Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Picky, indecisive, and uninterested in a place in the sun (with Claudia Hammond)

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

Fi's a bit blissed out on medication and Jane doesn't really know anything today, so bear with us as we muddle through... Jane and Fi chat the Buxton postal system, washing your oven gloves, the Beckham feud, and cats on leads. Plus, academic psychologist and presenter Claudia Hammond discusses her latest book ‘Overwhelmed’. We’re taking suggestions for our next book club pick! The brief is: books that deserve to be re-read. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A week we're not though, are we? It's tattooed Tuesday. Do you feel tattooed today? No, not really. How's your back? Not great. No. I'm still heavily medicated.

Dear, it's not funny. Sometimes when people are heavily medicated, they're sort of slightly, just gently zoned out. Oh, no, I am a bit zoned out. I'm having to walk at your pace. And it just takes so long. I'm about 15 minutes. to the tube station this morning.

Because you couldn't do your trademark bustle. I can't go place. Anyway, thoughts and prayers to anybody with a bareback. It's one of those things, isn't it? That people have bad backs, and I think until you've had a bad back, you're a bit dismissive of bad backs. Well, if you have a bad back and it's all you can think about. It's a classic lead swinging tactic, as we used to call it up north,

to take time off work with a bad back. I don't know where the expression lead swinger comes from, but someone who takes a lot of time off work. Yes, where would lead the swinger come from? I always thought that actually that was a term about violence. No, I think I always associated with people who enjoy time off sick, perhaps have rather more than the average. Okay.

I think I've got that right. Can we just bring in a domestic issue from Sarah further to conversations about dishcloth? She asks, how often are we washing oven gloves? It's such a good question. It is, and I can answer this with a clear conscience, because as it happened, I picked up my oven gloves. gloves at the weekend and went, and shoved them in a hot wash. So Sarah, it's a kind of pleasant memory for me because I've taken action, but it's a very good point. Quite often on the thumb of

the oven glove, because that can dip into... That gets close to the action, doesn't it? It does. So there'll just be a terrible kind of crusty lump, right there. And you don't know what it is. Well, quite often I've looked at it and I thought, well, that's at least a week old. It can't be carrying any kind of bacteria. I'll just use it again. The wonder we're here at all. It is. When you wash an oven glove, does it lose its asbestos nature, though? I don't know.

Is that why people don't do it? I don't know. Well, there we are. It's a world of wonder. If you can answer that question, please, please let us know. I'd just like to give a small award to Atlanta Wardell-Yerberg. Just for her name. Great name.

Who sent me the most wonderful. wonderful little video of, well, I'll just read this, found this rather entrancing and thought Fee might enjoy it as a pallet cleanser between all of the shit news, especially love the gentle offering of the pores for drying halfway through. It is actually on substack, which I always thought was just for words, but this is a video on substack, and it's two really beautiful greyhounds who come in from their walk and they have their coats taken off, they have their leads and collars taken off and both of them very gently just glide in somebody's apartment towards the bath and step into the bath where every time they come back from a walk they have their paws cleaned and shampooed

and they just hold each individual pour up to be cleaned and then dried and then they step out of the bath it is absolutely entrancing so they just go with the plan they know what's happening and they want it to do they want it to happen and it's really beautiful to watch right um i did watched the first episode of David Badeel Cat Man last night. What did you think? Well, he's our guest on the pod tomorrow. So listen up, everybody. Cat lovers will enjoy it.

If you don't like cats, don't listen. Well, a little bit like you. God alone knows how they're going to get another two episodes out of it. But it's not like I don't like cats, I do. I was watching it with Dora. She did pay attention for a couple of nanoseconds. She was very shamed by, I think it was the cat called Jasper,

climb Ben Nevis. And I actually said to her, come on, Tora, this cat has climbed Ben Nevis. I mean, come on, doesn't that make you think? It didn't appear to. She just shuffled off. But Jasper's owner did say it just took such a long time because Jasper doesn't move at speed. No, but Jasper appeared to be enjoying the walk that he went on with his owner and David Badeel. I don't think Jasper was distressed by walking on a lead. But if you have, genuinely, if we'd like to put some of your comments and questions to David, if you have trained your cat to go out for walks, And I did encounter one of my neighbours recently walking her cat

down a street not far from our house and she said, oh well, because my daughter and I asked how long have you been doing this and she said, oh well, since she was a kitten. And so it's something you have to start early if you're going to start it at all. But on the whole, cats, they don't need that kind of exercise. Do they want to do their thing

at their own pace and their own habitat, I think. Could be wrong, I don't know. Would Barbara take well to going out on a lead? No. She really wouldn't. Give her a new option to piss outside the home, wouldn't it? She's turned into our treat of a cat now. So she's on my lap every night and it's Brian who's gone very, very rogue.

Right. There are some funny bits in the documentary where David's doing a cat yoga or kitten yoga. Which, I mean, is that fair on anybody? I mean, I wouldn't have thought so. But one of the kittens is taking a lively interest in his crotch. He says I don't want to be cancelled so I don't really know what to do. I did think that bit was quite funny. Yeah, I mean it's definitely, it's very watchable, isn't it?

But I'm with you. I think the narrative arc for me is going to be a little bit of a challenging thing to find. It's not succession, is it? No, I think judging by the preview, he goes, big cats. Yes, I did notice they were getting very much larger the cats. In the next one. Is it true that the ginger cats? is actually a descendant of a kind of lion type.

I don't think so. Cross-species sexual experiment. Well, let's go with that as an idea. I don't think so. Because that would suggest at some point that a lion has had a go with... With a domestic tabby. Oh, I don't know why,

but that makes me think of the big news that broke last night. Let's just be honest about it. We were all sort of... In fact, I was watching Catman. and then all my socials, every WhatsApp. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. A child who was at her father's came home immediately to discuss it with me. This is the Beckham debacle.

