is rather a lovely addition to the fabric of our national life, I think. There was someone going hell for leather on the old Joanna at Houston. Actually, first thing on Friday morning as well. Anyway, look, I'm here for them. I like to hear it done. It's better if it's done by someone who can play the piano in my experience. And not everybody who attempts it can. There's an organ here at London Bridge, isn't there?

Is there? Yes, there is. An organ? An organ. Where is that? So that's just behind the shop that you like that sells moulded chocolate. Oh, yeah. It's behind there.

And next to the flower stall. Okay, right. And that's very, very rarely played by someone who's competent in the organ. Because it is a bit niche. Well, yeah. I mean, we want you down there with your own bonus. No, you don't ever. in an underground situation with my oboe.

Okay. Well, anyway, lovely dress, and I've had a pedicure first of the season. I know. Bless you. No. No. Because you are wearing, and the pedicure is lovely. She is.

What shade would you say that is? I would say that it was a restrained plum. Restrained plum. Which pretty much sums me up. And you are absolutely determined that the world shall see your pedicure on a day when it's going to piss down. Yeah, all that. Just as we're leaving work.

I've also shaved my legs. So, you know, come on. I'm making an effort. Come on summer. Right, actually, which brings us on to the important discussion I wanted to have about appearance in the light of Katrina O'Sullivan talking on the podcast last week about her memoir, Hungary. And let's start actually with this from Anonymous. She is a teacher. I was surprised to hear your discussion yesterday about telling young girls that they're pretty or beautiful. Your correspondent suggested that she may never. tell her daughter she's beautiful and I found that quite unsettling you can compliment your daughter and build her up without giving her the impression that her entire value is based on her appearance and that's the challenge isn't it yeah because i i totally get that and i i do think it's really important that you do say this is what i would do you do say how lovely they look and then you get yourself in a bit of a tangle because you don't want them to think that's all they've got to offer the world, or even worse, that it's their duty to get out there and look gorgeous. Because it's not.

Anyway, our correspondent goes on. We also have to consider the long-term effects of this approach. I'd be surprised if that listener's daughter grows up without self-image issues, if nobody ever tells her she's beautiful. My own mother told me when I look great, but I've never considered my appearance to be particularly important or a particularly significant part of who I am. What I did grow up with, however, was a positive self-image and a strong sense of self-confidence. I'm starting to think the world has gone mad at this point. I'm a secondary school teacher and the mother of a lovely daughter myself, and it breaks my heart to think of children growing up without being told that they look lovely. I enjoy your discussions and value your consideration of different opinions. I don't have a son,

you've got a son. Would you tell your son that he looked handsome? Yes. Yeah, you see, so then what is the difference? I think you should in as much as you should also compliment a daughter who looks her best. So I think there's definitely something when I say you look great

and I'm not sure that I'd say handsome and I'm not sure do I say to my daughter you look beautiful I don't want to treat them differently with regards to their appearances so there's definitely something

going on there where if they're both standing in a room together before going out why would I only be saying that the girl look lovely and like it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter if you don't, you know, because you've got the world at your feet, so you'll be fine. That's not what I'm saying to him at all. But I think it's incredibly important for young people to have confidence in their bodies.

And we've had so much correspondence about the fact that that's almost irrespective of how you look. It's somehow finding the ability to make kids and young kids. people feel there's something about them that is absolutely fabulous. And so beautiful, pretty handsome are quite loaded terms, aren't they? But I'm struggling to come up with all of the words that are great that wouldn't convey that there's a pecking order of how you look, which is based on a very, very certain notion of beauty. That reminds me. There are many reasons why I couldn't run to be the leader of the Labour Party. Well, give it a show. shot because everyone else is. I know everyone's having it going, but I could not be photographed going

for a jog. And it's just, what is it about these people? Do they all go jogging? So Andy Burnham has been photographed, hasn't he, is doing a little bit of running. In his signature shorts. So I think it would be incredibly difficult for a woman to go running because you would think that you would be photographed in a moment, which is unflattering to you. But that doesn't bother Boris Johnson. No. I mean, never has the been a man who has looked more. So right.

Daffed when he's running. And also it's such a bad advertisement for running. What of the worst. If I can say something. There was a very, very, I found a life-enhancing article in the Sunday Times yesterday on message, Mandy. He's checking in early this week. Well, corporate Kathy will be in. She'll be in later.

Just saying that actually walking was just as good for you. I loved that. If not better. I read all of it. Yeah. I read all of it. Very slowly. I even finished it.

