Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Nothing the youths enjoy more than a middle-aged woman caked in mud

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

It’s Monday, which means you can see Jane’s clean shirt before she pours ketchup all over herself… You can watch this episode on our YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi In today’s episode, Jane and Fi address lady cars, mega-wealth, the buttocks of Samuel Pepys, gluten-free wafers, lattes that make you fart, and the different ways to make sure you've got all 1000 pieces of your jigsaw puzzle. The book recommended today is London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe. Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Look, let's get going. We can't put it off any longer. Welcome to Offair with Jane and Fee, brand new week. And you are possibly listening to this, but you may be watching it in visualised form on YouTube. So we are visualised on a Monday from here to eternity. And I don't know, does it alter the way that you think about coming into work on a Monday?

I try not to have a stain on my top layer. Yes. It's not always possible. but I am conscious of it. I mean, by the way, as soon as this is over, you will have stains everywhere. I pour ketchup all over myself just by way of celebration. But no, I like to start in relatively pristine condition.

Okay. From a low base. You know, that's about as much as I can do. And we do go into makeup, let's not deny it. But the blokes do as well, don't they? Well, otherwise we'd be very shiny. Just be shiny. We've been sharing some space with some very testosteroney chaps

and in fairness a chapess about to do a football podcast in another part of the building. They were deep in the weeds of research for that, weren't there? I mean, I love football, as regular listeners will know, but I couldn't spend too much time in the weeds of possession. Let's not go there. And also because we inherit the studio from a podcast all about sport and I don't want the vibes to be damaging to us. So I think we should.

just ingest all of that testosterone, all of that sport. And it might just power us through, Jane. Yeah, it might. Yeah. In a way that we, as yet, don't realize. Blessed of the listeners, this one's about cleaning products. Oh, we're back on safe territory. Thank heavens for that.

We've got a bit of religion in today's podcast, though. We have got some religion. Yes, we have got some religion. And I've brought with me, it's a takeaway, isn't it? That's what you call it. It's not really. It's the order of service from a church service that I went to this week. But we'll get to that later.

If at all, I might just leave it here. Real life action, it fell onto the floor there, listeners. The Lord does not want to be in this podcast. Here's hoping, says Carrie, I wanted to send a heartfelt thank you to the fabulous person who asked for yet another reminder of the M&S product for cleaning floors. Now, this has taken off in a way that we could never possibly have imagined. People have sent us pictures of empty shelves where the green tea and burgomat, M&S, disinfectant used to be in M&S's far and wide.

And we have cleared out the stock in many a market town. But still M&S haven't been in touch with us. I mean, we're doing all of the heavy lifting. We're doing all of the hard work. Literally, all of you lovely listeners are doing all of the hard work. We're not getting any freebies, which we would share around, wouldn't we? Almost certainly, yeah. Yes, we definitely would.

Having heard on several occasions no judgment about the sheer joy that this product could bring to cleaning us, I sent my husband off to buy some. Do you think this is the beginning of the disaster that entailed? Why, did he not, he didn't get the right product, did he? He didn't. No. After all of the adulation I too wanted in, there was only one problem I couldn't quite remember which product it was. So I asked Google, the AI generated overview assured me that it was the Italian lemon and

rosemary version of the spray. There's evidence there, Jane, of how AI is affecting us badly. Really? Well, it's wrongly scraped our podcast. It has. It's got it wrong, everybody. And just hold on to that thought when people are trying to sell you the new technology. I should just have emailed to ask you myself, says Kerry.

After all, I've been searching for a reason to do so for months. You don't need a reason, do you? No. No, you don't. When I finally got my hands on said spray, anticipating the rapture I was about to experience, I confess to being a bit disappointed. Even so I persevered needlessly cleaning every surface in the hope that at some point I'd understand what all of the excitement has been about.

Kerry, you're very, very dedicated. Sadly, I never did, so I'm sure you will both appreciate that I was very happy indeed when another dear listener email to ask about this product because now I have the right one. As a very busy year six teacher, forward slash senior leader in a small village primary school, we wear many hats and work long hours,

and a dedicated parent of two of my own children, cleaning is not something I relish spending time on now that I finally have my hands on, the green tea and bergamot, I can tell you with confidence that I won't resent having to do it quite so much. The fragrance is divine. It really must be because I got up half an hour earlier today. I'm usually up at 5.30 a.m.

Just to clean the tiles in the lobby again. You've got it bad. But I know what you mean. I've done extra mopping because it just smells really nice. I mean, guilty because I did some yesterday. It's just bizarre. What is it about that scent? What is it?

Oh, we should say we are going to interview something. about smells. Oh, Susie Nightingale. Yes. So she's coming in tomorrow. We're going to interview her tomorrow and then it's a special Friday edition. Because so many people have emailed about smells, whether they're getting stronger, more pungent, more revolting in some cases. But whoever's in charge of the perfumery department in the M&S disinfectant brigade needs a, well, to be at least, the very least, made a dame. Very much so. Because they are, their nose is phenomenal. But it's a shame that obviously nobody who runs M&S actually listens. to this podcast. Well, we're going to keep mentioning them until they finally. So any questions that

you've got about your olifactory sense, then get that email in today. Yeah. Because Susie's coming in tomorrow. I'm having coffee now. Yes, you have. Well, I was just about to say, it's unfortunate. I'm going to bring you back into the conversation. But because you gave me a book last week, London Falling. Oh, yes. Right. Now, it was, can I, I, I've tried to memorize the name of the author. It's ridiculous. Patrick. Radden, Keith. Okay. And he is the author of an amazing other book called Empire of Pain about the Sacklers. Yes.

That's right, isn't it? About painkillers and opioids and addiction and amazing and I must read that as well. Why is that such a good book, London Falling? I'm halfway through it. I haven't finished. Okay.

I just think it's incredible and it will lead to something about a smell in a moment, but I just want you to. Tell me why the book's so good. So I found the book remarkable because it reads like a novel, but it is fact.

And he introduces every case character in this really sad journey of a 19-year-old boy to a balcony in a very expensive apartment block above the Thames, you know, the night that he ends his life. Every character who Zach meets along the way is introduced to you in a Dickensian character way. I think you're right. That's the genius of it, isn't it? So you start to know these people who've played a part in Zach's journey and the way that Patrick writes is so engaging. The book has the same sense of movement as a thriller does. And I say that very carefully because this is about a real life, a young man who you're so rooting for in the book and his family, you're so rooting for his life

not to have the end that it had, but you know that it does because, you know, that's told to you at the beginning. But I think it's just an incredibly clever depiction of a city. And in a very Dickensian way as well, it's about the darkness that flows underneath the money that makes the city shine. And I can't remember ever having read a book like that about London in modern times. I think that's a brilliant description of it actually. I hadn't thought about it quite in those terms, but you're completely right. Yeah, London is a brilliant place and a, a shimmering place and a shiny place, but it has some very murky undercurrents. There's an underbelly, a churning underbelly of poor behaviour and far, far worse than that.

And we don't notice most of the time, do we? Because we don't have to. We're fortunate people, so we don't really notice. We don't have to? And also, don't you think that it reveals something very, really, really unpleasant about our celebration. about our celebration of wealth, which doesn't ask nearly enough questions, Jane. Most of the time, it's just better not to ask, isn't it?

Yep. And I know it may sound a bit naive, but, you know, if somebody zooms past me or glides past me, because it's 20 mile an hour zone in central London now, in a Bentley, I still look at them and think, oh, you've done really well in your life,

you know, how great. And I don't want that life, so I'm not envious of it at all. But I don't automatically think you're a criminal who's probably borderline killed somebody. You know, I don't have that media. Not everybody with one of those cars is in that category. No, they're not. But I still think we don't question the enormous wealth is in our city enough.

It's too tricksy. You would never sleep at night, would you? I mean, I'm having trouble at the moment. I'm reading this book. What I really wanted to say was the first chapter is about the river, is about the Thames. and this is a very tenuous connection, but yesterday I was out for a walk with a mate and we, ill-advisedly, on it was a beautiful spring day,

went down to the shore in east-west Kensington of the ever-flowing River Thames, and I fell over, which, of course, I do on a semi-regular basis. But yesterday I slipped over in the mud, appropriately on a slipway. And there are photographs. show you later if you pay me let's say 100 quid in cash in a brown envelope did you go arse down or did you go flat of your face i fell sort of sideways onto the slip onto the slip

way was it muddy it's richly enjoyed by a small crowd of mudlarkers and some youths and um because there's nothing youths enjoy more on a Sunday morning than the sight of a middle-aged woman covered in all seriously do you think that you should get your balance no I well I see when I do It's a tell-tale sign. When I'm at Pilates, I'm brilliant. I'm brilliant at balance. But you're probably strapped to a machine, aren't you? I'm standing on the thing with my foot in and what's it,

and then I put my hands out, and I can stay upright for minutes. I wasn't wearing good grip. I was wearing trainers. Well, they should give you a little bit of grip. Did anybody else in your party slip? No. That was the problem. But then I had to, the really awful thing, and in many ways it's a great thing,

I then had to walk home. But because it's London, People just don't, they wouldn't comment. So I was caked in mud. But as you know, you can walk semi-naked through the streets of London by a lot. You can walk through the streets of London dressed as a zebra. I mean, and because everybody else is so wrapped up in themselves and just so dignified, they would never dream of paying you the attention they believe you need.

And also, I mean, that's the nice interpretation of it. The not so nice interpretation is that people just don't really give a toss. Just like there's a middle-aged woman over there who's clearly taken a little bit of a tumble and she's got mud all the way up her ass I don't care. It's getting on my day. My point is back briefly to smells.

By the way, London falling, get hold of that book if you can. Listen to it, read it. And we have asked to interview. Have we? Patrick. But I think he's over in New York. I don't know why I've said it like that. No, okay. For visualization purposes.

Yeah. New York. Yes. And I think we are just trying quite hard. to track down an opportunity to use the time difference wisely. All right. So hopefully we'll get them on at some point. We'll keep on that because it's an amazing book.

The smell of the mud, I can still smell it. And it made me think again of that book. Because you realise how many centuries of London history have I splattered all over my, frankly, as I walked home, it was caking in my buttock area. So that might have been the caking of mud. formed in two centuries ago. Samuel Pepys could have enjoyed that mud.

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you mentioned Samuel Peep. Oh, what are you bringing in? I'm bringing in this. Wonderful. It's as if we thought about the podcast, but we genuinely haven't. A wide-ranging conversation. So I went back to St. Bride's Church to pick up my reading glasses,

and I just want to say an enormous thank you to the Reverend Alison Joyce, Dr. Alison Joyce, who is the rector there for keeping such an eye on my glasses. and actually taking them around to various functions and photographing them. I felt that her last brilliantly written email was a cry for help. I mean, she couldn't have made any. You please come and collect these bloody glasses. I'm sick of them. Anyway, you were...

So I went to the choral Eucharist on Sunday because I was interested to go, actually. And some brides have got the most unbelievably brilliant and very simple exhibition in the crypt about the history of the church. which Alison has been largely responsible for compiling. And if you've got a moment, you find yourself on Fleet Street and the church is open, do pop in and have a look, because it very cleverly draws attention to

and details the arrival of every big newspaper in Fleet Street, along with the history of the church as well. And Samuel Pepys worshipped in the church because his mother was part of the congregation. So if you go and sit on a pew in St. Brides, you may well be sitting where the buttocks of Samuel Pepys once sat. Well, he was not a nice gentleman, was he? No, but I find historical connections like that, Jane.

Just really spine tingling, actually. And there's so much information in the exhibition that I didn't realise. Do you know why Fleet Street turned into the home of newspapers? No. Is it something to do with the River Fleet? No, not at all. It was because Caxton, very sensibly and cannily, put his printing press partway between St. Paul's and Westminster

for that early footfall of people who needed to be promoting one thing or another around these great big institutions. And as soon as he started printing there, obviously other people started printing there. And that was the origin of Fleet Street. So it's little nuggets like that. Yeah, I do love that sort of thing.

Absolutely fascinating. And then details about the plague and the caskets that had to be sealed and the ceiling of tombs underneath the church and just the amount of people who didn't make it through and then the great fire of London and then the bombing as well of St Brides. It's just terrific.

And the church itself is so beautiful and it is the journalist church. So in the corner there are listed the names of all of the journalists who died in recent conflicts you know, just in the name of their work. And actually the very, very longness for journalists who died in the Israel-Gaza conflict is just poignant, Jane, very, very, very, very point. That's really interesting.

I will make a point of trying to go there. Yeah, it was. And the service was great. Was it? Yeah, so I haven't been to church for a very, very long time. Have you not? Nope. And it's one of those weird things, I think, as we were saying before, because I went so many times when I was a very young girl, I can just recite the whole service.

And it's quite good to go back when you're as old as I am. and you actually think, okay, so that's the meaning of this instead of just learning it all by road. So I found that quite interesting. And they've really moved with the times as well. You can ask for a gluten-free wafer. I'm sorry? You can.

And there is a QR code for the collection. So, well done, some brides. Well done, some brides. I can't believe that about the wafer. That's special. I should say one of my offspring claims that she was in a restaurant. Actually, not far from you, not a restaurant, a coffee shop. Yeah.

And a chap came in, a hipster, and asked for a sprout milk latte. So that's happening. That's a real thing. You cannot make milk out of sprouts. Apparently you can. No. I mean, apart from anything else, I'd just be so windy. You would imagine it would be. Okay.

We had a really beautiful email last week, didn't we, from our listener, Sarah, telling us about her son, Theo, and about his death. And Sarah was grateful that we read it out. I mean, you don't need to be grateful, Sarah, but thank you. for writing back again. I failed to mention that Theo was a very much longed for IVF baby, just to add another layer of cruelty to the situation. And I'm currently gearing up for another embryo transfer in a couple of weeks' time.

I will probably and hopefully be white-knuckling it through until the January of 2027, when we may be lucky enough to have a brother or sister for our daughter and Theo. Either way, 2026 will be chalked up as a pretty emotional year in the same. story of my life. Thanks for keeping me company on this particular emotional roller coaster. Well, Sarah, I hope when I gather from the email that you were comforted up to a point by having the email read out and by having Theo discussed and celebrated. So we're so glad that that did offer you some comfort. But, you know, a lot of people are with you, Sarah. We've had a lot of people emailing in to say, I just want to say lots of love to that listener and hope things

go well for her. And Sarah, keep us in touch. We've got absolutely everything cross for you, haven't we? We certainly have. That's so tough. And, you know, you've suffered so much pain. Your whole family has suffered so much pain. And, well, let's just hope everything goes well this time.

Well, of course. And I just admire your bravery because... Yes, to try again. You know that every step of that journey will be accompanied with a sadness, actually. So will he keep in touch with us as well? and we'd love to feel that you're very much part of the off-air family. Audrey's disappointed, and this is my fault, Jane, so hands up, Audrey. I took the time to email the show for the first time at the beginning of the week.

Imagine my delight, my name was mentioned, that delight didn't last long. I can only imagine your hand of the picture I sent and didn't actually read the email, missing the point that I enjoyed the show and other podcasts that had got me through the last year, as my husband died almost a year ago. Audrey had emailed in about ordering a copy of Neville Schultz book and being sent the very, very small book, the tiny vintage edition. Instead, you decided to focus on the packet of fags that I'd used for scale on the small book. Smoking is not something I'm proud of and I'm constantly trying to give up,

but you decided to make me feel like a leper talking about how horrible it is stating the obvious. You also decided to comment on my rings, engagement, wedding and eternity ring. Not particularly nice for you, given the comment. context of my life at the moment. Audrey, I'm really sorry that you felt disappointed by that. It's my fault for talking about the packet of fags as well. And also, quite often, we do lift a piece of an email in order to fit into lots of other things that we're talking about at the time. So I'm really sorry that I didn't read all of it out loud and therefore give everybody the opportunity of the context. And as a smoker myself, for, God, if I'm honest, Jane,

25 years. I know how hard it is to give up. And actually, when people appear to be quite kind of flippant about the bad side of smoking, you are constantly going, yeah, I know. You know, I'm not an idiot. I do know what I'm doing when I smoke. So double bad on that, Audrey. And I hope that you can stay listening to us and that, you know, next time you email in, we'll all get it right. So my bad on that one. Yeah, lots of love to you, Audrey. Don't, don't leave us, you're part of the community. We don't always get things right. And what I will say is that generally speaking, we do acknowledge it when we don't get things right. No, very much so. We try not to glide over the potholes if that's not mixing a metaphor. Potholes, no laughing matter,

as many listeners will know. In fact, the transport secretary was in the news last week when she had herself encountered a pothole. She had to be towed away by the AA. I mean, there's something very beautiful about that. Yeah, because her mini clubman, yes. Watch out. And I wouldn't get a clubman because I'd only get a clubwoman. Okay, very good point. I don't really understand. I don't understand why they still do that. I honestly couldn't have a mini countryman.

Oh, is it a countryman? There's a clubman, countryman. Oh, okay. Gosh, a lot of men in the world of the minis. That's why I just stuck to a cooper. Okay, fair enough. Coopers were barrel makers, weren't they? Do you think that a car manufacturer would sell more cars?

I mean, let's say there was a scoda lady. Lady Fabia, do you think that an awful lot of women... Some reason I thought you were going to say something else. Ladies, go on, yeah. Do I think the women would go? The Fabia is a type of Skoda. Oh, is it? Yes, it's not as big as the Monte Car.

You drive the sort of very much the princess of the Skoda world. But if a car manufacturer did deliberately say this is a lady car, do you think that they'd sell more of it? Or, you know, would you be drawn to it because it described itself as a lady car? I think there's a terrible part of me that kind of might be. So it didn't go very fast. Yeah, I think I'd quite like one too. Didn't cause any problems.

Would I be drawn to a slightly feminine? Yes, why not? That came with some frilly little accoutrements inside. We're hopeless, aren't we? And smelt of, what is it, green tea and bergammonaut? I'll get behind the wheel of that and drive daintily around east-west Kensington, keeping well below the 20 mile an hour speed limit.

