Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Putting myself in the bin of life! (with Jay Rayner)

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Fi is still away and her absence is being felt sharply by Jane, who is joined by Eve, back from her holidays. From her travels, she brings back some revelations and the exotic taste of M&S... Jane and Eve chat keeping your hands off the walrus, interpreting (or misinterpreting) art, AI and graduating, and lasagne in the heat. Plus, Jay Rayner, writer and food critic, discusses his new book 'Nights Out in the Kitchen'. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Offair with Jane Fee, which today is with Jane. And yes, she's back. Eve. Didn't bring us anything, so I sent her to Marks and Sparks to get some chocolate buttons, which is... Well, because you're supposed to come back with something when you've been on holiday. I've got a very trendy anklet on. How does that help me? Well, you can look at it. I don't want to look at it. Oh yeah, I did have to reason chocolate buttons because I did forget.

But imagine the taste of turkey. M&S chocolate buttons No I'm sorry It doesn't transport They transport me Undeniable But they don't take me to Turkey Although I couldn't find the orange

You know That we normally like It's a secret Known only to our team But we do believe That during the colder winter months Eating the orange chocolate buttons From MNS

Does ward off colds Yes On account of vitamin C And if you believe that You'll believe anything Okay our guest, my guest, the guest, is Jay Rainer, restaurant critic,

broadcasts on a speech station funded by you if you have a licence if you have a licence. And of course she should have, she said quickly. Jay Rainer, there's not much she doesn't know about food. And honestly, Eve, I don't mean this nastily. He's not a small man. He clearly loves his grub.

And I actually think that's quite significant When you're a food critic and you're writing about food, and he clearly just relishes every single mouthful. But he is interesting on the adjectives he uses to describe food. He's written a book, it is called, Nights Out in the Kitchen. Chuck me some adjectives. Well, he's a beautiful writer, actually. No, he has a critic, sort of fan, but who's also a critic of his writing,

who accuses him of overusing the adjective punchy. And it is actually, when you think about it, There aren't that many words that are in your locker if you are a food critic because you are describing something relative, that we actually, most of us, putting stuff into your mouth and then tasting it. And, yeah, it's quite hard to think of new ways of doing it. It is, and it's a fair point. How much of your job is to be flamboyant with your language

and how much is just to get your point across. Be accurate. Yeah. I suppose they can rely quite. heavily on similes. Yeah, give me an example. Well, it was... Come on, I'd like to hear it from you.

It was like a summer's day in my mouth. Well, that was beautiful. What a lost to the literary world, Eve is. It was like a breath of fresh air. Yeah, all right, that's enough. It was a minty cocktail. A minty. Right, so that's why Eve's doing this job,

and she isn't a restaurant critic. So Jay Rainer is the guest, I just want to bring this to your attention. And I don't do a better job than me. God, help us. I should say he is a lovely writer. He's a beautiful writer. He talks about three cheese toasty.

So he talks about all sorts of highfalutin foods and fantastic meals. But he also acknowledges the joy of the simple bit of fodder that absolutely gladdens the heart and delights the palate. And one is this, it's quite expensive and it's sold in a hotel and a bar. I think it's a hotel, not that far from. Broadcasting House, so I've certainly eaten it. It's a stove top toasty. So it's a three cheese, really substantial cheese toasty. In fact, I never did finish one of these things. But there's three cheeses and the three cheeses are significant because one is for the tang. Okay. And one is for the melt and then one is for the stretch. I'm glad you said that because I have always wondered

the significance of three cheeses because it is quite specific. Yeah, I think it's quite specific. So All that explained, all that and more explained by Jay Rainer a little bit later in this edition of the podcast. So you went this time to... I went to Turkey. Yeah, never been on a holiday to Turkey and you've been there on work. What was it like? I'm not particularly familiar with it.

It was very fun. It was very lively. It was very beautiful. I'm sure everyone is sick to death of hearing about my holidays. Yeah, they are. So let's move on. This was a holiday of revelations. Well, go on then.

So one was I'm a convert now of the half sheet of kitchen roll, which you're familiar with. That was Stockton Our Villa. Right. Another is I'm now a strong convert for the B-Day. The lesser about that, the better. Well, yeah, I think probably. And the third is I'm now a big fat convert for card games. You're not a big fan of card games, are you?

I'm not, and I do think, but I'm not proud of not being a fan, because I know so many people who love a night of cards, particularly on, because you were on a family holiday, weren't you? Yeah, yeah. And I think they can be really a nice, unifying thing to do. I used to be in your boat, but Jane, I've jumped ship. Oh, right. Okay, so which games did you play? Also, we played one actually, interestingly.

I say that. Set it up now. This better be interesting. Three of us called it different things, but it was essentially the same card game. One of us called it Cambio, one of us called it Dutch, one of us called it Patrice. That was fun. Contract Whist we played. Well, look, you've made a relatively compelling case. What are the rules of the game that...

Do you really want me to go there? No, just very briefly. Is it simple to understand the game with three names? Yes, it is. Okay. And then everyone can get involved. And I think after dinner, particularly, when you're feeling a bit slumped,

and maybe you could sort of let the evening just slide away. It gives it second wind. And now I appreciate that. I really did use to find it quite forced fun. Okay, forced fun. Organised fun. Yeah. I'm completely against to organise fun,

because I don't believe it works. You have, I mean, my grandmother used to, she was always at Wist. She used to play Wist all the time. And it used to absolutely crack up my sister and I, because the two women that she normally sat with at Wist were, she used to play it down the British Legion on a Saturday night with my granddad. And they used to sit at a table often with two of the women who were called Mrs. Buffy and Mrs. Tart.

I don't know why, but, well, I kind of do know why. My sister and I used to find it absolutely hysterical. You can picture that so clearly. I totally can. This is Liverpool in the 70s. And they're all playing Wist at the Legion on a Saturday night. I mean, I'm not deriding Wist. I'm not deriding card games.

I mean, it's very much in my DNA. But for whatever reason, I've just never taken to cards. I don't like crosswords. I don't like card games. I don't like board games. I generally just zone out when people start to explain rules to me in any capacity. God, I think you and I probably just really quite on. pleasant people. Unlike, this is such a leap and I really regret it, unlike the brilliant

Dolly Parton. You know, celebrity deaths, they do happen relatively frequently, but who didn't feel a real sense of loss last night? Yeah. It's so moving how unified everyone is in their love for her. Oh, completely. I mean, my children loved her. I always admired what she'd done in terms of her philanthropy, the songwriting talent, absolutely undeniable, the Glastonbury appearance in 2014, just her sense of self and the way she conducted herself. And I know from journalists friends who have either interviewed her or have been producers setting up interviews with Dolly Parton, sometimes getting her on the line and waiting for her to take part in the conversation. No one has a bad word to say about her. Not one person. Even Donald Trump managed to come up

with an appropriate tribute to her. That is why it feels so sad because it doesn't feel like There's many things left that bring everyone together and everyone completely and utterly is in agreement that she was amazing. Yes. And it's really sad to lose that. It is really, really sad. So to anyone who is a fully paid up Dolly fan,

I just hope you're all right and you're going to just acknowledge that this was such an epic life and so well lived. What a fantastic contribution she made to humanity. Share has been in touch from the States and says, I'm at work right now. Word is just being passed around the hospital that Dolly Parton has passed away. I'm not a celebrity follower. I don't watch much TV or listen to a lot of country music,

but her death has really bothered me. I feel like she's one of the last truly decent people left in the US. Between her immense philanthropy, both known and unknown, the books given to kids throughout her imagination library and the homes she helped rebuild after the Appalachian wildfires. What a legend she was. She built an incredible empire from her singing and songwriting, and I know everyone loved her. I really did. She'll be so greatly missed. Well, thank you, Cher.

And that's just an example, just one email from someone who just thought, this woman was special and I just want to say something about her. So I'm sure if you want to say something more, please do over the course of the next couple of days when we're not here. We'll be back on Tuesday. Well, guess who's back on Tuesday? Fee. And she's been to Norway.

Now, not a place I know anything about, so really looking forward to that. It is very thrilling because can I also just say that on our production team, we are also enormous Jane and Fee fans just generally. So as much as we've all enjoyed stepping in, I think everyone's very excited to have you back together. Oh, no, I'm looking forward to it. But that's not to say that you and Hannah, I mean, Hannah with her revelation yesterday about being on security at Pets at Home.

I mean, what was it you said earlier? Hannah, you've lived a thousand lives. She really has. I don't know about that. That doesn't even scratch the surface. You need to ask about her cafe work. Okay, we'll do that next time. But no, actually, a lot of people have really enjoyed hearing from you and from Hannah,

so we should say that too. Thank you. Now, yesterday, I have just said it, yesterday Hannah and I, well, Hannah had to listen to me talking about going to the Anish Kapoor exhibition at the Haywood Gallery over the weekend. And Wendy, in Boston in Massachusetts, says, another terrific podcast today to keep me company on my commute home from work. You were talking about going to the Haywood Gallery and thinking about what it might be like to be a security guard

at a museum. It reminded me of a really wonderful book I read about all that. It's called All the Beauty in the World and it's by an author called Patrick Boringly. It's a truly remarkable story about his time as a guard at the Metropolitan Museum in New York. Even if you're not into the the book is written in such an exquisite way and he writes so descriptively about his observations of people and the beautiful artwork he was surrounded by. Wow. Now that is very interesting, thank you.

And that's a very good recommendation. So that is the book is called All the Beauty in the World and the author is Patrick Boringly. Thank you, Wendy. Zoe says, I'm responding to Jane's call out for experiences of being a gallery attendant. In the 90s for about a year, I did just this at the Hornerman Museum.

in Forest Hill in South London. We worked seven days in a row before getting a day off. And this is the really, we weren't allowed to sit down. Oh my gosh. I'd spend all week dreaming about what I'd do on my day off. And then actually I'd be far too tired to do it when it actually rolled around. Yeah, I can imagine. I did try to make use of the time by reading all the info by the exhibits to educate myself,

but I could never retain all the information. We were in one gallery for a whole day. and a particular favourite was the Natural History Gallery where you might have to shout don't touch the walrus several times a day. And if you've got young kids in the summer holidays, I mean, you don't want to touch it, aren't you? I've been to the Hornerman.

Have you? With my boyfriend's young niece and nephew who took them on a day out. Oh, that's nice. And there is a lot of children and running around. So I can imagine that is quite full on work. Yes. But what a privilege in life to be able to shout,

don't touch the walrus. You were a captive audience for any staff who could move about the museum and would stop by for a chat. Some welcome, others not so much. Despite all this, I have fun memories of the job. The people were lovely, and, says Zoe, it's where I met my husband.

So it's the Horniman Museum in Forest Hill. You recommend that, do you? What else is in it? Sounds like a bit of everything. Well, there's quite big gardens and grounds and lots of interactive steel things that you can hit and there's an aquarium with some really beautiful jellyfish

against a really blue backdrop and they move in the way that they do where they blub, blub, blub. Right, that's the official noise of a jellyfish, is it? Sort of what I imagine if they were to make a noise, but actually was very peaceful. I was only saying earlier to one of our senior executives here at Times Radio

that we haven't had a giant jellyfish story this summer when it has been so hot. And as far as I know, and I could be wrong, we haven't had a story from a very specific beach where suddenly there were loads of giant jellyfish. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it has happened when I was away. You haven't been able to cross off your August bingo card.

I haven't crossed that off. And we also hadn't had a giant cat. But apparently there are rumours that there has been a panther spotted in the Northamptonshire countryside. So we stand ready to cover giant cats. But so far, as far as we know, there haven't been any confirmed sightings

of any giant cats, which is so peculiar, bearing in mind the extreme heat of the last couple of months in the UK. Dear Jane, Hannah, Even Fee, not quite sure who to send to. Claire, I understand exactly what you're getting at. As I said yesterday, Hannah and I,

we don't know whether we've been on foot or horse back over the last couple of weeks. I want to share my enthusiasm for art and the excellent experience I had recently at the Anish Kapoor exhibition. Now, I should say that Claire is just slightly putting me right here because I did go on Saturday. I was somewhat underwhelmed,

if I'm honest. But that's my bad. It's no judgment on the art involved at all. Regards in art galleries, top tip, it's always worth asking them questions about the work. And I confess to my shame, I hadn't thought of doing that, Claire. In the room at the Hayward Gallery with the massive red landscape, I was really, and I think I did take an image of that, and of course it was hopeless because all my photographs are just crap, I'm just absolutely useless.

Anyway, I was curious to know if they had put the red pigment which you mustn't touch, because there's a big sign, don't touch it. Whether they put it on before or after the sculpture came into the gallery. I wish I'd been clever enough to think about this. I approached the guard standing in the corner

and asked how it was made. To be honest, I wasn't completely sure how he was going to react. I thought he might be too busy protecting the work to want to talk. But in hushed and excited French tones, He told me what he thought had happened. The artist came into the gallery.

Yeah? He brings his people. We're not allowed in for five weeks, said the guard. So I can only guess what happens. He continued to explain for about five minutes, explaining how he thought the art was constructed. It was really interesting. That listening to Poirot explaining a murder.

I think he was very happy to talk to somebody, and I was so pleased to have had his interaction. It pushed my experience of the exhibition, way beyond expectations. I am an artist stroke art teacher, so I am an insider, but it's unfortunate many people believe they don't have enough knowledge about art to enjoy it or to talk about it. All that matters is how it makes you feel. If you feel nothing when you see a piece of art, then the art has failed. I could ramble on forever. I'm not good at writing. That's why I make pictures. Best wish is Claire. Claire, honestly, um, um,

It's a great email and thank you for it. She says, I was so excited to see that Anish Kapoor was at the Hayward because seeing his work, the scale of it makes me feel like a little child again. Don't forget his big red trumpets in the turbine hall, the Tate Modern some years ago. I mean, the turbine hall has got to be, it's such an overwhelming space that, isn't it? I am awe-struck by the size of that space. And art sometimes needs to be ginormous. and I can completely understand that the big trumpets in the turbine hall

will absolutely have served a fantastic artistic purpose. I find it comforting when people say that it just you can feel whatever and if you feel nothing then that's actually on the artist because I am someone who sometimes feels like I missed something or I got it wrong when I go to see art I didn't quite understand and I'm not getting whatever else is getting that actually is your interpretation. I hear what you're saying.

I think sometimes I feel under, like Claire or emailer, sometimes feel underqualified to make any kind of, and I just think, and this is in spite of my O-level in art. You know, I mean, I'm like a qualified artist in some ways. Yeah, yeah. You're wearing lots of colours today. Yes. It's an artist kind of blouse.

Thank you. It's one of my, it is one of my more colourful offerings, isn't it? Because you can go, you can spend too much time in navy blue. Yeah. I think sometimes I do. and, you know, sometimes I've got this shirt today, where's more of a blueson? It's got some white, pale and dark blue

and some lime green and, yeah, there's a lot going on here, isn't it, the more I think about it, the more terrible it sounds. Watercolours. Thank you, yes, yes, that's right. Charlotte, hello, Charlotte. Fie, come back, no. I do want to see her, though.

I met Charlotte on Saturday night after I've been to the Hayward Gallery. Now, unfortunately, after the Hayward Gallery, I did have a few drinks. And it was after the drinks that I met Charlotte. It was so good to talk to you on Saturday night. I think it was Baker Street we met at. But forgive me, I was a bit tipsy.

I did say that to her. And she acknowledged that that wasn't such a bad thing. Here is Charlotte. I was travelling home from central London on Friday night. No, it wasn't Friday night after a reunion and with primary school friends. Charlotte's had a few drinks, has that? Who I hadn't seen in 15 years.

And I recognised Jane getting off the tube. Honestly, Charlotte, I hope I'm right. I'm sure it was Saturday night. Boyed by a couple of drinks, there we are. I patiently waited at the top of the escalator and ambushed Jane, where she had absolutely no escape. It's honestly, it's always a pleasure to meet people who listen to the podcast because we are,

I honestly do feel that there are kindred spirits all over the world. And it's so lovely. We've already heard from Wendy in Massachusetts, from Cher, who's hard at work in the States as well, remembering Dolly Parton so fondly. We love hearing from people all over the world. Anyway, I moved back to the UK last month, says Charlotte, after living in Australia for 11 years. I only meant to go for two with my partner and our one-year-old daughter, Stevie. Jane, both you and my mum agree, I should never move abroad again. I think I did say that on Saturday night, or was it Friday?

Australia has so, so much to offer, but once my gorgeous daughter was born, I could no longer ignore the deep-rooted feeling that I wanted to be geographically close to my mother while I mothered. Your podcast was an anchor to me while I lived in Australia and it kept me company when I was navigating homesickness and the postpartum period with no family close by. Oh, Charlotte, that's lovely to hear. Thank you very much indeed. I know Fee will be delighted to hear that too. She's currently in Zone 6, soon to be residing in Godalming in Surrey, wish me luck in restarting the often painful process of making friends as an adult. Charlotte, welcome back to the UK. Thanks so much for talking to me on Saturday night, or was it Friday, it doesn't matter. It was lovely to have a chat.

And I think your partner was with you too. And forgive me, I think his name was relatively unusual. And I don't want to say it in case I've got it completely wrong. But Charlotte, drink was talking on both sides. Whenever we met, but it was lovely to do it. Molly is currently living elsewhere. A little bit like Charlotte, but Charlotte's now moved back to the UK. I'm a 32-year-old female, originally from Essex.

I came away from uni with an MA degree in history and politics. Looking back, my parents fell foul of the Blairism push for uni degrees and the promise of well-paid graduate jobs in abundance. However, it didn't quite work out for me like I thought it was going to. I travelled after graduation. I'm now in Australia. working in legal admin. This is what I want to say.

Your discussion about pensions and just how important they are made my blood go cold. I am currently on a sponsorship visa through my boyfriend's work. If we wanted to permanently move home after spending six years here currently and counting, wow, listen to this Eve. The Australian government would tax any pension withdrawal

at 65%. That is outrageous. 65% but I guess they don't want you to go do they that must be why they're doing it but that is that is that's extraordinary we have been talking quite a bit about how tough it is to get a job post uni so I'm just really want to read this positive story out because otherwise we're in danger of making people feel really quite depressed about everything when you know good things are going to happen you might just have to be quite patient I suspect but this is a from a listener called Rosie, who says, I've been listening to the stories of graduates not being able to find work, and I feel a lot of sympathy for all these young people who are struggling so much. But I did want to share a more positive side to the story. My son graduated two years ago and is now on an engineering grad scheme in Bristol with an aerospace company. My daughter graduated last month and she has an entry-level graduate job at a company in pool. God,

listen to this. She only applied for one job and was successful up. one interview. But look, that has to happen to some people, doesn't it? Yeah. It has to. I appreciate they are both very lucky and in the right place at the right time, but I just thought I'd let you know that there are at least a few grads who are managing to find work at graduate level and in a field they're interested in.

Rosie, thank you for that. I'm sure you're really proud of both your son and your daughter. Well done to them and well done to you. But obviously, there will be some people who think, what? Only apply for one job and got it. But statistically, that is going to happen to somebody. This is very interesting. It's from Sophie who says,

I am a recruiter myself, although within an agency. I do make a point of always replying to any application with something, at least to acknowledge the email. I also have a list of company names that I share with grads so that they know who to apply to. Often it's hard to know which company works in certain fields, but most companies don't use agencies for grad, roles. I recruit for acturies. It's very niche. Actories are very clever and justifiably well paid,

says Sophie. But it's amazing. Can we just Google Actuary? So we've got to clear, I think I know what they do, but I need to be accurate here. But it's amazing how many people apply for roles that they are totally unsuitable for. Have we got a definition of Actuary? An Actuary is a business professional who uses math, statistics and probability to measure and manage future risks. and their financial impacts. Right, okay. But this is really interesting, Eve. Sophie says,

my favourite was someone at Wagamamas applying for a role needing a qualified actuary with at least a decade of experience. On the other hand, I spoke to someone, this is also very concerning, who has developed an AI program that automatically applies to any job

that contains various key words. As you can imagine, this compounds the problem and companies then have to use AI to sort through everyone. Oh my God, this is a doom loop that benefits no one, says Sophie. My advice, and I have a son who'll graduate next year

so I'll be in the same boat, is to differentiate yourself as much as possible. Try and contact people directly as well as via the application link. Often it's the candidate that bugs you the most that gets to the top of the pile. Yeah, and it's good advice, but again, it just, when you're applying for such a high volume of jobs,

it just creates that extra step and that extra thing to do, which, I mean, you argue that that sets you apart and makes you the stronger candidate, but when you're told that you need to apply it to as many jobs as possible, it makes it so time-consuming. It's so hard. Yeah, but I hadn't realised that there was now a bit of AI that would allow you basically to ping off applications for absolutely everything.

I know, it's, yeah. As long as the right key words are there. I mean, that's, but that, and as our correspondent says there, that creates then another role for AI sifting through it. Oh, my God. And the more adept you are with AI, the stronger your advantage. So then it's like we should all be strengthening our AI skills because that's what you're competing with. But should we? Well, I'm afraid I'm just too busy.

She said, basically putting herself in the bin of life. I wanted to mention this, because we've talked a lot about travel over the last couple of weeks, mainly by who's Trump. because this is an experience that I wonder whether many more of you have had. We'll keep the listener anonymous at her request. I'm a long-time listener. I'm a 46-year-old NHS consultant. I'm married to another NHS consultant. I recently traveled to Romania for a summer holiday adventure with my husband and our two children.

My husband is British-born and bred. He's ethnically Chinese. Our children are mixed race. Both entering and leaving Romania, we had difficulties at border control. We were told there were system errors with our passports, despite all of us having previously completed our EES registration on another European trip. On arrival, my children and I were eventually allowed through while my husband was kept waiting. The situation was only resolved after our 12-year-old became so distressed that they burst into tears.

After finally getting through passport control, we walked through the Nothing to Declair Channel at Customs. An official appeared to make a beeline for us and immediately asked whether we were bringing in cigarettes or alcohol. Neither of us smoke. My husband is a lung cancer consultant and neither of us drink. On our journey home, something similar happened. Customs officials again came directly over to us,

questioned us about where we were going and took photographs of our passports. Of course, I can't know for certain what motivated any indivated any indivisputs. official, and the border control delays were explained to us as system errors. But taken together, the experiences left me with a strong sense that my husband was being singled out because he's Chinese. We saw very few East Asian people during our time in Romania, which made the experience feel particularly stark. As a white woman and the mother of two mixed-race children, I have tried to educate myself about racism and unconscious bias, including reading Renews.

Eddo Lodges, why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. But this trip did feel different. It was the first time I'd witnessed what appeared to be racial bias impacting my own family so directly right in front of me. It made me angry and deeply sad for my husband and children. It also made me reflect on the fact that for many black and other minority ethnic people in Britain, experiences of being viewed with additional suspicion or treated differently can be a far more frequent and entrenched part of everyday life. Well, to that listener, I'm so sorry that happened to your husband and to your children. It's a grim thing to have your 12-year-old bursting into tears when something like this goes on.

Even I are white. Well, I've never had experience any issues like this getting in or out of the country. And I've never been to Romania, so I don't know about the specifics of going to that part of Eastern Europe. But if you can just chip in on this conversation, let us know what's happened to you as you've traveled with your family over the last couple of months. Please do. It is Jane Anne Fee at times.orgia. Right. In Jay Rainer's book, he writes so much about all sorts of gorgeous foods. But the meal that I really wanted to eat on the basis of reading his book was from a restaurant on the Holloway Road in North London. And Eve, it was quite simply. lasagna and chips. Well, you'd fancy that, wouldn't you? Oh, no, you don't eat meat?

No, I don't eat meat, sorry. Right. She's such a joybringer. Boo-boo. Would you have vegetarian lasagna and chips? I would, and I would enjoy it very much. I mean, it's a double carb load, but... What's wrong with that?

Well, there's nothing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it in my experience. And I think occasionally, as winter draws on, so many of us will be turning to that. I think it's hard to imagine a lasan sauce. you're in heat. Well, I mean, we were talking earlier in the office. We do talk. It's quite incredible about how... Non-stop. Non-stop, pretty much. I just, I just, I honestly had fantasies about slipping on a coat. Yeah. It just feels like a distant dream. And I know you shouldn't say that

because sometimes winter can be rotten and it's horrible if you can't put your heating on because you can't afford it. But, oh my God. It does feel like there's a slight change in the air and I am ready for it. Normally I'm very much someone who digs their heels in. towards the end of summer and I really don't want it to go. No, but this time. But this time. Yeah. Bye summer.

Thanks very much. Okay, let's bring in Jay Rainer. Writer, broadcaster, restaurant critic. Which one do you like the best? Which title? I think writer is the one that is the best umbrella term. Because restaurant critic made me sound like a feeble velveteen fop, doesn't it? You know, just waving his cups over people's efforts.

Right. But I've been a print journalist for 35 years now And I've done a lot of different things Even though people know me as a restaurant cruise So I'll go with writer All right, well we'll let you have that Thank you. Now you broadcast on a speech network known to many

But it's great to have you with us here this afternoon Do we not name it? There's no need on Times radio Yes, it's lovely to be here And your latest book is Nights Out in the Kitchen I love food I'm already thinking vaguely about what I'm going to have later but let me just read a few things out to you.

Shaved fennel and lemon zest salad, slow-cooked tandoori lamb shoulder, a three cheese toasty, lasagna and chips. Of the four, which one would you have? Oh, oh, they're all my darlings, Jane. That's very, very hard of lasagna and chips, probably. But the thing about the lasagna and chips, I mean, one of the thing about all the recipes in this book,

a lot of them are recipes inspired by my favorite restaurant dishes over, the many ridiculous number of years I've been a restaurant critic and some of them my own. And often the recipes are part of being able to tell a story and I'm fascinated by the Anglo-Italian cafe story.

Yeah. Those places that do dishes that any God-fearing person from Bologna would just roll their eyes out. You know, there is no such thing as spaghetti bolognades. There is and it's served here in the UK and that's why.

Can I just ask briefly? Yes. Parmesan on fish, based pasta dishes. That's absolutely fine. I think so. Listen, if you run scared of the Italians and their food rules, there's no end to it. No into it at all.

I mean, you know, one of the other recipes in this is for braised spaghetti with meatballs. And I'm not sure brazing spaghetti, as in cooking it and stock in the oven, is a thing you're allowed to do within the greater Rome area. You know, they'd probably set somebody on you. Are the Italians more precious than the French then? Yes. Are they? Oh, I think they are much more precious.

And it's hilarious because, you know, every recipe is at some point invented or develops from something else. So that great rustic Italian loaf, Chabata, invented in 1986. The Carbonara invented in the Second World War to satisfy the hunger of American troops for bacon and eggs in their pasture as they were coming up the boot of Italy. you know, they get so grand about it and it's hilarious and some of it is fabulous and that's not pretend really good Italian food ideally eaten under a tree in Puglia or something delightful in every single way

but I also think food moves and develops and creates its own stories it's like that thing when people we've stopped doing the oh chicken tika masala isn't an Indian dish because it wasn't invented there and we now understand it as an Anglo-Indian dish which has been exported

back and it's a thing. You can't just pretend these dishes don't exist. So, you know, the Trevi, which is... It's in North London. It's on the Holloway Road. Being there since 1962, which makes it a relative newcomer to this world of the British Italian cafe. But it's a fantastic place and it's brilliantly cheap and on match days when Arsenal are playing, I really don't care about football, but I thought I'd make it sound like I did. It's absolutely rammed. And one of the things they do is this kind of classic British lasagna brackets served with chips. I mean, I could eat that every night. Couldn't we?

Couldn't we? I mean, I honestly could, actually. I know it's a carb load and I know we shouldn't do it. Carb on carb, denim on denim of food. Yes, it is a double denim, absolutely. What is it, though, about it that just makes it sound so alluring? So is this book about food? Is it about restaurants?

What is it? Who is it for? What is it about? It is a functional cookbook for a start. There are 65, perhaps even 70 recipes in there. You can use it as a cookbook and I hope people do. And the feedback I've had, because it's a sequel to Nights Out at Home from two years ago, which I've had lots of lovely feedback on the recipes.

But I'm a writer. So I'm going to tell stories. And, you know, there are many stories to be told. And the dishes are introduced with a journey around where those dishes come from. There's a whole section on things on toast. Oh, I was going to get on to that. Well, we can get on to that in a minute. But it's all of those things.

It's both narrative nonfiction and functional cookbooks. So you don't have to pick it up and read it from beginning to end. You can use it as a cookbook or you can put it on your bedside table. Or you can buy it and never read it. I really don't care. Well, you particularly don't care if someone buys it and doesn't read it. No, I mean, you really doesn't. I want to know, I mean, London, some restaurant critics,

not looking at you necessarily, are accused of being London centric. There's a lot of references to places elsewhere in the UK in this book. And I was really pleased about that. that because there are some great places to eat outside London. I mean, you know, it's a fabulous country in which to eat. It wasn't always the case. I started in 1999 and I would be lying if I claimed that it was always possible to eat well everywhere. There came a point when I realised, as you said, I present a show for another speech network

and it takes me all over the country. And there was a point, and sometimes we stay overnight and then we've got a whole team to feed. And there was a point I suddenly realized if I looked hard enough, I would find somewhere good anywhere. And then you end up sort of sounding like you're being an utter snob. I found somewhere fabulous in Aberystrid. Well, I did. I found a fantastic place called Arabic flavour, run by a Syrian refugee,

a woman called Gophon Hanzer. And the food was fantastic and served the best backlava I've ever eaten. So I went back and for this book, got her to teach me how to make that backlava. Yeah, and that's one of the beauties of the book, that there are so many recipes, ideas, but place names and parts of the country where immigrants have come have brought their culture, have brought their food,

and where would we be in this country without people moving to this country and telling us and teaching us how to eat different sorts of things? You can eat more broadly and more deeply in this country than you can, frankly, anywhere else in Europe. It's one of the classic British middle classes, the summer like we're having, and they swan off to the dodoin, and, you know, the food's delightful.

Fri-Sé salad and confid de canard, tauto citron. That's day one. Day three, it's, oh, a frisat salad, Gigo, Daniel, lamb. By day four, what they wouldn't do for a Thai green curry, but they're never going to find one. No. I mean, frankly, I love France, obviously.

Who doesn't? But I'm not sure it's anywhere near, close to being my favourite cuisine. I really don't think. I love the French classics. I love the bistro. A beef bourgignon. Yeah, yeah. All those bistro classics.

There's a great story which I've never quite been able to pin down when it's called, you know, cuisine peasant, the peasant food. And as one historian, informally, she pointed it out to me, she said, yeah, no, the peasantry in France around that time reading millet. They weren't eating burgundyon d'obes and cock over. These were dishes invented by cosmopolitan chefs in Paris for the demi-monde. Did you start life professionally editing the lead student? magazine? Is that a test of my memory or of my accuracy? A listener wants to out you as being somebody who worked on the lead student magazine. Well, it wasn't a magazine. It was a newspaper. It was the

biggest student newspaper at that point in the country. It covered the university, the then Polytechnic and all the colleges. And yes, I was elected editor by a cross-campus vote. And it was my first job. There we are. I'd worked my way out through the paper. Right. That is from Kate. So Kate, it was, it was Jay Rayno. You're absolutely right. So can we just talk briefly about the three cheese toasty? Because you're... You reference an establishment I have been to. I haven't certainly... I'm only frowning slightly because of the three...

I may have mentioned it in passing in this book. Yes, you do. Because the original recipe is in the last book. But we can talk about it. Well, it's the stove top toasty. Yeah, that's the one. That's in a night's out at home. Well, it's also in here because I've read this.

Not the full... Have you read it from beginning to end, Jay? Well, I've certainly had a jolly good look, Jay. I think it... You won't find the full recipe for that in there, but I will tell you the story about it. It's the stove top toasty. And what I've learned from this book is that there are three different types of cheese

because the three different types of cheese bring something else to the toast party. You need something for sharpness like a cheddar. You need something for melt like a fontina. And you need something for stretch like a teleggio. I'm trying to remember if those are the right examples. But that's the point. You want sourness, you want stretch and you want melt. And that's what's so brilliant about that toast.

And it's no accident that it's created by Michel Rue. Yeah. Who, you know, one of his side projects is a pub called the Wigmore. And it is about a foot long. It is. Yeah. You want to watch on the web. I'm putting my fingers apart.

It's huge. Yeah, you actually don't need chips with that. No, you don't need chips of that. And it's, I described it to being the size of one of my feet and I have very big feet. Yeah, I can imagine you do. There's also, I like cocktails. I'm a late-life convert to the cocktail. And there's a cocktail in here

A real, Alessandro, the Twinkle. Now, what's in a twinkle? A twinkle is champagne, elderflower, cordial and vodka. And where might one procure a twinkle? Try your local barmen. Most good bars, when they hand you that menu, you should ignore it unless you see something you really like. Because most of them can make most of the things that you like.

They've learnt all of them. So, for example, my favourite, personal, absolute favourite, is a daquery. and most of them don't have it on the list. You just say, can you make me a classic daquery? And of course they can. What's in a classic daugree? Lime juice, white rum and sugar syrup. And there's nowhere to hide in it.

It's usually a test of bar people. It's how they're tested by the bosses. But the twinkle is a champagne cocktail. And is invented by a guy called Tony Coniglaro. I hope I've pronounced his. You're going to say Tony Twinkle then. No, Tony Twinkle would be great at the Lonsdale Bar. I came across it because it was served constantly at the Ivy Club,

which is a Ponzi members club above the Ivy Restaurant. I'm no longer a member, I hasten to add. But for a while they stopped serving it because once people saw the first one come out, everybody would order them. Because it's not quite as fierce as a full-on cocktail so you think, oh, I can keep going on these. It's a fatal.

It's a four-twinkle night. It's a six-trinkle night. I wouldn't want to meet me on a four-twenticle night. I really wouldn't. Chicken skin, please just explain your devotion to chicken skin. I think that we have been too narrow in the matter of scratchings. The word scratching is generally applied only to pork. And it shouldn't be?

Well, no, the pork scratching is a noble, noble item in every way. But other forms of skin are available. And chicken skin. I mean, anybody's roasted a chicken. I say anybody, it's probably everybody's listening, knows just how fantastic chicken skin is. It's the point of roasting a chicken. And there are ways to turn them into their own form of crackling.

It's a really interesting little method in that you first render them dry and then you add water and boil that out and that renders out the rest of the fat and then it cooks in its own fat. You have to define rendering, I'm afraid. Rendering is when you melt to the natural fats in a piece of meat. And so it's something that any household cook could do. Yes. Yeah, no special equipment required.

No special equipment, although they might want to buy a book to understand the recipe and the method. Well done, Jay. Thank you. Excellent. Now, you mentioned things on toast, and mince on toast is something that I'm sure we used to eat that routinely in the 70s. Well, I was also in the 70s and I didn't. So the background, maybe we had different, different upbrings, Jane. Well, we certainly were because I don't think you're a member of my family. One forgets when time passes.

There is a back story which is the website Eater, which used to be huge. They had 30 outposts across Europe and the States and Canada. They had a London outposts and they ran a thing which is called the Carnivore, I think it was called, which was a meat eater's video series. The guy had gone to the Quality Chop House, a restaurant in Farringdon. I don't know if you've ever been. It's very good. And he was reviewing this particular dish, which was beef mints cooked down in lots of

of beef stock and veal jus looked absolutely gorgeous and then it was put on a absolute to die for croutin cooked in dripping. So it's one to harden the arteries with. I did sound effects so it's like folia. Yeah, but on a winter's night and I don't know about you, I'm longing for winter. How good would that be?

Fantastic. Now, the problem with this post on ETA in 2017 was it described it as a quintessential British classic. And? Twitter, as was X now, went absolutely. Absolutely mad because they said, you know, fish and chips are a classic. Beans on toast are a classic. Mint's on toast is not a British classic.

Although later the Scots would claim it and the Kiwis. It became Mintsgate. It got a suffix. There was a hashtag. People wrote State of the Nation pieces. It was high summer. It was a row, zero calorie outrage. There was nothing at stake.

They're the best rouse. Yeah, they are the best rouse. The crowd gathered around the Eater website shouting, burn them, burn them. And eventually Eta did apologise. Oh, did they? Right. Let's bring in the listeners.

It's always a little dangerous here on Times Radio to bring in the listeners, but I'm doing it anyway. Rob says, I think this is the most middle-class conversation I've ever heard. Oh, Rob, you should get out more. Because we can up it. Really, we can.

We honestly can. We have a river cafe yet, but go on. It is one of those classic British things that if you start, firstly, yes, I am middle class and I won't deny my true nature. But there is a thing that if anybody, if the British start talking lovingly about food

and the joys of food, that's a good point. People attack us. People attack us as being in some way hoity-to-to-ty and above ourselves. Right. So, yes, we love it. I've just got an air fry us, boasts Keith. I do a ham and three cheese buttered toasty. I use gauder, cheddar and parmesan and it's lush.

Gowder, cheddar and parmesan. That's three hard cheeses. You don't think that would work. Well, no, clearly it does work because he likes it. I'm just curious as to where the melt and the stretches in there. I mean, the gowder would give you a bit of that if it wasn't too aged. Do you have a stance on air friars? I was given one to test, and it's the friar word is the thing that I think is the issue.

They don't fry. They are small convection ovens, and they're very efficient. They're brilliant in terms of power usage. and if there aren't many of you that you're cooking for, I think it's a superb thing to have. I think if you're one person living on your own. Absolutely. I have started looking slightly jealously

at certain things on social media that people can do with them and then realizing that my wife would kill me if I bought another piece of kit. Yeah, and you met her at Leeds University. I did meet her at Leeds University. Yes, that's right. Chicken shops,

we're getting away slightly from middle-class banter here, but there are, I couldn't believe it, There are 8,000 of them in the UK. No, that's 8,000 in London. The what? 8,000 in London. Yes. Okay.

That's the most shocking statistic I've heard this week, other than the suggestion from a contributor earlier in the week, that there are only 12,000 foxes in London, which I don't believe. No, I don't believe that. No, it's more like under 50s. There's only 12,000 foxes they've met. Exactly. So chicken shops...

I'm suddenly worried about it. You keep talking. I'm going to just quickly check my number. Okay. The chicken shops are very prevalent in the part of West London, where I'm very happy to live. And I do know how popular they are. I also know they represent really good value.

But what do you think of them? Should they be quite as popular as they are? Well, no, there is a reason why you raise it, because I have a whole section on a particular brand called Morley's. Other chicken shops are available. I don't even have to do that, do I really? Morleys grew out of South London, and I included them in a barbecue sauce chicken wing recipe

because I wanted to write about how significant and interesting it is as a cultural item. They are a third space in which people who can't go to pubs, young people who need to go somewhere, they meet and they are a fixture in their lives. And that is fascinating.

I think it's relevant when the New London Museum opens later this year, it's going to include the sign for the first mall as part of it. Are there too many of them? Yes, absolutely. But if we're going to start

going rah, rah, right, close them down, we have to ask other questions about the cost of food and food deserts, the lack of affordable cheap food. You know, too often, we had a complaint that we're all too middle class. The middle classes rage against people on low incomes, the socially excluded for their habits,

and sound like paternalist Tories, are going, well, you really have to better yourselves. We have to think rather more seriously about the causes of poverty and nutritional issues than simply saying that's not good for you and you should do better. Right. So you're not snooty at all. I'm lovely. Oh, look at that.

You just literally rolled your eyes at me. I hope that wasn't caught on one of the many cameras. Could we ever trust a menu with pictures? Now, I speak as somebody, I went to Greece on holiday last week, week before last. I love Greece. But there are a lot of restaurants where everything is photographed for you outside. And let's face it, about Greece. Most restaurants are exactly the same dishes.

I love them all. You know, I had that snobbery. There was various points over the years. There will be various things that are held to be true, and one of them was never go to a restaurant with pictures on the menu. One of the interesting things about the Greek language is, although it's part of the European family, it's a little bit impenetrable.

And if you're not completely up to date on your Greek dishes, some of that you'll go, I have no idea what that is. And given you were in a tourist resort with many nationalities, putting pictures on the menu, who doesn't seem like a terrible way to go. So you don't, you're not, you wouldn't dismiss a restaurant. Absolutely not. And specifically, there's a whole category of Chinese restaurants.

There are no pictures of the food in this book of mine, but there are illustrations and there are menus because people love looking at menus. And one of the places I talk about is a place in Swansea called Gigi Giles' favourite authentic Chinese restaurant. And the place is bonkers in every way, big giant stuff panda. She served us wearing a tight-fitting sequin dress and a tasseled veil.

And I then realized it wasn't a religious choice because her face was on the bottle of wine that she served us as well. There are pictures on that menu and they're reproduced in the book. And I think they're absolutely delightful. So it depends on what the culture is and how it fits into the culture. And also there will be certain cultures where literacy creates issues and, it has become, you know, part of the culture to present photographs on menus. And you also have views on waiters and the art of being a waiter. And I'm always quite intrigued by waiting staff who don't write anything down.

Oh, you're intrigued? Well, this seems to, it's a relatively recent phenomenon, isn't it? Or am I wrong about that? I think it is relatively recent, although I don't know if you'll agree. I'm literally just about 1060 and I've realized that what I thought of of as recent was actually quite a long time ago. Time is passing fast. Yeah, you know, you don't know whether the person who is trying to take down,

not take down your order with a notebook, whether they are, you know, the memory man or were on crack last night, whatever. And so often when they don't take an order down with a notebook, something's forgotten. So you think it's simply, it's grandstanding. It's completely unnecessary. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they want to show that, oh, they're just here and it gets in the way. I'll tell you my favourite story of taking an order without this is,

if you're upset about the middle-classness, brace yourself. Should a claxon go on? Yeah, absolutely. I was at Le Gavroche. It was one of my birthdays. And the great Silvano Gieldering, it was the great matrily. And he came along and he put his hands behind his back and said, what will we be having tonight?

and I ordered the woodcar, whatever. I ordered dinner and then I turned to my wife and said, that was amazing. He didn't write a single thing down. He said, no, but the lad about four paces behind the notebook took the order. Yeah. Okay. I love the mention in the book of your critic who didn't like your overuse of certain adjectives.

Now, I think punchy. It was punchy. It was punchy that you don't have. Greg had been reading my column with more attention to detail that can ever be strictly. But it is a real art form writing a restaurant column. I don't know how anybody does it. How do you keep coming up with different properly helpful ways of describing putting something in your mouth and then swallowing it? I wish I had said that now.

Thanks. It's good to meet you. The key to this, I think, is to regard a restaurant column as being like any piece of journalism. And my job, when I'm deciding where to go is, is to ask myself, what's the story? I have to work that out first and foremost because basically we're talking about a room, a table, a chair, a plate of food.

And if that's all I was writing about, a thousand words would be really tiresome. But if you can identify from the outset what this column is going to be about, then you're ahead of the game. And then the issue of how the food actually tastes becomes less urgent to you. Yeah, there are challenges

because how many times can you say sucking onto moist and let's be honest, how many times should you? I got into a habit for a while of using emotional responses. I said a curry sauce in an upmarket, fish and chip place, tasted of care, which I thought actually was all right

because that kind of tells you what it... You know, it's good. And I once wrote about a... I was actually asked to write a review of Rob Beckett and Rameshanganathan's one-night-only restaurant and there was a bottle of this apple sour liqueur horrible stuff, only a teenage boy could like. And I said that tasted of hate.

These things work. Yes, but they can only work once. Well, they can only work a few times. And then I appeared as a character in a Viz column, a cartoon strip called Foodie, euphism, well, not euphism for testicles. And it had me saying something like, describing a glue vine as tasting of all of Europe's hopes and dreams for Christmas. Jay Rainer.

Thank you very much. I'm so sorry we could have gone on for another 10 or 11 years. But Jay has to go. The book is out now. I'm also on tour. Yes. My website. Oh yes.

Nights out in the kitchen, Jay Rona's new book. And just to alert you, Kate Atkinson is our guest tomorrow. She's written another thumping good read. This one is called Our Nobleselves. and I have been raving about it forever because it's about the Festival of Britain and it's, oh, it's just fantastic. It's actually very poignant but also extremely funny.

So Kate Atkinson tomorrow next week, who have we got lined up next week? We have Ian Dale coming in on the Tuesday for your unfee's reunion. He's some sort of broadcaster, isn't he? Yeah, less said about that, the better. Wednesday we have your interview with Miriam Marglies, which you've already done.

And on Thursday, we have friend of the show, Scott Bryan, who's got a book about his kind of journey through television. I think it also ties into queer television and his experience with it. Well, what's it called, Out on the Box? I think it's called Out Now. Out Now? Which is a bit confusing because then you say...

Well, no, it's a good, it's a clever title, Scott. Out now is Out Now. Out Now is Out Now. I mean, it's a work of genius. Out Now, a queer journey through modern television. Scott, that's a good title. And that's going to be interesting. So a lot to look forward to next week.

Miriam, as I said yesterday, I think, was on sparkling form when we recorded the interview. She does actually, she's quite controversial about one particular British food and I think people are going to be very upset because Miriam has come right out against, of all things, the Yorkshire pudding. I know, hear about that next week, everybody.

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