Yeah. because it had a message for me, certainly. I like to, you have your trademark bustle, which keeps you incredibly fit. I don't get up to your high velocity bustling, but, you know, I don't do badly. And for me, that works. But these men who do fancy a shot at this job

that is just about impossible to do, and in Boris Johnson's case, he's actually proved that it was certainly impossible for him to do. But you're right, he strikes me as being a man. with every bit of confidence in his body image that it's possible to have. Because he used to wear a hat as well,

didn't he used to wear a silly hat? A silly hat that kind of stuck up on top. Beach shorts. It looked like the top end of a condom. Let's be honest about that. I don't think he ever used them. So maybe he just wore them instead. Or maybe he was using a knitted condom.

Oh, and that's where it all went wrong, possibly. God. What have we got ourselves into here? Well, let's get out of it quite quickly. Yes, okay, let's. But your original point about... What was that? Male and female appearances

and what it is you're trying to tell somebody when you say you look good. I think there is a more loaded element when you're talking to a young woman. But also, Jane, let's be real about this. There's a certain outfit that a young woman wants to wear and absolutely should be able to wear if the world was a better place

that sometimes it's very difficult to find the right. comment to have as a mum because you know that they do look gorgeous and they look incredibly attractive and they have confidence in themselves when they're looking in the mirror. Yeah. Well, that's just ironic, isn't it? In a conversation about, to be honest, I think we should leave that in. Keep that in, Eve. I was surprised to hear from Eve because she's had some trouble with her phone and she's lapsed

into a kind of sort of state that only her generation can ever. when they have phone problems. Oh, she's just a little bit dead behind the eyes. Isn't that fair, Eve, a little bit like that? Okay. Well, I think I... Are you? Okay.

She had a, I think, quite a torrid day of partying yesterday. Do you know, I think we'd make more sense with this whole conversation. We just did it in our bras and see what the comments are underneath, whether or not people would be really listening to what we say, but that's the whole point, isn't it? I can't just say I can't do it in today's bra. Is it not one of your best? It's not one of the ones either. Oh my goodness. So the emphasis is on the naked toes. But were you to have an accident, God forbid. Would you turn up in A&E and they'd refuse to treat you?

I think they might actually today. I think they might. So let's broaden this out to the hive. It's finding the right words to say, you look fantastic. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, young girls are wearing what we know as moms because we're old and we've seen too much of the world are a potentially dangerous outfit. And it's so awful to say that. No, I'm with you because I'm 100% that person who never thought I'd say it. No, me neither. You can't go out dressed like that. Yeah. But I've said it. Yeah. And in my youth, I was probably a younger woman who did go out, you know, dressed in stuff that now I just think, and it's an awful thing to say.

I was lucky, you know, that. Gosh, that is awful. Yes, no, but it is, Jane. You know, and it's so it's dreadful in that moment when they're just about to leave the house, knowing what it is that you should say for all of these different repercussions and sentiments and whatever I'm always, always, always, always

open to advice. Just back to Katrina O'Sullivan. Susanna says there's no doubt Katrina O'Sullivan has done very well for herself from an absolutely horrific childhood and she really has my admiration. But I thought some of her views were cliched and judgmental and they had me shouting

out loud at my phone. It's an old argument the idea that women shrink them because they want to be lesser. It was a sort of surprise 80s throwback for me that I thought we had moved on from. And the assumption that if you choose to have a relatively healthy lifestyle and go to the gym or exercise, that you're secretly miserable and part of some patriarchal conspiracy, I think, is plain wrong. I'm glad she feels she has an audience who respond positively to what she's saying, but I wish that Jane had challenged some of the statements she made. I'm 64. I've lived a life. I'm still working and for the past two years have been on a

weight loss journey using Monjaro. My overall health has improved dramatically. I've started exercising regularly, really enjoying it. My mental health is the best it's ever been. I don't know why people feel the need to overanalyse everything and make it political, but it seems they are on a perpetual loop. Meanwhile, I'm so glad to have finally got off it. My concern, is that part of Katrina's narrative fuels this outdated and damaging conversation. So basically, Susanna there takes issue with the notion that I think the expression that Katrina used was over yogurt. She takes issue with the idea that that is some kind of patriarchal thing that we're buying

into the notion that women have to be tiny and not take up too much space. I still think, by the way, a lot of women do believe that. And I thought Katrina was right that some of the middle classes do. do do too much exercise and are almost frantic in their approach to it. But I think what Katrina was saying, and I don't want to paraphrase somebody who definitely knows her own mind, was that this issue about bodies and how you should look and how you look isn't restricted to working class people or people who haven't had the right education.

