Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Penny-farthing watch (with Diana Bird)

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

It’s the final episode with Jane squared and they chat about the play Aspects of Love and bourbon balls. RAF Squadron Leader Diana Bird joins to speak about her new Channel 4 documentary called Evacuation - it's about the daring British airlift operation from Kabul.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @JaneandFiAssistant Producer: Elizabeth HighfieldTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So before we start on anything, can we have your live review of last night's musical extravaganza, please, Aspects of Love? She well remembered because I had forgotten. Aspects of Love. Well, I went to see Aspects of Love with a great old school friend of mine. And as I said yesterday, she is a fully paid up member of the Michael Ball Appreciation Society. And she's far from alone in that, I should say. And so she'd seen it in the afternoon and then she came again with me in the evening. And I actually asked her because I've always been interested in whether they up their game for the evening performance. Because I know they don't do a matinee every day.

But by God, that's a hard shift, isn't it? That's a proper working day, that. Tough on the pipes, I'd say. Two of those a day. I would imagine that, but also just the in and out of the costumes and the make-up and everything, just phenomenal. Make-up on and off, on and off.

Anyway, she said there were very similar and rather brilliant levels of energy at both performances. Gosh. And she should know, she saw them both. Absolutely. What I'll say about Aspects of of love and Michael Ball is gonna come on the program in a couple of weeks is that he is brilliant whatever it is he has it in

spades yeah he absolutely comes on stage and you are invested in him and there are a couple of people more than a couple I suppose but there aren't that many in the business of show who've got that quality he's also got a fantastic voice and i have to say it's in cracking nick so he did love changes i do love that one and it was entirely effortless, seemingly. So, yeah, I thought he was brilliant. In fact, the whole cast are brilliant. Costumes, great.

Choreography, superb. It's slick. It's beautifully designed. But the story is utter crap. I mean, I'm not the first person to have said it. Jane, have you seen Cats? I mean, musicals are not known for necessarily, you know, the book, the narrative. No, but I think this is based on a book that wasn't thought to be much good.

And it's, you can't, I mean, I like to see people performing. You know, I actually really like a musical. I'm not in any way snooty about them. I think they're great. And there's a lot to admire here. But the story is just really weird and actually doesn't translate terrifically well into the 21st century.

I do think that there is that thing about musicals that perhaps they can be a little bit anachronistic. I mean, My Fair Lady now just seems abusive. Yes. Well, there's a bizarre scene in Aspects of Love where a bloke attempts to shoot a woman. And then within about three minutes, the character played by Michael Ball believes the two of them should be together, takes himself out of the picture and allows the bloke who's just tried to shoot the woman and the woman to get off together yeah that seems like sort of violent cattle trading i don't i don't think you should

necessarily be forced to spend the rest of your days with someone who's just trying to kill you no it could be seen as coercive yeah i i'm not happy with the and also it starts with a bloke just turning up with a bouquet of flowers at a theatre and basically carting the leading actress away with him because he says he really loves her and she just thinks, oh, well, I've got a quiet weekend, I'll go off with him to his house in the country. Does that happen sometimes when you leave this building? Well, not as often as it should. And then also because it's a musical, there are bizarre lines like,

I'd love a cup of tea. Have you got one? Make one now. You know, which you wouldn't necessarily sing. Life isn't like that. I like a musical where you have dialogue and then a song and dance routine. There's a certain amount of warning burst into song. Yeah.

But it was all over the place in this. Should we start cancelling musicals? Shall we make a list? I don't know. I do think, I mean, I know the reviews have said, gosh, everyone's putting a shift in here. Superb work by everybody. Yeah.

But the story... But some people still say it's their favourite musical. I don't know I really don't What is your favourite musical? Blood Brothers Oh, is it? Yeah, which I have seen, I think, seven or eight times

And it's actually not on at the moment But I'm sure it will It will be somewhere Surely in a rat somewhere Yeah Tell Me It's Not True Which is the final song from Blood Brothers And also other great songs in Blood Brothers

So that, without question, is my favourite. So I've talked to, I've interviewed Willie Russell, actually, about educating Rita and mentioned Blood Brothers to him. He is the same, it's the same man, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. No, I'm a big fan. You didn't ask, but mine is Evita. What's yours?

You're right to point out. I'm playing your role. Yeah, no, I know. Yeah, and also playing Fee's role. And she's back on Monday. And we'll find out all about how she got on on the weakest link. And Fee's fitness bootcamp video.

Yeah, and her bootcamp video. So plenty to anticipate. Is the elephant in the room Hugh Edwards? I don't know. I suppose he is a bit, isn't he? Yeah. Should we quickly touch on it? Yes.

I mean, I think everyone's is a bit, isn't he? Should we quickly touch on that? Yes, well, I mean, I think everyone's got a view, haven't they? First of all, it's not for any of the rest of us to judge somebody else's inner turmoil. That much we all know. Absolutely. I have to say, things were reaching a ridiculous, near-fascical

level until the announcement last night. You did say, as we were leaving the studio yesterday, that it was a boil that probably needed to be lanced. Just in terms of the story. Yes. The story, you know, it was sort of reaching, as you say, ridiculous levels.