Do we call it a debacle? Well, why don't you explain to our listeners who might not be on the same kind of WhatsApp groups as we are? What happened last night? Well, what happened last night was that Brooklyn Beckham, who I think it's fair to describe him as the estranged son of the Beckham clan. Well, he calls himself a chef. He said, well, he is, well, he's, yes. He's now living in the States. He's happily married, very recently married,

to the daughter of an extraordinarily influential and very wealthy family. And he doesn't want anything more to do with Brand Beckham. And actually, I think you read what he had to say and what he's trying to put across is that his life was bloody miserable. They made it miserable. That's his side of the story.

We don't yet have a word from the other side, do we? No. So he says that basically his childhood was controlled for the purposes of what he calls performative relationships and the images that are sent out to the world of the Beckham dynasty. And he is obviously incredibly upset about what happened around his wedding and he has now blocked all of his family, hasn't he, on social media channels, which is such a modern thing to say.

I mean, if you and I had said that, you know, out loud, even 10 years ago, people would have gone up, so I don't really, what have you just said? Yeah, exactly. What does that mean? But that's where we've come to, hasn't it? Where you can... Yes, it's not actually a great place to be, is it?

It's actually sad, whichever way you look at it. But if you are going to monetise your family's idyllic life, then let's just be honest, you'd probably do it at your peril, don't you? Very much so. And he didn't, he says that he didn't agree to sign something that would basically trademark. his name within the family. It all sounds very for cute.

I've always thought this about people who, and there are lots of them now, who take their tiny babies and toddlers who can't in any way give consent and then use them as part of their brand. And it works a dream. If you've got a particularly lovely looking toddler, I quite enjoy those things myself,

watching them do funny things, falling over, picking themselves back up, saying their first words, all of that stuff. There's money to be made here, there, but the little ones involved, they are going to grow up and they're going to have thoughts about it, aren't they? Yes, James. Yeah, I just think it's a weird one. Anyway, I'm not going to pretend I'm not interested in the Beckham saga because I am, but I will just go back to one thing I'm sure I've mentioned before, when my daughters, who, lots of jobs, they've had lots of

hospitality jobs, like lots of young people, and they encountered the Beckham children at various points, and they always said they were super, super polite. I'm just putting it out there. go manners they had manners yeah so we'll never know you know the full reality of somebody else's family um i have a lot of sympathy for brooklyn beckham because he you only have one childhood you can't go back and live it again you can't help who your parents are and and if in your young adult life so not even with a long view massive benefit of hindsight perhaps when you've got kids of your own you know it changes your perspective on what you were expected to do and what was asked of as a child. He's a very young man

and it's obviously the rearview mirror, the immediate image is one that's very, very painful to him at the moment. So I know that he's very well off and I know that he's not really a chef and all of those things but I feel for him, Jane, I feel for him a bit. He can't not be Brooklyn Beckham. No, and he's just got no choice and he's trying to tell everybody

that he'd like a choice. And you may disagree and think it's hypocritical to do that in public. But actually he hasn't done it in public until now. He's been trying to find a way around it, in fact, if you believe his side of the story. There's always another side. Well, there is. There is. And I always start off, you know, with this massive kind of, you know, vat of sympathy and empathy for people. Megan.

And then you're a year down the line, you're like, yeah, he told you so. No, no. We've had thoughts from Australia about the social media ban because it's back in the headlines again. We certainly have. And this is from Yvette, regular correspondent. Always good to hear from you. Thank you very much.

I thought you'd like to hear our perspective on the newly introduced social media ban here in Australia. My eldest granddaughter turns 13 in April. We have spent the last year letting her know she now can't get accounts on social media until she's 16. So she's heading off to high school at the end of this month and got her first mobile phone for Christmas. We feel lucky in the timing, as children who had accounts deleted would have had a different experience.

Before the cutoff day arrived, META was advising users who identified as under 16 to back up their phones, etc., before the big day. They had plenty of notice. And on the day, most of those accounts were taken down. Of course, a minority tried workarounds, and some parents enabled their children, but overall, I think it worked. several million accounts were deactivated. So that's interesting. And there's another one. I think you've got that from Kate.

Yes, in sunny Melbourne, the social media ban has been enforced for about a month. I'm a teacher and also a mother of two teenagers. My 15-year-old son hasn't noticed a thing. This isn't unusual in many regards. Life does have a habit of just swirling playfully around him. The children I teach of primary school age, however, are learning that social media is something for older people. Just by passing a law, it sends a clear message to both parents.

parents and kids that there is need for caution when handing the unfiltered world to under 16s. There are a few isolated kids who rely on their found connections in social media. They find their tribe, but the majority of kids are not happier. Girls can especially be victims of weaponised posts when they're left out, targeted by bullies or made to feel lesser by their peers on a broad and deep range of passing metrics. The 24-7 nature of this world can be relentless and fear of. of missing out means some kids are on their devices more than is healthy. The ban can be negotiated by teens, of course,

but it does allow parents the added authority and impetus to try to limit access. At school in general, we're moving away from a reliance on technology in every lesson. And in my role as a teacher librarian, it's interesting to teach my students about misinformation and disinformation. This coupled with a restrictive approach to social media allows us to get a breather to try to develop their skills, equipment with tools for managing the flood of ideas

and information they're swamped in and frankly develop their bullshit detectors. The UK should go ahead. The tech giants need to be more cautious and considered when it comes to our young people. Taking them out of this social media means they're not fodder at such impressionable ages. And that's exactly the point

and you've made it so much better than I managed to do yesterday, Kate. that actually for all of the people who say there's no point in doing this because you can just get a VPN, you can just get round it, kids will always find a way, it is the message that you send to the balance sheets of the tech companies that is hugely, hugely important because it just might nudge them towards marketing and coding that's aimed at older kids and that would be a very, very healthy thing to do.

