Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Only one of us is heavily medicated...

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Jane joins us from home as she's still suffering from adult teething issues. Fi updates her on everything she's missed, which is... not much. They cover holiday weather, pickleball and double-yolk eggs. Plus, Saad Mohseni, chief executive of Moby Group, Afghanistan’s largest media company, discusses his book ‘Radio Free Afghanistan’. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

But the bride's mother was attired in black lace and satin. Oh, hello. I think she's sending a message, isn't she? And had a bouquet of red roses. Hi, I'm Adam Vaughan, Environment Editor for The Times. At the 2024 Times Earth Summit, our discussion on the essential steps for a net zero transition will be set against a backdrop of the biggest election year in history. The governments voted in this year will face a crucial period for the sustainability agenda.

This transition will be theirs to accelerate and all our futures will be affected by whether or not they do so. To book your ticket to this year's summit, head to timesurfsummit.com forward slash virtual. I think people have been incredibly concerned about your welfare. People have been expecting something to be posted up on the gates outside your house, alerting the nation to your state of health, Jane. So start at the very beginning, leave no stone unturned, no detail unexplored. What's happened? Oh, no one needs to hear this, do they? Do they really? Oh, come on. Just as long as, just don't, don't, don't, don't use the word sludge. But crack on.

Okay. People who've been there will know and lots of people get there even if they think they won't get there believe me you probably will. Tooth, a tooth infection. I mean I did I know I was complaining last week wasn't I about having feeling a bit of pain I felt I got a toothache. Long story short it got worse and worse and worse got a toothache. Long story short, it got worse and worse and worse. And I don't know, I mean, it's just the kind of pain that it just, it keeps you awake or it wakes you up. And painkillers are fine and they do the business, but then they wear off and you just feel like wrenching your own head off and chucking it into a stream. It was that bad. Anyway, it sorted, I'm very much on the mend, root canal, Hobe's interview, but I can cope. No, I can cope. Had it before, I can get through it, that's fine.

Right, so forgive my dental ignorance, but what is... I mean, I always hear people talk about root canal treatment and there's always a very sharp intake of breath afterwards, but what does it mean? Yes, that's a good question and it's not one I can completely answer so I'm going to go on one of those search engines and I'll let you know, but you're absolutely right, people do go on about it without knowing, so let's just see what it says, root canal. Okay and while you doing that, have you had to have the tooth extracted? That was one of the options. But the very kind dentist said he wouldn't recommend it. So instead the root canal is better. Here we go.

Root canal treatment is a treatment sequence for the infected pulp of a tooth intent, yes, intended to result in the elimination of infection and the protection of the decontaminated tooth from future microbial invasion. Oh gosh, microbial invasion. It's a dark enough world anyway without being invaded by your microbials. Well look, we wish you well and hopefully you'll be back in person tomorrow. Oh I will be. I will be. Okay, okay. No, it's more of a threat than a promise. I'll be there, okay? But just to just kudos

to the people who came up with antibiotics. Thank you so much. And also I have to say in the wee small hours of Friday, no, Saturday and Sunday morning, I was waiting for the next painkillers to take effect. And I was listening to Miriam Margulies second book, second sort of autobiographical book as my audio book. And it was just the job. So partly because she swears such a lot. So if you, and it kind of, it was just the job. So partly because she swears such a lot. So if you and it kind of it was helping me that kind of her anger and her beautiful speaking

voice saw me through the night. Excellent. But honestly wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. However, the end is now in sight. Okay. Good. Good. Good.

Has anything else been going on? No, very little has happened in the world at large. Obviously we are experiencing the Labour Party's first conference as government in 15 years. We've got Keir Starmer's speech coming today. So we've got all the fun of the fair. Yvonne says, I hope Fee's feeling better and apple crunching ready. It's the wrong short person there Yvonne, but we don't mind. Yvonne has had a chuckle about the phrase pickleball. I heard the event as pickleboard and envisaged a spread of the best of Hayward selection accompanied by tequila, vodka and gin shots.

Great alternative to afternoon tea. I was rather deflated by the actual explanation and proposed the board option might be more sociable. So lots of people have been in touch to try and assuage our curiosity about pickleball and it's somewhere between tennis and badminton in that it's a racket sport and this comes from Sarah Squires, excuse me, it's a racket sport played on a badminton-sized court with a low net like tennis and a plastic ball and it's the fastest growing sport in the US. It's getting very big over here because it's super easy to pick up and great fun to play. I'm now 60 and wore my knee joints out

playing netball in brackets Jane, in brackets, captain the England under 18s. I mean there's no need, don't bracket that Sarah, don't bracket that ever. Sarah congratulations that's amazing. It is and after three ACL reconstructions, I don't know what that acronym is either, could you get to work on your Google again? That's cruciate ligament. Oh well done, okay. And three partial knee replacements, I can still play this sport competitively.

So quite a lot of people have said that if somebody was slightly deriding the sport, it's because it's become unbelievably popular for the over 60s. So it might have been that kind of snort of I'm far too kind of young in her suit for that to be of any interest to me. And everybody seems to be really enjoying it. So I think probably a Times Radio Pickleball Ladder is only a couple of months away. Have you ever been part of a sporting ladder, Jane? Yes, ping pong at school and I was rather good.

