Off Air... with Jane and Fi - One's bosom just does change.

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

Jane Mulkerrins is still sitting in for Fi, but who doesn't love a bit of Jane²? They chat well fitted bras, sexuality and brush up against book shelves... Plus, researcher and author Cat Bohannon discusses her book 'Eve: How The Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Jane, with another episode. It is an episode in our lives of off-air. We have a guest today. We didn't have one yesterday. We just had to battle through, didn't we? I think we've filled the time admirably. Yeah, I think we did too, but then I'm not sure we're all that objective. Politics intervened yesterday. Today, we do have a guest and it's Kat Bohannon, who's an American academic and author of a seminal work, Jane. I don't know if you've read it yet.

It's huge. So you will have to take a couple of months off to read it. But I urge you to certainly peruse at least Eve, how the female body drove 200 million years of human evolution. It does sound brilliant. Well, it is brilliant. I mean, I'm not sure this interview really does it justice just because there just isn't the time to really go into all the exquisite details included in this book. It took this woman a decade to write it, you know.

Is it as big as Sapiens, which I also haven't read? I haven't read that either. I think I did consider buying it. It's on my shelf, so I think by osmosis I'm going to learn something. I've probably absorbed all sorts of books just by brushing up against them in lending libraries. I think that's all you need to do. I'm very much looking forward to hearing your interview there with her.

Well, you'll learn a lot about your own body and how it works. Talking of books, you were going to try to read, in a very speedy fashion, Britney Spears' memoir. And it's been reviewed just about everywhere. There's a Telegraph review of it, there was a Guardian review. They pretty much say the same thing, which is, wow, this is quite a ride, isn't it? This poor woman.

It's called The Woman in Me. It's by Britney Spears. And you really feel she has written it? Well, she's definitely had some help writing it. Yeah, no, I'm not saying that, but it's her story. It is her story. And what a tragic story it is. I knew quite a lot about her and the conservatorship

and the things that she's been through because I watched the Free Britney, Framing Britney Spears, the new york times documentary that came out a couple years ago and but this goes so much deeper than that uh the details of what were done to her in that conservatorship i mean her father controlled what she eat what she wore who she went out with when she wanted to date someone she says in the book uh they would have to sign an nda they would have a background check run on them and they'd have to have a blood sample before she could go out on a first date with them her father controlled I mean literally every part of her life while profiting

enormously of everything she did and forcing her out on tour but also it's just you see the way in which it's funny she comes across in the book particularly in the early part as being very young and very naive still and as the book goes on you do get a real sense of her voice and her rage at all the ways in which she has been dismissed and controlled while making pots and pots of money for other people her entire life i mean she writes really well about the the incident where she was supposedly going mad and shaving her head and she just had her two children taken off her and people were trying to, you know, medicate her, put her into hospital.

I mean, I think shaving your head publicly is probably the least that you would do in those circumstances. Yes, well, hear, hear to that. It's also clear that from a very early age, her life was a bit, I mean, her parents' marriage was terrible. There was a lot of shouting. He was a heavy drink age her life was a bit, I mean her parents marriage was terrible, there was a lot of shouting

he was a heavy drinker and then she became the biggest earner in the family when she was tiny bought them a house still before she was 20 it's really extraordinary in some ways I think she grew up very fast in other ways when you read the book

there's a real sense of arrested development because of being put out into the showbiz world as a young woman and everything that went with it. I mean, there's also the passages about Justin Timberlake and the abortion. He hasn't responded to anything in this book. But I have to say, Justin Timberlake does not come off well in this book. Well, no, he doesn't.

I mean, is Neil McCormick in The Telegraph? I should actually have a Times article in front of me, but for whatever reason, I've got one from The Telegraph. When I do my review later in the week, Jane, please read it out from beginning to end. No, but I will. I will certainly mention it, I can assure you. And Neil just draws attention to this occasion

where he basically insisted that she had an abortion and it was without anaesthetic of any kind. And by way of attempting to comfort her, Timberlake is said to have strummed his acoustic guitar. What a prat. My margin notes just contain so many exclamation marks around there. It's like that scene in the Barbie film, if you've seen it. I mean, it's almost comical, the idea

of this sort of boy band member strumming his guitar as she lies on the bathroom floor in agony, having a secret abortion because she couldn't go, they wouldn't let her go to hospital in case anybody knew. I mean, the whole thing is just gothic horror. It really is. Well, it really is. And I've kind of, I was just too old for

Britney Spears. I just didn't pay much attention to her. And I am going to read this book because I think it's another classic tale of double standards in the music world. And you were saying earlier to me that you thought it probably would still happen. Unfortunately, I do still think it would happen, yes. I think that particularly for women,

I think the music industry is so sexist and commodifies women's bodies, women's talent, women's youth in a way that men are allowed to be messy and honest and women are just not, and they are controlled and packaged and commodified. I will say, apart from, I think, Taylor Swift, who I think is extraordinary for the level of control she exerts over her career.

She seems to be in command now. Certainly now she's brought everything back from that guy. What was he? He had a really funny name. Scout? He's something like that, isn't he? Scooter. Thank you. Thank you, Eve. I tell you what, she's an absolute legend, isn't she?

She is. She's got it all at her fingertips. Well, she has, which is exactly what I don't have. So we do need to hear. But I will say it's definitely worth a read. It won't take you very long. It's not a difficult read, but it is, I think, an important read, actually. I mean, she's such a huge figure in the pop culture of the early noughties. And, you know, she's only 41.

And you think of everything that's happened to her. Yeah. It's a very cautionary tale as well about the entertainment industry. I wasn't thinking of entering it. Well, I suppose loosely speaking, I'm in it. I find you very entertaining. Cheers.

And I certainly think I'm more or less in command of what... Actually, it's a serious point to be manipulated in the way she was when she was so young by some people who should have had her best interests at heart. Ugh, the whole thing is stinky. It really is. Okay, we were talking yesterday about,

have you seen, it's from our regular correspondent in the States, Ruthie, who's talking about the New York subway. Have you seen that one? Oh, no, I haven't. Jane Mulcairns will know this, she says. We were talking yesterday about how grim you were beginning to find the subway in the States, having previously thought of it as pretty good or reasonably safe.

Well, it was always grim, but it got a lot worse. Well, Ruthie says it's grim because absolutely nobody pays the fare and so consequently the MTA has got no money for repairs and upkeep. Instead of the tube-style tall barriers, the New York transit system has opted for turn styles so small that even geriatrics can hop over them in a single move. This is very true.

I've seen it happen. I've seen people with sticks manage to leap over those barriers. She also says this also means that the homeless population can sneak into the stations to keep warm or sleep on the trains. I rarely see the police at stations and they never arrest anybody for turn-style jumping, or so I thought. One reason I pay, aside from being an upstanding

citizen, is because I was once caught for fair evasion. I'd found a metro code on the pavement, saw it still had a couple of days travel on it. It did say student on the card, but I'm fairly petite and moderately deluded, so I thought I could pass as one. What I didn't realise was that this student card was for school children up to the age of 11. As I swiped the card and moved through the gate, a police officer approached me with a look of disdain reserved only for the type of imposter who thinks she can use a child's Metro card at the age of 38. She goes on to say she's learned her lesson, doesn't do that anymore. I will say that she is right about the numbers of fair dodgers.

Yeah. And a huge absence, not just of police, but of staff of any sort on those stations. I, even during the day, I've been in stations where people are defecating and you don't know really what's happening. There's no one to tell. It's one of the reasons they can feel quite edgy late at night. But I will also say the MTA is also enormously corrupt. There was a wonderful investigation into it in New York Magazine a few years ago. And, you know, the fares that they do collect, who knows where they go?

It's notoriously corrupt and incredibly badly managed. Right, we don't need an allegedly in there? We can just keep that in, can we? Well, so that New York Magazine said, according to New York Magazine. OK, I think that's probably got us covered. Just talking about travelling here on public transport in London, I can't speak for the rest of the country, although Mersey Rail,

I can speak for them, they've just got some new trains. They're absolutely lovely. They don't smell. There was something very distinctive about the smell of Mersey Rail. It seems to have cleared up, or at least it's not on the new trains. Anyway, why was I saying... Oh, I know, because I've noticed a marked increase in the number of people begging on the London Underground. And there has to be a reason for this.

It did ebb away. It is now very much back. And you get these very, I mean, they are desperate souls and they sort of shuffle down the carriages, sometimes holding a sign. It's just, and if we're honest, we all do that. Our body language is, it's rather, we are pathetic as passengers because we all just do everything in our power

not to take a damn bit of notice. And none of us have any change anymore because of cards. I don't have a fiver. I have remembered when I have some coins on me, which is rare, but to be able to have them so that I can give them to people who are begging because I do think, I don't know what people who beg rely on now. I have to say, when I moved to the US in 2010, which was just a few months after the coalition government had got in,

I know that in London, they were very proud, Labour were very proud of the fact that they had pretty much eradicated rough sleeping. There was homelessness, of course, there was long-term homelessness, but they had pretty much eradicated rough sleeping. There was homelessness, of course. There was long term homelessness. But they had pretty much eradicated rough sleeping and I was very shocked when I moved back in 2021 to see the level of visible homelessness

that we see now. We've had years of austerity and I think you can really track that. The evidence is there. Happier news from the Republic of Ireland, from Sevda, who says, Jane, I live in Galway.

