Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Phwoar, Peter the Great? I should say so! (with Philippa Perry)

Episode Date: May 19, 2026

Welcome to Tuesday's episode of the podcast - it's been carefully considered at every level. Jane and Fi also thoughtfully consider garden gnomes, domesticated foxes, goose chases, and royal wig swaps. Plus, psychotherapist and writer Philippa Perry discusses her new book ‘Shrink Solves Murder’. Recommendations in today's podcast: 'The Things We Never Say' by Elizabeth Strout and the TV show Amandaland Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Crashing around. Welcome to Tuesday's edition of Off Air with Jane Fee. I've got my minty, clean breath thing, you my jiggy watsits. And I'm a week out from the dentist. Do you get to that stage where you just think, I just want to be super careful about my mouth hygiene? I actively like my dentist so much, and I had to book a check-in.

And I'm genuinely looking forward to it. Get to that age where you realise that there are some people know you can depend on in life. And it's good to have the dentist in that. Yes, absolutely. But these ones are quite funny. They're the little clean breath peppermint things, and they guarantee to last two hours.

And I wonder whether if you eat two of them, they last four. Well, that would have been based on science. They're bound to, aren't they? Yeah. I did that embarrassing thing where I bumped into a neighbour of mine at London Bridge Station today. It's always so bizarre. You know, we'd bump out into people out of...

You shouldn't bump out. bump in especially not at the station bump into people but in the wrong environment and then you can't always remember their name yes exactly that but I'd just taken on board

a minty thing and I was so surprised to see him as I said hello it fell out lovely but you kept your dignity well I think he's just a very polite gentleman so he didn't draw attention to it we both pretended

hello what's fallen out of your mouth not the easiest conversation starter is it? No, it's not. Right, lots of stuff are coming in from a Chelsea Flower Show. Have you seen, lots of celebrities. They obviously have a little timetable of celebrity

visits to the Chelsea Flower Show. Oh God, it's very much so. Yeah, I think it was Division 1 were going out yesterday, but they all had to be photographed holding a garden gnome. I don't know what that was all about, really. Well, it's because for the first time ever, Chelsea has always had a ban on garden nose. Oh, has it? It has, right.

And it very much, it says something about the Chelsea Flash show, doesn't it? But they have relaxed that rule this year and I think it's to do with a charity garden, isn't it? But, you know, of course they're getting an awful lot of publicity with... Name some Ailer celebrities who've been holding gnomes. Alan Titchmarsh, Mary Berry. Well, Alan Tichmarsh, he must have handled some gnomes in his time.

He's been done for gnomah handling. They try to keep it quiet. I think we'll probably have to have that legal. Mary Berry, she was clasping one, was she? I think so. She was definitely there yesterday. Anyway, we should say there is a Times Tower's function. I know, I can't go because I've got a previous assignment. I know, you're actually doing, you're going to something interesting.

Well, it's people I met during the Women's Prize for Fiction, which I was a chair of judges on 2008. But who won the prize the year you judged it? Marilynne Robinson for Home. And I have, I'm going to be completely honest about this. It's one of those things that sometimes, when there's nothing in my worry vacuum, that's quite a rare thing these days, I do worry about that.

Yes, I know what you mean. Because there was another book in the fray, which it's not that it deserved to win more. It's just Marilynne Robinson had won every prize going, and she's a very established author. The book, Home is super. superb and the level of prose is amazing and all of that kind of stuff. But I look back and sometimes I think there was just another one in that pile which was so cracking. And I'm not going to say

which one it was because how frustrating would that be. It wouldn't be ideal for the author to hear that. But it's a weird one. And actually somebody did contact me once and she was writing a PhD in what happens in judging rooms. And so how these things are defined and successes as defined and what you're looking for and stuff. And I did tell her my story. I felt better for having told somebody that. But it is an odd one. Six people decide something that is really career-changing

for the person who wins, but career-limiting for all of the people who don't. And it's a very subjective thing going down. How much unlimited money involved is that? So you win a little Betty statue, and I think at the time, I mean, you know, this was a long time ago, 18 years ago, I think 30,000 pounds. But it's, it's the publicity, it's the print run, it's the

opportunity to talk about it, you know, it's the thing. I mean, I don't suppose anybody is, you know, sniffing at 30,000 pounds, but it's not, you're not in it for the money. No, okay. Gosh, it's quite a burden. Being a judge is a burden. I was a judge once for a radio breakfast music show prize. I didn't know why they picked me. Anyway, I just gave it to the show I thought was the most rackety and discordant and assumed it was fashionable.

And it did win. The other judges agreed with me. I'd never really listened to it and I never would. So is that the Sonys? Yeah. Yeah. So I think they were very odd too, Jen. We can say this now because they've been disbanded. Yes, I think judging, yeah, because you could, I mean, people would enter a piece of audio that had probably been put through

old Instagram perfection ringer and made slightly slicker than it actually had been at the time. I'm just going to say it. Yeah. I think there was a bit of that going on. But anyway, there was no way on earth I'd ever have listened to this breakfast show myself.

It was such noise. But I just thought young people must love it. And clearly all the other judges who were all as old as me thought, yeah, we better give this the big prize because so people think we're young and trendy. Yeah. And that's how it won. Anyway, well done to everybody at Kiss FM.

Yeah, but if you've got experience of judging Huddles, we'd be very interested in hearing about them. Or judging, I mean, this, well, we're not quite at that time of year, but some of produce, produce shows, you know, where you get a big turnip and, or, um, those, you know, cakes where people in the village make cakes and it's down to a panel of very, very exacting judges to decide who gets the much, I mean, much coveted best Victoria sponge award. I mean, because that, people really care about that sort of shit. Absolutely. I would care.