So I'm wondering whether in fact, pickleball might be for me. Perhaps I could have a bash. So what do you need? A special racket. So I think you have a bigger. So what do you need? A special racket? So I think you have a bigger racket, like a tennis racket, and it's a plastic ball, but you play on a badminton court. So you can play indoors at the Sports Centre on a wet and rainy Wednesday afternoon. I think it's a gift by the sounds of it.

I wasn't in recovery from a slight ailment. I'd be out there this afternoon, I can absolutely promise you. It's probably very interesting, you're right, that because it's slightly older people playing it, the rest of the world chooses to deride it. So let's not let them do that. Good luck to all pickle ballers. That's what I say. Quick shout out to Caroline. She saw a reduced sandwich that Carrot, Chutney and Wensleydale won, bought it and is now utterly converted. So there we are,

simple pleasures brought to Caroline and I'm very grateful that my top tip paid off. Thank you for that. I should say that I'm reading emails on a combination of the emails I've printed out very badly because you know what my print is like and it misses out the end sentence. And I've got some on my phone. Oh, rather it misses out the end of every sentence. It's quite difficult to read. Anyway, look, this is about sauerkraut

and I'm reading this on my phone, so bear with. This is from Anita. I'm on a beach in Venice, near Venice, catching up with your podcast. Last day here. It's been awful. Every day, thick clouds, rain and wind. The last day though, sunny. Small advice, do not come to Northern Italy in September if you are a beach person. Right, please everybody note that. But that's not why I'm emailing you. You talked about cheap Polish sauerkraut and it's true. I tried kimchi and I

think it's bloody awful but the Polish sauerkraut is much nicer. You need to know which one to take though. Always look for the word, I'm obviously not going to be able to pronounce this, kizona, that's K-I-S-Z-O-N-A and not kwa-zona. Kizona is the outcome of the natural fermentation process, hence much healthier. When quazona is achieved by adding some sort of acid, remember to read it and find quazona. That's from Anita and I'm very grateful to you and I'm sorry your holiday in Venice

has been such a disappointment. You would assume, and indeed I always assume, that when you go away, especially to places like that, the weather is guaranteed brilliant, but it's just not true, is it? Why would it be guaranteed brilliant? Because it's not here. Oh, I see. You just assume when you go on holiday, you're going to be gifted holiday weather.

Yeah, always. Absolutely. Well, the only time that I've ever visited Venice, it was during the Acra Altar, you know, when it's really, really flooded and they put these benches up so you can still walk around and it was mesmerizingly beautiful. So I'm sorry that our correspondent didn't enjoy that sensation. I mean, no hate or judgment on not enjoying it. I take your point, you want good weather when you're on holiday but sometimes it's quite exciting when it's not. But imagine if you had come to this country this week. You can't get anywhere because

everything has shut down and actually people are having a miserable time aren't they? And it's very early in the season to be flooded out and dealing with all your dams and all that type of stuff. But it's horrendous, it's horrendous, isn't it, in some parts of the country? It really is. Thoughts and prayers. And I think you're right, you know, this is very early in the season, isn't it? Because I thought storms really only started mid-October onwards. So this is a bit freakily odd and

should be really concerning. I'm sure I've said it before but can't be anything worse than having your home flooded out. It's utter misery. So hope that doesn't happen to too many people. One of our old colleagues has been affected as well of course, at least by travel problems because she had issues getting a train on a trip back from a stay in a spa. It's made the papers today. So thoughts and prayers, because it's not easy, is it, Fee? No, it's not easy. You sent me that article this morning and I'm not sure what you're expecting me to say.

I'm not sure what you're expecting me to say. It's not easy. Because also the same thing happened to me when I went to, on general election night, when I was up in Yorkshire. Was it featured in a national newspaper, Jane? No, I had to sit by the toilet all the way back to London. And did you, had you alerted the public to this terrible area of travel dismay? I rang my official photographer and very soon they sprang into life and it was all over the papers. I don't know how anyone missed it. I really don't. Do you think you'd get more coverage if you made available to the world a picture of you

in a bikini, Jane? I think if I'd made available to the world a picture of me at three in the morning on Sunday, I think a lot of people would have been quite revolted. So if I'd stuck a bikini into the equation as well, that would have been close and play, I think. There's no doubt about it. Can I just seamlessly, actually not seamlessly at all? Yeah, I wish you would just move on or I just move on. Yes, well that's what we all say when we're on a British train, move on. It's so sweet this and it's from someone who's just started uni. They do start by saying, I've been listening

to you two blabbering away for about four years. That's very cruel. We both doubted the continuation of your authenticity when you went to the new place, so we stopped listening. However, after feeling guilty and a bit prejudicial, I decided to give you a second chance. And actually, I think you've probably become funnier because you can say what the bloody hell you want. I still haven't been able to persuade my mother to make the move despite her hearing you talk

about the tax loophole that alpacas are. So here I go. I'm 22 and I've just moved to the UK from Switzerland and I'm training as an actor. My mum has joined me on my move and has just left to go back home. Unexpectedly the moment I've got back into my dorm room I burst into tears. I didn't expect myself to feel such a spectrum of emotions. On the one hand, real excitement about finally starting the degree I've been dreaming of and on the other just being so insecure about leaving my family, friends and hometown behind. So I'd just like to tell mummy and papa thank you so much for letting me do the most ridiculous degree, for your unwavering support