I have to say loads of people ignore the 20 mile. I mean, they shouldn't, by the way. And actually, although it is, let's be honest, and we've both come up against this, it can be difficult to stick to 20 miles an hour, can't it? Hugely. I mean, as the speed awareness course kept on telling me, Jane. Yes, indeed.

Only because even applying a gentle pressure on the accelerator. Talk, talk, talk. Here we go. Talk, talk. take us up all this come on let us do a motoring podcast please please let us so just before we leave the car thing if you were going to build a lady car let's have some more suggestions about what we'd need to be in it I'd definitely need some kind of a rage button

oh yes oh god I'd love a rage button yeah wow where instead of instead of the horn honking it would let out a lady sound instead because there's some terrible what would that lady sound be there oh I can't do it now stop it would it would break the sound barrier But it would be the proper menopausal rage, that sound of woman on fire. And I think people would get out of my way. I'm sure they would. We're both quietly a little bit devastated that nobody is emailed to ask us for more on the history of broadcasting.

So if you are moved to email us about that subject, get a wiggle on because we need boosting. We need someone to say, oh, why don't you to write a book about the history of broadcasting? We've had quite a few conversations over, well, there's a chapter in our book about broadcasting. Oh, is there? Yes. Should have expanded on it. How soon you forget. Quite a few conversations over the weekend about Andy Kirchall.

Ah, the late Andy Kirshel. The late Andy Kirshel, yep. And that's a complicated life. Yeah. And, you know, at one point there was a restraining order against him from his wife. And I know that the family situation was obviously, given that incredibly complicated. But there was quite a lot of discussion about how much you then acknowledge that when you are also trying to respect a life that gave you a lot as a listener. So lots of people do want to say, well, he was amazing and his world music shows, introduced people to stuff that they would never have found otherwise.

And then you get to the butt. And I don't know how you feel about that. How, what is polite? When is the requisite amount of time that has to pass before a person's, I don't know, assessed in all their... Yes, the reality class is. What am I trying to say? It's a difficult area of this.

Yeah, because none of us, I mean, as I've just already, I can't believe it was the second time in one podcast. I'm saying that we're not perfect. None of us are perfect. I've got any number of faults. how quickly would I want them to be acknowledged? Not at my funeral. Or maybe that would be exactly the right time.

I don't know. It's difficult, isn't it? It is very difficult. Because he was not in any way to say he wasn't a good broadcaster who did actually go to some really interesting places and bring to the attention of many, many, hundreds of thousands of people the sort of music they would never have heard otherwise. But there is a but.

And it's okay to say that there was a but. Is it okay to say it immediately? I don't know. No, I don't know either. I don't know. I just met a couple of people who were genuinely very flummoxed by what their own emotions should be, you know, whether or not they could still go or, you know, he was a kind of magical influence in my life through the radio, whether you have to stop thinking that completely.

I'm open to suggestions on this topic because like you, I'm not entirely sure. And you and I have both, you know, in the course of our careers, done those shows when somebody important has just died. And, you know, by important, I mean the kind of the Margaret Thatchers and the Ronald Reagan's. And do you say in those moments, do you acknowledge all of the opposition that people like that faced in their lives and recognize the people who definitely believe themselves to have been hurt by those people having power? or do you let it rest for, you know, until the next day's show or the next week's show before really delving into that? I don't know the answer to that one either. It's a very, very hard one.

Mercifully, she is very much still with us, but Miriam Margulies is somebody. Oh, my goodness, good Lord. It's all right. No, she's very much still with it. And the other night I was looking for something to watch. You know, obviously sometimes nothing cries out to be viewed, does it on the telewindow. No, and that's what you alibi is there for. Exactly.

ITV4 where midsummer murders is always I'm deep in version. Always available. But the documentary Miriam Margulies made me me is available now on the I play. Now I do, we both have such a more than a soft spot for Miriam. I love Miriam.

And I will say if you're a bit Marguerle's resistant because of flatulence and things like that, you don't need to worry with this documentary. There's only one fart in it. It's relatively early on. So you could even join a quarter of an hour in and still take pleasure. But, you know, there was one scene in it for me that really did make me cry.

And it's loosely speaking about Miriam trying to make a podcast with an old mucker of hers who's a TV person, can't get any work at the moment in television because it's really, really tough. And he thinks it would be a good idea to try and get Miriam to do a podcast. And he follows her to Australia. And in Australia, Miriam goes to a care home to visit an old school friend. and the lady she visits is now in bed and she can't get out of bed and honestly it's probably a scene that only goes on for about three minutes but in that conversation between Miriam and her old school friend

you can see the connection between them and honestly you can you can see the schoolgirls who existed 65 years ago but are no longer around it is it's really really touching and the lady is so glad that Miriam has taken time out to go and see her. And honestly, I can't stop thinking about it. That little scene is worth watching the whole documentary. She is just a joybringer. Oh, she is a joy bringer. I know that there are other, you know, I know sometimes people say,

oh, she's an attention seeking, blah, blah, blah. I mean, who is? First, she'd be the cost to admit that she is. Yeah, of course. I honestly, do watch that program. But I agree with you. I think her compassion, I mean, she's either, an unbelievable, unbelievably good actor to be able to fake that compassion.

Or she's a woman who is a very good actor because she can tap into a genuine well of compassion. Because when she meets people on her journeys around Australia and all the other places that she's been to, I always remember the young women she met when she was doing a documentary about jails in Texas. Right. And she was just superb at being disarmingly interested. in their lives. And you just think, gosh, she gets something from people because she does have a genuine curiosity.

And I hope, and, you know, I've only met her and interviewed her a couple of times, but I like her more and more, the more that I meet her, I think it is a genuine thing. And she's very good at doing the hamming it up, you know, farting and eating onions on Graham Norton's sofa. But, you know, we're all multitasking our way through the world, darling. I mean, she's probably a complete stranger to that disinfectant

because she just doesn't need to worry about that kind of thing. Well, I would hope that Miriam does have some people to disinfect her floorboards. As this documentary makes clear, she has people. Yes. Yeah. So don't worry about that. But during the doc, she plays the Sydney Opera House. And I mean, some of those anecdotes you and I will be familiar with. But they...

Now, come on, love. I know. It's been ages since I talked about going to GCHQ. So it's actually about time I did it. Got me thoughts on moving walkways? Email in. We all like to send them back out into the world for recognition again. Darren, Darren thinks he saw me.

Thursday afternoon, he says, I was breezing through London Bridge Station. I mean, it's quite a difficult place to breeze through. Fresh off the Euro style from Amsterdam, get you, Darren. I was doing exactly what any right-minded person should be doing, catching up on the podcast. And suddenly, appearing through the frongs of commuters, Like a vision of broadcasting excellence, I saw her. He thinks it was me, but I don't think it was, Darren.

I'm afraid I didn't offer a polite good afternoon. I just squealed. The woman in question, who I'm 99% certain was Jane, just blanked me with a level of professional grace I could only admire in hindsight. Meanwhile, the surrounding commuters looked on in genuine shock. Darren, next time, just if you think it's me, I mean, let's hope it is.

Just come over and speak. Don't squeal. Speak. I'll probably be listening to the archers, but I won't mind being interrupted. Well, actually, I might. It depends. It depends on which scene you're interrupting.

But no, Darren, just come over. Don't make an involuntary noise that will affect other commuters. And also don't be put off by Jane's resting face. Well, no, because that's really unfriendly, but it's the only one I've got. It's not a lot I can do about it. So it will break.

As soon as recognition is established between yourself and defan, that will lift. Yes, no, no, it will. It will. No, but I don't think, I mean, both of us have got quite kind of grumpy resting faces. I don't think we're grumpy. I think we're...

But I think it would just be absolutely bizarre if I tried to, you know, stride around London with a cheesy grin on my face. Well, because as we all know, that's what every man does. Yeah, they always look really cheery. Yeah. Cheer out love might never happen. It just has. In defence of grumpy volunteers comes in from Sean. I felt compelled to speak up in defence of grumpy volunteers after listening. to your conversation today. I've been volunteering at a charity shop for a while now,

and my attitude to donations has changed in that time. Initially, I welcome donations with naively open arms, but I've become increasingly cautious after saying the number of dirty, broken and unsellable items donated by people, sometimes by people who openly lie and state it's all good quality. Oh dear. It costs the charity money to dispose of these items. Sometimes we're inundated with stuff, and we lack the resources and space to accept more. I'm not an assertive person. I don't like having to ask about the nature and quality of items or turning down a donation,

but it is necessary. Some people take offence and flounce out, but most seem to understand the pressures that we face. There's also another email. I might not have printed it out, and my apologies, if I haven't, but somebody who said that quite a lot of stuff comes in and it's dirty, and dirty underwear.

Oh God. Is included in a package of donations. The whole thing is to go straight to landfill. I think that's good. And I'd be grumpy if I was having to sift through all of that. And, Sean, I completely believe you. I mean, sometimes I also think when I see anybody who's put in the open bins in our local Oxfam shop, you don't have to hand it over to a volunteer.

There are bins that you put things in. You know, when people do donate the 1,000 piece jigsaw, and you just think, have you counter that? Because somebody's going to have to before they can put it on sale. You do think it's a pass-ag gift, isn't it? Some volunteer will have to count the pieces. Well, some day, Sean can probably correct him if I'm wrong, but I know that in Oxfam,

they used to pride themselves on never selling a jigsaw that would have pieces missing. And for a while, because I can be just alarmingly stupid sometimes, I thought that meant that a volunteer had to do the jigsaw. Oh, that's sweet. But I would also have thought that. Well, it's not, and I did think it's that good. You see, for all our sharp edges and grumpy faces and judgment,

we are both touchingly naive at time. We've got it in there somewhere. Oh, dear. Anyway, good luck to all you lovely volunteers. You're taking great, great work. Wendy says, lying in bed listening to today's podcast, which is entertaining, I was surprised to hear Fee agree with Jane that neither of them were fond of vests.

Oh, no. I guess people are going to go and look for that. Please check out the YouTube and see. See fee hosting a seminar. Wearing a black vest and black skinny jeans tucked into knee-high boots. I just thought I'd mentioned. It was a while back. Was it?

Yes. And in defence of my binary opinion on vests, I don't mind a vest when you're wearing it as a top. But I thought we were having a conversation about vests worn under things. So that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Okay. Yeah, it was a seminar at the Sheffield documentary festival about the art of listening.

And like I say, it was quite a long time ago. Right. Lots of people write to us with tips to help us through our lives. And if anyone could just recommend ways in which I could stay upright for six weeks in succession, I'd be incredibly grateful. but Jane is writing from Dorset, previously London, to say, I keep my food waste caddy in the cupboard under the sink, and next to it I have a neutradol.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to say this is it advertising. Well, it's a reference, but we're okay. It claims to absorb smells definitely works an absolute treat. I can never smell my caddy. I mean, can I say you run. What a charmed life you live. You run a sophisticated household down there in Dorset. But neutrodol, very good.

Interestingly, I have it, it's not interesting, but I'm going to mention it. I have a neutraldol in my cell. What does it look like? It's one of those sort of modern mysteries. It's just like a jelly. A jelly in a bit of white plastic casing and it just takes in smells. It's science, isn't it? Gosh.

Sometimes my ignorance is a sort of bliss. Sometimes it's just irritating. I also wanted to say that my school memory of chocolate sponge pudding was covered in a chocolate sauce, not pink sauce, as you referenced. The pink sauce was served with vanilla sponge with hundreds and thousands on top. I loved school dinners.

Well, the puddings, really, which might explain why I was put on a diet when I got to secondary school. Oh, Jane, sorry to hear about that. But, yes, puddings in primary school were, on the whole, things of beauty. They were spongy, and they served the custard,

which was definitely in inverted commas. I swear, literally, so you could eat it because the sponge was always so dry. It needed a little bit of liquid help, didn't it? Yeah, it definitely did. And it sort of, but I definitely think we had pink sauce with chocolate sponge. Yeah, no, I recall that too. I don't know why, Jane, you got chocolate sauce.

You must have gone to a very superior primary school. People have got thoughts about brooches. This one comes in from Susie, and she's also got thoughts about pinking shears. I always trim my fringe with pinking shears in between haircuts. Apologetic shout out to Taz, best hairdresser in Lewis. I know I'm never going to get it straight anyway, so I figure that having a little bit of unevenness maybe softens the edges. That's a very good tip.

Look out in Lewis, because I've got a friend who's just moved there and I shall be visiting soon. Excellent. Well, go and say hello to Taz and apologize to him. I also use them for their real purpose of stopping fabric from fraying, i.e. neatening the seams of homemade garments when you don't overlock them. Now, I never understood that. I don't understand why pinking shears would stop. Let's think of a very kind of fraying fabric.

Well, a very kind of loosely woven linen. Why would a pinking shears stop that from fraying? Wouldn't it create more edges to fray? I would have thought so. Yeah. We're exposing our complete lack of expertise in the haberdashery department. Next, brooches, I know who still wears them, wedding registrars like me.

We have to dress quite formally and always wear a jacket so the addition of a brooch cheers up and otherwise potentially rather somber outfit. My brooch today is a dragonfly, but I have a selection of vintage brooches, including birds, a golden black enamel sausage dog, and a bunch of flowers.

Godly toy! They originally had a tiny tag on for 11 shillings and sixpence. I wanted to leave it on, really, but eventually I decided it was a bit too mad hatter, even for me. Photos attached. Well, the brooches look absolutely lovely. Do you have stories, Susie,

from your time as a wedding registrar? I would like to hear them. would very much. Do you ever sense, I mean, can you tell from the demeanour of the people in front of you how long it's going to last? Yes, I thought you're asking me from my varied experience of weddings. There's also apparently been that article in Grazziah saying that the brooch is back. Oh, yes. So, in fact, next time I'm at one of those antiquee type places, I need to actually buy a brooch. So we're on it, aren't we? Yeah, we're absolutely on it. We're absolutely on it. Now, we probably, We need to go upstairs at some stage, don't we?

Can't we do you? Can't we do? The mandelson of fear that is going on at the moment. It's another of those difficult days for our current Prime Minister, Sir Keir Stama. I don't know. Do you think he'll last the week? I think he'll last the week.

I don't know, Jane, but it's another story of... Well, we're back in the weeds of politics, a man having poor judgment about a man. He's had poor judgment about a man. Well, yes. Oh, God, that's... It's absolutely brilliant. I mean...

And Mandelson, you and I both knew. We raised our eyebrows massively at the return of Peter Mandelson. Let's just say his reputation was, I mean, allegedly, blah, blah, let's just stick that in. I mean, the man had more skeletons than a skeleton factory, allegedly. So what I was trying to work out at the weekend in conversation with like-minded people, so, you know, it's a conversation that just gets stuck in its own fishbowl at the moment, isn't it? But what was the value? He was always called Machiavellian and, you know, Prince of the Dark Arts.

And I don't know. I just genuinely don't really know what those dark arts are. So is it as we are now seeing being played out before us at Peter Mandelson's expense, the ability to be a little bit economical with the truth? So if that's what he was celebrated for, and very, very capable of doing, that does seem to be what's bringing about his downfall

and possibly the downfall of other people around him. But it's all a bit weird, Jane. I'd like to see a really clear example somewhere of what he did when he was at his prime that made him so teflon-coated. And so important. And so important that we needed him back. That's what I'd like to see.

A real breakdown of what the project was at the start, how he did it, what the conclusion was. then I'll understand it better. And I'm not trying to be kind of facetious and nippy about it. No. But I genuinely don't understand it. So if you work in PR, if you've got knowledge of the world of the SPAD and the comms advisor,

I'd be genuinely so interested to have that breakdown. And we have mentioned it before, but you and I are both intrigued by, I mean, I think it's fair to say that women can be very hard on other women. I know we can. And, you know, I've certainly been guilty of that. Why don't men ask more difficult questions of other men? what they've done, how they conduct themselves, what they've got in their locker.

They seem so easily impressed by men. Not all men, but lots of men. And they don't ask the difficult stuff. No. It's just weird. So much of the kind of the cliques of power bases around the world seem to be really based on getting together an awful lot of men who are prepared to look the other way.

Yeah. And I'm not sure that that does happen in female circles. I think when you get a power base of women, whether that's in the playground or at work or in a school or whatever it is, I'm not sure that that ability to just ignore really bad male behavior and ignore somebody else's bad sexual behavior, I'm not sure that that's in our mix. Well, I would hope not.

Yeah. There are lots of other things that are in our mix. Oh, yes, what I mean. Yes. Because we're not perfect. You know, and I definitely... I mean, I think it's fair to say. I know women who can be mean about other women than any man will be.

But isn't that part of the whole we're encouraged to be judgmental and frankly to judge other women? So should we be encouraging men to be more judgmental of other men? That's what I mean. That's, yes, I see what you go. Let's get it started. We should also say that later in the week we really do have to go, We've only got the head of science at NASA on again. I know.

Which is brilliant. And she's from Hitchin. From Hitchin. She has been a guest before. I wonder whether she thinks this is a more important... Do you think she thinks we're more important than we actually are? Let's not worry about that. No, let's not worry about that at all.

But we're just really delighted to be able to speak to her again. It'll be fantastic. And do you know what? We must ask her about the politics of the space mission as well. And I'm going to say it's very, very quietly. So he may just have to turn the volume up for people who can't hear us whispering. Trump wasn't all over the space mission at all and it was lovely. Yes.

But why? Because it was America being great again, I mean on an interplanetary scale. But it just wasn't in any of his true social postings. He didn't. He did praise them. He has invited them to the White House. But he wasn't all over it in that kind of... Not in the way you might expect.

Tom Katz spraying that he does wherever he sees an opportunity to make himself great in the reflection of somebody else's great. So I wonder what that was all about, Jane. Well, I'm not sure she'll be able to go into politics. We could certainly ask. Let's ask, yeah. Well, thank you for putting up with this. We really appreciate it.

And thank you for your emails, which have come in over the weekend on many varied topics. We'll have more tomorrow. We will. So if you sent something over the weekend and you didn't hear it aired today, we're now doing a much better job, aren't we, of keeping things back until later in the week.

I think so, yeah. Okay, well, Eva's. Goodbye for now. Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee.

Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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