All the way back to the Chelsea Flower Show, getting a gold at Chelsea puts you on the map. Does it? Okay, so your business will absolutely. Yeah. And it's a real, real stamp of approval. And again, that's quite a subjective thing. Different gardens do different things to different people, don't they? Yes, mainly it's just a place of sanctuary for the local fox population.

Very much, though. And, you know, a nice bench on which to sit down and take some more bened. drill in my case. Oh God. Yes, you've been quite... It's very heavy-fever, yeah. It's very hay fever. Yeah, I used to get it. I just don't get it anymore. Well, isn't that interesting? So your immune system has just changed a bit. But I think every summer is a slightly different level of pollen. You know, some springs are more, you know, high octane in terms of the pollen than others. So perhaps this is a particularly good or bad one. And I never used to get it. You didn't get it now. Gosh, it's weird, isn't it? Do you know, the other

afternoon. It was one of those sunny days we had not that long ago. I was on a deck chair. My lovely Dora, she takes the other one when we're outside, and the fox was on the shed roof, and Dora and I both fell asleep. And the fox then sneezed and woke us both up. And I actually thought at that point, this is getting ridiculous. Okay, I've just kind of learnt to live alongside this creature, but the fact that it now sneezes and wakes other law-abiding residents up, I'm not having it for. What I do about it, I don't really know. Nobody does with the fox. I don't think we want to return to dead foxes.

No, we don't, but it's just, it is just incredible that I've just learned to live with these animals who inhabit a chunk of my garden and show absolutely no sign of pissing off. They're here to the day. It does look like it, doesn't it? I think maybe in 50 years' time the fox is a domesticated animal in the urban environment. It'll be buying that gorgeous property you've got in your hands there. This is superb. It comes in from Kate.

and thank you for sending this to me. My eyes were out on extendable Pogo sticks reading about a five-bedroom, semi-detached house for sale on a well-known, great-big estate agency site based in Barnes in South West London. Now, I've driven through Barnes occasionally, don't know anything about it.

You can't get there now with Hammersmith Bridge closed? Okay, well, can you tell us, can you set the scene what Barnes is? Well, it used to always blow my mind that you could cross Hammersmith Bridge no longer open to motor vehicles, though pedestrians and cyclists can have a go on it. And you would enter, honestly, Fee, it's another world.

You basically leave London behind you just by crossing the River Thames and you enter a sort of home county's bucolic idyll that doesn't seem to bear any relation to the bustling, diverse, hectic, occasionally quite mad capital city that is so close to it. It's just bizarre. And the house within it... Oh my goodness. Reflects the kind of person who wants to live in that environment.

Yeah. So Kate, thank you so much for... It doesn't have a tube station. Oh, okay. So really it's quite hard to live there, I think. Well, I mean, that's just going to be the preserve of somebody who doesn't need to work or gets an executive car to pick them up, isn't it? Quite possibly.

If anybody is listening who lives in Barnes, tell us about its appeal. Because I've always found it... It's got a great cinema, actually. One of those sinners where you can have a bevy in your seat. I know, but they're everywhere, aren't they? I suppose they are now. I suppose they are now. Yeah.

And I can't say I've never been there, but I wouldn't, I don't think I'd want to live there. I'll read a little bit of what you could buy if you've got 5.6 million pounds available to you. Offering over 3,600 square foot of thoughtfully arranged living space. I like mine when it's just shoved together. Hap hazard. Couldn't care less. The property has been comprehensively refurbished to an exceptional standard, resulting in a distinctive and contemporary residence.

The house has been designed by Trevor Morris, founder of the award-winning Whateves, with an impressive portfolio that includes... Whate's, Waves, Woyers, Wows. Inside, the property has been carefully considered at every level. Again, I like it when it's just chaos. With bespoke design elements integrated throughout a warm natural palette defines the interiors.

A striking central staircase forms the core of the house, finished in soft green Argentine leather, which took four seamstresses, 120 hours, to hand sew and stitch. I thought you're going to say years. I'm not actually that impressed by 120 hours. And underlines the remarkable attention to detail throughout the home. Who wants a staircase finished in soft green leather? Incredibly dangerous.

So dangerous. And just think of the scuff marks. I mean, you would have used it three times and there'll be something of bother on that or a scratch that you can't do anything. thing about. Well, you presumably you can just call one of these artisan seamstresses up and she'll come around and see to it. Quite possibly. Yeah. The paragraph continues, connecting all four floors. Well, what the bloody hell do you think of staircase does? It is not a USP.

It just stops. Nowhere near any of the floors. My staircase connects all floors. It acts as both of functional and sculptural feature within the home. The layout follows practical family arrangements with formal reception rooms on the ground floor. Have you got a formal reception room? Yes, I don't formal. And a spacious kitchen. I like mine pokey, as we know.

I like my pokey galley kitchen. Family area and cinema room. Operated by pro media. Operate. So they come round and they operate it for you. Operated by somebody else. Located on the lower ground level. Bedrooms are arranged across the upper floors,

including an impressive principal suite set with a thoughtfully, so much thought. There's a lot of thought on. There's so much thought. A thoughtfully designed roof extension distinguished by its texture and contemporary facade. There's only so much more that we can take of all of this, but I'll just draw your attention to the landscape garden,

which measures nearly 150 feet and is divided into three rooms. It's a garden. Which includes the lawn area, the outdoor kitchen and woodland with studio, which ideal home office benefiting from fibre optic connection, the middle section of the garden. you'll find a bespoke outdoor kitchen which includes gas hobbs stove, Gosney Pizza oven,

along with the jacuzzi for chilling out. To get to the studio, you have to go through a wooded area which has custom timber outbuildings. You get a special guide to help you there. Serving as both storage and a children's play area with nearly 30 silver birch trees with a natural backdrop

that will continue to mature over time. Hang on a second. And Russell in the wind. Well, come to Dalston. You will find that the litter blows around, it rustles in the wind. Yes. And you can go to a local park if you want to find your woodland area. So you do not need to go to Barnes and spend nearly $6 million just to get a guaranteed rustle.

