Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Please avoid space if you've got a vagina! (with Sara Cox and Clare Hamilton)

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Jane and Fi have something to get off their collective podcast breasts, and amid that, there's also chat about space travel, rumours of who will be the next Archbishop, advice on Mother’s Day, and more twin towns. Please excuse the brief funny noise in this episode — the aliens have finally landed. Plus, broadcaster Sara Cox and her best friend Clare Hamilton discuss their podcast 'The Teencommandments'. The next book club episode is coming this Friday. The book is 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Absolutely awful to age. I'm sure we all acknowledge that. And we are fighting... I think it's immoral, Jane. Absolutely immoral. It's charming in men, regrettable in women. Should be illegal. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Welcome. Last one of the week. Oh, you're writing, aren't you?

It's a rubbish production again. Second to last one of the week. It's book club tomorrow, everybody. The bonus bundle of literary. Actually, we've already recorded it, and it's a very, I think, a very informative edition. And lots of you took the time to read

Eight Months on Gaza Street, so you can hear everybody's thoughts on a Friday bonus literary special of our podcast book club tomorrow. Well done. Thank you. That was incredible. It's almost like you'd spent time last night with ex-colleagues from Radio 4. We both. Coming up.

We both. I don't think it's, it's not a secret is it that lots of people at the BBC have got voluntary redundancy. Lots of people are leaving. There are many many many leaving parties to attend and we both went to different ones last night. But within about a quarter of a mile of each other because they don't stray very far do they? So I was within about 300 meters of the front door of the house that is forever broadcasting. I can't go in anymore, obviously we're both banned.

But it was nice. I've still got a drawer full of stuff there Jane, but I'll never get it back. You'll never get it back. I've still got a drawer full of their stuff, which they're never going to get back. I'm telling you now. But it was lovely to reconnect with the vast majority of people who were at the do. And you would say the same. Not everyone. No. Everyone I spoke to, it was lovely to speak to them.

Yes, I had exactly the same experience. Lots of lovely people there, honestly. But it is that time, isn't it? I've got another Leaving Do next week as well, so they just keep on coming. They do quite a good redundancy package, don't they? Let's just be honest. Well, if you're staff but... Oh yes, which we weren't. No, for freelancers they just take your

lanyard back. Oh no complaints, we both made unbelievable programmes whilst we were at the BBC that would never have been made in the commercial sector. Exactly and friends. And friends. And partners. And never mind them. Less success there. But the friends are brilliant and it was lovely to see. And you seem to have better catering. The one I went to, which was for a lovely woman who worked for many years on Woman's Hour, it was tortilla chips and that was it. Gosh. A bit of popcorn I saw but nothing else. Not even a dip? No dips. There was something behind the bar, there was money behind the bar so I had half a lager. Yeah. I don't know where I am today. I had a pint of alcohol-free stout and I have never drunk stout in my life. What a treacly

wonderful concoction that is. Was that the Guinness? Because they say that the alcohol-free Guinness is amazing. So it wasn't the Guinness, no, it was something else. But I would never order the alcohol version of that and I don't know why because it was a fantastic drink. But I honest to God think, I'm 56 now, I've never had a pint of something before. I've never ever ever ordered Do you know what? In a pub a pint of beer. I've always had a lady half Exactly. I only on one occasion had a pint and actually it was in the company of one of your husbands So there we are that's life and that's why we all enjoy being in it

So let's move on to other topics. Oh no, let's stay on that because that is golden. It really wasn't. It was during the World Cup. Was it at the football tournament? It was at the World Cup in 1998. And I'm afraid I am like you. I don't have the capacity for a pint of liquid. How do these blokes, and it is largely men, drink pints of beer? I mean, where does it all go in their system? Well they're bigger than us, most men are bigger than us, but I know what you mean.

I look at a pint and I'm just fearful of my journey home. I just think you know the 38 bus sometimes it stops at absolutely nothing for about eight minutes at the Angel and I just think there are no public conveniences in the world anymore and that's going to get me into trouble. But I did have most of a pint last night and actually I was fine. Jolly well done for you. Right, this is fascinating. You've got something fantastic to bring to the group's attention from the mail. We brought some clippings today. And I've got something yesterday from The Times which was quite an interesting piece

about Julio Iglesias. Would you like to try that pronunciation? Because your Spanish tones are delightful. Julio Iglesias. Yeah, there we go. So this was a piece suggesting that Gen Z are really into Julio. Well, it's news to me. And he's something of a kind of a new hero. He's having a second coming and you're allowed to laugh at that when I read you this little bit. So he was a well-known and this is interesting as well Jane isn't it, he was renowned for his love-making capacity in a way that if he was a woman you would not be celebrated. I'll just read you the following passage. Was it the quality of his lovemaking or the quantity of his partners? By the sounds of it both. Although an estimated 3,000 women have passed through his life or at least his bed,

according to his former manager, and to his sexually what Piero, and this is the guy who's written an autobiography of him, delicately calls a pioneer of fusion. Oh my goodness. What's that? He was heartbroken when his marriage to Presley ended. Well, I mean, you don't get to have both, mate. An estimated 3,000 women have passed through his life, or at least his bed. A pioneer of fusion. I don't, I honestly, I associate fusion with restaurants in your part of London. So what does that mean when it comes to lady love? I've got

no idea because like you, I'm imagining some, you know, very odd combination of Japanese and Italian food, but that's obviously not what he was up to. So did he perhaps encompass noodles? Maybe he did. Into the bedchamber. With a pie at the same time. Noodles in a pie. Other family problems emerged when his son, Enrique, produced his first record without forewarning him which he regarded as a treasonous act. Julio sounds a bit of a bellend. Anyway, wish him well. Is he still alive, is he? No, I don't think he is. Hang on a minute. Well, we need to establish this. We can be really rude about him if he's anyone. As we say, no longer with us.

