Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Off Air Turns 1! (with Dom Joly and Peter Brathwaite at Cheltenham Literature Festival)

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Get your candles out, because Off Air turns 1 today! Jane and Fi are celebrating at Cheltenham. Deliciously delirious from both the festival and the cake, they mull over flat earth theories, ice cream flavours, and beans in ramekins. In this bumper episode, Jane and Fi speak to renowned UK opera singer Peter Brathwaite at the festival about his project and book 'Rediscovering Black Portraiture'. They're also joined by comedian Dom Joly to discuss his new book 'The Conspiracy Tourist'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]  Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi  Assistant Producer: Megan McElroy Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Off-Air once again from the Cheltenham Literature Festival. Final time though, Fee. We'll be back in our normal place tomorrow. We've had quite a funny time this afternoon because we've been broadcasting live from the Waterstones tent right at the heart of the festival kind of campus. But there's something about us, Jane, where we obviously don't look like we are incredibly important live broadcasters. We look very much like we're available if you need directions to toilet facilities, if you'd like to know where the authors are, if you'd like to know what time michael rose and session starts we look like a help desk not that there's anything wrong with that by the way no no and that's absolutely fine

but we're just an unhelp desk aren't we because we're the helpless desk yeah we don't have the answers to all of those questions and but we've been terribly polite about it i think well we have um and uh but we also at the same time, are faintly irritated because, as my colleague indicates there, we obviously expect people to look on admiringly. Yes, we're doing a very, very intricate political interview about Sakhir Starmer's speech defining the Labour Party for the next decade. Exactly.

But, yes, Michael Rosen starts at 3.30. He's over in the forum. the next decade exactly yes michael rosen starts at 3 30 he's over in the forum so we had a we were talking last night about that kind of pre-hotel room tingle that you get before you check in and if you follow us on the instas that's jane and fee if you're on instagram there's lots of very cozy content there nothing to be worried about nothing that will shock your world or do any harm to anybody But we did post some images the view from our rooms and you got the fire escape fire escape in car park Yeah, and I got the air conditioning unit and it did make a fairly persistent noise All night at the window open because I cannot bear the heat in hotels

And it was actually quite warm because we're having this weird weather in Britain at the moment So yeah, it was a difficult night and this morning and there was a quite warm because we're having this weird weather in Britain at the moment. So, yeah, it was a difficult night. And this morning there was a comment on the Instagram. I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of the person, but they said there's always rodents around air con units. I rather hope that you hadn't seen that. I didn't see it until this morning. Why would there be rodents around an air con unit? Throw that out there. Somebody will know.

Yeah. Well, they're attracted by the warmth, are they? Or the hot air? Is it? Okay. So they like to just kind of curl up at the base of an aircon unit yeah i think so okay well um i felt quite comforted i mean it's always it's always good to see a fire escape i mean that's not be silly about that absolutely yeah and i always imagine that um rats probably they don't bother to go all the way up a series of steps, do they? So I thought it might be all right. Well, I used to spin the line at home that mice can't climb stairs. Very good.

There was no need to worry because their legs were so little. But look, we had a lovely night. So all of us had a very nice night's sleep at the hotel in Chelham. Well, I had that experience where I was woken up by the sound of my own snoring, which I do think is that it's just a low point. How do you know that that's what's woken you up? Because in a very strange moment of human experience, I came to just with the sound of my...

The last... Yes. Really, really horrible. Well, I mean, imagine how it was for the person sleeping on the other side of the wall, Jane. And the ten people I had in the bed. Because obviously we are showbiz and it's rock and roll you know i i don't i don't know what i'm going to get up to tonight or indeed

i can't remember what i got up to last night although i seem to remember we both had beef bourguignon and i went to bed at about half nine well i had to go and walk it off i had to go for quite a substantial walk around cheltenham late at night because i don't often have a birth bulking your on a monday evening with a pile of mash underneath it was very lovely rather nice wasn't it it really hit the spot that meal yeah sometimes things don't but that did I had that uh thing where people above me were walking you know they got into their room about 10 30 and they were obviously getting ready for bed and you kind of think gosh how where are you going in your room for there to be so many and you kind of track them don't you in you going in your room for there to be so many footsteps? Pad, pad, pad around.

And you kind of track them, don't you, in your head. You think, OK, well, you've been to the bathroom and then you've come back and you've hung up your clothes and then you've probably forgotten your charger so you've gone to your suitcase and you've got that back. What else are you doing up there? Who knows? I mean, I think Cheltenham is a place for a mini break, isn't it?

It's a beautiful place. I think it would be an evocative place to spend a midweek evening, Jane. Yes, indeed. Oh, this is lovely. We're getting a cake, but I don't know why. Why have we got a cake, Kate? Oh, yes, it's the first birthday of our Times Radio show and off-air podcast. We just overheard this fantastic little aside from Rosie, our producer,

who just said, put a candle in it, but don't light it. We were thinking, in what? Sometimes the young people have these exchanges, and we don't always know what they're talking about. Well, you've splashed out here. I imagine this must have cost getting on for £1.80. So thank you very much indeed. That's absolutely.

We are blown away. That is lovely. Well, we can eat that on the train on the way home, because we were worried a bit. Well, I'm not worried, because I had the good sense to get myself a fajita wrap. Yeah, which you're going to eat all by yourself. I am, yeah. And the rest of the team are just now, well, we're going to eat the cake now, so we'll be fine.

That's very thoughtful. That's actually lovely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. So happy birthday to us. And if you've been with us from the start at Times Radio, then thank you very much indeed for bearing with us. I think we had a little bit of a rocky start actually we didn't quite we didn't quite uh get into the right rhythm no because we changed from doing a weekly podcast to doing a

daily podcast so thank you for bearing with us no don't thank me oh sorry honestly i'm being paid as well. No, I totally agree. And I think I am, like you, very grateful to those people who've stuck with Off Air and as we've modged along. Now, we've got two guests today, haven't we? Yes, we ought to crack on. We probably do. But you've got some questions to read out.

So explain this. Times Radio and the Times and Sunday Times are all co-sponsors of the Cheltenham Literature Festival. So there is a tent here somewhere on site where you can go and find out a little bit more about The Times and about Times Radio, and they have these cards in there where they've been asking people to just write a question on them for Times Radio presenters, because there have been quite a few,

including us, who've done their programmes live from here this year. So there have been all manner of different types of people, different ages of people who have entered the tent. And you've got a little pile of the questions there. And I've got a little pile of the questions. And before we go to our first interview, which will be with the opera singer and now artist and portraiture kind of collator, curator, Peter Brathwaite,

we'll do some of these and then we'll do some more. And then it's Dom Jolly. So you've got an absolutely packed podcast today. Right. This is my first one to you. What do you do? What do I do? I talk. OK, very good. Do you want to do one? What football team do you support? Well, I mean, I support football teams through a process of osmosis, Jane. And I don't like to claim that I support Liverpool, but my son supports Liverpool. And so through the prism of the teenager,

and I mean, what a team to pick. So he's a late teenager now, but throughout his early childhood and then early teenage years, what a team to be jogging alongside because they have had a superb decade. So I'm a Liverpool supporter and you're a dyed in the wool. Well, I am because I can't fight it off. I've tried. You cannot leave it. I've tried to leave it behind because I think there's quite a lot wrong with men's football. I'm going to say it.

And also occasionally as a scouser, I don't know if I've ever mentioned that, I get a bit annoyed by how much football hangs over the city in a way that I don't think is altogether healthy. Just a bit. Sometimes I just think it's just too much. OK. But is that a hangover from kind of darker times in Liverpool FC's history?

It's not just Liverpool, it's Everton as well. But haven't you gone on that journey with Liverpool over the last decade? I mean, they've got a lot I was in Istanbul which sometimes I forget that I was that incredible game where they were 3-0 down at half time

and then won the European Cup and that was phenomenal You have been at most world events, Jane It's true, I have I wasn't at the Battle of Hastings I know some people think I was but I really wasn't. As in core I was. In answer to the lovely kids question. So what is my favorite is still Liverpool because like I say you can't it's just there and there's nothing you can do about it right your question. Well just tiny

subsequent question. Because women's football has really come of age in our lifetime, do you feel that you're allowed to choose a different team to support as a women's football team? No, you see, that's where I'm completely hypocritical and inconsistent. No. OK, interesting. No. Because I'd be quite happy to support Arsenal. Oh, well, I wouldn't.

What's your favourite book? My favourite book of all time. I'm a terrible, terrible tart when it comes to favourite books, because quite often it's the book that I've read last, which I just fall in love with. Well, we haven't got much time, so what was it? All of that kind of stuff. So I was I really, really loved. Oh, gosh, you go first. And I'm just going to have to recalibrate in my head okay uh well the book i most enjoyed recently was jonathan co's bourneville and that has put me on a jonathan co journey so i've just bought another book of his called the rotters club and i do think they're

great books if anyone's interested in kind of basically the story of my life so growing up in the 70s and 80s and then morphing into the 21st century. Sorry, has someone written a biography about you? They should have done. But it's about the years that I have lived through and the impact that historic and national events have had on my life. Okay. But not on my life, because it's not about me. It's about a man called, what's his name?

Trotter. Is it Trotter? Hang on, I've got it in my bag. And he bought it today. Well, I'll just say a couple of on I've got it in my bag and he bought it today well I'll just say a couple of things while Jane's looking in her bag

which let's face it we could be some time everybody just be careful with the wrap because you don't want that to explode in your bag

I'm not mopping that up for you so I would say the most recent book that I have enjoyed the most is Hitler's Stalin Mum and Dad

which is Daniel Finkelstein's book about his family history which is Daniel Finkelstein's book about his family history, which is just the most wonderful read and just so informative. I must have put it in my other bag. As well. Yeah.

And I did really, and I know that you hate me for this, but I really did enjoy Valerie Perrin's Fresh Water for Flowers, which was our book club. A great showbiz book, and he's coming our way on Thursday. No lesser person than Michael Ball, who I think we should just call The Ball.

He's coming on. We did promise him, I think, a couple of weeks ago. This time he is coming on. He's written a book about, largely actually, it's not really a memoir, it's really about his decades-long love affair with aspects of love. And Fee, the book is called Different Aspects. Wow. Yeah.

Okay. I mean, he could have just chosen so, so many titles based on his memory. Well, he hasn't. He's just chosen. No, I know he could. And wisely, he hasn't. Okay? Yeah.

Because he could have called it Ball on Ball. He could. On the Ball. New Ball. New Balls, called it ball on ball. He could. On the ball. New ball. New balls, please. Total balls. Yeah, okay. Right, I think we should introduce Peter Brathwaite

because we've got a cab. We've got to get a cab. Oh, gosh, okay. Well, hang on just a ticky because my computer's gone off. Can I just say that the one book that just stays with me forever is What I Love by Siri Hustved. Okay. So I just say that the one book that just stays with me forever is What I Love by Siri Hustved. So I just chucked that in there too. Right. This is well worth listening to. Peter Brathwaite is a renowned UK opera singer. And during the lockdowns, he found himself with

some free time, obviously, because he wasn't performing and nobody was able to go and see him on stage. And the Getty Museum was challenging artists to restage famous paintings using household items. So Peter began researching more than 100 works of art featuring black sitters, and he recreated them. He posed as the sitter himself in every work that he explored and recreated, which meant that he took on the persona of everyone from the Queen of Sheba to President Obama with Saint Maurice in between. And this book that he has created

from all of those works of art is called Rediscovering Black Portraiture. There's also a collection of essays about the subject within the book. And we spoke to him here at Cheltenham and began by asking him to take us back to those lockdowns where this challenge became his reality. I discovered the challenge on Good Friday and at that point I'd experienced most of my work for the foreseeable fly away from the diary and I was left without

much to do and I was scrolling through seeing lots of girls with pearl earrings and not much else and decided to take on the challenge myself. And I started with an image of a servant in England in the 18th century. He's carrying a lap dog, a tray with a glass of wine

and he's smiling. And I recreated this in my bay window at home. And from that point, I reinterpreted black portraits for the next 50 days using what I had to hand at home and including some heirlooms some some quilts from my grandmother a cuckoo stick that's a cooking implement that my grandfather made it's used to stir the national dish of Barbados. And it became a voyage of rediscovery for myself, as well as connecting with these unseen figures in black art. And so the two went very well together.

And can you just tell us a little bit about how your career informed what eventually definitely became the kind of the theme of this work in Port Richard because it's about it's about where you've been placed isn't it yes in the minds of the audience in the minds of people who you're working with yeah definitely I think that the project is wholly informed by my performance background. I'm an opera singer and I've always negotiated this situation of being usually the only singer of colour in a choir or in a rehearsal room and that is changing, thankfully. But that definitely was the inspiration for wanting to explore this and connect with a side of my heritage that I've basically suppressed and pushed to one side because I wanted to fit in,

I wanted to appear to be normal and not want to talk about the things that- But also you've been asked to fit into something, haven't you? Yes, yeah. I mean, there are some quite painful anecdotes that you've put in the introduction to the book yeah about basically sometimes how you've been asked to kind of white up on stage in order to fit in with something that you didn't need to fit in with actually no yeah that was an experience where I tried something. I tried some whiter makeup to create a more uniform stage picture. Was that the term? Yeah, the term that came from above.

Who asked you to do that? That was a director. And I tried it. And then I felt really horrible after doing it. And so I went home and I typed black portraiture into a search engine and saw what came up and I was completely shocked to see that I could find figures who were as high status as the figure I was meant to be playing at the time on stage in history and I decided to challenge the Chevalier Saint-Georges, Joseph Boulogne, who was a composer, a violinist, a fencer and a polymath.

And he actually was my conduit for reimagining who I was on stage at that point and actually having the opportunity to think about myself differently within the context of Western art. Would you like to describe to us, and I know this is such a challenge on radio, but off we go, some of the pictures, the portraits in the book. I know that you've obviously got some favourites that you've marked out. Yes. I've got some favourites I marked out and I don't know whether we're going to manage to meet in the same place i do love your queen of sheba you taught me through the queen of sheba can i say i didn't think you were that convincing as the queen really i'm sorry to break it to you what about my hips did you use cream crackers in that one i don't know you've

got a good mop there there's a tablecloth in that one that came in in handy and lots of lemons hanging from my hips but it was probably the most challenging to take on and I kept seeing it and it was being suggested and I finally gave in quite late on in 2020 so I'd done lots before then and it was actually the most enjoyable one of the most enjoyable to do and I'm referencing the the fact that the grapefruit was created supposedly in barbados uh where my my ancestry lies um so i'm holding uh a grapefruit in my hand in instead of the the the orb um shiba is holding and uh it's probably one of the most funny images in the book

It would only be fair now to let you choose one rather than me choose one What would you choose? Well I've got my copy of the book open at the Paston Treasure which is one of my favourites, it's just filled with a whole lot of items that the Paston family

of Norfolk brought back from their various travels across the globe. The most expensive things that they owned and I chose to recreate this in my kitchen. It's the kitchen table and it's flooded with the things that are significant to me as a musician, as someone who has black British heritage and Caribbean heritage. The quilt you see at the back replacing the fabric curtain is a quilt that my grandmother made for each. She made one for each of her children.

So there are nine of these and this is the one that my my mum was given there's a union jack window blind that standing in for the pillar that's in the original and that was found in our house when we moved in instruments the the luggage that my family brought with them when they moved to the UK iconic black opera singers who were talismanic figures at the start of my career when I was studying I had these albums they were being thrown up by the Royal College of Music library at the time and I managed to get a few of them and stashed them in my halls of residence you've've got a jesse norman yes yeah there's jesse norman there's leontine price uh there's some schubert there there are afro hair products and um yeah lots of west african print fabrics as well and uh flowers from the garden and um yeah i i don't have

anything as expensive as the Pastons, but it's a pretty good representation of my past and my future as well, my present. Yeah. You also, the book is beautiful in its portraiture, but you include an important essay as well and an interview and your introduction. The essay Feeling in the Dark by Temi Odomusu. I thought it was absolutely brilliant because it draws our attention to what's happening when we go looking for things, which we now do through a search engine. And just the sentence, designed and then sustained by weary, biased humans, they, the algorithms, tend to follow our flaws. And this is the whole point,

isn't it? What you're trying to change yes yeah and so many of these portraits are still categorized by these offensive terms and i was actually seeing terms mentioned in my family archive uh going through the the family documents and seeing terms like mulatto but the term for a mixed race person, replicated in the catalogues of museums. And how could this be in 2020 or after that, now, that still portraits are categorised in this way? And so I was trying to subvert that and use that in my physicality, in the props that I was drawing together

and the conversations that were being had in each portrait. Do you feel that it's something that's actually changed you a bit? Because taking on all of those different people throughout history and feeling that you're in their world for a moment is actually quite a weighty thing, isn't it? It is, yeah. for a moment is actually quite a it is a weighty thing isn't it it is yeah and i sometimes feel like i've i've opened a can of worms and that they're with me now and i can't really shake them off they're all around the house the and all of the props that i used i i see it every day

still and so they're they're in dark corners of of rooms rooms in the house and in the garden, especially against the brick wall. And I think that they've become friendly ghosts in a way. Peter Brathwaite there talking about rediscovering black portraiture. And it's just a really, really lovely, I think we'd call it a coffee table book, wouldn't we? It's a hardback book that you can flick through, but it's fascinating when you read little bits and pieces about the portraits that he's recreating.

And because he is doing that challenge of using all of these household objects, some of them are just funny. They're just wry and funny. Yeah, he is. He's also an incredibly, he's just a very friendly and interesting man. And I think if there were more,

I just think opera needs to be, I don't really understand it. I've marveled at it. I have been fortunate enough to go to Glyndebourne a couple of times. I think it's beautiful. I think it's absolutely captivating. But you've no idea what's going on.

I don't know what's going on. No, I have no idea what's going on. We need more Peter Brathwaite, I think. Yeah, I think we do. Do you want another couple of questions? Well, yes, okay. For Jane and Fee, do you get a bit fed up with people carping that you have to provide balance

now you're not even at the BBC? Yeah. Okay. But on the other hand, no, forget it. Who is your favourite ever Strictly contestant? That's from Louisa. Gosh. Is that for us or for Shirley?

No, it's for Jane and Fi. Favourite ever Strictly contestant? Gosh. Well, I think Rose. I think Rose, who can't hear. I mean, that was just phenomenal. So I don't think you can really beat that in all honesty. Well, I thought Ed Balls was just delightful. Oh, for entertainment, that's completely phenomenal. So I don't think you can really beat that in all honesty. Well, I thought Ed Balls was just delightful.

Oh, for entertainment, that's completely different. Gangnam Style. I mean, I just really, really loved him. And actually, they played it again recently, didn't they? And I mean, it was actually quite good. You know, everyone was just kind of carried away with laughing at the time. But it's amazing that he managed to do that. He was good.

And that was before he had kind of delved into much more of his showbiz persona. So it still was quite remarkable that that could have been the Chancellor of this country. Absolutely. Isn't it funny, though, that there are obviously two branches of what was originally the same family. You've got the balls. You've got the balls. It's funny, isn't it? Yep.

There's a lot of balls in this. Okay. Do you want to go into Dom Jolly? And then we'll do some final questions after that. Can you tell we've got a train to catch? Double your money today because we've got Dom Jolly, who actually was very good because he made himself available this afternoon. We did say that Shappi Kaur Sandy would be on the programme,

but she wasn't able to be. So I hope she feels better soon. But Dom is the creator of, amongst other things trigger happy TV he's also a highly critically acclaimed travel writer and I think his latest book is going to be extremely popular it's certainly timely it's out in November it's called the conspiracy tourist and in the new year Dom is going to go on tour with this he's going to do a stage show now Now, he will present the first half, but he will give over the second to somebody he describes

as a well-known and highly respected conspiracy theorist. He is Dr Julian Northcote-Butfie, as you will have picked up because you're clever. It is, of course, just Dom again. Oh, I didn't realise that, actually. I hadn't picked that up at all. For Pete's sake, this is why I tried to... I thought I'd made it clear.

No. OK, but obviously he wouldn't invite a conspiracy theorist onto his stage show. Well, when you said that in the show, when it went out on air, I thought, that's a really good idea. Because you only have to do half a show, and that's very generous of him to just hand over a show to somebody else. You are sweet. It's him dressed up.

OK, this alleged Dr. Julian Northcote is somebody who represents, no, he actually believes, this is Julian, who doesn't really exist, he believes that Big Pharma, and that's pharma with an F, are covering up for cows and some of their more aggressive forms of behaviour. So I asked Dom, who is a real person keep up at the back whether it was really true that he dom the real person had as he told the daily telegraph spent all the money he'd ever earned oh very much so yeah i've spent i spent about 12 years spending my money and had a lot of fun yes but most of it actually sort of doing what i consider

to be fun which is travelling around the world. And that's, I mean, this is my, the book I'm here for is my fifth travel book. So it doesn't come cheap, travel writing, because you've got to get there and you've got to finance yourself and you're not working while you're doing it. So a lot of it's been spent doing that. So it's sort of technically investing in myself, shall we put it that way. OK, well, I mean, you look well on it. Thank you. Mind you, you haven't had much of a journey because you live in Cheltenham.

I do. As a travel writer, this is probably the shortest travel I've ever done. I'm five minutes walk from here. This is my personal Glastonbury. The writer's room here is like being VIP backstage at Glastonbury, except it's kind of, it's more sedate. It's better for my age. I am from the northwest of England, and I do, I think Cheltenham, by some margin, is England's most respectable town. Oh I don't want to live in a respectable town. Well I'm afraid you do. There's a total absence of riffraff. Actually that's not true. Oh really? Yeah it's not true. I can give you some statistics about how it's got the most

haves and have-nots in one place. Okay so tell me. But you just don't see them here. Well I've got them to hand but you don't see them here at the Lit Festival. They're all hanging around if you dare to venture out. But weirdly, I mean, I sort of agree with you. When I grew up, I grew up in Beirut in the middle of a civil war, quite an exciting life. And my granny lived in Cheltenham. And my first memory of really coming to England was coming to my granny's 90th at the Queen's Hotel just down the road. And honestly, Cheltenham then was God's waiting room. It was just people back from the colonies hanging around waiting to go to was God's waiting room it was just people back from the colonies hanging around waiting to go to the great beyond and it was pouring of rain I just remember looking

around thinking if I ever live here I'll kill myself and here I am 55 incredibly happy because Cheltenham is now hip not hip operation it is very it's cool honestly it's become a digital nomad centre I promise you Cheltenham's where it's at. Yeah, well, it's a Digital Nomad Centre, possibly because it is also the home of GCHQ. Well, that helps. My favourite Cheltenham fact is GCHQ do reply to tweets. I once tweeted them. I was a bit drunk, but I did tweet them and I said, Dear GCHQ, I've forgotten my Mac password. Can you help? And to be fair, they replied. They said, no, we can't. But they didn't say they didn't have it, which is quite good. I'm sure they've got it. Yeah, of course they do.

Actually, to be honest, I've got it. Yeah, everyone's got it. Okay, let's talk about the subject of your latest travel book, because you've absolutely picked, it's a fabulous subject for now. It's very zeitgeisty. Terrifyingly. But can I just ask, it's about conspiracy theories. It's called The Conspiracy Tourist. Now, were the conspiracy theories, I don't know, during the dark days of World War II, for example? Yeah, well, I mean, there have been conspiracy theories, frankly, forever. If you look at the sort of the daddy of them all, which is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, very weirdly, that was nicked from a play written by a man called Maurice Jolly, spelt the same as me, so in a sense...

But no relation. No relation at all. But actually his was a play and his was a sort of satirical play. And that was then, extracts of that were taken and used in that. So, and the Spanish flu, for instance, first world war, there were masses of conspiracy theories about it being.

So conspiracy theories have always been, I think a thing and people have always been unrightly suspicious of stuff. I think the way I put it, which is a bit rude, is I think every village has always had an idiot, but now the idiots can all speak to each other, and that's the problem. And they're having conferences, and they're online. Oh, yes.

And now the idiots won't even speak to anyone else in the village. They just speak to fellow village idiots. And that's sort of what happens. But the terrifying thing about conspiracies is they're not wrong. I mean, most of the people I met who were into conspiracies are not idiots. They're quite smart people. They're just looking at the wrong targets. I mean, there's no question that governments have conspired to hide things from people,

that companies have done terrible things. But it's just they're going for the wrong targets. The idea that Bill Gates is putting something in our brains so that he can get all the information out of Sharon from Peterborough. He's not interested, Sharon. He really isn't. I mean, look at the government.

They can't even organise a park. You know, HS2, they can't organise parking. The idea that this mass conspiracy is there is crazy. But you know, you and I are members of the elite. We are members of the elite. We're mainstream media sitting here at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. I keep being told that. I keep saying, how much are they paying you? I go, please, someone tell me where to of the elite. We're mainstream media sitting here at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. I keep being told that. I keep saying, how much are they paying you?

I go, please, someone tell me where to send the invoice. I'm doing this for free today. No one's paying me for it. I wish they would. Okay, so that is the intellectual equivalent of trying to nail that jelly to the wall because you cannot win an argument with people who believe these theories. You can't. And very cleverly keyed up because that's the first chapter of my book, really. I was sort of thinking, how do I tackle... Because I spend a lot of time arguing conspiracy theorists online, just because they irritate me. Because conspiracy theories used to be quite fun.

I mean, it depends what you call a conspiracy theory, but the Loch Ness Monster, W. Land of the Moon, fairly harmless in a sense. But now they're the body politic. You've got Trump, you've got people like that, just absolutely using it. And even recent political stuff here people basically saying well that's what they want to do and you go well that's not true but tax on meat exactly meat tax at the meat raffle you know but there probably has been a tax on meat so but there's

not going to be one but anyway the point is it's very difficult to argue it and so I thought how do I start and I started my book quite light. And I looked through a list of conspiracies. And my favorite one I came up with, that I came across, see, someone will say I came up with it now, was that Finland didn't exist. I really liked that as a concept. Where did you find that theory? Well, there's a there's this woman that wrote this, that put this fantastic pyramid of sort of levels of conspiracies where it starts a bit weird. And then it gets weirder and weirder and you end up in sort of hideous anti-semitic gibberish

so I sort of did one from each level of the pyramid and And the the Finland didn't exist one was along with sort of was Paul McCartney cloned while he was part of the Beatles and things Like that, but it came originally from someone who'd written someone was asked on reddit What were things that parent the parents told them they didn't know was true or not. And someone said that his parents had told him Finland didn't exist. And this thing spun off into a sort of, it became a subreddit and a subreddit and it became enormous and most people I think were taking it as fun. But as usual, these things, 10% of people took it as fact.

And 10% is enough. It's plenty enough. So unfortunately, my wife, I do a lot of travelling for my books, and I always go on my own because I like to travel on my own, and travel writing, you have to be on your own. And my wife said, enough's enough. Kids have flown the nest. I've got to come with you.

Where are we going? So I said, Finland. And she said, why? And I said, we've got to prove it exists. And I think it'll be the last trip she's coming with me. She didn't enjoy it. I feel immense sympathy for this lady. I've never met her.

No, she's lovely. My heart goes out. Stacey, isn't it? She is, yeah. She's Canadian, so she's got to be nice. It's in their blood. No, she's lovely. My heart goes out to Stacey, isn't it? She is, yeah. She's Canadian, so she's got to be nice. It's in their blood. Yeah, but we don't know whether Canada really exists, do we? It does.

I've been there, because again, in the book, I went to Canada. So you say. Well, that's the problem, because when I got to Finland, I did genuinely do it as a sort of a way of trying, because it is almost impossible to argue with a conspiracy theorist, because you're either in on it, or you've been paid to do it, or, oh, that's your truth you know it's the moment that horrible term alternative facts came out we've lost we've the world is it's all gone it really is for you it's gone i'm jane

you're jane sorry but it doesn't really matter but i have listened to you two so much that's why i've got excited are you really yeah i don't think you exist actually. I think it's both of you. Yeah. I'm sorry about that. It's all right. You're not the first Dom. Dim. Yes.

I was reaching there for a male comedian's name I could have used for you, which would have upset you. But I couldn't think of one. So that moment has passed. I failed that test. So back to Finland. You're there with the long suffering Stacey. It is actually fascinating this how do you begin to prove that the place where you are currently resident exists well that was kind

of the point I you look around and there's things that appear to be in Finnish but how do I know Finnish is a thing a real thing I asked when I first got there I asked where am I to the immigration person who looked a little confused told me to ask a policeman but I said where am I and he said you're in Helsinki I said but can I be sure of that? So immediately there's problems there. People think, should we let him in? And then he says, yes, you are. And he put a stamp in my passport. But if you're a conspiracy theorist, you think, well, they're all in on it, aren't they? They're all part of the process. People feel that what we think is Finland are actually actors brought in from Tallinn in Estonia and Sweden. Now, my Scandinavian

language knowledge is none anyway. So, I mean, they could have been speaking Swedish. I didn't think they were. It's almost impossible. And I knew it was impossible the moment I went. I just asked everyone when I went there, where are we? And then we had these sort of curious arguments. And the Finns are quite strange. They spend a lot of time in the dark and in the cold. They quite enjoyed the sort of philosophical. I had quite a long discussion with a gentleman in a sauna about whether we were in a Finnish sauna and he enjoyed it well so you say yeah well so I say I mean this is all untrue I didn't even go to Finland that's the joy okay I mean this is actually now beginning to really mess with my mind yeah um so at the I know you're doing a tour you're going to lots of places

there'll be people in the audience yeah the people people in the audience, Dom, will be like you and me. I hope not. Well, I wonder, if you're a fully paid-up member of the I Believe in a Conspiracy Brigade, they're not going to go anywhere near your show. Well, you would if you wanted to heckle, but I hope they come. And anyway, in the interest of fairness, my tour starts, thank you for promoting it, February, March,

and it's called the Conspiracy Tour, rather than Tourist. But in it, for the balance of fairness, for the interest of fairness my tour starts thank you for promoting it february march and it's called the conspiracy tour rather than tourist but in it uh for the balance of fairness for the interest of fairness i am doing the first half but the second half will be done by one of britain's foremost conspiracy theorists don't know if you're familiar with him dr julian northcote who wrote the book cows britain's secret killers are you familiar with him uh tell me more well i mean he's just he's a leading conspiracy He's not been taken very seriously. He lives in Cirencester. He wrote this book about... Is this about how the day the cows will turn? Well, they already have turned.

Can I just say, this is what happens, because we were just talking about Dr Julian Northcote and his research into cows being Britain's secret killers. And what happens? The line goes down. Now, that is not a coincidence. That really isn't. Big pharma have got their paws everywhere. happens the line goes down now that is not a coincidence that really isn't big farmer have got their uh their paws everywhere i started off this interview from one position yeah i find myself moving uneasily towards another this is the impact you have on people i just i just think you need to be you need to be open-minded you know you need to not not close your mind to all this

stuff because a lot of it's going on and we just don't know. I certainly don't know anything. But as we speak, actually, and veering now slightly nervously into really important and serious territory, you grew up in the Lebanon. I did. The news is just dreadful. It's appalling, yeah. I don't think it matters where your sympathies lie. I think we can all just acknowledge that this is just terrible with potentially devastating consequences for millions of people. This is the problem with conspiracy theories. We can laugh about them. We can worry

about the people who are vulnerable to them. But there are far too many real life consequences. Oh, 100%. And again, just with what's happening in Israel and the terrible events in Israel, that there's, I grew up in Lebanon, obviously in the middle of a civil war. There was always, there's a very Arab belief in the hidden hand, of sort of nothing happens without a reason, that somebody, you know, America, China, the Muppets, are responsible for whatever's going on. And that's a really strong belief in the Middle East.