Yeah. And by the way, there'll be loads of foxes in that area. Oh, my God, they'll have a field day because you've got a pizza oven. You're leaving all your bits and bulbs and your whatever's. Rustling Woodland and a cinematographer on 24-7 call. Yeah, it's just gone too far. It's a house that is just completely and utterly showing off. It's just, it's so, hey, look at me, it's a narcissistic house.

It's solipsism in bricks and mortar. I don't like it and I don't want it. Thank you, Kate. She's put a cash offer in for it. She's moving in next week. She's going. Oh, and all of those adjectives. I mean, they're just like bum-fluff.

You just take them out. Take them out. Let's just cleanse our palate by visiting briefly Liverpool and the Mosley Hill area where Rachel brings us news of what she does with saucepan lids I think this is a good idea she just wedges them behind or inside a radiator So clever. That is so clever Rachel I don't know why more people don't do that. Well done you.

Caroline says I was listening to off-air as usual last night and heard Eve say she'd been on a wild goose chase. Yeah, I mean, are you ready to talk today, Eve? I'm ready. She was largely off duty yesterday due to a heavy weekend of half-marathon attendance. Did you ask Eva, if she was ready to talk? Doesn't that belong to Emma Barnet? Ready to talk? I'm ready.

Yeah, you are ready. She got you reunited with a working phone, I think, as well. Yeah, my phone came back to life. It was amazing. CPR. The little miracle of whereabouts do you live? Peckham. The little miracle of Peckham.

That's occurred. You want to contact somebody about that. yourself in the local papers. Have you seen the baby Jesus on a piece of toast as well? I was listening to Our Fair as usual last night and heard it, you say, she'd been on a wild goose chase getting your next book club book. By coincidence, I'd heard my neighbour use the same phrase yesterday. Love it.

And I'd been wondering whether it means that it's the geese that are wild or the chase. I prefer to think it's the chase and think that's how Eve said it. But I'm not sure. I am inclined to agree for no particular reason. I've got lost on this, so it's geese. that have gone wild? When you use the expression, wild goose chase, is it that you are trying to capture a wild animal, the goose,

or is it simply that you're feeling a bit giddy and you've decided to chase geese? Yeah, so you've gone, so you could call it a crazy... Yeah. Or are the geese going wild on a chase? Well, we don't know. I think not for the first time we've established that we don't know. And I don't want to be used as a point of authority on this

just because I use the phrase, because really, I've got no idea. Okay, right. Welcome back anyway. Thank you. To the world of blissful ignorance, which we inhabit, spend so much time. Our guest today is the excellent Philippa Gregory.

No, it isn't Philipa Gregory. No. I said that earlier, didn't I? There were too many Philippa's in the literary world. This is Philippa Perry, who is an author and qualified psychotherapist, not a keen amateur psychiatrist. She no longer practice this as a psychotherapist.

She's turned her hand to art and all sorts of other things. And now she's written her first novel. Shrink solves murder. Does it feel like the first of several? Well, put it this way. I don't think it's a spoiler to say it ends with a police officer telling the central character Patricia that they need her help on another case.

So I'm no mind reader fee. Or am I? I think there might be another one coming. It's a question I'll put to Philippa a little bit later. Excellent. Well, we'll look forward to that. I'm in trouble from Alice because Alice says,

I watched series one of Deadlock on Fee's recommendation and loved it. It was an impossible to describe funny but also serious detective drama with two female leads, a lot of lesbians and dead people, and the reclaiming of the C word, well, hallelujah to that.

I was so excited for season two and felt disappointed to hear that Fee didn't feel the same way about it and put off starting it. I've just started it. got to the end, I would really encourage you to give it another go. It was funny, tender, explicit, and completely bonkers. What I loved about it most was that every lead part is female or non-binary, and it is completely normal. They're sweary, drunk, imperfect, have fights reconnect to mavericks and

good detectives. And this is what we've seen for decades in male-driven police dramas. So all of that is what I completely loved about series one. But I couldn't get over the very, what I felt was crude language at the beginning of season two, and I'm aware that I now sound like my 84-year-old mother, who I don't think is ever seriously sworn in her life. Isn't that something? I don't think that's uncommon in that generation. I mean, she really, really doesn't. She doesn't, no. I don't like the fact that I do throw four-letter words around in a way that, actually, I don't think neither of my parents would have done that, do that. It takes quite a lot to stop yourself these days, doesn't it?

I know, it doesn't. You're right. I don't think it's a problem to say that I think that my use of bad language is a problem sometimes. I actually wish I didn't do it. Well, when I watched Deadlock season two, and also it was just so, it seemed to be referencing sex more than it needed to be referencing sex. So I stopped. But, Alice, if you really loved series one, and you do say, you know, just, just, just, get to a couple of episodes in and you'll be hooked again. Because whenever I see it come up on my screen at home,

I always really wish that I had like season two and I was waiting to get home and dive into it after Shattow DIY. Which I don't think, actually I don't watch that, I do wait for a little bit of escape to the sun. They had some belters in last nights. Did you watch it? They were in Alicante.

Anyway, I'm going to give it a nice. ago and and also because Alice signs off her email as always love the show Steve. Okay that's good we like that we like the reference now I've been actually drip feeding myself Amanda land the second series and I've only done two episodes I really do find that funny and it very little makes me laugh out loud but there is always at least a couple of moments I either recognize in that program or I genuinely laugh out loud at something same here and it doesn't have to be any important moment I mean literally there's a art joke in the first episode, which makes you both a bit sad because you really like the character, but also you just love. Because in truth, most of us have been there.