Jane, she actually says, hello, Jane, I live in Galway. We don't have a tube. But in Dublin, they have what's called, now I'm going to get this pronunciation wrong, Lewis. Lewis. Lewis. Lewis.

Yes, Lewis is Irish for speed and pronounced Lewis, she says, in all fairness. So the locals have renamed it the Daniel Day. Very good. That is very good. Galway's my native land. Is that? Oh, you're Markerans from Galway.

Yes, from Galway. Right. I want to make an apology. Is this about lesbians? It's not about lesbians. We'll get on to them in a minute. I want to get on to lesbians. Yes, well, we will.

First of all, I'm sorry for being repetitious and for being annoying to Caroline, who usually loves your guests, but has apparently taken against me. What have you done? I'm sure she won't be the last to do so. So yesterday she was triggered by my reference to jet lag as mind over matter. So apparently when I first said this on the podcast some months ago, that's the thing I'm really sorry about. Well, it was probably me making you say it again. So listen, I'm also sorry. Really sorry. So Caroline says when she heard it yesterday, she was suffering the most horrendous

jet lag, having recently returned from Europe to Australia, where she lives. Anyway, listening while on an early morning walk because I was unable to sleep past 3.30am, dealing with two very tired children and a tired husband. I was incandescent with rage to hear Jane M refer to the jet laggers in my mind. I assure you it is a very real thing particularly when a trip to the US or Europe takes anywhere between 13 and

30 hours. I was then in too fragile a state to write to you, Caroline says, but when I heard her repeat the statement today, I decided I was mentally stable enough to put pen to paper, so to speak. Jane, I am willing to forgive you, but please, for the sake of Antipodeans

or anyone who lives a long way from anywhere else, stop saying jet lag is all in our minds. I am very sorry, Caroline. I've also spent a long time in Australia and New Zealand and all I can say is I won't mention it again, but maybe I could send you some melatonin. I'm a big fan. Helps reset your body clock.

Yeah, you've said that. To make it up. Can I make it up to you, Caroline? Let us know. Yeah. That's basically, that's a bribe. Yeah. If you send her melatonin, does she promise to keep quiet?

I don't know. I mean, where would I be if I couldn't repeat myself? I certainly wouldn't be here. Not on the radio. No, definitely not on the radio. Right, sexuality, because we were talking yesterday. Well, we had a really interesting email from an anonymous correspondent just saying, well, the gist of it, and I'm slightly hesitant to paraphrase it,

was just that she, I think it was 41 or 42? 43. 43, okay, had started dating a woman. It was the first time she'd ever done it, and she doesn't ever think she'll look back. Absolutely. Life-changing. That was very much the gist. Okay, and she the first time she'd ever done it, and she doesn't ever think she'll look back. Absolutely. That was very much the gist. OK. And she wondered why other women hadn't done it or perhaps had not considered it, whatever the reason might be. Interesting response to this.

Anonymous says, Have you heard of comput, compulsory heterosexuality, whereby women are fed the norm so much as we grow up that we never question whether we're attracted to men or women. I think this happened to me. I decided I was attracted to all genders in my early 40s but I think I'd always been but had never put a name to it or thought about it in great detail

as I really wouldn't have known where to start and had always dated men. As soon as I decided I was going to try and date women, this is where life gets complicated. I love this. I met a man who I consider to be very emotionally intelligent compared to my previous boyfriends. I'm going to stick with him for now. I like the for now. Yeah, it's early days. But I would date any gender from this point on. I think that email is absolutely wonderful. And I think Anonymous is probably right. I think we are fed that norm, but I also think that's particularly perhaps an age thing.

As we were saying yesterday, I don't think young people today are fed that norm or accepting that norm. And I think the world has changed and I think homosexuality what i do i think the world has changed and i think homosexuality particularly amongst women is hundreds of thousands of times more acceptable than even 25 years ago well it wasn't lesbianism was so invisible it wasn't even banned no because queen victoria didn't believe that women would ever go to bed with each other i mean i think

about this i wonder about i there was, when I was growing up, there was a couple of women who lived together in our street and I suppose, I think, I can't remember what they were called or actually I can remember but I won't say and I have no idea

what they're, and I think, I was trying to, in the middle of the night a couple of weeks ago, I was going through all the old neighbours that I remember