It's basically everywhere you look in society. Look at Princess Diana for heaven's sake. You know, she clearly, well, she was bulimic. and wrestled with how she looked and how she was judged for her entire life, it would seem. So anyway, we take all, I totally appreciate that you felt that I should have sort of taken that on. And for whatever reason I didn't. And I apologize if you were annoyed by it, Susanna. But I truly don't know, I don't know what the answer is.

Not for the first time, Fee. I don't know what the answer is. And do you worry that we're heading into an even more kind of tight world? around weight because of Manjaro. Because of Monjaro. Because thin is really, really, really, really, really. It's back. It's back again.

And it's really thin, isn't it? And too thin. Yeah. Anyway, look, I'm really interested in the view of that individual who's been on Monjaro and now feels better than she ever has. But we don't know where it will get us all in 20 years, do we quite? Although I also appreciate, and her point is very real and very significant. it is of huge help to some people.

Yeah, and it's making people feel better in all kinds of ways they weren't really expecting aside from the weight loss. Yeah. And a few random comments come in from Judith, who is in the lakes. We'll get out.

Yes. You'll stay in too long. Lids, why so many pans and Liz? Does everybody have a range cooker? I'm not judging just curious. I have five plus a large frying pan. How many do you have? Lids or.

pans? Five plus... Pans. Pans. I've only got... I've got a large frying pan, a small frying pan. And three pans,

four pans. Three lids? I hope this is the bit they clip. Because it's... I'm properly going for it in terms of accuracy. I don't want to mess anybody about. I think that is the right answer.

So you've got nine? I've only got one pan with a lid. No, I've only got one frying pan with a lid. No, just pans. Are we? Just pans? Yes. I've got a small pan for eggs.

Yeah. I've got a pan for medium pan and a big pan. And then I've got an even bigger pan. So you've only got four pans? I think so. But I've got frying pans as well. I've said all this. Okay. I don't know how many pans she's got, Judith.

We'll get to the bottom of it one day. Concerts, I've never left one early. There have been a couple I wish I had, Rush, and Jane's addiction, both of which I succumbed to my husband's music choices. I can't name a Jane's addiction. No. Judith, you suffered there. You have.

Well done, lady. That's a very supportive position you've held there. I think it's perhaps because we usually have to travel to a city minimum of 90 miles and have made an effort that we should get our money's worth. I can completely understand that feeling. I can't read out your body image actually because you wanted that bit kept anonymous. But I've read it, Jane's read it. and I'm glad that you're in a much better place now.

So thank you for taking the time to write to us. We were also asking about the difference between male comments on appearance and female comments on appearance. And this is a fantastic one from Adam. Your listener asked about whether men are subjected to comments about their appearance, having lost 16 kilograms in the last year due to Manjaro. I heeded all the advice and was determined not to lose muscle by 10. taking up and maintaining a gym membership.

I must say lots of people both men and women have commented on how well I look or that I am in good shape. At Park Run recently, a fellow runner back from a prolonged injury break said, fuck me, mate, you're looking hot. I'll give you an alternative in case you can't put that out. Who came back after a prolonged injury break said, F me, mate, you're looking hot, which did in all honesty make me blush. My journey kick started partly because I'm due to turn 60 this year. and my wife and I have big and very active plans for retirement.

We'd like to know about those. Being active. Yeah. But also because my brother surfaced a picture of me from years ago in which I looked like an American spectator at a golf tournament, round face, chino pleats and a tucked in polo shirt, highlighting my mobs and a firm but large belly. And I do love that description.

Firm but large. No, just the American spectator at a golf tournament. Oh, yes, that. Yeah. I love a compliment who doesn't. and my weight loss and fitness journey has been made easier, reinforced and reaffirmed by the positive comments. Whilst I still stand up from a chair with an audible,

oof, it's quieter, but I feel more energized and healthier than I have for many years. Now, this is interesting. I don't know if it's peculiar to Australia or our social set, but if we invite friends around for dinner, the female, it's just such an Australian thing. The female. That's not really very good at all.

The female makes an effort, blow-dried hair, makeup and a lovely frock. Meanwhile, the husband inevitably rocks up in cargo shorts, thongs or flip-flops, as you call them, and a 1,000-washed t-shirt detailing the tour dates of his favourite heavy metal band. Oh, and more often than not, they're sporting that half-shaven homeless look

that's all the rage. I'll always say that she's wearing a lovely frock and looks well, and as I hand the bloke of beer, pointedly ask, just got out of bed, mate. If a woman's pride in her own appearance isn't rubbing off on their husband. And if most husbands are the same, then who is she getting dressed up for?