So it's pratt-falls, isn't it? It's done to the nth degree. And some of the jokes you can see them coming a mile off, but I completely agree with you. I think it's fabulous. It's very, very funny. And also it has nailed the three-generation thing. You know, the teens are realistic. Joanna Lumley is the Pain in the Ass mom. I mean, we've seen her do that character before. But that's fine. But it's fine. And then Amanda stuck in the middle with her co-labs. Yeah.

But what I'd also genuinely like about the programme is it's diverse without really making much of it. It just is. It is actually. You get a range of characters. It looks like it is in London. And you can find somebody to identify with. So I actually, yeah, I don't know why. Did you say some of the male critics have been a bit sniffy about it?

Yes. Well, I had one male critic. critic say that it was just a kind of paint by numbers deliberately being done before, pastiche of all the things that used to be great about sitcoms. And he was very disparaging about it. But that's what I love, because we know what we're watching. You know, if you grew up on sitcoms, you know what it is. It's an unrealistic depiction of reality. It doesn't have to be incredibly clever. It's not that kind of knowing comedy. It's just absolutely great forward out there, this is, she's going to trip up, she's going to photograph herself naked, she's going to fall down the stairs. He's going to fart. I like it. Yes, exactly. Yes. Right, Melanie, she's a regular correspondent from a lovely part of the world, Chichester. Apologies for the weekend email. Oh, that's all right. 40 years ago, what, go, ago. Hello, Barnes. Yes, I think, Perhaps spiritually, my home is Barnes.

40 years ago when staying at the Fouquet Yacht Club in Thailand, I'll tell you what, get Melanie. We were welcomed by a personal butler, good Lord, and shown the allocated sunbeds for our stay so we could approve their position. Now, this ideally is what every hotel in the sun should do. It was explained that they would be exclusively for our sole use for the duration of our stay.

And next morning, they were indeed labelled with a hand-engraved brass plaque, which remained in place for the entire fortnight. The morning we checked out, they were handed to us as a memento of our stay. Many years later, I remember finding them in a drawer. How about that for service, she says? Well, if only every hotel did that. What a lovely memento.

Yeah, quite what you'd do with it. I mean, that's the thing with mementos, isn't it? You think, oh, well, take that home to remind me. Then you think, why did I do that? Well, to remind you? Yeah, but it's clotter, in it? It's ultimately, it's just clutter. I sometimes like a tiny bit of clutter.

Oh, do, I guess. Well, I've not, yes, I've got a lot of clutter, but sometimes I feel, you know, the beginning of being overwhelmed by it. Yeah. I do like sometimes just coming across a funny thing in a draw and you just have a lovely little pang of memory. But it does tend to be the very kind of pedantic things

that I like actually more than the super engraved or whatever. Yeah. Give me an example. Well, I mean, we've done this before. My dad's stapler is one of my favorite things on the planet. But sometimes when you go through the man draw, do you have a man draw? We've got a draw of, yeah, indiscriminate. Where do we put these?

What the hell is this draw? Yes, yeah. Well, I'll find, you know, I'll just find a whole wrapped up in lots and lots of rubber bands, great big thing of Kirby grips. Do you call them Kirby grips? For hair. Yes. from a time at which my daughter's hair needed tamping down

with about 475 Kirby groups and I thought well nobody's going to be using those now I couldn't throw them out I didn't really know which recycling bin to put them in anyway Well that's a dilemma it is very much so very much so because it's got rubber and metal Well yes does anybody know the answer to that question And I just thought I'm going to keep that

I'm just going to keep that forever Because it's a bit daft but it's just of its time And it's not a work of art that's for sure. I came across my children's polo shirts from primary school signed by their classmates. Brilliant. Yeah, but I mean, I found them. So they obviously haven't cherished them. No, but they will want those in 20 years' time. Yes, Jane, you've got to keep those.

I'll chuck them out. No. No, I haven't. I haven't, actually. No, I'm too sentimental. Yeah, I love the stuff that gets written on those shirts. Good luck. Well, gosh, you were operating in a... more salubrious parts of the what did they put?

No, I want to go there at all. Looking good, I used to be very self-conscious, says Meg, about how I looked, even wearing baggy clothes to hide. Then one day I heard Elmert Fiersen complaining about her toes. I realised if even Elmette Fierson was spending time worrying about her toes, there was no end to it. It's a good point, isn't it?

Yeah, and after that, I made a conscious decision. Oh, to only have your toes to worry about that, Jane. Well, yeah, but I hear the point being made here, which is that sometimes just park it. Yeah. After that, I made a conscious decision to appreciate being healthy enough to do all the things I love. And now when I look in the mirror,

I literally only see the good things. And I'm impressed every day. It probably shouldn't, but it's so much easier and happier to move about in the world when you feel good about how you look. In some ways, I think this must be how men feel all the time. Possibly.

I mean, not all men, though. That's the thing. Absolutely, not all men. Or do you know what? I started last night the new Elizabeth Strout book. She's very short, only out in hard back at the moment. But God, I mean, her ability to make you care about people that don't really exist and that she's made up, it is astonishing.

Yeah. Absolutely astonishing. And she's not a complicated writer. You know, you have to focus because you don't want to miss anything. But it's not impenetrable by any stretch of the imagination. But it's a sign of a great writer, isn't it? There is a cigarette paper between the brilliance of her work and the mundane nature of somebody who doesn't have her talent

writing about daily life in a small town where nothing huge happens. And she nails it. She has the ability to give them emotions and backstories and characterisations that make you care. Yeah. I mean, she's just a phenomenon. And I didn't realize quite how successful she had been

because we talked about that book, didn't we, on the programme? And you asked a very sensible question, I think, of Robbie Millen, or it might have been Laura Hackett, about whether or not she actually really sells, because there's quite often a difference between the number of books sold and the regard of somebody as being high talent. The two things don't always match up. And actually she did.

So the first book that she wrote was admittedly quite a slow burner, but went on to sell something like 25 million copies. So she absolutely banked it. So she's in that very, I think very small bubble in the publishing world of really highly regarded and enormously super sore away bestselling successful. Yeah, well, it's such a good book. I think if you're a teacher, I would urge you to seek this book out.

