Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Oaky Chardonnay, Marlboro lights and regret (with Dr. Maggie Aderin-Pocock)

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

If you're sensitive to premature Christmas content then avert your eyes now... Jane and Fi are a bit perturbed by the politics of Father Christmas impersonators, there's more talk of men at dos and Fi has questions about quilting groups. Plus, space scientist Dr Maggie Aderin-Pocock joins Jane and Fi to discuss her new book 'The Story of the Solar System'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So didn't the ad have a horse or some kind of a minotaur or some pony? Yes, a tiny little pony. A rather frisky little pony, which is how I saw myself in my baby sham swigging days. Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, we see someone struggling with addiction. Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help or get help at Canada.ca slash ease the burden.

A message from the government of Canada. This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line. Have you ever thought of taking a cruise? Well, it's crossed my mind. Tell me a bit more about it. Well, with Norwegian Cruise Line you can travel to iconic locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go-local shore excursions as well as an immersive programme of on-board experiences.

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Yeah, be careful what you wish for. Jane's come as a lumberjack. Well, I have, and do you know why? It's because I've had a rural weekend out in the Peak District. I was recommending it to young Eve. I think she could do some good walks out there. She's young and vital, so she'll find it quite easy. She went to some very odd kind of shock fest, weird thing.

What did you call it? Tully's Farm. Tully's Farm, and that's like a thing that if we say that most other people will know what we're talking about. In the south. It's in the south. It sounds terrible. It's spooky. Okay so it's a kind of it's a spooky fest place. Well we're heading towards spooky fest time. Well we're heading towards winter wonderland time aren't we and I wonder which city will be providing us with the opportunity to do a new story about shit Santas this year.

Shit Santas. And also the people who are prepared to be a shit Santa. There is only one father Christmas fee. And only his mate's husband. No. But some... No. But no, he lives in Lapland.

Okay, but you do continually. And I've managed to resist this Eve, so don't fall for it this year. You do want us to interview your friend's husband, who is one of the South's finest. Santa impersonators, because you're right, there is only one Santa. Yeah, he's, I would go so far as to say, he's a friend of mine, I should say. He's not just my friend's husband, he's London's leading Santa. Yeah, and impersonator. Impersonator, well I think, well this year should we?

I don't think he'll be able to resist. Okay. Yeah, he might need paying, but hey, he's a busy man, he does all the best parties. Well, we'll probably have to book him in quite soon. As we know, the real Santa is too busy in his toy shop. Of course. Well, is he in a toy shop? Yes! Is he?

Yes! I've completely forgotten the legend. It's been so Disney-fied in my mind. I thought he was making all the little presents himself, but he's just buying them. Oh, sorry. As a shop, didn't I? I meant workshop. In a workshop. Workshop. Sorry. You see that? Yeah, like you shopped didn't I? Yeah. I meant workshop. In a workshop. Workshop, sorry you see that? Yeah like you I've been horribly commercialised. Well I mean they'd be doing it online now wouldn't they anyway so. You must have the biggest

online shopping bill of anyone in the world. And the most enormous safe place. Dave the Minion has been in touch, I'm still catching up with the pod after being away and listen to 328 from the 2nd of October this morning. That's a lot isn't it? Julia's problems with nightmares and insomnia and for those of you who are listening to something in the background, it leads me to recommend the 8 hour album titled Sleep by the composer Max Richter. Written exactly for this job, as you listen the rhythms naturally start to regulate your breathing and heart rate And you drift off into a wonderful night's sleep

Your following conversation about being able to listen to your own entertainment at work being a recent thing made me realize That I've been openly listening to my mp3 At work slash iPod at work for as long as they've existed over three decades and not one senior manager or performance assessor has ever mentioned it or indeed asked what I'm listening to. What does this gentleman do? I don't know but he signs off with living an adequate life without a tote, which is a rather lovely sign off. Yeah, well there are very few totes left and there is some good, good please for totes

so I think, is it okay to say we don't need any more emails asking for a tote because we'll be more than able. We've got seven really good candidates for totes already. We have. The totes are doing a good job. We've even had a lovely email from a listener in Australia who took her tote out and actually a number of people came up to speak to her. I'm groping for that now and I'm going to find it if it kills me. Can we just say how brilliant it was to meet so many people in Cheltenham on Thursday? Apart from the smell

in the van, which the bus, the van, the Winnebago. The van. Your contract is currently up for any old lady and you're not doing yourself any favors for calling it a van. So much more than a van because very few vans have double beds and a shower. We can't use the double bed either by the way. Not that we wanted to. Very cramped on the Winnebago bus van. And feed didn't like the smell. I did, weirdly. But brilliantly handled by Lloyd and Jamie, who did all the technology brilliantly. And I know that even the sound in our tent when we went to interview Anne Cleves and Brenda Blethan was also very good. And sometimes these things are simply worth noting.

Because we wouldn't know how to do it and I'm really grateful to Lloyd and Jamie for being able to do it. You're absolutely right. And the whole Cheltenham Literature Festival experience is so mind-boggling. I mean, when that shebang rolls into town, managing it is just extraordinary. The way they get people around the site, every single event starts on time, the sound quality is always superb. You are right to mention that. I think we should say a big shout out to Jo James, who's one of the organizers of all of the artists and contributors. I don't know how she remains standing. And she's just one of those people who I think is probably dealing with, what would you say, upwards of a hundred people a day coming up and saying, Joe, and then asking her to do something.

And she's never anything other than friendly, smiling, helpful, and she gets it done. She's amazing. One of life's brilliant, capable, decent people. Can we say a huge hello to all of the people who stayed afterwards to have a little bit of a chat as well and it was lovely to meet you all. I'd like to say, and I know that you would too, a very special hello to Claire who had made the trip to see us and thank you for your lovely, lovely, thoughtful gifts. Only one of them remains, the edible stuff is Bean Eason and was thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed and I hope

you can stay listening to us for a very long time Claire because it means the world to us actually that you're enjoying something about this so it was really good to meet you in person. Thank you Claire absolutely and also just the fact that a lot of you feel that you and you actually are part of our it is a sort of crazed community. It's global and it's batty but it's also brilliantly supportive and we are really really grateful to you for taking an interest and continuing to take an interest and to turn up at events like that it means a huge amount. I know a lot of you were there for Brenda and Anne-Claire. Yes, much more than us. Let's be honest, great guests. Janice is the woman. She lives about two kilometres.

Now she's called this the Sydney CBD. I don't know what Sydney... Central Business District. Thank you. I thought it was... What's that other CBD that... Well, that's the stuff that's... Cognitive, behavioral... Oh, that. Well, that's CBD. I always think CBD, isn't it the cannabis stuff that hasn't got the THC in it? I have some CBD balm. CBT. Oh CBT is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. CBD is that rather nice balm I keep by my bed. Yes.

Put a little bit on my wrist. The stuff that doesn't make you high but is made from, it's a cannaboy, isn't it? Yes. It should be acknowledged isn't it? Yes. She's acknowledged me. Is it? I tell you what. Thank you, Doctor. We should have lived in a different suburb.

Thanks for that, Charlotte. She lives, she continues to live, two kilometres, she selfishly continues to live two kilometres from the Sydney Central Business District and each year the local council puts on a street fair. So I set off for a stroll around the fair toting my off-air bag. Firstly, it's fabulous quality. I mean it is and it's a great size. It is. And this was its first outing. However, the point of the email is to say I was approached by three of your fellow listeners

who admired with real envy my tote bag. So your Sydney Australian listeners are many to say the least. Janice that's brilliant to hear. I'm amazed that Janice went to an event in Sydney and met three other people who listen. That's very good. I think we are quite big in Australia aren't we? I think we're quite big in Canada. Big down under. It was always big in Japan, wasn't it, for groups that never really cut the mustard here. We'll take it. I always think of Bungalow Bill when somebody makes that kind of a comment. For younger listeners, who was Bungalow Bill?

So Bungalow Bill was married to Joan Collins for a little while. Not for all that long. She explored his bungalow and then wanted to go back to her stairs. So he was very cruelly called bungalow bill by the tabloids because he didn't have anything going on up top. It was all down the bottom. But I think that's horrible and we should call that out, shouldn't we? We just have, it's outrageous. It is. Quite a lot of people have got comments to make about talking men. Oh yeah, okay. So do you want to go on to talking men or have you got another topic for us?

Well I just want to say thank you to Sarah for your email about Chultnum, glad you enjoyed it. And then also a lovely email from Jan, I really wanted to mention this, because we were asking I think last week if there was a podcast about caring for a disabled child and Jan has emailed to say her daughter Rachel has a podcast called The Skies We're Under which is about parenting disabled children so there is one out there thank you to Jan for drawing our attention to that I just wanted to make sure that I got that out there. So the art of conversation is something that has really, really struck a chord with you. We were talking about those terrible conversations where somebody just speaks at you as you grow increasingly boss-eyed and sometimes just restless. Don't you find you just get fidgety

and restless? I start kind of pulling random hairs out of my eyebrows sometimes when people are just talking at me all the time. I sometimes just whip out an award I've won for broadcasting from my bag. See the name on here, that's mine. Lump it on the table. Well why not? Sometimes you get desperate. And a couple of you have asked about the listening project. So just do the parish notices on these first.

This one comes from Sally who says, I was really struck when listening to you talk on Thursday about the listening project and how valuable it would be to translate some of those basic skills of listening in a school. I'm a trustee of a performing arts foundation in Hampshire and I'd love to have a copy of your How to Have a Conversation guide. Now I'm going to try and track down the kind of basics that were given to the producers. It was never produced in the form of a kind of guide, you know, in a pamphlet or whatever, Sally, so just bear with me. It will take a little bit of time just to find the right thing and send

it on to you. But also I know that StoryCorps in America, which is the project that the listening project is based on. They do have a much more kind of formal guide to how to do the conversations because so many of their conversations are recorded just by the individuals chatting to each other. So I will dig something out for you and I will send it to you personally. And I will say the same thing to Angela who remembered a listening project conversation which was between two mums about the challenge of puberty for their autistic sons. And I remember that as well, Angela, it was a remarkable conversation because it was just

so honest about the fact that when boys go through puberty and they start wanting to do things and, you know, get a little bit aroused and stimulated, it is very difficult when they don't have the normal social attitudes and kind of barriers. So you find yourself trying to shepherd them away from the public gaze a lot. So I'm going to track down that conversation, Angela, and send it to you as well. So thank you very much indeed for both those queries but back to the main topic in hand I thought this was really interesting Jane it comes from Lucy who says as an introvert there are occasions when I quite enjoy a bloke who won't stop talking. Oh no I agree with that in fact I'm happy sometimes to just bobble around

in the slipstream of somebody else's conversational flow because it's a break. So I get that absolutely. Carry on. For example it functions when you're sitting next to somebody you've never met. In those situations I hate having to be the person who makes conversation because I can't stand small talk and I find it quite boring. What I'd like to add to the discussion is the double misogyny. First the droning on about themselves for an hour and second when they find out that I might actually know something. I have a senior position in an investment bank, but I'm also a petite lady, welcome to our club, and have always looked younger than my age, not in that club. If men at do's...

Oh you are. Oh no darling, you are. If men at do's ask me anything or make conversation, they usually assume it needs to be something about my children. Don't get me wrong, in social settings I much prefer not talking about work, but I'm growing bored of the look on a man's face when I eventually mention my role and expertise, usually in response to the delayed question of, do you work? Oh God. Do you work?

Because by the way, even if you don't go out to work, Exactly, you're working. You're still working. Yep, and you're probably working by the way, even if you don't go out to work, Exactly, you're working. you're still working. Yep, and you're probably working quite hard at that dinner table too. So we really, really hear you on that. And this is from Amy, and it's a very practical suggestion.

My husband's uncle, a jolly Yorkshireman, always had the best advice for meeting new people. When you meet somebody new, ask them three questions and try your best to be as interested as you can in their response and if they don't answer you any questions back then they're a twat. Well, I mean that actually is it. Yes, it is. There isn't anything more that needs to be said. But you know what they say, everything

had been said but not everybody had had a chance to say it. This is the classic sum up sum of a meeting. Did you by any chance, because you were still in Cheltenham, only you were doing wine times, I got back from Cheltenham in time to see on a laptop because the television wasn't functioning. That's another story. We're going to hear that story, don't worry. No, there is no story. No, it is because it involves your ridiculous outdoor satellite in TV area.

You're not wrong, but I was so angry about it, I can't actually talk about it without losing a sprocket. You're right, I'm currently the only person in Britain still with a satellite. It will become increasingly difficult to mend. That's what the bloke said on Friday! And eventually you're going to be there. He said get Skyglass! At the age of 95 and a 98 year old engineer is going to have to be sent out because they'll be the only people who actually know the technology chain. Yeah, you're not wrong.

Anyway, you're on a laptop. Yeah, well what's she got on a laptop? Because my youngest daughter is almost as, in fact she's such a nerd in a good way about the forthcoming American election she cannot get enough. So she actually said would you like to watch Question Time from America? That doesn't, would you like to watch Question Time is not a question I get very often from one of my children. Anyway we sat and watched it and they were trying to do a standard Question Time from Philadelphia I think and Fifi Labrous was very much in command, but it didn't really work on any number of levels, to be perfectly

honest with you, but also because the audience didn't get the idea of asking a question. They just didn't. So they gave statements and it all ended in a, I thought it was a pretty unsatisfactory experiment. I admire them for trying, but it didn't quite work. So what would be the cultural kind of interference that means we're still better at just asking a question in this country than in America? I don't know. They don't.

Is that about personal freedom, about just not seeing it enough? I don't know, but there's just, I mean, by the way, that's my assessment of the programme. Other people might have seen it and thought it was really enlightening. So don't take my word for it. It's still available, I'm sure. We've grown up with the whole concept of any questions on the radio, now question time on the telly and any questions are still going. So you stand up and you just say, well, you know, what does the panel think about something that's happened this week? But they the audience didn't they couldn't get their heads around this So do you think that's actually just much more ingrained in our political discourse? So we do have PMQs

We've got a kind of template haven't we? Somebody asked a question you listen, but but I think and you and I are as guilty of that of this as anybody. I think the statement as a question has crept into our world of interviewing enormously. As has the, I'm going to tell you my own personal experience of your world. Before I let you tell me your experience of your world, even though that's why we booked you. So note to self on that. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm absolutely guilty as charged. But I do think we had an email and I can't find it. So I do apologize from a listener who says she is a bit perturbed by what's happening in the States

and she would like a Trump supporting woman to email off air to explain why they are going to vote for Donald Trump. And that is the perspective that I would like to hear. We would give them a fair hearing, wouldn't we? Oh, definitely, because it is intriguing. Yeah, I don't get it. I don't even pretend to get it. And I need to know why you want to, you are prepared to put your faith in this man. Incidentally, Fred Trump, Donald Trump's nephew, will be on our fair tomorrow. Brilliant. That's one you've done earlier.

One I've done and one that's baking in the oven at the moment. And he doesn't put a lot of people, he puts no faith at all in his uncle. And then his sister Mary has also written a book about her experience, she can't stand the man. So it's, yeah, but we do need to try to understand. I sound like some sort of therapist. No, not at all, not at all. Do you feel that in that role slightly?

Without turning this into a catalogue of programs that we've done for the BBC, we did a program called Pen Pals and it must have been 20... What would it have been? Maybe 2018, I don't know, quite a while ago now. Where one person wrote to another. In very old fashioned, actually writing letters form. We did it across six months before we made the programme. And I wrote to a Trump supporting woman of my own age, who was living in, I think it was in Ohio. And it was fascinating, Jane, because, you know, obviously, I arrived at that pairing with quite a few preconceptions. And her point was, and admittedly it was before quite so many criminal prosecutions had been

attempted against him. She said that Hillary Clinton just didn't ring true and that there was an authenticity about Donald Trump where he was, you know, he was a man speaking his mind in the way that we know men have a lot of stuff in their mind, which isn't often spoken. So she didn't mind. But I think she felt that there was a gloss and a kind of a deliberate cage around the Democrats where they weren't saying what people thought. And you know, that is what Donald Trump appeals to, isn't it? I'm speaking your truth. Even though quite you think well that's not my truth but you're bedazzled by someone saying it is a truth? I think he gets away with that.

Well he just he has a whole new low standard set for him that apparently only he will ever have and it's still absolutely fine to judge him by that incredibly low standard. There are sort of some comparisons to Boris Johnson but they're not actually that similar. But the other thing that really keyed in for her was the family thing. So we did talk a lot about family and about kids, we wrote about our kids to each other and she felt that he represented a family man. What? Well, I mean, he puts all of his children in high places.

Oh, I suppose, yeah, he wants the best for his kids. Lovely. Louise has emailed, she says that, I listened with interest to your conversation this week about the US election. I'm British, but I've lived in the States for almost 20 years. I live in Wyoming, it's a very Republican state and something of a political backwater. Despite having a land area about the size of the UK, and I just know, I feel when I hear things like that, that I know almost nothing about America. She goes on to say there are only

about half a million people here and we have one representative in the House of Representatives, compare that to California's 52. To be quite honest, there's really no point in me voting, although I definitely will. I'm finding it difficult to find anyone who thinks that Kamala Harris will make a better president than Trump, and it's quite an isolating feeling to know that all the people I work with, as well as my in-laws, will be voting Trump and seem to have completely bought into his rhetoric. These are all otherwise completely normal, decent, upstanding people. I don't get it. We were in the UK visiting my family when your general election took place earlier this year. My husband was just astounded

at the speed at which the changeover of power happened, as well as the general air of politeness. I know that the British system is by no means perfect, but compared to the shit show here, it is the height of sophistication. I do actually think our handover of power, because it was between the two main political parties, in this election was particularly brilliant and polite and decent from both sides. It was dignified, wasn't it? You're right. And I suppose we take that for granted, don't we? Until it goes south and sour, we're not recognizing just how important that is. And

there are so many people who say it may well be a pyrrhic victory for the Democrats if that's what you want, in that America becomes an even more divided and divisive and difficult and dangerous place to live if Kamala Harris gets elected, because the backlash will be even worse than before, which is a terrifying prospect, isn't it, to have the care for what you wish for? I mean, nobody should be going into a voting booth having to think that.

No. Can we talk about wine times? Of course we can. I don't want to be too despondent. Because after our show in Cheltenham on Thursday, you went on to do an edition of Wine Times. When might I be able to hear this? I think it's probably up on the platform already. My heart sank a little bit when I walked in, Jane, because there were high stalls to clamber on to.

Well, you know what struggles I have with high stalls. So high stalls and six glasses of wine to taste is just not a pretty combination. It was with the lovely Will Lyons, there's nothing that that man doesn't know about wine. There was a fizzy one in the beginning. Could he fix my satellite? He probably could. He probably could. And it was a splendid evening. I learnt a bit, Jane, actually. I did learn a bit. We talked quite a lot about Californian Chardonnays. But it's not a conversation that I've managed to sustain before. No. But I'm informed about it now.

Right. And actually, it sent me yearning for them. So do you remember back in the late 1990s, early 2000s, the Oakey Chardonnay? Came in. Yes. Did they? Did it? It was part Ron Seal, part wine.

It was just so creosote wasn't it? What did you pair it with? Well, at the wine times. Back in the day, or either. Marlborough lights. Marlborough lights, lovely. Yes. Marlborough lights and regret.

What about you? I've just never been a wine drinker. My first experience with wine was the Blue Nun, which we used to have on the, I hate to mention Christmas, but on the table on Christmas Day, was the Blue Nun, which we used to have on the table on Christmas Day. Now is that very sweet? Very sweet. The Mattias Rosé, which is the lovely curvy, I preferred Mattias Rosé. But as soon as I discovered fizzy wines, that was me, I was done. Baby Cham was my nursery slope and I've been very firmly going in that direction ever since.

OK. Never really drinking anything else. Can you still buy a baby sham? Yes, I think so. Do you remember the ad? I don't want to rule out any future sponsorships. So didn't the ad have a horse or some kind of a minotaur or something? A tiny little pony.

A rather frisky little pony which is how I saw myself in my baby sham swigging days. And you would go up to the bar and say, I'll have a baby sham. Well, I didn't say that because I would rely on a chap to go and get me one. That's how things were back in the day. And then the other eggnoggy thing. What was that eggnog? Advocat. What was that? Snowball. A snowball.

A couple of snowballs and a baby sham. Which was a little... A snowball had the kind of consistency of angel delight before it had set. It was good, it was properly good for you. I'm sure it was full of nutrients. I'm only thinking about this because I was with my school friends at the weekend so yeah, some of those teenage parties. Did you go down memory lane with the baby sham and some apricot? I didn't but I was in the same company that kept in those days and I just want to say that on Sunday morning and this is I glory in subcultures because we're all we're all essentially we like to have our own little niche or crevice don't we and on Sunday morning in the Peak District I went to my first ever vintage rally and I just want to

shout out to this world because it's not something I know anything about but it seemed like a proper community of like-minded folk who gather to admire old buses, beautiful old cars, there was a particularly gorgeous little red Mini Cooper and then also on the fringes lots of stalls selling sprockets and brackets and gas masks and high-vis clothing and very weirdly one stall had a program for sale of the marriage of Princess Margaret and Anthony Armstrong-Jones. Well I think you, I don't think you're allowed to have any kind of rally across the United Kingdom without some kind of a royal wedding memorabilia.

It just seemed really weird in that company. And then on the fringes, behind a sort of rope, there must have been getting on for 50 people on fold-up chairs with their arms folded, you know, I'm going to say comfortably sized men, in appropriate rural clothing, just with their own little steam engines. I know. I don't understand what this is.

Sorry, their own little steam engines. Yeah, they sort of had these little... Is that a euphemism? No, they just had these little... I think they were like little generator... I don't know, little steam engines. Okay. I can't describe it any other way. So you're showing me

the size which is about a foot long. Yeah, a little bit long which they'd obviously either preserved or maintained or built themselves or recreated. And were they actually making steam? They were chugging, absolutely chugging steam. Okay. And the two people, it was mostly men though not entirely, would just sit with their arms folded on these fold-up chairs either side of these machines watching them, and admirers would gather at the rope just to have a propaganda. Okay, well that sounds good. That's a day out. Look, it was, I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying how fabulous that these things exist,

and please if you know anything about that particular subculture please do email in because I just didn't know it happened. What do you think you might be drawn to later in life when retirement has beckoned and you need a tribe to become part of because you really do don't you? Yeah I don't think it'll be that. No? Okay what would it be? But I do, with age, love a rummage around a sale of old stuff. So I think, yeah, I could enter the, well, what am I saying? The antique world. A car boot sale kind of level or?

More that. Brocante. I think car boots. Car boot sale. Those are huge things, aren't they? Well, yeah, with a car boot, presumably that's not a British invention, that's a global phenomenon isn't it? Yeah. I'm sure our listeners in Sydney, CBD, will be very familiar with a car boot sale. Yeah, I've never been to one myself.

No, not out of a snobbery at all. I think when you have young kids and you live in London, it's unlikely that you've got time to go on a Sunday and buy more stuff. It's more that. We used to have a very big one at a local secondary school which are people, I mean it really raised a great deal of money for the school, but properly relied on it. Well there is a huge one just by where our lead producer Rosie lives as well which is not far from me, but I've always just felt a little bit frightened by them because one of my big things is trying to get rid of all of the stuff that comes into our house. I mean, it's like flotsam and jetsam on the tide, isn't it? You kind of one day you wake up and you just think

I'm overwhelmed by it. Where is it? Where's this stuff come from? And why is there so much more of it every single day? Yeah. So I've not been drawn to the places where I could buy more. Maybe you and I, when we have retired from podcasting and broadcasting, just sell all our gear at Carboots. Yes, good idea. And also we've got some between us, probably some quite good tech stuff that an awful lot of people who formerly worked at the BBC would like back. Actually, they have never been to collect that stuff. I've still got it. It's in a box. I'm here. Okay. It's in a box. There's a previous house that I used to live in that's still got an ISDN line in it that

the BBC may or may not be paying for. I hope they are still paying for it. No, that would be terrible. What an awful waste of money. We'd have to issue an apology and just while I'm there, if I ever high-five you and you give me a sneer and turn around, or if we're ever on a photo shoot and you find my hand grasping a little bit too far into your waist, let's make an apology video. That's really convincing. That was this weekend's hashtag strictly controversy. Look out there'll be more next week.

I couldn't believe it when all of that started bubbling up on my social platforms last night. I've never been less surprised than I was to see Greg Wallace on the front page of the Sun today. I haven't seen that. Well, I'll show it to you in a sec. Can I just do a tiny shout out? I've got to get onto the universe. No, no, very much so. But a tiny shout out. I would be very interested to hear if there are any quilting tribes in this country

because later in life I am drawn to that quilting textile thing. Oh, that's a beautiful thing, isn't it? And it's a really, really wonderful thing and I know it's absolutely embedded in American culture. It is such a hugely respected art form and I haven't found the right kind of place for that in this country but I'm sure amongst our listeners they will be able to tell me tales of quilts and I would like to hear those too. So steam, vintage steam rallies, quilting, all your thoughts are very, very welcome. Maggie Adair in Pocock is our guest today, but I just wanted to say Debbie, thank you

for your lovely email about your trip to the Cheltenham festival and From Jane W in brackets doctor who enjoyed having a photograph taken with us both She says she wangled her way over to you afterwards. You are both charming and kind must have been a good day Actually, it was I'm with Jane when she commented that she like me has average length legs, but a short trunk I've clung to this idea about myself. I thought the whole point was that you had short legs and a long trunk. No.

You've got long legs? I've got relative, no, normal legs and a short trunk. Yeah. OK. My mummy told me that when I was little and I believed it. OK. Oh, I tell you what, things that your mother tells you. I'm reading Vanessa Feltz's book. I said to Eve, young Eve earlier, I tell you what, things that your mother tells you. I'm reading Vanessa Phelps' book.

I said to Eve, young Eve earlier, I said, I started it on the train because I just knew it would be good. And she's really funny, isn't she? She's so funny. But sad. It is a brilliantly, brilliantly written book, but I really, really feel for her. And there's so much to talk about.

The way that she was treated by her mum, Who she loves. Yes, in the name of love, is really heartbreaking and so much of it about appearance. Well it was something that did crop up last week on the podcast, the idea that comments that parents make. Yeah, stay with you forever. But there's one line, I don't know whether you've got to this in her book yet, where

she's kind of put down by the guy who she then married in a kind of, you know, why would you want to do that as a career when she started out in journalism she was writing for Hello Magazine and he was quite kind of cynical about it and she just says disapproval was just such familiar territory to me. I didn't even stop to think that that wasn't a very nice thing to say and you just think wow, wow, that's a life-changing thing. I think that's a really good point to make is when parents say that they're establishing a pattern. Totally. And in adult life you will go and seek out the temperature of the bath that you enjoyed as a child and if that is your

temperature that is what you will feel comfortable in. So loads to talk about but you're right it's also a really really really funny love out loud. Well the honeymoon food poisoning. The dysentery. No one wants to get dysentery at any time. But her turn of phrase Vanessa's turn of phrase is just so glorious so we're looking forward to that enormously. I just got to say a very big thank you to Alex who sent in a picture, it's a photograph, saw this and thought that Fee must be a liar, it's harsh isn't it? Not only does she like the theatre, she actually does theatre tours, also managed to photograph the front of the bus so double bubble for me. It's South East Coaches and

would you like to describe it? Theatre Trips with Fiona is across the front of the South East Coach which does look a luxury coach so don't be too hard on yourself. But look how pissed off the people look. Don't look as though they're looking forward to going to the theatre and the driver doesn't want to take them. No, or they've just been to see a show and they've really not enjoyed it at all. But thank you, that is just fantastic, absolutely fantastic. You'll be glad to know I'm not going to the theatre for weeks.

There'll be none of my mind-bogglingly good reviews coming your way. Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, we see someone struggling with addiction. Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help or get help at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada. Now I did suggest we were going to explore the solar system and indeed we are in the

company of the brilliant Maggie Adair and Pocock. It's always great to talk to you Maggie and it's a fantastic day to have you on. Space scientist, broadcaster, academic and author and President-elect of the British Science Association. Yes I was. Now I'm Chancellor of the University of Leicester. You get about don't you? Your book is the story of the solar system. It's packed with colour and loads of infographics. That's right, isn't it? It is, yes. And obviously it's a vast subject. I wish I hadn't said that now.

Who is this book designed to appeal to? Because I know you have dyslexia, you've talked about that, and so therefore, I mean, it wouldn't be fair to say that you write for people with dyslexia, but you understand them. Yes. So for me, when I get a book and it's got sort of a large swathes of prose, I panic. And so I've written some books like that but I like to get information out there as easily as possible and an infographic is a great way of doing it and there's so much that we have learnt and discovered about our solar system. It's trying to find a way, a compact way of getting that information to sort of adults, kids, anyone who's interested. And so as a dyslexic, it's a nice way to sort of send out the information, but it should work for everyone.

Yeah, did you, when were you diagnosed with dyslexia? When you were very little? No, no, in my 40s, I didn't know. And I used to beat myself up a lot, because I'd see other people sort of writing reports and sort of doing essays and things like that and I was thinking you're just not trying hard enough, you should work harder because somehow it just didn't click for me and it wasn't until much much later I worked with an organisation, a charity called Made By Dyslexia and it's quite interesting because it's quite revealing. Many of the traits I just think are weird Maggie actually turn out to be dyslexic traits like empathy, communication, storytelling, all these things are dyslexic traits and so I don't say I suffer from dyslexia anymore

I see it as a real positive I see it as my superpower. Yeah so it doesn't mean you don't have any empathy. If you're not dyslexic you know yeah oh no no I think many dyslexists have heightened empathy rather than... Excellent okay well just checking're just checking. Just to make sure. So the Europa Clipper, we have just checked and it is due to take off from Cape Canaveral round about six minutes past five British summer time, heading for Europa, which is one of Jupiter's moons. Now, I learned from your book that there are 95 moons around Jupiter. Yes, and Saturn has a similar number. So yes, we have one solitary moon and as a lunatic I love it dearly.

But yes, these sort of gas giants and the ice giants as well, the planets in the outer solar system have a lot of moons. And the moon's quite exciting because we've made discoveries here on Earth which have changed our understanding of where we might find life in the universe and in the past we used to say we need to find life on planets which are in the Goldilocks zone which I think is a lovely term. So a Goldilocks zone is a planet where it sits at the right distance from its star so it's not too hot so all the water evaporates and not too cold so all the water

freezes but it's just right and so that's where we've been looking for life at places like Mars, you know, life on Earth. But we discovered life in the deepest trenches, like the Mariana Trench, 11 kilometres below sea level, living off thermal vents. That's on Mars? No, that's on Earth. That's on Earth, okay. Yes, but it re- sort of repositioned where we thought we might find life. Because if life can live on these thermal vents at the deep bottom of the ocean,

totally isolated from sunlight, then there's a possibility that we could find life on some of these moons going around these giant planets, because there's be sort of turbulence as the gravitational pull acts on these planets. And so, yes, life underneath the icy crusts. And there are plenty of icy crusts, I understand, on this Europa moon, which is big. And I think at some point it's 25 kilometres of ice.

Yes. So I think for you, the idea, this is I think more of a survey mission, but in the future what we'd love to do, and there's also a lovely thing called Enceladus, an icy crust and liquid water underneath because it jets out every so often. And the ideal scenario would be that you'd land on the surface in the future, melt through the ice, and then sort of look around underneath and see if there's life there. Yes, I mean the Europa Clipper won't get there, I mean I'm thinking of it, won't get there till 2030.

Yes. It's a good job of Anty Weston in charge of this by the way because it would be a heck of a lot longer than that. But it is, I mean you're in it for the long haul with space aren't you? You really are. And these distances are vast. I mean if you look at the distance between sort of the Sun and Saturn, we're talking about billions of kilometres. And also what we often do is we do something called a gravitational slim back, so we swing around other planets to pick up our speed and our momentum to actually get out to these outer planets. So to people who say, why are we doing this, what does it matter? I know you've got some

great answers for this, but what is the answer? So it's quite interesting because I've been working as a space scientist for sort of 20 years now and we do these sort of headline things, you know, going to the outer planets, you know, out to Pluto, looking out there. But as a space scientist, most of my work has actually been looking at our planet, Earth observation satellites, satellites that help us understand climate change, satellites that have helped with communication, all these different things. So that's the bulk of what we do. But then we also have these outriders. I worked on the James Webb Space Telescope, largest space telescope ever built, looking at a deep dark space.

And with these, it's just, I like to call it the poetry of science, because no one says, oh why do we do poetry? But it just makes our heart glad. I hate to break it to you Maggie, some people do say why we do poetry, just ignore them. just makes our heart glad. I hate to break it to you Maggie, some people do say well, they do Poach, just ignore them. There's so many things that enhance our lives and I think as we're exploring the universe, questions like are we alone? They're deep philosophical questions which would be lovely to answer. Well they don't get any bigger do they? I know you've written about the James Webb telescope too haven't you? Yes, but Webb's universe and because the James Webb Space Telescape was launched on Christmas Day 2021,

and I was biting my nails, I was so nervous, but it sits one and a half million kilometres away from planet Earth and looks into deep dark space and gathers infrared energy. And with this, we're looking and peering through parts of the universe we couldn't see before, because light, invisible light doesn't penetrate through these clouds, but infrared light does, so it gives us a new view of the universe we couldn't see before because light and visible light doesn't penetrate through these clouds but infrared light does so it gives us a new view of the universe. Right, can we get your view on we have to ask you the Elon Musk question because well I don't know whether it's controversial or not I mean the man is a genius you have to

you simply have to acknowledge that yes and sometimes geniuses, genii, come with a bit of baggage and he's got he's got a whole shedload of luggage I would say to be honest. But that amazing thing at the weekend with the so-called chopsticks collecting the reusable rocket, just bringing it down and clutching it tight. When did you see that? Well I've been watching some of the highlights and you see it and it's sort of one in a series though because he was doing sort of reusable launches and sending sort of rockets up and then bringing them back down to Earth and two landing simultaneously and so when you see this happening it just feels space is a great resource as I was saying of observation satellites things like that but it's nice to make it as green as possible and as reusable as possible.

And he is pushing that envelope, which you've got to take your hat off to him, as you say, baggage, but it's cool stuff. Well, it was actually a thing of beauty to watch that happen, wasn't it? Yes, it is. Do you think, I know he didn't want to come to the British Investment Summit or was it that he wasn't invited? Was it that he wasn't invited? I don't remember. I'm looking to Fee for enlightenment. I don't have any access to that information. I don't know either. But he's not there.

This is this huge British investment summit that's happening today. I think there is a lot of concern in Britain about his political views. Some people will agree with them. Lots of people don't. Do you think we should engage with Elon Musk? I feel the future of space is dependent on people like Elon Musk. I have this crazy theory that there's been three eras of space. The first era was confrontation because it was all about lobbing into continental ballistic missiles.

The second era was collaboration, which is lovely, and they get in 1975 the formation of the European Space Agency. But the third era is commercialisation. And as a crazy person who wants to get out there into space, commercialization is what's going to get me there. And so I think we need to sort of embrace sort of the good things he does, but also questions some of his rather far out ideas.

And so I think it is an ongoing dialogue. I don't think we should be in a position to cut him off. But I think just, yes, a discussion. I think it's like with many of these things. I think if you shove things away or you don't sort of dive in, it can be anything, racism, whatever. If you don't have an open discussion, then it goes underground. So I think open dialogue. So I hope that he decided not to come rather than he wasn't invited. Because I think by inviting people and drawing them in, we learn from each other. You seem to be saying you wouldn't rule out a trip to space with SpaceX.

Oh. Well, you more or less have said that, Maggie. Well, actually, you know, I've always wanted to go into space. It's been my childhood dream and it's driven me throughout my life. So, yes, so I need to know a little more about some of his wayward ideas. But yes, and there's the man and there's the company. How do you correlate the two? I'm not sure you're going to be able to do this.

In your book about the solar system, what is your very favourite factlet that somebody could learn right now and take away for the rest of their lives? With the solar system, I think it is just some of the scale of it. And because actually one of the things people don't realize is when you look up at the night sky, all the stars you see are suns like our sun. Now, the sun is I like to call it,

it's the centre, it's the hub of our solar system and 99% of all the mass in our solar system resides in the sun. You can fit 1.3 million Earths into the sun if you squish them up. So the sun is massive and there's a whole new area called space weather because the Sun and it throws out something called the solar wind which are charged particles that stream out into space that's what causes the aurora which we've been seeing in lower southern recently in sort of Cambridge and places like that and so understanding how this massive body which uses fusion at its heart to create all this light

and energy, understanding how that works and how it influences us here on Earth I think is critical for our future. What about the future of the human race on other planets Maggie? Isn't it fair to say that there has never, well isn't it true to say, there's never been a pregnant woman in space or a baby conceived outside of the atmosphere so how do we know that we would be able to carry on? So I think one of the things that happens on the International Space Station is sort of all sorts of research and one of the

covers in the book is looking at sort of all the different creatures that have been into space. Turtles and things like that and it sort of seems really weird because you're... I was sent a turtle to space. I think it was the European Space Agency but I'm not sure and things like just imagine this turtle in this sphere of water going yeah what's and so but I think we look at other creatures. So far only just over 600 people have ever been into space so gone above that sort of 80 kilometers to say I'm an astronaut now and yeah and in the future I think we will have things like moon bases.

If you look at the moon, only 12 people have been to the moon's surface. There will be white, male, and American. And so now there's the Artemis mission, which is sending people back to the moon, and they're saying they've got to send a woman, they've got to send someone from a different ethnicity, maybe someone with dyslexia, I'm just saying.

But. I can't think of anyone, sorry. I know, I keep on writing, they don't respond. But I think it's a step at a time. And first of all we've got to really have a good understanding of the effect that space has on us as humans. You get decalcification of your bones if you don't exercise. Well exactly, so I can't see that anybody would really want to take the chance. It's just such a, it's a big ask of something.

And the thing is, a child born let's say on the moon or born on the International Space Station, because their development would be in that microgravity environment, bringing them back to Earth would be very difficult. Same with kids on Mars. NASA has said that the first person to land on Mars is alive today. I'm hoping it's me, but we'll see But yes if you if people were born on Mars then they wouldn't be able to work on Earth without augmentation or help. So I think that's fascinating. It is, it's our future. Yes. But there's and there's so many ethical questions. I like to say to the kids, I go out and speak to lots of school kids, I like to say that we've had

a wild party here on Earth, made a bit of a mess of the place. So before we start going to the moon or Mars or anywhere else, let's learn the lessons because otherwise we're just gonna export the same rubbish out there. Let's get a couple of bin bags and have a proper clear out. Proper clear out.

Always so good to be in your company, Maggie. Thank you very much indeed. Dr. Maggie Adair in Pocock and her book is called The Story of the Solar System. Please take her to space. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. I really do hope that conversation with Maggie has provided food for thought. Has it, Fee? Very much so. I just want to leave the planet now.

Did you, I mean, what did you think of that? I mean, Elon Musk is a figure who, well, everyone can have a view, but the way that bit of kit clasped that spaceship. So the rocket going back into its kind of hold. I mean, that was a moment, there's just no denying it. It was an absolute moment, but I'm not quite sure what it told us in the kind of wider space race and claim for glory outside our planet. What does that tell us? I suppose it proved that you can have a reusable craft, which is something they

did try with the space shuttle and it worked for a while, until it didn't. Once again, I'm plumbing the depths of my ignorance, but please do bear with us. There'll be more of this sort of thing at around the same time tomorrow. Well, you choose when you listen, so it's totally up to you, isn't it? And if you've nodded off, welcome back. It's Jane and me at times. Dot radio. choose when you listen so it's totally up to you isn't it? And if you've nodded off, welcome back. It's Jane and Phee at times. Dot radio.

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music