Other women, I guess. Well, I suppose that is the answer. But I'm completely with Adam. You do see a couple, heterosexual couple sometimes, where you do think, not just why is she with him, because sometimes you understand that the man in question is very, very funny.

Or a wonderful cook. Or rich. has an icer. Yes, all of these things. Yes, absolutely. I'm saying that's a joke. No, I'm not. I'm certainly not.

But it's that making an effort. Yeah. And I fear that in Australia, I mean, the cargo short, if I ever did become Prime Minister, I'd be very tempted to just say no to the cargo short. But the cargo short... What cargo are you carrying? The cargo short is better than the Andy.

Burnham short short, you cannot want to return to the incredibly, I mean, we've met DJs who've been wearing those at work and it's a hazard. It's an HR hazard. You're not meant to mention that to me. Some of my HRT pepped off, I think. So I think the cargo, I don't mind the cargo short. What I don't like is the cargo short and flip-flops. I don't know why, but that just, it just, you're not going to be able to.

to do very much. But your short suggests you can. Well, exactly. I'm Mr. Capable. But you wouldn't be able to run across the road, you know, and save a child who's gone after a football. You wouldn't be able to do anything. You wouldn't be able to go up a ladder.

It wouldn't really be able to drive road haulage. So really, your top half is not matching your bottom half. No. I just think there's something about an occasion where one person has really put a shift in doing everything they can to any. enhance their appearance and the other half of that equation is someone who has simply possibly had a shower. Yeah.

And then that's it. I completely agree. That's it's quite strange. It's just made me think actually you've got just harking back to those, are they called singlet shorts? What are they called those very tiny shorts? I don't know. I don't know why I've got the world singlet from.

Oh, that's a vest, isn't it? Yeah. Anyway, can you imagine states men, because they were largely men of the past going for a public run. Churchill. You know, it just wouldn't have happened. Palmerston. You know, in a top hat, really?

Would they have gone out first thing? What do you think their exercise was? That's a really good question. I suppose we didn't routinely travel everywhere by... But they weren't walking everywhere, though. They weren't turning over a sod of earth in their allotment. No, they would have had chauffeurs. Yeah.

of course they would have been looked after. So what, I don't think, well, I don't think Churchill did any exercise. The idea, it's just the idea of these people being seen out in public, exerting themselves and getting red in the face and sweating. Yeah. In very minute clothing. It is quite strange. Unthinkable.

And there's always, in any kind of drama that you have about the American president or a spy thriller or whatever, the leading characters are always going out for a big run with their security detail, are they? You're absolutely right. It's expected of the job. Not so much these days. No. That's true.

What exercise is he doing? I don't know. Actually, you've had a relatively quiet couple of days where he's... Oh, don't say that. I shouldn't. I shouldn't say that. Hannah is in deepest darkest Suffolk. I just listened to your conversation with Katrina O'Sullivan

and your discussion afterwards as well. I have had major body issues since I was weighed as an eight-year-old at school. Oh, this is awful, actually. And it became public knowledge that I was the heaviest kid in the class. As one of the tallest and somebody who's naturally broad, that should have been entirely expected. But from that point on, I was marked out as too big in my own mind. I have been underweight and morbidly obese and everything in between and never happy.

And this is the real sadness at the heart of all this. I've got a wonderful friend who has genuinely never had any insecurities about her, appearance, but also her general abilities and interests, etc. I once asked her about why she thinks this is, and her response stuck with me. My parents never criticised or praised us about anything at all. So we're back. So that worked for this correspondence friend, but I'm not sure it would have worked for everybody. Anyway, she goes on, I've come to believe the positive comments can be as harmful as they create an expectation or a sense that people are valued for their looks. Sorry, I'm slightly going back to a conversation we were having earlier,

but I do think this is so, so complicated. I wish it were more clear cut. I really do. And I'm sorry, Hannah, that you have felt or been made to feel so bad about yourself. And that's just, it's crap and it shouldn't have happened to you. And I hope things are marginally better for you now. because that is it's not a way to have lived and it doesn't

I do think back when we were at school you know the teasing that went on of the kid who was smelly because sometimes that happened certainly in the 70s the kid who wore hand knitted jumpers the one who was a bit bigger than the rest of it was awful wasn't it

I'm sure it's still there Jane no it probably is yeah it probably is which doesn't bear thinking about yeah it's really grim This one comes in and then maybe we'll move on from the appearances thing. We're developing quite a nice line in estate agent jargon. And we'll come to that in just a sec. This is in from Kirsty.

I was listening to your podcast the other day on the way back from the big food shop. Worst job of the week? No, don't agree. I love it. I like it. I absolutely love it, Kirsty. So we'll come and do yours. We could set up a very nice little routine, couldn't we?

