Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Nothing sexy about helping Santa (with Caspar Lee)

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

In today’s episode, Jane and Fi mull over Mariah Carey's eccentricities, whether Michael Binyon would do us a favour with a new jingle and the state of Donald Trump's ankles.Plus YouTuber and entrepreneur Caspar Lee joins for a chat.You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murrayAnd if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Anthony ChengPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think that's the only one of his books I haven't read. Oh, okay. I don't want to ruin it for you. Well, I mean, he tells such a good story, doesn't he? And such good characters. But I'm not very good with my... Would I understand the... No, I just hadn't got a clue what the plot was. But I just like being... I like the way you say it quite clearly that I wouldn't understand it. No, you wouldn't.

No, no, you wouldn't. We're on solid ground. You wouldn't, love. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? You wouldn't love. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces, like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park? Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution Lonnie G. Bunch who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your

trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash WDC. I want to say a huge thank you to Melanie who sent, look at that, it's a handwritten card. That's beautiful writing as well. It is beautiful writing and I think that may actually be in a proper pen. Dear Fee, I know Jane always stole The Times' copy of The Lady when it was still in circulation before you could get your hands in it. I don't know if The Times also subscribes to Country Life, but I thought maybe Nancy might enjoy reading this ode to her greyhound between... I can't read that. Something.

Ode to her greyhound brethren in the latest edition. It goes without saying, Love Show and podcast in North Berwick. Oh, coming to enjoy the North Berwick live. Melanie, come say hello. So, Country Life, I don't think we get sent a complimentary copy do we? And we'd love it. It does seem to be, you would very surely we deserve a copy. What's in this? What's in this?

I was like, yeah, because I went on a walk once. And I think it was in the countryside. What's on the cover exactly? A beautiful study of a greyhound. So it's a, I think they call them blue greyhounds, they're grey greyhounds and it is an interview with lots of people who love greyhounds, the kindest, sweetest dog. And I read it this morning Melanie on the tube and it's a really lovely piece. I don't there's something this it's a little bit probably the similar thing for you reading match reports of games

you've already watched which is to me not the appeal of watching football but I know that lots of people like yourself they like to relive it they like to relive it they want to hear all of you know the pundits' opinions about it and then spew them out again. To be honest. I'd like to get Alan Shearer out of my head. But it's the same thing. I'd spent two hours with Nancy this morning. We had a really, really lovely long walk around the park and I just thought on the tube, yeah, I want to read some more about dogs. Is she up for a two hour walk then?

No, we have to sit down. that's why it's two hours now. Oh I see right so it's not two hours of walking. No she used to be able to do it but she is old she's heading towards 13 which is very old for a greyhound so we have to do about 40 minutes and then we sit down she has a sausage roll I have a cup of coffee and then we do another 40 minutes back and it's absolutely joyful. Here's a link she She wants to take advice from Mariah Carey, who's in The Times today. And she simply doesn't believe in ageing. Now, based on her appearance, I think there might be something in this. She is 56 officially, but she has said that ageing simply doesn't happen to her

because, brilliantly, she simply doesn't acknowledge time. So you have to say arranging a meeting with Mariah Carey must be a complete nightmare. Whether it's a light lunch or a buffet supper, you have no idea when she's going to rack up. It learns some uncertainty to buying tickets for a concert. And that as well. How does she do it you ask? Well her beauty regime is intensive. She said she avoids harsh lighting and heavy makeup and her diet consists of no carbs at all and eating Norwegian salmon and capers every day. She does have two kiddies and she says she slept up to 15 hours a night. Golly, so they were children who slept through right from the very start. US media has reported that she

often hires someone to massage her while she sleeps. I think that's pointless. The joy of a massage is to be awake and then taken to a place of slumber. What's the point in... sorry that just sounds really dodgy as well. Keep on at it. No, it doesn't sound right. But I think she's not the worst, is she? Oh no. So if you're just eating some smoked salmon and capers, it'd be a bit boring after a while, wouldn't it? And no carbs.

That is at the very, very thin end of the woo-woo wellness wedge. So I say, Mariah, all hail to you. I'd better have a chip love every now and again. I couldn't not go through the rest of my life without a bit of carb. I mean I'm very low on carbs apart from my bagels, sandwiches and a bit of toast every now and again. Well you have a full box of pasta. Oh and pasta! So apart from that I dodge carbs like Mariah almost completely.

Are you a fan of Mariah's music? No, no I'm not. That's neither here nor there. Well Mariah, I very much hope that you're listening to this podcast, one of your many, many, many, many, many staff members passes it on, because you would have been thrilled by the last three minutes. What do you like in your own music? No! And when the Christmas song comes on, and also the Christmas video that accompanies that song is really, you know, it's very kind of, you know, when Santa's little helper's a bit sexy. Oh God, there's nothing sexy about helping Santa do anything. Now thank you for your interactions with this podcast which

continue to delight us. Pam says I'm really glad Mystic Carve has continued her run of being absolutely wrong every time. That isn't actually true by the way. Very occasionally the Great Prophets gets it spot on. While a broken clock is right twice a day. Writing off the lionesses a couple of months ago is the best thing that could have happened. Well done. However, I do believe that the prediction that the men will not win the World Cup next summer will be correct.

Right, Pam. the prediction that the men will not win the World Cup next summer will be correct. Right Pam, so you can't have it both ways. You can't diss me and then say that actually I might have got it right for once with next summer's prediction which has come very early. It just came over me in a big wave. Right, are we writing that down somewhere? Well don't worry, I mean I'll be sure to remember that I prophesied that they won't win the World Cup. I still think it's a sign of madness. Right, holiday home books. I know the future. Walk away kids. Walk away. Okay, long time listener, first time emailer, Anthony.

He's good. He's very good. We should keep him. Yeah, I was just about to say Anthony on standby, but he literally stood by already. We were thinking earlier in the office, it would cost us money though, that's the thing, we need to get a jingle that warns nervy listeners that a jingle is approaching. And we think we might have nailed down the man to deliver that jingle and it is Michael Binion who is currently on Times Radio, the radio station, standing in, sitting in, as we say in show business, for Hugo Rifkin. Now Michael Binion is a redoubtable intellectual isn't he actually? He is, he's a former lead writer at the Times, diplomatic correspondent, foreign correspondent,

times, diplomatic correspondent, foreign correspondent, long time times employee. It doesn't get better than that. And he, although whether he could take a really defiant penalty, we don't know. But he's certainly, he's got some grit in his oyster, hasn't he? In his intellectual oyster. I think it would be good if we could just record him saying jingle coming, and then people would just calm down. Quite a lot of people just want us to drop the jingle, don't they? I'm not one of those people. Because if you're falling asleep, then it suddenly jolts you awake. Maybe you need a massage while you're asleep.