from the 1960s and 70s. Is that your getting to sleep tactic? Well, it kind of is. They suddenly popped into my head and I thought, oh yeah, actually, what was going on there? I mean, by the way, more power to them. They were slightly, I remember they were very frightening. We weren't allowed to ride

our bikes past their house because they didn't like the noise that kids made. They sound very wise and sensible. Maybe it was just me they didn't like. On the same note from yesterday's discussion, there is another very good email, Dear wise and sensible. Maybe it was just me they didn't like. On the same note from yesterday's discussion, there is another very good email. Dear Jane and Jane, I'm not sure about your listeners' advice for women

to try dating women if they find that men aren't emotionally mature enough for them. I'm a gay woman and I've had a couple of relationships where people seem to have used me as an emotional respite centre from all the men they've dated who have been inadequate slash annoying slash hurtful for whatever reason. Can you guess what ends up happening? They end up feeling better, realise they're not truly into women and they go on and find a nice man to date. It doesn't feel great from here. Please, says our lovely listener,

don't use lesbians as an experiment if the attraction isn't there at the start. That said, of course women are fantastic, and I'd fully support more potential partners joining the pool, if only so I can find someone myself. She says, as to Jane's point about this not even being a topic in 20 years' time, I hope she's right. For what it's worth, I think everyone is somewhat bi unless they say otherwise. I'd never assume that I knew someone's sexuality for sure,

based on which kind of relationship they were in. Whether someone is ready to step outside societal norms is a different issue. Unfortunately, it's still much easier to be straight in this world. I'm mid-30s for reference. I think that is really interesting. I agree with the listener. I think there is a spectrum of sexuality and I think people are on it. Yeah. And I don't think it's fixed. This is what I think is interesting about what we were talking about yesterday. This idea that our sexuality is fixed and immutable is another thing that we've been taught. I think, you know, that that's an identity.

Without question. And it doesn't change. And I think it changes. I think we change. We grow up. Our needs are different. Our needs are different. Yeah.

Very different. I wonder whether, I mean, there's no, are there people, are there people, there can't be anyone listening to this because people who listen to this are quite clued up. There can't be anyone who's truly 100% anything. No. Surely not. I don't think so.

No, or would declare themselves 100%. I'm 100% heterosexual. Well, if you're female, I'd suggest you may not have met the right woman. Met the right woman, absolutely. That would probably be it. I mean, I just, I just, oh, anyway. I mean, I'm really interested in this subject, so please do keep your thoughts coming.

And I really love that line, don't use me, says our lesbian listener, as an emotional respite centre from the men you've dated. I think it's really important. I bet that does happen. Of course. And I bet it really, really hurts. It's so annoying, isn't it?

It's so annoying. As Fee's not here, I can indulge myself. Well, actually, you're Irish too, so that's all right. Irish royalty is this email from Diane. I often think, she says, that you make the podcast exclusively for me. Well, we do. It's just a secret. It really is a secret. Now you've completely ruined it, Diane, that you make the podcast exclusively for me. Well, we do. It's just a secret.

It really is a secret. Now you've completely ruined it, Diana, because you've told everybody. As there are so many parallels with my own life. I live on the show's fault line of Crosby. That is where I came from. And my children attend the same school as Jane once did. Oh, is there a picture of Jane in the corridors anywhere? Can you please let us know?

No, there isn't. There isn't, but I have done prize giving. However, when Jane mentioned how her gran from Bootle told her she was descended from Irish royalty, I almost spat my tea out. Growing up, I too was told the same story of my blue blood from my Irish grandparents, who also lived in Bootle. There was me thinking I was the only princess around these parts.

Could we be related? I bet we are, Diane, almost certainly related, not least because one of my great-great-grandmothers had, I think, 16 children, 14 or 16. I'm related to probably almost everybody in Liverpool, yeah, some way along the line. But yes, there's a lot of royalty from the Bootle area, not necessarily English royalty or British.

But anyway, as we all know, they're German, Greek and various other things. Yeah, they're not English either. Whereas the Irish royalty is like the real thing. Exactly. Yeah. I've got a couple of emails here pulling you and Fi up on something. Is it grammar? Yeah, it is grammar.

Well, get it over with quickly, please. I will get it over with really quickly. Apparently, you two often say, or Fi, who isn't here to defend herself, often says, leave the poor woman alone. Jane and I. One of these emails comes from, and I'm not sure if this is his real title or he's just doing it to be a little bit facetious, George Hewitt, FBA, Professor Emeritus.

I can't even say it. It's such a big cut. Emeritus. Emeritus of Caucasian Langu languages at SOAS, London University. That's the School of Oriental and African Studies, isn't it? Anyway, Professor George says, yeah, he often says topic for Jane and I. And apparently it should be for Jane and me.

Now, I was never taught grammar properly. I'm weirdly quite good at it, but I don't know why. I guess you would say a topic for me. And if you're saying someone, some and me, you say a me, not I. My mum was an English teacher. Oh, was she? Yeah. She must have taught you.

I never got taught formal grammar. I slipped through the net. So everything I know is just when my mum slapped me around the head and told me that was wrong. Right. Less and fewer. Oh, if I ever said less instead of fewer. Oh, no. He said get a book around the head. But I mean, I'm the first one to criticise for you when she's here, but I won't have her slagged off when she's some fewer. If I ever said less instead of fewer. He's going to get a book round the head.

I'm the first one to criticise for you when she's here but I won't have her slagged off when she's not here. I'll save it for next week when she gets back. That's the end of it. Leave the poor girl alone. One more before we get to our guest Kat Bohannon. One more from me anyway I should say. Yesterday, this is quite a good theme actually of granddads who made the wrong

move. Yesterday we heard about the grandfather who was a very gifted cartoonist and animator but turned down the chance to work on Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. That little-known film. He didn't think it would work. And here's another one from Sarah who says, In the early 1930s, my grandfather was offered the chance to invest in a new retail outlet by a business associate called Jack Cohen.

At the time, most people either had food delivered to their house or shopped at tiny individual stores, the butchers, the baker, etc. My grandfather thought that shopping in one outlet for every foodstuff would simply never catch on. So he turned down the chance to invest in what later became Tesco. Keep up the good work. From Sarah. Thank you, Sarah.

We will attempt to do exactly that It's a shame isn't it Can I have a quick one about brassieres before we go I thought you might say that This is from Marion who says she was listening to your chat last week about women being held in and corseted

This year, her 63rd, she is dabbling with unwired brassieres for the first time she's bought a number which have gone back to the shop and she is now more comfortable but no longer has pert round bosoms rather a mono boob she says it's okay in winter when draped in layers of woolens as she lives in scotland she says by summer i may have found a brand that gives a nicer shape or finally come to terms with my lack of youthful partners, but all advice is welcome. So, unwired brassiere advice. Not my area.

I mean, I just always, I'm sorry, but like everything, I just go to M&S for it. I go to the other place. Oh, yeah. You go to the posh place, don't you? Well, I just think if it was good enough for the late queen. Yeah. It was good enough.

It is good enough for me. It is good enough for you. See, yeah, I've never bought a posh brassiere. Well, just, I know, obviously, now you're thinking, wow, let's just have a quick gander at Jane to see whether that investment was actually worth it. Well, I've got, I mean, as one ages, one's bosom just does change, along with the rest of us, as we alluded to earlier.

And I personally, I cannot even go downstairs without a bra on first thing in the morning. I know people who sleep in them and swear by it. I also know. Including Elizabeth Hurley. Oh, does she? Yep, swears by it. I don't know if that's venturing into unhygienic territory. The listeners will know.

Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Do you sleep in a bra? And do you think it's a good idea? Let's stick with women's bodies because our guest today is Kat Bohannon, author of, do you see how I did that? Oh, that was so slick. Eve, How the Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution. Women's bodies, of course, are very different from men's.

You may have noticed that. Women live longer. They have a stronger sense of smell, for example. Women's bodies can allow birth, breastfeeding. But the complications of menstrual cycles and pregnancy can mean, not always, but can mean that female bodies don't get included in medical research. And that leads inevitably to substandard care, medical care for women and girls in later life. So let's get to Kat's book. It took her 10 years to write. So she's put a lot of work in here. And I started by asking her about a point she makes in the book, stating that females are more

common on this planet, despite the fact that actually more baby boys are born. despite the fact that actually more baby boys are born? The exact mechanisms are unclear. Okay. It is true that there's a very, very slight difference in the sex of human babies that are born every year. But then the problem is, of course, that those male babies will, across their lifespan from babyhood on, have more infections and more cancer and generally die more.

So we outlive them. We may start out with a certain number, but by the time we arrive later in lives, we're not dying more every single year. Yes, than the males. A little bit of revenge towards the end then. Unintentional, but sure, yeah. Yeah, okay, well, we'll take it. We'll probably have to.

I suppose what I'm really asking is that the female of the species is not studied in the same way we asking is that the female of the species is not studied in the same way we know that as the male of the species. And is it just too simple to say that's because in the past, precisely because of the female body, we were too busy having children and bringing them up to involve ourselves in the study of the human body. Therefore, it was left to the men. And they tended to assume that everything worked the way their bodies did. I think it's absolutely right that having more women researchers in labs is certainly driving some of the new interest in women's bodies. But it's actually more of a philosophical problem.

It's that all the way down to when we're studying rats, we're mostly studying male rats, because the menstrual cycle, what in other species is called the estrous cycle is thought of as a confound a complication we're just so complicated jane yeah so so the idea is you're making a cleaner experiment if you're not using the females so the easiest way to get rid of that was to just not study them unfortunately that means by the time we arrive all the way up in biomedical research it hasn't been studied on any female bodies many medications on the market right now study them. Unfortunately, that means by the time we arrive all the way up in biomedical research, it hasn't been studied on any female bodies. Many medications on the market right now have never been properly tested in female bodies, which is... Does that make us at risk then?

Yes. Yes, absolutely so. Particularly when it comes to opioid drugs. These are common painkillers. We process them differently through our livers. Your liver doesn't have a pronoun, but it does have a sex. Okay, your cells are expressing genes differently in there with two X chromosomes. And that's why many women need more of some of these drugs in order to achieve the same pain relief. And then how it leaves our bodies has that different slope. Yeah. So can women just not be involved in drugs trials

because, for example, they might be pregnant at any given time and that might have all kinds of detrimental impacts? Well, it's absolutely the case that for many single women, the idea that we are merely an empty vessel waiting to be pregnant is a problem. However, at least in the scientific realm, it's true that we didn't want to mess up our babies. We didn't want to include women in trials that might have unknown consequences for potential fetuses. So best not to include them. Unfortunately, given how different our physiology actually is, we really need to do better. In the US, now the regulations are changing. We're starting to include women in trials, but they're still under-enrolled. We need to keep our feet on that pedal to keep this moving forward. I know we don't want to focus exclusively on pregnancy and birth, but nevertheless, they are both remarkable. And as you make very clear in the book, dangerous things. Oh, dear Lord, yes.

And we don't actually acknowledge that often enough. Well, you know, there's this thing, just because it's normal doesn't mean it's okay, right? So we normalize the idea of human birth because we see others doing it and we sort of don't talk about the taboo of how absolute crap it is. But it's actually true across primates, for the majority of primates and across mammals, that our pregnancies, births, and postpartum recoveries are longer, harder, and more prone to dangerous complications than they are for these other animals humans in particular suck at this we're just no good at reproducing in that way yeah we're just really

not particularly good which is precisely why lucy the old furry hominin australopithecine 3.2 million years ago had a midwife yeah we're one of the only species that does that you mean that actually had somebody with her to help her through right and we've stuck to that idea right um can we just go back to why we as humans don't just lay eggs because that surely is that safer but it would also keep us in one place i guess there are many many sensible advantages to laying eggs um and the majority of animals in the world that have such reproductive systems still very much do. It's really only because of the asteroid, in fact, that we placentals managed to produce so many of these bodies throughout the world. We filled in the niches, the smoking holes left when the dinosaurs died out, right?

Which is why we also outnumber marsupials. Remember, pouch instead of no pouch, yeah? We placentals outnumber them. Before the dinosaurs died, we didn't. That's also why we only have a single vagina instead of two. They have two. Yeah, obviously childbirth is very different in various parts of the world, but actually it's still, I mean, we haven have had any number of scandals in this country,

frankly, within the NHS involving healthcare and the way women and very young babies are cared for. Has anywhere in the world got this completely right, do you think? I think we can always do better, particularly by women and girls. I think it's okay for us all to agree on that. I think it's absolutely the case that in places in the world where caretaking is valued, women are more valued. Yeah. I think in places in the world where the body is seen as a thing, you have the right to be in and live a healthy life, then women are better cared for. You talk too about how women's bodies change in really any number of ways during pregnancy. And those heightened senses, you can smell everything.

Your appetite is quite bizarre. You might suddenly crave things you've never liked before. But if I'm honest with you, although I've been pregnant, I can't actually bring those sensations back now. Yeah, it's not funny. They just go, don't they it's very very bizarre yeah yeah yeah there are a couple of reasons why that might be one is that maybe we don't want to remember fair enough right maybe also that there are such radical physiological brain changes especially during the third trimester if one makes it there and then after birth that um you may well literally

be losing those memories as you go on literally making way in the brain for that new bonding with the baby and learning your new social role as a new mother in our complex human environments right so your brain changed which is fine and good and probably has a long evolutionary past but that might be why it's hard to bring it back and if you ever want to get a controversial conversation going on a show or radio show or any other kind of show aimed largely at women, discuss breastfeeding, because you will always get two very, very polarized sets of opinions coming at you. And there's a lot in this book about breastfeeding. And if it works for you,

it's a joyful and magical thing. it doesn't it's among the toughest things that you'll ever do and some of the most horrible experiences you'll ever have absolutely and um you talk about nipples because they i mean they they had to evolve along with everything else what happened before nipples right so the duck-billed platypus uh is often used as an older model of mammals, still lays eggs, does lactate, has no nipples, sweats out, effectively sweats, it's endocrine cleanse. All of her milk through sweaty little patches on her stomach and the babies slurp it up through their bills. Now, the interesting thing about nipples as an evolutionary add-on is what it

ended up creating was this two-way communication path between suckling babies and the mother's, well, breast, right? Because it creates a vacuum when you suckle, but the focus of the vacuum when the baby suckles moves back and forth. So what happens is the milk comes over the top, kind of like a tide, like the wave on a shore, but there's an undertow literally sucking the baby's spit back up into the mother's breast, where her immune system is reading it like some kind of

ancient code and changing the content of the milk to suit so sick babies get different milk because the boob is literally reading that spit inside uh than babies that are not sick wow yeah i mean that that's um quite remarkable it is but again breast pumps great technology use that if your baby's bad at latching mine was okay right and don't despair if you're if you're i always just think whenever you're talking about breastfeeding there might be someone listening who's having the most terrible time of her life don't worry because in the end one day your kid will grow up there'll be a horrible teenager and the last thing they'll ever want to talk about is whether or not they were ever breastfed and then therefore punish them by doing so yeah yeah absolutely and also true um remember that if nipples are a later evolutionary

add-on maybe it's okay that babies are not that great at latching on makes sense doesn't it and why do men have nipples men have nipples because we are mammals and it may have been too much of a change to eliminate that in the basic build plan of your central torso than to just sort of keep them on. But it's absolutely true, in fact, that trans women who want to breastfeed their babies take the exact same hormone protocol, same fistful of pills to induce lactation as cis women who want to breastfeed babies that they've adopted. And biologically, it's the same stuff they tested it actually same ratio of milk and sugars yeah yeah yeah it's a beautiful situation okay so in extremis then a man a man could if not feed a baby they could comfort one who needed that that closeness yes

and in fact in a hunter-gatherer society called the Aka, they do have a tradition of men being suckling stand-ins while the women go hunt. Okay. Are they the only people that we know that definitely do that as a matter of routine? Well, I'm sure somewhere in Brooklyn, New York. But I mean, as an actual population of people, they're the ones we've studied.

Okay. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. of people. They're the with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Now, considering how our lives and experiences and our bodies have changed over the course of millions of years, I wanted to know from Kat why we haven't evolved out of the bloody nuisance of periods. Whole different relationship to calendars and our underwear. Yes, absolutely. All of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, the pain of it, just the flop sweat of cramps. Dear Lord. Yeah, yeah. Well, the funny thing, or well, funny is the wrong word. The thing about evolution is that we have many traits that are detrimental to our well-being and certainly to our happiness, but are not so detrimental that they impact our fitness, our biological fitness, right?

For example, the way we make babies is still objectively terrible, right? In just about any way you might want to measure it as a biologist, as a medical professional, sure. Why haven't we evolved to do better? Well, it takes a long time to change a trait and maybe changing that trait would have had knock-on effects that killed us off in other ways what we do what humans are famous for is working around it behaviorally through our local cultural practices through what we do with our bodies and certainly uh through gynecology and there are some really positive things about um well, certainly about having children.

And I loved what you said about the voice and the fact that a mother begins to speak in a way that she has never spoken before, actually in the minutes after the child is born. And it's very hard to actually remember that time, but they are very special moments. And then you suddenly start using this funny voice that you've never never used before mother ease but i know i've realized

to my horror cat i was using it to my cat this morning oh yeah dangerous time they even in science it's been named when we talk to dogs they call it dogger roll they've named the way and it's strikingly similar to mother ease uh when we are caring for a being that is dependent on us, we have this urge, it seems, we human beings, to change the cadence of our voice and the pitch. And, oh, who's a cute little baby? You see that variation in pitch I just did there? It turns out it actually helps babies acquire language for babies that have hearing. But why do we do it? Which is to say, it's unclear if it's just the habit of learning it from those around us, right? A kind of social

learning model, or if we are directly evolved to speak in this way, even having never heard it, because there are very few human beings who are born without hearing it from somewhere else, right? But there are known advantages that when you do that to your baby, that baby acquires language more efficiently. And do they then know it's you? They know it's you, actually, if they are babies who have the normal range of hearing. Right, of course, yeah. Because they heard your voice in the womb.

Yes, and so there is that immediate connection. The immediate dyad, yeah. It's called in science a dyad, that communicative pair of mother and offspring is profoundly ancient. I did hear years and years ago that women talk in a different way to daughters and sons and that they might actually communicate more with daughters,

bizarrely because they think that the daughters are going to be interested in what they've got to say. I haven't seen that data. I don't know those studies, but that is fascinating and I'm going to go dig in. I'm going to go dig in. That's really, really interesting. I imagine that's culturally dependent, right? In the same way that in some cultures, boy babies are taken more often to the clinic because they are either more valued or literally it's just expensive to take a kid to a clinic and you have to make choices, which we all have sympathy for.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a diagnosis bias, right? We always have to be careful in global data whether or not diagnoses between the sexes are actually because of the body or because of the culture, because it's expensive in many places in the world to take a baby to the clinic. Yeah, that really is, that's food for thought, isn't it? in the world to take a baby to the clinic. Yeah, that really is, that's food for thought, isn't it?

You talk too about IQ tests and they do favour the male. At a certain age. At a certain age. But as you also point out, they are devised on the whole by men. Is that fair? They are, originally. How about that? Originally, yes, there are many incredibly standout women scientists, women of color, who are working very, very hard in cognitive psychology and in test design to make it more equitable.

For sure, for sure, for sure. But it does seem to be the case that even in these studies for general intelligence, what we call IQ tests, that there are some questions that seem designed to favor certain populations. They're working on it, but let's say it's still unfair. Right. But men are not cleverer than women. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. It really depends what you mean by clever, right? Because often when we're talking about smarts, we're talking about what we admire necessarily in men. So already there's a problem, right? Just in the science, there can be a problem. But no, even when it comes to mathematics, which is the most debated space around whether or not males have an innate advantage in mathematics, the numbers don't exactly pan out. There's a very, very, very small, vanishingly small signal, okay, around

spatial logic. You picture a box in your head and you rotate it, and how fast you can answer those kinds of questions correctly, that's spatial logic, okay. There's a slight male advantage, but if the female test takers are given more time, they also come up with the right answers. Okay, but sometimes we might just have to give

men a couple of wins. It might make them happy. I mean, they are dying sooner so they should have something well this is actually you say this you say that the real tragedy of the menopause is it's the beginning of a time in your life when you're going to meet some tough challenges if you're a heterosexual female because it may very well be that you're approaching the time when your partner might die. Yes, absolutely. I mean, that's a big, I have not arrived at old age yet, but I know it's coming. And there are people I love who I'll lose. That's just how that goes. And it's true that even if you're not heterosexual, there are men that you love dearly, your brothers, your friends, there are people in your life

who have a shortened lifespan compared to you. And I think that lifespan gap is actually only going to get bigger as our medicine improves, because many of the ways in which we are improving on lifespan in general are in many ways favoring female bodies, despite the dearth of research. Our bodies are just better across the board at not dying, which sounds great, but is also deeply tragic. So that's the future of gerontology. That's what we really need to fix. Okay. And you also say that every power men have ever had over women is something that we gave them. We just forgot. We forgot we can stop. Now, you also throughout the book acknowledge that men have

physical power over women. And there's not going to be a lot any of us can do about that in the short term. So can we really just allow them to stop having so much more power in the world than we have? So I think I am hopeful. I am hopeful in part because I've spent so much time thinking about deep time. And when you pull the camera back from our current thrashing and eddies in the pushback against feminism, right? When you pull the camera back, you can see the trajectory. We are moving towards more sex egalitarian societies in the long run. I'm not discounting all of the horrors we're facing right now as females.

We really, really are. And we can do better by our women and girls. But if you look over the last few hundred years, if you even look at our physiology over the last few millions of years, we are moving towards more sex egalitarian societies. And so I do put my faith in that, even as I want to keep my foot on the pedal to make sure we don't slow down. That is Kat Bohannon. And she ends there by saying

that women need to just gather their strength and reclaim back from men all the power we've allowed them to have over the years. The thing is I wish we'd had more time with Kat in a way because I'm not sure we had much choice about giving them all the power. I'm not sure we gave it I think they just took it but I took it. But, I mean, look, we just dislike the open university, isn't it? We could go on all night. I think we are doing our very best, certainly within this room,

to grab back what we can and smash and grab. Well said, Jane. So join Mulkerins and Garvey at the same time tomorrow or indeed whenever the hell you like to catch up with Off Air. We're very grateful to you.

Some really, really interesting emails over the last couple of days, so please keep them coming. Sexuality particularly, because I just think that's interesting and we don't always discuss it in the way we should. Do not use gay women as a respite centre for men. It's just not on. That is fair, isn't it?

Absolutely fair. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Have a good night. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer.

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