Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Prickly love Down Under (with Rob Rinder)

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Jane and Fi are pinching their necks and trying not to corpse in this episode... it's not working. They also chat Glastonbury, white jeans, guide dog poo, and Noel Edmonds. Plus, criminal barrister and television personality Rob Rinder discusses his new book 'The Protest'. If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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The times remains. 18 Plus New Customers Only. Offer ends 5pm June 30th. £1 for four months. £26 a month thereafter. T's and C's apply. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Thomas Fudges Biscuits. We've got a bit of a reputation, haven't we, Jane? Our desk here at Times Towers is pretty famous for having the most delicious sweet treats in the office.

Yep, guilty as charged. But we're not into any old treats. No, sir. Only the most elevated biscuit makes the grade. Because we're so classy. May we introduce you to Thomas Fudgers, born from the expert British craftsmanship of inventive Dorset bakers in 1916. Thomas Fudgers' Florentines are an indulgent blend of Moorish caramel, exquisite almonds and luscious fruits draped in silky smooth Belgian chocolate. You've said a few key words there, Fee. Exquisite. Moorish. Exactly the way my colleagues would describe me, I'm sure.

Did you say sophisticated? I didn't, but I can. Just like the biscuits, you're very sophisticated, darling. And like you, Thomas Fudges believes that indulgence is an art form and it should be done properly or not at all, Jane. I concur. Thomas Fudges, hats off to Remarkable Biscuits. Right, it's like Christmas Eve for music festivals today. So our thoughts are very much with those people who are thinking about heading off to Glastonbury over the next couple of days. Lots of people we know,

young Eve of course, who's trying out her boots, making sure they're comfortable enough to wear. I think you've left it a little late. I think so too, Fie. But I've... You've got backups. Have you got backups? How are they going so far? They're fine? I'm feeling good. Okay. Well, we'll report back to everybody tomorrow. The state of your feet. Yeah, well, actually, perhaps you can tell us when are you going to be back, back from this ordeal? Sorry, fun, fun trip. Next Wednesday. Okay, so mark your cards everybody. We have a week and a bit to wait for Eve's Blastonbury Tales.

When will you actually be back in your own bed? Will it be the Monday? Yes, so you've got 24 hours in the recovery unit. I'm a 6am coach on Monday morning so I should be back in my bed by about midday. Does the coach have a toilet facility? You're not going to go to bed? I'll just sleep on the couch. Lovely. OK. Oh, it just makes me queasy even thinking about it.

But it's quite funny actually how many people in the building are heading off to Glastonbury because there are some surprising people who aren't placed very much in our age group chat. Really? What? Funky oldies? Who do you know in that category? Well Hugo's going isn't he? Is he? Yes he is. Yep. So he said he goes every year, I mean I say Hugo's if he's a friend of mine, he's a colleague, Hugo Rivkin. And he said on air yesterday that he goes every Glastonbury with a group of dadmates and they all take off together and I'd be interested to know what the ladies are doing in their absence.

Be careful you don't bump into them Eve. Now, I just want to... We should go one year, Jane. Oh, God. Well, we went to... which was the first... We went to Latitude, didn't we? We went to Latitude. Yeah, but can I just say, we went to Latitude the day before Latitude started. Yes, Anna, that was more than enough for me. And we also got a full full tent to our podcast performance, whatever it was.

And that was in no way connected to the fact that it was bucketing down with Ray. There was nothing else going on at the time. Everyone had to come in and watch us. They didn't enjoy it at all. But anyway, we were providing. But you liked the vibe, didn't you? Oh, I love the vibe! Of course I did! We had quite a funny evening didn't we?

Because we were all sharing an Airbnb house back in Southwell. We couldn't find a chippy that was open. They were all closing weren't they and we were a bit London town about it. There's nowhere open and it's only half past nine at night. Yes anyway that's our festival story for you which isn't much of one. It's only half past nine at night. Yes, anyway, that was our festival story for you, which isn't much of one. Thoughts and prayers with everybody heading off to enjoy themselves, because it's not easy enjoying yourself. I just want to shout out to my colleague for one of the bleakest birthday cards I think I've ever received. It's also a day late, but never mind.

I saw this, is it cheeky you've written here? Cheeky card and thought of you, right. I saw this cheery card. Oh cheery because it's a really really bleak representation of what I think is a post-apocalyptic public park with a slide in in the fog and a lonely little swing in the in the background there. It's really, really sad and of course I do like it. So thank you, it fits the mood. Well it did, it spoke to me of your apocalyptic view of the world. It turned out I'm probably right though. Well I don't know how you're feeling today Jane because we went to bed last night pretty

certain, not you and I went to bed last night. That's in both our dreams but it won't happen in real life. Carry on. It's not that kind of a podcast. Going to bed last night it did seem that some horrendous stuff was going to be on the horizon and there had been a bombing of an air base in Qatar which had ramped up the action between Iran, Israel and the United States and then I woke this morning to ribbons and bunny rabbits and caps lock. Peace in our time, here we go.

I've sorted it for everybody, we'll be fine. Where are you on the scale of World War Three today? Then an hour after that... There was another attack. It started up again. So I don't know why we're laughing because it's bleakly, bleakly laughing because it's not in any way funny. What are we meant to do with this rush of emotions all the time?

It's actually a really good question and I don't know either. And I think like a lot of people, I go to bed quite stressed and wake up quite stressed. And look, I don't have any responsibilities. But I'm just one of those mugs, like everybody else living living through this extraordinary time and it is challenging. I think it messes with your mind and we need to acknowledge it and just say how hard it can be at the moment. So there will be people listening who actually do have responsibilities connected to all this and all we have to do is just acknowledge that it's confusing and plays on your mind and we want people not to think too much about it whilst also being

aware of it all, which isn't a desperately helpful message is it? No, but we have lots of people listening who are connected to the armed forces and I think this must be a horrendous time for families to consider what might be about to happen and then to suddenly have to pull back from it and then suddenly go into it again, that's what I'm finding incredibly difficult. There is a difference as well to other campaigns that have been in our lifetime, which have included the opportunity for parliaments and senates and all kinds of democratically elected arenas to have a discussion and a vote and it just doesn't seem to be happening this time around, does it?

And I find that a bit weird Jane. And it's also just, I mean we may as well just say it because lots of people are thinking it, particularly women, it's just a lot of old men. Everywhere you look. Well we are playing spot the woman on the news at the moment and we have a little bit of a spread bet in a grisly kind of ironic sense as to how many minutes into a news bulletin we'll hear from a woman and you're not allowed to count the women who are presenting the news or who are on the ground reporting from war-torn countries because most of them at the moment are women actually but somebody who's in

charge of a policy and has something to say about what's happening and we went through 22 minutes of a Channel 4 News special and there weren't any. It's dispiriting to put it mildly. Anyway, we don't normally talk to any great extent on this podcast about current affairs but just to get it out there and say that yes, we're as nervous and as frustrated and as bewildered as you are. But now the fun time starts. Yes!

The fun time starts because so many of you have contributed to the increasing pool of long time listener, first time emailer, trial and error jingles. And Jane Scott is long time listener, first time emailer. Long time listener, first time emailer. Well I tell you what it's very good. Should we have a long version? A long one? This is from Hillary. Thank you. I like that one too. If anything I prefer the second I think actually. What do you think? I prefer the second because it starts with a bit of a oh yeah absolutely Hillary thank you so much wonderful yeah are we going to we have others but we're just

gonna keep coming here again just let's hear version number two again they are on the mixing desk DJ Eve there. No, she's not doing a performance of Glastro Roo, possibly just as well. But Hillary, this is a brilliant effort and we're very grateful. She does say she's a musician and a producer. I think it's wonderful. Yeah. So we do have some others to come. We're going to sprinkle them through the podcast and then we will see which one takes our fancy. We could just do them all on a revolving kind of merry-go-round of jingles, couldn't we? Yeah, we could. But it introduces this one from Jane Scott.

You just wanted to mark our card about the notion that you might be duller if you don't drink. Jane says, I don't think it's helpful to discourage people from going alcohol free. I think it hit a nerve, this was a conversation we had a couple of days ago, because many hardened drinkers have tried to persuade me to have one and frankly made me feel uncomfortable. Sadly, since giving up I was diagnosed with breast cancer of which thankfully I'm fully recovered but it has somehow given me an excuse to be alcohol free and stops people from hassling me. Just to be clear, I stops people from hassling me. Just to be clear, I understand from the WHO perspective, and this was the report last week that said

women should only have six units a year, alcohol is classed under the same category as tobacco and asbestos with regards to being carcinogenic. Sorry, rant over. Saying all that, I love the podcast which makes me laugh out loud nearly every episode. Also, just as an aside, I used to be a social drinker and honestly still really enjoy a party and a get together. Well, Jane, thank you for emailing in with that. And Juno, I thought there's so much to agree with you about there. I think there's an enormous difficulty for people who do drink to accept somebody's reasons for not drinking.

I think the assumption is that there's some terrible problem going on and it doesn't have to be that at all. And there is a weird thing that you wouldn't really do if someone said, no, I don't smoke. You wouldn't go, oh, go and have one. Go on. Go on. Go on. Try one.

Just try one. But that still exists at a party with people who say, no, I'm not drinking at the moment. Well, I think the first rule should be if someone says they don't want to drink, you never ever, ever query it. It could be for any number of reasons. It might genuinely just be because they don't want to have a drink. And's fine. But I do understand and I've probably done it myself, if you are in the mood to have a drink it can be, I suppose is the word irritating right? It's not really right. It can get to you if someone isn't prepared to be doing it with you, particularly if there's just two of you. I mean if there's four or five of you it doesn't matter one iota whether

three people out of the five are not drinking that much. But I suppose we've just got to change our attitude. Oh, we have. Yeah, totally. And I'd hate to be someone who is encouraging someone who didn't want to drink to drink. And also, I think that notion that you are boring if you don't drink is one that we really, really have to knock into shape. Because actually, all of the advertising around alcohol shows people are just suddenly having

a great time, which isn't I don't think that's actually allowed. I don't think they're allowed to show or make out that life is shit until you have a drink and then it suddenly gets better. But I think we've really got to take that out of our alcohol approach. Because, you know, we don't, when we talk to our children about drinking we are so clear about the fact that too much alcohol is dangerous it makes you vulnerable you don't look cool it can lead to all kinds of problems and I think we're then very hypocritical about the way that we use it ourselves and

actually I did give up drinking and a during both my pregnancies and I'm sure many other women did as well I didn't give it up completely, but I chose to stop drinking for about six months God about ten years ago, because I just thought I just don't really like this anymore and It was the people who drank at parties who were dull Yeah And then they just don't pause they just carry on so yeah anyway They say the same thing over and over again. And then they just don't pause, they just carry on.

So, yeah, anyway, there we go. Okay, get it. I mean, that whole business of you're more fun and life's more fun when you're drinking in adverts, it's like the tampon ads, where the woman is transformed into someone who can suddenly run along a cliff with a balloon because she's got a tampon in. What? I mean I don't miss any of that caboodle, I really don't.

Have you put your roller blades away? Yes, as soon as my period started I'd suddenly want to just run around playing ice hockey, parachuting, all the things that were not tempting to me when I wasn't having a period. I'd do them when I had a tampon in. Isn't that funny? Right. We've missed another marketing opportunity as well, which is the post-menopausal, just only white jeans shop. It's funny you mention that. I think, yeah, white jeans, I've never done that, would I ever? No, I never did, I've never worn white jeans before.

No. But there's quite a thing about showing middle-aged women in white jeans. Why? Because? Because suddenly you can wear them. Oh, I see, yes, you mean. This is freedom, Jane. This is what we've waited for.

Okay, great. What? Things are opening up for me. My dad had a very definite case of man flu says our anonymous correspondent. Oh it's Melanie in vanilla taunton. Oh we were rude about taunton weren't we which was unfair. Don't get them started. No I don't want to. Don't want to because when Somerset people turn, it can be very nasty. My dad, says Melanie, had a very definite case of man flu and in his grump, being bunged up and not able to breathe clearly in the night.

That's a horrible feeling, can we say. Without putting on the light, he rummaged through the medicine cabinet, which he must have very close to his bed, and lathered himself in Vix menthol all over his hairy chest and neck and under and up his nose. He was still grumbling and tossing and turning saying it offered no relief. In the morning he'd discovered he'd used a pot of Vaseline by mistake. That would have taken months to get off. Months to get off and absolutely no comfort at all to the bunged up individual. I mean do be careful, do be careful how you store medications everybody and label them

clearly. Do you ever look at the sell-by date or the best before date on medicine? No, no I don't actually. I'm a bit of a prepper so I've still got a drawer full of face masks, paracetamol, ibuprofen. I mean just the normal cheapo, the ones that actually are the real thing and they're sold super cheap. And it's those drugs that are branded and called these fancy names and have words like express on the box that you're not really getting any more bang for your buck. So I just make sure I've got enough of the ordinary ones. I will never ever ever Be more joyous at doing this podcast than when we received that fantastic email And I'm really sorry that I've forgotten the name of our correspondent who simply said why would anybody not be buying the emodium?

fast relief Because emodium takes its own sweet time is no use at all It's just such a good one. Because Imodium takes its own sweet time. It's no use at all. Imodium waits seven days. No, not really. Have you got some Eve? Imodium. It's in the bag. Okay, right. Lots. Have you? Okay. Don't take lots.

Right, so much correspondence about hedgehogs. This one comes in from Fiona who is a... Oh come on Eve! Not Dave Doubledex is she? You're absolutely right. I'm not going to her set. Anyway, Fiona, welcome to the podcast, eventually. Fiona says, I was finally moved to write having heard your discussion about hedgehogs. My elderly parents currently spend every evening watching a hedgehog or two scamper across

the lawn at dusk. Isn't that lovely? It appears they can move at pace. They go to the hedgehog hotel that my 91 year old father made only last year. Admittedly he leaves food out each night so it's no surprise his hotel occupancy rate would make many at the hotelier gasp. I love that the hedgehogs cause them such entertainment and wonder if one is the hedgehog which found itself stuck in my neighbours fence. With its front feet dangling in mid air, who knows how long it had been there but I hope it was grateful when we managed to cut it free it was hard to tell as of course it simply curled up into a spiky ball until

we left it in peace and it could make its escape. I was introduced to your podcast some years ago by one of your New Zealand listeners Sally last summer we met up in Montpellier and Oh, the lives our listeners lead. And you were our go-to entertainment when taking a siesta in the heat of the day. And no doubt we'll be doing the same this year when we meet in Lisbon. Obrigado. Oh, obrigado. Time for a postcard maybe.

Well Fiona, do send us a postcard and I hope that your parents are doing alright and that's a lovely story. Actually we've got a postcard from Tracy, who describes her location as a small market town in Cheshire. Would you care to hazard a guess? Where could that be? I'm going to say Nantwich. I don't really know any small market towns in Cheshire. Well that's upset the people of Cheshire. Tracy says, Jane and Fee long long time listener, first time postcarder. No, she doesn't qualify for the jingle. Ah, Dave Doubledex moved close to her knobs there but not required so move back. Long long time

listener, first time postcarder. Thought I'd send one of my Beano postcards that I send mum messages to my two boys on. They're now in their late 20s. They've lived all over the place since they were 18 from Namibia and China to that there London. The eldest is currently serving with the RAF in the Falklands. They are grown men but they really love getting postcards in their parcels. I bet they do. Oh, I bet they do. That's lovely. Yeah. Tracy, thank you very much. I'm not surprised she wants to hide from us and just describes herself as living in that

small market town in Cheshire. But it's a lovely part of the world. And thank you very much for sending us the Beano, Beano number 1000 special edition postcard. The Beano number 1000. Can you guess, Fee, what year the 1000th edition of the Beano came out? Oh, I'm going to say... Question, isn't it? Isn't it? Good question.

Well, Ken... Er... The clock is ticking. I'm going to say 1993. Oh, way off. 1999... Not that slick myself. 1961.

Whoa, okay. So that's incredible. It was a weekly magazine, the Bino, wasn't it? So it shows you it must have started back in... So 52 weeks a year into 1000, 20 years before that, so it started in the 1940s. It must have done. Wow. Just incredible. And it was 3D in 1961, pre-decimalisation of course. That's three old pennies, isn't it? Oh, I thought you meant it was 3DD as in they made a 3D model. 3D in cost. That's confusing isn't it?

That age difference thing between us there came out was a bit more familiar with the old money. Yes and just everything old. This is a stunning question, comes in from Sherry who says this has always puzzled me, perhaps while you're discussing guide dog someone will have the answer to the question. Who picks up guide dog poo? Well that is a really good question. I have a feeling they are so well trained that they might do it at a very specific time. But as to location, I don't know.

So somebody, we had a previous email of those that brilliant woman who was being a foster mom to a trainee guide dog. How are you training the guide dog? Please, would you mind writing back and telling us the answer to that question? Yeah it's a very good question and I never ever thought to ask that. So Sherry thank you. Yeah they are just remarkable, remarkable animals. There's a story in the news today isn't there and in, we're going to do it on the live Times Radio show.

Get the Times Radio app, it's free. We're on every day, Monday to Thursday, between two o'clock and four. And one of the stories we're covering today, the one about the bears who got out of their enclosure at a wildlife park in Devon, there were no injuries, and headed straight to the honey store and ate a week's worth of honey

in the time they had available. Well you would wouldn't you? You would if you could and they did. What would be your go-to if one day you do escape from captivity or captivity here? What would be the thing that you would just be face down? I'd just run up and down the local streets shouting very liberal sentiments. Which... And then they could just restrain me

and drag me back into the building. Okay. You wouldn't just go for a chocolate mousse. Who was it? We got an email yesterday saying I was a lefty. So, yeah, I wasn't really a lefty. I'm very much one of those people in the middle, sort of weeping in mild despair at everybody and everything. I think that's how I describe my politics. It's not very easy to get on a t-shirt or a badge.

I would say that pretty much everybody is in your sights. Yes, exactly. As is often the case with broadcasters, there's something about having the portcullis of censorship, which is the microphone, that in civilian life when you don't have it is just quite funny. So Richard Coles always used to say that broadcasters have the filthiest language and he thought that was because you can't swear on air.

So you've got this specific time in your working day where you're so careful about everything you say. So actually, when you're not doing that, it's like a complete scatter gun, free for all in what you say about people, how you say it, you know, the effing and blinding and all of that kind of stuff. And you get it out of your system. Yeah, but I'd never really thought about that before. I mean, you should hear Jeremy Vine blimey. I mean, when he's not on air, he's a filthy man. Is he?

No, he's not. I just wondered where that was going. Gosh. Has she got something to tell us? No, I don't know. Now, Pam is over there in New Zealand. As per request, here is the before and after of the hedgehog I found, Harley. Have you seen this?

Oh, Harley's a sweetheart. Well, she found Harley wandering on her lawn in the middle of the day, confused, mangy and covered in fleas and maggots. Mangy. Mangy? Mangy. Is it? Mangy, yeah.

I took him in. I have to say, Pam, I wouldn't have done, but anyway, I took him in, she says, picked off the maggots. We should say this is a hedgehog we're talking about. Picked off the maggots. Right, that jingle's just done from all of us, I think. Picked off the maggots, treated him for fleas, washed him, washed him. And we married next year. We've been happy for 45 years. And bedded him down. Pam, this was sent very sincerely, this email, so I'm very sorry. It was the hinge reference.

Treated him for fleas, washed him, bedded him down in a box of... In a box of shredded paper in our bath. Oh, niche. For six weeks he lived there. I can't feel, can you just finish this? Oh, try to. Oh, this isn't going to get any better. Right.

For six weeks he lived there, dining on fancy feast cat food, thumping around at night, getting fat and healthy. Here are the before and after pics. Honestly Pam, I can't tell the difference. Then I let him go. He scuttled off without a backward glance and I never saw him again. We need the Simon Bates Artyom. Oh we do really.

Oh gosh. Do do do do. Do do do. Which was just as well, says Pam, since I later learnt that hedgehogs, being an introduced species, are considered a noxious pest here since they eat our native lizards and eggs of our ground nesting birds. Oh we want a reset. Pam, that's fantastic. And actually I was just being silly because the after shot. of our ground nesting birds. Oh, we've all had a reset.

That's fantastic. And actually, I was just being silly because the after shot of Arlie shows them in very, very, very fine form. But I have to say, we've all known men like that, haven't we? They come into our lives, they twizzle us around, we feed them, we clean them, we put them in the bath and then they just sod off. Right, I tell you what, anyone who is listening in New Zealand, we've been treated to three episodes of Noel Edmonds' Down Under. Oh, you've watched it? Okay.

His Kiwi Life, where he's set up, well not set up really, he's bought the most extraordinary estate on the South Island, which has got the Bugger Inn. I just… What? That's his pub, it's called the bugger in. Sorry, my nose is running, my eyes are running, it's all just disgusting. Could I go and get a hanky? Okay, I'll talk to the listeners about Noel. No, no, if you'd just get me a tissue that would be great. Okay. DJ Double Decks is leaving the studio.

But Noel comes across very well, in brackets, a bit weird. But as a genuinely very good-hearted, well-meaning person who is putting his money into the various ventures so he's got a vineyard and a wellness centre which is just beyond woo-woo actually. And he believes in all of his crystal tips energy and he's built an energy garden and whatever. But actually it does seem to tell a slightly different story to the one that had made it into the press about him not really caring very much about New Zealand itself. So if anybody is listening, because we have a huge listening sheet. If anyone is listening. In New Zealand. Yeah. Then we would like to know your thoughts

actually because maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Well, just as a really unfortunate, well no, just a genuine observation, thank you Eve, sorry. I just laughed and it's just very silly and you shouldn't laugh. Right, he does look so well preserved. I mean maybe there's something to his wellness. I mean what does he use? Is wellness. I mean does he have, what does he use? Is it crystals? Does he treat himself? Yes, so there's a lot of energy stuff going on and he lies on his crystal bed and he's got an oxygen tent that he goes and has a little sleep in. But also, Jane, he had a bumpy old ride business-wise where a bank who he successfully sued for fraud really

took his broadcasting empire to the cleaners. A New Zealand bank? No, this was back in the day when he was running unique broadcasting in the UK. So he's had some very dark times, which he does refer to in a very sincere way, no reason to doubt that that's happened, but he did get his money back and I mean there probably is something to be said for the sheer health enhancing merit of living on an 800 acre estate with a vineyard in a beautiful part of the world with very little pollution, incredible food and doing what you want to do every day. And is Mr Blobby still with him?

No Mr Blobby turns up in episode two just as a bit of a kind of jokey thing. But as Noel Edmunds says, everyone thinks that I'd be horrified to see him, but actually you know Mr Blobby made him a fortune. There was a Mr Blobby theme park, wasn't there? God was there. Yes there was. Bit of a sort of one trick pony Mr Blobby I thought. Well, yeah.

He didn't even speak did he? That's unfair to one trick pony, Mr Blobby, I thought. Well, yeah. He didn't even speak, did he? That's unfair to one trick ponies. I don't think he did, no. He just blundered around. Sorry, I've got a clipping here, which I've kept from last week's Mirror. It's an article called What's My Cat Thinking? And it's Vicki White, who she's the journalist, called on animal psychic Jackie Weaver and was stunned. Not Jackie, was it Jackie Weaver who was?

No, well it wasn't Jackie Weaver but there was somebody Weaver who was that... Fantastic councillor. Yeah, the parish councillor. Took the parish councillor down. It was Jackie Weaver. Was it Jackie Weaver? She turned her attention to telling us what cats think. No I don't think so. But this journalist Vicki White, she says she's dying to know what her cat Humphrey, who's a British blue shorthair, thinks about. So she booked a session with Jackie Weaver,

a celebrity psychic who's done readings for Coronation Street legend Bill Roach's dogs and actor Matthew Reese's horses. Right, after a bumpy introduction Jackie insists that she and my cat Humphrey are chatting away. She tells me I'm going to ask him to tell me about himself and see what he comes up with. Well I'm going to leave part two until tomorrow. Right, well that's me on Tender Hooks all night. Why don't you just leave it until after the Rob Rinder interview? Just to keep people guessing a little bit. Okay, yes I'll do that. It's a really good production that, because Eve's illustrated,

she's not up to that kind of, that's not her side of what she's capable of. Long time listener, first time emailer You've just played that because you can. I think what you sound like, we've all been drinking since 6am. We started with a geopolitical conversation, but it's just gone down to shit. It's very unlike you to swear. Sorry. Some things just take too long. It's very unlike you at phys.ca. Let's bring in our guest, author and so much more TV presenter, documentary maker par excellence, legal expert Rob Rinder. He's already in full flow, it's Rob Rinder

who's our guest this afternoon. Oh sorry. No it's alright Rob, we're having a lovely chat. That's Fee. Hi Fee again. Hello. Thanks for having me. Rob Rinder, MBE now. Barrister, writer, broadcaster. Good to have you with us, honestly. Thanks for having me. The Trial and the Suspect were both number one bestsellers and now your new book, The Protest.

I'm guessing it's out on Thursday, is it? Or is it already out? It was out last Thursday. I've just come here. It's like the, dare I say, the kind of happy end to a week of publicity. We are happy ending. Thank you very much. I just led you into that cul-de-sac and you,

well, there you are, I've got nothing to do with what you're talking about. Yeah, she parked up and put the handbrake on there, didn't she? Sorry. Right, Rob Rinder is here. Now, is there pressure, because your other two novels both got to number one in the best sellers?

Yeah. So is this one gonna do do the same do you think? I hope so. I mean it's so funny when you ask authors, you know, and they're supposed to say, oh no no it's just fine, you know, I do it for the integrity of the writing and that sort of thing. What do you do for up? Well I do it because I want people to engage in reading, I love that. I genuinely want them to understand a little bit about what goes on at the bar. I'd like to have a, you know, there's a serious element to the book where people perhaps get an insight into the relationship between how class affects

justice. Those are the serious themes. But I also want them just to delight on a sunny day and disappear into a book. That sort of delicious escapism is what reading is about. That's why I do them, I suppose, because I love reading. Yeah. But at the same time, it would be entirely disingenuous to say, you know, I'm, I don't worry if they sell, I do it for my art. I mean, there are writers who do that. I'm sure I don't really know any of them. I mean, all the great writers, even the ones that are super famous wanted to sell them, including the ones who are part of our canon. Well, can I say it hit the spot for me on what was a horribly hot Saturday. And in fact,

I showed Fia an image of me taken by one of my rather rude children on Saturday, in which I just look like a very despondent potato. I'm just sitting there in the heat in a terrible pair of shorts. No darling, no darling, no don't. You look absolutely one. No, no Fia, I look terrible. What were they doing to be rude? Darling, no don't, you look absolutely wonderful. No fear, I look terrible. What were they doing, why were they rude? Well they're just rude, they're just not very respectful.

That's kids. Well I know, and the only thing I could do to take my mind off how bad I was feeling in the heat was to read your book, and I did in one day, so there we are. Oh that's lovely, thank you. Yes, now the central character is Adam Green, who is, I'm gonna say he's Jewish,

I mean he is, but his Jewishness is, it's referenced throughout the book, but light touch, how important or significant is that? Well, I mean it's certainly part of his cultural upbringing, you know, the book is, as you know, interspersed with calls from his very Jewish mum. And, you know, you talk about the challenges of writing, why I write books and some of that is to help people have a connection with the things that I feel. And so the character of Adam is loosely, very, very loosely based on me.

So it's a kind of, he's not religiously Jewish, but it's a very difficult thing to call someone culturally Jewish that has, I mean, all sorts of things that I find kind of problematic. Why? Well, because, you know, my life, my childhood wasn't culturally Jewish, it was spiritually Jewish too and you always wonder what people mean when they announce

themselves as culturally Jewish. Does that mean eating soup? I mean you can't really escape the skin of your Jewishness, it's inherited, it's you know not just from the Shoah or the Holocaust or you know, not just from the Shoah or the Holocaust or those sorts of historical events. It comes to us from years of history and place and, of course, trauma. You know, some people describe the Jewish lived experiences. They tried to kill us. They failed. Let's eat. That didn't start, you know, 80 years ago. And in Adam's case, you know, he would have gone to synagogue as I did, it would have been the kind of epicentre of his social life as well, and how the expectations of his mum, the film, let's say, that his mum wrote for him that he wanted to star in, would have included a in his life. But all of that's to one side as he pursues his career and ultimately, I guess like my mum I suppose, his mum becomes much more concerned that he should settle down and marry any girl rather than whether it's a Jewish girl or not, she just wants to be a grandma. So I think those sort of Jewish

things have informed some of his background as it did mine. We're going to talk about the book but listeners are getting involved. Alistair says it's called ethnically Jewish. That's interesting, yeah, ethnically Jewish. I guess I'm more comfortable about that. I think Jewish is enough. You know, people say well I'm culturally Jewish, why bother you? You're just Jewish or not. You not. I always wonder who you're saying that for, you know, in the event that they come, let's put it in that way, in terms that people will intuitively understand and they don't separate the cultural Jews from the non-cultural Jews. And a number of other listeners just wanting your take on the Middle East right now.

So can we get to the book first? We will get to the book. In fact I almost want to do this very serious and significant bit at the beginning if you don't mind because it is something that's occupying so many minds. So what would you say about where we find ourselves right now? It's a nightmare. I mean anybody that says anything else is totally incapable of seeing it through lens of nuance and tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance. Very easy to have this discussion in simple straightforward paradigms. Genocide versus non-genocide, the colonized world versus the colonizing and tragically that's the way that it's playing out in

the media and the consequence of that is deeply tragic that nobody wants to engage with The real nuance that's led to where we are and I know that that's a bit of a fudgy answer But I think it's really really important Before we have any kind of conversation about this to understand the genuine Complexity of what's taking place in that part of the world and the strength of feeling on both sides. And last time I was here, I was talking about a documentary that I was really proud to be part of, Holy Land, which is still available on BBC. And what that does is provide the historical context for the birth of the state of Israel from both sides through second generation going back and speaking to the people who are actually there. And that's what people too often, in fact across the board, fail adequately to do.

This started somewhere and it's really important to understand that and locate it. Now from the point of view of being a Jew and somebody who has been a supporter of the state of Israel, I emphasize that without necessarily supporting the Israeli government, who has worked alongside a range of organizations that have sought social justice in that country. I can say that I have been proud to be a supporter of the state of Israel and all of its values, be that because of its commitment to pluralistic democracy within its borders. Now, I know there'll be people who are screaming at their radios right now as I say that, be it because of the diversity of the judiciary that I see, be it because of within its borders. Again, you'll note that very

powerful throat clearing of the rights of Israeli Arabs that live as Israeli citizens. There's a lot to be said for that democracy under the rule of law and that it needs to be safe, preserved, protected and defended. However, I'm also, you should also be aware, you asked me at the beginning about my relationship with Jewishness and one of the great calumnies, one of the problems, posh word, I wouldn't use that. One of the challenges here is that it's a deep source of frustration for Jewish people to be told that they've colonized that part of the world. You know, at the start of that documentary, one thing that I share is that the yearning towards that place, the only prayer you might know as a Jewish person, whether you are

secular or ethnically Jewish, is the word Shema Israel, a hero Israel. That's both a longing for a people to be together and a place that goes back 2,000 years. That's a very specific yearning, you know. It's real. And it's also true that, as you know, the Jews that were thrown out of, expelled from Arab lands after 1948 in Iraq, Iran, very topically, are also part of that dispossessed. At the same time, what is happening in various parts of Gaza, and of course, in the West Bank Bank as well we have to be mindful of. If you think I'm going to sit here and justify some of that behavior, of course I'm not. But what I need to do though as an advocate for the state of Israel, I'm not going to be helpful to anybody by discussing as I could do as an international lawyer,

the various definitions of genocide and whether it's happening and to what extent, but I can at least invite people, the only job I can do really, to read beyond what they are fed and what I mean by what they're fed, how they self-curate their news. And by all means go out and be an activist, by all means go out and be horrified, by all

means go out and call for the end, if you like, of the Israeli government. That's entirely valid. But at least at the same time, acknowledge that there is a fear, there's a counter narrative and there is a significant and important justification for the state of Israel that you need to be mindful of as you go out and be an activist. Rob, thank you. I think you've given a really full and interesting answer to that and people I only ask because people were asking and you're here to talk about your book and I get it. Listen, you should ask and you know if I was sitting here and I was just, you just asked me if I was a Jewish person, you said, what do you think of them?

But at least I go, you know, I live in Islington, is the answer. But the reality is, it would be totally unreasonable for you not to be able to ask that question because I've made work about it. And I would ask people to go there and watch it. So that just very briefly, the Holy Land is available. Holy Land on BBC One. And it's on the iPlayer now. Excuse me, iPlayer, not on BBC One, it's on iPlayer.

You know, it's the first time that the Nakba is ever mentioned on television. It's incredibly moving, you know, as Sarah Agger goes back and discovers what happened to her family, as it is for somebody who was an early Zionist to go back and discover the yearning for that land and what it meant. And I am praying at the moment, more than ever, that, well, I don't know what the end game is, nobody does. And perhaps that is the most legally problematic issue, to say the very least, that exists in that part of the world. Thank you, though. Honestly, in the book, there are there are two plots, actually. There's who killed the fashionable artist, the impossibly fashionable.

There's a great segue by Max Bruce. Thank you very much. I think it's quite sick. Who killed Max Bruce, who dies on the opening night of his exhibition at the Royal Academy? It's very public death. Rather grim. But somebody did it. And you need to find out whether it really was the guileless intern. He doesn't really seem capable of it, but was definitely there. Were you not suspicious of her?

I didn't ever think she did it, but maybe she did. That's because you're a journo. You're immediately suspicious, I think. I'm very suspicious. You've got cynicism hard-baked into you. I have, but then there's a subplot, which is really interesting. And you, your character, Adam Green ends up defending a British soldier accused of the murder of a 10 year old child. Now this is something that I think you have done in real life.

Yeah. So as you say, the overarching plot is fun and I'm really glad that you introduced it as sort of saying you're sitting outside in the heat reading it and it is a book to be delighted in and to be read covered in sun cream and then left for the next reader and whatever somebody wherever you are in the world. No, make the next one, buy another one Rob, come on, come on. Oh god I'm rubbish at this, aren't I? I think I'll be a bit better. Vlog your book man. I'm all about sharing books actually. But yeah of course and that and that's a lot of fun. Except, you

know, it also invites a question. This is the main plot you're talking about about our girl Lexie. It looks totally overwhelming. She sprays a can of paint into our famous artist and he dies. Again, she's a young activist. The question is, the evidence looks totally overwhelming, but did she do it or not? And is justice done at the end as Adam goes to sort of solve the crime? But the subplot that you're referring to, yes, was or is loosely based, very loosely based on a case that I did involving British soldiers

who were accused of killing an Iraqi looter. And we use that word looter, just as we casually use those words when there are people whose names we don't know because they're from lands far away from us. It was a boy, it's a 14 year old boy and after the war fighting phase in Iraq in 2006 we were peacekeeping the day and there was no plan. Can I say this is something that really interested me it's something I've never thought about certainly never read

about where a group of soldiers in that, as you say, overnight are transformed into peacekeepers and that is a whole different mindset, a whole different way of living and working. And their instructions were really limited. That's what happened and you know that is the scandal of the myriad scandals of, it doesn't really go close, it doesn't come close enough to say scandal, of what happened in that moment. You know one of the things we're talking now about of, it doesn't really go close, it doesn't come close enough to a scandal, of what happened in that moment. You know, one of the things we're talking now about regime change, and Philip Collins actually at the Times wrote a really good piece after the, let's say Israel

began its retaliatory measures after October 7th. And you know, there'll be people out there no doubt worried that I don't say, you know, that there was a spike in anti-Semitic violence, anti-Jewish racism in this country on the eighth of October. But nevertheless, here, when you invade a country, you've got to have an end game. That's an international legal requirement. You have to know what it is. If you're going to be especially, which is slightly different from the Middle Eastern situation, if you're going to be a belligerent occupying power, as it's called, you are under

responsibility to rebuild civil society because you're taking it over. The last time we did that in Britain before Iraq, before we ended up going to Basra, was in Berlin in 1945. And the difference there is that there was a vestige of civil society that could rebuild the bureaucracy and they were ready, willing and capable of doing it. That's not what happened in Basra. So these boys, you know, many of them from parts of our country with the least amount of privilege. We're talking 19, 20 year olds.

19 year old, 20 year old boys, right. No phones. You know, their mums are watching this sort of war fighting phase on telly and they fight their way in and within a very short period of time, they are policemen. Now that's run by the military police service. What do you do in circumstances, again, you would imagine a time before telephones, although the book does have that technology, where you get senior commanders telegraphing on the ground going, look, this is anarchy here. Um, we are under this obligation to rebuild, but half society is looting. Some people are trying to help. We don't want to do, can we shoot looters on site?

That's what's going on. So what happened was these boys drove, uh, this drove a, uh, group of looters who were stealing the last vestiges, I think of penicillin from battered general hospital to, uh, the Tigris And they did that to get them wet. Now that sounds like a cruel and dangerous thing to do, one of them drowned. Yes, this is called wetting. Wetting, that's right. And it explained how it's supposed to...

Well, the idea was it was sort of an ad hoc, you know, the question is, is it a punishment or was it a deterrent? They would say it was a deterrent. You put them in water and that would mean because of the various just straightforward practical challenges of getting back to the city, they'd have to walk back. It means that they would stop looting for the day. It wasn't meant to be a dangerous and cruel punishment. And tragically, tragically, a boy died

because he drowned crossing the Tigris. Now those four very young, very junior soldiers were tried in a court martial. During the course of the trial, it's no secret, it emerged, because none of this was available to us at the time, that the pre-war planning had been, say, the least, not thought through. It emerged that there was chaos on the ground. It emerged that other more senior commanders on the ground were doing similar things simply because they were trying to develop ad hoc strategies to stop the looting. That was what their obligation was. Met with total chaos, met

with inadequate training. Now the question there is who's culpable? Is it the 19 year old boy? Did he do something dangerous? Should he have known? Or is it somebody higher up the food chain? And again, we use the word tragedy. Where are the people who are culpable for that, responsible for the thousands of deaths as a result of that inadequate, doesn't come close again, does it? the limitations of our language. So when you hear a chat about so-called regime change in Iran, I mean alarm bells do go off don't they? Of course they do. They should for anybody. At the same time it's that delicate balance

we have, especially in Iran where they have a slightly different I think internal impulse. I certainly do when I think about Iran. Because, you know, if you're going to have regime change, you jolly well need to know what's coming next. I remember I was thinking about this today. I was watching, I don't know how, it must be something in my YouTube algorithm, but it was Margaret Thatcher sitting at a table with Lech Walesa, you know, talking about regime change. And she was sitting with him and she said, look, what are your five steps? How are you gonna build a party?

How are you going to build society after? How are you gonna have a pluralistic democracy? And what she understood was that you need leaders within that are going gradually, gradually to build those values and bring people along with them. That's why she courted Gourbachev, all the stuff that we know. The exciting thing, and I use that word about Iran and I work with Iranian colleagues, is that we don't want to miss this opportunity.

By this opportunity, I mean, how do we find a way by we without violence of supporting, especially the women, many of whom are highly educated, especially in Tehran, to build a movement and do what we can to support them. And what I worry about is that as a result of what's happening, a lot of activism, I'm going to say it, especially from the left, is now going to be channeled away from supporting those movements. And I guess I understand why, you know, but my thing is you can spin two plates at once. You can both be a person who's an activist who perhaps deplores what Israel has done. I happen to disagree with that, but that's fine.

But at the same time, you know, I'd want you to have the consistency of perhaps someone like my hero, someone like Peter Tatchell. And so use your energy, that activist energy, to go and do what you can to support those movements of women who, especially of minorities, of the marginalized and of mainstream Iranians who have a thousand years of culture, who are thirsty again for freedom. And I hope that whatever happens, we can do to support ground, excuse me, movements on the ground to gradually develop and eventually build something and I feel very hopeful about that part of the world in a way that I don't think it would be reasonable to have been when looking at the intelligence that was coming out of

Iraq. Thank you and I just want to end actually, we only have a couple of minutes, but this book, your new book, The Protest, which is already out, it's dedicated to the 45 aid society. Now this is your late grandfather, so tell us about him. Oh thanks, so the 45 AIDS Society, I guess it's where my kind of fundamental values come from. It's the boys, so it's the organization my mum runs, started by the late great Sir Ben Helfcourt. After the war, there were just over 700, just under 750 child survivors. The British government said you can come here, of the Holocaust, you can come here

and have a temporary visa. I emphasise that you have a temporary visa. Many of them, my grandfather included, were supposed to go to what was then Palestine, I don't know how they did Palestine. But they came here, they ended up in Windermere because in most cases their entire family had been murdered. They built a family for themselves and now they're part of this great big organization that my mum's the chairman of and they're there to help us to remember. And you know the thing that I really care about in terms of Holocaust education isn't necessarily just focusing on all of the camps. So often I meet people that will tell me, I've been to Auschwitz and I'm glad they've

been and it's important to go and to have that encounter. But it also pains to remind them that that's the end of the story. Go back to the beginning. You know, here we have the most advanced liberal democracy in the world and then you need the right alchemy to descend into that depravity. So think not necessarily purely about the horror of the victims and what's lost to humankind

as a result of them being killed and my family amongst them. But think also of that Nazi guard who was 23 at that point. 10 years before, he was a kid in school. And the curriculum of the greatest, most advanced place of culture, of schiller, of Beethoven descends into that. And I think that's what really matters. And I hope that any education I do, any work I do,

and of course anything the 45-Aid Society does really helps people think about that and coming back to Iran celebrate and I mean that and enable people, empower them perhaps to fall in love with democracy under the rule of law because that was what my granddad did. Rob it's been brilliant to talk to you thank you very much indeed. Thank you for having me and by the way it is quite fun fun I mean the book is good and fun even with like naughty children running around. Yeah. Well, she's 22 Just disrespectful. Well, that's what they're supposed to be. I'm gonna defend her. Oh, no, I couldn't afford your fancy prices Or she certainly couldn't write Rob Rinder there who's got a new novel out and it's fabulous Do you know what? It really is if you just want to take a book on holiday that's going to make you, I don't know, just keep telling the pages, keep guessing,

I would recommend it. The Protest by Rob Rinder. Right, back to the conversation that Vicki White, the Mirror journalist cat had with animal psychic Jackie Weaver. Now Humphrey is a cat and he told Jackie Weaver that asked to describe his life he answered this V, very easy indeed. I think that probably sums up the lives of most much-loved domestic cats. Jackie has, she's a serious business, this animal psychic. She's worked with animals including horses, dogs, ferrets and even a kangaroo. I mean, if you, good luck to you Jackie. If you can make a living claiming to talk to kangaroos, possibly the final straw is this. I've just done my first bearded dragon. Well, we've all been there. Right. Okay. I just don't think we can go on anymore.

I'm so glad I kept this clipping. I've carried around with me for over a week. Well, nearly a week. I don't want to exaggerate. Right. Take a deep, deep breath, everybody. Yeah. Does it say what the bearded dragon had to say? He said to me, my skin's actually soft, she said. He looked spiky in the picture, but his owner confirmed the skin on his belly was very soft. And so the bearded dragon said to Jackie, you know, people get me wrong. I'm not as spiky as I look. Which could be said of both of us.

Right, well I might employ Jackie Weaver and see whether or not she can translate some of Barbara's actions. Well, I think you'd need to pay out because it sounds to me like Jackie is a very busy lady. Okay. That's one to book for a later edition of Off Air. We should actually, shouldn't we? But I'm not quite sure we managed to get through the interview without corpsing. Well we could do that thing where we hold the skin on our necks and just for once in our lives take everything seriously, we'd be alright.

Okay, well you do the skin on your neck and I do the skin in between my finger and my thumb. Okay, well whatever it does it usually works for both of us. Yeah, it does. It doesn't, yep. Right, we are late leaving the studio, people are circling around us, very important men have very important men to talk to, so these two little women and Eve, the bigger woman, are saying goodbye. Yes, and we'll reconvene and hear all about Glastonbury, the bits that are broadcastable

anyway, next Wednesday with Eve, but we'll be back tomorrow. Probably. We're not work shy. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers.

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