Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Off Air X Therapy Works

Episode Date: September 25, 2026

Welcome to this Off Air X Therapy Works crossover episode! Therapy Works is a podcast about life’s challenges and mental health, and has recently joined The Times podcast family. Jane and Fi are joined by psychotherapist and Therapy Works host Julia Samuel. They cover how to find a good therapist, whether therapy should have an end date, the stiff upper lip, and overthinking at 3am. Therapy Works is available wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Off Air Producer: Eve SalusburyTherapy Works Producer: Georgie Rutherford Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Julia Samuel is a brilliant woman. She's an esteemed psychotherapist. She's a Times contributor. She's a presenter of the podcast Therapy Works, a podcast about mental health and some of life's challenges. She hears from both known and unknown voices. I've been on Therapy Works myself. I've really enjoyed it. It has now joined the Times podcast family. Welcome Therapy Works. Julia spoke to Fee and I for an off-air Therapy Works mash-up episode. And we found out a little bit more. about Julia and her podcast. So Julia, why don't you tell us your exciting news? You're coming into our stable, I believe. I am coming into the Times deck of podcasts, which I am very excited about. And this is a weird connection. But I used to work in a big organisation in the NHS,

and I worked with a charity, Child Breavement, UK. And I've been working on my own for about 10, 12 years. and although you really couldn't compare the organisations coming into a system and an organisation where you can have a lanyard and... You can't beat a lanyard. I love a lanyard.

You know, when I was at St Mary's, I got Tempe off at Costa Coffee with my lanyard. It beeped open doors. As I walked into the... I don't get that here, do I? You won't get a lanyard, I'm afraid. No, but get a lanyard. discount either. No, I just need to set off. Jane and I...

What do I need to show? She just have to say you work here. Okay. You can get money off in the Ittsum down by London Bridge Station. Okay. And Jane and I are here entirely for the discounted gym membership. Yes. Well, I can see it's really doing the business. Be careful, Julia. You've only just joined the organisation. And we need picking up with very low on confidence. We need you to help. We need to help. We need to help. Obviously, you need a lot of therapy between you. You probably need couples therapy, actually.

Oh, God. Do you what? I love that you've mentioned that because sometimes I think we do. Actually, we've been working together now for 10 years and we work together every day. I spend more time with Jane than my partner. I mean, it's just a truth.

Yes, she's your work wave. Well, my marriage only lasted 11 years. We're very close. Dangerous territory. Close to a record. Can you tell us about your podcast and what people might get out of it? Yes.

So the podcast is called Therapy Works and it invites well-known voices like Mary Berry who is the first episode who is an absolute I mean she's the most marvelous woman I want to be more Mary Berry and we ask them what is a particular challenge they are facing or have faced and then through the challenge that they talk about

we learn about what they find difficult what supports them to manage it and what they've learned from it and I think the most personal is often the most universal so when they hear her talking about her son Will died we can understand what grief feels like because we recognise what she's saying in ourselves but the other thing about the podcast

is that we also have unheard voices people who've just written in who are facing a particular challenge it may be that they have anxiety or that they can't find a job or that they have been diagnosed with cancer. There is no limit to what people's challenges are. And they are given as much presence and time on the podcast

as well-known voices. And I don't think we hear, I mean, we do through your show actually, but often I don't think we hear enough of kind of real people that we can really see ourselves through in that way as well. I would completely agree with you on that and of course the way that we hear from other people now

is often when they're on send. They're sending out their message on social media. It's not a true reflection of ourselves and undoubtedly it's making it quite hard, isn't it? To be very honest about all of the stuff that

actually most of us are going through. I agree and I think the big thing about being on transmit it is that if our kind of window of receive is really narrowed, our capacity to be in relationship is also narrowed. So I think what's important about the conversations that I have with my guests is that you hear that by someone, I mean it's therapeutic, it isn't therapy, by someone kind of getting in touch what they're finding difficult, voicing it, and then seeing how I respond to it, changes their relationship with it

and then they have an expanded understanding of themselves and then they go to a different place themselves that they didn't even know was there and so I think people can see the value of that for themselves and then there's a third bit of the podcast which is

my two therapists daughters one is a child psychotherapist Emily and the other is an adult psychotherapist Sophie they get to give me what they call feedback and so they they can really give me a hard time and wonder with me why I didn't do this

or remind them of the... I can't swear, can I. No. Shit things I did as their mother. And then I get to go, oh God! Things I didn't remember. So that is where my humility has to come to the fore. And can anyone benefit from...

therapy because there are lots of people much more I think well I think I'm right in saying many more people have it now than at any time in our history I would imagine yes but can human history in human history yes but settle for that can anybody benefit but or is it a mindset if you go into it thinking this is rubbish it probably won't work but if you're much more likely to embrace the concept chances are it'll be good for you so there's two very well researched aspects of that one is it's the quality of the relationship with the therapist that will really influence your outcome. But the other most significant aspect of therapy working is your investment in the therapy. Often parents are encouraged to go into therapy by their adult children.

Are they? Yes. I genuinely didn't know that. Yes. Are you surprised by that? I'm not that surprised just because I think there's a better understanding of the benefit of therapy in young adults now than there ever has been before. And we often see our parents as being the source of our own anxiety. So if we're bold enough to understand therapy or think we understand therapy, I think we might be bold enough to go, you need it, love. But also, if you think about it, because most of us are living longer, your relationship with your children as adults, is much longer than when they were children. So sometimes it can actually be transformative

for a whole family system. But so the point that I was going to make was that if you are open and invest in the therapy, then you're much more likely to benefit from it. How do you find a good therapist? There isn't one form of accreditation, is there? So what are we looking for when we first start our search? So you do want a therapist that has accreditation.

So there are different accreditations. There's UKCP, which is the psychotherapy accreditation. There's BACP, which is Association of Psychotherapists. So you do want to see that someone has been trained and has an accredited qualification because someone, it isn't, someone can go and say, I'm a counsellor and have done a three-week course. So it's really important they see people who are accredited.

And should you test out a therapist? Yes, okay. So I think often if you go to one therapist, for whatever reason, they may remind you of your worst teacher at school or they may be a rubbish therapist, but that one doesn't work. And don't let that put you off therapy. You don't go and try on one dress and think I'm never going to wear a dress.

So go on and try the others until you find one that kind of suits you. And you have therapy too, don't you? I do. I have to have supervision. So I have... Well, explain it because I never really get this. What is this? No.

Well, I think we should all have debriefs and supervision, actually. I think people, particularly who are in charge of the world, should have supervision and debriefs. Oh, but they're just not self-aware enough to have it, are they? No. No. So I have three supervisors. I have a peer supervision, so we are both kind of colleagues and we talk about that difficulty or things that we're doing with our clients.

Then I have someone who oversees my whole practice and to make sure that my balance is right that I'm not doing too much trauma so that I'm then not kind of fully available for my other clients. And then because I am a trauma therapist, I have as well, I have an EMDR therapist, a supervisor. And that is, remind, eye. Eye movement desensitization reprocessing.

So what they do is, so I am the instrument of the relationship. And so if I'm psychologically kind of open and healthy by talking about a session with a client that was very difficult, if I have supervision on that, I work out, was that me, was that them, was something I need to learn about, what can I improve. I then go back into the relationship with a sort of clarity and an openness that means I work more effectively. And should you ask your therapist to give you an idea of the timeline of therapy or is it impossible to do that? You should definitely contract. So you should have an assessment session where you work out what is the issue I'm bringing, what do I want from therapy, what's the outcome I most expect from therapy? And you would normally contract a number of

sessions. It could be four sessions, six sessions, and then you have a review, and then you decide, have I got what I wanted? Am I done? Or you recontract? Because I think some people are fearful of embarking on therapy because they don't know when it will stop. And you do hear, and I think probably it's a bit of a pastiche of therapy, the people who cannot live without their therapist, who are in therapy for their whole lives. Yes. I mean, I think different people and different needs

require different types of therapy. So you could say that someone who sees someone at weekly therapists for the rest of their life, it's like going to the garage with your car. And it's like going to the gym and it's maintenance for your mind. And that 50 minutes really sets you up so that you don't mess up your love relationships,

you work better at work because you have someone you can kind of take the residue and the muck of your life and put it down there and go out and live and be more open and effective. So, you know, for some people, that maintenance is really useful. Most people can't afford that. And most people have a particular issue, whether it's the death of a parent

or a difficult relationship with their partner or with themselves or whatever it is that they just want to have a better understanding of and a different way of responding to because how they're living with it now isn't working for them. I think it was it last year that we did an event together here at the times and there was a very big audience and a very involved audience and some of whom had been through some, God, I mean,

some truly terrible experiences. And forgive me, I don't know whether you said it at the public event or to me earlier on before we started talking. This sounds a bit like my children. Hang on, I'm just going to tell you some terrible thing that you said. You were talking about the stiff upper lip because we're told now that you've got to get everything out there. You've got it's emot, you know, it doesn't matter.

You can cry if you like, blah, blah, blah. Some people think you have to cry. And you actually said there isn't, it's not actually, the stiff upper lip wasn't so bad if it works for you. So I have a very strong view about the stiff upper lip. which is that all of us need a stiff upper lip so that when we go to work or we go out in the world we have a kind of protection that enables us to operate.

What is not useful is a stiff upper lip in your most intimate closest relationships where you're not fully known and you're not honest and you aren't able to express what you feel. You don't allow yourself to be known. No, so you're too defended and you don't allow yourself to be known. I think there is real risk in not having a stiff up of a lip

and taking all of what you feel and pouring yourself out in places to people who don't care who are insensitive and will make you feel worse. Yeah, and who will judge you for it? And judge you for it and they'll call you something

like you're pathetic or wet or a snowflake. Or a snowflake. Yeah. We've got lots of questions for you from our listeners so we will get through as many as we can. I think Julia's answered the first question. I think so too.

Yeah. So I hope whoever sent this in asking you about how to protect your own mental health, how you protect your own mental health. So I do that, but I also do it by, so how I think of myself is a system. Whatever goes into my system, what I listen to, what I watch, who I spend time with, how I move my body, what I eat, how much sleep I have. All of that helps me be more robust to do my job. So I exercise quite a lot. Sounds really boring, but I love exercising. And I watch funny things on telly, listen to funny things.

I don't watch scary stuff, drive my husband mad. And I intentionally do things that give me joy, whether that's playing with my dog or being with friends. That helps me stay robust. Another question comes in, and I love this one. We will allow you to remain anonymous. How do I move on from a friend of 10 years who I support, but they lash out whenever I share my own challenges?

Well, it's interesting to call that person a friend when relationships are relationships. They're reciprocal. So you both, one and one should make three in a relationship. So if you have a relationship with this person who can't respond to you in a way that is, kind and empathic and sensitive and doesn't listen to you but actually judges you, I would really think about whether this is a relationship that you want to go on investing in.

Maybe this is someone that you can see and spend time with and you don't have to have a big dramatic kind of bust up. But, you know, where you put your time and attention is where you get your outcome. Do you want to be putting your precious time into that person? I think friendship is often the hardest thing to manage in your life, isn't it? We almost have many rules about parenting, many rules about partnerships, very few rules about friendships. Yes, I do. I mean, and also I think they're the sort of untold love story that when we have really good friendships, they can save us when nothing else can. They're so important.

And they are a real predictor of our happiness and even our longevity. look at your friendship work friendship well as we all says it's our most lucrative friendship is awesome and we just don't that I mean what's it's good

we've got an extra incentive one and one makes more than three for you you said it Julia this is another anonymous question I got divorced about a year ago and I have met a wonderful new partner but I'm scared of getting hurt again I mean that's the human experience

isn't it is there anything you can do about that So, I mean, acknowledging it is really good that you feel that fear. And once you've been hurt, you kind of can't not know that you can be hurt. But also, don't run at this or run away from it. Go slowly. Like, be gentle with your heart and go step by step. And as much as you can, be open and honest with the person who's wonderful.

You know, say, I really like you and I'm really scared. and so kind of build this relationship slowly together and then you will be able to build a relationship that you have trust and love and connection and they might be feeling exactly the same way especially if it's a kind of later in life thing they're bound to have had a relationship before so you can ask them about that too

that's very good for you could maybe do my job no I absent you I so could do your job also I don't want to because of the lucrative thing Oh yes, that's true. That didn't work. And also, if you look at some of my decisions, do you don't really take any of my advice at all? This one, I think, is a really, really relevant one.

I have severe anorexia, and I'm struggling to cope with my mum being on weight loss jabs. There is a lot there. That's a lot, isn't it? I mean, I go in different directions with this. So, first of all, how we... This isn't to blame at all, but what we think about if we have anorexia

is the environment that you were brought up in that has given you a particular relationship with food or your body and weight and control. And so maybe in this family, she was influenced by a mother who had a kind of complex relationship with food and her body. So as a response, what I would think about is the two of them, maybe going for a war,

walk and talk and her saying to her mum, can we talk about how we both relate to food, that we both have a complicated relationship with food? What I'm aiming at saying and saying like it's stuck at the bottom of my boot is try and get what's underneath the waterline to be open and to discuss between them. And maybe even go to a kind of couple's therapist to talk about our family therapist to talk about how they eat, what their relationship with food is. What does that? I mean, I have not been asked that question before, but I was talking to a child psychologist the other day.

I have a kind of professionals meetup. And she was saying she is really worried about Manjaro and all the jabs affecting a whole generation of young people because they're being brought up in families where half the parents don't eat. Yeah. Because they're on the jabs, right, okay. Yeah, I think there's so much about those weight loss pills that we've yet to understand the consequences of.

I mean, apart from anything else, Juno, it is just sending out the message yet again that thin equals good. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of evidence that it doesn't. So I understand if you need to be on the weight loss jabs for your health, but for your vanity, I don't know. And that thing of how you, your internal world is far more profound and important to how you live in your external world than your waist size.

So begin to pay attention and nurture that rather than thinking it's, you know, a clothes size. Here's a good one What is a good I mean if you can answer this question You basically solved every issue on earth Anonymous asks what's a good technique To stop overthinking and spiraling I'm okay I sent this in

I'm asking on behalf of the It's 20 past three in the morning community And you wake up because you need the loo And then you just start thinking And you should never start thinking at that time So there are a couple of cognitive behavioural therapies little tools that I can suggest. One of them is called change the channel.

So you've got your spiraling video of, oh, I've mucked up yesterday, or I hate so-and-so, and put that on the image, you don't say TV screen, I do, your device, and take a breath, change the channel, and put on your device an image that is soothing and calming. Is it the sea, is it mountains, is it, you know, a warm experience, take a breath,

and then move your attention somewhere else. So read your book or go for a little walk. And then that, because that stops the spiral. Does that make sense? You don't look very convinced, Jane. Well, I'm thinking it's the middle of the night, you see. Well, fair enough. So the first bit works.

Yeah. But when you get stuck in bed, the thing is to get out of bed. Don't... So, okay. Sleep hygiene. If you've woken up and you haven't fallen back to sleep

after 20 minutes, the best advice is to get out of bed, go into another room and do something that distracts your mind with a low light, not your phone,

a book of poetry, something like that. So then you do the device exercise and then read your poetry and then go back to bed and it changes the channel or you could just call me

will you be on your phone nearby I wouldn't answer no I'll be on my phone I just say I'll shut up I go to sleep at you in the morning you could try I could try it I could try you still don't look very impressed by the

but no it's not that it's not this is just my face dissatisfied dissatisfied client yeah The podcast, is it for the therapy positive, or is it for the therapy curious? People who think, oh, you know what, I'd quite like to dip my toes into this environment. I'd want to know more about it.

I think it's the human being curious. Okay. Because we love hearing other people's stories. We love hearing how people are in the world. And this is a really good source of stories. Well, it is, isn't it? because ultimately what your podcast does is, because I've been on it, is it draws out things that you didn't even know you were that concerned about.

Yes, it turns out you are. And things that you realised that actually you were better at than you realised as well. Some people feel me feeling, oh, I didn't really. I knew I did that. Yeah, that's good. Well, that's maybe something you could do at 20 past 3 in the morning. You could listen to yourself on Julia's podcast. It's a good idea.

Thank you very much. That's problem solved. Welcome properly to The Times is Stable. What a fantastic edition. Thank you very much indeed, Julia. I'm thrilled to be part of it and thank you for inviting me on to your wonderful. Great pleasure. Now put your land yard on. And go and get a cup-price drink. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.