Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Oxygen is thin up here on our moral high ground (with Yulia Navalnaya)

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

The Jane and Fi complaints box has been well and truly opened. They tackle your rants, seedy tomatoes, scams and Trump. Plus, Fi speaks to Yulia Navalnaya, widow of Alexei Navalny, the anticorruption activist poisoned and murdered by the Kremlin, about her husband's memoir 'Patriot'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We've had some very seedy images of tomatoes from you. Thank you very much. A tomato does lend itself to a buttock joke though, doesn't it? Yeah. It's its own fault, Joan. It's certainly, it's being all red and out there. The Times podcast How to Win an Election is back. A very, very complex, fractured, truculent, volatile electorate.

We're still taking you inside the biggest political stories with the help of some of the biggest brains in Westminster. So long as we all drink more Kool-Aid, we're going to be fine. Join Peter Mandelson, Polly McKenzie, Danny Finkelstein and now me, Hugo Rifkind. Think of me if you like as a sort of Daniel Craig taking over from Pierce Brosnan as 007. Listen now to How to Win an Election.

from Piers Brosnan as 007. Listen now to how to win an election. locations across Northern Europe, the Mediterranean and the Greek Isles, unpacking only once and exploring multiple European destinations in one holiday. They offer exclusive go local shore excursions as well as an immersive program of on-board experiences. I can't lie, I'm intrigued by up to 21 dining options on a single ship. Well Jane, their fleet has so many unique bars, lounges and restaurants. They also have fantastic entertainment, shows, facilities on board. You wouldn't be short of things to do. Plan ahead to discover your dream Europe 2025 cruise. It's certainly one way to beat the winter blues. Experience more at sea with Norwegian Cruise Life.

For more information call 0333 222 6513. Contact your travel agent or visit ncl.com. Welcome, welcome to our podcast. Now just a couple of quickies before we get going because we've got a very, I think it's fair to say we've had a proper cross-section of humanity as Navalny and she's talking about her husband's book, Patriot, which is his memoir, but also his prison diaries. And it's a phenomenal book and it's an extraordinary story. And he just is Jane, one of those people who has changed the world a bit. So if you think where we would be in our relationship with Russia if he hadn't detailed the corruption, the almost farcical management of the country and the real lack of morality that runs throughout the whole system there, we might feel a little bit differently.

I just can't underestimate the impact of him and of course he's been murdered by a state which still in my lifetime I find mind boggling. And so Julia I'm sure will have plenty to say about all of those things and we will devote quite a bit of time actually to her interview because she's worth it. That is coming up a little bit later then. Caroline says, your musings on timekeeping reminded me of an interview I read in the early 2000s with a former girlfriend of Paul McCartney and subsequent esteemed cake baker, if you know you know, yes I know, who said in the interview that she made a point of being late for everything so that she was

never the one kept waiting as that would be a huge waste of her time. Wow. I never ate one of her cakes or bought one of her branded aprons ever again, says Caroline. I think that's weird for a cake baker because you've got to be really on the timer for cake baking, haven't you? You can't just leave it in the oven because your time's more important than it's. The cake. Perhaps Paul McCartney messed her about once in the 1970s or was it 60s when they were together? I can't remember. She was obviously just not one to make herself the least important individual in the room. Or even just on equal terms. But look, she may have changed. That was the early 2000s.

Time has gone on since then. Whether she likes it or not, she could have changed, that was the early 2000s. Time has gone on since then. Whether she likes it or not, she could have totally refocused. Now we did discuss on the live radio show yesterday, by the way, our listening figures were out and we've increased the audience. So if you're a regular or even a new listener to Time's Radio, we want to say thanks for that because that's good. Thank you very much. And if you don't listen live to the radio programme, you can find it very easily, Monday to Thursday,

2 o'clock till 4. I think the easiest way, if you don't have a DAB radio, or even if you do, is just to get the Times Radio app, which is free. And you can listen anywhere in the world. You can, can't you? Anywhere in the world. You certainly can. It's as if this is a sponsored broadcast. An internet. Can I also say, maybe we could start a little subversive campaign as well to just leave all of the radios on in your house, because people always have more than one chain.

Just leave them all on Times Radio, especially in the afternoons. If you don't want to listen, just turn the volume down, but leave it on. Well, or better than that, drive around your area with your radio blasting out Times Radio between two and four. You could do that. Yeah, you might annoy a few people. Donald has emailed on the subject of older people driving, which is something that cropped

up on the radio show yesterday. My mother had dementia, says Donald. She still wanted to drive. So I think they were wrestling with this issue for quite some time. In the end, they just changed her car keys. This stopped her driving, but she was then reassured that her car was still in the drive if she needed it. Which is one method that I know other people have tried. I know it's really difficult this and I wouldn't really rush to give advice, but that's one possible solution.

Let us know if you have found others, if there is an older person in your life who wants to drive when quite frankly they shouldn't. Although as I said yesterday, there are plenty of younger people who are also really crap drivers. Yeah, actually the statistics really bear that out too, don't they? Yeah, they do. A very quick one from Hattie, and thank you for this, it's so obvious Hattie, when you put it down in the words, the reason children's shoes get so scuffed is because of the way they sit and play, mostly on the floor and mostly in positions that adults can no longer attempt.

Bum on floor with knees bent back either side or just kneeling. Plus their shoes tend to be softer and less robust than ours, so they're easier to scuff. Of course that's it Hattie, isn't it? And unless you're doing some advanced yoga, you're absolutely right. You never find yourself in that position and you're just, you're permanently on a chair, aren't you? You're not on the floor very much as an adult. I miss that. Let's get, let's do a show. Let's do a show, cross-legged. On the floor.

On the floor. I think our posture is better when we sit on the floor, don't you? Yes, it probably is. Why would that be though? Well, because both buttocks are on a level, aren't they? On a hard surface. Speaking of which, we've had some very seedy images of tomatoes from you. Thank you very much. A tomato does lend itself to a buttock joke though, doesn't it? It's its own fault, Joan. It's being all red and out there. There was an interview yesterday on the podcast with

Keirat. You will know her if you've heard the Sweet Bobby podcast or you've seen the Netflix documentary on the subject of catfishing. And an anonymous emailer has said, I have been a recent victim of catfishing. Somebody went to a great deal of time and effort to single me out via a fake Facebook page. Now the page faked was of a well-known artist, somebody I really liked and respected. It ended with an increasingly desperate request three months later for £15,000, supposedly to pay a divorce lawyer. Now this was after a flurry of emails containing well-paced loving

messages drawing me in over those three months. I was suspicious initially and indeed many times in between. Nevertheless the scammer drew me in gradually despite the fact that I'd previously sworn never to be in a personal relationship ever again after a 16 year long marriage to a violent man. I'm in my late 50s and I was flattered that this artist would want a future with me at all. I almost lost all reason, despite friends and family warning me that it sounded like a scam. As it is, I didn't give the scammer £15,000 as I did eventually see sense. I

contacted the real artist and informed him. He was horrified and confirmed it was a scammer. He's happily married, other women have been approached as well. We have jointly reported all this to Facebook. What I find the most staggering is the sheer amount of time and effort that the scammer went to, to flatter and to praise me, even to tie messages with the real artist's time zones in the world according to his tour schedule. I'm so sorry, I really am sorry and we both send our very best wishes to you. This is horrible and as you point out there, it's the intricacy of what these horrible people get up to. They are cruel beyond belief.

Well, it's their only job, isn't it? So they're just sitting there. Dedicated to it. Yes, yeah. It's just vile. And it's one of those things, it's like arms manufacturers. If you're that good at something and if you're that creative, imagine what you could do if you put your mind to something good.

If you did something else. Not something evil. Please don't be too hard on yourself. I know I have come so close to sending money to a scammer. So close. In my case, it was something that happened about 10 years ago. Someone who plausibly might have done this emailed me to say they were in financial trouble and could I help them? And then I realized that it was a scam. Yes. But honestly, I was hovering. I've had that was a scam. Yes, you know I've...

Honestly, I was hovering. I've had that about a motorised wheelchair. There you go. Same one? I don't think, no, this was somebody who was trapped abroad who needed my help. Okay. But I know that there is a scam going round with, you know, anybody who's got even the slimmest of profiles is asked to donate, you know, because they should be the ones who care and could we do a feature about it and all that

kind of stuff and it's not for real. I haven't had that one but... That's quite recent. I'll look out for it. But to anyone who has been on the receiving end of this vile business, just cut yourself some slack because all of us are, all of us are susceptible. We really, really are. Yep. And a little PS comes in from Marie who says Airtex is actually the registered brand name and was invented by the interior designer, Nicky Haslam's family.

I did not know that. Nicky Haslam's the one who does the, this is common, tea-tale routine. Yes, every year for reasons I simply don't understand. He gets huge amounts of coverage. Oh, come on, Jayde, it's because he's funny. Half funny. Oh, I think he is funny. He's just so daft. I don't mind having a laugh about that. And then I have to look around my house and nearly everything in it he thinks is common. I've got a velvet sofa. I've got photographs on the walls. I've got a canvas print.

Photographs on the wall are? They're common. You should only have a photograph of the Queen and it should be on a bookshelf or a piano. But you should have photographs on your walls. And you shouldn't have a velvet sofa. Who knew? Who knew? I think the palaces across Europe are stuffed with velvet sofas.

So he just makes it up but I think his hit rate's quite good. That's what it is, isn't it? I'm seething. And so's Michael who headlines his email We Welcome Rants. I wanted to hear your interview with Julian Clary yesterday so I listened to the podcast for the first time in quite a while. I'm a liberal metropolitan man and I had to take a break because of your insistence on perpetuating tired gender stereotypes. I find it alienating. Women this, men that, it's never-ending. I did like the interview with Julian this, men that, it's never-ending.

I did like the interview with Julian, but in discussing the issues he's experiencing with his rescue dog, Fee declared it was common for abused dogs to have fear-based issues around men, did you? I did. Your Honour. My guilty is charged. Don't worry, it comes on to me in a minute. Case in point, the implication being that animal abuse is obviously an issue about men. I don't think that was. No, but just in my lived experience, Michael, that has been the case. So we had a rescue dog, a family dog, when I was growing up, who was absolutely fine

around women and as soon as the man entered the room he just whimpered and scurried away and you know hashtag not all men but I think a lot of trainers are men and quite a lot of nasty dog owners can be men. I'm sorry about that I'm just confirming the stereotype here. Don't worry Michael's weighing in. In the interest of balance he says as a male couple in central London, we agreed to rehome our latest rescue dog, also a work in progress, because he was terrified of women having been ritually abused by one. Perhaps a less binary and demeaning perspective might stop men like me from tuning out, unless of course you want us to. Incidentally, I chuckled when Jane earnestly told Julian she completely understood that his dog being taken out in a buggy when its health deteriorated she

said it was fine well the last time I tuned in she ridiculed and dismissed that very thing as weirdness if memory serves me right you did I did Michael we're both guilty and we apologize yeah so don't you know and also can I just say Michael as a proper plea um just I listen to loads of things on the radio and get annoyed with them and don't like them and stuff and but I don't ever want to switch off, don't switch us off. Well you did, you switched off. Just bear off our hypocrisy. Times radio this morning. Well I-

Nigel Farage was on. Yes, that's true. But also I listened but only because I think my medication has been tweaked because I was able to carry on to the end. I think everyone needs to be aware of what I suspect will be a pattern over the next rather tense Fortnite or so. Do you know what? It was the fact, Jane, that he was saying that Donald Trump is showing his true wonderful self at the moment, and one of the examples he gave was working in McDonald's. And I just had to... I know.

I just... Because that's not his true self. He's never going to do a shift in McDonald's. He didn't do a shift in McDonald's. It was a closed McDonald's. A couple of bags of fries. And you know, you just can't, it was just really, really, even for Nigel Farage, bizarre contortion of the truth thing to say. And that just annoyed me. And the bit that really got to me too was when he described Kamala Harris as becoming hysterical.

Watch for this, you'll be hearing hysterical aimed at her by people like him over the next 10 days or so. Because we all know that women can't be angry, they're always quotes hysterical. And also if you're going to call out her language, and I'm not sure about the use of the term fascist either, if you look at what is in the opponents language bank, there's quite a pile up in there. Listen, we're both very much heading to the place called Tether's End about all this, but anyway. I've booked my mobile home slot at Tether's End.