In the Middle East, no one believes anything happens just by chance, that stuff happens. And stuff just does happen. Now, this was more than stuff. This was clearly planned and presumably promoted by Iran and stuff. And that was, I suppose, a conspiracy, although not a very hidden conspiracy. But yeah, I mean, my worry, particularly at the Middle East

at the moment, is from a selfish point of view, is that it looks like Hezbollah are now having a go, which means that Lebanon gets in the firing line. They are the group based in Lebanon? Yeah, I mean, you sort of have one for each thing. So you have the PLO in the West Bank, and then you have Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and Hezbollah is particularly in the south of Lebanon. And I think Hamas's aim was to get everyone involved.

I'm hoping Hezbollah will hold back, but there are signs that things are happening on the border so that's a particular concern to me, selfishly. Dom Jolly and his book comes out in November. So can I just get this straight Jane, is the notion that some people don't believe Finland exists actually a joke as well? No. No that's for real? There are some people around who don't believe that Finland is a real place. But as he points out, you go there and you try to prove that you're in Finland. No one believes you. It's actually impossible.

Because you go up to someone and say, where are we? And they go, well, you're in Helsinki. But where are we really? Well, Helsinki is the capital of Finland. I mean, it is actually, it's one of a number of questions that truly cannot be satisfactorily answered if you have a mind to challenge absolutely everything

yes but I would also argue that nobody who's really sane and rooted in normality should have the time in their day to consider whether or not Finland exists. I mean, have you ever stood in your kitchen and just suddenly thought, oh, I wonder whether Finland is actually there?

I haven't, no. But as you know... You're very busy. I'm incredibly busy. And I mean, I've often got a committee meeting at the Flat Earth Society to go to. So, you know, I don't have a lot of time. No spare time at all. No, I know. Do you have a personal vision for the future? If so, what is it? That's my final question

via somebody who's visited the Times Radio tent. Personal vision of the future. At the moment, I'm very much focused on getting into the taxi, getting on the train and enjoying my wrap, which I had the good sense to buy in advance. Look through the questions and find one to ask from there. That's from lovely other people who've bothered to do something, Jay.

And you'll get to your wrap in just a minute. What's your favourite flavour of ice cream? Oh, mint choc chip. That's the same one as this person here. Oh, spooky. When many of the major issues of our time are so well known, Fi, why do we collectively seem so incapable of actually doing anything about them? Come on, 10 seconds. That's a bit existential, isn't it? Oh, you can do it. Come on, the University of Kent at Canterbury,

its reputation rests upon your answer here. You're a very mean woman, aren't you? I don't know. Well, it's just groupthink, isn't it? I just wish we could all just get on. Yeah, that would be nice. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. No. Well, Cheltenham, thank you. You've been good to us.

And we are back in our normal location tomorrow with the guest they all wanted, but we got Times Radio's top DJ. What is his name? Matt Chorley. Matt Chorley is with us tomorrow. But tomorrow I'm going to call him Matthew all the way through. None of this Matt, none of this chumocracy going down.

It'll be Matthew Chorley and he'll answer our questions. I'll tell you what I would do as a future vision for the world, Jane. I'll try and make everybody just spend five minutes a day properly imagining what somebody else's life is like. So you can't think about yourself for five minutes in the day. You can pick anybody else you like, but you've properly got to think about what their life might be like. And about the impact you might have on them if you ever meet them. No, no, because it's not you. Oh, it's not me. No, it's not you. Just you have to properly think what somebody else I just also

just want to honour the fact and it's not linked that you go to a hotel I had the full English breakfast and my baked beans were in a ramekin

and I just think that's something I'd never do at home but I do appreciate that little bit of that just touch a glass it's not going to work

kids is it it's not going to work the beans are contained it's not working and they don't touch other parts of the breakfast unless you want them to okay okay right thank you very much for listening jane and fee at times dot radio we're back tomorrow in the company of matthew chorley

and we're very much looking forward to it um thank you for joining us at this event i have to confess that this morning i was woken up by the smell of rising egg in the hotel. Do you know what I mean? OK, bye, everybody. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe.

And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies.

A lady listener. I'm sorry.