If he is still with us, he must be exhausted. Yeah, some legendary lovers really do earn that lie down. Yeah, or at least on a very, very long course of antibiotics. He's alive. He's alive. He's 81. Legendary lovers really do earn that lie down. Yep, or at least on a very, very long course of antibiotics. He's alive. He's alive. Oh, he's 81. 81.

Okay, well, many, many healthy years to come. Julio is still fusioning away for all he's worth. Right, okay, the Daily Mail is often beyond parody, but today, I have to say, it has excelled itself. Let me just bring to you, we know one of the great perils that impacts womanhood, ageing. Something we guard against furiously and it's absolutely awful to age. I'm sure we all acknowledge that and we are fighting. I think it's immoral Jane, absolutely immoral. It's charming in men, regrettable in women, should be illegal.

But today, taking up two pages of the Daily Mail, an article, and they've written this and they must know how idiotic it is, basically suggesting that the incredibly courageous and brilliantly clever and gifted astronaut, Sonny Williams, has slightly let herself go in space. Please realise how moronic this is. But it does act as a warning that ladies know your limits. Do not go into space. Can you please just read some of these subheadings because it is a two-page spread. There are three pictures of her before, during and after. She actually, I think, she looks immensely

happy in the after and that brings youth to her face. She looks incredible in the after. She's still got her space helmet on but I think she's just being helped out of the capsule and into, well they need to be in a wheelchair don't they because they've been, their muscles have wasted. They've just become a bit floppy. Just the headline is if astronaut Sunny looks like she's aged a decade after spending 288 days in space, that's probably because Probably because she has! Enough stress to turn hair grey. The tricky chicken legs phenomenon. Gaunt from the zero-gravity diet. Now this leg, gaunt is something we must avoid.

You can't be fat, but you must on no account appear to be gaunt in public. Men don't like it. And what's more, the Daily Mail doesn't like it either. Right, why dehydration is a massive problem. How being in orbit affects your skin. Oh, it's ridiculous. And the thing is that, you know, FHM or whatever they they would be so happy to run a piece saying how much more butch butchers become since being in space and that's not fair it's just not fair. This is why we weren't going to space, it says here skin rashes are also frequently reported during six month ISS missions possibly

due to irritants or allergens in the space station. But if William's skin is thinner and more damaged, it is at least extremely soft. Oh well that is a relief. I don't know if there is a Mr Williams, but let's hope he's taking full advantage of her slightly softer skin since, I mean, who's been doing all his laundry while she's been away? I don't know. Your heart goes out to him. I hope he's all right. I bet their neighbours have been dropping off casseroles and things for him because she was only supposed to be away for a week and selfishly she went and spent nine months there.

Silly woman. But also Donald Trump could not help himself but say I hope they like each other. I wonder whether they've loved each other. And it's just like, oh, would you just get a grip of yourself, man? We know what you're insinuating. Don't laugh at that. But just the notion that a man and a woman couldn't possibly be in space together as colleagues, professional colleagues.

It's because he doesn't understand. No, no. Anyway, right, we both feel better for getting all that off our Absolutely fantastic. Collective podcast bosom. Yeah, many happy returns to Julio. Shall we try and book him as a guest? Because there's a story there, isn't there, even?

I'm sure he'd be delighted to tell us. Actually, no, please don't, because what else would he want from us? Right. Oh, just before I forget. Yeah, it's hard to forget, I have seen Adolescence. You're going to watch it at the weekend, aren't you? But I watched it one episode at a time. I'm not just saying this, I couldn't do more. So don't worry if you can't finish all four over the weekend is all I'll say.

But I would really welcome, we've had emails already saying, can we talk about it? So if you've seen it or you're planning to see it, do let us know what you think. Jane and Fee at Times. Radio. I really, I was kind of knocked out by the final episode, but all of it is brilliant. Yeah, let's discuss next week and apologies for being tardy on watching it. We're currently watching Married at First Sight Australia. Yes, well it might be a safer bet in many ways. Well we ration ourselves to just one episode a night because otherwise it's just too much, but I think it would definitely tip me over the edge to watch MAPHS and to then watch Adolescents, because there is so much to discuss with MAPHS as well. Deborah is a hat maker from Northamptonshire. I send a postcard every week to a selection of friends and relatives, 11 of them, so it's not a cheap hobby.