I've flashed in my tent poles. We are about all this but anyway, but my mobile home slot at Tether's end flashed in my tent poles Thanks for the emails as well from the states and we know lots of people out there over there across the pond Pretty pretty wound up about this too Briefly before we get to our big interview today I want to welcome Emma who says I've never written in before But I'm listening to the podcast where you're sad about kids in restaurants on screens and it hit me in the guts a bit. I'm a single parent to a two-year-old a donor baby so this is 100% all on me in the end. I totally thought I wouldn't be a person who let my child have a screen and believe me we take books and colouring and the odd duplo piece

but honestly I just do it because I don't want to disturb other people's enjoyment in the restaurant. I am paraphrasing there, but I know that was the gist of what you you were saying. So it's an absolute no win. She goes on to say, if your child is noisy, mine is an escape artist and you're judged if you keep them quiet with a screen. But you've tried everything else. Believe me,

it's the only thing I can do. To be honest, the best lunch out for me in the Lytton was at a National Trust restaurant. I could only afford a jacket potato and a baby chino for us to share and we hadn't even got the food when you could see the situation brewing, so the two of us sat outside in the rain, shared our potato and warm milk, singing, singing in the rain, shared our potato and warm milk, singing, singing in the rain, and trying to catch our floating beans by the end. I bet half the people would have judged me, but they shouldn't.

Okay. Well, I would just say... I hope I've read that out properly Emma. I had to just paraphrase it, to squeeze it in. But you're using it as a last resort. So I think you're absolutely excused from our very judgmental moral high ground where the oxygen is thin. But we're still breathing it. Final one from me, this is anonymous. I agree with you. There's no need for poolside rummaging in the communal showers. In the showers of the pool I swim at, a regular female swimmer gives her undercarriage a good

sponging with seemingly no shyness. Another female swimmer brushes her teeth and shaves, keeping said toothbrush and razor in the straps of her cosy. Quite disgusting. That's amazing isn't it? Look at Rosie's face. Not good. I'm just going to say. I quite like that. I think a swimmer's tool belt. You've got a razor, a toothbrush, a loofah, some shampoo, some conditioner and some body wash. I think that is a marketable thing. I'm on it. Can we get going on that? Could be our new merch.

It could. We'll put some people onto that. Some of our many, many people will be thinking of nothing else but that over the next couple of days. Hello to Susan who's in New England. I've lived in New England all my life and New England hasn't voted for any of the past idiots. If this country elects Trump again, I really might leave. I was looking at house prices in England yesterday, near the coast. Not cheap. Or maybe I could just start a petition for New England to leave the Union. Well, good luck with that. England, yes, property here is not cheap.

But if we could be a refuge, I'm sure we'd be happy to do so. I don't think New England is a sort of Democrat place, isn't it? It'll be interesting, those places at the opposite ends of the political spectrum. Could you not set up quite good business doing a home and life swap between Portland and somewhere in Florida? So why don't we just do swaps? This is a TV show where you swap. So let's say you live in a place called a certain name in Britain and you move to the American equivalent. So you live in Birmingham and you go to the other Birmingham.

Should we do that? So it's like colonialism but they come back. I mean that is why they're all called Birmingham, New England. Yes, that's right. Let's, Anonymous says, you've probably been inundated with tales of woe from the children of medical parents after your podcast last week, but I'm the child of a GP and an A&E consultant and the sister of an anaesthetist and I'm here to confirm that we were the ones sneezing our way through lessons. The peak example was the day I cracked my coccyx in

PE. My father came to the school, drove me round the corner to his hospital, where I was treated pretty swiftly so I could return and kneel my way through my history lesson that afternoon. I have often said, largely in jest, that the reason I did a PhD in English literature was so that I wouldn't be the only one in the family without the title. But it is quite handy having doctors in the family. They're often quite the triage issues for me and my close friends before we book appointments. Thanks for all the chats that cheer up my commute. I'm fairly leggy and I still love a skinny jean with knee-high boots. Oh, but you see, I think you've probably got...

You use the word leggy. Yep, you've got good legs. I think if you've got the chubbier thigh, the skinny jean with knee-high boots, I don't know, it just looks like dressing up gone wrong on me anyway. Emily just wants you to know for you that she enjoys your accents. Fat and happy! She describes herself as 47 and the mum of two grown-up daughters. Well, there we are, there'll be more. I'm not gonna say fat and happy

Next week. He's old. He's fat and happy And that man is Italian This episode of off-air is sponsored by the National Art Pass. Now Jane There's nothing I like better than a trip to a gallery or a museum on a rainy afternoon. And let's be honest, we get quite a lot of those in the UK don't we? I do feel that looking at a bit of art is more than just kind of looking at a bit of art if you know what I mean. I think it can really stay with you long after the visit, kind of feeds the soul. Yeah,

you're on to something there because scientific research suggests that regularly looking at art could help you live longer, plus lots of other well-known benefits to boost your wellbeing and help reduce stress. So why not get a National Art Pass? It gives you free and half price entry at hundreds of museums and galleries and only costs £59.25 for an individual pass. And there's a reduced price for under £s and you can also purchase plus one and plus kids add-ons. Free or half price entry and a chance of living longer I am sold. The National Art Pass. See more, live more. Get your pass at artfund.org

forward slash off air. The Times Tech Podcast, sponsored by ServiceNow. A podcast presented from San Francisco and from London. Each week, a fresh interview with pioneers in tech from the brightest startups to the tech giants. That's the Times Tech podcast where Danny in the valley, that's Silicon Valley, meets me, Katie, in the city, the city of London. Exploring how tech is changing life and business in this new world of artificial intelligence. The Times Tech podcast with Katie Prescott. And Danny Fortson.

Follow us now wherever you get your podcasts. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Halloween horror is about this spooky season with these hair-raising podcasts. The Magnus Protocol. Catch you next time, dearie. No, you won't. After Dark.

And with that, the curtain falls on the story of Anne Boleyn. The Red Room. Exploring Irish ghost stories and haunted Irish history. Listen to these Acast shows wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Now Alexei Navalny's place in history is assured. The charismatic opponent of Putin, whose FBK, the Anti-Corruption Foundation, showed Russians

how their leaders were behaving, creaming off the country's money for their own benefit, living lavish lifestyles and removing anybody who stood in the way of them, including in 2024 in a far-flung Siberian jail serving a sentence on trumped-up charges Alexei himself, who was killed. Over the course of his years in jail, he wrote his memoir. It contains his prison diaries, the attempted murder through Novichok poisoning in 2020, but also his early years, how he gained his political conscience and how he met his wife, Yulia, who's vowed to continue his work to bring Putin's leadership of Russia to an end. She came into Times Towers today to talk about the book, which is called Patriot. And it's a phenomenal book and it's an extraordinary story. Julia, it's really lovely to meet you. I sometimes feel bad

about interviewing people when they're having to talk about somebody that they love who is no longer here and you're having to do this so much now in your life and because of this book. is it sometimes quite difficult for you? Hello, thank you for having me and it's a great pleasure to be here today. It's a great question, it's not sometimes, it's all the time very hard, but I found it to be one of the biggest parts of my job to speak about my husband, to speak about his legacy. It's very important for me that his voice will sound even more loud than it was before. It's very important for me to keep his memory, to remember people that he

was killed in Russian prison, because just because of his political views. That's why of course it's hard. It's hard to remember every day that your beloved husband, dead that very young in age 47, he was really incredible man. He was a leader of opposition, he was a big fear to Vladimir Putin and he was not just my husband, he was not just my partner, he was the outstanding person I knew and he was a real leader of democratic Russia. There is so much that we now find out in the book about your husband and about his life, his early years, his family, how he met you. It's a really, really well-rounded memoir actually. I was particularly interested in what shaped him and his political views.

When he was growing up, Chernobyl and the disaster there actually had a huge impact on his life. And he says in the book that he wouldn't have had the political views that he had were it not to have been for that disaster. Can you tell us a bit more about that? I think that it's very well described in a book and all the chapters about his childhood He writes that Chernobyl put a big impact on his political views and understanding that we need sometimes when you live in dictatorship countries to separate the government officials and the people of this country. And Chernobyl disaster was very good example in it because all people around were suffering, knew that some kind of very big disaster happened from the other side like it always happens

happened in Soviet Union and then in Russia it happened the same. Officials just wanted to keep silence and to persuade people that nothing serious was going on. And it's all the time works like these people, officials, they afraid that people, the explanation of officials that people will behave in the wrong way in such kind of situation. But that's not true and Alexei writes it in his book and I absolutely agree that ordinary people are usually very, have very good discipline and mobilized very well in such situations. Just the one thing is needed, which is needed to explain them that this disaster is going on and they need to follow some rules in this situation.

So he very clearly saw, even though he was so young, that people were just lying, the officials were just lying about what had happened. And of course it's the people of Russia, the people around Chernobyl who then suffered. Of course and it continues to be like this even now. The same propaganda in Russia is very strong and propaganda lies to people but still a lot of people in Russia that they understand that it's propaganda and they are looking for independent sources of information. We will obviously talk about his politics throughout the interview, but I also just

wanted to talk about him as a young man because he was tall and handsome and clever. Not kind of show-offy top of the class clever, not kind of show-offy top-of-the-class clever, was he, but he managed to get a place at the fabulously titled Patrice Lumumba People's Friendship University of Russia. For people who don't know, Patrice Lumumba was a Congolese politician who was killed by right-wing radicals with the help of the CIA and the Belgians as well. How political was Alexei by the time he got to that university, do you think? It's difficult for me to answer this question because I met him when we graduated the university. But you know, me and Alexei, we are from the same generation. And we grew up in the years when the Soviet Union fallen and Russia became the democratic country for several years, I would say. And so we all were very, our families were very

politically involved in everything because we got the kind of free elections, we got a lot of free media one day. So Alexei describes it in his book and I can share with you that it was the same in my family. There were a lot of discussions, there were new political programs on TV and we discussed with parents and him and me with our parents at this program. So when we met and he was 22, we discussed politics a lot because it was obvious we were living in new democratic Russia and we were very interested in this. Let's talk about how you met because he describes it so fantastically. It was love at first sight for him, wasn't it? He had managed to get a window seat on a coach.

This was on a post-university trip and he saw you from that window seat on the coach and he just describes your positivity. You were excited to be going into a hotel, weren't you? You'd thrown your arms up in the air, just like, wow, I'm here, I'm having a great time. And he decided in that moment that you were the woman for him. What did you think when you first met him? I liked him very much.

As you mentioned, he was really handsome and very nice the first evening. He was funny from the first words and I like in people, I love in people very much when they are joking a lot, when they are funny. It's always much much more easier with such kind of people. He says that you are more radical in your politics than he was. Is that true? Probably once I need to say no, that's false. Because all people all the time asking me this question. My husband was a politician and I was following very much Russian politics and was very much involved, but it's very easy to be radical when you

discuss politics on the kitchen. Obviously he did incredibly well. He stood for election, didn't he, which really shook the Kremlin because he got 27% of the vote in an election to be mayor of Moscow. It really rattled their cage. He says in the book, the year 2012 set a pattern in my life, an endless vicious circle for many years to come. Protest, rally, arrest, protest, rally, arrest. The Kremlin soon realised that, so in December they brought four new criminal cases against me. I'd stolen the timber from the Kirov region, I'd stolen money from the French company Yves Rocher,

I'd stolen a hundred million rubles from the Union of Right Forces party, and my favourite, I'd stolen a distillery in Kirov. Now, I'm glad you laughed at that because Yulia, I mean this is just beyond farce. I'm not able now to count all the criminal cases which were opened against him, which were announced by TV or in some kind of government newspapers and they then never happened. Just to show people that something is wrong with him, just for the news. Yeah, but it is just so bizarre, isn't it? Because those trumped up charges, I mean, they're just not even clever.

They just seem so utterly, utterly daft. You know, as I told you, I don't know if it's clever or not, because still a lot of people watch TV in Russia, and we don't have independent TV. And you're able to choose TV channel, but any TV channel is about propaganda. That's why when you switch on your TV set and on any channel they say Navalny is still something, people start to believe it's how it works because for example here in the United Kingdom or in any democratic countries, you are able to choose. If you don't like this channel or this radio, you can just go to another one. Don't invite people to do that, Julia, please. No, no, no. Excellent discussion, please. Don't switch on to another channel.

I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. And let's move on to the terrible, horrible, dark cloud that then gathers against him, which is a threat on his life, obviously with the poisoning. But I didn't know that you'd been poisoned too with Novichok. Can you talk us through what happened then? We discovered it several months later when it was an investigation of poisoning of my husband. Because before we just thought that I felt bad. Sometimes it happened with people. There was investigation about my husband's poisoning. One evening I discovered that I feel really bad.

And it wasn't any explanation like Alexei writes about his poison. I just felt very bad. But as I mentioned before, we thought, okay, it happens sometimes, but I feel like tremendously bad. And during this investigation, they, when they realized that they were sezians, we just put these things together and my husband realized that it could be poisoning me as well. The description of your husband's Novichok poisoning and him falling ill on the plane

is really difficult to read. I never met your husband, I'm not attached to him. It must have been incredibly painful, obviously for you and your family. But what's so sinister about it, Julia, is the way that the poisoning, it didn't make him foam at the mouth or have a seizure or something huge. He just felt that his life was just draining out of him.

It's an extraordinarily horrible thing to happen to a human, isn't it? Of course it's awful what he describes it's... I think that he describes it in a very good way so you can feel like it was going on with this human being. And it's awful what was happening with him but anyway I think that the most awful thing is about that government can poison their political opponents. Yeah for sure. He was definitely saved by Angela Merkel wasn't he who came to visit him and she put the pressure on Putin to allow him to be sent to a German hospital, which

undoubtedly saved his life. I am very grateful to Angela Merkel. She put a great effort to save his life, but I couldn't mention also some other world officials from Finland, from France, they were very supportive. And of course, the most important, all the supporters in Russia who were on the streets and writing everywhere on social media asking him to be released immediately and sent to Germany, they helped me a lot. Without them it wasn't possible. media asking him to be released immediately and sent to Germany. They helped me a lot. Without them it wasn't possible. Do you still feel supported by

the international community? I still feel supported. Not just with international community, with people in Russia as well and with Russians who are in exile, I feel the big support. Everywhere where I have a public event or in my social media, I got a big support of a lot of people, Russians and international community as well. After that poisoning, was there ever a moment where you and your husband sat down and said enough's enough? Never. I knew that after this conversation he would be unhappy and he knew that he wants to continue his fight. It was very important for him to show

that after even after poisoning he will he doesn't afraid he will continue what he been doing all his life and he wanted a democratic changes. He was a great leader and he could become a great president of democratic Russia. I knew how he worked every day. I knew how he studied every day to be better. I knew how open he was to all people around. But it's quite an ask for you, isn't it? Because you had two children, you were presumably basically bringing them up on your own.

He went back to Russia and he was arrested. And I haven't heard you speak very often about the toll that that may have taken just on you. It's a lot to do on your own. It's a lot to do on your own. It's a lot to do. It's all the time very... not difficult question. I understand that it looks like it's very difficult, but for me it wasn't... it never been a choice to say him enough is enough. I wanted to be supported. I was supported. And I hope that this support brings him a lot of strength

and a lot of power in his work because we share the same belief. We knew that we need changes in our country and it happened so that my husband was leader of these changes. Much of the book and the last part of the book is obviously about how he coped in prison and I have to hand it to your husband, Julia, for making the reader smile sometimes, making the reader laugh. It's not what I was expecting from a prison diary. He details how hard it is, of course he does, but there is a remarkable positivity in his writing all the way through. Was there ever a time when that wasn't who he was and what he was experiencing?

That actually he told you a different story of just how blem and awful everything was? He was really very optimistic, even in such torturing conditions. And you're right that he describes awful conditions, but he loves these conditions at Prisoner Guard and at himself. He spends quite a lot of time telling us that he really regrets not asking you for salt because he's managed to get hold of tomatoes, cucumbers. It was just one month while he was in prison in Moscow it was much easier and it was able to send him sold because after then that when he was transferred to penal colony

it wasn't possible even to send to sold but coming back to your question about if he told me something else, of course our letters probably were more deep even than these prison diaries, but he never regret about these even in our personal letters and I miss it a lot. Of course I miss my husband but I miss these letters because they gave me a lot of power all these years while he was in prison. So I would say that he was very supportive to me. I think the tone of the book is very interesting, Julia. It wasn't what I was expecting either, because it's not full of a kind of everything can be rosy in the garden if we waved a magic wand of Western democracy or whatever it is.

But it is absolutely full of what the heart of Russia should be. And he writes this, I hate Putin because he's stolen the last 20 years from Russia. These could have been incredible years, the sort of period we've never had in our history. We had no enemies, we had peace on our borders, the price of natural resources was high. Putin could have used these years to turn Russia into a prosperous country.

All of us could have lived better. And that, I felt, was absolutely the spine of your husband, wasn't it? That belief in the goodness of Russia that has been completely overshadowed by this man. If you sat down with Putin, what would you say to him? And of course we know it might not make any difference, Julia, but what would you say to him about exactly that? Nothing. I don't think that I want to speak with Putin.

I don't think that I have something to discuss with Putin. And I just want to remind to all the world that Vladimir Putin always lies. That's why I don't think that we need any kind of discussions. What will happen to your country? What will happen to Russia? And what needs to be done? Nobody knows what will happen and when. But I believe in democratic changes one day.

Everybody needs to do what they are able to do today. It's history. Democratic changes and some changes, any changes are happening in every country. So I just believe that Russia one day, probably it will take years, probably it will happen tomorrow, will become a democratic, normal country. Do you worry for your own safety and that of your children? Not really. I don't think I need to be afraid. Because when you start living in this feeling every day,

waking up and thinking that it's dangerous to do what I'm doing, then it makes a lot of restrictions in your life. I don't want to live in these conditions, you know. I want to end with something that your husband wrote about actually writing this book, because it properly made me laugh out loud, Julia, and it would be nice to end the interview on this note, I think. He quotes four reasons for writing Patriot.

Number one, I have something to say. Number two, my agents want me to do it. Number three, if they do finally whack me, the book will be my memorial. And number four, if they whack me, my family will get the advance and the royalties that I hope there will be. The book's author has been murdered by a villainous president. What more could the marketing department

ask for? Now, I mean, let's not laugh about the appalling, appalling fate that became your amazing husband. But I thought to have the ability to write that, knowing what he was facing, is quite extraordinary, isn't it? I would prefer he would be sitting here, not me, giving you the interview about this book. But he's just a remarkable man isn't he? To be able to see his life from the outside in, to see what fate might befall him, to understand what it would do to his family, but to still want to do something better in the world. He was great and he was very beloved.

Julia Navalnyer talking about her husband Alexei Navalny's book Patriot and I would put it in the hard recommend, Jane. I looked at it in a slightly daunted way, actually, when it first flopped through the letterbox. In fact, it's so big it had to be delivered, it wouldn't fit through the letterbox. And I did think, oh blimey, okay, here we go. But it is written in such an incredible style. I mean, he can really, really write. He is funny, he is self-deprecating. It's an extraordinary

book, a really, really extraordinary book. I hope it does bring about some sort of change. I mean, presumably it's not available in Russia. I wouldn't have thought it is. No, no. But it's well worth a read and it just sets in stone the need for change across that vast, vast country. But actually I felt more optimistic about that after I'd read it than I had done before. So get to it kids. Yes, that's your... I've read some of it too and it's well, well worth a look because of his wit and I was going to say that the somewhat British sense of humour which I

don't want that sounds like I'm being rather patronising and oh that's surprising. Sounds like you've claimed it. Which goes back to the colonial days. Yes, you see I can't help myself, I don't know. I don't know what's happened. Okay so that's it from us, Jane and Fee at Times.Radio, anything that you would like to contribute, our email inbox is always open. But let's just squeeze in one more complaint because it's been, we've had a couple of days of these.

This is from Belinda who's in Northern California. As one of your recent listeners signed off, they'll never take me alive and I do like that. I think that's my favourite sign off. She doesn't like the fact that we express some admiration for Anthony Scaramucci. I'm not expecting you to know all this, she says, since it's US political gossip, but just to say there's lots of these ex-Trumpers now cashing in on their recent proximity to the man, but who were clearly willing to take his cash when it was available to them. And I think that is a point, so let's just get it out there. Thank you very much, have a good couple of days.

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

Céline Dion. My dream to be an international star. Could it happen again? Could Celine Dion happen again? I'm Thomas LeBlanc and Celine Understood is a four-part series from CBC Podcasts and CBC News, where I pieced together the surprising circumstances that helped manufacture Celine Dion, the pop icon. Celine Understood. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com.