Right, back to holiday home books. This one comes in from Mark and Rachel Saltmarsh. I think it's just from Rachel. But that's lovely that you've got a shared email address. I listened to Thursday's show the same day whilst on holiday in... Oh, oh no, hang on. This is a trick one, isn't it? Cucubri. Cucubri.

Cucubri. Dumfries and Galloway, we're here for a couple of days after climbing Ben Nevis on Wednesday. Never again in brackets. Oh, well done. Imagine just saying that. What have you done? I want to climb Ben Nevis on Wednesday. Never again in brackets. Imagine just saying that, what have you done? Oh, I climbed Ben Nevis on Wednesday. After a few question whether books left in holiday homes are still a thing, I'm delighted to report

that the Scottish Lodge we're staying in has a full bookcase for guests. The rest of my family have gone off to play golf and I'm left with this fabulous choice and I don't know where to start. It's a wonderful, wonderful shelf full of books. So you've got all of the holiday greats in there. You've got a Lee Child, you've got a David Baldacci, you've got a John Le Carre, you've also got Ruth Jones, us three, you've

got a Robert Harris. It's the fear index which I loved. I had no idea what it was about. Is that insider trading? Yes. With the big computer somewhere in Switzerland and the big server that fails. I think that's the only one of his books I haven't read. Oh, okay. Well, don't worry, we're in it for you. Well, I mean, he tells such a good story, doesn't he?

And such good characters. But I'm not very good with my, would I understand the... No, I just hadn't got a clue what the plot was but I just like the way you say quite clearly that I wouldn't understand it no we're on solid ground you wouldn't love there's a book there by David Dyer and I was sad to see it wasn't something by Danny Dyer you've also got a Nick Hornby you've got the Silence of the Girls by Pat Barker I mean it's a really it is a really fantastic I'd be so happy if I turned up in that Scottish lodge.

So it is very good to see that the bookshelf is still doing its thing. Although Jane has in her hand an email of the House of Horrors bookshelf. Following your conversation about books in holiday homes, says Una, I couldn't resist sharing this display from a somewhat eccentric Airbnb we stayed in in Portugal back in 2017. The host was a truly delightful lady but she spoke no English but had clearly made an effort to present an enticing book selection for our international guests. So here we have four books included in this display. A novel by the great

French writer, Marguerite Dura, L'Amour de la Chine de Noir, Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, which is an absolute classic, isn't it? Although I haven't read it. I must admit, have you read that? Yes, I have. Yeah, it is very, very, very, very, very good. Getting to the lighter end of things. Principiosios de Económica Contemporanea number one, I've only read number two of you, by Fernando Baldwin and probably the sexiest of all the new international security review 1998, which features I think that's the United, yeah it's the Union Jack on the cover, the Union Jack coming down in Hong Kong is on the cover of that

inviting looking tome, the new international security review of 1998. I mean it's not the best of those security reviews, you're probably onto something there Fee, I think 2002 was a really good one, but not so much with 1998. You wouldn't, in all honesty, want to curl up on a wet Wednesday in your holiday home with any of those books. But if I had to choose one, it would probably be Cheery Truman Capote. I know that is a nailed on fact. That is a bookshelf that so needs a Ruth Jones in it. Oh, I'm listening to the new Ruth Jones because she reads her books.

Oh, brilliant. And so they are such a treat. And in this book, she plays a Scottish person and she does an accent all the way through. So if you're a Scottish listener who is also listening to that, let me know what you think. I think, I love Ruth Jones, but I think it's a very convincing Scottish accent. Am I right? OK. Am I? Well punt it out there. Yeah. Tanya's coming in as a fellow scruncher. Cats bum lue roll dispensers. I'm with Fee, I'm a scruncher. I realise the error of my ways but it just seems to be what

I naturally go in for in the moment. Also I'm amazed nobody else has mentioned the floor in these dispensers. I often find the next sheet fails to dispense. So then you're left with a dispenser full of lural that you can't access and one measly piece with which to wipe. And you're spot on there, Tanya. That's happened to me as well. And it's doubly frustrating, isn't it, if you've got one of those duo dispensers? Because quite often there are two cat's bums so they're looking a

little bit like a rack and if if the first one goes you think oh I'll be okay because I've always got the second one to fall back on and the second one goes too and you can't get into the bloody things they've got a special key haven't they they are someone designed those yeah yeah but I think it's one of the most parsimonious aspects of the modern toilet experience because we've gone down the road of never having soap anymore haven't we and quite a lot of new toilets they don't have proper dryers they've just got that weird bit under the mirror that just kind of goes... And you don't always know where it is and I sometimes struggle to

locate it. So lots of people are leaving just shaking their hands or wiping them on their jeans. Probably not very hygienic is it? I don't know. You're only allowed a certain amount of water, you know the tap doesn't dispense constantly. It used to be really good fun in toilets didn't it? It did didn't it? Not anymore. It's another thing. What's happening to this once proud nation of ours? I hope reform takes this up. Absolutely. Jo says please stop him talking and she is referring to the conversation, well you couldn't call it conversation, the meeting, could you call it a meeting, between our Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer and President Donald Trump yesterday. Now Donald Trump is in the UK at the moment, he's in Scotland at

his golf courses. Joe just says as an American I am mortified daily by the increasingly obvious ignorance and senility of the tangerine buffoon and on behalf of my country I can only apologize to you for having to put up with his visit. Right, as always on the radio the two of you have managed to remain professional while inwardly cringing. Joe thank you and this is with reference to the fact that on the radio program yesterday we obviously carried the Donald Trump press conference with Keir Starmer. And we have talked about this before because whatever you say or think about the man, his public appearances are, to a degree, box office. Yeah, they're unswitchable.

And that's the problem. Because you think his line of thought is so random that the next thing he says may well be the thing that makes headlines across the world the next day. So you can never be sure that you should leave the press conference early just in case that happens. And he didn't disappoint on that front yesterday. So he went through his random thoughts on whether or not the Mayor of London was a nice man, whether or not Nigel Farage was a nice man, Scottish independence,

the new direction of cheap pharmaceuticals, whether or not any of the hostages held in Gaza had been winked at by their captors. He then gave a lecture on what would get Kirstama elected ahead of the Reform Party. He did windmills as well. He did his thoughts about a deadline for Ukraine and Russia. I mean it was just unbelievable Jane. None of it with any great depth. I mean it took him an hour to get through all of these topics but it was just this stream of consciousness that is mesmerizing. I said yesterday that I'd run out of adjectives and I can't do any better than you in summing up what the stream gave us, but it was largely cobblers. Yeah, and he won't be held to account in any case.