and for everything you've done and continue to do for me. I love you both so much and I can't wait to see you at Christmas. Please give the dogs a tummy rub from me and tickle Hannah from your wee boy." Oh dear, that's from Cameron. Well Cameron, what a lovely lovely young man you are. Really, really lovely and he's hoping to persuade his mom to listen to this, if nothing else we do. So I suspect she'll be played it, because Cameron, how could she resist after that? And look, you've done a really big thing and a brave thing, and it's your ambition fulfilled, and it's going to be tough, but it'll be brilliant as well. Yeah and I do think also that feeling of separation anxiety which is what that is isn't it?

When it suddenly hits you that you're not with the people that you love in the place that you love and all of that kind of stuff and I mean it's very painful to go through but it is a sign of the fact that you are absolutely adored in a place so it's no bad thing in the end to experience that because it just reminds you doesn't it that actually you come from a very good place and a lovely warm hug of a family. I'm a little bit worried about who Hannah is. It's an animal. I'm pretty sure. Are you sure? Well I'm not, I don't know. It was probably an alpaca. I mean, I don't know.

But yes, good on you, Cameron. And if Cameron's mum is listening to this, well, what a fantastic, fantastic parental accolade that is for your son to bother to write to this and to bother to miss you really. Are you still reading these things on your phone? I think a bit of both things. It's actually bringing, it's a bit of a COVID throwback, this whole experience, because my phone now says you're ringing me. I was hoping it was going to ring, just because I wanted to, I just wanted to prove that this was happening, because we could have a multimedia experience. But no, don't answer it now, because

we'll get terrible howl round. I'm going to send you a message. Oh, okay. Sorry, I can't talk right now. Yeah, don't, don't, don't attach another picture of a colleague. I don't want any. Okay. This one comes from the local papers section of the podcast, which is doing some very good business at the moment. It comes from Helen Day, who says, I listened to a recent episode and there was some mention of local papers. It was during the night so the following may not be what you're looking for. It certainly is Helen. These are cuttings reporting my grandparents' wedding in 1928, some of which list the presents. We still have the cocktail shaker. Now I can't read all of it because the printer here isn't quite

dedicated enough to get all of the details in what is quite old newsprint but a fantastic sentence which I think refers to Miss Helen Ditchfield who is the grandmother who got married. The church was crowded as the bride is most popular in the district because of her sportsmanship and unassuming nature. I'm just gonna close the door because my cleaning lady's hoovering. Hang on one sec.

Oh, Helen, I thought it deserved a bigger reaction to that. I thought that was just extraordinary. And it is so, so detailed. She was dressed in white georgette and silver tissue and wore a net veil embroidered in silver and a coronet of orange blossom and carried a shawl or this is that no a sheaf of Madonna lilies. The bridesmaids wore dresses of peach colored something georgette. I can't pick out the rest of that bit,

but the bride's mother was attired in black lace and satin. Oh hello, I think she's sending a message isn't she? And had a bouquet of red roses, and the bridegroom's mother in a dress of navy blue crepe de chine and carried a bouquet of tea roses. Isn't that lovely? Oh gosh, that's quite the report. But the fact that the report drew attention to her unassuming nature. I know, sportsmanship and unassuming nature. Yeah, well you wouldn't want to marry a big Ed, would you? So it's good to know that she was... I wonder whether... is that equality? I suppose it is equality. Oh come on, it's very much equality. Certainly in women. It is, because it's demure, but also just really, really hot shit at hockey. I mean, I think that's an English man's dream really, isn't it? In the worst possible way, but I'm

sure her grandmother was absolutely lovely. But it is quite a thing to say. What do you think are the two attributes that the newspaper would have picked out about you were you to be the subject of that kind of a wedding report, Jane? Religionate. And a bad loser. Opinionated, yeah. So, yes, I think I'd probably not, I don't want to go there anymore. Let's leave it. I'm quite shaken by unassuming being a... I know, I know. But anyway, Helen, I hope it's not upsetting. We're not ridiculing your grandmother at all, at all, at all, at all,

because it's a really fascinating snapshot of the time. But it is quite something, isn't it? I think it just tells you something about where everybody's head was with women in 1928. Well, I mean, almost 100 years on and I wonder how much has improved, Vy, if you look at the news around and about. But what beautiful detail about the clothes. But what beautiful detail about the clothes. Yes. I must, you know, I am interested in that. I mean, I just think it's really, really incredible that people would put that in the local paper and it would be richly enjoyed by all, presumably. Oh, wouldn't it?

Especially if you had a list of all of the gifts that are being given. I think you'd pour over that, wouldn't you? And then you'd probably feel bad about your own stash. Well, exactly. This listener has also actually worked for a local paper. I confess, I think we'll leave you anonymous just in case, I suppose you never know. They had done a week school work experience at the Slough Express back in 1990.

We did this yesterday. I'm so sorry. Did you? Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Did you not listen? I was still, I was asleep yesterday afternoon genuinely. Oh no don't worry. Mind you, I guess it has been available for a few hours since then. No no please don't worry.

So we did cover that yesterday and I tell you what, Eve, she stepped up to the plate and she did some reading of emails and you and I, I think our career as you know female voices at Times Radio is limited now due to the success of her appearance on the podcast because she's just got a much better voice than you and me hasn't she? She's got a lovely sense of delivery, good timing. She's all right yes, but she's got years, she's got decades ahead of her. She needs to respect a pensioner and stay in her lane just for a couple of years. And then, frankly, she can take over the whole planet as far as we can see. But no, she's a very talented young woman. Did you do Anne's email about going to the

GP last week? No, I don't think so. Well, she had an ear problem and she was advised to use olive oil. There we are. But in a 21st century twist, she was also told that she could try coconut oil. Gosh. Anne's in Reading. try coconut oil. Gosh. And Zin Redding. So yeah, I wouldn't have thought, is that to, you have to tell us a bit more, Al, is that to dislodge wax or just to give yourself a lovely sensation of little droplets of coconut, I don't know, cascading close to your brain?

I don't know. I don't know, cascading close to your brain? I don't know. I don't know. Do you know what, it's a very good question because, you know, we've talked quite often, I mean surprisingly often actually, about olive oil being on sale in pharmacies and stuff like that, but we've never really asked how you use it, have we? Do you just pour it into your ear? Why would that automatically dislodge the wax? I would have thought that's quite dangerous, you're not meant to put anything in your ear are you? No, they're very wary of you putting anything in your ear. I would assume you'd get a little pipette or a droplet thing, what are they called?

Yeah, pipette will do. Yeah, thank you. I did do, well until that incident I was allowed to do chemistry for a year, but we don't talk about that anymore. Anyway, Bunsen burner, that's another term I know. Yeah, droplet thing, and you put it in your ear, and I'm assuming it just... What is the scientific explanation, does it? So if you put olive oil into a pan, stick some garlic in and put some heat under it, we all know what happens then. But what happens in, but what happens in the ear? That's what I'm asking.

Yeah. Does it just moisten the wax? I don't know. Well, somebody will be able to tell us, won't they? There are, believe it or not, medical professionals listening to this. Yes. I'm surprised. I'm surprised. Just actually, to go back to our friend who you mentioned yesterday at the Slough Express. Yes. I am really chuffed with the detail about how she did get one story onto the front page about the lion needing a filling.

Yes. Because obviously that resonated with me. And I think that is a classic because the only story I ever really got when I was in local radio was about the breastfeeding woman being thrown out of the Worcester cinema. Well, it's a good story. It is a good story. And the local paper took it from the local radio station and put it on the front page. And honestly, it was the happiest day of my life, apart from the births of my children, obviously. She said hastily.

Yeah. And we're all feeling a bit left out now but okay. No that's good, that's very good. This one comes in from Claire and it's still about local newspapers. About 20 years ago I moved from Somerset to London. A few weeks later my best friend Fee, still living in Somerset, called me up and left an answer phone message in which she read out in full the front page story of that week's Somerset Gazette. A woman had boiled an egg for breakfast, tapped it open with her spoon only to find another smaller egg inside. What?

I know. Fee saved the paper copy for me when I next came home. A great friend. Fee's off and on. Isn't that weird? So a chicken had made an egg and then what it got stuck somewhere on the egg conveyor belt canal and she had made another egg to go around it that that needs some explanation as well. I've had lots of those eggs where you crack them open and there's two yolks inside and we used to

photograph those and send those to Blue Peter because there were fun times in the hamlet but I've never I've never heard of an egg having an egg inside it that's remarkable isn't it Jane? I love your possibility your theory that the hen had grown another egg around it. Yeah, but that could be the only possibility. So maybe, I mean, you know, I'm right at the boundaries of my poultry knowledge here, but if your egg kind of got a little bit constipated, then would the hen just carry on making another egg and that would go over the top? Over the top. Okay, so olive oil and double eggs. Those are the explanations that we're looking for. I tell you what, dear listener,

only one of us during this podcast is heavily medicated. Well, actually, you're right. You've just reminded me I'm due for my next amoxicillin any minute now. You know how sometimes when you've got something, you, you know, I know we're, in fact, didn't we talk about some antibiotic resistance last week on the program and how dangerous it is? And so I must admit, I very, I haven't been on antibiotics for years. I can't remember the last time I took them. But what remains just a modern miracle is the quite impressive quick impact of antibiotics when you really need them. I can't put into words how much better I feel compared to the weekend.

So let's not knock them and let's treat them with respect and just hope that we can carry on using them for a wee bit longer. Yeah. And then some. Yep. Yes. Yeah. They're just brilliant. Yep. What about Sparks cards? Have you talked about them? No, I don't think we have. I think we decided that we weren't going to talk about Sparks

cards until Marks and Spencer's actually sponsored the podcast. Well, just one more mention. Yeah, let's give them one more. And I don't want to offend this listener because I don't think I know how to pronounce your name, but I'm going to go with Kus-kus-neer. Kus-neer. Kus-neer. That might be better. Probably not right, but better. Get a Sparks card immediately, she instructs. I've won a free basket twice. And even though it was only a mid-sized one both times, it cheered me up no end. Right.