A little side hustle. I'd quite like to do somebody else's trolley for them. Would you? Yes, I would actually. Because I tend to... I don't want to do anyone else's. I just don't enjoy mine. I go for the same things every time.

I'm a bit fearful of trying the new. So I think somebody else's routine would be great. Oh, I see. You're not going to buy them what you think they should have. No, I'm going to go and do Kirsty shopping for her. Oh, right. Okay. I wanted to write in and say thank you to the women

who've written in to say they love the way they look. I'm 35 and the grey hairs have started to... to creep in at a rapid rate. I don't die my hair. I've been a bit teary about it of late. But as I was listening to your podcast, I caught myself in my rearview mirror. There were my grey hairs.

And do you know what? They were shimmering in the sun like I had glitter in my hair. Maybe they aren't so bad after all. Maybe I can learn to love them. Maybe it is just glitter in my hair, which really is not so bad. I also wanted to say to Laura with the lovely baby,

Olaf, trust your gut. You will never regret passing up some more time with your son. I promise. Lots of love to you all. Well, Kirsty, I don't think you had glitter in your hair. I think you've got nature's glitter in your hair. Oh, what would have wonderful way of putting it. I admire you very much for, do you know, I would say just stick with it and go grey because I'm caught in that trap of not having let myself go grey when I started to go grey. And now it's just like such a massive thing. So I will. What are you doing? Covering up something. Yes. The ball patch at the back. No. I I'm I'm I'm it's just going to take me quite a while now to let the grey come through yeah I'll do it in my well you started ninth decade you started to do it

yeah then I stopped and then you stopped so why did you stop because I didn't like it okay yeah but you weren't going very grey no um so you didn't have the you know the badger white line which is what I'd have now I just admire you Kirsty just stick with it Yeah, I think it just becomes such a big thing. And then every four weeks you're having to go and have it touched up and it is lots of chemicals and all that kind of stuff. As much as anything, though, I like the atmosphere in the hairdressers.

Yes, I know you do. Yeah, I don't. Okay. I like catching up with people. I like overhearing things. I don't mind overhearing things. I just don't. We actually got a lovely hairdresser at the moment who is very, very happy.

we do a quick catch-up at the beginning and then we just leave it. Sometimes we'll give each other a look in the mirror if we're both listening to... The same conversation somewhere else. Yeah. But I find I just want to leave. I find it very difficult to sit still for all of that time.

Yeah. I finally got my dad, who's 92 and a half, to agree to have a fantastic hairdresser who used to come to do my mom's hair. She now comes to do dad. Her name's Carol. I don't think she listens or watches. But Carol, thank you.

My dad's still got quite a good head of hair. So where was, so he was going out to a barber's before? Oh, he was going to some barbers who, I mean, their approach was, how can I put it? There was a brutalist barbers. I think he paid a maximum of six pounds. And then my dad can be a little bit careful at times. He might give an 80 pence tip, you know. It's not, it's not, no.

Maybe that's why he was being given a brutal. hair cut. I did suggest that. Yeah. So thankfully now he has... Tip more if you want some layers. He has seen the error of his ways. And now for the first time in his life, he's actually getting a proper haircut. He looks so much better. It's probably a little late in the day. But hey, well done. God. I'll bring in this one from David as we change topic. Yes. Dear Jane and Fee, your discussion last week on the podcast about feedback received from potential house buyers struck a cord with me, having just sold my house. The estate agent I signed up to was overall very good and I would

happily recommend them, except for the app that they asked me to download so I could see the progress of any offer and read the feedback from potential buyers after they'd viewed the property. It was invariably brutal. I'm not sure they realized that along with the feedback, I got their name and buying position. I did not know this. No, I didn't know that you could you could do that. So you can track them down. The worst offenders seem to be the Saturday afternoon viewers who are not actually in a position to buy a house. Feedback included for my three-bed semi.

The house is bottom-heavy with only three workable bedrooms. We like the downstairs, but the upstairs was all wrong. Such a shame. Such a shame. This is somebody's home. Semi-detached house. The house is bottom-heavy. We're back to appearances.

Superbub. wouldn't it have been nice to have the wood fires blazing as we walked around the property? The stairs were too steep. Oh, nothing puts you. Although I suppose if you are thinking about mobility issues, perhaps steep stairs would be the point at which you realise you can't go there. David, I'm with you. I think that's incredibly rude. Kitchen needed an update.