Things we never say, I think is what it's called. Gosh, I should know that. which you mind looking that up but you've been able to Google it and if you're a teacher the central character is a teacher and very early on you learn about the impact he's had over many years in the classroom

on his pupils and he's going through a bad time but he has made such he's made such a difference to so many lives anyway worth seeking out the things we never say thank you very much the things we never say by Elizabeth Stratt and when you say it's short what 200 pages

yeah okay that's good yeah so worth thinking about. Just briefly back to what you were discussing. This is from Sherry who says, whenever we watch reruns of top of the pops in our house, my daughter always asks, why was everyone so ugly when you were young? It's just a bit,

your daughter's judgment seems to trifle harsh, but I see what she's saying. It does fascinate me, says Sherry, how well-groomed and turned out young people are nowadays. I know I could never have achieved such flowing locks and coordinated clothing when I was a teenager. I explained to my daughter that we just didn't have access

to as many products and cheap clothing as today's young people. If we had frizzy hair, well, it stayed that way, despite our best efforts. I also think our appearance didn't matter as much as it was unlikely to be captured by somebody with a camera and posted somewhere, unlike what happens today. Maybe everyone has to feel Instagram ready at all times. I think that's probably true.

All of that is true. But you're absolutely right, that what you had been given in terms of your looks was what you had to deal with in terms of your looks because there simply, there weren't all of the serums and the skims and all of that around and there wasn't the pressure. No.

I'm just trying to think about the beauty products that actually oil of, as it was called at the time, you lay. Yes. Do you remember and French cleansing milk? And French cleansing milk? Yeah. Always advertised in Jackie. Yep.

and in that straight, it was in a kind of pyramid bottle, wasn't it? Yes, it was worried. I remember when the apricot scrub first came in. Yeah, it was a big day. That was a very big day. And we saved our pennies up and rushed out to buy that because that's exactly what 13-year-old skin needed to be pummeled by some ground apricot stones.

And I think we then, because it was very, it was a little bit out of our price range at the time, we then tried to make our own. And that wasn't successful. Well, did you get a couple of apricot? stones and just bash away. No, put them in the magic mix. In the magic mix.

Right. They didn't. No, they just didn't do anything. I mean, they just, I think they just fused the magic mix. Yeah, they weren't have done wonders for the magic mix. No. And then there was that very, do you remember, and somebody will remember this. It was a product that was billed as being for thin or thinning hair.

It was a mint-scented shampoo and conditioner. Can you remember what that was? Oh, I can smell it. Yes. It was, because it was suddenly. very minty, wasn't it? And that really, that became a total thing. And then I

do remember when the John Frieder anti-frizz first came in because I had, you know, bad hair. I looked like a King Charles Spaniel. Well, King Charles only on the day of the week. Not the current, King Charles. He's a little sparse in the head of part of these days. But there was suddenly...

And that was a wig, by the way. Charles II, that wasn't his real hair. I mean, the man got away with murder. He was very... a bloody wig. I'm not that daft. Anyway, I just go back to the frizzies for a second. It was just a miracle. I mean, it really was one of those products where you just went, oh my God, if only I'd had this

10 years ago. My world would have been completely and utterly different. But they were simpler times and we are not the only people to say it. I'm so grateful that my teenage years were spent pre-social media and mobile phones and Instagram

and all of that. I just I don't know how I don't know how anybody who is coping is coping and I know lots of people aren't I know it's horrible I've suddenly thought that if the current King Charles did venture out in a previous King Charles wig how would people react

Gosh, do you think he would be made more handsome by that? I'm not even sure the original Charles II Charles well he wasn't the original that was the first thing but don't you think that they used all of those things to cover up the fact that they weren't great lookers they weren't going to make it into you know the Grattan

catalogue, were they? The 17th century, graphicist. Yeah, the 17th century and even 18th century monarch and ennobled man, I mean, centuries of inbreeding had led them to be remarkably unattractive. I mean, it's not really until Walpole comes along. You're guaranteed to go for. Male Totty arrived.

When was male totty invented? Let's go back in history. That's the history podcast I'd listen to. Why doesn't somebody make it? it. It is true though, isn't it? When did you look at a man from history and think? Peter the Great, I should say so.

I don't know. They're very unattractive and the women are very attractive. Yes, it was just not a level playing field. Why don't we bring in somebody erudite, informed, multi-talented, it's novelist, psychotherapist, Philippa Perry? Well, the interview's already up and running, Philippa, so it'd be very careful. No, it just started. You're all right.

Welcome back. Philippa Perry is our guest this afternoon, a psychotherapist, agony aunt and artist. She's written a novel now, although she has already written a number of incredibly successful non-fiction works, including the book you wish your parents had read and your children will be glad that you did.

Anything else on your CV? You want me to mention, Philip? No, I think that will do, thank you. Okay, well, you're very, very modest. Right. I don't know where to start with this. I wonder how many more strings. You've got to your bow, woman. Do you think, are you just on stop before?

I like doing new things. I don't like doing the same thing over and over again. Like I'm learning how to throw pots at the moment. I've never done that before as well. Who have you got in your life who could help you there? Well, not him. He can't throw. Oh, can't he?

Okay. Oh, well, let's not talk about him anyway because that's not why you're here. Has it always, this idea to write a novel? Has that always been an itch that you wanted to scratch? Always wanted to write a novel. And I went to creative writing classes in 1987. I've been trying to write one ever since. But I think I've got the hang of it now.

I had a few false starts. Oh, have you? I'd like to hear about the false starts. A few false starts when I get up to about four chapters and I realise I hadn't planned the rest and I got into terrible mess and that sort of thing and then shelved them. But eventually, eventually I've managed it. And did those false starts, did they include a psychotherapist at the heart of the action?