Thank you both for the booktips. I've been away for a blissful but too short visit to the Lake District and have already finished The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry and The Trouble with Sheep and Goats. I thought both were absolutely excellent. Oh, she's just about to start writing a dissertation amidst family life. Hope that goes well for you. Because that probably isn't easy. Students doing dissertations generally only have themselves to think about and that's still quite tough. So doing one while you're doing something else,

much harder. So it goes all right for you. Yeah, I absolutely concur. But also what a lovely thing to do to be able to take your brain somewhere completely and utterly different and really concentrate on something else. We should say that The Trouble with Goats and Sheep is our next book club book isn't it by Joanna Cannon and we were going to read that probably do it in about a month's time. Eva's nodding. Yes that's after we've been to the Cheltenham Literature Festival, isn't it? That is correct, yes. I started that book yesterday and it was perfect for my convalescence, she said, weekly. It's perfect. Absolutely perfect.

I've had a lot of scrambled egg and Greek yoghurt. Oh, yes. I'm very keen to move on to solids at some point in the next couple of days. Yes. So keep you informed, but I probably won't be eating apples for a long, long time to come. Well, that's good news for me. That's very, very, very, very good news for me. I had nothing to do with your tooth infection, Jane.

Never put turn two together and make 456. Yeah. Sally Priddy, this will be the final one for me, and then we will introduce today's guest, who is a fascinating person on a really important topic. Sally says, I've got four king-sized duvets of the following togs. 1.2, 4.0, 7.0, 12.0 from John Lewis or M&S. Does that make me middle class? Well, it makes you temperature controlled, Sally. That's what it makes you. That is a stunning array. You've got one for every season there.

They're so specific. They're very, very different. Any TOG rating I can find. And I congratulate you. But when on earth do you use the 12? I think we only go up to 10.5 in our house. 12 would finish me off because I'm still having menopausal hot nights. And I actually really, really look forward to the, I think we're going to get low overnight temperatures towards the end of this week. And Fee, I'm excited, genuinely excited because I'll have a much more comfortable night. genuinely excited because I'll have a much more comfortable night. Donald's never had a 12-tog in my life. I can't see the need for that. I'd rather, I think I'd rather stick a double coat on and just stick with a lower tog, but that's just me. Did you mention, I think the rather beautiful advice from Sian yesterday about saying thank you

and goodbye to a house? No, we didn't. Okay. This was after we got that email last week from the listener who was preparing to leave her family home or what had been her family home. In fact, she was charged with selling it. And Sian says, in similar circumstances and with difficult family vibes, I left my family home in Wales for the final time last year. Also felt like I was grieving the house stroke home like it was a person in my life. Not knowing how to say goodbye, myself and my kids

wrote letters to the house and thanked it for all the happy and sad memories. Earlier that week I'd picked some flowers and leaves from the garden and I pressed them in a big book which I've now framed. I also planted a small climbing rose on the side of the house which I hope is still there. I realise it all sounds a bit odd but somehow also I just needed to say goodbye and thank you to the bricks and mortar that had been our family home." Sean, I think there's a sort of real poetry in that. I think that's rather a sensitive, not sensible, way of doing it. And you're right,

we just completely take for granted the structure of our houses, if we're lucky enough to have one. Anyway, maybe it's the drugs, but I found that really moving. So Sian, thank you very much for the email. I'd actually love to see a copy of that letter. The one that she wrote to the house? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That would be nice because I told you tonight that when I had some building work done because I had a crack in the plaster and the builders had to peel something back and they did find a little bit of paper in that kind of, sort of, not mottle and what was it called? Mottle and door? Waffle and door? Yeah. There were sort of elements of that, these little strips of quite fragile

looking wood underneath the plaster and there was a bit of paper and we unfurled it with great excitement but it was the runners and riders in the 430 at Kempton from 1914 or something like that. So, yeah. Well, that's good. I mean, it could not quite the moving note I'd been hoping for. But nevertheless, you know, we're all human. And some people went to the races, even then. There you go. And at least he didn't find a body.

Right, what are we doing? It's a trail for the podcast. Excellent. Giles Corran has no idea. She's decided to go out there and let Trump stitch himself up. So, so he goes, they're eating the cats, they're eating the dogs. And she goes, hee hee hee hee. Unvarnished, unapologetic.

And mostly unusable. Listen on the Times radio app. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Something completely different, but very important for you now running an open and free TV and radio network in Afghanistan over the last two decades might seem an impossibility, especially one where you want women to be as visible on screen and on the airwaves as men. This is what Saad Massani has managed to do. He's the boss of Moby Group, which is Afghanistan's largest media company operating Tolo TV and several

radio stations, including the hugely successful Arman Radio. Now, the stations used to broadcast music and entertainment shows, notably Afghan Star, which was a kind of X-factor music competition, but these have had to go since the Taliban took over in 2021. But the news side of his operation has remained and in fact it's employing more women on air than ever before. The terrible irony is that Afghan women might watch women tell them the news, but they now can't go out into the street and discuss it with anybody because the Taliban has silenced their public voices, citing their belief that in doing so they're combating vice and promoting

