Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Nothing like the pong of an economy scented candle (with Baroness Lane-Fox)

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

If you have been impacted by any of the dross discussed on Off Air, just contact an action line... This episode's dross includes turtle soup, the Adelphi, quilting, and harmony on the heath. Plus, campaigner, investor, and former Twitter board member Baroness Lane-Fox talks tech. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you have been in any way impacted by some of the dross we discuss on Off Air, I don't know what to suggest really. What would you say? Just contact an action line. Find an action line and contact it. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now wherever you are to unclench your jaw. Relax your shoulders. Take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do with more. For a limited time, visit betterhelp.com slash random pod for one free week of online therapy. No

pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. So lots of people have taken to sending me examples of their pets being clever, Jane. I think it is very cruel because it's not always the smart arses in life who you like. So I completely get that some cats can do algebra and all kinds of capaderas or whatever can walk in water. But Nancy is just a little bit stupid but glorious because of it.

And I just, I feel a bit hurt every time somebody shares an Instagram reel of a clever dog. What are these dogs doing? Well, I mean, dogs can be unbelievably clever, can't they? So yeah, I mean the sheep dogs and guide dogs. Fantastic. But also there's a story doing the rounds today which is rather wonderful, which is about the hawk in Hertfordshire who keeps on attacking only men between the ages of 40 and 60. It's a secret agent, isn't it? The theory is that they're incredibly clever aren't they, corvids? You've completely lost me now. So they're birds of prey? Yes. So apparently they've got some kind of generational memory. So even if one of the hawks'

relatives had had a bad incident with a man between the ages of 40 and 60. Somehow it would be carried down through the Covid DNA and they would know that they were the enemy. That's clever, isn't it? Good grief, I did not know that. But you and I would be fine, wouldn't we? Now is the time for us to take our day trip to Hertfordshire. Let's go. Because as short women, we're completely safe.

We did have a very sweet email from somebody else who also has to let her legs swing at the hairdressers. Yes. Because you did say that yesterday. I'm quite fond of you. I thought, oh poor little... because I'm a tiny bit bigger than you. I mean really not much. Well no, you're not very much bigger. No, not at all. I think you've got a longer leg and a shorter trunk. Oh yeah, my mum always told me, it's not your legs that are short, it's your body. I said that was going to help. But anyway, thanks to that person, I would look for your supportive email. Oh, damn, I can't find it. We'll get to it. But also, so many people are really just taking the world into their own hands. They are leaving

the hairdresser with foils, with roots maneuvers on their heads. They're just doing it their own way. And I'm going to definitely, definitely try it next time. Are you? Yes. Well, I'm going for my whatever it is, all over wash on Friday. But you've stopped dying, haven't you? Well, it's not dying, but it's something like dying. So something's put onto my hair,

but it's not quite as obviously dyed as it used to be if you see what I mean. Is it a rinse? It must be some kind of rinse. I must actually inquire as to what's happening. Yes, I think you should. But as I've said I've been going to the same hairdresser for many many years now and I just like going and I'm not gonna stop going because there's always someone in there I vaguely know, I love the staff and I'm just not going to change so I'd always keep going. But we did have this, there was a suggestion yesterday that Taunton in Somerset, which

is a bit vanilla and a bit boring and Gin who lives in Watschett says I grew up in Taunton and I saw the name of Tuesday's episode and I just had to listen immediately. I was so intrigued about the title, Taunton Vanilla. I burst out laughing as soon as I heard Melanie's email. I would agree. Taunton is indeed vanilla. I moved to Watchit, a smaller town on the West Somerset coast 31 years ago. So she just thought I'm going gonna get the hell out of Taunton. I'm going. I'm going to watch it. Is watch it any better?

Well, I remember there being an influx of different people in the High Street around the Glastonbury weekend, but I don't know if that's still the case. Otherwise, Taunton is definitely boring. I can picture the stairs if somebody went up the high street in foils. Don't let it bother you though. I cheat and I dye my own hair, though nothing technical like foils. Occasionally I go round the house doing things, but I have been known to drip dry, dip dye, that's not good at all. Plus I can't see without my glasses. So I'm usually sat on the top of our stairs with my book close to my face. A tip for those who DIY dye, try to avoid a white bathroom suite, it's not the brightest idea. I like red, purple or

blue dye, so I'm often going around with various cleaning products afterwards to try and get the splodges of colour off. Thanks for your podcast says Gin, who's moved to the much more maverick location also though in West Somerset of watch it. Right, I really do feel... I do hope I'm pronouncing that right by the way. I feel so bad for Taunton though. I'd like somebody to back up Taunton's appeal. Our ex-colleague, Matt Chorley, was from Taunton, wasn't he?