Well, whose kitchen doesn't, yeah. Anyway, 20 plus viewers later, I sold my lovely house and in the process have acquired the additional skill of being able to clean a kitchen and a bathroom to make it viewer ready in 10 minutes straight, all best wishes. Well, I'm glad it's all gone through, David. Well done you. And yeah, I think there is quite a hobbyist thing about going to look round houses. Can you, because I don't know this world because I'm so resistant to change that, obviously, I've nowhere close to even pondering selling my house. But can you just look round houses if you're no intention of selling a house? Yep. So if you're looking for a hobby. Yes. No, very much. So, and I think you have to offer no proof at all that you're...

No proof at all. So you fill in a little, it's usually a drop-down menu thing these days and it says, you know, what stage are you at? And it'll say, house not on the market, not a homeowner yet at all, house under offer or chain-free. So you can tick any box you like, nobody's going to check. And there is always a box for kind of what-evs, just the person who's drifting around having a look.

And I think it probably becomes quite addictive as well, looking at houses. And I'm sure that there are people who just do like going to look at houses. And a judgy, judgy. Yeah. And I'm sure somewhere, and I don't want to ring too many alarm bells, you know, there's definitely been a couple of cases where people have been able to trace subsequent theft back to people looking around houses. Right.

Okay. Which of course it stands to reason that nefarious characters might do that. Nefarious. Yes. Very welcome use of that lovely word. Thank you, Jane. I should say that Fee is still slightly in recovery because you were at a place earlier in your working day. I think you called it, what was it, testosterone alley?

Yes. What happened to you? Just to share with the group. Well, testosterone corridor is outside the makeup room. Right. Here at the time. Here at the Times, and it's adjacent to the kind of anti-room that all of talk sport people are in before they go off and do their Monday podcast, all about the goals at the weekend. Yeah.

And it just is at a higher volume. I mean, just that room is turned up to 11 in a spinal tap kind of way. And there's just a lot of pulsating pre-podcast umph, whereas you and I turn to. just be sipping coffee and eating some nuts. We don't chat very much before we go in. No. And we're definitely yet to fist bump. Oh, but we should do that.

I'm going to introduce that beginning the week after next as next Monday is another bank holiday in the United Kingdom. So visualize yourselves. Yeah, yes. Now, this is probably going to, well, I don't know. I think it's a very real email from Pippa. Listening to the conversation with Kirstie and Phil, and hearing Kirstie bring up the point of second homeowners

paying too much tax. Well, I'm afraid my immediate feeling was, I don't have much sympathy for that, given many people, including me, can't afford a first home where we live. And this is a situation for people of Pippus Age. She says, I've just turned 31. This is very common in the UK, isn't it?

I'm sure elsewhere in the world as well. She says, I've got a good job, and I would love just a small, one-bed flat around where I live, which is London Zone 2. But this is very much out of my reach, sadly. I'm single so I don't get the benefit of a second income with a partner, which, although logical, feels somewhat penalising. I see lots of ads for so-called affordable shared ownership properties,

but these really seem like the numbers don't add up as you pay rent as well as a mortgage at a high price. Can any other listeners explain where the affordability is meant to come in on this? I'm just so confused by it all. Pippa, I hope somebody can explain that to you, but it's no consolation at all to you to know that you probably speak for so many of your generation and people who say,

young people don't care, they're not patriotic, very hard to be patriotic in a country that doesn't, at this moment, offer you the chance to own a home in it unless you have access to inherited wealth. And not everybody has got an obliging grandma. No, God no. It just doesn't work out for it.

So many people don't. Not at all. And also in that generation, there's so much fear about whether or not you've got enough money to get you through your retirement, possibly pay for your own care, maybe sell up your home in order to pay for your own care. It's difficult at both ends.

But, you know, as we always say, when we're talking politics ahead of an election, the whole dial just shifts towards the people who are going to come out and vote. And that has been the older Democratic. I am fascinated to see what happens in the next election when the age at which you can vote is lowered. And surely, Jane, the next election has to be fought around the needs of the younger generation. Well, the problem with the oldest generation.

But for that to happen, you've got to all get out and vote. Well, and that's the problem. Yeah. That too many of them don't. So I don't know what the cephologists have deduced from the local elections, but the turnout was higher. And in some contested seats as well recently, there's been a magnificent turnout by comparison to what we usually manage.