virtue. Well Saad Moussaini came in to talk about a book he's written called Radio Free Afghanistan and we started by talking about what listeners would have heard on Arman radio when it was absolutely pumping and allowed to broadcast whatever it wanted to. Well probably not the similar to many of your FM radio networks. Lots of music, chit chat in the mornings, traffic reports, updates on the news. So it was very lively and quite a bit of fun actually. And in the early years,

we used to have a lot of these call-in shows where people ring about their personal problems and so forth. And that was a lot of fun too in a different way. People would be just sort of intrigued in terms of people sharing their, you know, quite intimate problems for a place like Afghanistan was unheard of. So it was exciting. We had sort of all of the above on this one radio

network in 2003 and I think it was transformative for the country. There would have been a lot of women talking, wouldn't there, in 2003? We made sure that there were a lot of women talking. So it was pretty much split 50-50. So it was quite a challenge to employ women. A lot of families are reluctant to have their daughters work for us or sisters or wives. So it was keeping people employed, employing them, building capacity was all a challenge.

But for the listener, it was quite natural, quite organic. Yeah, and how popular were you? Well, I mean, it's looking back, I mean, just writing this book, you know, you reflect on what you did, and you know, all those years ago, and you're still doing. And what was extraordinary was it seemed like everyone was listening. It was the sort of the only independent radio or media outlet in those days. And just people were addicted to it for years. And of course we set up a TV station. Of course there was a lot of competition.

So you saw, like you would see in the UK, fragmentation of the market. But initially we had a virtual monopoly over the airwaves. We will talk more about the kind of threats and the difficulties that then followed in the years to come, but I think it's important to talk about you and your story too, because like so many Afghans, you'd have to leave your country hadn't you? You'd left in was it 1978 so you've been abroad for a lot of your life before you felt able to return. That's right well we were lucky that my father was a diplomat he was stationed in Japan when the Russians invaded in late 1979. So, and he resigned after the Russian invasion.

So for us, we couldn't go back. He represented the old regime and it wasn't gonna be easy for him to go back, actually quite unsafe. So we decided to immigrate to Australia in 1982. But we had this longing to go back. I think a lot of Afghans felt that way in those days. And when we had the opportunity in 2001, late 2001, we took full advantage.

We went back in 2002 and we set up this business. Quite an accidental business to be honest with you. I love the descriptions of you setting up the radio station in particular, which is basically a combination of hope, optimism and egg boxes, isn't it? When you first start. I mean, you really didn't know exactly how to achieve what you wanted, did you? And we had a limited budget. I mean, you have wonderful studios here in London. We didn't have the luxury of building state of the-the-art studio or studios. We had some equipment which was useful but pretty much we did it on the cheap and that's

why the egg boxes were so effective in terms of insulating the rooms for us or the studios. Yeah, they are emergency soundproofing, aren't they? We took a house basically built in the 70s and transformed them into studios. So we've set the scene then for what you had managed to achieve and I think that's so important because I think sometimes when we come to talk about Afghanistan we make an assumption in the West that it has had so many troubled years, it couldn't possibly have had a free media and an amazing radio station that had call-ins like Radio 1, that had loads of women talking openly, because times have changed so much. So can you tell

us a bit about when you first realised that that was all going to be threatened and to be silenced in a way? Well, from day one, I mean, it was so controversial just the fact that a male and female DJ or presenter would talk in a very casual way was controversial early on. So it's from day one, it was obvious that the conservative elements within our society would challenge what we were doing. But for us, I mean, we were very determined and very focused and we kept going. And we were lucky to have done what we did for 20 years. But the funny thing is that it forever transformed the country. Afghanistan is the youngest country outside of sub-Saharan Africa, median age is 18,

something like 80% of the population is under the age of 30. So it's been transformed forever. And even today, if you look at, if you go to Kabul, if you go to Mazar or Herat, the major cities in Afghanistan, there's almost this challenge as to who's gonna change who first. I mean, is it gonna be us changing the Taliban or vice versa?

So there's this tug of war in terms of the Afghan society which has been transformed by 20 years of progress and education and so forth and this sort of 12th century BC government that is intent on dragging Afghanistan back. But your power came from your popularity then? Yeah, I mean, I think if you... Ultimately, we gave people what they wanted. You know, sometimes you try new things,

you can never impose anything cultural on a population that doesn't want it. So ultimately, its popularity was a reflection of what people wanted to listen to or watch on television. Yeah and there are so many points that we could talk about that are important in your journey over the last 20 years and sadly we don't have time to do it but it is all beautifully described in the book but I wonder whether you can

tell us about, is it Kundus and my apologies if I'm pronouncing that incorrectly but that was quite a key thing to happen that then resulted in quite a devastating loss of life in your organization. That's correct well it was related to a story a female hostel where there were allegations that the women were attacked. That story was not true. It was a claim that the government officials had made in Kunduz. And for the Taliban, that was unacceptable, despite the story being corrected in a later bulletin.

And then they struck and they attacked one of our buses, which was carrying our employees. It resulted in seven deaths and 15 injuries, some quite serious loss of sight, limbs lost and so forth. And of course, we've lost other journalists in other incidents. So all up we've lost 12 employees. We're essentially like family members, like children or like siblings. So it's a, it's, and we were not the only ones. I think that if you talk to Afghans, everyone has lost a family member or a colleague or

a friend. It's a shared experience. But was that a point for you as a, you know, a very important person at the top of the organisation when you thought maybe we can't carry on doing what we're doing because people are dying, my responsibility in a way at work and tragedy has struck. How do you have that conversation with yourself? I think you ask yourself, is it worth it? Not for us, but for the people working for us.

And I put it to the employees that if that's what they wanted us to do, was to shut down the operation, we would be willing to do so. And I think it was very traumatizing for for all of us including us siblings the principles of the of the business but the most of our colleagues felt that we should we must continue we must persist which we did I mean obviously radio is often used as a tool of war and of propaganda most notably in the Rwandan genocide, which led to the United Nations actually calling some of those radio broadcasts that were made a weapon of war.

So how come the Taliban has not chosen to use radio in that way or have they and we just don't know enough about it? No, they were very effective in terms of use. I mean we had radio on television, we had platforms right across all media but they were very effective in terms of amplifying their messages, engaging the media. In some ways they were a lot more competent than the government media people. So they were very, very, very, they ended up being very professional actually. And even today the way they engage the media is actually quite smart. Even though their policies are so backward, but the way they manage the media, you know, you can say they're very effective. So when did you have to shut down after the Taliban took over the country?

Or, I mean, I know that they played you for a while, didn't they? They allowed you to use female employees, interviewing them. I think memorably, you know, quite a lot of Western media organizations wanted to believe that they had changed through those kind of scenarios But what then happened after they took over? Well media continues to Function inside inside of Afghanistan, but a women's still on air. The women are still honored. Yes Now they have to cover their faces and they wear surgical masks In order, you order to satisfy the Taliban

edict, but they continue to present programs, they continue to report on issues, they continue to produce programs. Ironically we have more female employees working for our news department than we did before August of 2021. What's happened to all the other cultural sounds though on the radio? You know, when we talked at the beginning and you said you know you can have problem phone-ins, you can have people talking about all the kinds of things that we have on our radio stations here. Can that still be heard? There's no music, no dramas, soap operas, but you can have game shows, you can have

chat shows. So I think if you turn the TV on, it seems sort of normal until you realize that there's the silence when it comes to music and other entertainment programs are deafening. But you know, Afghans have options now, they can get online and they can watch things on YouTube. So it's not, it's challenging for us as an operator, but I think for the viewer, you know, they're not faced with a complete and total blackout. How can the Taliban justify the edicts that they've made about women needing to remain silent in public when they're going about their daily lives and women still being allowed to speak and be visible in the media?

Well, that's a good question because we don't know. So the edicts were issued, I think, a week ago, or 10 days ago, and from a policy side, their stance has hardened, but from an execution side, they're allowing people to function. But at some stage, it has to come to a head. So within the Taliban, we're seeing sort of a battle between the diehard ideological types and the more pragmatic types who understand that this is a different century and a different country. And it will probably come to a head at some stage. I mean at the moment we're allowed to do what we've been doing for the last two or three

years but I'm not sure what the future holds for us and others. And how much can you broadcast freely to encourage the more pragmatic side of the Taliban to promote that as opposed to the pure evil side of the Taliban? You know, editorially, are you very, do you have to be very, very circumspect in what you say? I think we have to be careful. From a news perspective, anything we need to air, we air. Now sometimes without much fanfare, but there's obviously no news we do not cover, even if it's controversial, even if it's dangerous to our journalists, we have to cover those stories. But yeah, we have to be very careful in terms of how we report on things. And there's obviously sort of a battle of sorts between the more ideological,

dogmatic elements and the more sort of pragmatic elements. And both sides want to use the media to amplify their narrative. And we're there right in the middle. Yeah. Do you believe that the international community is doing its very best to support your country? And actually, and I don't mean to constantly refer back to women, but it's a subject close to our hearts on the program and the podcast. Where are the people on an international stage really standing up and saying what's happened to the women of Afghanistan is intolerable and must change? I think they say what they need to say but I think beyond that I think there is Afghanistan fatigue for 20 odd years. The international

community was deeply involved, building girls' schools and talking about Afghanistan, spending hundreds of billions of dollars on different types of efforts to help Afghanistan. A lot of it went to the military, of course, but a lot of it also went into development. So I think there's this fatigue, especially if you're in Washington, there's this,

I joke with people that if they could expunge the word So I think there's this fatigue, especially if you're in Washington, there's this, I joke with people that if they could expunge the word Afghanistan from the dictionary, they would do that, especially this administration, the Biden administration, which was so traumatized after the withdrawal and the scenes of people falling out of aircraft and so forth. But I think Afghanistan is too important, whether it's terrorism or drugs or refugees. Someone told me the other day there are 250,000 Afghans today in the UK from 2000 in 1995. So huge jump. And if Afghanistan gets mired in conflict again, most of those Afghans will end up in

Europe and the UK. I mean, we're only two countries away from Europe, Iran, Turkey and Europe. So it's, it's, you cannot completely and totally ignore Afghanistan. There's a moral side of it, but I think just purely a pragmatic politician will need to somehow, you know, argue the case for remaining engaged in Afghanistan. So where do you think we'll all be in 10 years time? Well the hope is that the Taliban, which has seems to have absolute control over the country, moderates and they become more inclusive and they allow other groups to share in governing,

allow women, give them more freedom. I mean, I think they've done some good things. They've been less corrupt. They've issued an amnesty which stopped the country from, you know, going back into a situation where hundreds of thousands of people were going to get killed. They've stopped the cultivation and processing of drugs, of heroin and opium. So they've done some good things and the country seems to be a lot more secure, mostly because the Taliban were doing, you know, and the Americans and the Taliban and the Afghan side,

which was supported by the Americans, are fighting and that fighting has stopped. So the security situation has improved. So there are some positive things that you can see, but nonetheless, it's not enough. And there will be a generation of young women who have not had access to education. You're not allowed to get past sixth grade now, is that correct in Afghanistan if you're a young girl? I mean, if you're a young girl and you're, you know, about to enter seventh grade, you're 12 or 13, you're stuck at home.

I mean, psychologically, the impact of that will traumatize an entire generation of young girls. Yeah. What could women do in the West if they listen to this? And a lot of people contact our podcasts and say exactly that. Whenever we talk about Afghanistan, they want to know what they can do to be helpful. What would you advise? I mean I think ultimately it's a battle for us Afghans to fight and we have an obligation to convince folks in Kabul or Kandahar the leadership to moderate its education policies. But the international community, I think, continues to assist and help when it comes to humanitarian development. And I think it has some leverage, but it doesn't... I'm not saying it's a hopeless situation, it's a very complicated situation.

Because I do not think you can bully the Taliban into changing its education policy. No, they are the bullies. It's so lovely to meet you. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. I would like to end just by reading a tiny passage from your book, which actually just made me laugh out loud. It's very prescient and I hope you don't mind me reading it in your presence, but it's about when you started Arman, the radio station, the dairy word for hope,

we started hiring and immediately we received hundreds of applications from both men and women, very few of the applicants had any radio experience, but then again neither did we. Our collective inexperience could be a virtue, we reasoned. We wanted to start something totally new with people who could speak and understand both Pashto and Dari and hadn't been trained on the flowery, almost Shakespearean state of state radio. They don't say, give me a glass of water, as I joke. They say, would you please be kind enough to pass me that glass of beverage of the clear

variety? And that made me laugh because that's, apart from anything else, that's so Radio 4, the way that they say all of that stuff at the end. So congratulations on all that you've done. It's really lovely to meet you. Thank you. Saad Masseni, and his book is out at the moment. It's called Radio Free Afghanistan. So I think there are so many things that come out of that, Jane. I found it a very surprising conversation because it actually confounded my assumption about where all women in Afghanistan find themselves at the moment. And clearly there is a grey area

isn't there, into which the Taliban for whatever reason, probably propaganda, has stepped because it does them huge favors if they allow women to carry on appearing on their media, even if you couldn't as a woman watch a woman on television and then go out into the street and have a conversation about what you've just seen a woman tell you on television. That's the horrible nasty irony, isn't it? But I found it quite helpful. I had to do quite a lot of thinking actually about some of the stuff that Saad Moussaini was talking about, but I think it is helpful actually to realise that there are nuances in that country at the moment. Would you agree?

I think you're right, but I think we have to accept, let's say, well, we don't know, do we, what foreign correspondents routinely say about the UK? I mean, obviously, every foreign major news agency will have somebody here reporting our events. And I know, do you remember the most a phase where the New York Times was doing a whole series of articles really running down the UK and being pretty critical actually. And a lot of people got really offended. And you realize that we don't see ourselves in the same way as a foreign correspondent might see us. And we get a bit angry when we're thought of it or our politics is reported in a way that doesn't suit us. Anyway, that's a long-winded way of saying I suppose we should keep an open mind and hear what he's got to say.

Yes and also realise that there is an incredible dance, you've got to dance if you want to stay operating in Afghanistan at the moment, where it's not collusion with a regime but in order to carry on doing what you're doing as a journalist there is there's a place where you constantly have to meet the regime isn't there? Which obviously you know sometimes we will make a big song and dance about in this country but by no means is that a comparison that bears very much scrutiny. So we'd love your thoughts on all of that. It's Jane and Fee at times.radio. We do hope to be in the studio together tomorrow although if

I can just confess I've got the cold of the autumn school return at the moment, Jane, so I hope we're not playing some kind of hide-and-seek game this week on the podcast and I do wish you well. I hope you're back tomorrow and I hope I'm here too. I am absolutely certain I will be, so thank you to the dentist, everyone concerned and to the inventors of antibiotics, but anyway on we go. Congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee, thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online, on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offer is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Hi I'm Katie Prescott, Technology Business Editor at The Times. On the 1st of October, I'll be hosting our annual Tech Summit in London. We're bringing together a stellar lineup of tech leaders in the room and on the stage, including Demis Hassabis, the founder of Google DeepMind, and Peter Kyle, the UK's new tech secretary. You can sign up at the following address, times-event.com forward slash tech summit hyphen virtual. I hope you can make it.