You're telling me that's 20 quid, isn't it? At least. It's a nice way of staying in touch, quicker than writing a letter and better than a phone call, both for people who are busy and people who are losing their hearing. Takes me less than an hour, brightens the day of people I love and lets them know I'm thinking of them. Isn't that a very, very nice thing to do? I was really touched by that and I think it's a great thing to do. I particularly, just, it's, I don't know, there's something about getting something in the post that is still rather lovely and I wish more people did it. So I mentioned months ago that my youngest was going off travelling. There's something that, there seems to be something about South Southeast Asia that means that some of the more fortunate members of middle

class British society like to go there if they are on a gap year or after university so she's gone. The other day I did speak to her and which was lovely and she said oh I went to a post office and I nearly sent you a postcard. I said no that's kind of her but it's not enough. The thought was there. But I would really love a postcard. It's great to keep in touch on Insta and everything else but a postcard would really be brilliant and her grandparents would really love a postcard. So she won't be listening but if anyone knows her get her to actually go through with that and send a postcard. And send lots of postcards because it'll be much cheaper to send them from Thailand than it would be to, as Deborah has found, send them from Northamptonshire.

Deborah, you go on to make some very pertinent points to lots of things that we're talking about. She says, I was working part-time when I had our children, so I had no maternity leave entitlement. My husband had more time off than I did when our eldest was born in 1997, but I did manage about a month after the birth of the younger two. I'm glad that mothers today have a better deal and I'm only a tiny bit envious. People would often stop to chat when I was out walking with number one daughter in the pram. Enjoy it while she's little, they advised. Just wait until she's insert age. That's when the problems really start. The ages range from 3 to 34, so I didn't

consider this to be passive aggressive, rather an indicator that parenting would go on for a lot longer than I'd envisage. And Deborah goes on to say, I accept that in rare cases sex work may be empowering, one of our other topics over the last week or so, but as far as I know it doesn't appear in the careers computer programme which teenagers do at school and I doubt any parent would be happy putting, And Jocasta's career in sex work has really taken off this year in the Christmas round robin. Maybe society needs to change how it views sex work or maybe society needs to change how it views women and girls. We are not a commodity. All of the best.

It's a very succinct email that encapsulates many themes. But I really love the postcards idea. More people should do it. Well, I should do it and I don't. Yeah, get on with it. Thank you. Vanessa says, I'm writing to ask you and your listeners for some ideas about how to navigate Mother's Day for the first time without my mum. I'm really sorry to hear about this, Vanessa, and I'm sure Fee also extends her sympathies to you but she goes on to say that she lost her beautiful mum unexpectedly last September and I am still trying to process that she's gone.

I'm not a mother myself so without her I do feel slightly adrift. Mother's Day is going to be a challenge as I would normally have spent it with her as would the rest of the family. I have got two siblings, they're married and have children so they will be with their respective families this year but my dad's other sibling who is unmarried and me, we need to navigate the day somehow. We don't feel we can go out as elsewhere we'll be full of families celebrating the day and I'm worried this will prove too much for us. Oh dear, I've even stood in front of a rack of Mother's Day cards and chose the card I would have bought her. I'm so sorry.

That's, it's pretty brutal actually, I would imagine, to navigate Mother's Day without your mum. And it's interesting now that a lot of companies will ask you, they'll email to say, would you like to opt out of you know all the marketing emails you get around Mother's Day from florists and people like that and I really understand why they do and I'm glad they do because I imagine for people in Vanessa's position it's a real gut punch to suddenly get an email saying don't forget it's Mother's Day from whether it's a chocolate

supplier or whoever it might be so we'll put that out to the group Vanessa and hopefully some people will have ideas. It's March 30th in the UK, Mother's Day this year isn't it, which is a week's time, a week on Sunday. Yeah, I think it's a really really tough one and I know that Marks and Spencer's does exactly that doesn't it? Oh yes, it does. And our lovely friend Steph at Don't Buy Her Flowers, she very carefully asks people which particular events have you subscribed to her newsletter you'd rather not be hearing about and it's a very welcome, thoughtful touch. I would just say on Father's Day it's exactly the

same and personal experience isn't always the best guide, but I did find, I now find a strange pleasure in celebrating Father's Day, but I'm a long, long way down the line from losing my dad, but in those first couple of years, it was so painful. And because, you know, people would happily recount to you, and of course they should, you know, the lovely things that the kids had done for Father's Day,, you know, the lunches that they were going to Father's Day. I find that social media blitz over those weekends just incredibly difficult. And I know some people do find immense comfort in using that to post up pictures of their mums or their dads and just say, you know, this is the person I would be celebrating.

So I'd say absolutely go for that if that's going to make you happy because so many people will come back and say, I absolutely share your pain or what a great bloke or what a great woman she was, he was, and that can be incredibly helpful. So I think it inevitably does get easier but those first couple of years, I think, are really, really miserable.

And it's a weird thing in adult life, your parents of course it doesn't have the same connotations losing your parents when you're very very young but the pain is still exactly the same and quite often you're coping with being a parent yourself which is quite a topsy-turvy thing to have in your locker so we send real love and genuine thoughts and lots of other people will have terrific advice. I'm sure they will. And Vanessa, I appreciate that you don't want to be out in a pub with everybody else, with their mum, but I wonder whether you might be able to, if you can,

take a picnic or something to one of your mum's favourite places. That's a good idea. Or just sit on a bench or something, be together and absolutely talk about her. And put up a big picture of her. Wherever you go that day, have a photograph of her so she is with you because of course she'd want to be, that's the thing isn't it? They just wouldn't want you to be sad. So yes, shall we move on to just a little bit of twinning? There's been a strange noise entering the studio that young Evelyn has gone to investigate.