Everyone in the country knew who this person was and who the rumour was about. And then about 16 minutes later, that boil was lanced live on the Six O'Clock News. It was quite dramatic, wasn't it? Yes, it was quite dramatic. And I'm glad that it's been done for the sake of other people who were being completely wrongly associated with something. And also, the man clearly needs help and I very much hope he gets it.

And we are in an age where we're allowed to be a bit more open about mental health and about the incredible pressure that some people are under and some people put themselves under. I do think, I refuse to think of journalism as necessarily one of the most stressful professions, partly because I have enough connections in the real world to know that journalism isn't the toughest thing you can do for a living, by some margin.

And I know that having loads of money doesn't stop you from depression. No. I absolutely get that. But it's interesting that today's guest on the podcast is a woman who was playing a part in the evacuation of Kabul. So it's when you hear about things like that, which people like you, Edwards, would have reported on, they're properly putting themselves out there. And even the most accomplished news reporter is on the whole not, I know I'm not talking about war reporters here,

but on the whole not, I know I'm not talking about war reporters here, but on the whole not risking their life. No. But I suppose I've just got that in my head that, you know, we have this particular guest in this podcast. No, absolutely. And I will say that I think, you know, Huw Edwards has talked previously about his depression and about his mental health challenges.

And it's awful to think of anyone, you know, going through what seemingly is, you know, currently a very severe mental health crisis. And, you know, that is the worst kind of time to deal with any kind of, you know, public issue. And I do think it was good of his wife and right of his wife to say, right now, you know, they're not making any statements. They're not going to talk about this. The most important

thing is that he gets better. And I think, you know, I think that's absolutely right. I think anyone facing any crisis in their personal life, and this is a difficult thing, I think, for people in our business, anyone facing anything difficult in their personal life, the last thing you want to do is talk to the press. you know that is something if you are the press even if you are the press yeah um yes it's um god i mean we've had a whole week of in a way journalism gazing at its own navel yeah i'm quite bored of that disappearing of its own yeah you know what so anyway um thank you for the people who have emailed about it um and I know some people are saying that they're slightly conflicted, and I get that.

I probably don't think we should read them out just because it just feels to me like it's just not quite fair. And we don't have all the information. We only have a very small fraction of the information, and I think it would be dangerous to pontificate on the tiny amount that we know. I do think as well, people have actually said to me, well, he seemed all right when he was doing the news and doing that you think yeah but um most of us uh whatever you do for a living we have a game face that we put on at work and every job is a

kind of performance i mean i think it teaches for example absolutely um it's got to be hasn't it yeah yeah as the daughter of two teachers i know they definitely put their game face on. They were absolutely horrible when they got home. They weren't mum and dad. My mum's been listening the last few days so I need to be nice. Coming soon, Jane's misery memoir. What will you call it? Oh gosh, what would I call it? I know what I'd call mine because my mum was always very fastidious with sweets and she'd never let me have a full bag of Revels.

So I'll call my misery memoir, I never had a full bag of Revels. Mine would probably be called Play On because my dad, as a sports coach, had no sympathy whatsoever when I broke fingers or there's a famous story of him dragging me through some cut cornfields when I was three and had little short wellies on and cut all my legs. But he just refused to notice. Or it would also be called it's a walk not a carry it's a walk not

a carry which was a motto because you like to pick up did you when you're up for a walk yeah okay well it is a bit nicer than walking not a carry yeah okay well there's two possible titles there uh I'm sure there are many publishers listening who think I would very much like to hear more about these women's childhoods. Please send us the advance and we'll get to work. Please, please. Right, what have you got? So, dear Jane and Fee and Jane, I've often considered writing to you in response to many of your meaningful and serious topics, only to wimp out. However, I've finally had the

confidence to contribute to the hard-hitting topic of penny farthing excellent so um louise i don't think she'll mind me using her name she says she used to work in a lovely country pub in deepest dorset um in chapwick which sits on a popular cycling route and she says she regularly saw groups of lycra clad middle-aged men whizzing past in groups i believe they're called mammals, she says. However, there was also a chap who often sauntered past on his penny farthing. What's more, it had a metal pig with wings on the side of it. Oh, but well, of course it did.

Obviously, which meant that from time to time within the pub, all I saw was through the small cottagey windows was a pig flying past from time to time. I hope this is a useful contribution to hashtag Penny Farthing Watch. Keep up the good work. Now, I just want to say, Louise, you did work in a pub. Are you entirely sure about the pig aspect of this? Yeah, I mean, what buys you? What was it you said you had first thing this morning? A bourbon ball. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is? Well, not advisable at 11am on a Thursday on an empty stomach. I've got weak will. Yeah, just work on yourself. Yeah. There's another Penny Farthing sighting here. Who knew this would be such fertile territory?

This is Paula. Hello, Paula. My daughter and I were wandering through London's Hyde Park on Friday on our way to see Billy Joel. I'm actually very envious of that. I don't think I knew he was on. If I'd known, I'd have made an effort because apparently it was brilliant

and it's only when you read a review you realise how many fabulous songs that bloke's got. And apparently he just does his bangers. Oh yeah, he's not shy. He's just giving the people what they want. Yeah, but I think that's great. Anyway, on our way to see Billy Joel and we were absolutely overcome with way to see Billy Joel,

and we were absolutely overcome with excitement to see a penny farthing coming towards us. This in itself would not have been email worthy, were it not for the fact it was written by a female, and I heard you saying that you weren't sure if women did indeed ride them. Keep up the good work, says Paula. Paula, you keep up your good work too. Yes.