This is the problem. We've said it so many times before, He's held to his own unique low standard. And it's so interesting that if you were to put a female politician in that chair and get her speaking in that way, I remain convinced that she would be led away in a straight jacket. She would. It's just, we have to keep acknowledging that. And that was actually what was so liberating last week when we talked to Max Hastings because Max Hastings is possibly someone that I might have thought of as being shall we say old school Tory and I don't think he'd take issue with that as a description. Well he's the former editor of The Telegraph so I think you're on safe ground there.

Hints at some of his views definitely. And he is tearing his hair out because he feels that it's no longer the case that we are saying exactly what we've just said, that this isn't normal, this shouldn't be tolerated and we need to keep acknowledging that the way the so-called leader of the free world speaks is peculiar, wrong and outrageous. But you said you'd watch the news last night. The deference I felt was extraordinary. Because if you hadn't seen the press conference, then the BBC News and other news services are available. And I'm not saying this to be chippy about a former employer. But you would have had no idea of how random and bonkers and just dangerously loose-lipped he sounded.

And I think there's such a huge danger in giving the man kind of credibility for somehow in the chaos of his mind having a logical plan. I don't believe he does. And when people say, well look he's come onto the geopolitical stage as a breath of fresh air and he is sorting things out, well look, he's come onto the geopolitical stage as a breath of fresh air, and he is sorting things out, well let's just remember the things that he promised us before, that the war in Ukraine would be ended within 24 hours of his administration. That has not happened. He claimed yesterday to be solving, in his words, not mine, on average, a war a month.

Oh, he's done wonders. Well, where? Where? Because actually it feels to most of us like the world is on fire with aggression. So I just, I find myself having to kind of slightly go back and reassure myself some days that we're okay to be very, very critical of him Jane. I think we are okay honestly,'t worry but I'm like you I sometimes I found myself thinking about this in the middle of the night and I'm really wondering about what the politicians, our current contemporary politicians, what they will say in their inevitable memoirs about their dealings

with this man. It'd be fascinating. It's really gonna be interesting to see what they put out there let's say a decade from now. Yep, it's a very good point actually. I read on holiday Robert Harris. I mean let's just mention Robert Harris as often as we can. I love Robert. And we love William Boyd too. Oh we like him. There's very few men we take issue with. Just Donald Trump really. There's a terrible competition between them isn't there? We've stirred up in the past. We don't want to stir it up again.

We want everyone to be friends. Anyway Bob and Boyd, you're welcome any time. I read his book Precipice finally on holiday a couple of weeks ago which is about the affair that Asquith had with a much much younger... Oh young enough to be his daughter. Oh almost young enough to be his granddaughter actually. I think he was 63, she was in her twenties. Anyway, but it did make me think because those are based on real letters which were only released after a certain passage of time, which is always the way, isn't it? So actually, within our lifetime, we will probably find out so much from the state papers

that do have to be kept of these meetings that go on behind closed doors with Donald Trump. It will be absolutely fascinating. There will come a time when the man isn't here anymore, even if he goes down my, or I, Kerry's route of salmon and capers and we know he doesn't. He likes a burger. Those ankles. I mean we were watching him today. Would you describe it as wobbling gently across his Scottish golf course? I mean he's very fat and very old. So there will come a day when he's not here anymore and so people will say things. That's just an inevitability I'm afraid. People say things after somebody is no longer here to

defend themselves and you're right. I think we might see something completely different. I think Sakir Starmer is obviously doing a great job trying to make sure that we don't become as a country some kind of a punch bag for America. But I would quite like to hear his debrief at the end of the day to his described as beautiful wife, beautiful wife. I mean I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Donald Trump may have been exaggerating when he claimed yesterday that Keir Starmer's wife Victoria is admired all over the United States. I mean if you're in the United States at the moment how often have you admired the very very industrious, hard-working, good woman I'm sure, but anyway. NHS employee. This is from Alex who says, I'm sure you'll be covering the lionesses, when will we have

referenced it? It was indeed, she's very rude about Mystic Gov so I'm just skirting over that, it was indeed a wonderful event with nail-biting final moments. However, I also wanted to highlight what I consider the unfathomable amount of hate the girls still seem to get, which I can only assume is from deeply concerning, bitter, misogynistic and sometimes racist corners of the country, no doubt emboldened by the available cloak of anonymity. Alex, yes, what can we say? It's out there, they're out there, they're bizarre people, they're sad, they're hopeless. I don't know what we do about them except attempt to ignore them by and large. But there is no doubt that some men are really wrestling, not just men

either, but largely men, are really wrestling with this English female footballing triumph. I mean the vast majority of men are just mildly interested, happy, you know, proud, enthusiastic along with the rest of us. But there's this hardcore of numpty chaps who cannot get their heads around it and it is peculiar and I'm sorry for them because I can't think of any other. Why would you not just say, because I'd be really chuffed if the England men won anything. I really would. I mean, the problem is they haven't. So it's...

So do you think if the England men were on better form, I mean, they are on better form than they've been for years, but they aren't on... They got to the final of the Euros last year. But they aren't on top, top, you know, actually lift the trophy for them. But do you think that if they had, it would be a simple fact that the Lionesses would have been more universally welcomed and applauded? Maybe it's that. Is it a kind of either or thing going on?

It could be that. It could be that if England men had won their own Euros last summer, that we'd be double delight. Yeah, we'd have the largesse instead of the slightly kind of bitter, which I didn't get it. I'm not interested, therefore I don't think anyone else is interested. No, there's loads of stuff I'm not interested in. But if somebody has won a Tiddlywinks tournament representing England, I'm happy for them, Fie. Oh no, I'm absolutely with you. I don't care whether they're male or female, non-binary, I couldn't care less.

Good luck to them. I stopped having difficult thoughts about chess. I just don't care. But because I don't care, it doesn't mean that I'm going to log on to a site and go... Exactly! I hate you! I hate the way you look, I hate the way you play. I'm not interested in chess! Okay, right, and yet you're here.

Oh dear, this one came in a while back from Maya. And thank you very much indeed. I'm a new listener, first time emailer. First time listener, first time emailer. Not as good as the first time, Anthony, but not bad. Anthony is with us for the first time today and he's doing very well indeed. He's also got a suit on which makes very nice change. On a much higher standard than we're used to.