And if those are enough young people, that's what will make affordability a far, far bigger political thing. But I completely agree, Jane. And I think if you and I were honest and we cast our minds back to where we were in our late 20s, I mean, it's always different. got to do this. But our entire outlook was probably shaped by the fact that property didn't have

to be such a huge part of our daily lives, our weekly paycheck, our expectations, our hopes, whatever. It just was so, so different to us. And by that, I mean, the amount of energy we had for our jobs, the amount of energy we had for relationships, when we thought we were going to be able to have kids, all of that changes if you're uncertain as to where you can live. And I think it's just appalling that it's not thought about more. Well, I think for PIPA at 31, living in Zone 2 in London, which for those of you, why would you be intimate with the zones in London, that is very, very expensive. Yes, it's Central London. Yeah, pretty much Central London. And that you're not going to, well, rent would be really high.

The idea that if you buy a one, this is just a ballpark figure to give people an idea. I think if you're looking for a studio flat, so one room, effectively, with a loo, a shower, you wouldn't be able to get one in that part of London for less than what, 400,000 pounds? Oh, I'd say maybe even a little bit more. More, yeah.

Well, I mean, it's just crazy. So, I mean, with the deposit, you'd need 40 grand for the deposit. it? I mean, again, who's got that? Unless you're incredibly fortunate. Or you've been able to save it, but to be able to save it on the sort of salaries you're, I mean, I just don't think that's possible either. Nope. Unless you are able to live at home with parents who are benign enough not to charge you any rent, which again isn't a reality for lots of people. So it's really important and please, please young people do vote because it's the only way the politicians will pay any attention to you.

Very much so. Very, very much so. And also it's just such a great feeling when you do. Yeah. Don't you think? No, good vibes. Yeah, very good vibes. I love it. Absolutely love it. When I was walking back from the polling station at the recent May local elections, and I do this every time I vote actually. I think about my grandmother, who was 97 when she died about 20 years ago. So she would have been in her young adult life pretty close.

to the turn of the last century. Keep up at the back, show your workings in the margin. So she probably wouldn't have been able to vote in the first couple of elections that were... She lived through. Yeah, that were out there and happening. Just at a time in her life where she may really have wanted to say something.

So she had to leave school when she was 14. She put herself through night classes for bookkeeping. The long arm of caring called her back because she was the daughter. Her mother became ill and her dad wanted her. to look after her. There were many, many things that she, her life was pushed up against.

And I always think when I vote, wow, in two generations, I've become a woman who's had a say, who's had a say in what I do and my circumstances. And of course, voting wouldn't have changed those individual circumstances for her. But I just think of her as a young woman and how much umph she showed in her own life.

to do all of those things, to have been told by society that she could play no part in the workings of it is just phenomenal, isn't it? Well, I mean, I guess it drags us back a bit to the fact that there's no current woman running to be the leader of the Labour Party.

I mean, officially no one's running, except everybody is. But we do need a woman to at least be a part of that conversation. It would be really horrendous if all of the candidates, including Kirstarmer if he also goes on the ballot, are white blokes. What does it say? It's frustrating though, isn't it?

Because so much of the front benches, female. Oh, yeah, but... I've used female there. It's got it. You've gone down. Have you seen the lovely email from Claire Lynch? Have you seen it? Yes.

So Claire came in to talk about her really lovely novel, A Family Matter. We couldn't recommend it highly enough. It's really beautiful. And also it just tells you something about the world. Dear Finn, Jane, much to the dismay of the twas. Queens in my house. Your podcast is my preferred soundtrack while I'm cooking the family dinner. So shout

out to the tweens. Yeah, they love it really. Yeah, you're learning a lot. Can I say I'm very flattered, Claire, that you choose to spend special time. You can imagine my utter delight then, where my publisher said, I'd be coming into the studio to chat about my novel. Naturally, I was beside myself prepping rude cactus jokes and dousing myself in bergammonic cleaning fluid. But in the weeks leading up life did its thing. My dear old dad was finally overcome by the cancer he'd been battling for years. It was as good an end as he could hope for he died at home in his bed, my mum holding his hand. It was, as listeners will know, almost impossible to get on with normal life and work in the days afterwards. And to keep some grip on normality, I just kept a few

milestones in my diary that would keep me moving forwards, including coming into the studio to meet you both. I tried to be as normal as possible in the interview, but when Fee asked me what I was writing next, I blustered something about my next novel, knowing that the truth was a eulogy. Those few pages were the hardest thing I've ever had to write, and certainly the hardest thing I've ever had to read. After the service, when I got back into the funeral car, I opened my handbag, and found the little packet of tissues I'd nabbed at the Times Radio Studio as a souvenir, printed with the apt slogan, big issues, small tissues. It's a winner, that one, isn't it?

A welcome dose of levity at just the right moment. Thank you. Well, Clow, it was a real pleasure to see you again. And I bet your eulogy was really beautiful. I'm sure it was. Because you are a person who can write with levity about the most serious things in life. So I hope that the funeral was,

was a good day. They can be, can't they feel? They can be good days as one of sad days. And also I'm glad that your dad got to see you publish a family matter. He must have been immensely proud. So, but write another novel, love. Crack on, because you're very good. We'd like to talk about the next one.

The world does need to hear more from Claire Lynch, definitely. And it's lovely just to say that that is something that the Times does offer tissues. I mean... And they are tiny. They're very small and they're very tightly bound. Yeah. But if you do come into the building,

you are allowed to take away some times radio tissues. Now, shall we do John's lovely, lovely message to his wife? Oh, yes, now. Now, we might have to subpart of this, John, because we're doing another week here.

Just watch while I... Look at this. I'll tell you what, that's quite a good stretch, that one. We should do that more often. So John wrote us a couple of weeks ago, and we have been keeping this back, and Eve has noted it in our diary. So we've actually ended up doing it on the right day, as opposed to me.

You tried to do it on the wrong day about 10 days ago. Dear Jane and Fee, I hope you will forgive this shamelessly self-serving outreach from an extremely grateful husband. My name is John, my wife Esther, and our three kids relocated to Ottawa in Canada from Leeds during COVID-19 in 2020. She turned 40 during lockdown. I had long COVID and miserably failed to celebrate her birthday milestone. Settling in Ottawa during the pandemic was tough. God, I bet it was. But during that time, Offair with Jane and Fee was a lifesaver.

You've got no idea what a treasured presence you've become in our home. Your voices, you say lovely things about us enough. Now that Esther is turning. I could have done with more, but carry on. It's right. I'll read those slowly to myself later. Don't you worry. Now that Esther is turning 45.

I wondered whether you might possibly wish her a happy 45th birthday on the 18th of May. I'm attaching a birthday message I've written for Esther. If you would consider giving us such an incredible gift, you may use my words, however you wish as background inspiration, or if you're feeling especially generous to read some or all of it to her in the episode, she will be absolutely over the moon. Thank you very much for your consideration. And please let me know if there's anything I can do to fulfill this wish.

Well, you've just written a very lovely and polite email, and that is enough, John. And also, we are all for celebrating the decent man in a decent woman's life. So we are very happy to read a little bit of it. Right. This is lovely. You're a lucky woman, Esther. I know we shouldn't say that, should you? I was such a lucky man to have met you that afternoon in 2011.

The meeting went well, attendees excited. The project had gained a new team. team member with innumerable skills, gender expertise, international intelligence, qualitative analytics, and tons of interpersonal strengths. But I knew even at that first sight that I'd gain more, much more. Each time our eyes met, I couldn't turn my gaze away. As the meeting concluded, I found myself handing you my copy of the project document, a coveted internal handbook. Nothing says true love. Like a copy of a copy of of an internal handbook.

These are sexy time. Several years later, the magic of your eyes has only grown stronger. I want to sit, talk and look into your eyes, like a Brussels dinner lasting till midnight. Thank you for being a great companion. Treasurable adventures, passionate debates, problem solving, and turning ideas into action. I love how we've grown together over the last 15 years.

When I'm with you, the past, present and few, are happening at the same time. You're my ray of sunshine, calmness, joy and hope for an ever brighter future for us and this young crew who are following in your exemplary footsteps. You steadied me in incredible ways and given me memories I treasure deeply. John, that is lovely. Happy birthday, Esther, 45. That's a great, that's a good age. That's a great age. Everything is still possible for you both. I'm very jealous. Happy birthday. Yeah, I think that line about your, my past, present and future are all with us when we're together.

I think that's just lovely. That is lovely. And I hope that there's some humour in the Brussels dinner analogy. I suspect they should be. If it lasted till midnight, I'd be very worried about my digestion. Let's hope they didn't have Brussels paté or anything heavy. But no, seriously, happy birthday. Very happy birthday.

That's probably it. Now that has to be it now. Yes, I think it does. She tried to make an early dart 10 minutes ago because her tummy's rumbling, but no, we carried on. We've got some good guests this week, including psychotherapist-turned novelist, Philippa Perry. I've almost finished her book, Shrink Solves Murder. What do you think that's about? I would imagine that's about a person who was once very tall, who became very short.

Yes. Solving the killing of another human being. Correct. So, and what else have we got this week? I don't know. You don't know. Okay. Thanks indeed for listening and being a part and indeed watching, if indeed you have.

If you haven't, why not give it a whirl? It'll at least make you laugh and solve some of your dilemmas about what we look like and which ones which. Goodbye. Bye now. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.