She's back now. Have we been invaded by aliens? What happened? Have we? But they're leaving now. They're leaving now. I hope they haven't aged while they've been here. Aliens would never age. Well, I suppose they probably wouldn't, wouldn't they? No, they've got three eyes, so they're always fine.

Dear Jane and Fee, thought you might enjoy this town twinning. Dull is in Perthshire. And Lizzie has taken a picture of the Welcome to Dull in Perthshire sign. It is paired with – and you've really got to hand it to the local council – it's paired with Boring in Oregon. That's a genius. Absolute genius. We would love to reach out to Boring in Oregon. If you are there, please do let us know what it's like. Somebody, one of our glorious international listeners must live somewhere near Boring

in Oregon. Yeah, they must, or they've been through it. Darl, have you been to New Scotland? Have you been to Darl? No, I think I've driven past Darl and Perthshire, but you know, Perthshire is more the borders. We're a little bit highland orientated. I see, please. I think we've, we're guarding against accents. Caroline is one of many to want to join in a conversation about redheads. Hello Finn, Jane, long time listener, first time emailer. On redheads I was adopted and my adoptive mum is also a redhead and on the adoption request forms she told me

that there was a question along the lines of do you mind a redhead in the same section as race and religion? Did you know that? Well do you know I didn't want to believe it but it happened to a colleague, one of my old BBC colleagues when I was in local radio, he and his partner went to adopt a baby and they were indeed, or at least he definitely reported in the office that he had indeed been asked that question, which is incredible isn't it? Yes. Absolutely incredible. So what is that, what is that saying? Is it acknowledging the fact that redheads have been kind of singled out through time? Well I think we know they have. In fact we've had a number of emails who say you know it was brutal.

The treatment meted out to people with a particular shade of hair did seem to be really over the top, cruel and nasty. Yeah. For far too long. And it seems so illogical to us doesn't it? Well, rightly so because it is. I mean my nickname at school was Titch but no, but I didn't mind it because you know I was. And we did have some redheaded girls, I don't think, I don't remember any outright cruelty towards them but then they might be able to tell me that in fact they did actually put up with a lot, I don't know. Yeah. Caroline goes on to say, of course she said no and it meant that growing up we had constant comments, oh don't you look like your mum, which was bonkers, I was adopted. So although my mum opted in for a redhead,

it wasn't always seen as a desirable. Mum has beautiful pale ginger hair now and I've gone through phases of going redder and blonder, foils included, photo attached. Well your hair colour now Caroline is really, really beautiful. And that's the thing isn't it? I think redheads often have a beauty about their colouring that has been truly recognised in art and truly celebrated, so doubly bizarre that out on the street, you know, it's still something that you would be mocked for. So all hail to you, Caroline. You're standing in front of some rather lovely kind of artwork there. Is she out in her foils? No, she's not out and about in her foils. No, but I can't quite see what the artwork is. If it's your own, well done,

you're very talented. Now this is from Mel. It's hard won, she says, the entry into the cool Redheads club. We all have, and this is what really upsets me, we all have the same shared trauma of 15 years plus of teasing, taunting and bullying. Even through the bullying, I never wanted to change my hair colour. Somehow I remained proud of it. Even naively telling my bullies, I'm not Ginger, I'm Strawberry Blonde. Let me confirm to any younger listeners that this is not a good idea. The taunts just gain more syllables.

On one particularly memorable occasion, a lad from school followed me most of the way home literally chanting Strawberry Blonde behind me the whole way. Another time years later I was mocked simply for getting on a train. A teenage boy I didn't know saw me, jumped up, pointed at me and just shouted ginger from the other side of the busy carriage. All his mates laughed, shouted too and made gestures at me for the rest of the journey. When they got off they threw an orange highlighter at me. No adults did anything." God! I mean I'm just so sorry. She goes on to say, when you come out of the other side of this ordeal in your

20s when it becomes cool and everyone is dyeing their hair red, you have a sense of being the OG, the one who was a redhead before it was cool, the one who's been through the trauma. You've earned the right to smile when people say, I wish I had hair like yours. In hair salons, I even had colourists come and study my hair so they could replicate the effect. But it turns out this is short lived. I was bullied for longer than the glory years lasted. Now my hairdresser attempts to recreate the strawberry blonde hue but it just looks a bit fake and fades too fast. Mel, thank you for that brilliant email and I'm just so sorry you had a really horrible time in your adolescence. I just want to apologize on behalf of all the

morons who were so unpleasant to you. Well it carries on into adult life as Brony tells us, jumping into the redhead conversation. I'm a proud redhead, couldn't imagine being anything else, not to brag, but I'm pretty rare. I'm one of the only 0.17% of the global population who's got red hair with blue eyes. Gosh. Beautiful. My mum would never let me put a drop of hair dye near my head for fear of it damaging my natural colour, but alas, around the time I turned 20 to 21 I started to lose the vibrancy