Thank you very much for that. Yeah, very good spot. If there's a Lady Penny Farthing Association out there, perhaps you'd like to get in touch. The Lady Penny Farthing Club of Great Britain probably does exist. For sure. This is quite an interesting one from a listener who says, I enjoyed your interview with the author Catherine Faulkner.

It's reassuring that we as mothers all go through the same at the school gates and a tiny bit depressing at the same time that we're still making Tudor houses for our kids. In my kids primary school years I set up a Facebook group called Swap, Share, Borrow specifically to share resources for the book days, dressing up days, school projects etc. The main rule is that no money changes hands. What started off as a group of about 20 mums at our school has now grown into a group of over a thousand members and I'm really proud. You should be. Also on a note of the Catherine Faulkner interview and our discussion thereof yesterday,

this listener Diane says she loved the conversation and that we articulated her thoughts about the various friendship groups you make through your children and she agrees with the idea of them being colleagues on the front line of whatever stage of childhood we're facing together she says you'll be close to some you'll tolerate others and some will drift away as you no longer are in the same place at the same time but a few will remain friends for longer as you develop a real bond she says this has been a really helpful realignment and has helped with some of the fears i had about cliques at the school gates when someone is about to have a baby and ask me for my advice i offer this and also the pearl shared with

me by a former actual colleague be interchangeable with your co-parent she says my kids are now 10 and 12 and those nuggets have had the biggest positive impact on my parental sanity and my well-being. Excellent. Wise words. I don't know why I said excellent in that funny way. That does sound really good advice. Be interchangeable with your partner. I think she means, you know, don't...

Don't do any more. Do the same. Well, also, you know, if you can go to the mother's meeting, even though you're a dad. So they can. Yeah. Of course, it could be two chaps or two ladies. Yes. But that's probably very sound advice. I have found the email I wanted to find

about Aspects of Love. It's from a listener in Brisbane. As a young Aussie working in London through the 70s, I loved being able to go to all the fabulous musical theatre. So my first trip back to London in December 1989, friends arranged for me to see two new musicals, Miss Saigon and Aspects of Love. I'd been out for a very long lunch,

a very long lunch in London with former colleagues and had to race to get to the theatre before Aspects started. That's a very long lunch. Good work. I mean, it's half seven, so you started lunch away anyway. Are you a journalist? Well, I could easily work in this building. My male companion was much displeased with my lateness and my rather relaxed behaviour.

We took our seats, the lights went out, and Michael Ball stepped on stage to sing Love Changes Everything, at which point I burst into tears and cried throughout the entire play, reaching a crescendo of sobbing by the end. Since then, it has always been my favourite bit of musical theatre. That's from a listener called Madonna in Brisbane.

And Madonna says that she can't wait to hear the interview with Sir Michael of Ball. Me neither. I haven't got a date for it yet, actually. I think it's going to be next week or the week after. Excellent. So it's going to be very exciting. I wonder, actually, I think it's going to be next week or the week after. Excellent. So it's going to be very exciting. I wonder, actually, just talking about audiences,

whether your friend noticed there was any difference in the demographic between the matinee and the evening performance. Because as someone who used to be a freelance journalist and sometimes had to go to matinees for work, I would say in my experience, it's quite a different demographic in the afternoon. I hear what you're saying and I think a lot of people have popped up from St Albans

which is something that sounds like a euphemism and it isn't. It's that you do get, I know what my colleague here is hinting at, you do get slightly older folk coming up to town for the matinee. But then I can see that point, you're back home for your tea.

Exactly. You don't have to worry about the dark. Or an early bed special just after. Yeah, that's very important. Absolutely. Yeah. This is a message that, I don't think we've talked about this topic this week

since I've been sitting in, but I've heard you and Fi talk about it many times, about people who've been to stands. Oh, yes. Yeah. I like this, yeah. So this is from Louisa. Hello, Louisa.

She has also been tempted to write in many times. She's grappled with the daily ups and downs of life. But now she's finally emailed because she's been to a stand, Kyrgyzstan, which is south of Kazakhstan, in case that's helpful. And also sounds quite similar. And I'm quite glad I managed to get those both out. I'm not going to say them again. Oh, damn. Because I think I did well once and I don't want to risk it. She says it's not somewhere she thought she was going to visit in July 2022

but post-pandemic keen to go anywhere she signed up for a 10-day botanical tour to this amazing country which she says is mainly glacial mountains and valleys. It sounds amazing. She says it supports an enormous array of plants which thrive in really diverse habitats and weather extremes. So it goes down to minus 45 in winter and highs of 30 in summer. So many of what we consider garden plants just grow here in the wild. She says it's a really interesting country because of its... I could say the country, but I can't say complex. As a former BBC newsreader, I'm here to tell you it's those little words that trip you up.