So it's a very eloquent email, Kate, and I think you've made all your points brilliantly. You must be an absolutely terrific teacher. Yeah. Thank you very much, Kate. I agree. I think you're absolutely right. It's just about putting that marker down,

letting the big companies know you cannot have it all your own way. Yeah, and don't sit in a boardroom and say, oh, yes, let's find a way, you know, to... Good way around it. Yeah, to, you know, get young kids to stop eating, to nudify other kids, to do all of the things that we know are happening and we know are targeted at very, very young children and teenagers.

Actually, our guest is interesting today. So relevant to you. Yes. Yes, Claudia Hammond. She is a top psychologist, and she has written a book called Overwhelmed, which is all about trying to deal with this new world, and it's incredibly helpful.

It's got very easy kind of bite-sized suggestions on how we can stay sane, and just be the kind of better selves that we know. We know we can be, but somehow our phones are preventing us from being. It's so weird because I've already, I've come off X and I've deleted Instagram, but I'm still looking at my phone at least three hours a day. So what are you looking at? I'm asking myself, what the hell am I looking at?

The Times. BBC News. I'm choosing podcast, I'm fuffing about. It has become part of it. It's a kind of a muscle memory thing to keep checking your phone. So I'm sure I'm no different from the vast majority of the population, but isn't it odd? What did we used to do with that time?

It is very strange. And sometimes I find myself looking at my phone thinking, what else can I do on this device? Yes. Oh, is there something I haven't looked at? Especially as my options are now slightly limited. Better check the world news again. Why?

It's just madness, isn't it? So I did realise actually the other day that just my physical connection to my phone over the last couple of years has changed because I used to just leave at places. So we used to leave our phones outside in the production office before going on air when we first started here.

That's really good, that's absolutely right. And now our phones are with us all the time because we need to be checking on them for the latest nanosecond brain fart that's come in, especially from Donald Trump. By the way, we've got American listeners who are just emailing to apologise. It's not your fault.

Unless you voted for him. Actually, one of our political leaders, I did hear the leader of the Liberal Democrats here in the UK, Ed Davey. He was on one radio station or another, just saying that, look, and I'm glad he said it out loud, President Trump is unhinged. We've got, can we just keep saying that?

Because there is, we danced around it all. Well, we don't dance. We don't dance. No, we, actually, in fairness, we don't. We've long said. The man's mad. And I remember sitting on a stage with you in Salford right at the very beginning of fortunately. Oh my God, during the past, well, before, just before the pandemic. When we talked about exactly this and saying, if only when Donald Trump first emerged in the political world,

and I'm going to say Hugh Edwards, because that was the example that we used, it was, that places us in time, doesn't it, when we were still taking that man seriously. you know when he comes on the 10 o'clock news why don't you just say look at this madness that is happening as this man tries to enter politics instead of giving him this revered status because he had entered politics and because he won twice so you know I don't think you and I have ever changed

from our position but we get a lot of flack when we maintain that position on air from people who rightly say he was democratically elected what do we do with that well it's a tricky one and we're still wrestling with it. Share is one of our regular American correspondents,

and she says, why, she's talking about the World Cup, which is going to be played across America, not just North America, but Mexico and Canada as well, I think, some of the games. She says, why don't you just, why don't they just move all the games out of the USA? I mean, I suppose that could happen.

I mean, I've also heard people saying, we should just boycott the Men's World Cup, just, but that would cause, it would upset so many people. Scotland are in there. England. England, a good chance of winning. I mean, it's just people would go berserk, wouldn't they,

if we weren't allowed to compete in that tournament? I don't want, frankly, I want it to go ahead as well, so I don't really want that to happen. But I suppose that is an option. Anyway, yeah. I wonder whether the immigration, the border control rules will have to be changed for the duration of the World Cup.

I mean, there are quite a few people who are being denied entry to the United States. So you've been very, very critical. of Trump, and especially if you're a journalist or an influencer, who is not on his side, you know, you maybe turn back at the gates. What would happen if, you know, some members of our... I don't want Saka to be sent back. Yeah, of our squad.

Blimey. It said Trump's a great big orange belimp of an idiot. Dear Jane and Fee, I think I've been luckier with the female yoga and Pilates teachers I've had when it comes to male participants. This comes in from Beck, who ends by quoting Callie Beaton, namaste, mother, whatever. I don't know who's Callie Beaton?

I'm not currently knowing that. Okay. A fourth right Pilates teacher I had addressed the whole class requesting that men wore cycling shorts with regular running shorts over the top as she didn't want any surprises. This was delivered in such a way

to suggest that happened before and she didn't look amused. the only man who used to attend a yoga class I went too happily drew attention to himself by starting the class off by doing push-ups on his mat whilst everybody else was getting settled. He'd spend the class doing loud breathing, groaning and making

a point on congratulating the teacher when she had chosen a pose he particularly liked as if he were bestowing honours upon her. She remained professional throughout her dealings with him, she was some sort of yogic saint, but snapped just the once when he was complaining that he couldn't do the pelvic openings like everyone in the cross.

class because his pelvis was different. Oh. She politely put him straight, telling him that she had men in other classes who could do it. And my pelvis is different. And the person who was best at this pose was indeed a man. I once overheard him trying to mansplain fasting to a woman who already clearly knew what she was doing and then made it into a competition by telling her how many days he'd managed to go without food.

Well, that's just silly, isn't it? It's very silly indeed, but... He did have a funny email yesterday. I didn't have time to read it out, and I do apologize. From a woman whose husband, I think, had lost a couple of pounds over the last couple of weeks and was now giving her lots of advice

on how she might think about doing the same because he'd found a way, and he'd become an expert on nutrition. She was just at the end of her tether. She just wanted to vent to us, and look, I hear you, and actually we've got another venting email about a postal service.

Oh, yes. I mean, and I feel for this. This is a individual. Rebecca. Have you found it again? Go, go, go. I'm emailing you as to where else does one turn? Well, exactly. That's what we're here for. I just want to know I'm not alone in the UK as I just don't get regular postal deliveries. You're just repositioning. Is that more comfortable? Thank you. Yeah. We really, let me just start this again. I do apologise.

We've been having delivery problems. Second class coming now. We've been having delivery problems since we moved to Buxton. Beautiful part of the the world in Derbyshire. And I suppose over the last year or two, they have really, it's the past themselves, in not delivering. Our post sits at the sorting office for up to two weeks until they decide it's time to make a delivery. Last week I had post on Saturday the 17th, and it was like Christmas. Letters post dated the 5th of January in that bundle, and this is not unusual. This is the state of the post office. It's not good, is it? No. I'm a very. I'm

I asked my postman why there is a problem, and he said it was the privatisation of the Royal Mail, then ensued what was wrong with the whole country, and believe me, the list was long. Gosh, he sounds a bit of a bore, your postman, to be honest. I only coloured him on my walk to town to get the paper, the Times, of course, and felt quite exhausted after our chat about world politics. It's £1.70 for a first-class stamp. That is such a lot of money. And 87 pence for second.

so it's not as if we're not paying for it. I know. Do you know what, this year I kept all of my Christmas cards because there were only about eight of them because I thought actually when we come to next Christmas I'm going to need to put those up again because I think they'll probably only be four. Well, you might start getting them in the next couple of weeks you might start getting more Christmas cards.

That's true. I could have a bulk delivery. Never give up hope. Before Christmas my brother sent cards to me, my daughter in Berlin and my other daughter in London. Yes, you guessed it. Both Berlin and London, me here in Buxton by a long chalk. Rebecca has had an absolute bellyfall

of the appalling postal delivery service in Derbyshire. But the upside of it is that you didn't have to queue at a post office before Christmas. So I took my parcels that needed delivering and obviously it was a huge bundle so very generous to the post office in Dalston which is usually, I mean it has a queue, it's a massive post office but it has a queue out the door before Christmas. So I thought, okay, I can go early or another. But you could bustle back in those days.

I could bustle back in those days. And there were two people in there. On the last Saturday before Christmas, which was still a posting day, you know, nobody in there. Because there are just so many other forms of transportation, people are just getting Amazon or whatever to deliver straight to their people. And people are fed up with Royal Mail,

just never getting there on time. £1.70? It's a lot. I mean, there are only, How many people in your world would fit into the category of worth £1.70 at Christmas? It's a really good question. That's nearly 200 pence. It's laughable.

It is crazy. Right, I've been taken to task by Denise. Oh, should I read this to you in a slightly stroppy voice? It actually says Eve. Eve, do you want to read this in a slightly stroppy voice? It's addressed to you. It's about Jane's Freedom Pass. Eve looks absolutely enchilpy.

Are you sure? I don't want to take this away from you. No. Okay. Could you please put right the misinformation that Jane uses a freedom pass for her free travel around London? You get a freedom pass

when you reach state pension age. They're issued and administered by your local council and give... Look, just shuffling your papers. It's not going to... I'm so embarrassed. Disguise this criticism. They're issued and administered by your local

Council and give free bus travel throughout the UK, though limited to the issuing home country borders. Is anyone still awake at the back? The London Councils are currently reviewing their Freedom Pass as it includes train and tube travel similar to the oyster 60 plus card, but which is not available throughout the country. I suggest what Jane is using is a 60 plus oyster card. Yes, that is shush, that is underwritten by Transport for London and for which you pay an initial then annual fee. The Freedom Pass is often dropped into the podcast conversation and is inadvertently misleading to listeners who may be approaching 60 and other parts of the UK who will not be eligible for the Freedom Passed until they are at least 66 or probably older. Thank you, a long and

loyal listener. Well, thank you for pointing that out. Yes. You have been feasting on your over 60 plus oyster card discount annual fee card. It's not a freedom pass. Denise is right and I take it all back. Sorry, Denise. I do have to pay for it every year, but by golly, it's worth every year. How much do you pay for it? I think it's, I think it's 20 quid or something. I honestly can't look.

I don't look at Eve. Four decades away from it, love. I should say, you do have to supply proof that you live in London and, you know, your council tax pay and all the rest of it. So, yeah, I feel really embarrassed now. I've been properly

put on the spot. So, it's a great boon. But you do get free travel or discounted travel. No, it's completely free as long as it's after nine in the morning. So you will often, if you ever want to seek me out, I'm usually lurking at the tube station at about a minute to nine. Proper twirly behaviour, waiting for nine o'clock to come round. And then when you're 66, you'll be able to apply to East West Kensington Council

for a full Freedom Pass. And that's the one that you could bomb all around the country. Oh, yes, you won't see, nobody will see me. I'll be in Dumfries one day. Newcastle the next where else will I go Tynmouth Cardiff I mean I'll just

I'll just be everywhere yes you're not in the south-east are you no no I should be going north that's okay this one comes in from Helen and oh my goodness so an awful lot of people have very very different experiences of the tonsillitis

don't they some people it's been a very good thing some people it's been an absolutely terrible thing to have them removed isn't it wonderful how as a species we're just also different. Yeah. So Helen says, I'm writing to let you know

my experience of problematic tonsillitis after a childhood and much my adult life suffering from it. It came to a rather scary conclusion. I worry about Eve in this. Should we just gloss over the very scary conclusion? Because always you're never going to have yours taken out, are you? The more I hear, the less I think I will be ever going for it.

Okay. This is another one about a Quincy, I think. Tonsal stones. Rural whales. No, you're not. We'll get straight to the end. But Helen, thank you, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

It also contains the phrase it's an interesting experience having an obsess in your throat lanced. Oh. And we will. Helen, I really, really hear you because that's exactly what happened to me. I don't think we should repeat it out loud, actually.

It would just be our bonding secret, Helen, our bonding secret. But the end of your email is as interesting as the beginning. On another subject, found out from a close relative who's recovering from heart surgery that depression and psychological distress in cardiology patients is a well-known issue. Did you know this? No, I don't think I did. This was confirmed by another relative who's currently...

Why is he laughing? Studying medicine and... Because you haven't known anything to do it. That's true, actually. I have been... I've been very much... One pound for a step. I've been...

Very much on the back foot. Apologies. No, not at all. Not at all. Here we go. She stated that with the back... Log of Operations. They now have a permanent psychologist on the ward to support the patients. This seems like a great addition to the overall needs of the patients. But in the same week, I find myself supporting a new mum at home, who is in the extreme shock of new motherhood.

She's been told her referral to support would most likely be rejected. And Helen says, I've spent time on both gynecology and maternity wards and could honestly say a psychologist would have been a welcome addition to the women's care. Your recent talk of lying in hospitals made me realise that out of sight, out of mind, leaves many women to tackle some of the biggest changes in their lives very much alone. Helen, you're spot on. Absolutely, but where's the money going to imagine if that were suggested?

I think psychological support, and I mean, obviously it's ages since I had children, but was restricted in my case to that one question at the six-week check-up. Are you okay? How are you in yourself? Yep. And I do wonder, had I been having psychologically, mentally a really tough time, would I have been able to discuss it in that? It was all a little brisk and somewhat cursory.

Very much so, Jane. Very much so. And I just think it's a really good point. But it's all about this, you know, the kind of the false economy of these cuts. Because of course it's going to cost the NHS way more down the line and the benefit system. And everybody within your family, you know if you have a really big crisis and I mean that that's the same on the cardiology ward isn't it if you get these knit these things in the bud point people in the right direction it's it's just going to be more helpful so we're streeting our current health secretary has said that he wants

maternity care to be his number one priority so I hope that he's listening actually do you think we got little Wes as a listener I don't know no come in Wes if you're listening Annabel, we do have a very erudite and informed audience here on off air with Jane and Fee. Annabelle just says the first unreliable narrator I can think of is Marle Flanders, written of course, of course, by Daniel Defoe in of course 1722. I didn't get on with Daniel Defoe.

I remember reading Robinson Crusoe or sort of reading it when I was at uni and didn't like it at all. But I'd love that super show they showed in black and white. but it was always on at half term. Do you remember with the beautiful music and an absolutely gorgeous man playing playing Robinson Cruz? I don't remember that? I had lovely music.

I can't. Somebody will remember it. Somebody as old as me will remember it. Just a brief mention to Sophie. I was listening to tonight's episode Monday and agreed that Lorraine's new TV documentary on Norway was great, particularly as it does balance out the number of travel shows fronted by men.

I've only seen episode one, and I did enjoy it, But did anybody else notice that on the day she was filming, the weather in Norway was actually grey and drizzly. And while she gave a valiant effort in praising the amazing views, the views were actually mainly shrouded in a wet fog. To make up for that, every couple of minutes, the dock would cut to shots that were clearly filmed on another day

when there was in fact a blue sky. Did they think we wouldn't notice? Well, you did, Sophie. She also says that it's too raw for Jane to watch at the moment but a number of people have mentioned the Kate Winslet film on Netflix Goodbye June. Have you seen it? No, because I did see the trailer and I thought I'm going to pop that in a box for a different time.

Well, it's about Helen Mirren playing a sort of dying matriarch and Sophie says, I mean you're not quite right, Sophie, I don't want to watch it right at the moment, but she does say it was particularly good as were the two little boys in the film who could only have been three or four. I mean, child actors are sometimes absolutely extraordinarily good.

The only thing wrong with the film, says Sophie, was the empty NHS hospital. The corridor care and packed waiting rooms were nowhere to be seen. But then I just wondered if they run out a budget for the extras, which I suppose we've got to be brutally honest about films. Sometimes that does happen. They just haven't, they can't.

Because you do need to pay people, even if they're playing the part of people just sitting on a chair. And it would probably just be very distracting in a film if there was lots of chaos, the normal chaos of an A&E or corridor care? Yes, I don't really think we get a genuine depiction of the NHS on film. No, I don't even think in casualty.

Not really, because you can't, I mean, they can't afford to actually show the reality of, you know, sometimes you do get cared for in a corridor well over 24 hours. I mean, their plots are just mad. I haven't seen casualty in years. So it's another program that sometimes I catch the last couple of minutes of casualty. And it's like those last couple of minutes of Holly Oaks. She just left on the sofa going, what?

What? Holyoaks, have they moved it? It's been replaced by a place in the son. Yes, it has. You're right. Once again, the couple last night didn't go for it. It was a beautiful place. I would have bought it.

Very, very cheap by British standards. One of these wonderful properties. and nope, he'd done his best that fella, he'd been driven. I don't know, I mean, he'd been dashing round trying to find them something, and they're not going to go there. Yeah, it is quite strange. Do you think the initial advertisement says, are you not interested in buying a place in the sun?

Do you not have a shred of interest in buying a property on the cost of our soul? Are you picky, very unlikely to be able to make a decision on the spur of the moment, in which case, we're the programme for you? Yeah. Would you like to drink orange juice with one of our apple bowl hosts, whilst once again, dumping. upon them the knowledge, the information that you won't be buying the property they've sourced for you.

Anyway, whatever. Whatever. Just to say that Love It All Listed is back on Channel 4. That's Phil Spencer and Kirsty. You all start doing there. Would you like to... Would you like Kirsty to come and knock your walls down and create a large open space

kind of designer kitchen type thing? Or would you like to travel round in Phil's capacious Volvo and look at some other properties? I like them both. So I'm really... I'd go with either of them. I'm in the capacious vulva. Oh, are you?

Yeah, I think it's much easier than a dirty RSJ. Right. We've had a very serious... We don't have to go with that, really. We've had a very serious email from a listener who says, change my name, call me Barbara, so I'm calling you Barbara. She's written, and parts of it are very funny, and parts of it rang only too true, Barbara,

about caring for older people. She says, somebody needs to tell the truth about what it's like, when, frankly, you're much, much older parents. And let's just be honest, people are living a long, long time these days. I think we as adult children, she says, we need to say more about what it's like to care for the very, very elderly. And, I mean, let's be honest, some of it is, you know, some of it is the exact opposite of glamorous. And it can set you a challenge you perhaps weren't entirely up for. My partner suggests I do write about it, says the listener we're calling Barbara, and that I find a publisher.

but I'm not sure there's a market for long descriptions of standing in the queue at boots for advice on laxatives. Well, you know, I think you're right actually Barbara, woman we're calling Barbara, maybe somebody should write a no-holds-barred account of exactly what that's like. Well, Catherine Manix's book is about that, isn't it? Well, that's about terminal illness, isn't it?

And it's about all of the daily ins and outs and the kind of thing that you do see. Yes, I think Barbara is. alluding to the kind of sometimes the weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years, building up to that medical crisis moment. And I'm sure people would want to read it, you know, particularly if you have found yourself to be in that situation. But it's a bit like early years care, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Not everybody wants to read about it. Why would you want to read about, you know, the Poonamis and the sleepless nights of having the wee babies before your time is there?

is there. No, but all of that is kind of cutified, isn't it? Whereas, let's just be honest, there's nothing cute about the other end, the other end of life. But we're either going to do it or it's going to be done to us or for us, isn't it? So, Barbara, that's not your name. I'd read anything you wrote. You've written a very good email on subject, so maybe you should get that publisher and write about it. And very good choice of pseudonym as well. Lom de plume.

Barbara. Who, in your eyes, is now Saint Barbara. Let's wait for further developments there. I don't think she's likely to carry on with that good behaviour. We'll see. We'll see. We need to get to our big guest. We are overwhelmed with a sense of overwhelm. So how can we make it stop?

This is the huge question asked by top psychologist Claudia Hammond in her latest book, which is called Overwhelmed. And if you're thinking, oh no, how can it help to put another thing on my list? Read a book about being overwhelmed. Well, don't worry because in it she details how best to cope with everything that modern life is throwing at us. Claudia, how lovely to see you. After our last couple of guests, we do really need you as well. So thank you very much indeed. Your timing is perfect. Are we as humans simply never going to be able to cope with this modern world or are we just in the phase of struggling to adapt?

I think that's really interesting. I mean, humans are absolutely brilliant at adapting and they do adapt to changing times and again and again people do. But I do think it takes a while. And I think there is a sense that a lot of people have at the moment that there is just ever such a lot going on, whether it's in the world or in their own lives and that there is a lot to deal with. And we can learn to do that. Because you have studied so much about this subject,

do you look at other people and think, if you could just get to the place that I'm at, you'd be fine? I mean, is there an element of Claudia Hammond's got it sorted personally? I mean, I wish I had it all sorted, and I wish I always followed my own advice and always followed the research. Obviously, I don't always do that. But there are some things that I have really changed about my own life or the way I think about life, having looked at all the research on this.

And one of those is about to-do lists. You know, a lot of us, I did get very oppressed by my to-do list and the amount to-do. And feeling it's never going to be gone. And actually, we have to accept it's never going to be gone. And it is, in a way, just a tool. It's a record of what we're doing. it is true that if you get to the end of it one day, then there will be some more things on that day the next day.

And so I think we need to not feel oppressed by it. We need to see it as something that's useful for us and something that's a tool to help us to cognitively offload, if you like, to remember what it is we've got to do so that it's not hanging around in our head is another thing to stress us out. I love your advice in the book, and one piece of advice that I really welcome

was the fact that sometimes think, just don't bother getting back to people. If they really want you to do something, something, then they'll get to you somehow. Don't stress it. Just like let it fall off the edge of the table. I like that very much. I think that sometimes we can be over conscientious and, you know, I've got a whole chapter on perfectionism. And we know that one thing that is on the rise, particularly among younger people, is perfectionism. And so that, and that can come down to even things like replying to emails and thinking, oh, I must get back to someone straight away. And it's

very tempting to reply straight away because then it's kind of gone and we want it out of our heads. But actually we don't need to. And if you do reply to all your emails straight away, you do then set up an expectation of those people that, you know, this is a good person to ask because she'll get back to me straight away. So you kind of might encourage some more work to put on yourself if you if you do that. Obviously, if things are really important, you need to sort them out. But it's like that advice of when you come back from being on holiday, say, to start, don't start at the earliest emails, start near the end, because some of those things will have got resolved now because other people will have sorted them out in your absence.

Brilliant. Why should we channel our inner Oblamov? Because one of the things that he did was not to worry about anything. So he was the part of a character in a huge Russian novel. And he just didn't really do very much and didn't really worry about what he should do and what he shouldn't. And sometimes we need to rest a little more. Sometimes we need to let go of other people's pressures.

A lot of the stuff is to do with other people's pressures and people putting their standards on us or is even thinking that other people expect certain things of us and maybe they actually don't. If you ask a lot of people think, say, even as adults, that their parents are expecting them to do certain things. But actually, when you look at the research, what most parents want is for their children to be happy.

You know, sometimes they might put loads of pressure on them, but often what we want for our friends or our family is for them to be happy and possibly relax a bit. Obviously, there's quite a big parenting story around today about the Beckham's and Brooklyn Beckham's response to what he's described as a very controlled and controlling environment that he's experienced as a child. And it taps into all of our experiences with social media this, the fact that we can see. into so many other people's world and we know that they're trying to manipulate our response to them but we're still playing the game and that's quite an odd parasycial

activity, isn't it? It is and I think one of the things that does happen these days days, you know I don't put everything down to say social media but one of the things we can do these days is to compare ourselves with far more people than we used to be able to so teenagers used to be able to compare themselves say when I was a teenager

you could compare yourself with the rest of your class now you can compare yourself with millions of people who will have curated their feeds, who will have doctored their photographs and are only showing you the best bits, and that can make the rest of us feel worse about these things. And I think for any family that is in the public eye this much, then it must be so hard when even your arguments are in the public eye.

Do you think that we understand the addiction of social media and the kind of professional use of our personal life, enough? I mean, that's a good question. I think, I think, again, that is something that people are just adapting to and that people are working out, if they're using it, say, professionally, where does the professional life start and where does the personal life start? You know, where do those end and how do they separate? And of course, there are loads of, you know, influencers now whose whole job has got to be coming up with enough stuff and mining their own lives for enough stuff. And some, you know, influencers are now stopping doing it because they say that the pressure of that

is just too much because they actually need to live their lives as well as being thinking about how can I film this, how can I put it up there, what shall I do with it? Your book is so packed full of evidence and scientific research which is very helpful when you're reading through it and I know that an awful lot of people have noticed the example that I've noticed too which is the Boston Marathon and people's experience of that. Can you just talk us through what that evidence is? Yeah so in the in the Boston Marathon, there was a bombing in 2013 and a psychologist who's in California called Roxanne Cohen Silver decided to study this and she looked at how much media people were consuming in the days following it and she came up with the most extraordinary finding which was that the people who consumed six hours or

more of watching media about the marathon, which might be, have been online, even then, and, you know, or on rolling news, those people who consume six hours or more a day of it experience more acute distress than the people who were actually there and witnessed it, which seems absolutely extraordinary. But it is explained by the fact that if you're there, it's terrible and awful, obviously, but there's a beginning, a middle and an end. And at the end, somehow you get away, if you get away, or you maybe help someone else, or you witness other people, helping other people, but there is an end to it. If you just watch it and watch the coverage of it, you're constantly seeing the worst bit again and again and again. And so she has been

able to show the impact that that can have on people. And so I think we do need to be careful about how we consume our news, because it can be really overwhelming. And I'm not saying, which some people are doing, you know, some people are turning away from news completely. A Reuters Institute study last year found that 40% of people were saying that they sometimes are often deliberately just avoided the news because it was just, you know, it is just too grim and overwhelmed them too much. I'm not suggesting we do that, but I think we need to think about how we consume it, you know, choose somewhere that it's trustworthy to get it from, but also choose the times of day to do it. And do you need to have alerts on your phone all day, telling

you a moment when some breaking news happens. You know, if you're working as a journalist or a politician, you know, you two need to keep up with what's happening in the news all the time. But a lot of people don't. A lot of us don't. And it's fine if we wait a few hours to find that out so that we're not constantly getting told, oh, here's some more bad news and here's some more bad news. It's also about being able to see the bad news, isn't it? The visual image is incredibly striking. And that does stay with you, doesn't it? You can't see things. Yeah, it's very, very, hard to unsee things you can't erase that and interestingly Roxanne Cohen Silver who did this research she now always listens to news on radio or audio you know she doesn't watch the videos of it

and of course sometimes those will just come up on your social media feeds but the more you watch them the more they'll come up and you know if you watch other things what i now get is a lot of gardening videos which great excellent one of our massive bug bears and we talk about this on the podcast quite lot is toxic positivity. Everything is a positive, turn a negative into a positive. I'm sorry, I don't know why I've affected an American accent there, but tell us your thoughts about toxic positivity. Yeah, so toxic positivity can be, it can be something other people aim at us where they say, oh, it's going to be fine all the time. And, you know, sometimes, you know, people can be in really serious situations like, you know, they've got, they've got cancer and their friends want it to be

okay. So they say, oh, I'm sure it'll be fine and I'm sure where you get these tests, it'll be better. And that's not always what you want to hear because you're actually feeling really scared on what might be nice is somebody saying, yeah, this must be really scary and, you know, this must be really difficult. And we can also aim toxic positivity at ourselves, which is, you know, feeling guilty about not feeling okay and sort of thinking, oh, well, I've got it. You know, how can I complain about anything there are people in the world in the middle of war zones where it's much worse for them? And then making yourself even feel bad about feeling bad. There is a scale called the emotional invalidation scale where you can you can measure

how much you find that happens. So it's got statements like, you know, when I share how I feel others want me to get over it or accept it and move on. And some people feel that very strongly and find that they may have many people in their lives who try to invalidate their emotions. And so there, I think it's a question of being really careful not to do that to other people. You know, we want to cheer people up, but you have to be careful how you do it. You also talk about imposter syndrome. David Bowie had it. Michelle Obama has it. Maya Angelou too. I mean, these are all people who you just assume have borne confidence within them. Yeah, and they really haven't. You know, it really is the case that they all felt they didn't know what they were doing and, you know,

lots of us, you know, might feel we don't know what we're doing and be afraid to be found out. And of course, people always think that, oh, well, they're the fake impostors because they didn't get found out and they're brilliant and I'm the real imposter and will get found out but it's actually very very common and you know a lot of people are busking it and one of the solutions researchers found there is to tell other people about your concerns about the fact that you may not know what you're doing in your job say but not necessarily say your exact colleagues doing the same job and not necessarily say if you're a student students on the same course research has found that actually if you tell other people who do something slightly different

what you're feeling that can make a real difference to people. But there have even been studies showing that just knowing that other people often feel this too can make people feel a little bit better. Fantastic question from one of our listeners. What time of day is best for the body and mind to consume the news? Oh, that's such a good question. And it will vary for different people.

So some people just feel they can't start the day without a good breakfast show with news. and feel they need that at the start of the day. Others will find that it's just too depressing a start to the day, and actually makes them feel down at the beginning of the day and would rather wait till the end. So I think it is a question of waiting to, of looking to find out. And maybe you don't want to listen to the news immediately before you go to sleep,

if that's what you're going to think about. And maybe you'd like to listen to something nicer as you go to sleep, if you're, say, listening to the radio as you go to sleep. I don't know where that put. I mean, I listen first thing in the morning, last thing at night and all day. Yeah, but it's kind of your job to it. And I'm one of the calmer people in my own orbit. Well, you and I are both quite calm, aren't we?

But do you think there's something in the fact that we have a reason to do it? Because I sometimes think we're given an easier ride because we're in a position to challenge things and people who are annoying us. Whereas actually that feeling of impotence, if you are just having all of this stuff coming at you, I think would be very difficult. Yeah, you're in the less helpless position, if you like, yeah, because you get to challenge people on these. things and to try to make sense of it and to be actively there making sense of it. And also, whenever you've got a reason to do something professionally, it makes it a bit easier than just dealing with that by yourself. This is a good point from Chris who says, I'm terminally ill and even close friends forget to choose their words carefully. Please let people know that are

you well is really upsetting because I'm not. Please tell people to say, how are you doing or what are you up to, that is much more positive. Yeah, and it can be really hard for people to answer those questions again and again. And sometimes people will say, in a well-meaning way, they might say to somebody who is very ill, and I'm sorry to hear that. And they may say to somebody who's ill, oh, but you look really good. You look really well today, which really doesn't help either. And I think people think, oh, that's kind because I'm saying they look, that they look

okay today and that that's nice, but actually that can go down badly. There's some interesting bits in the book about worry. And you actually say that one thing you could do is set up. aside time in your day to worry. Now, how does that work? Yeah, this has been, again, I base everything on the best evidence and a Dutch psychologist called Ad Kirchhoff did this research. So you set aside 10 minutes a day where you're going to worry and you sit at the kitchen table, say, and you worry. And you can, you know, you could have a piece of paper and write down all the things you're worrying about. And that doesn't sound much fun, that 10 minutes and that isn't.

But the whole purpose is that then in the rest of the day, when you find yourself worrying about this thing that's nagging at you, but that you maybe can't do anything about at the moment, then you think, no, I'm not going to worry about that now because I'm saving that for my worry time later on. And it has been shown to be really effective, even with people with very, very serious, very negative ruminations, as well as people at the more everyday end of worry, if you think. You've done a lot of work on kindness, Claudia, and I wonder whether you think that kindness will come back into fashion. It's not in fashion at the moment. And if you look at the strong men around the world. They are not signed up members of the Be Kind Brigade, are they?

No, I think kindness is not in fashion at the moment in the wider world and in a way in the world we see on the news, but there is still loads of individual kindness going on. And if you deliberately try and look out for that, you know, I recommend people become a kindness twitcher, if you like, because in some research at Sussex University that I was part of, we found that those people who were able to spot kindness around them had higher levels of well-being. And you can just watch for it. You know, now, once you start watching, you can't stop. I kept a kindness diary for a while of things I saw, which was things like people helping people with buggies up the steps of the tube and people helping people handing things back to people in the street that they dropped. And actually,

once you start to look out for it, there is loads. And I think that can, that can counter some of the unkindness we see, because it is still the case that despite some of the people in charge of countries in the world that most people are trying their best most of the time. Claudia, it's a fantastic book. Thank you very much indeed for coming in to talk to us about it. Claudia Hammond's book is called Overwhelmed and it's available now and I would hardly recommend it. You can dip in and out of it. It doesn't feel onerous to read at all and I just don't think as humans we have been built for this time, Jane. Well, I can't imagine that we have been. Otherwise we wouldn't all be struggling.

would we? Yeah. We'd be sailing through it. It's like a kind of, no, I'm not going to compare it to living in wartime. But we are asking a lot of ourselves, aren't we? And clearly, we're being found wanting. But that's because it's not natural and it's not necessary,

and we should be able to check out of it all. Yeah, and we are being manipulated by some very, very clever people who are making astonishing amounts of money that buys them the freedom from their own world they've created. I don't like that. No. None of us do. Claudia Hammond.

The book is called Just Overwhelmed. Just Overwhelmed. Not just overwhelmed. It's not called Just Overwhelmed. No, it's called Overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. That's the name of the book. We're Jane and Feet at Times, Not Radio.

Save us from ourselves. Yes, just tomorrow. Just ask me some questions I can answer. Once you don't burn. Goodbye. Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

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