and the lovely red pigmentation in my hair which had become more of a muted strawberry blonde. To appease my mum and get my red back, Auburn Henna was approved for use as it was deemed in her opinion as a natural dye at the time, so for the past 15 years plus I've been routinely using it. Not going to sugar coat it, using henna is a timely and messy commitment, but it gives me the colour I once had and fades gorgeously. Whilst I couldn't imagine life with a different hair colour, there are downsides to being

a redhead, those kids in the playground, to then white van men shouting ginger at you in the street. But I will say the worst is when people want to know, do the carpets match the drapes? About 12 years ago I was on a date with a man and thought it was going well. We did the courteous text when we both got home. The text bounce were going well until he asked me about the colour of my lady garden. If he'd played his cards right, he might have found out later along the line, but this was a hard no from me. One thing I'd love to know if there are any other redheads out there who struggle to wear wool jumpers. Here's a question.

Oh. They look beautiful and last forever, but they make my skin so itchy and inflamed. I've also been recommended in the past from those of the redhead clan to inform a necetus that you do have the ginger gene and may need a higher level of anaesthetic as we have a higher pain threshold although I haven't been in a situation to try this yet. Love the podcast, regional accents and giggles. That's from Brony. So two really good questions there. Is anybody else got itchy skin that they think is just about the colour of their hair? And we definitely need to hear from an anaesthetist about whether or not the ginger gene carries something with it.

Gosh, I mean, anaesthesia needs to be... Well, isn't it... They look at you... So how much you weigh, isn't it, how much anesthetic you get. Well obviously neither of us carry out surgery at the moment. Yes, not something that you should ever try as an amateur. Although we're both very keen to start our mobile vasectomy service with no training. The queue will be long and the feedback bad. Yes, exactly. Oh dear.

Now we often, I really, what I love, I love everything about our listeners and some of the emails we've had actually just over the last couple of days have just been tremendous but I really love the fact that you're very honest about your lives and this email from the woman who'd moved to France, have you read it? I just think it's nailed on brilliant, isn't it? It really is, it really, really is, so you go for it. Well she's, she always wanted to, in short, this is somebody who always wanted to live in France and fair play to the woman, she's done it and I have huge respect for that.

But she says, I live in a rural area in France and have done for a couple of years. It is not the retirees' iddle so beloved of TV. I came with very little money as a post-Brexit entrant and I found it stressful. The endless shows, online magazines and blogs don't really address any of the potential or very real problems. I fully acknowledged it's my choice to move here but I wasn't prepared for the difficulties. Being on my own, doing everything good, bad and all things bureaucratic is hard in a new place. I have to be self-employed for my visa, which has meant endless bureaucracy and different websites. I work online, earn very little and that impacts my annual visa application. The isolation can be crippling

and while I speak some French and do make an effort, it's still difficult to connect on any deeper level at the moment. People have been politely welcoming but as a single working woman I am an anomaly. I'm not the typical retired expat and because of Brexit it's almost impossible for me to be employed. I've got no desire to return to the UK so I'm going to persevere. And it's this bit I particularly appreciate. She says I am currently at Monta Ban station. Do you think that's right? Probably. Monta Ban. It's spelled M-O-N-T-A-U. It must be Monta Ban station. En route for Béziers. Béziers. to see if it's possible that I could move on there.

She goes on to say there are eight of us on the long platform, a sweet cherry vapour man wafting my way, a young homeless man next to me like a child, he has a scooter and a dog and a few others, it's very quiet, the plasticoped rubbish bags, noisily flapping like tethered geese and a slow moving diesel workhorse far across the platform. This is not intended as a moan. I take full responsibility for my choices." Well, I've already said it. I'm going to say it again. I think you're brave. You thought you would like to live in France. You're giving it a go and I think that's brilliant. It is, it is. And the gap between expectation and reality is the stuff that makes life, isn't it? And that gap at the moment just sounds a little bit too wide.

I admire you enormously for kind of keeping your faith really, because it's an isolating experience anyway, isn't it, to find yourself in your middle years on your own, and to not have the ease of being able to strike up a conversation, and not being part of a community, those are two enormous hurdles. So we'd love some thoughts and advice from other people who might have taken the same route, whether or not you decided to stay in that place. Yeah. But I tell you what, our correspondent has got the most beautiful lyrical way of describing the world.

Well that's what I'm going to do. I hope you're writing a book or keeping a diary. Yes, I do hope so too. Because I would read it. I think it would be really interesting. And I think, you know, we're full of blether, aren't we, in the sort of Instagram age about pursuing your dream. It doesn't necessarily mean that when you do pursue it, it'll be all that easy, or it will all just, in a dream-like fantasy, all fit into place. Unfortunately, as we all know,

by the time you stack it to my age, you certainly know it's not as simple as that. But also, Jane, the days are long. They can be very long, yeah. So, you know, the prettiest picture scenes that you see increasingly of, you know, the sunsets or the beautiful cheese in the market or whatever, it's a tiny nanosecond. You can only buy cheese for about 10 minutes, can't you? A very, very long day if you're on your own. So, yes, more from our correspondent. And as Jane says, I hope you're really writing it down

because it would be a brilliant thing to read, you know, whether or not there's a unicorn lurking at the end of the rainbow. It would be, it is obviously a slightly difficult but interesting experience. I just know what Bezier, how did you pronounce it? Bezier. Is like.