Oh yes. I mean he's still alive so he still is from Taunton. Yeah, he's still from the Somerset area. No, he's a very... Career wise, he's dead. Very fine market town. My university roommate was from a village very close to Taunton. I loved it when I went to visit.

So yeah. I had a very nice time down there at Somerset Sound. They had an amazing WI and I would only have been 22, 23. Why are you laughing? He's laughing. No, I'm a big fan of the WI and I would only have been 22, 23. Why, Eve's laughing. No, I'm a big fan of the WI. Well, it was such a comforting place to go. So they had a WI stall at their headquarters in Taunton that opened really early in the morning every Tuesday or whenever it was. And so I used to pop in and buy, you know, some really nice dried flowers, some homemade scones, a little bottle of cordial or something. And it was just really nice because I was quite a

long way away from home. I was quite young, I was just living in a B&B, you know, and I remember thinking, oh, this is nice. It's just full of people who are very pleased to see everybody, nice to be around. It was a lovely insight. Yeah. But yeah, I'm trying to think what the top story was that we did in Taunton, you know, that really pushed back the boundaries of vanilla. And I'm just gonna come back to you on that. Okay, right. Could actually be a very pleasant room spray, Taunton vanilla. Yeah, you're right. I've just gone into room sprays. Well, is that because...

It's Picardly cause Adora, yes it is, yeah. No, I was going to say, because you revealed before Christmas, and I was devastated to hear this actually, that you felt that your love affair with the votive candle was over. It's interesting you say that. I haven't actually lit a candle for a while, what's going on? I don't know. Would that be connected to your birthday present to me? No, I'll pay for that.

Which was a photo candle. So next year, it'll be an air freshener. No, but just can I say, that wasn't cheap. No, and it's beautiful. So my sitting room, lounge, TV room, press, whatever you want to call it, has been wonderfully centred with amber ever since February the 27th. So that's a wonderful thing. There's nothing quite like the pong of I'm going to say an economy centred candle. And look, I really did go through a phase and there's some really good ones you can get in Robert Dyer's that take away pet spells that are just brilliant. Really, really good they work.

Had you gone down the Yankee Candle road? The girls went down the Yankee Candle in their teens and flippin' heck. I think they always smell like boiled sweets, don't they? It doesn't matter what scent it says on the outside, it smells like boiled sweets. It just smells of Yankee Candle to me. And do you remember those really chunky Christmas wands? Oh God, I think I can still whiff them. So what are you using now? Little sticks.

Those funny sticks. I do. I rather like... I've discovered the stick. They're not called sticks, are they? No, what are they called? Where you stick the diffuser. Yes, that's it. The diffuser. That's it, darling. No, wonderful.

Yes, I've got a diffuser over the litter tray at the moment. Okay, and that could be taunt and vanilla. You never see that in Living Magazine, do you? The diffuser positioned very carefully, very close to the litter tray. I still don't understand how you've not managed to get Dora to take her business outside. She doesn't like the cold. Who wants a chill wind on their bottom? Well, I think some people love it, Jane. Some people do. Explains the problems on Hampstead Heath at the moment. Well, you need to outline the details of that to our international audience. Hampstead Heath has long been a place where the gay fraternity have been able to...

Gay male. Yep, and hook up. Is it just male? Yes. Well, good point. And let's open it up. Well, I think the ladies' baths are well known, the ponds are well known as a place that used to definitely provide sanctuary for... Yeah, but that's for bathing....for gay ladies. Oh, I see. Yeah. I think Hampstead Heath has been a welcoming place for the homosexual community in London for a very long time. Right. And cruising has been a Hampstead Heath pastime but recently somebody has been putting up posters all over certain parts of the Heath saying we'd like our Heath back for dog walkers for family picics, we don't want you to be cruising here anymore,

why don't you book a room or just get an app and download it. And the signs have been almost universally torn up because actually there's a harmony on the Heath where people have accepted that for a very long time homosexual men had nowhere else to go, actually, that's the important part of the story, when it was still illegal to be hooking up in public. That's why Hampstead Heath became such a place of meeting up. So I think there's something rather nice about

that story, but I don't live on Hampstead Heath, so I don't know... And you're not a regular picnicker? No, so I don't know whether or not it's just become really kind of invasive. Yeah. But it tells quite a story, I think. It does. It's absolutely fascinating. Harmony on the Heath would also be not a bad name for a diffuser.

You're right. What would that smell of? Well, yeah, and this is the issue. So I think this is very much I don't know where I stand kind of an issue. Because listen, I'm all for the gay rights. Good for them. But on the other other hand I suppose if I were taking a member of the toddling community out on the Heath but then again presumably the cruising activity is confined to the night the evening and the night isn't it surely?

Well I don't know. No, not really. We really are. Out of our comfort zone. And it's not one of those subjects where I think, I'll have a punt on this. Just don't want to offend anybody, Jane. Take a chance, I don't know. I have been to Hampstead Heath quite a few times and do I like it? Do you like it? I love Hampstead Heath. It always seems so bloody busy.

So you tried to have this conversation with Adam Shaw on Monday in the studio and he was going, provided the same reaction that I'm going to provide. Well no, well you just go to the wrong place. I mean the Heath is massive. So if you go to the parts of the Heath that are near the tube stations there or near the big car parks or near some of the big pubs, then yeah you do have to queue to get onto a footpath and it just feels ridiculous. But the Heath itself is really vast. You can get lost on the Heath pretty easily. Can you? Yes, I think it's a wonderful place. I've felt a proper, proper connection with nature sometimes on the Heath because there are parts of it where you really don't feel the city around you.

So... You can see it though, can't you? Yeah, but I'm a huge fan of it. Well, I went to Richmond Park at the weekend because the weather was beautiful We can see it though, can't you? Yeah, but I'm a huge fan of it. Well I went to Richmond Park at the weekend because the weather was beautiful and I was taking, did I mention this yesterday, I was taking some friends from out of town and you know the thing that people from out of town often reference when they come to London is how busy it is, how bad the traffic is.

Well I don't really drive much apart from very locally which is I'm turning into one of those older people who only drives locally and That means you know when you get to the stage where you have to think about giving up driving I'll be able to say I only drive locally. So if I'm gonna have an accident it'll involve somebody else local So leave me to it. It'll just involve someone I know exactly which is not It's not a reason to carry on driving Exactly what she does is not a reason to carry on driving. But I'm afraid what happened on Saturday with my friends from out of London was that their worst fears about London's traffic were confirmed because the traffic was terrible. Everyone was going for a walk in Richmond Park apart from the people who'd gone buggering

off to Hampstead. Why didn't you take the train? Well because, yeah, well that's the other thing. I think the last time I tried to take the train at the weekend, there were engineering works and that we had to get a taxi. So anyway, look, quite a dull anecdote, even by my standards. But it did dawn on me actually that Richmond seems very much more, there aren't so many hidden wooded areas.

So I'm not surprised that cruising doesn't seem to go on there in the same way as it does in Hampstead or maybe I'm wrong because I guess we've already said neither of us know. I think I'm on slightly firmer ground discussing the Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool. I don't know actually. Can I just say it's Pippa Cotton who has the same problem of sitting in a chair, legs down, 5 foot 2. Thank you Pippa. Thank you very much. We are sisters for life. Yeah, that's lovely. Right, the Adelphi Hotel now, there's some news isn't there? Well, there is well sort of. I've even looked it up. Richard is in Brussels, regular correspondent. Oh my goodness, your mention of the Adelphi in Liverpool did make me laugh. I was on the way back from

the hairdressers where he'd spent three hours, had quite a bit to drink and the new barber was born in 2005. What goes on in Brussels? I don't know. God. I stayed in the Adelphi back in 1997 on a government rate. It was appallingly awful and somebody had reprogrammed the TV so the channel name spelt show us your tits. I love that. I did it last time. It's just incredible. Anyway, thank you for reading out my other email about the wonders of the Belgian healthcare system. My doctor suggested I should see a cardiologist. I went on the app, found one with good reviews and got an appointment for the next week.

230 euros and I got 85% of that back on the insurance. Wow. That's good, isn't it? It is very good. Well done, Richard. Still don't understand why you've had a lot to drink and spent three hours at the bar, but unless you have a very full head of hair. What's a government rate? I don't really know. I think you need to write back Russells. Russells. Sorry, it's Richard in Brussels.

Not Russell in Br. You've got a you've got a new nickname, Russell's embrace. Anyway, I did look up the Adelphi Hotel fee. Yes. And there was a hotel called the Adelphi that was knocked down and then a new version which is still standing opened in 1876. It was very generally regarded as luxurious, had over 300 rooms, and the new building was the most eye-catching in Liverpool city centre. During this period, the Adelphi was world-renowned, not only for its service, but for its unique turtle soup. I know. Prepared from the basement of the hotel, where there were a set of heated tanks to keep live turtles for the soup.

Oh, well it deserves to have gone downhill. One of the most notable visitors to the hotel during the 1800s was Charles Dickens, who elicited the Adelphi as one of his favourites. He went there three times between 1826 and his death in 1870. There's no suggestion the hotel wasn't anyway responsible for his demise. But yes, that's interesting, isn't it? Mock Turtle Soup is something I did see actually when I went on a tour. There was a little, I went on a tour of the Liver building a couple of, maybe last year, last April it was. Brilliant, really interesting, great view.

And there was some information there about Mock Turtle Soup, which was served on all the grand cruise liners that left Liverpool. That obviously doesn't include turtles. But it's interesting that the original did. Yuck. Yeah, do you know, I'm just not warming to coming to your part of the world. I will treat you, Fee. You're in your late life love interest. I will treat you to a night in the Adelphi.