Well, I think my first false starts were when I was a child of about 12 or 11 and I would commentate on myself as I was going around. my business imagining it as an epic novel like the girl grabbed the hose pipe and and sprayed a thousand colours into the air as you know honestly god it was awful and what was that called that book that book it wasn't called anything it never got written thank goodness for that but you just had this narrative I had the narrative going on in my head yeah and I sometimes do play that game with myself and write a bit of a book in my head so it was about time I got it all down on paper. Now I was quite surprised to hear, I don't know why I was surprised, that you were born

in Warrington. Yes, that's right. For some reason, I just didn't see you in Warrington. No, me neither. How long did you stay there? About 16 years. So I was old enough to leave home. I'm not sure I was old enough, but I left anyway. Right, and where did you go at that age? I went, first of all, I was sent, I went to boarding school, so I was never at home anyway, but then I was sent to Switzerland when I was 15 for a year of being finished because I wasn't quite posh enough apparently. And then I went to secretarial college in Oxford. And from Oxford, I gradually drifted down to London. I see. And I've never left. Your secretarial skills are still coming in handy. I can type really fast. That's very handy. So confere, because you did a secretarial

course, didn't you? Well, I did. I mean, should we compare secretarial colleges we were sent to? Were you at the Oxen Cow? I wasn't the Oxen Cowell. I wasn't. Where did you go? I can't remember. I think it was a cheaper one down the road. But it's so weird, isn't it? Because it was of its time that thing. And I went because I completely messed up my A-levels and I just didn't have anywhere to go. I was thought too stupid even to attempt A-levels. So I went there because I was dyslexic and we didn't know about dyslexia then. Can I just ask you then? Because we absolutely do need to get to the novel. But what do you get taught at finishing school in Switzerland? I can make really good shoe pastry. And I think that's an important. skill. I don't like shoe pastry.

Oh, I'll make you a lighter shoe pastry. Right. I should have brought some of the Eclaires in. And what else can I do? Do you have exquisite table manners? Do you know which all the knives are and stuff? I can do parallel turns coming down a ski slope. That's quite good.

Okay. I don't know if my knees could manage it now. Give it a while. And speaking French, you learn how to speak Swiss French. Gosh, okay. So you were well and truly completed at that finishing school. Completely finished off. Right. Okay. Well, I just didn't know that, so I'm fascinated by a finishing school.

I'm glad you asked about the finishing school because I've never really understood the concept. No, me neither. Still not. I hope not. I hope not. I mean, I think they're quite a sexist idea. I think Lady Di went to one in the same valley or maybe even the same chalet. I'm not sure. She lasted a week. Did she? Yeah, I think you're right, you know. I think I do remember that about her. Gosh, okay, well, you're in a very exclusive club, certainly. If anybody else went to finishing school. It was so exclusive that I didn't understand the script when I got there because everybody else was so much potter than I was

that a girl from Warrington didn't really stand a chance. No, I don't know how you make small talk with other people at a finishing school. I really don't. I can even make big talk there. It's all very difficult. You can make shoe pastry. Now, what's so interesting about this book, Shrink Souls, Murder, is that it's a kind of, it's also alongside the murder mystery.

It's a sort of beginner's guide to psychotherapy. Now, I haven't experienced it, and I'm really going to ask you the most basic question imaginable. What does a psychotherapist do? A psychotherapist listens to you, and also she or he will listen for the story under the story you're telling. So while you're telling your story, they'll be looking for patterns, they'll be looking for what your thought processes are. So you can see those skills are quite good for a detective as well. I can. And actually, in the acknowledgements at the end of the book, you give credit to a female detective who then became a psychotherapist. Yes, I did. That was the lovely Amanda Barry. And I made one of my police officers called Amanda and I call the other one Barry.

I love these jokes are all the way through. I love the, they're just for me really. But presumably, she'll, she'd make a very good psychotherapist because she'd been a detective. Exactly. Okay. So when you get to see a client for the very first time, what is your opening gambit? Is there a universal starter or is it all completely personalised? I think you just sort of, I would say something like, what brings you here now? Something like that. But I didn't have a gambit. I would relate to the person in front of me. I'm retired now. That's why I'm in the past tense. Yes.

But I would relate to the person in front of me like a person. and ask them, you know, what brings them if they know. And I know you won't betray any confidences, but what were the most normal, well, what were the most common replies to that question? People felt a bit lost or felt a bit stuck, usually, or they felt really depressed or really anxious, something like that.

Or they're in a panic. People come to psychotherapy because they've got feelings and they don't like those feelings. and they want to have different feelings. And is there any way to have different feelings? How can... Well, we generate our feelings from our actions, like how we talk to ourselves,

how we respond to situations. So once we become more self-aware because of our excellent psychotherapy, then you have more choice of how you respond to your life. And so that will change how you feel. That will change how you feel. Okay. Now, in this book, the central character is Patricia Phillips.

That's right. I wonder where she comes from. But she's quite a grumpy, middle-aged lady psychotherapist. I don't think she's got the estrogen patches because she is quite grumpy, isn't she? Well, I'm here to say that I have got the patches and I'm much less grumpy than Patricia is. She gets across about everything. Dog walkers, litter. I was doing a talk in West Kirby the other day.

very beautiful part of the Wirral. And this lady said, I've read the book, and I didn't think Pat was grumpy at all. And the whole room laughed because I thought, yeah, you're right. She's just normal. Yes. Well, she is normal. She's right about, she's indignant about all the right things, I would say. So I had a lot of sympathy with her.

So what I meant about the kind of beginner's guide to psychotherapy in the novel is that you just sort of insert little bits of information about why people behave in the way they do. And one of your police characters, the more lowly of the two police officers involved. Barry Footer. Barry Footer, sorry, I was struggling for the name. Thank you. He eats a lot. He does eat a lot. He eats a lot of the wrong things.