I think it's quite cosmopolitan, isn't it? I'm looking to Eve here, not you. I'm sorry, that's very rude of me. It's on the south coast of Ireland. Actually I'm not even going to go there with geography. I've read cosmopolitan. It's probably on the north coast of Ireland. Dear Jane and Fee, Basingstoke is twinned with the lovely Normandy town of Alen- Alençon. We realised this as we entered the town along the delightfully monochord and wonderfully romantic avenue to Basingstoke. It just doesn't work, does it? Basingstoke has returned the favour with Alençon Link. Happy days, Martin from Wimbledon. That's great. More twinning please. More twinning. I know people, yes, yes Eve.

We've had enough. You've got to hurry up. Okay well I just want to speak up for hard-boiled eggs. As regular listeners will know, I've been bigging up hard-boiled eggs as a source of protein. Very sexy hard-boiled eggs. Nobody has ever noticed the egg before but well no, I'm giving it the publicity it has craved for years. Ginny says I know I already emailed on the topic of boiled eggs and their merits thank you Ginny I appreciate your support but I can't resist sharing the joy in Switzerland as Easter approaches. People might not know but there are coloured hard-boiled eggs everywhere even adorning tables in cafes. If anybody out there needs a

little bit of cheering up, just pop to Switzerland and smile. There are times to discuss deep serious topics and times to just smile at coloured hard-boiled eggs. And Ginny has included a lovely photograph of a coffee. It's very inviting, the coffee. I think I can see a pastry or something on the side of the coffee mug cup, rather. And in think I can see a pastry or something on the side of the coffee mug, cup rather. And in the background there is a little tray of beautifully coloured hard-boiled eggs. There's something, I do like Easter. I'm not a person of faith, but there's something about Easter and renewal and eggs and chocolate

that just does gladden the heart slightly. It's less bother than Christmas, isn't it? And it's also, you don't have to have your family around. It's optional. Very quick one from Sandy down here in France. She's got a couple of recommendations for a podcast. Brydon and, that's Rob Brydon, Talking to People. He's a brilliant interviewer. He recently spoke to Bridget Christie and Jason Isaacs. Both episodes were fantastic. She has a question for you. Was Jane really a TV critic for the Radio Times? It amazes me how many programs she claims not to know this week it was Dragon's Den no I know it I just don't want to watch it

been on for years yet she didn't seem to know the concept but she goes on to say assume you've had plenty of correspondence already regarding adolescence and was hoping to get your thoughts on it so we absolutely will be doing that next week loved the interview yesterday with Phyllida Lloyd. Mamma Mia has been a staple in our house for many years. My now teenage daughters never questioned the storyline but as my eldest daughter began to understand it she would make little comments, the scene where the three ladies are messing with the screwdriver for example and start to laugh. And Sandy says,

and actually I think both Jane and I are grateful that a couple of people have said this, that they enjoyed the letters in the lady segment because we felt a bit bad afterwards because we don't want to laugh at people. We're trying to find the comedy in life and I think sometimes that's a very, that sounds like a bit of an excuse but we are we are not trying to take the piss out of people but it is just sometimes the stuff in there that just genuinely really does make us laugh. The people who put those ads in have got great faith in humanity and I say big them up but please if you do go into space remember well you shouldn't really if you've if you've got a vagina do avoid it because it might age you.

Right just briefly is people are asking isee in the running to be the new Archbishop of Canterbury? Well, with her assessment of Easter as, quote, less bother than Christmas, I suspect she might not be. But anyway, someone's got to do it. Someone's got to do that job. And there's been no announcement deafening silence. Details at phys.ca. Broadcasting legend Sarah Cox and her very old friend Claire Hamilton met 32 years ago in South Korea on a modelling job and they've been best friends ever since. They now have five kids between them ranging from 15 to 20. Well, they have their kids with their husbands, but you know what I mean. In real life, they've often got together to shoot the breeze about wrangling their teens so they decided to turn that

into a podcast called the Teen Commandments, it's a great name. Now prepare yourself for quite the ride on the Honesty roller coaster, each episode is packed. Look there's a lot to talk about and we've discovered that you know with every episode both me and Claire being like oh we can mention this or we'll bring this up or we'll circle back around. Because raising teens is just such a whirlwind of challenges, funny moments, moments where you feel like you're going absolutely crackers. And it's a real uphill climb, but with a lot of laughs along the way. How do you and Claire know each other?

We met in Korea 32 years ago and have just been just like this the whole time. I think since the first day we met up until today, we have not changed at all our friendship and our... I guess the dimensions have changed and we've had kids and we've done that at similar times and so we've been able to tap into each other's experiences but yeah we're 32 years in. There's so much sensible stuff that you talk about in the podcast which is really refreshing to hear. Can you just explain the one in three rule because I found that really helpful and I'd not heard of it before.

Claire what is the one in three rule? The one in three rule is not something that I say we stuck to in our younger years for sure and it's basically you can expose one part of your body. We're either going, when you're going out, I mean, when you're going out socializing as a teen, as a young, beautiful, glamorous, young adult, let's say, either let's choose legs, midriff or cleavage. Let's not do all three at once. That's the message that we're trying to hammer home here. I mean, we do sound in the pod, don't we?

Like ideally, you know, pop on a roll neck and some nice cords, but your teenagers aren't going to want to do that. So we try to, you know, do the... Look, you can have one of three. Just show one of three and that's fine. Have a little mini skirt on with a baggy jumper. Have a little crop top on with your jeans. Or if you must, have a little bit of cleavage,

but then the rest is covered, just to give them a little bit of freedom. The makeup and the outfits compared to when we were teenagers, we were just talking on the app that's going to come out next week, just about our style choices. I mean, we were just, well, there was two or three generations of very flammable women when we were teenagers, wasn't it, Claire? You know, there was a lot of man-made fibres, there was a lot of hairspray, and most of us smoked as well, we'd have a fag on the go. And so, when we look at our daughters now, who were 15, 16, 17,

they look incredible, their makeup is on point, their hair is beautiful, they're very stylish, I mean, they are so polished these days, probably a lot to do with what they see on social media. And there's lots of, you know, we didn't have makeup tutorials. We just nicked a bit of our mum's mascara and applied it onto our lashes. And do you know what, Sarah? They've got so much choice, haven't they? If you're born with really frizzy, curly hair, there are now so many products available. You don't have to have that hair in your teenage years. And just that makes me want to time travel my own teenage years into the current scene. How much do

you tell your children, and I suppose particularly daughters, about your own experiences when you were their age? Because just on the one in three rule, Sarah, you're very funny in the podcast because you say that actually you're talking about a very tiny slip dress that your daughter wanted for her birthday. And it's so tiny, you'd only be able to cover one boob in a kind of scarf motion with it. And it did make me think you could carry off actually wearing a dress just around one boob in your youth in a way that most of us couldn't. But do you let on that you've done all of that kind of stuff yourself? Well, I try not to, Fee, but Claire often dobs me in because I was trying to get Claire

support on it and she was like, oh, I saw your mommy much worse. You should get that. I'm like, Claire, I was giving her the eyeball. You know, it's difficult because you want to strike that balance of saying to your daughters, you are funny, you're hilarious. You are smart. You are you are beautiful. You know, and you want them to feel great and you don't want to shame them for being proud of who they are and how they look. But at the same time, you know, my kids living in London,

my kids are on the tube all the time. And I just, this is the same old story we have to alter, you know, I have, I hate that they have to alter the way they feel they want to express themselves, because there are basically, let's say men who are still grim, who are still gonna stare at your daughter, who are still gonna be inappropriate. You know, I don't wanna risk her being in the way of any harm, but at the same time, I wanted to have the freedom to be able to dress how she wants. So you're really trying to strike that balance,

and you don't wanna make them feel ashamed of how they're trying to dress. So it's a real balancing act, I find, with clothes and things. I mean, on the upside, I didn't get her that 90 pound, 100% polyester headscarf that she wanted as a dress. She opened all her presses this morning. There were three pairs of jeans and a jump in there, which she absolutely loved and which she'd asked for.

She'd completely forgotten about the dresses. So it's gone fine. So I think sometimes as a parent, you do kind of have to say no, and you have to give your reasons why. And then other times you have to pick your battles and just tell them to put the puffer carts on as well. The one thing that I thought when I was listening to the podcast was actually, I would really love my teenagers to listen to it too. So do you ever think actually we might be picking up an

audience of teenagers eavesdropping on our world? Look absolutely teenagers are very welcome to listen to the Teen Commandments and we know that some do. I did get a message from an old college mate who was listening on a road trip they live in Canada and with her teenagers and they had it on in the car which I thought was really bold and brave. But I'll tell you this, I have been on, you know, my radio too for donkey's years. Nobody's really been searching me out to listen to me from my family. And now all generations are listening to the pods. I've got my in-laws listening and also my mom, which has just

opened the floodgates for Jackie to be talking to me about all sorts now. Certainly for your teens, you could have a listen and could have quite a giggle together. And it may well, I mean, it's not for this because we're not qualified. We do stay a lot on the pod. We are not here to give advice, but we are. It could, in fact, sort of, you know, prompt conversations to happen between you and your teens if you listen to it, because, you know, a few confessions might come up, one might open up a bit, teen might open up a bit and we all know the best place to do that is in the car because you're

looking straight ahead at the road and you don't have to have eye contact while you talk about things like masturbation or you know love or protein or whatever it is we're chatting about in that moment. I tell you what, that's somebody else's podcast isn't it? Masturbation Love Protein. That's a journey many people are going on at the moment. Do you feel quite liberated Sarah from the constraints of the BBC in doing this? Well it's interesting. I guess, look, I absolutely love my Tea Time show on Radio 2. It's my dream job.

And I guess it feels like a different table that I'm at. So I'm at the family table when I'm on Tea Time with grandparents there and kids and everybody chatting. And then this is me very much with my best mate, not necessarily out for the night, but I'll just have a coffee with my absolute best friend. And it feels like on Team Commandment, it's a really nice little community of moms who feel heard.

