Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Quality time with my orb goblet

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

Is kindness getting rehabilitated?The award-winning science journalist and broadcaster Claudia Hammond joins Jane and Fi in the studio to talk about her latest book The Keys to Kindness and asks which politicians will pass her kindest test.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off Air. It's Thursday, I'm Jane Garvey. And it's Thursday, I'm Fee Glover. Good. Well, it's good. I like the fact that radio presenters, back in the day, Chris Tarrant was always one for this. Most of his links just consisted of the date and the day. I loved Chris Tarrant. Did you? I never got that.

When I first moved to London, here in Capital, it just made me feel like I'd made a leap into a glamorous urban existence that I didn't think was humanly possible. At the time, I was living in Earls Court. It wasn't bad. No, it wasn't bad. But his kind of energy, because he always used to say, didn't he, they were broadcasting from the top of the tower.

That was great as well. What tower? I don't know. The Capital Radio Tower was probably only about eight floors. But it just sounded so dynamic, Jane. Right. Well, I wouldn't know about dynamic as I continue to prove. Now, we had an interesting programme today. I thought there was a really properly interesting conversation with the lady from the charity that specialises in helping care leavers and young people in care.

And she was talking about the John Lewis ad. And it's easy to mock the big superstore Christmas ads, isn't it? But this one is properly moving it's very moving so it details a foster family trying to get ready for the arrival of uh their it's Ellie isn't it a young girl a teenager who's coming to live with them and I mean it is beautiful I didn't cry at it but you know what I did know before I saw the ad what it was going to be about so I'm not sure that I'm not sure that I had a bit of inside knowledge on that. But it did make you well up, and that's very, very hard to do.

And all credit to John Lewis for not doing anything to do with product, actually, at all. It's just to do with message. I think there is a glimpse somewhere in one of the scenes of a John Lewis teddy, but other than that... It's not saying come into the shop and buy stuff though is it no but i think they rather hope that they'll be talked about yes and they hope that people will but look we are yes that's true um right i'm very conscious because we're talking in front of live microphones which is kind of what we're paid to do on a day when david walliams talking in front of a microphone

has been in the news. And you just have to be aware, don't you, that sometimes if you're going to speak in front of a microphone, David, he's learned his lesson, I hope. Watch what you say. You're not going to say anything. Ever. Claudia Hammond was our big guest on our show today. We can't say big show because that was Steve Wright. And although he's not doing it anymore, I don't think we can claim it quite yet.

Oh, look, I've got a King Charles ink incident with my pen. Well, don't get petulant with me. My pen! I'm not one of your people. My stinky pen! Well, that's not my problem. Oh, that's terrible, Jane. I've got to go and do something proper tonight.

That's never going to come off. Maybe you'll be greeting people with a clammy, inky handshake. Oh, dear, I look like I've come out of year six. They might think it's some sort of Masonic thing. Don't worry about it. OK, so our big guest today was Claudia Hammond. And she's very interesting. She's a psychologist, she's a science journalist and a broadcaster. And she does, what's the programme on Radio 4 that she does? All in the Mind.

All in the Mind, yeah. And she's also done a lot of work on kindness, hasn't she? Yes, so her book is called The Keys to Kindness and in it she examines seven different mechanisms to unlock kindness and her basic premise is that if we just embrace kindness in a different way, didn't see it as a kind of, I don't know, slightly soft skill, then the world would be a much better place. Yeah, so this was a piece of research that we did with my colleagues at the University of Sussex with psychologists. And it was an online study where people, we asked people questions like,

what was the last kind thing that somebody did for you? And what was the last kind thing that you did for somebody else? And we looked at personality and we looked at all sorts of different factors to try to get to the bottom of what kindness is really. And so then in my new book, The Keys to Kindness, then I look at the seven keys basically to how we can be kinder and how we can be kind in a way that isn't soft, but that makes a difference. So kindness does get a bit of a bad rap. It's seen as a slightly kind of weak skill, a soft skill, just an emotional thing to do. But your whole point is that it's just far more fierce than that, isn't it? Yeah, I think it can be. So I take quite a muscular approach to

kindness. You know, I don't think it has to be something soft. It doesn't just mean being sort of nice and weedy and letting everyone else walk all over you it can mean um it can mean hard things i mean it means everything from making people a cup of tea to saving someone's life uh and doing something really heroic to save their life and everything in between which can mean forgiving somebody listening really properly when people talk to you and not looking over their shoulder to see who might be there who's more interesting and maybe noticing when someone's left out or any of those sorts of things it can be any of those and it can make a real difference because it makes a difference to the receiver obviously but it also makes a difference to us so I don't mind if people are kind as long as it's authentic if people are kind partly because of the benefits that are for them. Do we live in particularly unkind times? Is that why the whole kindness test was developed and

thought about? Yeah, I mean, I started writing about kindness during the first lockdown of the pandemic was when I had the idea for the book. And I thought at the time I noticed it because actually I noticed how kind people were being. So I think it can feel as if we're in a very unkind world and it is true that two-thirds of the people that we talked to who two-thirds of the people who took part thought that people had either become less kind or stayed the same during their lifetimes but two-thirds of people also thought that people became kinder as a result of the pandemic and so I'm thinking if we started this, we can harness that and carry on being kind to each other, because it doesn't feel like a very kind world at the moment. And if you look at the news, there are, you know, all sorts of terrible things going on. But in a way, cooperation is the thing that will solve those problems. And

cooperation is about human relationships and human relationships are about kindness. And so we can make things not as hard. It's not going to solve the world's problems. Can you be kind if no one has ever shown you kindness? So I suppose I'm asking, how do you teach small children? I know you write about how incredibly horrible the average two-and-a-half-year-old or two-year-old can be. How do you teach children to show kindness to others?

Yeah, it's interesting interesting because in one way they're not that hard to teach because it seems like we do want to be kind so although toddlers will do horrible things and it will seem as if they're you know having a tantrum in the middle of the street and taking no notice at all of what you're of what you're doing and what anyone else thinks about it and we know that at that age they don't know what other people think about it is that we know that we do know that we know that they they don't know what other people think about it is that we know that we do know that we know that they they don't know what other people think they don't have this thing called theory of mind so they don't know what adults are thinking however it is almost as if they want to be kind and so there are really lovely experiments and the videos of these are so sweet where they do

things like they get an adult who's carrying a big pile of books and can't open a door and even two-year-olds often will open the door for them. And then they get a toy they really like, and they will put down the toy and open the door. And then they get a toy they really like and put obstacles in their way, and they will climb over the obstacles in order to do the kind thing. And so in a way, if you try and teach them kindness, you are kind of knocking at an open door

because we have evolved to be kind. We have evolved to cooperate. And in one way we have evolved to be kind we have evolved to cooperate and in one way we want to be kind to each other we just don't always do it in certain situations and actually to go back to the question i think i was originally attempting to to ask which was about how you teach kindness to someone who perhaps has never been shown it has grown up in a really horrible possibly abusive home yeah i think i mean one way is by showing them kindness we know that there is there's good evidence that kindness can be contagious and so if people are kind others will be kind to them too and by really listening um to them and listening to what they say and

really saying their point of view and by modeling it in a way is the best way of teaching people which is the way of teaching children as well by modelling them, modelling it, showing them your kind and that you do these things and that you take other people's perspectives into consideration and always ask, well, why are they doing that thing? And I think if someone's mean, it's worth thinking, well, what is going on for them? Why are they being mean in that way? Is something else happening here? Because most of the time, most people are trying their best. Obviously, there's some, you know, really cruel things that go on. But most people are trying their best most of the time, most people are trying their best. Obviously, there's some, you know, really cruel things that go on. But most people are trying their best most of the time. What is the kindness twitch?

So I think what we should do is we should become kindness twitchers, if you like. So I think we should go around looking for kindness, because the moment you start looking out for it, it is there. So on the way here on the train, I saw two different people carrying pushchairs, you know, up the stairs for people. And if you start looking out for it, there is kindness all around us all the time. So in the kindness test, we found that 49% of people had received an act of kindness within the previous day. And of those, a quarter of it was in the previous hour. So there are these kind acts happening all the time, but they're not as salient because we know from loads of psychological research

that we notice the negative things that go on much more. And we do need to because you need to notice, you know, if a bear is about to chase you and kill you, it is helpful to notice that. So we notice the negative things. We know that if you get a crowd of faces... What trade did you come in on? You know what it's like. But if you show people a load of faces and there's one angry person get a crowd of faces... What train did you come in on? You know what it's like. But if you show people a load of faces

and there's one angry person in a crowd, they can find that much faster than the happier person. So we're primed to spot the negative things. And inevitably, the news is full of negative things because that's what makes the news. We don't need to know that, you know, 20 people weren't murdered in Newcastle last night, but we do need to know if they were.

So we don't obviously, you know, hear all when nothing happens or when it's fine. So if you start being a kindness twitcher, you can start looking out for it yourself. And then the world doesn't seem quite as bad if you start noticing nice things. I mean, there've even been experiments getting people to do kindness scrolling, where instead of doom scrolling online, where you look all day at miserable things, you can deliberately look for kind things. Well, you know, it was Martin Lewis, wasn't it, years ago, the BBC newsreader, who said, and he got so much stick for it,

he actually said there ought to be a special section, not an and finally, but a special happy news broadcast. And he was vilified, the poor man. I actually think that's probably, based on what you've just said, there's probably a really good case to do exactly that isn't there i mean possibly i think you could have some things kind i think if you tried there have been attempts to make sort of whole kind news bulletins and there was a happy newspaper launch there was there was and they're not they often tend to be i mean they're not as gripping as i'm afraid as the terrible things

that have happened. So but I think there are ways of making space in your life to look for for the kind things that do happen and to notice them and to share them. I mean, one thing you can do is deliberately on social media, stop rewarding people who are being argumentative and difficult mean by even by arguing with them, because that's still pushing them up, is to reward the people who give a nuanced view and who are kind and who are nice by following them giving your attention to them why do women suffer so badly from being considered to be kind in a weak way is that always going to be with us haven't we made advances in equality to the point at which we shouldn't be attributing kindness only to one gender and seeing it as a bit of a kind of negative. Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. I think it is a shame when women sometimes are made to feel that if they're the kind one,

then that's somehow weak, that they're the nice one. And, you know, there's things like, there's a book called Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, you know, sort of implying that it's a real mistake to be nice at work and that no one will notice and and i think it's true that if people hope to say you know really succeed and get promoted just by being nice and hope that will be noticed then that won't that won't be but there is loads of evidence that um kind leaders do better and are more successful you can be kind and win, if you like, while still being kind to everybody else. And ethical leaders can do really well. And if they set an example, which others then follow and they model that,

then they then can end up with kinder organisations. And there's evidence showing that people will stay longer at those and not want to leave so much. You know, I think the whole sort of apprentice, you're fired, let's make it all tough idea really is out of date now. But, you see, you say that, say that but you know across the world the leaders making the most noise possibly leading the most people uh are not kind men yes and that is true and who would rather be you know you could be trump or you could be jacinda ardern and i know which one you know i'd rather be her

popularity slipping well it is a bit but she still is prime minister and she still got in even though she talks openly about kindness and you know Gareth Southgate talks openly about kindness and kindness in a team in a in what you'd think would be one of the most macho environments there is so I think I think kindness might be getting rehabilitated and changing good point. Let's hope you're right. I was very interested in a comment you made earlier, and it's interesting in the book as well, about the link between bravery and kindness. Now, this is something that I'd like you just to expand on, because I'm not sure I get it. I know I'm not brave. I'm not physically brave. And I've been in situations where I could have done more to help other people. And I was too busy worrying about myself. So does that make what does that make me a wimp or unkind or both? think lots of people want to be kinder and it wasn't that people were mean and it wasn't that people didn't have time although that came up the main thing was that they thought they might be

misinterpreted and I think there's a real fear of embarrassment there's a real fear that we might intervene and do the wrong thing yeah and I think that can stop people in an emergency but even in smaller things as well and I I find myself doing it all the time I think of myself as a kind of hesitant helper that after I've gone past I think think, oh, what I could have done there was, you know, help and do this. And do you revisit that whole scenario? Well, now what I'm trying to do, ever since I've read all the research on it, what I've been trying to do is to not be a hesitant helper and to decide the worst that happens probably is that I'm a bit, just a bit embarrassed because I've misunderstood and they didn't want any help. And of course, it's always good to ask people if they want help. You know, someone I know who's blind says he barely

dares, you know, stop on a street corner because he gets dragged across the road and without anyone asking. So obviously, you need to ask people if they want help and not just force it on them. And is it really true that sometimes you can be cruel to be kind? I think so. I think being kind is actually really hard. So if you think of bosses and leaders, you could argue that you could just be kind and, you know, let everyone go off for the afternoon and do nothing. And you could do that every single afternoon, but that wouldn't be very kind because the work wouldn't get done and they would soon lose their jobs because things would all go downhill. And what if, say, a boss has got one person, and I'm sure none of us have ever experienced this,

where they're not really doing any work and everyone else is doing it for them, but they're somehow getting away with it. I think it might be ringing a few bells for fee at the moment. I can hear a bell clanging, in fact. Can we just talk, because you do give an example, we're not going to get you to name names, where you go to a couple of leaving dues of venerated colleagues,

one of whom has an absolutely glittering send-off. Everyone is there. And then the other person, not so glittering. A fair number of people still turn up, though. And at the latter event, the person who's retiring or leaving is spoken about with great fondness. And at the first event, although everyone is everyone is there, everybody's gathering in corners and saying,

they were an absolute pain in the backside exactly and i think there is a thing of which you know which do you want to be at the end of the day do you want your colleagues to remember you as the kind person or the cutthroat you know they're really successful they were both successful but the really successful um cutthroat person i think it would be so lovely to have people say oh well actually she he was was was really kind and and you can do that by doing really small things they haven't got to be massive things you know you were talking about heroism you can save people's lives and that's great and don't let me stop anyone doing that

but even the really small things of just noticing what some that somebody might be a bit off today or you know literally the making people cups of tea or the just the just noticing or using people's names saying hello to people saying goodbye to you They're really small things that really make a difference. And they've done experiments where they got people, they did one at the headquarters of Coca-Cola in Madrid, where they got a load of people and they told half of them that they were going to be doing some kind acts. And they had to pick a day where they did five kind things for one of a list of 10 people. The 10 people didn't know these were happening to them that they'd been told to. And then they looked at the end of the

month for everyone's well-being. It had all gone up, the people who received the kindness and the people who gave the kindness. But a month on from that, the people who gave the kindness, their well-being levels were still higher. So they were actually gaining something out of the giving it as well. So in a way that, you know, there's not many downsides to it. Yeah, but even so, there just seems to be, I mean, if we were entering a cost of living crisis, we're in very hard financial times, you know, people are up against it. If you're running a business, you know, you've got to have super fine margins, all that kind of stuff. sometimes fair to just to just not be putting kindness first because you just got to keep going is it sometimes a bit indulgent oh I don't think

it's indulgent so I think yes people need to they need to say you know if they're running their business they need to keep it going or it's going to then be unkind for those who work for them who are going to lose their jobs but I think at the time, it doesn't have to be something that's really time consuming, because it can just be saying hello to someone, you know, it can just be things like at the moment saying when things are difficult, saying hello to somebody in your local shop as you're buying something, you know, talking to strangers, there's lots of research showing that counts as as an act of kindness in a way, you know, talking to strangers, just trying to leave every situation a little better than when you arrived. It hasn't got to be some grand gesture and it hasn't got to

be something indulgent. What is the Ruthless Compassion Institute and can we all join? Such a great... Ruthless Compassion. Institute. I mean, is it a place? Ruthless Compassion Institute. I mean, so there's lots of studies on compassion and compassion is, it is, in a way, compassion's got a bit of a better reputation than kindness i think i think in a way it's a it's a better word well empathy is the buzzword and or empathy yeah and i think it's interesting that the research in this area in organizational psychology is um instead called um they tend to call it ethical leadership rather than kind leadership and i think that is because too many people wouldn't like the idea of kind leadership because they would have this fear that it's soft, which is why I want to rehabilitate that word. But there's also

really good research about self-compassion and that if you are compassionate towards yourself, then you are at less risk of developing depression, your mental health is likely to be better. Because sometimes we give ourselves a really hard time, you know, we say much meaner things to ourselves than we'd say to someone else. If we've made a mistake at work, we might really beat ourselves up for it. And if a friend had made the same mistake, you need to think, what would I say to a friend, you'd say, Oh, well, you know, I'm sure you tried your best. And well, I'm sure you'll try not to do it again. And things happen and you know try and put it behind you and yet we don't say that to ourselves but but we should be yeah and so so so there are places that are trying to

teach people compassion have we got time just for a quick word on the whole what was the old saying never a borrower or a lender be that which i never totally understood i know what you mean about that phrase yeah i don't get it. Don't get me started on cheap at half the price. I've never understood that. But the idea that by being kind to somebody or by being generous, they then owe you and they actually resent that feeling. Yeah.

That's real, isn't it? Yes, that is real. So in a way, you don't want to do something, you know, if you suddenly went and gave all your neighbours bouquets of flowers every day, then they're going to feel a bit uncomfortable about this because they they have to do that in return you know what is this thing you're doing it's over the top so it needs to be authentic and the right kind of kindness at the right level I'd say god this is complicated stuff isn't it it's easy just to be

mean isn't it is it changed has it changed, all of this studying of kindness? It's changed me in terms of this trying to be, trying not to be a hesitant helper and trying to think, yeah, I am going to look out for the moments when I can be kind. So the other day I was running along the street and I saw a driver trying to drive into a garage and he paused and I didn't really see why he was pausing what was going on. And I realised there was one of those electric bikes just lying across the pavement. And I'd already run past when I noticed this and I thought, I'll look stupid if I turn around and go back. And then I thought, or will I? I'll turn around and go back.

I'm not going to see him again. How stupid does that look? He'd be pleased. And he was. And he was pleased. Yes, he was pleased. That was the award-winning science journalist and broadcaster, Claudia Hammond.

And I thought she made some really interesting points. We did get an email from a woman who was just angry that, and I do get her point about this, although it wasn't actually directly related to what we were talking about, all those girls' T-shirts that bang on about being kind. Kindness is cool. Yeah, that type of stuff. Be kind in pink lettering on T-shirts that are only ever,

well, I shouldn't say this really, more likely to be worn by girls than boys and this particular mother did object to that whole business of girls and kindness being forever linked when young boys are not obliged apparently to be kind yeah so Claudia Hammond wants to overturn some of those stereotypes in her book which I really enjoyed reading and it made me think about my own behavior a lot by the end of it so that's always a good thing too. We also talked about a fantastic article in the Saturday Times this weekend which is all about things that make you feel a bit ick which is a term I hadn't heard before but it's from Olivia Atwood from Love Island fame.

She had a very brief stay in the jungle but very brief left after about 24 hours and i just wanted to run some of these past you can i run these past you these are table manners ics so things that make you just go well i will say yes if i do these things yes describing fish is too fishy no i don't do that holding a fork like a spoon no not usually. Any conversation with a sommelier, but especially one in which you say, I know what I like? I definitely wouldn't do that. The face you make when you taste the wine? Don't know because I never do. Eating chips with a fork? I do do that and I don't know what's wrong with it. What's wrong with that? Well,

apparently it makes lots of people feel a little bit ick. Well, how else are you supposed to eat them? With your fingers? Waiting outside the restaurant rather than at the table if you're the first to arrive. Don't get that. I do that all the time. I'm a bit nervous to go in and just plonk myself down if I've got other people to meet. I like to go into a place together, Jane. I know. You're a woman.

Drinking a cocktail from one of those enormous orb goblets. Yeah, I don't like those. No, but I just love the enormous orb goblets. Yeah, I don't like those. No, but I just love the phrase orb goblets. I'm going to go home and spend some quality time with my orb goblet collection tonight. I think that's great. There's also a very interesting interview in the Times Mag on Saturday with Anne Glenn Connor, Lady Glenn Connor, who's already written a really hugely successful memoir. But she, in her second book, goes into a bit more detail about the horrific domestic abuse she was subjected to and it is wonderful at the

end of a very long life with a lot of tragedy in it this woman who's had immense privilege in her life as well as a lot of heartbreak has is just having a little bit of time in the Sun isn't she she is she feels good and do you what she's such a testament to listening to older people as well, because her life experiences go all the way through the darkness into the light. You know, she has

experienced really horrendous grief, as well as horrendous abuse in her life. But the story that she tells of the things that she knows, they are really stories worth hearing worth understanding you know i think she's amazing i'm glad that she's able to enjoy this bit of success yeah i hope she does enjoy me too a couple of very quick emails thank you very much

indeed for all of your emails sent to jane and fee at times dot radio this one from tessa said i just listened to the Monty Don episode, which was hilarious. My dog, coincidentally called Monty, often performs his personal hygiene routine, we know what that means, with great relish and much noise when I'm talking via Skype or on the phone.

I have to excuse the revolting slurping sounds in the background. Apart from that, he is the most gorgeous greyhound. So glad to find the new podcast as I was a recent adopter of your last one and was gutted to find you ending it so soon after I joined the club. Well, welcome aboard this one, especially if you've got a gorgeous greyhound. I find that Nancy doesn't do very much, that's my greyhound by the way, doesn't do very much hygiene, but she does let rip quite a few bottom burps. And sometimes it's been incredibly difficult to keep a straight face

when I've been working from home on the Zoom, doing a very, very serious and important interview with somebody as this terrible smell wafts around the room. So I sympathise, Tessa. I don't sympathise with Chris, who's listening in New Zealand and is struggling with the time difference. Twice already this week, I've woken in the wee small hours

with first world problems on my mind. All the usual techniques to get back to sleep have been conveniently overlooked. But just knowing that you're out there means I've been powerless to resist reaching for the headphones to access your wit and wisdom. Not ideal, I know,

but it sure beats counting sheep. So we're in New Zealand, live on the radio between four in the morning and six. That's bizarre. Chris, the only answer is to move to the UK. For heaven's sake. Be sensible. Honestly, what's so difficult about that?

Please read the one about alpacas. Oh, which is the one about alpacas? A friend of mine, says Anna, who recently went walking with alpacas, told me that like the two of you, alpacas always go to the toilet in the same spot. It's one of the reasons they, and presumably you, are well suited to visiting schools and care homes, etc. Very unlikely to wee on the carpet. Also, my friend was assured the alpacas were only liable to spit if you touch them in the wrong place. So again, liable to spit if you touch them in the wrong place so again similar to you two in that sense I imagine right thank you Anna I feel that we've become slightly

obsessed with the toilet procedures and the what should we call Monty's Ned what was he he was just giving us a masculine display and maybe next week we'll try not to refer to the private parts of animals. But Mr Don is not exactly discouraging this because I've now started following him on Instagram, Monty that is, and Ned's bits were on display again today. Put them away, Ned. A long-time listener just says that they enjoyed my story about the sign that I put up in the ladies' toilets being taken down.

At my last workplace, says Anonymous, I corrected a grammatical error on one of the signs on the backs of the doors in our loos by crossing out the offending word and replacing it with the correct one. A few days later, I was called to a meeting with my line manager who presented the sign, now removed from the door, and demanded to know if I had defaced it. I had to own up to committing such a dreadful crime. A photo of the sign is attached. And our correspondent took exception to this sentence.

There has been several complaints about the state these toilets are left in. There have been. Oh, that's what they corrected it to and they got into trouble. There was a story in the paper today about the, and it's very serious, a plaque that's been, yeah, I think it's a plaque. about the, and it's a very serious plaque that's been, yeah, I think it's a plaque, it's been put up in Swindon, marking victims of Covid and those who

helped to care for people with Covid in that area during the pandemic. But there's horrific grammatical errors all over the memorial and people are getting really, really twitchy about it and I'm not surprised. There's a full stop where there shouldn't be and there's a capital needs to be somewhere and there isn't one.

It's very frustrating. Anyway, Anonymous, thank you for being part of my very special club of people who make homemade lavatory behaviour signs and then get into trouble for doing so. A club that everyone wants to join. Well, it's exclusive. Yeah, it really is. Right, have a lovely weekend, Garth.

I'm sorry I've made a terrible mess here in the studio. We've only been here a month and I've already really defaced it with a leaky biro. I can only apologise. Back on Monday, already looking forward to it. Oh, and as this is Thursday, we ought to remind you that there's also a bonus edition for Friday. And it's all football related.

Women talk sport. Yeah, women talking sport. Never catch on. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you liked what you

heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye. for live radio jeopardy thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon goodbye