Maya goes on to say, writing to you from Chicago, where I'm currently visiting family, though I moved to the San Francisco Bay area about a year ago. Moving to a new city as a single 30 year old with a freelance job has made this time in my life a bit of a roller coaster of emotions but having an abundant supply of reliably joyful, fascinating and hilarious company to occupy me whilst cooking, cleaning, driving, walking etc has provided much spiritual uplift and comfort. I think it's just, I think people assume that if you're young and single moving somewhere is exciting and dynamic and wow,

it's really adventurous and all that kind of stuff. But I'm with you, Maya. I think it can be really difficult actually. I think it's much easier to move when you're either a student, you've got everything around you, a family, you've got a way in to meet other people through your kids and stuff. So you hang on in there lady, because I really sympathise with you enormously. Maya goes on to say, I've always been interested in how dialect and vocab differs across geographic regions. I often find myself eagerly stopping whatever I'm doing while I listen to your podcast for the words and

phrases I've never heard before and she's done this fantastic list and what surprised me about everything in the list is just the things that we take for granted other people would know. Here we go. Poorly as in ill. Yeah I would have thought I just assumed wrongly that was kind of universally understood. Naff boffin, foxed as in confused, steading as in dating, manky bugbear, dosh, hardgraph, budgie smugglers, a personal favourite says Maya, blighty lido finger buffet, adorable, crikey O'Reilly, swings and roundabouts, very useful in brackets. I'll stop there for now, but please let me know if there are any specific words or sayings

that you think this linguistically curious listener from the American Midwest should be onto. I fear I'd be ridiculed for actually incorporating any of them into my daily speech, but I might start doing it regardless for a bit of personal amusement. Well, we're going to set you a little challenge here, Maya. So just over the next week, if you could get what should we go for? I think it will be easier on you to start off with. I like manky. Yeah. So can you get manky into a sentence and see if anybody raises an eyebrow? And because it's summer, I think you can work budgie smugglers in very nicely. Did we, the English that is, we're proud to be English this week,

did we invent that term or is that from Australia? I don't know. Somebody with a better grasp of lexicography will be able to fill us in. And the person I'd like to meet and hear from is the person who has attempted to smuggle a budgie in their pants. In their pants. Why would you do it? Uncomfortable I would imagine for all involved and probably quite cruel. It's a very good point and also I don't know what that says about the person because presumably there would have been a friend of theirs and I'm going to use a terrible kind of male trope here who would have thought it funny to say budgie smugglers when in fact what they

really wanted to say was parrot smugglers. Mine's so much bigger than yours. I'm not kidding, do people still keep parrots? Yes they do keep parrots. There was quite a well-known celebrity recently whose parrot was unbelievably rude, like one of those properly sweary parrots. Oh, Judy Dench. Is it Judy Dench who's got a sweary parrot? I'll have to look into that. I don't know whether they have a sweary parrot. It's still with us, as we say. Yeah, I'm fascinated by that though. And because there does seem to be quite a bit of evidence that the parrots really do understand what's going on, so they drop the right thing into conversation. I think that's just...

No. What do you mean they drop the right thing into conversation? So if you teach a parrot certain words, then they don't just randomly when you walk in the front door, they don't say, I mean, pick a parrot phrase. Hello. Okay, so they wouldn't say hello when you were leaving a room. They'd know that they said hello when you entered a room. And let's say Judy Dench's parrot, you know, says you fudging idiot. Let's say that that's the phrase that Judy's parrot uses. There is evidence that the parrot would use it when you did something stupid

rather than when you just sat down to have a nice cup of tea. In my very limited experience of parrots talking, they all have the same accent, the one I attempted to impersonate. So you'd imagine that Judi Dench's parrot would speak in received pronunciation. Very much RSC parrot. Exactly. But I don't think it does I think it just sounds like every other parrot so is every parrot born in market I don't think so anonymous says but you think you can have a Welsh if you have a parrot and you've got the time and I appreciate that if you're a parrot owner you may be

quite busy I don't know what responsibilities lie ahead for you in your average parrot owning day. You may not be in communication with the rest of the world. Record them please so we can hear them speaking and decide whether or not my theory that they all have the same accent is in fact true or like many of my theories complete bullshit. I'd like to hear from an Australian parrot. Anonymous says can I put in a plea for people and this person has just had a or like many of my theories, complete bullshit. I'd like to hear from an Australian parrot. Anonymous says, can I put in a plea for people, and this person has just had a belly full of this,

to stop referring to the Southwest Coast Path as the salt path. I am lucky enough to live very close to the path, and hearing people referring to the path by that made up title of a made-up book is annoying. And then she breaks this heartbreaking news to us. The South West Coast Path is called The South West Coast Path. Okay, it's another liberty that Raina Wynn has taken. We have had a couple of emails in support of Raina Wynn and very much against us,

our condemnation of the lack of truth that may lie behind all elements of the story. I'm sorry I'm on the side of us. That's good to hear. I just think she appears to have taken quite a lot of people for a not so much a long walk as a long ride. Yeah. And many of you have wanted to point out that Karen Pirrie's bum bag, and this coming in from Sandra, update on the bum bag situation. Karen opened the bum bag in the first episode to remove her phone. She took her badge out in a later episode and we heard her zip it closed in another scene.

Otherwise it was a weird addition to her outfit, I wonder if it's mentioned so much in the book. Good point. So if anybody, because it's Val McDermott's book, isn't it, that Karen Peary appears in. Despite the bum bag distraction, we enjoyed the whole series. It's a fantastic series, I just can't wait for them to do another one. I think she's so engaging and funny. It's a really good script. I just love everything about it, Joan. Have you, I did watch, I think on your recommendation, episode one of the Keely Hawes prime thing of the assassin. Yes. Have you seen that? No, that's not my recommendation. Have I got another friend?

Yes you have. I haven't. Because I've seen that come up on my, it's on the flicks, is it on the flicks? No it's on Prime. It's on Prime, I'm so sorry. You did say that, temporarily, it dropped out. I said it about 13 seconds ago and just nudged myself back in. I did look at it and I just wasn't in the mood for another. Well I'm not sure whether I'm in the mood.

I watched it because I thought you'd told me to watch it so I'm now really baffled. Oh that's the mood for it. Well, I'm not sure whether I'm in the mood. I watched it because I thought you told me to watch it. So I'm now really baffled. Oh, that's spooky. Anyway, there's a lot of violence and it's sort of funny. And but I'm very well in the very first scene. She's on a beach in Greece. She's a retired hit woman. I mean, there are many of them knocking around.

No doubt, quite a few in Greece. And she's on a beach in a deck chair, but she's not wearing a hat, not wearing, I think she has sunglasses with her but she's not wearing them and she certainly isn't wearing any sun cream. That's very disappointing. She's got very pale skin. She's quite pale skin.

I'm very concerned about that. Anyway, all kinds of highfalutin, highjinks ensue and but I'm still not entirely certain whether I'm going to stick with it because I wasn't very sure by the end of the first episode what was happening and I was hoping I could rely on you to tell me and it turns out that I can't. No, I've been delving into The Sounds which is a New Zealand crime drama which I think is on the prime as well, I better check that anyway, you can just shout The Sounds although annoyingly you can't shout the sounds because on my little thing, you know, where you talk into it, it's Siri, isn't it? Every time I asked for it, it just told me how to turn the volume up and down on my television.

It got very, very frustrating. I had to tap it in. It's like so much of the 21st century experience. Yeah. I would say that I very, very much enjoyed the first couple of episodes of The Sounds and I thought it was just going to get better and better and it's beautiful scenery and all of that but I was very disappointed by the ending. Oh just on that topic you know I've had this brief chat but I'd love to know our erudite listeners think I also read Column Toy Beans Long Island on holiday finally and you've read that too haven't you because I think you did the interview with him and I

really loved Brooklyn I loved all the characters in it, so I'd really been saving this because it's a follow-up. And I wonder what people thought of the ending, because it's not a definitive ending. And I was really upset by that, Jane, like, properly. I had to read the last couple of pages twice, because I wanted to find something in them that was just a bit more of a full stop but it was a proper proper kind of dot dot dot at the end of it and I think after two

books beautiful beautiful books featuring those characters I just felt like it was a I felt like it wasn't fair just just not fair. fair....any bit hanging. Yes. I wondered, if I'm honest, that it might have been better not to write a sequel to that book. I sort of thought... Because I love the film as well. I thought in some ways that was a perfect... It ended for me in just the right spot. OK.

So I didn't... In a way I felt a bit let down by being told a bit more. Does that make any sense? Yes, it makes perfect sense. Sometimes you just think, oh, let's leave them there. Yeah. Well, I felt like that about the whole of Notts Landing. LAUGHTER Apart from me, no-one will know what you mean about Notts Landing.

There was a chap in Notts Landing... HE SINGS A SONG Welcome to a cul-de-sac. LAUGHTER Nothing wrong with a cul-de-sac. Nothing wrong with a cul-de-sac. Nothing wrong with a cul-de-sac, but it was spawned from a windy ranch. Yes, that's true. That is true. One of the characters, is the name Gary? Gary, yeah. He used to wear a jumper, a V-neck jumper with nothing underneath. Sexy times. No, well they weren't't because I used to look at it and think, oh that must be irritating. Is that not itchy? Why haven't you got anything on it? I think it was Gary. The things that lodge in your mind, why? Was he married to

Donna? Maybe. Yeah, I think it was Gary. Jane is in Fae'rum. Don't worry, this ends soon. You're so polite. Jane is in her room. Oh my god, she's off on another one. And Jane has a vivid memory. So this is very well produced. She has a vivid memory of her career's advice in 1979. It was five minutes long. My mother had taken time off work, she reminds us, or remembers, to attend with me.

The advisor surveyed me, a quiet, spotty, rather low achieving 16 year old. She asked about my hobbies and out of desperation to make myself more interesting I offered that I liked taking photographs. I didn't actually even own a camera. Quick as a flash I was handed a pamphlet about training as a scene of crime photographer and my mother's incredulous snort was the end of the interview. I know from my own children's experience that career's advice has improved hugely. I do hope my own advisor found a job better suited to her own skills says Jane who went on to become a crime scene photographer. No! Jane leaves us hanging and Jane we need to know what you did go on to do.

Because I would have been perfect if you had a little more. Although, you know, not exactly the most life-enhancing pursuit. I would like to know what you have done. And I mean, careers advice did used to be pretty done. I am glad that things have improved. I think they have by and large. Yeah. Do you want to do the email that we did promise? It needs to remain anonymous, but it's such a heartfelt email and we wanted to throw it out to The Hive because our lovely listener is in quite a quandary. Well, she really is. Yeah. So do you want to take it

away and then don't worry, Anthony, we're out of here. Anonymous does say she has changed some details as well and kept locations vague. My mum was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 2017, that was truly awful. At the same time my sibling and I became slowly aware that our parents were perhaps having a kind of money crisis. The background to this was that dad had retired ten years earlier after a successful career. That success had put both my sibling and I through private school and uni, and he and Mum had always seemed on an even keel financially and still occupied a large family home. They'd recently sold a holiday home and they'd enjoyed many extensive and expensive holidays around the globe. Things began slowly unraveling as my mum's health deteriorated. Now, perhaps the shock and awful reality of mum's illness meant they couldn't keep up a

pretense any longer, but my sibling and I had to lend them money for boiler repairs and a new washing machine, something that was so unusual and unexpected. Things came to a head when I found mum crying in the kitchen in 2018, as they couldn't afford to put petrol in the car to get to her next chemo appointment. And I decided we needed to understand what was happening had they been the victims of fraud or a scam.

My brother and I could afford to help out financially if necessary, but my husband and I were concerned they were possible victims of fraud. What then resulted was the most excruciating conversation of my life with me taking the lead. The background to this is that as a family money was just not discussed, not unusual for the time. I just had no idea what their income was. All I know is that I'd always instinctively know my dad was supposedly bad with money

and mum had managed the bills. Well, the awful reality was they'd spent everything. And when I say that, I mean everything plus plus plus. They'd taken all the equity from the house. Despite signing paperwork, I later saw that had declared they discussed this decision with their children, but they hadn't. They'd spent every penny they'd got plus the money from the holiday home that was sold. They'd racked up huge credit card bills, overdrafts and were so in debt to the bank and the credit card companies

that despite having what should have been a reasonable income from private and state pensions they had to spend virtually every penny they had coming in servicing their debts. They were close to bankruptcy. I mean this she she asks are we alone other other families like this? Do you want to just go on with with what then ensued after that? And we're making no judgment here at all we need to be absolutely certain of that. Absolutely so the correspondent goes on to say, to be so irresponsible and to expect your children to pick up the pieces is bad enough.