How about that? Don't you worry little lady, I'll take care of everything. I just want to hear what you make of it. Okay, well, do you know, I mean, the part of that story I have warmed to is the person who laboriously, presumably on some kind of an early teletext, managed to get the TV to say show us your tits. I mean mean that's probably a whole evening's work. It will have taken quite a lot of effort you're right. Very dexterous as well that will have been something I could never have done. No, no don't try it, don't try it.

What was the word we used to write on our calculator? Boobs. 8 00 85. Pathetic. And yet everyone did it. Oh those were the days. Kids, you have no idea how much fun we used to have back in the 70s and 80s. Just incredible. Oh gosh. Ears and toxic town. This one comes in from Sandy. Hope you're both enjoying a bit of sunshine today. Do you know what? We were almost this morning back to a bit of sun. It's gone now. A great interview with Jodie yesterday just to say her accent was Glasgow Corby rather than just pure Glasgow. Corby was known as Little Scotland due to the amount of Scots who moved down for work, really enjoyed the show, particularly the woman and Robert Carlyle's performances,

un-broadcastable line to the guy in the council, you've always been a wanker, summed up the attitude of the whole team working in Corby. And Sandy goes on to say, I've had my ears syringed many times when we first moved to France, sorry can't help your correspondent who's having problems with their radio signal, they won't hear this Sandy. I went to the doctor to ask about ear syringing and without any hesitation he got me to lie down there and placed a tube, like the ones you'd find on a Bunsen burner, into my ear and squirted water into it. I felt like I'd been on a roller coaster, that was 15 years ago but a similar system is still used and I'm always surprised how much wax comes out." And Sandy ends the email by saying, glad to hear that

Eve is back safely. And she is, and she's looking, still looking tanned and lovely. Now the bunsen burner tube thing going into your ear that's the one that we need to avoid isn't it? Because that's one that a previous correspondent has said you can perforate your eardrum by doing it so if you go to a place where that is still being used then you need to turn around and leave immediately and say that Jane and Fee say it's no longer safe. And I feel that that is a little bit of a nod towards our old public service broadcasting pasts. We're still looking out for you kids.

We're still here with all the patronising advice. Very much looking out for you and at any moment we can just give you an Action Line number. If you have been in any way impacted by some of the dross we discuss on Off Air, I don't know what to suggest really. What would you say? Just contact an Action Line. Find an Action Line and contact it. Welcome to Deborah who says she's almost 60, a long time listener from Solihull, now that's posh. They have their own John Lewis there. Do they? Yes, well they, yeah, I think they do, they certainly did. I was interested

in your conversation about parties. Jane mentioned the classic 1970s cheese and pineapple hors d'oeuvre. Well, our book club celebrated a member's 50th birthday last week on a Thursday evening. Quite sure of the relevance of the day of the week but we like all details. We had a 70s theme, she was born in 75 so she didn't herself have any real recollection of the 70s except for the various food concoctions. Instant Whip, Angel Delight, Blumange and on the savoury front Cheese and Pineapple on Cocktail Sticks. Please find attached an image of our cheese and pineapple hedgehog which we've called Helen. She took about 10 minutes to construct a lot less time

than the modern faffing about wrapping a piece of pros... I never know how to say that. Pros... That ham, it's ham isn't it? Prosecuto? Prosciutto. What? Prosciutto. What? Prosciutto. I don't know. To attach a rosemary stick to... Oh, never. I can't read that. I'm sorry, because it's too many fancy foreign words. The hedgehog was well consumed and I really should have taken an after photo as she looked like she'd enjoyed the party as much as us.

And there is the picture of the hedgehog in her all her glory before she was attacked. Yeah it's lovely. It's a lovely idea. I really do think that's an underrated and delicious combination. The pineapple chunk and the bright orange cheese. I think we should bring it back and celebrate it. Thank you very much for that Debbie and Deborah rather and may you continue with your sophisticated life in the Solihull area. Can I just say to Maria and a couple of other people who have continued to inquire about Peter Thornton, KC's book The Later Years, The Simple Guide to Organising the Rest of Your Life, I don't know what's going on on some of the websites because some people seem to have had

problems ordering this and the website that Maria's gone to has said that it's not going to be released until February 2026 but it's up there at the moment it's £13.99 it does seem to be available so I think well maybe there was a bit of a glitch in the system but but it's definitely out there. It's called the later years, Maria. You may want to go back and search for it and just see whether it's chivvied itself up today. Yeah, even I did do a little bit of work on this earlier and it's available in the well-known

High Street Bookstore that begins with W. Yeah. So you can get it there or you can certainly order it from them. But I agree, I also looked on some well-known sites and it was saying all sorts of stuff like available next spring. Yep, so maybe there was only one print run and it's now become so popular there's another print run but you can get it now. Yeah, or maybe you could certainly order it and be prepared to wait for a while because I can understand why it's taken off because it's those questions that

you don't really want to, well you don't know who to ask and all the answers are there and it's not look it's not a barrel of laughs but it is fantastically helpful. And it's really detailed, so I think it's better than your, because there are lots of self-help guides out there to death administration and stuff like that, but it's really good about the difference between you know some powers of attorney and what you need to put in your will and what you can't put in your will and certainly all the medical stuff as well. It's really valuable actually, we would heartily recommend it. Can I also just say a very big thank you to Helen Clark from Brizell. Heads up for the Festival of Quilts, tickets go on sale next week, there'll be no problem getting tickets but if you fancy a workshop,

they get booked very quickly. A workshop will be too advanced for me actually Helen. Well maybe Nancy could do it. But I am. No she couldn't, we'll establish that. She just has some problems in choosing the fabrics Jane, the rest of it she's really good to go. Her colour scheme is very difficult. So I'm gonna go to that this year, I'm intrigued by quilts. I want to see what people are up to. Yeah, lovely. This is from Anonymous and it's one of those, we just want to let you know that we've read it, we're thinking of you, things will get better. It sounds all cliched and horrible and I don't mean to but I heard today on your show about a listener in her thirties blindsided by her partner after 11 years and I really wish her well and I'm sure

she'll find another partner if she wishes in the future. I'm in my 60s and my husband blindsided me after 30 years when we were about to renew our vows. That really does seem pretty awful I'm really sorry my grown daughters are devastated as am I and even after a year I'm really still struggling. I do enjoy the company of men but I'm convinced I won't meet anyone at my age when I also know men seem to prefer younger women. My friends are wonderful, they've been great and they continue to be, but my confidence has been shattered and I really did hope this

would be a lovely time in my life. Oh god. I mean I honestly really feel for you that's rubbish and you are entitled to feel, to put it mildly, let down and upset and it's going to take a bit longer than a year I suspect to get over this. Especially as you know you've been with someone for so long and the whole business of vow renewal was looming and you I guess you know at that stage you are going to think we're set fair here, aren't you? I think there's a cruelty, isn't there? Real cruelty.

In heading towards, you know, a reunification with joy ceremony that obviously made him think, no, I don't want to be in this at all, but you were thinking this is an affirmation of everything that we've got together. It's so cruel. And especially I think things that involve lots of other people as well. So you can't keep it private. That's hard work too. Do you know what? If somebody were to invent a dating app where nice men, of which there are many many out there who didn't want younger women could sign up to I think it would be a huge success and are you certain that doesn't exist it I know it

exists Jane I'd say no no no are you the app you've just decided oh I see no I don't know and I'll and I'll look into it I'll make that my little homework for tonight there are quite a few of us who could sign up. Yeah, so I think it would just be so reassuring to women. Because our correspondent, I don't want to agree with her but I think she's got a point. Isn't it true that men of her age, presumably around the same age as her husband, are going to be on the lookout for a younger partner? I think some men are going to be on the lookout for a younger partner. I think society allows them to believe that it's possible. Well, and it is. And yes, and I think all kinds of different parts of our

society encourage men to be excited by the prospect of younger women. But I know for sure that one of the signs of a decent man is a man who doesn't want to be with younger women. I just think there aren't very many things that I've come to a position of certainty on in my later life, but that is one of them. It doesn't make you a perfect man, but there's something just so uncomfortable about older men choosing younger women because that's just, I'm sorry, it is about flesh. That is what it's about and power and hierarchy and Dolly Alderton said

didn't she that if she could change one thing in the world she would make it a law that men had to date women their own age. I love that woman for many things. Yes, no absolutely, 100, 100, 100 billion percent, but, but, but, but women play a part in this. So, you know, we can't, we're not out of the equation. We're half of it. We're not, but I think when you get further down the line, you come to realize what all of that is about. And, you know, I've had boyfriends and one husband who was considerably older than me. I mean, you know, almost a decade. And, yes, he was.

And I wouldn't want to wish that for my friends or people who I love. It wasn't the only thing wrong with our relationship. That's another podcast. No, but I'm taking your point. I'm owning that. As a young woman, I didn't see that there was a problem with that at all. But I'm just really looking from a different vantage point now. I think a good man later in life quite often wants to be with a good woman of the same era. Well, I hope that's brought some solace to our Anonymous correspondent,

but trust me, we are thinking of you. Yeah. And don't think you're being self-pitying. I think you're absolutely entitled to feel, what the hell happened there? And lots of people will agree. And this is just from a slightly different perspective. From Anonymous again, I'm in my early 30s and single.

Pretty much all of my friends are married, getting married or having children. It feels hard sometimes, I get those pitying looks from people. The worst occasions are weddings but my favourite incident was at my granddad's funeral when somebody asked if I'd brought anybody with me, like you'd bring a date to a funeral. Coupled up people's sake! Coupled up people also to send... This I really get, and I'm grateful to you for referencing this. Coupled up people also tend to say things like, I wish I lived alone.

They also have the habit of advising me not to bother dating at all, because after all, life is easier without somebody else in it, or not to have children for the same reason. I don't feel like you can or should say this to people if you do stroke have done the exact thing you are advising against. I'm sure it's intended to make me feel better but it just winds me up. Totally get that too. Yeah. It's interesting isn't it when people say people who are apparently to all intents and purposes

really happily with somebody else and with six wonderful children all at Harvard will tell you not to bother either getting married or having kids. But also it's just the inappropriate place that you're questioned about your status and I really feel for you because you know I remember those times myself and it was things like prisonings as well, where there'd be some kind of elderly relative who'd come along and say, oh, it'll be your turn one day. Oh, God, I'm afraid it's just a fact

that you can rely on the over, I'm going to say the over 80s, to say the most unhelpful thing. Yeah. Just extraordinary. Well, I think actually you could turn the tables, couldn't you? You could go to a family funeral and say to the old person, it'll be yours. Quite soon. But you can't say that. Time's running out to take advantage of Wealthsimple's best match offer yet. With our big winter bundle, you'll get a 2% match on qualified RRSP transfers and a

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Details at fizz.ca. Martha Lane Fox is many things. Currently President of the British Chambers of Commerce, she's also a woman who can cast her eyes across the horizon of the digital age. A long lens granted to her by being founder of LastMinute.com, back in the last century. Being the government's digital champion quite early in this one. being on the board of Twitter before Elon Musk took the board for himself and she now sits as a crossbench peer in the House of Lords using a recent debate to raise her concerns about the backward step of cutting DEI programmes in America and certainly not celebrating women's contribution to the workforce. Martha, very good afternoon from the both of us.

Hi. Where would you like to start? What's making you particularly and the most angry at the moment? You know I'm so angry that I'm angry. More dancing on the pin isn't it, but I feel as though I'm not prone to anger generally. I feel generally as though you can impact the world and improve things. But when I was thinking about the tyranny that is International Women's Day, and I was looking at the stats,

and as you so kindly reminded me in the century before this one, although it feels like the century before that, was lucky enough to start my business. Really, nothing has changed at all in the world of technology. It's improved in many bits of the workforce. But when you look at tech, which as we know is eating the world, it hasn't improved at all. It world of technology it's improved you know many bits of the workforce but when you look at tech which as we know is eating the world it hasn't improved at all it's going backwards and that is monumentally

depressing and important so I'm angry about that predominantly. Right was that a cat we just heard in the background? Yes. Sorry, I have my two Bengal cats. They're the most kind of celebrity hungry cats that you can imagine. Every time I do anything from home they're straight there on the camera. Well, we welcome them to Times Radio this afternoon. It's such an interesting point though about why we should all be worried about what's happening over there, particularly in Silicon Valley. And actually, when we announced that you were on the programme today, and I talked about DEI,

Charles, one of our listeners, got in touch to say, why are we taking our talking points from the USA? DEI is an American term. We talk about EDI, which is similar, but not the same. We aren't the 51st state and I wonder whether you can make that connection clear for us as to why it actually does really matter to all of us now. Yes and I agree with Charles in many ways you know one of the things I said when I was speaking last week in an article subsequently I don't think I even said the words DEI in the last five years,

I have said it more in the last five weeks than in the last five years. So we talk about diversity and inclusion, we talk about equality, diversity, and inclusion. But the bottom line is that equality measures and programs and arguments seem to need to be reinforced right now even even in the UK. For two major reasons, I'd have said firstly, because as everybody knows, we're so interconnected with the US economy. So many of our businesses are US businesses,

businesses that employ thousands of people here, businesses that are both in the tech sector and in other places. And unfortunately, we do take cultural cues from the US. So whether it's DEI, EI, equality inclusion, how we want to frame it, there's been just a bit of a rowing back specifically, but kind of more bit more existentially,

slight change in tone that is alarming if you care, as I think all of us do about equality, and I would frame it as that. And then secondly, and perhaps a bit more specifically, the impact particularly of the tech sector in this country is dramatic as we know. The influence of everything from Google to Meta to Amazon is profound, not just because of the people

that they employ, but also because of the programs and the projects that they run in this country. you know not to pick on Google because they're all doing it but they have stopped all their programs around you know AI for good or anything to do with under representation and that's partly because they're worried about being sued in the US but it is having an impact on organizations here. I know that you're always keen to make the point that actually equality means success. It's not just a nice thing to do, it's not just something that companies should do, it is actually on the balance sheets a good thing to do.

Yes, I mean this it's depressing, it's depressing that I have to be realistic that many things we have tried to do to improve the dynamics of the workforce have not worked over the last few decades. But the thing I find most surprising and the biggest disconnect is that we know fact statistics research that it is good business. Harvard Business Review did a study I think it was in 2013, it may have been 2015, that showed that diverse teams equal 20% more profit. And there have been many multiple studies post that. So this is not new news, and yet seem to have to keep making this argument again and again. It's not just about the profit part. It's also about your employee base, particularly younger people, kind of under 35 year olds, look to diverse companies and want to work there

more than other companies. We know that customers as well increasingly care about who's made their products. So it is of course about the bottom line, but it's also about thinking about your kind of constituent groups and who you're serving as well. Yeah, what I don't understand, Martha, is why Silicon Valley,

and I'm just using that as a big loose term, so I apologize if that's annoying to anybody listening. Why does it want to appear to be so closely in step with Trump? These are companies led by non-white people, there are women there, there are gay people thriving at the top of AI. Why not vociferously stand up to someone who is slicing through DEI. Is it really just about what they see as the ability to make more money faster? Yes, I mean I've been round around this in my head and I cannot imagine any other reason because the moral courage of these guys is so low right now and it is guys. I mean you're right there are a

couple of women in the businesses but really not that many so I think it's important to be specific about that. You know the sight of those six men overlooking the inauguration men who were you know five six years ago kowtowing to in the other political direction which you know again it's not a political point this is just a quick way in which the vaults happened, if you like. It's partly to do with regulation, so they're all anxious that their businesses are going to be more tightly regulated. Oh hello, we've got cat number two now, she's got strong views on this one. And it's also about government contracts, and I think that's the thing that's sometimes not spoken about so much. Every single one of these guys has contracts with the government, and they're all

anxious about losing them, and they're all anxious, anxious you know trying to be generous that they're going to follow the executive order and you know be sued but as we argue that the other side of all of this often trounce on the law it's somewhat rich. Exactly so their employees may well be suing them as well if they head off in another direction. Can I ask you about your personal experience, Martha, because you were on the board of Twitter when it was Twitter and then Elon Musk came along and became the board himself. In your dealings with him, did you find him to be a genius or a prat? I like that spectrum. I had a bunch of interactions with him because I was chairing the Compensation Committee and the Nomination and Governance Committee. So I was the first port of call for Elon when he was

thinking he wanted to be on the board, which obviously he didn't want to buy the company. And it's public, so I don't feel bad recounting this, but we had a very strange conversation, partly strange because at his request he said, call me at 1 a.m. his time. And I thought well, okay, you know, it's Elon Musk. I'll call him at 1 a.m. No problem. And I had not realized that he was not in Silicon Valley. It was actually in Austin, Texas. So when I called him it wasn't 1 a.m. It was 3 a.m. So that was a great start by MNF and he'd obviously been hitting the ketamine hard by that point perhaps, allegedly. And so we had a, he was a, you know,

it was perfectly fine. He was perfectly friendly to me considering I was irrelevant in his universe of people. But this struck me. He said to me, I said to him, you're very busy while on earth, do you want to engage with the board of Twitter? It's not that you haven't got a bunch of stuff to do. And he said to me, I have solved the climate crisis by inventing electric cars. I have helped the population crisis and the interplanetary space challenge by inventing SpaceX, and now I will save democracy by joining the board of Twitter. So, you know, that gives you an expression of it, and that was nearly two and a half years ago so it's got considerably worse and then you know subsequently as is well documented publicly he was awful to the people in the company to us as directors and tried to get out of the deal and you know became

monstrous. So when somebody says all of that to you I mean what a lovely humble guy I mean what a lovely humble guy. What do you say back to that? I mean in a kind of cloaked jab I said I think you might be overestimating the power of Twitter because I couldn't say to him I think you're overestimating your own freaking power, you lunatic. By the sounds of it one of your cats wanted to say exactly that. Very vociferous while we were talking about Elon Musk. Can we make the most of having you here to just talk about your role as the president of the British Chambers of Commerce? And what do your members tell you about what they need to happen here through our government in order to make British business safe from tariffs

and from Trump's effect at the moment? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a tough time in the business. Our members are a reflection of the general economy, so 85% of the economy is small and medium-sized businesses, as you know, that's 61% of the workforce, and so it's a significant percentage of our members that reflect that. And if you're a small business right now, not only are you feeling quite rocked by the global uncertainty and supply chain issues on one level, but also just the tariffs question, but you're also looking into the tax changes from next month.

And so it's tough. And we had a business council meeting, a chair of business council for the BCC this very early this morning. And we had a couple of government representatives there. And I think there is a real recognition that it's incredibly important just to focus on the things that we can do to help business right now, whether it's, as has been well talked about,

quicker planning changes, focusing on the industrial strategy, making sure that any blockers to growth that local areas are seeing get unplugged, making sure we focus on the local skills improvement plans, all the different things, business rates, all the things that our members are telling us about. So yes, there is nervousness and I think it is a tough time, especially if you're in a small or medium business. How do more women make it to the top of business and particularly to the top of tech Martha? It's no one thing. I get frustrated if it's ever reduced to a single answer because it's obviously way

more complicated than that. Very often people say oh it's all about the culture in schools and what people are learning at school. And yes, partly, but we can't put all of this on the education system. That's preposterous. In my opinion, it is the boring, hard work of leadership and a leader of a business can make this change. There are brilliant women out there wanting to work and there are brilliant women in tech wanting to work, but you have to go through your business with a sharp analytical knife, if you like, and then make the changes alongside it. You look at how you write job adverts because we know women respond more readily to problem-solving adverts rather than you need these set of qualifications. You have to look at how you then do the appraisal system. You have to look at your flexible working, your childcare. You have to look at how promotions

happen. You have to look at everything. When I wrote something last week about my anger, I then was touched but also horrified to receive so many messages from women and there was one that really struck me because this is so endemic. It was a woman who's in her early 40s and she was doing pretty well in her business, you might argue there's no problem, but she was at a middle tier. She wanted to be the top of this tech group in a bank. And she said that they have all male off sites and don't invite her, that the kind of default way that people get promoted

is still by going out and drinking, which she does not want to do. And this was clearly when we have done super well in her career, but was just not breaking through to that next level. So it's so many different bits of the equation. women have done super well in her career but was just not breaking through to that next level. So it's so many different bits of the equation and unfortunately I think it does just come back to leaders, male or female, who are prepared to do that really careful work of every single part of a career path. Yeah and Jane and I would concur with everything that you've said there. I think also it's about men not

switching off, isn't it? It's not often the case that a man is deliberately obtuse towards you in the workplace, but I bet there are quite a lot of men listening to us having this conversation who have just slightly turned the volume down in their heads and they think it's women talking to women about other women. And I think just maybe we do just have to say, nice men, please just hear us out. It's good for your books. Yes, I think two things. I think, you know, I hate this. I went on the Women's March in Washington when Trump was first elected. Obviously that went well. And I remember seeing a sign that said, I can't believe I still have to protest this F, FS, you could guess what that was.

And I'm gonna repeat it now on times radio, you're far too nice in the middle of the afternoon. And I feel that that's because it's true, you become like white noise. And I know that there's a kind of credibility gap for some people to have to keep talking about it. And that's just depressing. So I think firstly, and I've been thinking about this a lot

and I know some other women are thinking about it too, we have to recognise the ways we've been talking about it haven't worked. You know, if I think back to 30 years I've been around this sector, it hasn't worked. So we need to think about it differently and come up with different language and approach things differently. So I think approaching the problem with some humility is super important and I do think it does just come back to the business case. It's just come from speaking at an event for women, partly about AI with a brilliant woman called Edwina Dunn, who started Dunn-Humbie,

which is a data and analytics business. She did that in the late 90s when we were doing lastnight.com. She's a much more technical person than me, but she's just relentless in saying, this is not about kindness, generosity, fairness, although it is obviously all those things as well. It is about money.

And that I think is, you just have to keep going hard on. Yeah. Lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed. That is Martha Lane Fox, Baroness Lane Fox. Any thoughts on that? If you were one of those gentlemen who was listening and you'd like to be really, really honest with us this afternoon and admit that as soon as we started talking about equality in business, you just slightly went, oh, okay, maybe now's, you know, when I do something else whilst listening to the radio, why don't you tell us what it is that would keep you intrigued, what it is that would make you think a bit more about all of our behaviours.

We need some more of that female wisdom in the world, don't we? Oh, we do. Right now, yeah, and you know, we come a long way, baby. But I think we need to make sure we're not being naive about where we are at the moment. Because all of that kind of wash of male dominated coding, AI, etc. is powerful, really, really, really powerful. And we're going to struggle to reverse things, aren't we? Further down the line, we might just be in a place at the moment where we could affect a tiny bit of change. Oh, that'd be a good thing, wouldn't it?

I know, but where do we fit it in? Jane, that's the thing, isn't it? You know, we're all busy. We've all got jobs and kids and friends and parents and all of that kind of stuff to look after. Defiffuses. Rebalancing the tech world. I don't know, Thursday between 3.30 and 4.00. Can we do it?

I'll see. I'll meet you by our favourite bush on Hampstead Heath. And we'll see what we can achieve. Right. Okay. Please help us if you can. It's Jane of Fiat Times. Radio. The chances are slim. They'll give it a go. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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