Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Please God, don't act it out (with Nick Clegg)

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Please bear with Jane - she's feeling rather 'liverish' after a raucous Tuesday night. There's more discussion of hot tuna, parking scams, and the true meaning of a Brucey Bonus... Plus, Nick Clegg - former deputy prime minister and former president of global affairs at Meta - discusses his new book 'How to Save the Internet: The Threat to Global Connection in the Age of AI and Political Conflict'. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I grazed across the end of the one show when all four were together. And they looked like at, actually look like the human version of those packs of sticky buns you get. You know, because they rip them apart. Sitting break. It's so close. I don't know whether or not anyone can stomach, yet more thoughts about hot tuna.

Well, I think we're leaving brine and feta behind us, aren't we? Okay. Because just to say, I'm feeling just what my old grandma would have called liverish today because I had a few drinks last night. You shouldn't do that in the middle of the week. I feel last night I went on two, I did two functions on a Tuesday night. That's way too much. And it ended with a really lovely curry.

But, you know, quite late eating for me. Well, you may need to turn away while we consider Kirsty from Norwich, not first time emailer, but maybe this will be first time red. out. Okay, go on. With the prayer emoji. Hello ladies, just packing my lunch bag before work and I realise I can email about a hot topic, hot tuna. We've got a microwave and a toaster at work. So I'm taking bread, baked beans, can of tuna and grated parmesan. Now, that is a bold move in an open office, isn't it? As soon as you open the tuna, the baked beans and the grated parmesan, Kirstie, I wonder whether or not you're going to be truly embraced by your colleagues.

Do you have any friends at work? Have you got a little cubbyhole that you could go and do this in in private? My favourite quick hot lunch is tuna and baked beans heated in the microwave on toast with parmesan on top, delicious. Also can substitute rice for toast for the perfect TV dinner, just shovel it in.

Sorry for the exclamation, Mark's love to you all. Did she say rice on toast? No, so she's just, she's substituting rice for toast for the perfect TV dinner. And I'm with you on that because, yeah, I love that kind of TV dinner. and it's just all in a bowl and you just need a spoon. I had a friend.

I had, in fact, I still have a friend. He's a man friend. A man friend. And he was very funny when he got married and we were talking about the changes that you make when you start living together. And he was saying the one thing they had really missed was being able to just make his entire dinner in one saucepan

and just sit in front of the television. television in his wife from just eating from the saucepan with a spoon not even bothering to put it on a plate it's very well-to-do man actually I was just quite surprised by that but then it's always slightly haunted me and I'm not quite there yet

but one day I'm going to do that myself and just take the whole pan do that Rosie you look guilty there she does look a bit shifty she does isn't she she's going this isn't anything new to me that's the expression yeah you do do that

yeah because previously discussed my partner as a chef. Yes, her partner is a chef, you know. So everything's quite a to do when he cooks. Is it a palava? It is a bit, yeah.

So I just like to have this simplicity of just, yeah, one tub, you know, one pot. I often don't even cook. Yeah, no, that's very sensible. I mean, there just can be a lot of marinating and chopping and suveding. You don't need that, do you?

And I don't have a dishwasher. And you don't have a dishwasher. God, the plot thickens over there. doesn't it? Gosh, I wonder whether there's a misery memoir coming our way very soon. Get to it. Well, be. Yeah. Anyway, Kirsty, well done to you.

And I very much hope that your colleagues are listening and they may want to feed back their thoughts about your incredibly wiffy lunch. Incredibly wiffy. This is more serious. From Anonymous, who says, I'm not sure I like the start of this.

I don't think any of my siblings are likely to listen to you, but I would prefer to remain anonymous. Well, you know, do you think that's a bit defeatist? don't know. This lady's siblings might be absolutely a gog at our every utterance. Probably not. I am ageing. I'm currently 72 without children. Now, I've been worrying during the last couple of years about how to sort out power of attorney. I've got siblings, but only one is in a position to take it on. He's only three years younger than I am. His daughter might be a possibility, but she has a severely disabled daughter

of her own, so I think it would be quite a stretch. My friends are almost in every other. the same age as me. I mean, that's perfectly natural. Having no children means one is even less likely to have younger friends. In the end, to my relief, my cleaner has agreed to share the responsibility with my brother. I've known her for 15 years. She's discreet, trustworthy and very capable. She's also, of course, local, and that's important. Funnily enough, some years ago, while on holiday, a fellow traveller, when he learned that I and my ex had chosen not to have children, asked who would look after me in my old age. Leaving aside the fact that there's no guarantee

that a child would bother anyway, I responded that I didn't think that was a good reason to have children and that shut him up. I think a better response might have been to ask if that was why he did have children. Why do we always think of a better answer later? And that is so true, anonymous. I'm full of fantastic reposts.

They often come to me in the night three weeks after an encounter, which I felt I left in a kind of inadequate way so that's just one of those things it doesn't always come to you at the time required does it? No but you can stall them up for the next time you find yourself in a vaguely similar

situation pop it right in there is a smuggery about people who think that if you have children then naturally they're going to rush to your assistance in your dotage it's just not true they've got their own lives to lead and they probably have their own grandchildren

by the time so you know you can probably forget it, can't you? I mean, unless you're very fortunate, and they live next door. Yes, which is really where. Even then, they're not going to necessarily be your support network, are they? It's interesting, and I think you've probably reached a very sensible compromise, anonymous with your power of attorney, a combination of a cleaner who you absolutely trust and know very well, and your brother. So, yeah, good idea. There is more information about this sort of thing in that book. We're constantly promoting the later years by Peter Thornton. so right sister and I don't know whether you've found this but you definitely get to a certain

age where you're asked an awful lot to be people's powers of attorney aren't you they are definitely stacking up in my life I so don't because I've seen what happens you just ask Rosie and Eve to do it all that's true but they don't they're young but it's but it is a bit daunting because you do think gosh if you all went at once here I'll be completely and utterly swamped with decisions and all of that and I'm not the most, I'm not terribly good at admin. I put that out there. But I found it very difficult to say no as well.

I think if people ask you, I felt definitely obliged to say, yes, of course I will. And then to give it a serious thing and then to try and remember where I've put all of the details what I get sent through the post chain. Just while you're talking, I've been reminded of a scam I got yesterday. Have you had the one about the parking fine? no i haven't turned that one yesterday and um i thought oh this is outrageous oh my god i mean i think

the truth was that i probably had parked some way just for a few minutes thinking i'd be all right and i thought oh they've got me um but it wasn't that it was just a scam because it really weirdly was a text with a group chat and it's just cobbler so i wrote back this is bollocks uh and then other members of the group chat started chipping in saying things like i don't even have a car. That's so weird to do it on a group chat. That's mad. So what is that? Where is that come from and why are they operating that way? Well I guess that they have, on the dark web, they've bought a bundle, haven't they? Of numbers? God, it's terrifying. But they've actually been too stupid to basically kind of do a blind copy version on your texting, haven't they? So they've

sent it to everybody in that particular bundle. So it might be quite easy to trace it back. I don't know if there were, how many, how many we were in the group chat? I think it's about 10, 10 or 11. Okay. Yeah. So it is difficult, isn't it? Now to work out, I just assume everything that comes to me digitally is a scam, anything that's asking for money. And it's going to trip me up one day because the actual speeding points on my licence are just going to get ignored. You're going to have to come and visit me in debtor's jail, Jane. And I'd like you to bring, actually, I did bring some very nice biscuits in today. You did. If you could just make a note of those, if you do ever come and visit me in a facility, I'd like

some of those. They looked a bit pricey. I would imagine in that facility they'd probably be confiscated. So you can forget. One, one packet boasted that it was 70% chocolate. They're biscuits, but they're not really... I mean, when do we pass over into a lump of chocolate if 70% of each biscuit is actually chocolate? Well, isn't it from the store

that just used to call them more chocolate than biscuit? So why have they rebranded? I thought that was a really good idea. Yeah. Why have they just gone? I don't know. Okay. But anyway, I'm looking forward to that. Fiona Brett, formerly from the Cotswold, welcome. Long-time listener, Multitudinous email. Well, oh, she's in Adelaide?

She is, isn't she? Thoughts from Adelaide? Well done, well spotted. I wanted to have my thoughts to the Thursday Murder Club film. I love the book. I listened to it on Audible. I was very excited about the film. How disappointing.

I couldn't finish watching it. Rom was a bit sveled and clean. I may have a problem with Piers Bronson after his constipated singing in Mammaea, which has given me the hicciful. ever since. And I completely agree with your listener Amy yesterday and her observations on the 2D infomercial

feel. It was very made for TV and the story just wasn't as clever. While the cast was amazing they were just wrong somehow and I completely agree Fiona there were too many A-listers so you didn't know who to look at on the screen when all four of them were there together

and I felt that they didn't quite gel actually. And I'm sure that there's no kind of nastiness behind the scenes or whatever, but I think maybe they all just get on too well, you know, so they kind of didn't look like they were acting enough. A lot of the vespians

like to tell tales of how well they get on the set. Well, very much I did. I grazed across the end of the one show when all four of the four were together. And they looked like it, I actually look like the human version of those packs of sticky buns you get.

You know, because they rip them apart. Sitting breakers, it just so close together. they're all merged at the bottom. But they were doing exactly what you've said. Oh, it's marvellous. And then I phoned peers. And I just couldn't wait to be back with Ben.

And it's gone like, oh, for heaven. For sake. Anyway, look, Fiona goes on to say, I work at a cemetery in admin, not furnishing or burying. Thank you for clearing that up, Fiona. And I listened to you at lunchtime whilst taking my constitutional.

Imagine a middle-aged woman suddenly crossing her legs and ugly cry laughing amongst the graves. Stones. Well, that was me today when you were talking about family mating seasons and being on heat. Do you know what? That gives me such a tingle that we've made a woman in a graveyard in Adelaide laugh. No, seriously. How great is that? It's fantastic. Can't wait to listen to the rest later when I walk the dogs. So, Fiona, welcome aboard. It's very nice to know that you're out there. We do need a little bit more evidence of the mating season and families, please.

if you'd like to just give that a little bit of a thing. Well, I am very conscious that my sister and I, both born in June. There you go. You've got amazing season. Hang on second, I'll just work this back. So June, May. Yes, no, don't. So when is it?

I don't know. Oh, my God. When was my dad's birthday? Yesterday. Oh, ho. Raimondo Oh God Lucky you

He had a toasty in Eminess yesterday We've forgiven them a few mentions Right I don't think he should still be doing that Is it in shame I mean I know It's quite true

This is from Now how do I pronounce this I had a very bad day of pronunciation Just like I really didn't feel I did lots of things justice Is that Eloise Heloise?

Heloise Heloise Or Heloise Or maybe it's just a typo We're so sorry. You deserve much better. And thank you for your email about young. It was you, I think, you talked about younger generation smoking. Yes.

Yeah. I had conversation, this very conversation with my mum's partner recently. For context, our correspondent says, I'm 23, he's 69. Baby boomers, they're the 1946 to 64, so that's me. And then Gen X, 65 to 80. That's you, isn't it? Are you Gen X then? you are fabulous i never knew yeah

while they grew up with smoking also grew up with family members who'd smoked heavily all their lives and likely saw relatives and loved ones develop complications and deaths related to smoking later in life as in the case of my mom's partner and also that's exactly my experience so my maternal grandfather who worked for british american tobacco died of a lung related condition and I saw him just before he died and I have never smoked apart from that one time on the Island Man and honestly that was it

that was enough for me to think no this isn't something I will ever do our correspondent goes on my parents and grandparents all smoked occasionally back in the day and I'm aware of a few family members having been regular smokers but they all gave up at some point and so don't have those 50 plus

years of daily heavy smoking of course there are many in my generation who do have regular smokers in the family but I'd say it's far less common. At the end of the day, I think those scary pictures on the packaging and a few PSH-C-E lessons in school are far less effective than encountering a personal loss due to smoking and so many in my generation do not seem to have fully grasped

the actual risks of heavy smoking. I think it's a brilliant email. And I think our correspondent, Heloise, Heloise, you are spot on. If you spent some of your childhood in fugged out rooms that stank of cigarette smoke and being driven around in cars that stank of cigarette smoke, I think you would be much more likely to be put off cigarette smoking. But actually my children and your children would come into this category two would have had a very, very smoke-free childhood

because they would have been in public places at an impressionable age when smoking was banned so I think they just don't have that do you remember sometimes when you get up if you'd had a night out at the pub the night before and it must have been very frustrating for you as a non-smoker but yes it was because your clothes stink

your clothes stink you felt a little bit your oxygen levels were probably quite down I mean it was revolting but I think our kids haven't seen that so they just don't they just they still I mean they just think it's cool they just think it's cool yeah I mean we're not that before

I mean, smoking on the underground. I know. It's just... Do you remember the top deck of the buses in London? And then there'd always be a smoking carriage at the end of the tube line. And you could smoke on airlines and all that the non-smoking section, the only way that it was delineated from the smoking section was just by flimsy curtain. There was no no smoking section.

If you're in the non-smoking section and the smoking section started the row behind you, and this happened to us a lot actually when we were flying out to Hong Kong. my poor mom who's a lifelong anti-smoker should get properly, properly upset about it because you'd just wait for take-off and the sign would go off and half the plane would light up. Get out there, Gaspers.

And just as a PS, this correspondent also says that for our next book club choice and we are going to do an autobiography, she would also like Patty Smith's Just Kids so that's quite a few people shouting out for that. I'm intrigued by that. Yeah, I am, I must admit. Has it been out a while, that one?

It's from, well, I looked it up earlier, 2010 it came out, but it is available, so it's definitely something we should give consideration to. That passed me by completely. Yeah, I don't think I don't know. I didn't know. Thank you also for all of your lovely suggestions for young persons reading. We will try and collate those into just one great big list and pop that up somewhere where you can read through it. This comes in from Beth Childs, and it's a different type of recommendation, but I'd never come across this either. and I don't know whether you have, Jane, but Beth says, listening to your recent podcast

following the Thursday Murder Club for the anonymous emailer, I too struggled with finding conversation topics with my mum of 94, who also struggles to be in company and can be negative. I can recommend Tales, Life Story Edition. Now, these are cards with questions covering childhood, midlife and present,

easy conversation starters, which prompt memories and help create a more positive experience. So is that a pack of cards? I suppose it probably is. And what a fantastic idea. That's a really good idea. So I've come across the ones which I think are aimed much more

at kind of parties or holidays or whatever it is, which are Break the Ice with Strangers cards. That's always coming up up at me on the socials. The one that suggests, what was the first question they always use? Which family member would help you dispose of a body? It's stuff like that. That's not exactly Christmas Day, is it? No, but it's funny, Jane.

No, come on, it is quite funny. I don't think... Right, who would you choose? I don't think they're asking to actually participate in some... Christmas can be very stressful. Well, it can be. I do have an answer to that question, but I cannot possibly... Okay.

...obtrue... ...obliging. ...public. But those ones are great. They are really, really good fun. We've played those before. And actually, if you've got a multi-generational group, They are hilarious because there are lots of very kind of modern things in there.

Okay, right. You know, about selfies and all kinds of stuff, you know, which the older people just find bewildering and quite funny and whatever. They're very benign as well. Yeah, I mean, sometimes the old people, I'm just putting them all in a big lump. They are, it's terrifying how often they're, I mean, they're right. It is okay to ponder why somebody needs to photograph their meal. Because it's not, it actually, it's a bit stupid.

It's did. Yes. No, I love the different perspective. Yeah. Which, and of course, of course they're right. God, there's so much that we're completely and utterly wrong about. I'll tell you what we've got Nick Clegg on in a minute. And his book is about that kind of theme about the crossroads we're at with artificial intelligence and where it's all taking us.

I do think we've got genies that are out of the bottle that are never going to get back in. So we will be the very old people. I hope at family gatherings who will just be I don't know it probably won't be funny by then will it? Well we'll just be on our phones so we won't be paying any attention

to anything else that anybody's doing but we'll be the old timers in the corner on our phones won't we whereas they'll be I don't know mock wrestling with their latest avatar they will be just having a virtual Christmas but we won't be in the room will we we'll just be in some far-flung destination

but we'll be called in virtually. Well, that's great, because then you can just leave at any time. And you can sit in your wife, France, and eat everything out of the pan. Well, you can't? You don't have to rely on of Ante West to get you anywhere. It'll be great, bring it on. Now, we have hinted that perhaps some of the acting in the Thirsting Murder Club isn't up too much. So it's just worth saying that Judith, our regular correspondent, wants to draw our attention to the brilliant acting of Sheridan Smith

in that ITV show, which is on now. It's called I Fault the Law. And I agree with you, Judith. I mean, she is phenomenal in that. I think she is a brilliant actress. And she, I don't know how she does it, but she makes me care about every single character she plays. She plays meaty characters.

Yeah, she does. I can't think of her in anything light and fluffy. No, she doesn't, I mean, in a way, it would be lovely to see her inside. I think there is something coming up in which she might be a little bit more, I think that's a drama. You'll never guess where it's. You probably will. Anyway, that's coming up shortly.

Tampon embarrassment from Sandra. The email about the customs officer searching the suitcase containing lots of loose tampons reminded me of an incident many years ago. I just laughed in a beer in the late 80s. I was in a banking hall. Do you remember that? It used to have a queue at the bank. And while at the counter paying in some checks,

my two young sons, who were three and five, were behind me in the space between the counters and a huge queue of people. Realising that they had perhaps been rather too quiet, I turned around to see that they had removed several lilettes from my bag and had lined them up end to end on the carpet, my eldest son attempting to push them along like a tiny train. Obviously, I was mortified, but being British,

I just pretended it wasn't actually happening. I completed my transactions and regained a modicum of dignity by calmly putting the tampons back in my back. The expressions from the other people in the queue, range from acute embarrassment and a desperate attempt to hide their amusement. Another young mum finally burst into laughter and this made me crack up too. My son's now grown in total horror when I relate this incident. Right, okay, well they weren't to know.

And also, I think if that happened now, I don't think there would be intakes of breath. Would there? I think there would still be some, but I think overwhelmingly people would just crack on with their day. Yeah, yeah. And... Because these things exist and they are needed. So, you know, get on with it. Yep.

Menstruation products. That's the BBC Paulson. Carol says on the subject of blemange, yes, you can still buy the powdered version. Last Christmas, for a bit of fun, I decided to make a pink rabbit blamange surrounded by green jelly as a trip down memory lane

for my adult children and teenage grandchildren. Unfortunately, I didn't prepare. the mould very well and it looked like road killed fantastic oh god despite the error it had the desired effect and brought a smile to their faces

oh Carol that's just fantastic I'll tell you what somewhere in East London and actually is probably Rosie's fiancée who's creating this there'll be a hipster making blemange won't there they'll be making it it'll be a matcher flavoured blemange

Is the cereal restaurant still going in East London? No that's no I think that popped a long time Did it? Okay, yeah. But that was the thing. In all, it is actually a tough time for hospitality, isn't it? Because quite a few gaffes around our way have shut very recently. Yeah, all right, serious, Susie. We're just talking about the happiness of the Blamond. I'm just saying, and I know that a lot of young people who have got jobs in hospitality are struggling.

And then, you know, it's just not a great time. Sorry, I know let's just focus on the Blamange. No, you're right, dear Dirdrie of Doom. Yes, I'm just, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it slightly because there's nothing like. that we've got one very near me. A restaurant that has shut very suddenly. And it's just a sad sight when you go past it.

Because although there are still, up until very recently, there were flowers wilting in vases on tables. It just looks a bit... Anyway, sorry, I am being depressing. No, no, no, you're completely right about it. And that's somebody's dream, isn't it, as well as lots of really important jobs? It's somebody who once thought,

this is my life's coming together to open my own restaurant, put the flowers out every day and welcome customers and do this and that and it's gone. So yeah, I'm not being cynical about that either. Sophie says, listening to Monday's pod when Fee was describing her love of cheese scones and referred to the lump of cheese found in a homemade scorn as a brucey bonus.

I too used to use this phrase until my partner asked me what it meant. I love the way she's phrased this. Upon the Google look up. It's good phrasing. That's great. It appears it's very rude slang. Well, I'm using it with reference to Bruce, think me Jiggy, what's it?

Forsyth, yeah, him, because he always used to have a Brucey bonus on play your cards right or when he was doing the Generation Game or one of those game shows with Give Us a Twirl. That's the woman who is always there, either putting the cards out or just standing by Bruce making him look gorgeous. So what does Brucey bonus mean Rosie's looking at? it up for us because she's much braver than we are. Let's not. No, we're not going to say anything, but I'm on a, on a, what is the phrase, on a quick, quick, Google look up. On the Google look up, I'm not getting anything rude. In fact, there's a Sky News article about it. Oh, right, okay. Brucey bonus, the catchphrases he was known for. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, if you compare to

get back in touch, our correspondent, and in kind of gentle, descriptive terms, can you tell us what it's been referred to? You don't want to get banned from the internet? Oh, she's just found it right okay um let's just show me i'm not going to say anything is it too bad is it too bad is it i thought you meant to act it out i don't act it out we're in a workplace uh hang on oh what sorry i can't even well clever them Seems highly unlikely Right

To be honest It's not actually as rude as I was But it's still very unlikely Sophie Shame on you Sophie No that's terrific Well I think Sophie you and I should carry on using it And then just snigger and snort every time that we do

Oh dear Final one from me before we get to Nick Clegg And it comes in from Louise The idea of Nick Clegg appearing on this podcast is suddenly quite funny Louise has got some other recommendations for young people and what they might find interesting to read I absolutely have to recommend the Alaskan writer

Bonnie Sue Hitchcock She's written two novels which are both more of a series of in interconnected stories set in the northwest of the United States The books are the smell of other people's houses and everyone dies famous in a small town. And just on those two titles alone, they sound intriguing. They do.

You're in radio studio, that's a microphone. You're right? Sorry, I've only been doing this for 400 years. And then item number two is about jury service. Oh, yes, I love this. I worked at Exeter Combined Court Centre from 1998 to 2000. There was always much fun to be had opening the post each morning when a load of jury summonsers had been sent out.

On the back of each form, there was a box where people could write their excuse if they were trying to wriggle out of their civic duty. More often than not, it was usually the tedious work-a-day, I need to pick my children up from school. However, the best one, which had been received not long before I started working there at the end of 1997

was, I'm too upset by the death of Princess Diana. All the best, Louise. Quite legit. You haven't mentioned that Louise is my friend from Liverpool City Council. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't at the top. Well, actually, she's not my friend. We're sort of slightly at odds. Well, I didn't want

mention that because she introduced herself as your frenemy. I don't want to upset you, though. But Louise, the lovely bin you sent me is still doing great work at home as my pen caddy and I look at it with great fondness every single morning when I see it in the kitchen. So thank you. That's the closest thing you've got to being scouts.

Right. Why don't you bring in your guest? Former Deputy Prime Minister, Nicholas Clegg. You've just done it for me. Thank you, sister. Clegg has a vision of our future. It's a world where AI does us all a lot of good, not harm. It's a world where data is shared in a decent way. It's a world where global powers get together to ensure the safe passage of citizens through a digital world changing at warp speed. All of these ideas have been formed through his experience of being in the room at Meta. He took up the position of Global Affairs Director for the tech company in 2018. He had lost his seat in Sheffield in 2020. 2017 back in this country and his party, the Lib Dems, have been seriously wounded in the previous election. He was approached by META at a tricky time for the company, particularly after the Cambridge Analytica scandal.

And he was hired to help navigate the choppy waters of regulation and political scrutiny and to restore faith in the platforms. But all of that changed when the new Trump administration made it clear that having the US government behind META was going to be the key to its success. it was quite the political pivot. I asked Nick Clegg about that departure from Meta. Was it a it's you not me situation or an it's me not you one? Well, the companies run and own basically by Mark Zuckerberg. So, you know, there was no conversation of that sort. For me, the change of circumstances in the US,

not just the new Trump administration, Trump 2, because I'd been there during Trump 1, but this extraordinary shift in Silicon Valley, the kind of stampede to throw in their lot with... I just thought, I'm not unsurprisingly, I mean, there's no sort of secret to this. I thought, that's not really, I'm not very interested in it. It's not actually something I particularly sort of, you know, agree with. I'm not already going to help here, so it felt like a very natural time.

I'd actually been at the company somewhat longer than I'd initially expected. So it felt like a very easy decision to make. Do you think you had really fitted in there because the way that you described the culture is quite interesting. I got a sense that actually when you arrived there there was quite a natural instinct for you to feel a little bit uncomfortable actually within Silicon Valley.

Well, actually I go further than that. I always thought to myself, the moment I feel too comfortable or at the moment I feel like an insider rather than an outsider. At the moment I'm no longer a sort of grit in the oyster, if I can put it like that, then I should probably leave because I'm, you know,

I was explicitly joined the company, not because of my technical expertise, not because I know how to write a line of code or design an algorithm, but because of my 20 odd years in European and British politics and because this company and all these

big American companies had collided somewhat clumsily and somewhat sometimes by accent, sometimes sins of a mission and commission, but over the previous years into a serious of societal and political and ethical and moral dilemmas and controversies and I think they realised they just as engineers that they were slightly out of their depth

in terms of how to deal with with all of the... And also they weren't going to stay being profitable. I mean, you arrived at the time after Cambridge Analytica where actually Facebook had looked like it was in trouble. Yeah, I mean, they're juggernauts these companies. I sometimes think, you know, there are 4 billion people using these apps every, every month, I think it is now. Actually, I think they often march on almost regardless of the controversies,

commercially speaking, since that's your question. But yes, they're businesses. They're not NGOs, they're businesses, they're ferociously competitive businesses. The thing that I think people sometimes forget from a distance when we talk about big tech is sort of lump them all together. I mean, don't underestimate how ferocious the competition is between them and that that is the thing that drives us. a lot of their behavior is the one-upmanship between all of these tech giants in a small

stretch of coastline in California. But I think your underlying point is certainly when I arrived in late 18, and I remember saying this to Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg, I said, look, I just think you're going to run out of societal permission. You know, you need, there's no God-given right for you to carry on operating at the scale that you are. You need societal permission for that, in whatever sort of tacit and other form that car. And I think in the wake of the 2016 election and all the controversy around Russian interference in that election, Cambridge Analytica, as you mentioned, I think that, yeah, they were absolutely reeling.

They were reeling and didn't really know how to kind of steady the ship to continue to operate as an innovative engineering company. We will talk more about the manifesto that you outline in the book, a vision of the future, where we would all be able to, I think, exist in a much calm away with the technology that we're using. But I'd like to pick up on that point about societal permission. In this country, as in so many other countries, we've had a really serious and imperative debate about online safety in this country resulting in the Online Safety Act. And I did note, very early on in the book, you give quite a defence of the company that you worked for

in terms of the harm that it may or may not be doing to teenagers. and I was a little bit surprised at that because I think we're in a place where we don't deny that that's happening. So what I try and do in the book and look I totally accept people might not like this because the issue of technology generally how we all use it

and most especially how kids use it is highly emotive and a parent myself we all care about this it's infused with a great deal of fear and a great deal of tragedy of course particularly in the instances where youngsters have taken their lives Nothing can be more heart-rending than that.

But what I try and do in the book is just try and look at the data and the evidence. And I don't do it, it's not in my name. Again, one can argue whether I do it in an even-handed way. I certainly try to, because you have books like John's on Heights's book, Anxious Generation, which has captured a lot of attention. We have a lot of other people who, academics and others who research this, who have a very, very different point of view and say, hang on, be careful. There are a lot of young people, a lot of young people

for whom actually finding their own identity and a sense of community or an interest is really, really important. We certainly saw that during the pandemic when everyone was locked up at home, but more than that. So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Technology can be a very positive thing.

So I try and lay that out as objectively as I can. As it happens, as again I try and explain in the book, actually come out in a very similar place to where Jonathan Haight comes out in terms of what we should do. I, for instance, am actually totally, the idea that we should say there shouldn't be smartphones at school. I think it's totally right if governments say, look, we don't think social media should be used under a certain age or whatever.

I've actually got some ideas about how I think we should go much further in making sure the age controls are much stricter than they are, even under the online harms safety act here in this country. But in the book, you're right, I don't, I don't, I just, I suppose I have a rather old-fashioned belief that, yes, we can, of course throw rocks at problems but the reality is that young people use

technology. We can wave a wand and hope they don't but they do so I'm much more interested in the how and the research that's been done so that we can come to practical solutions to make young people safer. One thing that I do want to put to you though and our audience is so interested

in this subject Nick Clegg you quote an internal report into the use of Instagram by teenage girls which was leaked by a whistleblower Now, the headlines around that leak were that Meta knew that Instagram was damaging to teenagers. You go on to say in 11 areas out of the 12, the majority of girls who struggle with these issues, and that's loneliness, anxiety, sadness and eating disorders, also said that Instagram made that situation better, not worse. Now, I read that twice just to make sure that I'd completely understood both sides of the argument.

But just as a parent myself, Nick, these are kids. How would they know what is good and what is bad for them? And that's the key point. You know, I've sat in rooms with teenagers who say microdocin ketamines, fantastic. It's not. They don't know. That's the point. You're the grown-up in the room at Meta. So do you really stand by that?

So in that section of the book, and forgive me, even though I wrote the book, I can't remember. I think I know. Did you write the book yourself, is it, A-I-generated? No, absolutely did, absolutely did. I hope that comes across. It does come across. I am joking. No, no, no. Thank you, Fee.

No, just on this point, the point I make on this, the dangers of getting into sort of rabbit holes here, because honestly, the underlying seriousness of what you're saying and the concern that people listening to this show or anyone will have about young people using technology, you're quite right. I think it was one of the greatest preoccupations that people have, and I don't want to diminish that.

It's just that, again, I guess some people might find this frustrating. I do think trying to look at research and evidence rather than assertion is kind of important if you want to come up with a society-wide approach to this and all I point out in that section is that that stuff wasn't even research

it was basically focus groups to your point so for instance one of the things that was I think widely covered at the time that Francis Howgan had released was a focus group

I think it was around 40 teenagers I think. I probably need to check the data. And they were asked first whether they had a number of pre-existing, again, self-declared conditions, whether they suffered from sleeplessness, body image issues, anxiety and so on. Then they were asked on a number of counts, when you use Instagram, do you feel better or worse, given that you're already carrying some issues. And I think, roughly speaking, a lot of issues, it was roughly a third, a third, a third said, made no difference.

Third said it made it worse. Third made it said better. But it was a focus group, which is kind of what you want companies like that to understand, is how do people feel when they use their products? But to your point, it was never purported to be. And I do think that was a, I think what I'd try and explain in that section of the book. It wasn't research. There are some very, very accomplished academics around the world who've done a lot of research, which isn't just about people saying how they feel, but tries to be more objective.

And I just think on such an emotive issue you should try and be as objective as possible because otherwise we're not going to come to the solutions we all want because everybody wants the same thing. So it's one of the themes that underlines your book, isn't it? That actually when you're looking towards a future and working out how we as humans can fit those feelings into an artificial intelligence-driven world,

there is always going to be friction, there is always going to be conflict. We don't have enough time during this interview for you to lay out your whole manifesto. But let me ask you this. If we cast our minds forward and you and I are having this conversation in 20 years' time and it's worked out your way,

what is it that we have, that we don't have now? We'd first have an agreement between the major, what I call techno-democracies in the world, so India, Europe and America on how you develop, particularly AI, how you keep data flows open, how you share technology on the underlying, this very powerful infrastructure, also how you monitor and mitigate some of the downsides.

And just on that, because I do think it slightly connects the two subjects, I'm genuinely very, very worried about what it is going to mean, particularly for vulnerable individuals, whether they're adult or children, but most especially children, when they develop, as they already are, highly intimate, sometimes deep relationships with agentic AIs, which will appear increasingly in sort of avatar. our form, which will really present themselves as almost impostors of human interaction. We already know that as human beings we can fall in love with pets, paintings, celebrities.

We have a capacity as human beings to infuse other people and other things with enormous amount of significance. And I do worry that unchecked these companies, are just going to keep innovating in kind of drawing people into ever more intimate relationships, ranging from pornography, you know, deep-fate pornography, but through to highly emotionally dependent relationships. And I think that is precisely the area where you want those main democratic countries

to enshrine a shared understanding about how you make that kind of new technology safe, because it's a very, very powerful form of personalisation. But how on earth do we get to that point where at the moment those, I mean, an awful lot of those democratic countries have elected leaders who are isolationists, who are ultra, ultra-competitive people

who want their country to come first. It's not on the horizon to give a warm embrace to somebody else's data flow, is it? Totally. My own view, but again, maybe we should meet in a few years' time and we can tell. My own view is that they won't win in what they're doing now. They'll fail.

I don't, for instance, think America is going to deliver a knockout blow against China in the AI race for AI supremacy and at that point they will realize and the reasons we can go into if you like but it's just the nature of the technology it's too dispersed and versatile it won't be like a

there won't be a eureka moment where one company says I've got the I've got the secrets to the universe I've got superintelligence I'm going to keep it in a box under lock and key and everybody else is going to have to depend

I just don't think it's going to work like that at all Chinese open source AI models already being distributed around the world so I just don't I think I think when America realizes, because I'm not relying on anyone's altruism here, and I'm not relying on the sort of belief in sort of liberal multilateralism that I believe in,

I think America's own self-interest will realize they can't win against China in the current, very belligerent America first will clobber them until they submit type approach. And at that point, they will realize that they have to rediscover the gift or the statecraft of partnership, which clearly they've lost. I mean, look, we're meeting today in a...

week where Modi, who should be America's most important partner vis-a-vis China, has been chased into Xi Jinping's arms by the Trump. They are literally holding hands. But none of this Nickleg is going to happen under Trump, is it? No, I don't, not under the current approach. Absolutely not. No, I don't, I agree with you. I don't see any indication at all that the current Trump administration understands that American power and American influence depends on partnership, not just belligerence. So I'm assuming they will, I'm pretty firm in my view, that this current approach that they've adopted won't work for them.

So, yeah, I guess I'm writing a book, the validity of which will only really bear out in years to come. Where are the women at the top of tech? Not enough, is the answer. Not visible, not enough. I work for one, Cheryl Sandberg, who was a fantastic champion of women. It's a very, very male, very male-dominated environment. But if she's such a fantastic champion of women,

why aren't the more women that matter? I think it may be something... I don't have a good answer for you. I think it may be partly culture. I think maybe, though again, this slightly depends from country to country about STEM subjects. That's changed over time.

But I think for a long time those subjects were quite male-dominated subjects. I think that has thankfully changed quite a lot. I certainly experienced myself. I'm a man, but I find a very, to my mind, it's a slightly weird masculinity which seems to have settled on Silicon Valley

like a sort of dust and this whole bro podcast sphere that you've got in the US and the whole backlash against what was deemed to be excessive wokeery and the, there's something happened in the American political psyche around the COVID pandemic,

the lockdowns, the 2020 election. You remember all stuff about the Hunter Biden laptop and then the George Floyd thing and then the Me Too. movement and we probably have the time to diagnose all of that but it certainly has led to this very very kind of brittle I find some kind of pretty pretty unimpressive masculinity it'll it'll change again and the thing that I've said this before but will it change to allow more women in I very much hope so it very much hope so look it's not that there aren't

I work with some outstanding women at meta you know the the head of our AI research teams when I was there was a Canadian lady, Professor Juel Pino, she was one of the best bit of the French lady who ran the Facebook app, Fijissimo, again, a good friend of my, she's now number two to Sam Altman. So there are some very impressive women indeed. I've forgotten her name, sorry, but who used to work with Sam Altman, who's now set up our own AI company. So they're there? They are there. They are there. It's not, they're not, they're not, it's not, they're not, it's not, a, statistically numerically they are definitely in a minority in leadership positions and there just has been this to my mind what will appear in a few years time kind of weird slightly zany

slightly childlike um um slightly thin skin masculinity which seems to become de rigour amongst some of the some of the tech leaders in yeah well we can but hope um your wife is very straight talking. I like the cut of her jib, always have done. What did she make of life in Silicon Valley? It didn't really take to it. Have you been there? Have you been to Silicon Valley? I went to Palo Alto

20 years ago. So I remember Silicon Valley before the Silicon was really pulled all over. It was, yeah, okay. It was probably much more food orchards and lovely. Yes, it's very lovely. Of course, it was a very lovely sunshine. There was a lot of marinated tofu going down even then. But no, I have no cultural experience.

No, it was probably when you were there was probably the sort of the Grateful Dead and sort of spliss-smoking. I'm not that old. No, you said 20 years ago. I'm not sorry, I'm not making any adjudications on your age for you. You said 20 years ago. Let's get back to what Merriam thinks.

Yes. It's a very, it's a curious place because it's obviously this hotbed of ingenuity and innovation, immense amount of wealth. I mean, ludicrous amount of wealth and sort of engineering excellence. and yet it's one of the most placid and dull places

I've ever, ever lived in. There's no street culture, there's no, there's no culture. The sun shines and people work, and that's kind of it. Yeah, it sounds awful. Well, I said, no, I really missed, I missed, I missed pubs, football games, laughter, theatre. I just, the fabric of just a cultural life, a rich cultural life, is completely absence. And since you asked about Miriam, I remember one of the things we tried to do early on, it was her idea, was, oh, we thought, oh, wow, look, lots of people with PhDs here,

you've got big university, Stanford, got people with lots of, you know, money to spend. Let's create, there was no book festivals. So we thought, oh, it wouldn't be great to create a, you know, festival in the Valley or whatever the title was. And we tried to drum up interest. It just couldn't find any interest because people just are heads down, writing their next line of code, developing their new app, their new product.

It's why it's such a hard driving place. But it's an oddly conformist and dull place in many other respects. Right. Well, they'll certainly hang out the bunting for your return, Nick. I'm going to get a couple of weeks. You mentioned wealth there, and there are varying reports of how good meta has been to you personally in terms of your wealth,

anything from $20 million up to $100 million. Let's just settle on the fact that it has made you a very wealthy man. Do you think that that's going to be problematic for you when you turn your hand to the next thing? We in this country don't really like people who become unbelievably wealthy and successful. And there's also the absolute truth that when you left the coalition government in that final election, a lot of your colleagues in the Liberal Democrats cease to have their place in the political world. When you go to the conference, which you're going to in a couple of weeks' time,

do you think that you will be regarded as someone who has rather spectacularly failed upwards? I mean, I can't speak for how people might want to describe me positively or negatively. My whole life, people have sort of criticised and thrown popcorn from the sides. I try and always be very open and straightforward about my own decisions. I just, I accept that people will, for reasons, maybe good motivations, maybe bad motivations, say disobliging or positive things. I think, look, I was paid, I was a very senior executive in one of the largest big tech companies. So I was paid, all these senior executives are paid a tremendous amount of money.

I feel very lucky and fortunate about that. I suppose the alternative, what, is that I wouldn't have just done it at all? And of course, there were people when I went to Silicon Valley said, oh, there's an example. he's working for a big tech. Again, everyone's entitled to their own views. I've never understood that myself in the same way that people thought, oh, why did you go to coalition

become Deputy Prime Minister? I kind of accept if you choose a life which I always have done, which is to sail into difficult dilemmas and controversies, but to try and play your role in improving things that you'll have people who will prefer to sort of keep their hands clean, not engage and criticise from the side.

It's just never been my temperament, and I accept, of course I accept the life, that I've led and the choices I've made will attract criticism. I stick by the view, I stick by the view that, certainly in the case of my decision to go to Silicon Valley,

there are four billion human beings around the world who use this technology. We can pretend that it would be better if they didn't use them. They do, they will continue to do it. And I feel actually extremely proud of a lot of the changes that I introduced that I immodestly think

wouldn't have occurred if I hadn't been there. And look at them... But also, it's a question about belonging, though, isn't it? It's a question about being part of the fold. And I think for a lot of politicians, they always retain that sense of the party that they led. And it's just a truth, isn't it? You went to Silicon Valley, your curiosity took you there,

you've done extremely well. A series of successors leading the Liberal Democrats, now Ed Davy, are waving foam fingers around white water rafting and falling off paddle boards trying to keep the attention on intractable and depressing problems like social care in this country.

It's just they are very different choices. Do you feel less of a Lib Dem and less concerned about all of that because of what you've done? Yeah, it is a weird one. In America, there's so much wrong with American politics and I wouldn't advocate. They do actually accept that politicians

have a life after politics. We have this very odd thing. It's a slight, and it almost slightly, I don't know whether you feel this for it. It's a slight sort of implication that if you've been in politics, you somehow aren't allowed or untitled or shouldn't explore other things.

I was in my late 40s when I was spat out of politics. I lost my seat. I wanted to stay in Parliament. I didn't do what David Cameron and others did. I didn't bugger off. I lost my seat. Some people might rejoice at that fact. I lamented it.

I enjoyed being an MP. I felt like so many people in politics, if you were prominent in politics, I started inexperienced but more popular and you end up more experienced and popular. I felt I had more to give. That's not the way the cookie crumbled. The option then, generally in Britain, for people like me,

is you then end up in a sort of penumbra of politics. You go to the House of Lords, you do a little... You fiddle around, and I didn't want to do any of that. I was too young, I had too much energy. I'd actually become very interested during my time in government about the clash between government and big tech. I had endless arguments with Theresa May when she was Home Secretary. Do you remember about this thing called the Snoopers charter that I vetoed

and that they've put onto the statute? So I understand that it is a kind of thing in the British political and kind of media culture that once you've been prominent in politics, people almost don't sort of follow why you might do something afterwards. I kind of don't understand that myself. I've always believed that if you've done public services, as I did for 20 years, it comes to an end,

as my political career did, I hope most reasonable people would think it's okay to try and go and do other things. Well, many do. Many join Times Radio, Nick Clegg. 135,000 pounds is the public declaration of the amount of money you've given to the Lib Dems. Will you be giving more?

Do you mind if I don't give a running commentary on the donations I give? I'm sure I will. But I'm sure I will. Okay, fair enough. What does the Lib Dems story need to be moving forward. You say very early on in the book

that politics is really about telling stories. Some stories in this country are getting way more coverage than others. What's the Lib Dem's story to tell? Well, I was always thankful when my predecessors when I was party leader didn't provide backseat advice.

I'm really not going to give that to Eddie. I think he's doing a great, great job. It's always difficult to be a Lib Dem in British politics just because I mean it's not a wine but you don't tend to have sort of big vested interests in the press you look out for you and stuff so there's always this problem of sort of amplification and of course the Lib Dems have gone through this extraordinary change

you know almost near-death experience in the election of 2015 and then a number of false starts and then of course everything that's buffeted the country, Brexit, COVID and so on I think Ed has clearly found an incredibly strong voice on a bunch of issues that no one else has in British politics whether it's on social care, whether it's on Trump, where no one's speaking with the clarity that he has, the Conservatives aren't, Labor being very mealy-mouthed about it,

reform want to import Trump politics into our country. So I think he's got clear messages. I think it's a party that has its soul in local campaigning, but also needs to engage in the national debate. And I wish them all the best of luck in doing that. Can I just do a quick fire round with you on news topics? No, nothing that you won't have thought. about before. You weren't a huge fan of ID cards before. Are you a fan of them now if one of the

things that they do is deter people from sliding into a grey economy here? Yeah, I'm not a fan, but I have, I'm more open to it now than I was. I think things have changed dramatically in the, in the years since, yeah, I'm, I sort of stopped the ID card experiment from the previous Labour governments. So that's what, 15 years ago. I think in the decade and a half since I would be much more open now to a form of digital identification. I think our lives are now led digitally in a totally different way. We now give so much information to supermarkets and airlines more than we give sometimes to the state. So obviously you need to put in place all sorts of limitations, safeguards and so on.

But I'm more open to the idea that citizenship can be expressed in terms of access to public services, to safety, to how you access the things that you need as an individual and a family through a digital ID system. I'm more open to that now. Interesting. Graham was arrested by fire-oved armed armed police when he arrived at Heathrow because of three tweets that he had made. He is a well-known activist.

Do you think that that is the right use of the police and do you think that's the kind of free speech that you would want to defend? So forgive me. I'm sure I should have done. I haven't actually read his tweets. It was saying that a trans person, born a man appearing in a female safe space, should ultimately be kicked in the balls if you couldn't get them to leave. Okay, I'm not going to try and supplant the police.

I'll tell you what I'm, so I can give you a slightly more generic? I do think, I believe I read this, I think, for a reliable source recently, that the police are now arresting around 30 people a day for these online offences. By the way, on the basis of statutory powers and offences which precede artificial intelligence, precede the Online Safety Act, I do worry that we're losing the talent, if I can put it like that way, or the ability to accept offensive, egregious, heinous, vile, unpleasant speech, but accept that that is part of a free democratic. One of the definitions of freedom is that people can say deeply offensive things,

other people can take offence, but that they can do that openly. I do worry that we've possibly getting the balance a bit wrong, whilst at the same time not doing as much as I think we could do on the stuff like age verification, age checks to keep kids safe online. So I just worry we've probably overdoing the censorious stuff and underdoing the controls and age gating and age verification, need for the things that I think matter the most, which is the protection of children online. Do you have any advice as a former Deputy Prime Minister for Angela Rainer today,

who has had to confess that she got her tax a bit wrong on the sale of a house? Is there something about the role of Deputy Prime Minister where you get all of the scrutiny, but possibly not all of the backup that could avoid you making mistakes in the first place? I honestly don't know the detail of the story. I think it's literally just evolving in the studio now. I'm not sure if it's got anything to do with the generic issue of the post the post anyway is rather different

I was a Deputy Prime Minister of Coalition Government so it's just very different I know the title's the same are actually very very different jobs we were a two-party government this is a one-party government so I probably had more scope than she does

but I... Do you think she's being picked on a bit? I honestly, I just don't I don't know. I really just don't follow the ins and out to this. Maybe she's, maybe she's. I honestly, I just don't know. I don't know. And I, but I, my intuition is that it's nothing to do with whether she's deputy prime minister. It's just to do with whether she's paid the right council tax on the right property. Yeah. Do you know what? It's quite refreshing to hear an ex-politician say I simply don't know. It's good. It's good. Final question. You nailed down the triple lock

on pensions when you were in government. How old are you now? I'm 58. You're 58. Okay. So should the triple lock still, be on your pension when you come to state pension age, and would you take a state pension? On the viability of the triple lock, I'd be open to change, because for those who don't know, it's, what is it, it's 2.5% inflation or... Wages. Is that right? Yes.

Whichever is highest. And it has led to some very, very sharp increases whilst, of course, there have had to be savings elsewhere and I think if the projections are that that's just not sustainable we've just this week heard that we now face the highest long-term borrowing costs of any developed economy

the highest in over quarter of a century we're in really you know we are really now skating on thin ice as a country and I really worry about the fiscal implications I would be open to looking at maybe you don't even just scrap it you meet you can make it I'm sure there are amendments you can make

which guarantee pensioners a decent uplift when they receive the state pension but doesn't do it in a way that breaks the bank. And should the state pension be available to everybody? Well, there's always the age-old debate about means tests. It's not just about pensions, it's about any sort of universal benefit. One people say it should only go to people, which is very attractive, of course it is.

People like me don't need some of these benefits. Then the other countervailing argument is that if you have some people who aren't recipients, that benefits, they kind of become more and more disassociated from the welfare system as a whole and they don't want to pay their taxes and you get a good bit of a two-tier system and all that the administrative costs are high. Honestly, on this one, a bit like my earlier answers to you, I would just be led by the evidence? Just what, you know, would you really save a lot if you make it discretionary? What would be the costs of trying to make it much more complicating

and administer it to some and not to others? You've done a very, very good job of not answering the question there and I admire you in I haven't answered the question about them. No, would you take the state pensioner? Oh, I haven't thought about what I'm going to do with my own pensioner. I don't feel like a pensioner. I'm 58. Nick Clegg, How to Save the Internet, the threat to global connection in the age of AI and political conflict,

is his latest book. It is out now. It is in hardback. Any thoughts on that interview? We are Jane and Fee at Times.com. As you've read the book, and I haven't, is it like a pleasure to read it, or is it slightly dense? It's both. So I did really enjoy reading it because I like to imagine that we are at a time where we can still do something about some of the darker aspects of the internet. And that's the whole kind of manifesto of the book. Some of it, I found the stuff where he's describing life in Silicon Valley really interesting. But I wanted a bit more on that. But I assume for legal reasons, there's loads of stuff that he's not allowed to talk about that he bore witness to at Meta. I'm not saying that in any contentious way. It's just companies like that always ask you to sign non-disclosure agreement.

And they certainly wouldn't be letting him tell us absolutely every experience he's had because we know that other employees who've left the building are definitely not allowed to talk about what happens there. So that was a little bit frustrating. But I would recommend it if you just want to kind of keep your finger on a pulse about the internet and AI, then it is an easy book to read. it's not it doesn't ask you to jump over

an awful lot of hurdles of prior knowledge in order to get engaged with it but I think as with every nearly every book actually that comes our way that is about a specific topic it has left me wondering why people have to write 60,000 words because I would have devoured this

if it was 25 that's interesting but I think that about nearly every non-fiction book that I read at the moment. I don't want 60,000 words on the topic. It's just too much. Yeah, I mean, it certainly appeals to my lazy nature.

Write a successful short book. But I don't understand why people are still having to conform to a really you know, you're asking the reader to devote a lot of time if you're writing kind of 300 pages and in an age

and it's ironic, isn't it, if you're writing a book about the digital age, because everything out there is under 2 minutes 40. or under 240 characters or, you know, you can just digest it while you're doing 17 other things. So that would be my point. Yeah. Why didn't you just do a quick TikTok?

Well, I'm sure that'll come. Right. He will. I'm sure. Well, actually, the Lib Dems do well on TikTok, don't they? Do they? They do, yeah. Is he still a Lib Dem? I suppose he is. Yeah.

Yes, he is. He says he is. Yes. He is. Yeah, no, I think he is. He's donating to the party openly. Okay. I haven't got any more knowledge about them. Please don't ask me anything else. What star sign is he? No.

Right. Thank you for that. And thank you for listening. And we are back tomorrow with more of whatever this has been. And it has to be said it's got a combination of all sorts of things. I think we can settle for that. Good evening. I think he's Pisces. I'll let you know tomorrow. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.