And you tell us why. Yes, poor old Barry has got an empty void inside of himself that he's trying to fill. And Pat guesses from a few clues of what he said that he is the, he's for the, he's from a broken home and both his mother and his father went on to have new families and he feels like he doesn't didn't he's only in his you know early 20s and he feels like he doesn't have anywhere to really belong and so he compensates by eating and Pat guesses this and when she takes him to Costa coffee there's a nice little plug for Costa coffee there I'm not paid by them I should have arranged that when she takes him to Costa coffee she says

sort of gets his story out of him. And then he gives us some information on the case that he isn't really supposed to give her, but he can't help himself. Right. And this is in this method using her psychotherapeutic skills. The dark arts. The dark arts of psychotherapy. Hat solves the crime.

I don't want to give it too much way. But there are other elements too. There are swingers in the village. Terrible, aren't they? The swingers. Poor Pat. She has to put up with them by peering at them through her bathroom. through a window through a pair of binoculars, even though the swingers were kind enough to put up

a laylandy hedge. She's still spies on them, yeah. Yeah, okay, but you also tell us what swingers are missing from their lives that make swinging an attractive option. Yes, I'm not quite sure what I what I said on that point. I think I might have said, I think we were thinking in the book I'm trying to work out why a particular character is a swinger. Yeah. And I think we deduce that he likes the attention and he's possibly a sex addict, but also, in his case, he's looking for people to exploit. So that was his reason for swinging. There's another character called Fee or Fiona.

Sorry about that. And she swings because she just loves being adored and she needs admiration all the time. But she's also very controlling. Just for anyone just tuning in. This is not a reference to my colleague, Fiona Glover. Sorry about that. I didn't base the character on you.

Please don't sue me. No. Except there is a character called Pritchard Knowles, who's based very firmly on your friend Richard Coles. Could be, could be. He's actually put a character in his next novel that he's writing at the moment called Philida Berry, and he tells me she's a right slapper.

So all's fair in love and neighbourhoods. You are actually good friends, are you? Well, I hope so. Yeah, I don't know about that. Richard Coles can start a fight in an empty room. So maybe. He's actually probably the nicest man I know, but yeah. Yeah, okay.

I will let you have that. And Instagram features too. And I've recently got to keep up with the modern world. No, I mean, I've just deleted Instagram. I just thought I can't, I just don't want this in my life anymore. I admire you for that. Yes, thank you. One of your characters is into it, makes a living from it, as many people do.

And good luck to them. Yeah, she's a trad wife influencer. Yes. I mean, what is Instagram all about? As a former psychotherapist, what do you read into the motivations of people who excel on it? Well, it could be because people like showing off and say, look at me and isn't this great and aren't I making contact with loads of people. But it also could be, am I acceptable?

Do I belong? And what I noticed about the tourists near me near Beechie Head and Burlingat is that they all want to take the same photograph. They don't want to be original. They want to take the same photograph in the same place where their favourite pop group took a photograph. And I think it's just about belonging sometimes. And is there more of a longing to belong than back in, I don't know, the 1970s or 80s when we were growing up? I think we just naturally belong then. But now when people are so isolated because we've got two ways of living, we've got living online and living in real life, IRL. And when you were just lived in IRL.

I mean, I can remember thinking, oh, I'm a bit lonely. I'm walking out of my house and knocking on doors and going, hi, do what, you know, should we go for a drink? Just spontaneously without ringing up first or anything. And I think that gave us all a bit more sense of community. And then with the phones and messaging first and making arrangements and getting so much older and so booked up, that we're making arrangements for months and advice,

advanced sometimes. I think spontaneity is gone. We're losing the spontaneity of an instant community and I've put a bit of back because this is a village in my book and people live very close to each other so there is quite a lot going on. Your character is a mother. She has a daughter

who's the Instagram starlet and Patricia acknowledges that she hasn't been wasn't the best mother. Now you've written a book about parenting and I think Unfortunately, Patricia didn't read it in time. No, but in a moment, I could scarcely believe, actually. You do have your character, giving another character in your book, a copy of a book by a friend of theirs who's a psychotherapist,

who's written a book about parenting. In other words, your book. Yeah, if you can get a plug in anywhere, get it in. Shrink Souls Murder, everybody. Srinx Shells Murder, there we go. You are shameless. I know. I know. It's a really good book.

Is it true, though, that we are not obliged as parents to repeat the parents. parenting that we had ourselves? No, when we become aware of the effect it had on us, we can decide to do something different. So often we don't want to look at that effect. And so often we want to go, oh, it was fine, never did me any harm. And what that is is a sort of desensitization. And then we're not so sensitive to our babies and toddlers as we might be.

I'm not saying we must mollycoddle. them or give them everything they want. Not at all. That's not good for them. We need to have boundaries, but we need love plus boundaries. And loving someone is taking them seriously as a person. So your baby is a person. What do you mean by taking them seriously? Well, not going, oh, kids and brushing them aside, but sort of taking their concern seriously. And if we take our children seriously when we think they're being a little bit silly, they won't hesitate to bring the bigger stuff to us. I mean, so many people get abused at school or by relations or whatever

and don't feel they can tell their parents because they've been brushed off so often. I mean, the parents probably think that it's quite right to brush them off when they're saying something like, I don't like lentils. But a kid might put, the piano teacher put his hand on my leg, which I did not like in the same bracket as I don't like lentils. So if you don't get listened to about the lentils, might not tell you about the dodgy piano teacher. So you've got to make yourself available. Yeah. You've got to be available for relationship because that is your kids safe home, a relationship.

Do you think that you are happier as a psychotherapist because you better understand humans or actually the exact opposite, unhappy because you do? That's a very good question fee and I think it would depend very much on the psychotherapist. Well, just you. Just me. I love my life. and I didn't used to love my life. And I put that down in part, A, to having a great partner and great friends, and B, becoming more aware of the ways I made myself miserable and making some changes. And I couldn't have done that without therapy. So I know you're not practicing as a psychotherapist,

but people who do have to have regular therapy, don't they themselves? It's a good idea. Yeah. It depends what a governing body you're ruled by, but usually, yeah. Yeah, okay. I mean, I just wonder whether, I have read that you've said that therapy is just becoming too accessible now. What I meant by that is that on your favourite thing, Instagram, there are so many sort of pseudo-therapists giving people excuses to blame other people. And that sort of open brackets therapy is too prevalent, I think.

And because I think we need a culture of responsibility, not a culture of blame, when it comes to how we take responsibility for ourselves. Now, one of the tweaks you have made, and I wouldn't mention this, except I know you already have talked about it, is your use of the weight loss drugs. Oh, yes, I love a bit of Monjor, me. And you've said so. And has that been part of your, I don't know, your, your mental transformation if you like.

Well, I used to have in my head what I called food noise, it was sort of saying, do you think you could have another biscuit or do you think you've had your quota of biscuits for the week? And they would take up so much of my head. Go on Monjaro and I just eat what I need to eat

and know more because I don't want any more. And that frees up my mind for writing novels, which is great. Because where I used to have food noise, now I'm writing a novel. So that's great. Okay, is food, I mean, I'm already, I'll be honest with you, I am thinking what I'm going to have for my tea tonight, because that's what the kind of person I am. Is that food noise? No, food noise is when you're having an argument with yourself about whether you could have. Oh, I shouldn't, I mustn't. Yeah, I shouldn't, I mustn't. How much Taramazolata is in the fridge and can't eat a whole pot.

Taramacilata used to be my go-to when I was pre-menstrual. I could not, but I can't stand the stuff now. It's very good for you. Not until I'm implying I'm post-menstriation. No, darling, you're very young. You're still estrogen providing. There's so much estrogen in the room. Oh, well, there's a lot. Can I just inform you both that the finishing school is still a thriving thing?

Oh, my God. And you would still be able to go to Institute Villa Pierre-Foe in Switzerland, where you would be able to experience their comprehensive program designed to delve into both modern practices and timeless traditions of international etiquette and protocol. This course provides students with the late. knowledge on social and business etiquette, cross-cultural customs, diplomatic protocol, table setting and decoration. And shoe pastry.

Oh, why can't we call it what's it called table-scaping? That's my favourite word. Table-scaping. Table-scaping. They've got to update that website. It's table-scaping now. You've done your job with the old marketing because Paul says I'm downloading the book on Audible. Oh, good.

As you speak. That's good because it's read by Joanna Scalon, who's brilliant. She was a guest on the podcast on the program not that long ago. I'm following her about. I'm a fan. Are you? Okay. Well, you did allude to your partner, Grayson Perry. So we may as well just check in. How is he? Well, he's just announced today that his musical, Grayson, the musical, is on in Waltonstow this summer. Goodness me. Right. And this is what, all singing, all dancing pottery?

No, no, no. It's about five years ago, a guy called Richard Thomas just called him out of the blue. he'd done other musicals, he'd done Jerry Springer the musical. And he said, I want to make a musical of your life. And Grayson in for a penny, in for a pound, goes, yeah, all right. So for the last six years, they've been making this musical of Grayson's life. Gosh, there is never a dull moment down your neck of the woods. No, and the songs and the lyrics are absolutely banging. Well, we'll all be heading Wolframstow way.

You will, and don't forget to buy a copy of Shrink Souls murder on your way. Shy retiring. Philippa. I just wish she could get the hang of this publicity. We've had to help her out a lot. Yeah, I know. I've had to go on a course. Thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you for having me. It's been great. We appreciate it. Philippa Perry, not Gregory, although as Eva's just pointed out, Philippa Gregory could have asked some of our questions about Tottie from history. We'll get her back on at some point to do exactly that. But Philippa Perry was our guest and her book is Shrink solves murder.

And it's, well, it's a lovely world to inhabit just for a couple. Treat yourself to that book for a couple of days. You'll just glide into the, I'm going to say, the moderate mystery of what's occurred down by the sea. Is that enticed you? Yes. Okay. Right. Who's our guest tomorrow?

Lauren Southern is our guest tomorrow. I don't think you'll recognise her name, but she is remarkable. So she disappeared off into the manosphere as a 19-year-old. Her own choice. Her own choice. So she got very caught up in this sudden whirlwind of accolades that came her way for saying things. I think her most clicked on and shared video was called Why I'm Not a Feminist,

and that set her off down this path of appealing to, the far right and the alt-right and people like Tommy Robinson befriended her and she ended up being friends with the Tate's which all went disastrously wrong for her and she's come out the other side chain and there are very few voices I think around at the moment because this is all in the very very close rearview mirror

who are able to say I've been through it this is what I fell for at the time and in coming out of it this is what I want to condemn It's a very hard human thing to admit you got something wrong, especially when that is your young life displayed there the first time most people meet you, it's as that. And she has come out the other side and says the whole thing is just beyond dark and she was lucky to get through it.

So I hope you'll be able to listen to it. I think both Eve and I were amazed at her eloquence. I wasn't prepared to like her as much as I ended up liking. her. And that's my prejudice about a woman who used to say things like there's no rape culture in the West and who, you know, definitely saw herself as being the right kind of person to be on the planet at other people's expense. But she's really come out the other side and she was great listen. Okay, that is tomorrow then, part of the podcast and you can also hear it on Times Radio. And Corporate Kathy, welcome back. When is our show on? It's on Times Radio, Monday to Thursday,

between 2 o'clock and 4. It is available, of course, on the Times Radio app. I use it myself on my commute into work every day. It's entirely free. Free. So even if you don't live in Barnes, you can afford it. Goodbye. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.