I know that's a bit, it's a bit of a cheesy saying that I feel heard, I feel seen, it's quite LA. But that's what we get a lot on the emails. We ask, we do an extra episode, which is called Your Turn. We get some brilliant stories from mums and dads telling us about their teens and about their own teenage experience. And that's what we really wanted was to create

this community of people for us all to just sort of like a panic room together and to just laugh at the whole experience. So yeah, it is lovely for me to be, because also I'm with my best mate. And what do you want to do with your best mate? You want to make a laugh. So there are definitely moments where I'm just showing off and I am getting away with stuff that I would never be able to when I'm on radio too and I wouldn't expect to because you know,

it's a family show. So it has been, it's been really fun and it's really homemade. I mean, I'm just in the office at the bottom of the garden, you know, and I'm setting up cameras and all sorts. Like, I'm, you know, it's feeling really like an organic process where we're in charge of it. It's just four really good female friends who, who are making this pod and that's sort of the spirit of it. I have to say, Claire, your house looks far nicer than Sarah's shed. I always do a game up north. It's very glamorous up north though, isn't it Claire? I always look like I've fallen over, or fallen off, or flitted when I come up north to see you and all your glamour.

Look at that pineapple in the background. She's got a beautiful pineapple, she's got really lovely kind of, what would you call that colour of your sofas? And so it's a very dark teal, isn't it Claire? Yeah, we argue about this. Some people say it's the grey, some people say it's the dark blue. Yeah, dark teal. Claire, big thought about parenting across the generations. I bet that there would be very few of our mothers

who would have been able to have all of these conversations that we are able to have as parents now. So what then happens in the next generation? Do they take it even further? What are we imparting to them that they will make use of do you think? I think that there's a really important message here amongst all of the chaos and the laughs and the fact that it's not really an advice sort of platform and we are just communicating and making mistakes and I think that like you've just said communication is key. Being able to talk about these things is so important but also I'm learning from my daughter that I don't necessarily listen enough as well and it's all a massive

lesson so it would be really interesting to see how this evolves and how they take it forward and you know fast forward to when our kids are our age and what they've learnt and how their parenting is very interesting but communication is definitely the starting point I think and this is a great way. They're all going to be so much better than we've been, aren't they? Yeah, I feel like it's just our own parents, our own parents had to deal, you know, had to get their head around subjects such as like homosexuality, which to our generation was like, mom, they're gay, it's fine.

And whereas our generation, you know, when you speak to, when I speak to my kids and they've got friends who identify as he or she or they, and that's for my generation. And for, you know, it's like, you've got to get, but they're like, yeah, they can be whatever gender they want, you know? And to them, it's just like, makes sense. And like, duh, hello, catch up.

So I think going forward, you know, I think our kids are just gonna be, you know, great communicator. And I think, I think with each generation, we get more and more open-minded and accepted and, you know, great communicator. And I think with each generation we get more and more open-minded and accepted and, you know, woke, which is, you know, I feel like you should be proud if you're woke because it means that you want to be a good person and open-minded and to be accepting of people, whoever they are. And I feel with each generation,

you know, we get, we hopefully get kinder. So I hope that's what I'll go forward. Yeah. Final thought from you, Sarah, you do use this really, really brilliant analogy of parenting teenagers as being like the person at the top of the cliff who's helping the abseiler go down it. Can you just talk us through that a little bit more? Um, yeah, well, it is, it is that thing where you've got to let them go a little bit, I guess, but you can't just leave go with the rope and let them go like, boop, boop, and crash at the bottom. You've got to bit by bit feed it through your hands and just lower them gently

by giving them those little bits of freedom, letting them make their own mistakes. I mean, we had a brilliant email from one woman who, her daughter, they were on a big family holiday in the UK and they all go out on a big family walk, cousins, sisters, uncles, all out on a big walk and her team insisted on wearing her crocs and she got stuck in sort of knee deep mud and she couldn't pull out her croc because she had acrylics on and in the end the woman who emailed us said it was the highlight for everybody because she just lost her mind and screamed at her daughter with lots of swearing in it. And we were saying at the time like you've just got to let them make their own mistakes

sometimes it's always those moments where you go okay if you want to wear your crocs fine I'm not you know pick your battles PYB pick your battles with these things and let them make little mistakes but at the same time always be there for them so you've just got to you know gently gently release them into adulthood whilst keep you know essentially keeping hold of them a bit. Sarah Cox and Claire Hamilton, The Teen Commandments is available wherever you get this from really. What have we got to say? I always find that whole wherever you get your podcasts from it's so clumsy. There needs to be a better and slicker way of saying it, doesn't there? I know. I completely agree with you because you don't you don't endlessly you know the the available in all good bookshops thing is is such a kind of well mocked and rightly

so term wherever you get your podcast from flip that on its head you just you know you're not going to get it from somewhere that you don't get your podcast from. Buy spuds from wherever you get your spuds from. Ah so it's us attempting to be helpful, but we're lounging on the divan of cliché there, and I do apologise. We will speak to you tomorrow with Book Club Special. Yeah, and do wipe your surfaces very carefully over the weekend. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB

or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca.