Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Powerful side-eye (with Elizabeth Day and Sara Collins)

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Jane and Fi reminisce on romantic partners of yesteryear but there are some conditions... They also muse of ageism, 'dreaded' wheat and US politics. Plus, broadcaster Elizabeth Day and author Sara Collins discuss their new podcast ‘How To…Write A Book!’ Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, absence makes the heart grow fonder. That's why. And if you live in a different city, she keeps away from him. Well, to some it's a perfect marriage lesson. Actually, that's also true. Yeah. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on.

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Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Hello. This is a podcast called Off Air with me, Jane Garvey, and her... Well, if you're going to put it like that... It's Fee Clover. Hello, everybody. I'm Fee. Long-suffering. Well, there's always another side to the story. Is there?

Let's talk to... Let's story is there let's talk to let's bring in let's talk to let um kamala harris kamala harris i must get the name right she has put out a video hasn't she saying how you pronounce her name well she did that a while back didn't she because when she first came to national prominence in america There were just so many different interpretations. And I really loved it because it's her teaching some kids how to say it, isn't it? And you just think, well, if a kid can get it right now, we should be able to get it right. Although I've watched the video and I'm still a bit perplexed.

Well, I think she's definitely going Kamala, but we've been told it's like a comma, Kamala. But I don't want... I'm not going to dispute the woman's own interpretation. No, obviously that's the one person you do need to. So I'm going to go Kamala. Kamala. Kamala. Because I thought she said it was like karma with a la on the end.

Kamala. Yeah. You can see why we're struggling. If anybody in the States or indeed elsewhere has the definitive and very easy way to just instruct us on how to do it but Alison says anyway

I couldn't believe that on the very day after the competent Kamala Harris was nominated to run for president, you're not talking about her instead I thought you were generously talking about the book written by the ultra oh excuse me sneeze you're not supposed to be able to sneeze when you're talking like that apologies to everybody that wasn't a super spreading event uh you were not talking about

Kamala Harris but you were talking instead generously about the book written by the ultra right-wing woman-hating racist JD Vance who Trump has pulled in to run as his vice-presidential nominee. Alison still sends best wishes, though. Thank you, Alison. Well, I've now got the book. You've got your copy of what my daughter thought was called Hillbilly Energy, but it's actually called Hillbilly...

Elegy. Elegy. And I've done about 35 pages, and you must have almost finished, yeah. So I've done about half of it. And I suppose, Alison, I mean, I am intrigued by J.D. Vance and the reaction to that book

when it was first published was a huge round of applause from the liberal elite, wasn't it? I thought people gobbled it up. This is telling us interesting stuff. So I'm reading it because I don't know enough about the poor communities of the appalachian mountains so i'm sorry if it's offended

you i mean it's but but it's not a it's not a competition i i really want to know more about kamala harris as well but yeah but i am learning and i am learning a lot about the Rust Belt and what's gone wrong and just how disconnected those communities feel. And do you know what? So far, and I don't know whether you think the same thing, but J.D. Vance is very hard on his own people. Well, he accuses them of being a bit work-shy, doesn't he? Very lazy and, I i mean he doesn't

fight shy of using that word and also just really so myopic that they can't see how the world has changed outside their community and what they need to do within it so i i'm alison i'm finding it interesting and and i but it but in no it doesn't mean that I don't want to talk about Kamala Harris. No. Because I do. No, Alison, I'd absolutely echo everything that you said there. I mean, I'll take your woman-hating, because he has suddenly announced, or is it sudden,

that he's anti-abortion, he's not having any truck at all with abortion under any circumstances, and that includes rape and incest. And for me, that is unforgivable to take that stance. You will never know what it's like to be a woman who is pregnant when she doesn't want to be. I'm not sure. I mean, I just cannot defend that anti-abortion stance.

I just think it's appalling. I haven't found in the bit of the book I've read evidence of his racism, but, I mean, I'll take it. I don't know. Have you noticed that? Not yet. No. But I think I'm 121 pages in. OK, well.

And Kamala Harris, is she perfect? No, of course not. I mean, absolutely not. No, but do you know what I have thought? Because obviously we just get the headlines over here that if the negative campaign ads that have already been made about her focus on the fact that she laughs so much that's just a negative campaign as the democrats can make about the

republican candidate which is have we got long enough to detail all of the criminal convictions answer no then oh i mean what does that tell you it's um it will be a really interesting contest but also what people keep on saying jane is uh it doesn't matter who you appoint as vice president it doesn't matter whether there's an assassination attempt it doesn't matter whether there's a change in the top ticket nothing turns the dial and you just think wow well what would what would it take? You'll have to tell us. We just don't know. Sharon is in North Yorkshire.

Interested to hear your thoughts on Doug Emhoff. Is it Emhoff or Emhoff? Currently being known as the second gentleman. He is the husband of Kamala Harris and his possible, though perhaps unlikely, ascension to first gentleman. I wonder where the term came from and if it only applies to a spouse, could it also apply to a partner as well? Is this term only used in the States or could we apply it in our everyday life? Sometimes I might wish to refer to my husband as the first gentleman and on other days I'd rank him much further down.

I'm sure your husband's lovely. 85% of the time, Sharon. Do we have any thoughts, she says. Well, we probably have. Second gentleman is just silly, isn't it? It's just silly. But then First Lady is also completely preposterous. Well, it is preposterous, but at least it gives a credibility to the role, doesn't it? I mean, you know, First Ladies throughout history

have done shed loads whilst in the White House all the way through time. And you could argue that Melania Trump was perhaps one of the less effective First Ladies. Well, you're being very, very kind there. I think that's incredibly diplomatic. Less effective. Let's settle for that description.

I don't think... She's like... She's Sphinx-like, isn't she? Well, that's also Sphinx-like when she appears, which is less than once every full moon, isn't it? I thought the couple's... You couldn't call it an embrace, but an attempt at a kiss on the platform was one of the...

Have you seen the Twitter meme doing the rounds? I'm going to send it to you later. I'll flag it up on my ex thingy. Because it's just she does a side eye when she's on stage at the recent Milwaukee convention

and it is quite something. It's a powerful side eye. But they're still very much in love. Very much. Well, absence makes the heart grow fonder. That's why. And if you live in a different city, she keeps away from him.

Well, to some it's a perfect marriage lesson. Not that. No, also true. Right, there are some fantastic emails. Do you know what? We've got so many at the moment. And why would that be? Is it because people have got a bit more time on their hands? Maybe it's holiday time. Right, there are some fantastic emails. Do you know what? We've got so many at the moment. And is that because... Why would that be?

Is it because people have got a bit more time on their hands? Maybe it's holiday time for some people. Yeah. But anyway, we're loving them. And I think we've got a... Have we got an email special coming up, Eve? Who knows? At some stage, yeah.

Double thumbs up. Oh, by the way, the guest today is Sarah Collins and Elizabeth Day talking about Elizabeth's new venture, which is Podclasses. Not podcast, but Podclasses. And she's starting off with 12 episodes. I think it is 12 episodes on how to write a book. And so you can hear about that a little bit later, because I imagine quite a few people amongst our listenership have got a little idea brewing, but they're not quite sure how to go about it. Yep, it's a clever idea.

This one comes from Claire in St Albans, and it is a critical one, and here we go. Following on from my praise of the podcast in my spirit-level email, of which I stand by, I wanted to give some feedback about your interview with Trevor Phillips, 10th of July. Trevor was interesting, astute, candid and genuine in the interview. I enjoyed what he had to say and how he said it.

However, I was surprised and I have to admit disappointed at the way Fee leaned into how his age was relevant throughout the interview. It bordered on direct ageism. Perhaps a nod to his length of experience and dedication over many years would have been appropriate, but I felt an edge of negativity and jest to the questioning as if you felt he was over the hill. I was particularly uncomfortable when you suggested him

similar to Biden because of their age, when actually Trevor is closer in age to Jane. Trevor did not rise to these digs. How old is Trevor? So he's 71, I think. Did not rise to these digs and maintained professional and open discussion, which I was impressed with. I can appreciate that age doesn't bode well for women in this line of work and

wonder whether your approach may have been slightly coloured by that. And of course, that I understand. However, I would enjoy listening to what Trevor has to say again, but I'd be surprised if he came back on the pod. Well, Claire, I suppose my defense of that would be it was a week where we were talking almost solidly about Biden's age with reference to politics and I was genuinely interested in the perspective of a 70 year old man because as a 55 year old woman I'm just further away from the experience of an 81 year old man so that was the point of asking Trevor. But I would completely, I mean, I take on board your criticism, and I'm never going to say that anybody is wrong to find an interview uncomfortable. I found it uncomfortable when I tried to make a

joke about asking him the question about age. If this is getting too meta, just go make a cup of tea. And I was very grateful to him for kind of laughing about it too because he knew that what I was basically saying was, you're old, how do you feel about another old man? But he was gracious in the way that he took it on board and I really enjoyed hearing his thoughts about it. So absolutely take that on the chin and I hope you would come back on the pod. Actually, I didn't feel that we'd left on particularly bad terms.

I've left on worse. Yeah, I certainly have. There was an interesting... We were talking about age the other day, about whether 16-year-olds should vote, and you said yesterday that Conservative voters were going to die out, or a fair chunk of them would just not be around... For an election in 2029.

Because the average age of Tory voters is now so old. No, it's not Tory voters, it's Conservative Party members. Right. Oh, OK. Right, slightly different. So I think you could argue that 16-year-olds perhaps are too young to vote. I'm not saying I would, but people do argue that. And you could also argue that perhaps if you're over 85, should you be allowed to vote in a general election, which may really, let's be realistic,

the result of which may not impact on you all that much. I don't know. If you were young, you might be tempted to make that argument, mightn't you? Very much so. I've got nothing against 16-year-olds voting. I think the assumption that a clever 16-year-old is more stupid because they're 16 than any other demographic in the country is false.

I think there's an enthusiasm and curiosity about politics amongst the young that we ignore at our peril. Well, you could argue as well that you could galvanise their interest by giving them the vote. Totally. And they understand their world is so, so different to ours. There are bits of it that we're, you know, we're just not paying enough attention to

that they will want to amplify, so we should just get out of the way. My big political confession is that my first ever political meeting was a meeting of the young Conservatives. Oh, well, that's... Well, it was... I only went once. Have you kissed a Tory? Gosh, probably... No. Well, I don't know.

I don't always ask. You do have a Conservative Party membership. If so, I'd like to see it, please. It's not the first question you ask. Maybe it should be. I just need to mention mel who sent in some we were talking much earlier in the year so well remembered mel about the demise of the dark chocolate bounty um i hope the enclosed as she says are a suitable substitute in spite of the

name i did take one out of the bag to sample myself yes i did notice that mel so um we do get gifts unsolicited and we're always very grateful for them but I thought it was very wise of you to just try one yourself um I did try one too they weren't great in my my view is that they were not as nice but do you know what she did kids in trying them and deciding that Jane Garvey Jane Susan Garvey didn't like them she then just put the whole lot in the bin and even I was just like no we them, because we've got a deck here that everybody leaves stuff that they brought back from holiday so everyone can have a little.

We get some very peculiar foreign donations on that shelf. But they're always eaten, Jane. They're always eaten. That's what wires me. Very wasteful. Okay, I shouldn't have done that, Mel, and I'm sorry. It was a health and safety thing as far as I was concerned. I don't know whether the contents of the bar I bit into had aged all all that well so i don't know how long you'd hung on to them

anyway much more importantly mel says she'll be heading back to the states in five weeks time and listen to this to undertake a tandem swim around manhattan island with my friend and fellow listener beth after encephalitis in august that was Beth, and a severely broken ankle in December, me, we figure we have one good body between us to get round the 28 miles, swimming down the East River, Harlem and Hudson. Wish us luck. Um, Mel, is that wise to do that, do you think?

I hope you are both, or I mean, good luck, Beth, good luck, Mel. But I don't know, a tandem swim around Manhattan Island. Sounds a big ask to me. But look, they're obviously braver women than me. Well, I think they're swimming in cleaner waters than here. Really. If you were going to attempt to, what would the equivalent be? Swim around the Isle of Wight.

I think there'll be bits and pieces that you'd probably want to avoid at the moment. Southern water. Never been to the Isle of Wight. I think there'll be bits and pieces that you'd probably want to avoid at the moment. Southern water. Never been to the Isle of Wight. Have you never been to the Isle of Wight? Never kissed a Tory? No, I didn't. I can only assume there's a look emerging here. Have you kissed a Tory?

Undoubtedly. Yeah, I might. If you're going to go back to the 80s, I probably, at university, I probably did. Because I think Birmingham at one point had the most active university conservative club. I was not a member. No. But also, I don't really like that everybody in the Conservative Party is, you know...

Well, they're not. No, they're not all. No. No. We live in a world where not everybody wants to do politics. Indeed, 99.9% of us don't want to do politics. So we can only work with the politicians prepared to do politics. And they are a varied breed and none of them are perfect.

But at least they're doing it. Oh, I totally agree. I was on a tube train this morning with an incredibly well-known Conservative politician, frontbencher, and I did think, gosh, my first thought seeing you on the tube is, is that wise? Are you safe? And I thought, wow, that's quite something, isn't it? It was just odd to see a very important politician in the wild, Jane.

OK, I did quite frequently see Philip Hammond, former Tory Chancellor, on the Tube. He was obviously a man not unfamiliar with public transport. And I suppose, yes, because I think he was Chancellor when I saw him. I do remember thinking, oh. But that's weird, isn't it? That's not right, because they've gone into politics to represent people. Of course you should be able to use the Tube.

Yeah, it was strange. Can we just do tennis balls and fluff before you entertain us with your incredibly well-crafted cue into our interview today? Fluff and bounce. This one comes from Sarah, who says, responding to your question

as to why tennis players inspect a new set of balls and then choose to discard some and keep others the key to all of this is fluff there are six balls in play for every professional match and there's a ball change every seven games in tennis as everyone will know some rallies are longer than others so during those seven games some balls get more fluffed than others they lose their compression and fluff up so when serving a player will look for a firmer less rough ball for their first serve as it will be quicker and pop more. For their second serve

they prefer the softer more fluffed ball as it's easier for them don't clip this people, OK? More fluffed ball as it's easier for them on their second serve. These balls are a little slower

and will spin more as there is more surface area due to the fluff. Isn't that technical? That is something I honestly hadn't thought about, so that's wonderful. And Sarah ends by telling us,

when all things are considered, the likes of Nadal, Federer, Murray and Serena are considered to be some of the greatest fluffers of all time. But to me, that's not as odd as the bizarre practice of bowlers in cricket doing that funny thing where they roll the ball down their... And they rub the ball down the front of their trousers. Yeah, and they do it quite consistently

and sometimes they spit on it. But that's, I find that much easier to understand because that's about getting a shine, isn't it? So it actually spins more. Yeah, I find it faintly erotic. Very faintly. Rancid cereals. Ever kissed a cricketer?

Not a professional On the train from Venice to Rome listening to Off Air and chuckling away as exactly that one cereal packet is the source of many a conversation in our house as my husband jokes with the kids which cereal is the dreaded wheat? This was after you referenced that packet of cereal.

We've all got three or four in my case. It's sort of two-thirds full still, bought on a bit of a whim, and you thought it might be tasty. In our case, it's always bought for a guest. Or a guest you think might enjoy it. They don't, and we don't. If my nephews are coming, I buy jumbo loads of Weetabix in.

Don't think either of them likes it. But, hey, I always associate Weetabix with, you know, young men who want to be fit and it just lies in the cupboard for months on end. Anyway, dreaded wheat is what we call it. Dreaded wheat named after my uncle stayed in our house to pet sit, but left the shredded wheat he bought

and none of us like it. Anyway, my husband takes great pleasure in finding the dreaded wheat cereal of the month and then he painstakingly eats it, being a martyr to the cause of not having waste thank you naomi i have a wonderful time traveling between venice and rome um your husband he sounds like a useful person not prepared for any kind of waste and sits there manfully eating the really crappy cereal that nobody else wants well that is dedication to the cause, isn't it? Well done, you. Can I just add this one in from Stephanie?

Because it just, it made me a little bit surprised, a little bit worried on my tube journey in. I just want to reassure your guests that I got her Mean Girls reference and thought it very apt. Now, this was the fantastic political correspondent, Alicia Fitzgerald, who was on the programme. And she comes in to do a kind of political roundup

and she made a reference to mean girls off the back of everybody wearing ear bandages at the Republican Convention. And she left it hanging there because Jane and I was tumbleweed in the studio. I had no idea what she meant. But I think it was cut out tops. So one person had a cut out top

and then everybody had a cut out top. So it's that kind of thing. Oh, I see. Yeah. Anyway. Contagion. Yeah. Stephanie says,

I love listening to you both, the show on Catch Up and the podcast at night. My children also now ask for Jane and Fee to help them drift off. Now, Stephanie, that's a bit of a worry. Wait for this. My girls listen together, aged nine and five, and my 11-year-old son puts you on his Alexa device in his room

and I did immediately, like a Rolodex, Stephanie, in my head of all of the inappropriate conversations that we've had. I'm not sure that's ideal. Is it just the fact that our voices are sort of you know lull if we're lulling a lovely child to sleep then I guess I'm okay with it just tell him not to

listen actually listen just have it on but Stephanie goes on to say I have them on one day time delay to make sure that there isn't anything they shouldn't hear so thank you for that Stephanie that being said porn week gave me the chance I have them on one day time delay to make sure that there isn't anything they shouldn't hear. So thank you for that, Stephanie. Oh, okay, right.

That being said, porn week gave me the chance to have some really useful age-appropriate conversations with both my 11 and nine-year-olds. The youngest asked me recently if you know that we are fans and I said I'd write to let you know. So if you are the daughter or the son of a very lovely mum called Stephanie,

then Jane and I say welcome aboard. Good night. Sweet dreams. Don't have nightmares. And it's lovely that you're listening. It is lovely. Yeah, do sleep well. Now, I just want to mention this because Eva, our producer,

came up with this just brilliant tip yesterday about on the last day of your holidays, was the day, the penultimate day, was it? Do your washing and it'll dry in the sun. I love Eve's tips. I want more. Yeah. And then you can bring it back and you'll have clean washing in the... I'll tell you what,

the last place that you stayed in, they didn't have an iron, though. Yes. Yes, it's true, that. But we don't judge. Do you know I was doing ironing before eight o'clock this morning? Sorry, I'm just... I'm just opening a tinny. She is seeking help for that. Leo is in LA. Thank you, Leo. Hope you're well. He says, I tried hand washing a pair of jeans at a youth hostel in Cte in 1988 when i was 16 i only found out that the powdered detergent i bought locally was in fact drain cleaner

when the crystals started dissolving the denim i shook in surprise and if i hadn't been wearing glasses i'd be short of two eyes today very glad i am short-sighted wish they taught me greek instead of french at school thank you leo leo says you bring a little sanity to the world well he's in la so he'll need something won't he i'm so sorry ah right uh only saved by specs drain cleaner is i put it down my shower thing and it's the most it's the fiery old brew isn't it it really is so what it did well it literally dissolved his gecks he didn't have any left voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can

navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone there's a book in almost everyone and if that person is you this next item is for you it features the author and podcast queen elizabeth day who's got a new project the pod class now the first series uh is about how you write a book it's called how to write a book and in 12 episodes you can learn everything you need to know about this quite mysterious world actually publishing in the company of a successful author a publisher and and an agent. I've been talking to Elizabeth and to the author who features in the series. Her name is Sarah Collins, and she won

the Costa First Novel Award for her gothic romance, The Confessions of Franny Langton. You'll hear from Sarah in a moment. But first, here's Elizabeth. It's the new iteration of podcasting, I modestly believe. Hey, go for it. Which is a masterclass in podcast form. And the wonderful thing about that is that it's free to listen to. So many masterclasses, particularly when it comes to writing a book, are A, very expensive, and B, often residential. So you need to take time out of your life and money out of your bank balance. How to write a book is 12 weeks free to listen to unless you want to binge all at once, and you can just your bank balance. How to write a book is 12 weeks free to listen to unless you want to binge all at once, then you can just pay £3.99 to get access to that.

And you can fit it into your life. So you can listen to it on the school run, when you're doing a workout, when you're doing the dishes, on your way to work. And the idea is that yes, you learn a life skill. If you had a dream of writing a book, we can make that a reality. But it's also super entertaining because the three hosts that I've assembled are wonderful powerhouse women who not only know everything that they're talking about and are able to offer insights and practical tips, but are great friends with each other. So it's entertaining and hilarious as well as being accessible and educational. Well, we're going to talk to one of the people you've got involved in a moment, but there are two others as well.

So you have an author, an agent and a publisher. And they are? They are powerhouse publisher Charmaine Lovegrove, who is MD of her own. I always get this wrong. Is it imprint or sex? Anyway, she's a powerhouse publisher. She's the most senior black woman in European publishing. Then Nell Andrew, who is a super agent, former agent of the year at the British Book Awards.

And then the third, and last by no means least, is best-selling author Sarah Collins, who's also a Booker Prize judge this year. Let's bring her in. Go on then. Sitting modestly on Zoom, but lovely to have you with us. How did you get involved? First of all, do you think this is a good idea? Delighted to be involved and delighted to be here modestly by Zoom. Elizabeth invited me, I can't remember when, but she sent me a WhatsApp and said she had something to talk to me about, which sounded very ominous, but it wasn't. and said she had something to talk to me about,

which sounded very ominous, but it wasn't. As soon as she explained the concept, I was there. I was there because it is such a genius premise. It's one of those premises that you think someone should have thought of long ago and didn't. It's like if a podcast and a masterclass had a baby. I just think an exceptionally great idea. But also I was there because I have written a book and it was genuinely the hardest thing I've ever done. And I have to say that I have also been a partner in a law firm

at the same time as raising five children. And I do mean it when I say writing a book was much harder than that. And I really wish that something like this had been available when I was writing my book, because part of the difficulty is that it can feel incredibly lonely. And it can also feel like what you're doing is terrible. You know, it's this feeling of sitting with imperfection, which can be quite sort of disorienting. And what we are doing, what I hope listeners will feel from this podcast is that someone is sort of sitting metaphorically alongside you and holding your hand through the process. But more importantly, saying, this is what it feels like for almost everyone who writes a book. It is difficult. These are the difficulties. This is the kind of collective wisdom about overcoming it. And this is a kind of insider's peek at the stuff that you won't get from the creative writing textbooks or workshops.

Can you just be completely immodest and tell everybody exactly what you wrote and just how good it was? Well, I'll leave that to someone else to say whether it was good or not. I'll do it. I still think it could have been better. I still think it could have been better. But I wrote The Confessions of Franny Langton, which won a Costa Award, and also adapted it for the screen myself for ITV and Britbox.

So I segued from novels into screenwriting and have loved every minute of it. The most difficult thing of all, Elizabeth, is to have the idea to kickstart your writing. Then you can move on to the other stuff, like finding time to do it. And as Sara outlines there, not everybody has got capacity in their day to sit down and carve out a couple of hours to do the work. But can we just start with the idea and then having faith in the idea? Well, the first two episodes are about idea because you're right, it's very

difficult to know whether an idea has legs and whether it's worth pursuing. And Sarah has this beautiful metaphor that she reaches for that when you find an idea, there's this beautiful connection of technique and mystery. And it's a bit like going on a successful first hinge date. You get that funny feeling in your stomach and you're like, no, this is worth it. And that comes with a little bit of arrogance. That's something that Nell Andrews says again in the first episode,

because you need to be able to carve out time in your life to pursue it. And sometimes that is difficult because it's taking time away from your job or your family or an hour that you might spend going to the gym. But I firmly believe it is possible if you feel supported in that.

And I think that's what How to Write a Book can offer. We are on the hand writing community. You do not need to feel isolated in this process, which, as Sarah says, can be really hard and it can be really challenging. And I don't know about you, Sarah, but I had a full-time job when I wrote my first three books I mean and I still have other jobs alongside writing books but for those first three books I wrote in my lunch break and anytime I could spare at weekends or on train journeys

on plane journeys so I do believe that if you have a passion it's about having enough self-belief to pursue that passion and to know it's worth it. So, Sarah, tell me, how long had you lived with the idea for your book? I think I had lived with it all of my life. I think part of the mystery about where ideas come from is that if you're a writer, you're synthesising all of your life experiences and your own reading. And that somehow gets filtered into the process, especially of the first book. So mine is a Gothic romance, which centers a Black woman. And I think that very much came from the fact

that I had been a teenage bookworm, absolutely obsessed by and addicted to the Brontes. But I'd always been left with this kind of frustration and question really about why a Black character had never been this sort of center stage in a Gothic romance like that. And I think that's part of the power of writing is that ideas really can come from anywhere and they can represent something deep in your subconscious that might connect with readers, because you find when you work on them long enough and lovingly enough that readers have felt the same way that you have. That's the sort of beauty and passion and mystery of writing.

That there's a lot of mystery around the whole publishing process and about how you immerse yourself or just even getting a foot in the door. Elizabeth, does everyone need an agent? just even getting a foot in the door. Elizabeth, does everyone need an agent? That's such a good question. And I'm not sure that they necessarily do need one, but I do think that it makes the entire process a lot easier. Can I just go really, I mean,

do you have to pay one as soon as you speak to one? No, they take a commission. No, exactly. So if anyone is asking for an upfront fee, then say no. But that's why I was very passionate about having an agent and a publisher on this podcast. Because again, that's something that often gets overlooked. In the creative process, we have this beautiful vision of being struck by the poetic muse. And then we forget that actually publishing is a business and it is industry and we need to be savvy about that.

So we also have a two-part episode on publishing right at the very end where it answers questions like, do I need an agent? How do I find one? How do I approach them? Okay. And did you feel, were you, Sarah, I hope you don't mind me asking, a total outsider to the publishing world? Before having my book published, yes. And I think that outsider's perspective will be really familiar to a lot of people because I was such a bookworm and I loved books so much, writers were my superheroes, that it felt like this magical, mystical place that the door just wouldn't open to. There was no way to get the key. And so I think demystifying that is really important. And the point that Elizabeth makes, it's a it's a business. It's also a job if you're lucky enough to have a book published and one that you should treat as work,

which means being professional, showing up on time, trying to meet deadlines. All of that, I think, is really important for aspiring writers. And it's the kind of practical advice that we do cover on the podcast. I have to say, it was also really interesting for me as a writer to sit across the table from a publisher and an agent. And one of the things I learned from them that really surprised me is that, yes, this is a business, but they are each as in love with books and writing as I am. There's a real sense that they've connected to this work from a sense of purposefulness and joy and, you know, really wanting to make an impact on a community of readers that I thought was really encouraging, actually, because publishing

can be so much about the business and about who's selling well and who isn't. And I would love to add there that Sara's completely right, that a lot of the conversations on how to write a book are about our adoration for books, for reading and for popular culture. So even if you have never

actually wanted to write a book, I think that this is a podcast for anyone who is passionate about reading, about understanding how great books get written. From Jane Fallon to Jane Austen, from Toni Morrison to Tom Ripley, from Succession to Cool Runnings. Those are all references

that my beautiful hosts reach for. So it's a really wonderful listen for anyone who just wants to be surrounded by books. And for anyone listening to this who's got an idea and it is just an idea, maybe six or seven lines, is that what is called a pitch? Well, actually, in our sort of introduction to the series, we talk about interrogating an idea because I think one of the things you learn when you become a writer is that the number one rule is never be satisfied. So we do talk about interrogating the idea to make sure that you have the DNA of a novel in it, that you've thought about whether there's conflict in your premise, that you've thought about the protagonist. And also, as Elizabeth says, whether you're going to fall in love with this thing because you might have to spend quite a lot of time working with it.

And then the pitch is something that an agent and a publisher can help you to kind of distill in the process. So what you need to do is work that idea until you have developed the best kind of pitch you can, make it as concise as possible. And then if you're lucky enough, as I was, my agent actually really sort of distilled the idea for me and gave me a pitch that I then wrote my novel towards, which I found extremely helpful. Okay, that's an interesting way of going about it. Well, actually, Nell, the agent, the resident agent on How to Write a Book, had this brilliant idea that had never struck me before. If you are a first time author, and you've got the manuscript, or you've got a sample three chapters, a really good thing to do is to batch agents. So you would send out your sample chapters or your manuscript to five agents at first, and you would wait for their feedback. And hopefully their feedback will be, this is

marvellous, can I sign you up? If it isn't, they might give you constructive feedback that you can then implement into the manuscript if you agree with it. And then you batch and send it out to the next five. So you're not doing it all at once would you expect to hear something from everybody some people are better than others nell prides herself on always replying to any submission and actually i have to say my experience which as a first time i i write fiction and non-fiction and this podcast is for all areas of writing. But when I first wrote my novel, and it got sent out to five publishers, and every single one of them rejected it, I did actually get an email saying exactly why I was a terrible writer.

So my experience is that most people, I suppose, because it's an industry based on writing, most people are quite good at writing back. I haven't thought about that. I mean, surely they, of all people, should be able to write. Exactly. Why had I never thought about that? Okay, but it's like you can't get a phone number

from British Telecom, but that's not part of it. I've tried contacting them on a number of occasions. So have I. Did you have to deal with rejection or were you just snapped up immediately? I mean, I always say that writing is 95% rejection and 5% caffeine. You know, it is dealing with rejection and learning how to deal with rejection is such an important professional skill. And we do talk about this as well. And it's something that I had to kind of I had to come to recognise this.

something that I had to kind of, I had to come to recognize this, you know, we take rejection personally, we feel like it is some kind of judgment on our character, generally, that's human nature. Writers have to learn how to take it professionally, by which I mean, and I'm going to shout out one of Elizabeth's other projects, because she talks about failure as a kind of process of data acquisition. And I think that is so transferable to writing life because every rejection, in particular, if it's the kind of rejection that is kind enough and sensitive enough to include feedback, is something you can learn from and take to sharpen the book and to hone your craft and get better. But it's also something, and this comes with practice, that you have to learn not to take personally,

not to be dissuaded by it. And one of the things that I like to do is actually read great rejection stories. I love hearing the fact that a powerhouse like Elizabeth, whose writing I think is among the best in the business, and adherence to rejection stories. And we have to keep telling people this, that, you know, we don't come fully formed with these wonderful careers. It's important for aspiring writers to know that

people who are on the bestseller lists were one day where they are now. Do you think, Sarah, that we've still got a case, certainly in this country, of too many of the wrong people, the same sort of people, churning out books. Well, I mean, I've been reading the same sort of people happily for a very long time. You know, I love books and read so broadly that I'm sure many of those people have been on my list. What's been really exciting for me, and I've been in publishing since 2019, is that it has been so different. is that it has been so different. My experience has been that this industry is really diverse and that there are so many stories being told now

that I wish had been available for me to pluck off the shelves when I was a teenager. But I'm glad they're available for my kids. And also that there are people like Elizabeth, I'm going to give her another shout out, who has, you know, her mission for this podcast is to take up space in a context that has been dominated by the people this country traditionally views as experts, you know, the sort of white middle aged man. And as she always

hastens to add, there's nothing wrong with white middle aged men. Well, actually, I'm not sure I'd entirely agree. I'm married to one, so I have to say that. I do look at I do look at the sort of thumbnail for this podcast on the charts and think there are three black women who have been brought into this project by Elizabeth because we are experts at our craft, not because we are black and how singularly important that is to me. And, you know, it does almost make me feel quite weepy. It is truly extraordinary. And so it's a great time to be in publishing. Things are changing and I think they're only going to continue to get better. I'm really glad to hear that. Honestly, Sarah, can we just end with both of you just recommending a book that we could enjoy over the next couple of weeks? Sarah, what are you reading at the moment? Well, I am just starting Enter Ghost by Isabella Hamid, which was shortlisted for the Women's Prize, and Brotherless Night, which won the Women's Prize. So there you go. I've recommended two for the price of one. I have

cheated. But I think they're both, well, they both look like they're going to be exceptional. Thank you very much. Can I have two as well? Okay, so I would recommend Long Island by Colne Tabin, which I loved. I loved Brooklyn. It's a sequel to Brooklyn. You don't need to have read Brooklyn. Nicer is a hopeless word, but that's the one I'd apply. But it's very apt for this book

because it's so much about sort of repression and yearning and emotional politeness. And I'm also going to choose Another Irish Man. I feel terrible now because we've just been talking about the lack of diversity at the top of the podcast charts. But The Bee Sting by Paul Murray,

which I actually read last year. I'm obsessed with that book it's cinematic in scope it's personal residence they will have you entertained by the sun lounger yeah i i honestly think this is a really good idea i'm irritated that you've had it elizabeth but i'm happy to plug it seriously um thank you for coming in and sarah thank you so much for that that's brilliant and congratulations to you and i think everybody who's just got that yearning to get a book Thank you. No, seriously, thank you for coming in. And Sarah, thank you so much for that. That's brilliant. Congratulations to you. Thank you so much for having us. And I think everybody who's just got that yearning to get a book out of them, they need to listen to this.

And as Elizabeth has pointed out, it doesn't cost you anything. So it's How To Write a Book, and it's the first of Elizabeth's... Elizabeth's podclasses. And what's coming next? Are you doing car maintenance? That's number five. Is it? Okay.

Next is How to Date. Oh, well, I probably should listen to that. Yes, good one for you. Absolutely. You'll have to come on as a guest. No, thank you. I really hope that has inspired a few of you to get going with that book

that you've just got mouldering away in your brain and desperate to bring to the world. I suppose, actually, one of the most important things about writing a book is to have the time in your life to write the book. And not everybody has that time, but maybe you have where you can carve it out. A very, very helpful agent once said to me,

you just should never even bother because it's there in so many people's sightline that it would be a relaxing thing to do. It would be a wonderful money-spinning thing to do, whatever it is. And she said, you have to want to get out of your head... What's in your head? Something. Yeah.

It just has to be, whether it's your personal story, your gripe against somebody, an amazing plot twist. She said, you have to be kept awake at night by something that's in your head that you need to get down on the page. Otherwise, why would anybody want to buy it? wake at night by something that's in your head that you need to get down on the page otherwise why would anybody yeah want to buy and i just thought oh that is a useful thing to know it has to be an itch yes cannot resist it has to be burning inside you and then it makes sense to the reader hospital appointment next week right okay um enjoyed your emails and the bants at

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