Complex history. And there was a definite evidence, she says, of its Soviet past. Russian is still spoken by many in the capital, Bishkek. She said she'd forgotten the thrill of travelling, albeit with expert guides, and the joy of learning about other cultures through human contact, which one just doesn't get from a Mediterranean villa holiday or an Instagram post. if you can bear it in the heat if you are in one of those heat waves either across Europe or I think America is really going to get it next week it would be really interesting just to get your take on the challenge of daily life because it does sound from our perspective here in cloudy quite wet Britain but actually I'm not complaining because it's bliss relatively speaking oh gosh

yeah I mean when you have to go on the Victoria Line, when it's anything above about 28 outside, we struggle. Well, as you know, I go home in a horse and carriage and the staff do struggle in the heat. I'm getting a penny farthing for when the weather cheers up. Yeah, well, I'll pay money to see that. They're great for people who are five foot four. Well, don't boast about your height, please.

It's a sore subject here. Jane and Fi at Times.Radio, so get your emails in for Fi when she gets back on Monday. Our guest today, it's so worth hearing this point of view from somebody who was there for the British airlift from Kabul in the August of 2021 as the Taliban took Afghanistan again. This is part of a three-part Channel 4 documentary series called Evacuation. If you haven't seen it, I know I've banged on about it, but it's just brilliant.

It's on all four now. And these three documentaries really do show the real raw courage and the honesty of the British service people who had to do a pretty much impossible job. And one of the most interesting of the contributors is Diana Bird, an RAF squadron leader, and whose actual role is aviation security expert. And she told me what it was like getting the call about a potential trip to Kabul. It's a hypothetical, very hypothetical conversation. In June, sort of middle of June, we were actually... 2021. 2021. Roedden ni'n gwylio'r adnoddau.

Roedden ni'n gwybod bod rhywbeth yn dod. Ac os oedd yr airforce yn cael ei ddefnyddio, roedden ni'n gwybod y byddwn ni'n mynd oherwydd dyna'n ein swydd. Ac mewn gwirionedd, roedd gen i grŵp newydd o staff sydd wedi dod o'r ysgol poli yn y RhF, yng Nghymru. Ac roeddem ni wedi penderfynu bod hi'n debyg i fod i roi ymddygiad i'w gael ychydig mwy o ymarfer o fod yn anodd ac yn byw allan o'r bag. Felly roedden ni'n eu cymryd i ardal hyfforddi bach a'u rhoi mewn llyfr a'u gofyn i'w ffwrddu a chyfarfod y dydd i mewn, yn ymlaen â'u ddweud, mae gennym rhai gwaith dechrauol i sefydlu ar gael ar gael ar gael. Byddai'n dda i'w gynnwys gyda ni a gweld

os gallwn ni gofio sut i'w gosod gyda'i gilydd. Roedd yn ystod hynny roeddwn i'n cael y cwbl ffôn yn dweud, yn amlwg, for setting up an airport, we should probably bring that with us and see if we can, you know, remember how to put it together. And it was while we were doing that that I got the phone call saying, hypothetically speaking, if you were to go to an unknown location to pick up an unknown number of people with an unknown threat, unknown period of time, how many people do you want? And, of course, the answer to that is unknown. Yeah, but you did know what they were referring to. We did, and so we have some standing things. So we have a standing commitment to support hurricane relief and natural disasters.

But it's not hurricane season in the middle of June. So, yeah, we had a pretty good idea. And it was that that I planned to. And by this time, you'd had quite a bit of experience. What is your mindset when you get a phone call like that? Is there excitement, anticipation? What is it? If I'm being really honest I didn't expect to go myself so for what the initial sort of foreign office plan was there was no requirement for me. There was a requirement to send my troops and so it was a bit like okay what do I need to do to get

to get the troops ready to go but it very very quickly became obvious that we probably needed beth dwi angen i'w wneud i gael y troiadau yn barod i fynd. Ond fe ddodd yn gyflym iawn yn gyflym bod yn amlwg bod angen i ni wneud cynllun cymdeithasol am y peth peth a'r peth peth fydd angen pobl â llawer o brofiad. Rwyf wedi mynd i Afghanistan yn ôl, rwyf wedi mynd i Iraq. Fe wnes i adael fy niddiadau sylfaenol a mynd yn syth i'r Iwerddon Cymru. Felly, rwyf wedi gwneud hyn yn amser hir. Ac roedd fy bost yn dweud, rydym am eich anfon chi a rydym am eich anfon chi fel rhan o'r rhan cynnyrch. You know, I've been doing this a long time and my sort of boss was like, we want to send you and we want to send you as part of that advance party. So that just in case you can advise the Foreign Office on how to do it anyway on the civilian side, if that's what we end up doing.

But actually, can you go and just make sure we know what we're doing? One of the most poignant moments in evacuation, actually, is when you say that you felt at times like you were taking, I think you said a six-form field trip to Kabul. And I have to say it really struck me because some of the lads, they were lads, I'm not being patronising. We are talking about, we're talking about 19-year-olds, aren't we? Yeah, 19, 20-year-olds. I think one of the challenges that this country has, because we don't have conscription or anything, is most most of the public all they know about war is what they see on the tv and of course on tv and films on yeah etc soldiers are old they're in their 30s or in their 40s or even in their 50s i mean by military standards i'm ancient i mean i really am decrepit and how old are you i'm 43 but i really am you know people have short careers

and actually wars are fought by 19 20 21 year olds and the average age of my team out there was 23 which it's about right actually but as as the boss as their commander as their squadron commander it's a huge responsibility because they are 20-year-olds and they do think they know everything. And they did sit there before we left like this, going, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK. As I sort of told them, they'd need to take a roll mat and probably, you know, they wouldn't have a bed and they need to take some rations with them. And they're like, yeah, all right, well, yeah, we know. We've been there before. But they hadn't. But they hadn't. And that's my job is to ensure that they do take their roll mats and just leave them back and, you know, everything that they actually need

instead of what they think they need. What is your, you say you have a definite duty towards them, it's not maternal exactly or paternal, but it's a dedication to them? What is it? Yeah, it's a huge commitment to them. So it isn't maternal or paternal, they're employees at the end of the day but it's actually it's something slightly different so it's it's a very very tight bond that is forged through adversity which means that I saw one of them last week came down to have a chat because things weren't going

great I was speaking to another one on the phone last night you know you you have that bond and you feel responsible for them and you can't switch that off because ultimately we put them in those a'r ffôn y nos diwethaf, rydych chi'n cael y rhwydwaith hwnnw ac rydych chi'n teimlo'n gyfrifol amdano ac ni allwch chi newid hynny oherwydd yn y pen draw rydym yn eu rhoi nhw mewn y sefyllfaoedd hynny ac felly mae'n ein swydd i edrych arnynt. Felly y bobl ifanc sydd wedi sefyll yn ôl a chyflwyno eu llyfrau pan oeddech chi'n eu cyflwyno'r adroddiadau, beth maen nhw fel nawr yn ymlaen? Wel yn gyntaf, maen nhw wedi broadly speaking well they first of all they've grown up and yeah men and women um it was a 50 50 split that we took um and and they grew up very very quickly um you do i did yeah you that first time some somebody's trying to kill you is is quite grounding and does does make you do that um they're okay generally most of them are absolutely fine. Some of them better than others, but the best support there is for them is each other. And they are, as a group, when we showed the documentary to them two weeks before it was broadcast,

you could see how close they still are. And they sort of, you know, there's almost this sort of unspoken bond between them. And they really do look after each other. And for those that need a bit of extra help, again, the Air Force is set up for that almost this sort of unspoken bond between them and they really do look after each other and for those that need a bit of extra help again the air force is set up for that and is really good at dealing with it so let's get back then sorry diana to the mission itself you you get to carbel and your aim was to do what exactly so initially the aim was just to understand the situation on the ground so we were getting two very different sets of reports sort of one and the formal sort of i ddeall y sefyllfa ar y tŷ. Felly roedden ni'n cael dau set o adroddiadau gwahanol,

un o'r ffordd o ddealltwriaeth fforddol o'r tŷ ac yna'r eraill, yr hyn rydyn ni'n ei weld ar y TV. Felly roedd yn iawn, roedden ni'n gwybod bod llawer o bobl sy'n gweithio ar yr airport, mae llawer o'r contractwyr yno oedd yn Cymru, rhai ohonynt yn Cymru, felly mae'n ymwneud â chyfweliad a siarad â nhw ac mewn gwirionedd deall a edrych ar y sefyllfa. Yn ôl, wrth gweithio gyda'r rf police so it's about sitting and talking to them and actually understanding and and looking at the situation again having having worked with the afghan security forces myself i kind of understood what when we talked to them what what they were really saying and there was a really good indicator that things weren't going quite as as was being afforded well that's a can i say

that's a very military way of putting it i mean mean, basically, the Taliban were proceeding at pace to take the country again. Yeah, they were. And basically, we got it wrong. We'd miscalculated. Yeah, we had. But it was blindingly obvious on the ground that we had, although there was a huge amount of denial in Kabul itself. So in Kabul itself, with one hand,

the people we were talking to who worked at the airport, et cetera, saying, no, no, the Taliban, they've done a deal. They're not going to enter the city. There's going to be an order transition over a period of time. roeddem yn siarad â chi sy'n gweithio ar yr aeroport, ac yn dweud, nid, nid, nid, mae'r Talibannau wedi gwneud y ffordd, nid ydyn nhw'n mynd i fynd i'r ddyniaeth, bydd yna'n mynd i fod yn cyfnod o ran y cyfnod dros amser, bydd yn wahanol, nid yw hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd, ond ar yr un pryd, fel y gwnaeth i edrych ar draws y ddyniaeth Kabul, oherwydd mae'r ffordd yw'r bwll o ddynion, sy'n cael ei gweld drwy'r ffermau, neu gallwch weld yr holl ffermau bach yma, gan fod pob un o'r adeiladau Llywodraeth yn

weddill eu recordau. Wel, nid yw'r ddau hynny'n cymryd or you can see all these tiny little fires as all of the government buildings burn their records. Well, those two things don't add up. And actually, actions speak much louder than words. So if they're burning their records, then they're not staying, they're not standing. And how many people did you think you were going to have to try to evacuate? So we were told that they didn't really know, but somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000. And who are these people or were these people? So predominantly British passport holders, and actually the majority that we evacuated were British passport holders. Predominantly British passport holders, but also Afghan national, certain members of the Afghan National Security Forces,

and then our interpreters, the ones that we really cared about the most. Those that had worked with us for 20 years in sort of Helmand and my case, Kandahar. And how many people in the end were you able to bring out? Just over 15,000. So three times as many? Yeah, five times three. And we'd have got it right. Yeah. Wow. OK. That really should concentrate the mind. So you arrive. The scene, you've described it already

approaching a certain amount of chaos, denial. Did you tell the people back in Britain that there was frankly a diabolical situation on the ground? Well, there was still calm at this point. So it was actually still very, very calm on the ground. There wasn't any panic at this point, and that came later. But there is a formal change, so we had a joint task force headquarters there who were doing their bit, the formal bit, but I was absolutely speaking to my deputies, the junior officers that were going to come out with the troops, and my headquarters, and saying,

if it's that worst-case scenario, that's what I'm going to need, and make sure that they're ready. Make sure, essentially, I yw'r canlyniad o'r gorau, dyna beth fyddwn i'n mynd i'w hangen, a gwneud yn siŵr bod nhw'n barod. Gwneud yn siŵr, yn y bôn, rwy'n credu, un o'r sgyrsiau oedd yn llythyr, gwneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw'n dod â'u llawr mewn eu llawr llawr. Felly, pa dydd oedd y ffordd yw'r proferbiaidd wedi cymryd y fan? Felly, fe ddigwyddodd dros y nos. Roedd yn dda iawn ac dros y nos, fe gawson nhw'r Amgueddfa Brydeinig yn llwyr yn ystod ei llawr, fel oedd yr Amgueddfa it was very calm and it there and overnight the British embassy closed in utmost secrecy as did the American embassy and we sort of did that great got those away and then the next morning Kabul woke to the news that the president was going to make a speech but he was actually he made a speech that said he was going to make a speech the next day okay so okay right well that

tells you quite a lot doesn't it um he never made that speech because he'd already fled fe wnaeth y sbith a dweud ei bod yn mynd i wneud y sbith y dydd nesaf. Iawn. Iawn, iawn, wel mae hynny'n digwydd i chi eithaf llawer, does dim? Roedd hi ddim wedi gwneud y sbith honno oherwydd roedd hi wedi arwain. Ac ar hyn o bryd roedd y Taliban ar y gart, ond yn dweud eu bod yn mynd i'w ddod, yn dweud eu bod nhw ddim yn mynd i fynd i fynd i'r ddyniaeth. Wrth gwrs, nid yw'r Taliban yn armei fel ein armei, mae llawer o grwpiau bach a llawer o grwpiau bach sy'n ceisio'u gynrychioli ac nid hynny'n gweithio ac fe wnaethon nhw fynd i'r ddyniaeth. Ac ar y cyfnod y gwnaeth pobl sy'n sylweddoli bod yr Embasiad Cymreig a'r and lots of little control groups that you're trying to control, and that didn't work, and they did enter the city. And the moment people realised that the British Embassy and the American Embassy had closed, all the other embassies closed.

And at that point, all bets were off. Luckily, that coincided with the same day that our troops all arrived and the paras arrived, so fortuitously, those two things happened on the same day. I've been talking to RAF squadron leader Diana Bird, one of the British service people involved in the attempt to get British passport holders out of Kabul as the Taliban took Afghanistan. Now anyone who had a British passport was quite simply told get yourself to the barren hotel but far far too many people turned up. The roads of Kabul were completely

clogged and everywhere you looked, there was total chaos. Situations, I mean, we talk about the Brits being leaders of the world type thing and people following what the Brits do. And I sort of half believed it. I saw it in action in Kabul. So first of all, on the air station, on the base itself, there was absolute chaos. There was lots of people, lots of contracts, etc. collapsed in and needed to be flown out. ar y sefydliad ei hun, roedd caos yn gwbl, mae llawer o bobl, llawer o gontractau,

aeth yn llwyddo ac roedd angen i mi ffynnu allan. Fe wnes i ddod i'r Colonel America a'r Colonel Terc a dweud, Beth ydym yn mynd i'w wneud? Ac yn sicr, roedd yr American yn dweud, Nid yw fy nghyd-dau i, rwy'n llwyddo'r American, nid yw fy problem. Ac roedd y Terc yn dweud, Nid wyf yn gwybod beth fyddwch chi'n mynd i'w wneud. Ac roedd hynny'n digwydd ar y sefydliad, ac roedden ni' ni'n cymryd nifer o'r rolau arweinyddol ar y bas, y rheolaethau cyd-drein, ac at y baron hotel, oedd pobl eraill yn dechrau dod i fyny a dweud, felly mae gennych chi bwriad, allwn ni eich cymryd yn ôl? Felly, yr hyn a wnaethoch chi ei ddatblygu yw,

nid oedd dim ond y Brwydraethau yn mynd drwy'r baron, ond roedden ni'n darparu'r sicrwydd a'r pwerau We provided the security and the Paris did an incredible job of keeping that safe to allow an awful lot of nations, in fact nearly every other nation apart from the Americans, to do their the British Army's interpreters, and I get why you're so passionate about helping them and their families, the others, I mean, there's a reference in evacuation to people who actually had popped to Kabul for a wedding. Yeah, we saw that a lot. So I was amazed. There were contractors, so the whole of Afghanistan, really the infrastructure was run by Western contractors as part of the NATO mission.

And they had all stayed and were all adamant they were going to stay, gweithwyr dynol fel rhan o'r fath o'r misiwn NATO ac yn sydyn, ac roedden nhw i gyd wedi aros ac roedden nhw i gyd wedi bod yn dymunol, ond ar y cyfnod y byddai'r embesiaid wedi mynd ac yn y taliban wedi mynd yna, yn eithaf gywir, gwnaethon nhw ddysgu bod amser i ffwrdd. Mewn gwirionedd, roedden nhw'n cael eu cymryd i fynd. Felly roedden ni'n cael gofynion o'r disgrifiadau hynny. Roedden ni hefyd wedi cael llawer o bobl, oherwydd mai roedd yn y we also had an awful lot of people because it was the summer holiday going to visit family so I was amazed at the number of family groups who had popped back for a wedding gone over for two weeks in their annual summer two-week holiday um he had not listened to the embassy advice of do not travel and I think if there's one thing that I've learned from all of this it's if the embassy says don't go somewhere don't go yeah so I'm actually amazed by how equitable and reasonable

you are about that it would have driven me I think to distraction if I'd known that people had deliberately put themselves in that position yeah but the British passport holders at the end of the day and they needed help and that's what we're there to do. We're just very lucky to be British and to have a government that will come and pick us up because not every government did. So the decision making that you had to do and that some of these very young people had to do as well, there's a point in evacuation where somebody says that effectively British foreign policy, where somebody says that effectively British foreign policy, with all its complications and nuance,

actually drilled down to a teenage soldier making a decision in a split second about whether or not somebody was allowed to get on a plane. It was incredibly challenging. We had a slightly different situation inside the airport. So initially everybody was coming straight to us because it's at the Baron Hotel, a bit of time to set up. So we were dealing with all of those people. And yeah, it was pretty full on for sort of three or four days.

Then the numbers cut down to a trickle really. So you're looking at probably making 20 to 30 days decisions a day instead of two to 300. But it's still really challenging. And I was very conscious that you shouldn't put those those decisions onto a 19 year old so we put in place a system of evaluation essentially where if from a technical perspective you weren't confident to make a decision or just morally you couldn't you escalated. And I had an incredible sergeant major from the Royal Logistics Corps with me as well.

And between the two of us, we made those decisions instead of the troops. And I know that there are some of those decisions that you had to make that you still think about. A lot of them, yeah. Can you talk about just some of the examples? What about the, I think there were four young women who came to you, weren't there?

So it was actually quite a big group of women um yeah so the movers sorry so one soldier came and found me and and sort of said mum we need you to come down to the gate and there was a crash gate just by where we'd sort of set up our essentially our own passenger terminal and um it had a load of people outside it and they were a group of very well educated women very well educated and um you know fluent English quite young and they were all single and they had letters from the Taliban that basically said we we know who you are. We know you're single and we're going to come get you. And sort of stand by, essentially. And they were desperate for help. But, first of all, they were on the wrong side of the gate.

If they'd been on the other side of the gate, I don't, well, the UK still wouldn't have helped them. They weren't eligible to come to the UK. But we had sort of a lot of agreements. I understood what other nations could offer could offer and it and we sort of did do a bit of like oh well I can't help you but but this nation may be able to but they're on the wrong side of the gate and unfortunately if we'd opened that gate we risked the airfield getting overrun again and if the airfield got overrun again we'd have lost one two days of the evacuation, which was 8,000, 9,000 people not evacuated per day from across all of the different nations.

So you have to make those very difficult decisions about do you save the many or do you save the few? And in that particular case, I decided that the many had to win. How did those within react? They were distraught and and completely understandably and um were obviously begging me for help um you know asking me how as a human being i could do that as a woman how could i do that and so on and so forth actually this is really helpful yeah your uniform protects you from it being you it's not me me making that decision. It's me as a representative.

It's the representative of His Majesty's government making that decision. And that really helps. And it is sort of like a barrier and it does protect you. But it still hurts. Anybody who watched a news bulletin during that period of time in the August of 2021 will be familiar with the chaos at the airport, with those images of people standing in the sewer for example with babies being handed over to to troops and just people utterly utterly

desperate and then there was a terrorist attack yes that must have been just diabolical so it was expected and we'd been there'd been intelligence for a number of days that something was coming um it's a very porous camp they were finding a lot of people who'd broken onto camp as well so it was expected but that doesn't make it any easier again i mean the paris did just such an incredible job and and how they did that how the medics did what they did as well was absolutely incredible for us the main focus of that was was injured people who were y gwnaeth y meddygau wneud yr hyn y gwnaethant hefyd oedd yn awr iawn. I ni, o'r ffocws pwysig oedd pobl sy'n cael eu llwyddo. Roedd gen i rhai meddygau tîm sy'n ymwneud â gweithwyr gwasanaethau gwasanaethol sydd wedi gwneud mwy o hyfforddiant meddygol ac

rhai ohonynt wedi diogelu bywydau y dydd, neu wedi ymdrech i diogelu bywydau y dydd. Ond ie, mae'n ddigon haws ond yn anffodus, mae'n digwydd ac roedd yn gallu ein bod ni'n gallu sicrhau bod lives that day but um and yeah you know it's yes it's not easy but unfortunately it happened and all we could do was make sure that our people that we had you know our passengers were safe and that we protected them and the troops knew it was serious when i went and got my rifle because i normally just had a pistol suddenly i turned up with a rifle and they're like oh okay she means it yeah this is yeah we're getting to that point, aren't we? But again, because we had been attacked sort of pretty on and off throughout the two weeks, so it was another attack.

Unfortunately, it was, yeah, a very, very lethal one. And who helps you and the people that you were with to put this afterwards into some kind of context and to get on with the rest of your lives? That's a challenging one isn't it so um again our troops are really resilient um slightly different as the boss because you you step back from your troops like you know they don't need to see you know me having deeper meaningfuls that's that's not how it works so i've i've had help from a number of sources uh so i have a ptsd ptsd stone that comes up in in the third episode yeah i also have a

moral injury uh which is essentially where you do things that go so against your moral code that it starts it undermines who you are as a person basically so um the padre system which are chaplains multi you know multi-faith chaplains um are are responsible for looking at that and and i've been supported through that and will continue to be supported through that by by the chaplaincy uh the ptsd the the much we're really used to you know 20 years of war on terror has made them very good at dealing with it and we have our own community mental health teams and um i'm still again receiving sort of treatment through the community mental health teams. And my colleagues and my bosses have been absolutely fantastic. And in fact, in the first instance, just telling me you're not OK and you need some help, but then supporting me through that.

And then actually the RAF Benevolent Fund, which is a charity, has also provided some counselling for the moral injury as well. So it's not a one-person solution, there's lots and lots of different avenues and to be honest I've been really humbled by how many people have wanted to just put an arm around me and make sure I'm okay and support me through all this. Well I don't think anyone can watch these programmes or listen to you speak and not feel that way and of as you say, it's not just you who features in the documentaries. There's nurses, doctors, paras. There's the padre who I was really struck by as well, as you mentioned.

I mean, all of you. It actually humbles those of us who've never been in the forces and have never had to make these incredible decisions in a nanosecond. Do you take some comfort from knowing that most of us lack the courage genuinely lack any of the courage that be required to be in that situation that you were in I don't think people do actually I think you'd be amazed what you can do and you have to and every single day I was there well certainly after about day two or three it was like I can't you know I used to have a little walk for about 20 minutes up to thelch ystod 6 o'r wythnos,

a 7 o'r wythnos i gael cyfnod. Roeddwn i'n gallu ddim gwneud hynny. Roeddwn i'n cael fy nghymryd ymlaen, doedd dim llif, roeddwn i'n cael fy nghymryd. Yn ôl, yn y bore ddynol, roeddwn i'n cael cyfnod arall. Roeddwn i'n gallu gwneud hynny, ond roeddwn i'n gallu gwneud hynny, ond roeddwn i'n gallu gwneud hynny, ond mae'r datau diwedd ar ei gilydd. Rwy'n credu y gallwch chi wneud hynny. part that you can do it but just sort of suck it up and there's an end date on it and and i think

actually you know you can do it people just don't realize they can do it that was raf squadron leader diana bird just talking there about everything she'd been through and not just her uh in that incredible attempt to get those british passport holders out of afghanistan i have to say the bit bit in the program where i I think it was Diana herself actually, who just said that some of the people they were rescuing had popped to Afghanistan for a holiday. Oh, I mean, I have to say, I will second... For a wedding. For a wedding. And yeah, you just think, why? When the country is falling. But I will second everything you said about the documentary. It's absolutely phenomenal. And there's so much in it that you just think god what

a mess um i mean diana in your interview mentioned the single women who were trying to get out of that country and i also one of the things that struck me was one of the male army personnel talking about the mother with the four children one of whom was undocumented and they had to get her to leave the queue, take this child back to its parents and come back. And they don't know if she ever made it back with her own three children, but they couldn't enable what might be seen as child trafficking. I just think, as she said, the decisions that 19 year old soldiers were being expected to make in those circumstances, just horrifying and heartbreaking.

And in hardly any time. In hardly any time. They had to sort of make eye contact with someone and think, oh, God. Yeah, the family who were featured got out just because they'd seen one of the soldiers smoking and went over, waved their passport, you know, got out. He said, off you go. It's the chaos.

That's what comes through is just the chaos. It's very frightening, actually, as I think about it. I'm shivering a bit because it's just one of those things where you think, well, what would I do? And we are just fortunate people who assume, perhaps we're naive, that these sorts of challenges will never face us. I suppose you just don't know. But it's so, so worth your time. Evacuation on all four. Jane, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Well, you're

wearing another of your lovely dresses today what's it which one is this this is from Kate Hudson's very short-lived fashion brand oh yeah the actress the actress yeah it's made out of recycled plastic bottles which makes it sound very sweaty but I'd like to say it's not sweaty at all that might be the nicest thing you've ever said it's. It's teal and mustard. Which also, I mean, it sort of looks a little bit like I'm wearing my granny's curtains. But, you know, make it fashion. Yeah, I think your granny must have had lovely curtains.

No, thank you very much. Have a lovely weekend. Thank you, and you? Will you be getting up to any of your traditional fast living? I'm going to Amsterdam. You see, I thought so. I knew it. Right, just be as sensible as you can. Yes, yes, Jane. You see, I thought so. Yeah. I knew it. Right. Just be

as sensible as you can. Yes. Yes, Jane. Have you got it? Yes, Jane. No vaping. Right. Fees back on Monday. Have a lovely weekend. Thank you for listening. The email address is jadenfee at times.radio. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy and you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our Instagram

account just go onto Insta and search for Jane and Fee and give us a follow so in other words we're everywhere aren't we Jane thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon