Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Raisins with consequences

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

Jane gives us her favourite facts about Saint David, while Fi ponders an acorn of an idea for a matchmaking service. They're joined by Richard Reeves, writer and academic, to discuss his book 'Of Boys and Men: Why the modern male is struggling, why it matters, and what to do about it'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm ready whenever you are. I'm always ready Jo. Just absolutely poised at any moment to start podcasting. Yes, well, welcome. Welcome to Wednesday's Off Air, March the 1st. Oh, it is, isn't it? Pinch punch, first of the month. And happy St David's Day. Thank you very much indeed.

Yes. Didn't you know he'd been a vegetarian? Or indeed that he was teetotal? Or indeed that apparently his mother gave birth to him in a storm on a clifftop in Pembrokeshire. Well, these are all interesting facts, aren't they? They are. But yes, I'm sure that there's a book,

probably Reverend Richard Cole's darling Dickie, as we know him, will publish a book on well-known vegetarian saints. Actually, he could do a cookery show, couldn't he? Is he a vegetarian? Cook with the saints. No, he cooks a lot, though, doesn't he? Oh, he does, yes. And hisknown vegetarian saints. Actually, he could do a cookery show, couldn't he? Is he a vegetarian? Cook with the saints. No, he cooks a lot, though, doesn't he? Oh, he does, yeah. And his thing is saints.

Oh, yes, that's right. He does a saint for every day. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a Saint Jane? I don't think there is. Who's the patron saint of broadcasters? I'll look it up.

You keep talking for a little while. Well, thank you to everybody who emailed us in response not just to yesterday's podcast or radio show, but just in general, because it's the gubbins of daily life that we're happy to just connect with, just make use of on this podcast. So Jane and Fee at Times.Radio, if you have anything to add. Caroline says, I enjoyed your podcast about the history of breastfeeding yesterday. That was our interview with Joanna Woolfarth, who's written that amazing book called Milk. But Caroline says, I did feel compelled to message. I was diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer at the age of 43 with no family history of it. I've just finished 15 months of treatment, which has been really hard.

I breastfed both my children for 14 months, mainly as I struggled to get them on a bottle. I enjoyed breastfeeding, but I also found it very isolating at times. I also found although health professionals are obsessed with breastfeeding, there isn't always the support out there to help. Anyway, my point is I lost count of the number of people who got breast cancer despite breastfeeding and having seen information and having been told in the past how breastfeeding reduces your risk of getting breast cancer. This stat really annoys me. Wonder how they've come to the conclusion. How do they know it protects against getting breast cancer? I feel like it's yet another thing trying to guilt women into breastfeeding. Anyway, rant

over, says Caroline. Caroline, thank you for that. And really good to hear from you. And I must confess, I'm not sure whether, is it routinely said to women that breast cancer is less likely if you breastfeed? Well, I've had that said to me. And I do. Yeah. And I also remember when Kylie Minogue was open about her breast cancer diagnosis, it was a point of conversation then because I think she was quite bold wasn't she in talking about how worried she was about her fertility being affected by chemotherapy radiotherapy or any breast cancer treatment and I remember that coming up in the conversation because I think I'm pretty sure I didn't have kids at that time but

was of that age where I was kind of thinking, will I ever have kids? And I remember putting it in that kind of very long list of things that women are told about why having children is an imperative if you have a womb. Yes. And it allegedly helps your general well-being. I totally get your point, Caroline. It must have made you absolutely fume. Particularly, by the way, as you did it for 14 months. I mean, that's an incredible thing to have done. So I really hope you're proud of yourself for persevering with it. But Caroline's spot on when she says that health professionals, although obsessed with breastfeeding, don't always provide the support support out there if you actually want to do it and carry on doing it. So I think she makes a really good point there. Thank you for that. And also a very good email from Diane and it's a lovely long email I'll just read one

paragraph if that's all right Diane she says I found in all of the breastfeeding discourse there was very little about people who really couldn't breastfeed I'm pretty sure based on the shape of my body and breasts and some subsequent surgery that I had insufficient glandular tissue and that meant I would never be able to generate sufficient supply for my children. The Lalesh League were amazingly non-judgmental and helpful in the run-up to the birth of my younger son and I found it absolutely fascinating to hear the conversations about aversion and other challenges faced by those who fed better. My children are healthy, smart and in every other way have had the best possible start in life.

We're so lucky that we had access to ample formula and were able to sterilise, etc., without worrying about where the money would come from to pay for the powder or the energy. And we had maternity and paternity leave to take time with our children. And Diane ends by saying, thank you for your show and your sparkling dynamic

which I just loved as a phrase it's one way of putting it Diane yeah it was a very nice way to put it it's lovely actually Diane says that she partly not exactly inspired but partly influenced by our decision to leave our major employer after 125

years of working for them it was longer well I covered the hundred years war and I tell you what that was leave our major employer after 125 years of working for them. It was longer. It was longer. Oh, it was longer. Well, I covered the Hundred Years' War. And I tell you what, that did drag on at times. No, it isn't easy, as Diane knows, to leave a job or an institution that you've been in for a long time.

Anyway, she has done it herself. And she says it was scary to go, but scarier to stay. And I think that, in the end, was why we left, wasn't it? That and other factors. OK, that and other factors. Let's be honest. The canteen is good here, as we often say. Diane, I hope you're doing well.

It does sound as though you are in your new position, your professional life, so congratulations to you. Shall we talk hedgehogs? Oh, let's. This is from Claire. Couldn't resist responding to your interview on hedgehogs. This was on the Times Radio show, wasn't it? Not on the podcast.

But we were doing a conversation about hedgehogs scrapping with each other. Oh, but I think it made it into the podcast. Oh, did it? Because the lady we spoke to was so good. Right, OK. Forgive me. I can't always listen to everything I do. Well, you haven't got enough hours in the day, darling.

They're just not. 13 years ago, said Claire, I moved from the UK to New Zealand, and I was thrilled to find some of my native country's wildlife dwelling here. The hedgehogs here really know how to thrive. The plant and insect life are so abundant here, and they have no predators, so they've grown to be enormous. It's actually quite frightening. I've seen some gigantic ones in my garden and as much as I love them, I can understand why they're not as popular with the locals. They've got huge appetites and unfortunately

they have been known to munch on endangered native bird eggs and other precious creatures. My family and I have rescued nine hedgehogs from our swimming pool over the years. Poor things. We're not sure how they got in there, but we suspect they might be thirsty and they try to drink. Luckily, we've been able to save them and they wander off to recover in the hedge. I'm not sure the Department of Conservation would approve of our missions, but I like to think they'd understand. Now, here's an idea. What if we arranged for New Zealand hedgehogs to be repatriated to the UK?

It would solve two problems in one. Maybe they've grown too accustomed to the Kiwi life, though, and wouldn't want to leave. I wonder what Professor Dawn Scott, who is our guest on the subject, would say. Claire, I have no idea. I am a bit puzzled, though. So how did hedgehogs, if they're not native to new zealand did they sneak there on a boat well somebody somebody would have brought them in but that's been the case for lots of very strange creatures who've turned up and wreaked havoc in different parts of the world they hide in suitcases or you know they get into crates of exported fruit and veg and all that kind of stuff. Well, the grey squirrel, I reckon they're so obnoxious,

they probably just walk through. I can just see it. Do they go through the green channel? Yeah, they just stop. La-dee-da, la-dee-da, stop me if you want. Stop me if you can. Because the grey squirrels are everywhere. They're absolutely, they're vulgar.

And they're nowhere near as lovely as the red ones. There's something about the grey squirrel. I mean, they are rats with tails, aren't they? They are. I tell you what, Claire, if you've got a moment and you can photograph a very large hedgehog... Yes, please do. We'd really love to see that.

I really would. A gigantic, as she says, hedgehog. Maxine lives in Sydney, and we welcome all of our Antipodean clients. Shall we call you clients of the podcast? Dear Jane and Fee, any chance of starting a contacts page to help people find each other? Well, I mean, we're always looking for spinoffs. And I think Jane and Fee's matchmaking service, there's something in it. Perhaps it could be protected by remaining unmonetized.

Well, no, you're just forgetting it. Could organizers consider having take-a-single-person social gatherings? I agree, no more empty platitudes, but practical actions and support are what's needed. The singleton gets free admission. Maybe the stigma felt around being lonely will slowly dissipate

and everyone can feel better about themselves helping to make others happy. I have forced myself to attend things alone, but it takes some courage going out or going on holidays on my own. I am attempting to inject humour in my suggestions. Perhaps others have better ideas, but it is surely worth our thought. Maybe some cultures have it right and the idea of marriage arrangement is not so bad if there is choice. We all know someone who's lonely being single and our society is very much set up for couples. There must be squillions of us perfectly nice good-hearted single people who don't want to stay single of all ages orientations and

backgrounds. I'm single at 65 but that doesn't stop me wanting to find love. Lonely heart pages online and updating have been completely unsuccessful for me and for so many others. So I echo Olivia's thoughts, that's where it all started and feelings having watched many former single friends find someone. I was divorced in 2002 and have never managed

to find anyone since. Well Maxine, I really hope that you do I think that suggestion is fantastic and that would really work. Just have an evening where everybody, so you can go as a couple if you're lucky enough to be in a couple and you're happy to be in that couple. You can take along someone single.

Don't go if you're in a couple and you're not happy because we've all been at those evenings. And nobody wants a repeat of that. No, they don't. That makes it very complicated. That's called marriage. Yep. So happy, stop it.

So happy couples plus one everyone takes a single friend along and everybody knows that everyone's there and you know what that that's the key isn't it so you're not setting somebody up on a date where you've kind of been slightly covert about it and they don't really know why they're there or whatever just be really open about the fact that everybody's bringing a single mate along who would just like to entertain the thought of meeting someone else. Slightly weird. I've been in the opposite situation where I've been invited to,

let's call it a dinner party. And as soon as I walk in and there is quite a nice bloke who doesn't have a partner who's there. And I've had a hostess on one occasion coming over to me very early on in the evening saying, he's married and she's just away on business uh and she's really nice and so i said don't even think about it well i vaguely was i suppose if i'm honest and say that so it's funny it can occur that way too but that would be the opposite yeah and we don't want to encourage that we don't no we don't what was the food like that night? I can't remember.

That's unlike you. I'd have been a bit disappointed, along with other aspects of the evening, to be honest. So I think, Maxine, you should start something just called Maxine's Mates and see how it goes. Why not? But, you know, there's a little acorn of an idea brewing here, so we'll follow it on.

There definitely is. But if we were to do something, Maxine, we would merch it. merch it so you know let's just be honest okay and in the wholesome prairie quilt that is our podcast we'll move on now to raisins and this is from danny who says having a random thought about raisins the other day um and i thought i'd email you but after listening to monday's podcast i also realized i have other stories to tell you too okay well look let's we'll start with raisins. I was thinking the other day, what is it about Brits and raisins? We literally ignore them all year.

Then we shove them in pies at Christmas, stuff them in buns for Easter, overload a cake with them at a wedding, throw them in with a chicken for a coronation. It's just a bit weird. We spend the rest of the year disappointed if we find a raisin in a biscuit that we've mistaken for a chocolate chip. Now on to flies.

I loved the chat recently about hedgehog aggression, and it reminded me of my PhD, where I spent four years studying fruit fly aggression. I think we know, we know Dani, don't we? Yeah. Yeah, she's a brilliant artist. They have a whole range of fighting actions. The males will fence with each other, then escalate into a lunge, then maybe even a tussle. The females typically stick to head-butting each other. And that actually is what Fi and I do when things get really, really tense on Tetchy Tuesday. That's what we do. And then to finish,

I wanted to get in touch with finding about finding love on apps. Just letting you both know there are other places. I met my boyfriend of five years on the back seat of a bicycle made for two loving the jeopardy of your live radio says danny yes you had a bit of jeopardy today actually it's um it's underrated jeopardy in live broadcasting isn't it mind you it's only is it how many days since i said that somebody should blow to reese coffee don't go back to that and And that was on live radio. Danny, very best to you. Thank you. Can I just say, I don't think we ignore

raisins. Well, I don't. I mean, well, I say that. I'm actually much fonder of sultanas. Yeah, you find them in your bra. But also, I would disagree, and I don't really want to disagree with Danny because I think she's a terrific person, but raisins feature enormously in toddler food, don't they?

You know, those packs, mini packs of raisins. So I find that to be quite a triggering food now. Oh, because the child would clutch the... Is it sun-made? Sun-made, yeah. And because they're so sweet and they're like toffees, and so you think that you can give them to your kids willy-nilly. But can I just say, Danny, they have consequences.

So they may keep your child entertained on the bus as you're travelling to an educational activity, but a couple of hours later, they're not so great. And I wouldn't advise them being in toddler food quite so much. As a much better parent, I always favoured the carrot baton and the rice cake. Did you now? Yes. My youngsters, they've grown rice cake. Did you now? Yes. My youngsters, they've grown very tall.

One's five foot four. It did them no harm. It's weird actually, my kids overtook me in height. One of them, before they left primary school, they now tower above me. And it does change the, it changes the dynamic. It changes the dynamic, yes.

Well, to be fair, the five'4 inch one does tower over me. But I rather like it because it enables me to slightly play a different role, which is one of the person who needs caring. I was going to say, soon they'll be taking you out in a buggy and you'll be clutching some sun-made raisins. No, I would not be going there in my dotage at all because, as previously mentioned, I understand the consequences of them, Jane. Now, we had a man on the programme today, didn't we?

And we were very interested to know what Richard Reeves thought about lots of things. He's written a book of boys and men, which is trying to look at the underbelly of reality for lots of men, which is just pretty uncomfortable. It's pretty poor mental health. It's not thriving in school. There is certainly a problem with male aggression. And his book is very thoughtful because it takes lots of data and statistics to prove his point. But then he does try and offer some solutions. And one of the things that I really like that he says is that women have done very well in the developed world to move into a more breadwinner role in society but men haven't and it's just a fact managed to move into a more

caregiving role in order for the balance to be retained and it's one of many areas of friction in society. But I mean I wonder whether in some cases it is the women because they said women might have a tendency to do that kind of domestic gatekeeping and slightly

keeping men away, sometimes from childcare and sometimes just from household tasks and then the sort of martyrish thing might enter the equation as well so keeping men away, sometimes from childcare and sometimes just from household tasks. And then the sort of martyrish thing might enter the equation as well. So there's quite a lot to get at here, isn't there? Yeah, and what he's trying to work out is where choice comes into all of that. So, you know, if it's a choice that you've made to delineate your roles in, you know, possibly quite an old-fashioned way,

then that's absolutely fine, as long as everybody's happy. But clearly, there are lots of men who aren't very happy and lacking the essential kind of provider role might lie at the heart of that. There were loads and loads of things to talk about. But Richard was late. So we had to cram in half an hour's conversation to 13 minutes. And I think he did very well can I just apologize as well because I was really looking forward to interviewing him and I got this question formed in my mind that was based around a text that we'd had in which was quite aggressive actually from one of our listeners just saying um you know it's the chattering classes and why can't you just

celebrate the role of men in society and all that kind of stuff and I wanted to turn it into a very clever question that allowed Richard to talk back to our listener directly and I just made a hash of it Jane and so I'd just like to apologise in advance. Will you be thinking about that at five in the morning? I will actually. Will you? Yes it annoys me when I because that's what we're here for isn it? Is to ask questions of clarity and get the best from our interviewees. No one's ever said that to me. So I apologise in advance. And then Jane very kindly asked the question again better afterwards. So we cut there in the end.

But that's my caveat. OK, well, get your apology in early. Yep. I'll just tell you a little bit more about him. He's a former think tanker. He used to work for Demos here in the UK. He was an advisor to Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats. He's now a writer and an academic based in the States. He's dad to three boys. We asked him how old his boys are and if they were part

of the motivation to write this book. They're all in their 20s now. So 26, 22 and 21. And I wouldn't say they're the motivation, but they are one of the reasons why I was looking at the world sort of through their eyes. And so it's just a kind of dinner. It's a conversation we'd be having like at home about what is what is it like growing up today? What is it like being a young man today? And they're not they're not from the demographic group that I would most worry about. They're obviously from a relatively advantaged and affluent background. And so those are actually not the boys and men who are struggling the most but nonetheless I think having that experience now slightly affected my work I have this theory that all scholarship is at least partly autobiographical and it's just a question of whether you admit it or not so I

think it was it was important for me to just say up front that to some extent this is influenced by conversations that I was having with them around around the dinner table as well as the papers I was reading over at Brookings where I have my day job. And can we establish some of the facts about where men are struggling the most in societies just so we can really peg out what it is we're talking about? Yeah I, I think the sort of four main areas where we can see our education. So in every advanced economy, boys are behind girls and men are behind women in higher education. And so in universities now, there's a bigger gender gap in universities today than there was a few decades ago. It's just the other way around. And that's true in the US. It's true in the UK. other way around. And that's true in the US, it's true in the UK. I think it's pretty well known now by policymakers that there's a significant gender gap in education at all levels now. So it's taken

a while to sort of filter all the way through, but there's a big gap there. In the labour force, it's a slightly more complicated picture because, of course, we've seen this huge rise of women economically in terms of earnings, but there are still some gaps, especially at the top of the labour market. But we've seen a decline in male labour force participation, especially for less educated men. And working class men in particular have been hit hard by deindustrialisation, free trade, etc., to the extent that their earnings have barely moved at the median, at the bottom of society over the last few decades. And then in family life, just because we've changed family life so much that there's a new way of being a dad now, which doesn't, which isn't based on the old breadwinner married

model. And that does mean that there are quite a few fathers now who are struggling to be in their kids' lives. And so there has been a rise in disconnection, if you like, between fathers and kids. And I think the suicide statistic you referred to earlier and some of those mental health problems, to some extent, you know, they're a reflection of lots of different factors. But the fact that suicide, as you alluded to, is actually the biggest killer of British men under the age of 45, I think it's just to some

extent the result of some of these different changes. So there are some mental health issues wrapped in there too. So those are the areas, I think, where we can see the starkest and clearest signs of male struggle. So why do we still believe and I mean, I think it's backed up by fact as well, that women are having a very hard time and haven't achieved equality? Well, because two thoughts can be true at once. And so there can be various domains and ways in which boys and men are now struggling, including, for example, in school and some aspects of family life. And then many areas where girls and women are struggling. So we still have a gender pay gap, for example.

And that's largely the result, actually, of this very different gender division of labour around raising kids. And so women are still disproportionately hurt by a labor market an employment system that quite heavily penalizes parents and particularly as parents who take some time out the labor market or work part-time and that disproportionately affects moms and so there's a big issue there and then still at the top of society we have an under-representation of women still in many areas of life especially in in boardrooms, of course, although there has been significant progress. We're now 40% of them. This is new data, but 40% of board directors now are female, which is a significant increase,

but not 50. And a third of members of parliament now are female. And again, that's a significant increase on the 5% that it was. And Margaret Thatcher became prime minister, but it's not 50%. So there's been huge progress, but there's still some areas where we do need to do more for women and girls and there are some professions i should add like technology and engineering where we need to do more but there's a whole bunch of areas now where we also need to do more for boys and men so i think really it's just a test of our ability to to sit as i said to think two thoughts at once you know here there's a bigger bigger

problem for girls and women here there's a bigger problem for boys and men and we shouldn't have to choose between those two no but but do you get the feeling and obviously you've had reaction to this book uh and some of the feedback i would i would imagine is good some of it some of it maybe not so good um that because people don't seem to want to talk about what you're talking about they don't want to talk about the weakness in men the only response that we've had to you coming on the programme has actually been quite a kind of fists up. You know, there's nothing wrong. Men are, you know, men are still positive elements of society and you're doing them down. of course which is that by pointing out the difficulties that men and men are having that that's sort of doing them down which is different from saying they don't have any problems what are you talking about you know men don't have problems you know so it's two different problems two different criticisms one is what are you talking about men you know men are absolutely

fine and it's still women who have all the problems and the other is why are you drawing attention to these things and saying there's something wrong with men? And both of those, I think, are unfair criticisms, because, as we just said, there can be problems for boys and men, even as there are many remaining for girls and women. But I don't think that pointing out that there are some real difficulties for a particular group is to do that group down. I think it's to point us to those problems in the hope that we will find solutions. I think if we find areas where, for example, like if girls, adolescent girls are really struggling with, you know, a lot of mental health problems, which they are, I don't think that's doing them down and saying there's something wrong with them because they're

depressed or sad or being bullied or, you know, engaged in self-harm. I think we should say, hold on, what's happening there? Is that social media? Is that education? Is it something about society that's affecting our young women that way? And so I completely reject the idea that pointing to problems in a group is to somehow, you know, do that group down. We wouldn't think that about any other group, I don't think. Well, I mean, what Fi's saying, actually, Richard,

is that's the reaction we've had from male listeners, is that they're cross, that they're being thought of as failing. And you're actually pointing out quite legitimately that you want to make this better. So can we start in the limited amount of time still available to talk about some of your solutions? And you actually suggest that boys should start school later than girls. Now, why is that? Because boys' brains develop more slowly than girls, on average. Again, these are obviously average differences, but particularly when it comes to adolescence, girls' brains develop a little bit earlier, partly because they hit puberty earlier,

and that triggers the development of certain parts of our brain, especially what's called the prefrontal cortex, which is the bit of your brain that gets you to get your homework done. It's about self-organisation, non-cognitive skills is the term that's used for that. And on average, girls are about a year ahead, between a year and two years ahead in secondary school. And so the idea is that if we could just actually, if by default we started boys a year later, it wouldn't be true for all boys, of course, or indeed all girls, that would actually level the playing field developmentally.

Girls are developmentally ahead of boys in school, and that's not exactly a shocking or controversial finding. But then we're seeing it play out in how girls are doing in A-level, whether they're going on to university and so on. So the idea there is to just recognise that boys develop at a slower pace than girls. It's not that they're worse or that there's anything wrong with them to all the men who've been complaining about that. That's just a neuroscientific fact. And so perhaps we should reflect that in our education policy. We have got so much to try and pack into the next five minutes, but we will try and race through it. Richard, you do say in the book for most women, having a child is the economic equivalent of being hit by a meteorite. For most men, it barely makes a dent. The question arises

as to whether these different roles are freely chosen or not. What do you conclude? to whether these different roles are freely chosen or not. What do you conclude? Yeah, so the main point there is that the gender pay gap is largely now a parenting pay gap. It's largely the result of this difference between men and women in how far they're taking time out or working part-time and so on. And I think that when it's very young children, I'm reasonably convinced now that for most women, although not all, that is

largely something that they would like the option to do, is to have the choice at least to be able to choose between staying in the labour market full-time or going part-time or working flexibly or taking some time out. But I think the mistake is to think that that's then a kind of permanent decision. I'm actually reasonably convinced by the evidence that dads are pretty good with slightly older kids. And so I think over the course of raising children, what we'd want to do is see more symmetry. But we have a tendency to just think of the early years are the only ones that count. And so we point to the fact that mums are typically the ones who are, I think, largely choosing to do more of the child kind of early years and say, oh, there you go. See, mums want

to stay home with their kids for the next 20 years. It takes at least 20 years to raise a kid. And so I think what happens is that we fall between these kind of two false stories. One is there's no difference between men and women in their preferences around being at home with a six-month-old, say, and then saying, oh, yes, and that's why you end up with this division of labour that lasts for decades. So we're not doing a very good job, I think, of being more flexible in the kind of parenting we can do.

And do you feel as a man and as a parent yourself, frustrated by how few role models there are available doing exactly that type of thing? Yeah, and I think in some ways, it's gotten worse. I mean, as you mentioned earlier, I served in the coalition government, and I was actually really quite proud of the fact that David Cameron took paternity leave, right, you know, very early in the term of the government. And I feel there was a moment not so long ago, where actually we were really pushing hard to have, you know, more men in positions of authority, modeling what I would describe as a kind of, you know, a more appropriate form of masculinity and parenting. But I feel that we've slipped backwards in recent years.

We've slipped back to slightly more boorish adolescent forms of male role model online and in politics. And so I fear that in some ways, in terms of how masculinity is being laurelled, we've actually gone back in the last 10 years. So I am disappointed. I think that I'd like to get back to a world where if you think about Barack Obama and David Cameron, regardless of what you think of either Obama and David Cameron, regardless of what you think of either of their politics, I think we could agree that there were probably better male role models than either Donald Trump or Boris Johnson. And so I think in some ways, we have been a bit of a slippage because of some of the problems in our politics. People have reached for what I'd describe as really quite an adolescent form of masculinity, kind of

almost like a play acting form. And then of course, you see online hateful figures like Andrew Tate. And what would you say to Andrew Tate if you had him in a room for half an hour? That would be great. I would love that conversation. I think what I would say is how far do you actually believe this misogynist stuff, Andrew, and how far are you just mastering the algorithm of outrage in order to drive clicks and make, I think, conservatively was making like 20 million dollars a month for a while because he mastered the algorithm of hate and response and short form and transgression and outrage. Do you actually believe this stuff or are you, are you, as you now claim, performing it? performing it and how hard have you thought about the fact that actually if you're a 13 year old boy desperate for some kind of guidance on how to be male who stumbles across your videos so that could

have a really corrosive effect on his view of himself like have you thought hard about your social responsibility andrew i don't know what answer i would get but that would be my kind of concern about someone have you thought about the downstream effects or are you just trying to rake in as much money as humanly possible from the algorithm of short-form video? So we ended there with Richard Reeve's thoughts on Andrew Tate. If you had half an hour in a room with Andrew Tate, what would you say to him? I'm not sure I could really do better than Richard Reeve's answer about what do you really believe? And I suppose in my ideal world, we'd never speak the man's name again

or ever hear from him again. Unfortunately, I suspect there's a whole new brand of victimhood developing around Andrew Tate, depending on what happens to him in the Romanian legal system. It's going to be very interesting, isn't it? Well, he was so clever because he predicted his fate because he knew what was coming.

He said the matrix would come for him. So he already made the justice system the enemy before it caught up with him, which means whatever the justice system in Romania decides to do with him, he can play the part of the injured party. So we may well be seeing him for quite a long time, but we'll let that court case ride out. My worry as well is that we're not talking enough about who fills his shoes, because a space as big as that created by Andrew Tate will be filled by somebody. It's not just

all going to stop if him and his brother are convicted of the crimes they're accused of. I shouldn't laugh, but the fact that his brother's called Tristan just always... Why does that make you laugh? Would it be better if it was Terry? I do find Tristan a little hard to handle.

Right, OK. Thoughts on nominative determinism. I think that's what it's called, isn't it? Please send them somewhere else. I don't want to see those. We don't actually want your thoughts on nominative determinism. We'd rather hear from you on the subject of raisins, to be honest. Raisins, lactation and how to make single people happy.

And giant hedgehogs. Jane and Fi at Times.Radio. Luckily for you, we're back at the same time tomorrow. Yes, but the guest is Sally Wainwright. So actually, that is lucky, isn't it? Yeah, that is lucky. Don't undersell it. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live. Then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.