But the conversation we had with mum crying on the sofa and my brother and I reeling from the news took an even more dreadful turn as my dad was almost boasting about the amount of money. He thought it was over a million pounds apparently that they'd spent on first-class flights, hotels, luxury cruises. There was no shred of remorse. It was truly hideous. The impact of this revelation was that the last months of my mum's life were tainted with this knowledge and that she had been complicit in his behaviour. I'm not naive and I'm well aware that mum knew all of the issues they had. There is no way that she didn't, but I still loved her deeply and her death was truly awful. After Mum's death my dad seemed to lose some of the arrogance and conceit he displayed when the

truth around their financial situation was revealed and I was given full disclosure of the income and debts etc. In truth he had little choice as without the income from mum's pension he simply couldn't go on with his head in the sand. So I helped him to clear and sell the family home within weeks of mum's death so that the debts could be cleared and he was then able to live the rest of his life in relative comfort. And our correspondent goes on to say, not surprisingly my relationship with my dad was very different after these events. He was still my dad and we'd both lost my mum and were both grieving terribly,

but it was forever changed. Dad died at the start of this year, I miss him still, but I'm angry that my memories of him and mum and the last months I spent with them are clouded by the money issues that they brought upon themselves. I had a wonderful childhood and despite what you read here both mum and dad were loving, generous, kind and supportive parents but I can't ignore the recklessness and selfishness they displayed later on in retirement." So our correspondent would like to put this out to the Jane and Fee collective and asking if there have been any similar experiences and essentially how to move on from this because that is a dead weight of memory isn't it? It is a real yoke that would hang around every single happy memory that you have.

She says they were good parents. But to be so let down by your parents so late in their life is really difficult Jane isn't it? I think all of us with elderly, fortunate enough to have elderly parents, I think it's a really interesting, it's always a moral question, how much do you need to know, how much do you deserve to know about their state, the state of their finances, whether they're okay, what money they're spending and I, you know, I am very alert to the possibility that my parents are vulnerable to scams. They both go online. So in a way that makes you vulnerable.

If you're an older person and you are able to go online, you can use the tech because it's wonderful and it keeps you in contact with people and it's fabulous. When it works, it can also make you very vulnerable to being got at by those nasty people. But I know this is a slightly different issue. Should we all as adult children make it our business to know what's going on in our older parents' finances? And if so, how do you... If you're not from the kind of family that routinely talks about money, and lots of families don't,

how do you start that conversation? Well, I don't know, but I think what struck me about our correspondence situation is just the, I mean, there is a level of duplicity from the parents to still be living a lifestyle that they couldn't afford and not telling their children that they've taken all the equity out of the house. When you know, there is a form that you have to sign saying I've talked this through with the beneficiaries of my estate so actually that's a lie I mean it is a lie so I think this is all so complicated and I really really feel for you because you

got to try and get back to a place where you can remember them for the kind and generous and supportive parents they were without the disappointment that they then laid at your door. So we punt it out to our beautiful and brilliant hive and people will have thoughts about it. And quite often, don't you think Jane, that our listeners are so deliciously honest as well? Sometimes when you and I are just trying very hard to be, you know, our best compassionate selves and a listener will come in and say stuff that love that sounded dreadful and I think maybe this is an occasion where... We do get that occasion, yes.

Yeah, right, people might say that. So, Jane and Fiat Times. Radio is the email address. We can keep all of your correspondents anonymous if that's what you would like and we send lots of love to our correspondent in this case, because I think also sometimes, Jane, it's one thing to send a big email about your personal circumstances off to a podcast. I think sometimes when you hear it read out, you might feel quite shaky in the moment. But don't worry about it.

We really appreciate that you need a bit of help on this and our listeners are honest but they are kind people too, but you know that. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces like biking through America's oldest National Park, Rock Creek Park. Or

you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf. The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast we're chatting to the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash WDC. We should all know who Caspar Lee is because he was one of the first to make it big on YouTube. He had more hits on his YouTube channel than viewers of our terrestrial stars like Michael

McIntire, Alan Carr, Miranda Hart and Rob Brydon put together. He started out in 2011, essentially becoming a professional teenager, detailing his life with humour and self-deprecation and gaining millions of subscribers along the way, sometimes with his co-pilot Joe Sugg. And by the time he was 20, he had written a book and starred in several films, but then he changed tack. And we now find him in his thirties as a tech investor and businessman, co-founder of influencer.com, does what it says on the tin, a marketing agency that helps brands work with online creators ethically. He says he's also got business

interests in talent management, student accommodation and he's a venture capitalist. How does that make us feel, Jane? Just tired. And angry. Slightly resentful. So it has been a remarkable journey and we say a very warm welcome to Old Fashioned Times Radio, Caspar. How are you? I'm great. I actually can't remember making any of those

clips that you played before the start. So it's almost like I'm listening to another person from a different dimension. And is that because you were so young at the time, because you made so much stuff, because you want to just forget about it? I've got a terrible memory, so I think that might be part of it. I think, yeah, we made a lot of stuff. And I haven't uploaded in five years and so yeah, jokes aside like I'm so busy doing so many

things sometimes that I struggle to take time out to go back and remember and reminisce in those times. Is that quite a helpful thing to be able to do because an awful lot of people who put a lot of stuff of their early lives up online, do you come to regret giving everybody so much access to their younger selves? Yeah, I wouldn't actually be able to, well, I maybe could if I spent hours and hours and hours to go through absolutely everything I've ever said.

I would struggle to actually be able to tell if I said something I would no longer agree with today. And I think that doesn't just go for YouTubers. I think all young people now have a voice with social media. And if I had access to that at 13, I think I would have regretted many of the things I said. So I was lucky enough to start when I was 16 and to kind of be intentional about it.

And I knew within a couple of years that this was gonna potentially be a career. And I tried my best to not say anything I would go on to regret, but I'm sure if I trolled through everything or someone does that one day with AI, which is probably quite scary to think about, they might find something

I don't really agree with anymore. But yeah, I tried my best not to get into too many controversies. Did you know quite how successful you were becoming? Was it easy to tell? I was surrounded by other creators so they were also becoming successful and some of them were becoming even more kind of successful in quotation marks and yeah so I guess because of that I never saw myself as as someone who was too successful because I think you compare

yourself to other people and I was like okay I'm in kind of middle of the pack here it's going well but in hindsight looking back seeing the people I was able to make videos with and seeing actually just as you spoke about some of the numbers It's hard to believe that like younger me was doing that Yeah Who were some of the people that you got to appear on videos with so I can't go five minutes without Name-dropping every single guest I ever had I Love talking about someone like Ed Sheeran who came to my apartment at one point to make a video with me

Or Kevin Hart or The Rock or... I even got to work with Her Majesty the Queen, she didn't do a video with me but I got to meet her twice Really? Yeah because I was part of the Queen's Young Leaders which was this organization that she had spearheaded and it was kind of weird, I had this situation where I was sitting behind her for like 40 minutes and I was like I hope I've been vetted properly because I'm way too close to the queen right now I can literally... You can reach out and touch her. Let's not go there.

I was like how detailed should I get here? Oh it would be so tempting to do that wouldn't it? Wow. So what about the decision then to stop creating content, to stop being in front of the camera? You said it was a very deliberate one, but why did it stop making you happy? You know, I always loved editing videos. What I did find quite difficult was coming up with new ideas and also the treadmill of it all. And so I got to a stage where it was everything I ever dreamed of, but a new opportunity had arised and that was a business I'd co-founded called Influencer.com.

We'd started working with many brands and creators to help them work together. And we just saw advertising in general going in that direction. And I thought if I wanted to continue to do YouTube very well, I had to give it all of my focus, but I wanted to try this new thing. So in hindsight it felt very intentional but at the time I had this kind of opportunity to jump into another stage of life which I'm really happy I did and keep YouTube as a really happy

happy memory in my life. Do you think that people can age gracefully in modern times on social media? When I was younger I didn't think it would be something that I could still do as I aged, but actually now seeing how I've grown up watching creators and seeing how those around me have, I believe that creators will age gracefully. I think it will maybe be hard for some of them who are doing well when they're young,

if they're making a particular type of content, to bring that with them but if they can transition into content that other people enjoy as they get older then a hundred percent because social media in general is just the new redistribution of media and media is always allowed for for older creators. Yeah I wonder about that Caspar I mean I admire your optimism for that but actually I think that old media has been quite a cruel place for older people. I think youth has really sung and it's shone and it's been celebrated.

And I suppose I've thought, well, maybe social media ends up being, on YouTube in particular, kinder to older people because you find your audience. And actually the audience that doesn't want to watch you simply doesn't watch you. It doesn't get involved and complain about you. It just moves on and and complain about you. It just moves on and finds what it wants. Actually, that's a really good point. And I think that's because it's democratized reach.

And so there's no gatekeeper telling you if you can make a show, you can go out and make that show. And there are audiences that wanted and maybe those were overlooked by traditional media. So that's a very good point. Yeah. And let's talk about some of the things you do then. You mentioned influencer.com and I was intrigued to read that you want to be a very ethical Marketing brand global hookup agency, whatever it is. However, it is that you just I've got it wrong again

It never helps me and but how do you what do you mean by ethical? Do you mean that you wouldn't take on somebody who was, say, promoting anti-vax theories or something like that? How do you make an influencer an ethical thing? So, we work with brands at Influencer.com and most of the brands don't want to be working with people who are going to cause massive backlash against their brands. And so by nature of doing a brand deal online, you're usually working with creators who by

society and the zeitgeist today are again inverted commas ethical. And so yeah, that's, you know, there's so many different kinds of creators in the world, but the ones who do brand deals are the ones who usually aren't saying something too controversial in their day-to-day. The ones who do more controversial content are usually doing more subscription based content for a smaller audience who is paying them in another way. Do you worry about the amount of disinformation that is now promoted online? And I know that might sound like a pretty basic question. So the qualifying part

of the question is, I think people of our generation, Jane and I are definitely the generation above you, we're so horrified that some stuff can be out there that hasn't been checked by two sources, that doesn't have any you know detail attached to it but I wonder whether actually your generation might be cannier or do you think because you've never been exposed to a world that's checked its sources it's all just going to fall apart? I think there's people in our generation who are tricked all the time by misinformation and I think there's ones who our generation who are tricked all the time by misinformation, and I think there's ones who aren't. I just think it really depends. Again, it's like your question

earlier, like, you know, how do you work with ethical or non-ethical creators? There's so many different types of people out there in the world, and the problem is I can see a piece of content, and I usually will try and verify it, but I will have a friend who might show me something they found on Instagram And there's you know, it's a big claim that has just been made and there's no source and I'm just like is that also Yeah, is that really have you checked anywhere else and they're just like well, it says it's real So what's gonna happen to all of us? It's uh, it's kind of scary in that regard. I I hope It's kind of scary in that regard. I hope that these things kind of the pendulum can swing back and forth and people when they get pushed too far, they can realize that they need to try and verify things more. But it can also be used as an excuse by bad actors who say, oh, yeah, just because they said it, that doesn't mean it's true. And so for us to say not everything you read online is true can also have a negative effect when something is true and someone's saying it's not. So I do think, I mean, I do think there

is a world where AI can help to look into sources and try and give you like perplexity for example is something I use when there's a big story coming out and it can show you for all those... What's that? That's an AI... Perplexity? Yeah. you for all those perplexity. Yeah. And it's basically an AI tool that goes really well into many sources and tries to show you where that information is coming from rather than just feeding you the information without showing you. Okay, we should definitely get on it Jane, shouldn't we? Do you feel the generation gap

when you're in business because you're incredibly successful? I imagine most rooms that you enter, you're the top dog in the room. What does that do to your perception of the generation above you? You think we're all dinosaurs? Not at all. You know, as I get older, you know, I'm 31 now and I've been doing this for a long time. I realized that I feel exactly the same in many ways as I did before. And I think, you know, just being curious, being willing to take risks and so on is kind of something that people associate

with younger people and that's why they're like the great entrepreneurs. And that's why VCs all try and surround them because they're like, you're gonna be the age group that goes on to start businesses. But actually there's been businesses started by all sorts of people at all sorts of points in their in their life. And I actually, you know, I had the kind of the reverse of maybe what some people think, you know, when I was younger, I had a lot

of imposter syndrome going into these rooms with older people. And I've kind of over the last 10 years become not the oldest, kind of a mid-level kind of age in the working environment and it's it's it's been fascinating to see that and being going like hey actually I don't know everything just because I'm slightly older doesn't mean I know everything and I think it's kind of the same on both sides. Yeah are you happy to employ people who are much much older than you? Of course we try very to. I will say they're sometimes more expensive to employ because they've got a lot of experience. Well, you should be happy to pay for experience.

Exactly, we've got some incredibly experienced people who I work with every single day and it's really great to learn from them. Yeah, I do think that, and forgive the gender prejudice here, if a couple of middle-aged women had been more involved in setting up social media empires things would have been an awful lot better. I think the simple idea that you were creating things where popularity was what counted, any mum who's had to deal with the fallout of a popularity contest in the playground will tell you it's a really bad idea. Would you agree with me Jane Darvey? I'm slightly, it's lovely to have Caspar in the room,

but memories are coming back to me, and this might not have been you, but what was, do you remember the Tin Can Challenge? No. Maybe it wasn't you. Maybe it was Joe Sugg and somebody else. Okay, yeah. I may have done it, but I-

Sorry, I was listening to your question. Yeah. I'm talking to my colleague here. But I'm listening to Caspar, it's all coming back to my colleague here. But I'm listening to Casper. It's all coming back to me that when I as a parent, my children were in their early teens, they started watching videos of the tin can challenge really stuck with me because it was you just take all the labels off a load of cans and they'd have to eat whatever was inside the tins.

That was the first bit of content in speech marks. I was shown by my offspring and I was horr first bit of content in speech marks I was shown by my offspring and I was horrified and I just thought this cannot, this won't take off. It's absolutely gibberish. Why aren't they listening to the radio like I did when I was their age? But amazingly Caspar it has. Sorry that's just my monologue. No, I would love to. I want to go back and watch that video. I'm not sure it was you, but it was somebody. It's definitely not ringing any bells. But as I said, I probably wouldn't, even if I

did it two or three weeks ago, I probably wouldn't remember. Some of the pranks on YouTube and other platforms have proved to be unbelievably dangerous. Let's just acknowledge that. And let's take that into a question about online safety. I'm not expecting you to know the intricacies of the Online Safety Act, but do you think that any government can really successfully legislate against the perils of the internet? So many people have pointed out already that the big problem with the Online Safety Act is you can get a VPN if you want to get around the age restrictions that that act is imposing on sites. Simple. Within two seconds you've completely undermined the bill.

Yeah, as you say, I looked at the App Store recently, as I try and do every now and then, to find out what do people download these days? And I saw the top 10 apps, five of them were VPNs. So that means a lot of people are doing that. That doesn't mean everyone's going to do it. And so it may be able to prevent this. The Act may be able to present prevent a percentage of of people who shouldn't be accessing stuff, accessing it. But as as as you point out, people can find ways around the law,

especially online where you know there's VPNs and so on. So ultimately will it only all get better if it's the companies themselves who decide to make it better and what's in it for them? They're making millions and squillions of pounds why would they change? Yeah it depends on what part of the act that they're trying to do. And I think, yeah, it's a very important government that is there and exists to help represent the people. And as platforms become very powerful, they need to work with governments within certain countries to do that. But in terms of this act, what sometimes gets tough is when there's not all governments in the world doing the same thing at the same time and you can kind of as a person literally transport yourself to another country. And that can also be a good thing. VPNs can be good in places where governments are tyrannical and they're over-censoring and you want to have access to this. I just want to bring you the news that AI says that you've never done the Tinkan challenge. Oh, thank God.

It's all right, other people have. No misinformation from me on this podcast. Or me on this occasion. Thank you. I know that you've spoken before about your Tourette syndrome so I hope you won't mind a couple of questions on that. It's a syndrome isn't it that's so often portrayed in a very extreme way. People immediately associate that with someone who can't stop swearing or you know can't stop the the tics. How does yours manifest itself and when did you know that you had it? Yeah so when when I was six years old I was watching TV with my sister and I started making these noises and she got really angry with me and told me to leave the room and I went to my dad and I told him about this and he kind of said oh oh, I had something similar, but he didn't actually get properly diagnosed. He just saw the same thing in me that he saw in himself growing up. And for the next kind of 10 years, it just got worse and worse.

And it was mostly physical twitches and so on, but there were, you know, there was verbal and as you say in the media, it kind of comes across as a swearing syndrome. But yeah, for me, it wasn't. And then as I got older and I got through puberty and adolescence, it seemed to improve. It's something I work on, it's something I take medication for. And when I'm in a very stressful environment where I don't want to do it, that's when it happens.

But when I'm obsessed with something and I'm in flow, that's when it doesn't. And I really think that's why I started YouTube, because I could edit, I could be on camera in my own room. I wasn't in a high stress situation and I was obsessed with it. And that's why I loved it so much. You've also talked about social anxiety and certainly feeling that during the pandemic. I think it is always helpful to hear how people cope with that. So how do you? Yeah, I don't know if this happened to any of you or your listeners but during lockdown

because we were isolated and then we came out of it I just started having this social anxiety where I didn't even want to get into a car with my own now wife, who was my girlfriend at the time, because I thought I was going to have a panic attack. And I did reach out and got help and spoke to someone. And over time, I started doing the things I was scared of very slowly and in a controlled way as to not completely overwhelm myself but as I started overcoming those things bit by bit it improved but even today there'll be times where I get super nervous or anxious about situations but I just think kind of by overcoming that fear it helped me personally. Yeah and you are absolute proof that you can have a

hugely successful and actually public facing career with those kind of challenges and still hopefully, I hope you get to enjoy all of that. Can we run some figures past you before you go Casper? Right, I'm going to tell you so... I'm not looking forward to this. We've been doing a podcast together since 2017. The total downloads for our podcast and obviously for us we're hugely proud of this, really proud of this, but we need your perspective. Brace yourself Casper. You just got to be really honest and let us know in what ballpark you would regard our success. So our total streams, our total downloads

are, I've forgotten the figure now, 52.5 million is that all right how many years are we talking well we used to do I mean that's not a good start we've only been here no we've been here for four years we're at the BBC for four years but we only did one a week at the BBC I mean it's huge but but what I say when it comes to numbers it's it's not how many are listening or watching it, it's who is listening and watching and reaching a particular you know interest group can be way you know more valuable to a brand or even more valuable to you as a creator than just going completely broad and doing the tin can challenge.

Which you didn't do Caspar. So most of our listeners are middle-aged women. So is that a good thing? Seems to be, you know, the high net worth group of people sometimes, as I heard earlier. Yeah, brilliant. I think that was a yes. You know, the very experienced people who I'd love to hire at the business. Okay, you're saying all the right things now, Casper. Thank you very much.

Casper Lee, and we all just need to listen to our young compatriots, don't we, at the moment. Because when we have conversations about the online safety bill, when we have conversations about social media, when we have conversations about screens, there is something in all of us that is a little bit naturally resistant to it all because it wasn't there when we were young.

And Casper Lee, it's just his entire life has been with screens and he's done amazing things with it. So I feel a little optimism whenever I hear from somebody who's got through it all. They've got lots to tell us about it. We have, we both acknowledge we have a lot to learn. Yes. Help us. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one and only. Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a hundred free things

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