Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Releasing wind and letting the women do the work (with Julia Samuel)

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

Off Air has hit 10 million downloads! Hooray! So, we celebrated with a very special cake (you can see that on our Instagram @janeandfi).Once all that excitement died down, Jane and Fi got back to business and discussed thrush, wearing glasses to look clever and school uniforms.Plus, they're joined by leading psychotherapist Julia Samuel MBE to solve some of your Christmas dilemmas.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]'re up for an award! You can vote for us here, if you'd like: https://podbiblemag.com/pod-bible-listener-polls-2023-vote-now/Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's that time of year when the news monster is creeping back into its cave. Because this is one of the headlines on the Times website as we speak.

One pint, Willie. Mike Tindall reveals his nickname for the Prince of Wales. It's a cracking story, this, isn't it? It is. So I think that Mike Tindall, he's just the royal adjacent gift that keeps on giving, isn't he? He is. Because he doesn't seem to be as tongue-tied about royal life as the royals are. Far from tongue-tied.

So he's been on Rob Burrow's podcast, hasn't he? Which is, I think, called Seven. And he was asked what nicknames he had for the Royals. And he said, coming from a sport where it's built on the social aspect and a couple of beers being sunk quite often,

this is the one that I will give away for the Prince of Wales. He's not the best of drinkers he's known as One Pint Willie what can we say? I don't know what to make of that does that mean that after a couple of pints he becomes quite insensible

because he comes from a family of legendary boozers strong stuff well I mean come on the Gin and Dubonnet Brigade are not that far away from him, DNA-wise. So clearly he's not inherited any of that. No. What a shame. No.

Because we all love getting absolutely blood and disgracing us. This is all about being responsible. Especially at this time of year. Don't make a joke. At all times. I'm not. No, I'm absolutely not. There is an article in The Guardian today, which is called, it's headlined,

A Woman's Work Is Never Done, Especially at Christmas. This one is by Chloe Hamilton. There's a version of this in every newspaper at this time of year. And I don't blame them for it. And I've written very similar stuff myself. But Chloe is basically just saying, it's all on us. She's sick of the workload. Why do women have to do so much?

But not every woman does. They just don't. I think you just, I think you keep the myth going. You perpetuate it, I know. But I kind of, I have sympathy with her. She says, my personal gripe is giving presents. I remember quite fondly one Christmas Eve, coming home from the pub together,

to find my gift from my partner sitting unwrapped on our kitchen table. That much I can tolerate. My issue is with presents for others. I remember much less fondly the Christmas when, despite my repeated reminders, he used wrapping paper and sellotape borrowed from his mother to wrap our young nephew's presents, brought by, bought by me on Boxing Day morning,

mere minutes before the boys opened them. Now I can understand why that drove her mad. That is infuriating. But it makes me a little bit uncomfortable to just keep banging the Marta Mary mistletoe thing. Well, you'll find a version of that article in our book. Yeah. And indeed in all good and bad newspapers.

But my point in the book was that you have a choice about Christmas so you can get such an amazing Christmas dinner now ready-made for you that you just have to put in a microwave if you don't want to slave over a hot stove. And if there's just one person who's happy to see you at Christmas, then you've won. You don't have to turn it into this extraordinary high bar if you don't want to. And do you know what? We've got Julia Samuel in the podcast today

answering all of your Christmas dilemmas. I thought she was really, really full of good stuff. And she continually makes the point about it just being within your power to change a tiny bit of Christmas if you're very very unhappy with Christmas and she's right because it's horrible if you've got this feeling of powerlessness that it comes towards you every year it's always going to make you really unhappy you're allowed to find something that works for you that just changes the narrative a bit Jane and the own the only

bit of advice i've always clung to is that bit that i've repeated before but i'll say it again it's not about how other people make you feel but how you might make other people feel yeah and and also oh my gosh wonderful we've had a cake made for us isn't that gorgeous i thought you were quiet during the program. You've been doing that. Fabulous. I painted it by hand. That's amazing. That's actually quite nice.

Look at that on us. Have you achieved this? It was Henry went to Asda. Henry went to Asda. Well, that's slightly taken away a bit of the magic. That's next year's sponsor, isn't it? Well done, Asda. Thank you, Kate.

Oh, my gosh. You know, we don't want to ruin that. Oh, no, no. You cut into it. This is a cake to commemorate what does it say Fee it says 10 million

off air with Jane and Fee 10 million downloads look at that so that's incredible isn't it that actually is incredible it is and thank you

thank you because obviously that's you doing it not us well I mean I've done some click baiting on a click farm

have you no I haven't I've left it all to you anyway a click farm. Have you? No, I haven't. I've left it all to you. Anyway, we are really, really grateful. Thank you for being a part of, as we always say, whatever this is. We are very, very grateful for your interest, for your emails, and just for the laughs. Just for the laughs.

Yeah, absolutely. Right, where are you going to place the knife? I feel this is a bit, you know when people came along after you'd had a baby and so you kind of look up and it's just like, oh, these people taking pictures. It's like, go away. It's ours. It's our cake.

It's ours, it's not yours. No, it's a very nice gesture. We'd like to thank everyone at Times Towers for making this occasion so wonderful. Plunge your knife in. Right, I'm not going to do it anywhere insensitive. Well, that's my bosom. God, sorry, I really didn't mean that.

So the ambush by cake is now over. That happened during COVID, didn't it? Yeah, I did wonder why the camera was on in here. I just assumed it was for people from talk sport. We don't really know what goes on sometimes in here. Because when we were sitting in that studio, the one with the glass, and we can see into this studio, the other day I was doing an interview

well i think you were there too and a man from trails he just got out his flute right uh okay so thank you to everybody who chipped in for the asda cake we're extraordinarily grateful i don't believe that's master because it's because Asda because it's got our faces on the front. I don't know if they're saying that in Asda. I want a cut. We need to get a cut of it, don't we? Briefly, back to Christmas, I would say that I'm

completely with you on buy whatever you like that's ready made. I think these articles, like the one Chloe's written, are just about the expectations that women put upon themselves relative to the expectations that women put upon themselves relative to the ones that men put upon themselves. So I was talking to one of my window cleaners today, I have a whole team of them, and Dave, the window cleaner,

I said, are you ready for Christmas? He said, oh, the missus does all of it for me. And I thought, well, how wonderful to be you, Dave. But it isn't true. It isn't true of so many of us. So I've just got an email here from a listener who actually emailed with reference to Julia Samuel, who's our guest today, the psychotherapist. And anonymous here just details what she's up against at the moment. Her dad's in hospital, so she's got a round trip of 140 miles as well to visit her older child at uni before they take some exams. Then she had to sit through a two and a half hour Christmas concert watching a younger child perform in the school samba band. Then she had to go to

the post office. Then she had to return some parcels. Then she bought a sandwich to take to her dad in hospital. Then she wrote and delivered Christmas cards. Then she bought some gifts for members of her family. Then she bought wrapping paper. She bought wrapping paper, sellotape. She wrapped something. She went to see her dad in hospital. She made a tray bake for Christmas lunch at work. She booked and ordered all Christmas food online. She picked up another child from the station. She phoned the GP for her mum.

She helped a younger child with an essay. She remembered food donations for work. She's wearing a Christmas jumper to work. And she got cash for Christmas cards for a niece and nephew. And then she went on to the hospital to see her dad. I don't think she's alone. No, I'm sure she's not alone, but I just think that there are decent men who are doing stuff now

and maybe we just have to give them credit and not assume, just not assume, that every male is just being indolent. I don't think it's everyone at all. Putting their feet up, letting the women do all of the work and then just releasing wind afterwards in celebration. Here comes Kath, who's 53. I chuckled at your conversation about whether we lose weight after a loo visit

when I have had to have a mastectomy. When I had to have a mastectomy, I'm sorry, Kath. The reaction of my kids was the gallow humours I needed. I'm thankfully two years all clear, so very lucky and don't want to minimise what others go through. However, they decided to bet how much my generous but gravity-challenged boob would weigh. Oh, Kath, I was not flattered by my son, then 10,

who estimated 32 kilos. So I weighed myself before and after. Absolutely no change. Couldn't believe it. From a 32F to a lopsided shape and not an ounce different. The prosthetic is very heavy. Made a two pounds difference at Slimming World Weigh In. But nowhere near my son's estimate.

I hope this is a useful extra piece of data. Good luck with your journalistic investigation. Well, Kath, by Jiminy it is. So you lost your original bosom and how amazing, Kath, to have been through all of that and to be funny and humorous about it at the end of it. I really hope you're okay. But you didn't lose any weight when they took your bosom off, but you have gained the weight when they've put the prosthetic, when you were the prosthetic. That just, that is contributing to the journalistic investigation. There's something very odd going on here, Jane.

Oh, just talking of it, have you got the email about Thrush? Yes, I've got several emails about Thrush. I can't find my copy of that, so if you could just mention that. It's very quick, but hilarious. Well, hang on a sec, because we can get to it, because it has got the fantastic title of, what was it? Genital Sparrows.

Hello Joan and Fee from Lynn. I thought you'd like to know that thrush is so called because the white flecks seen particularly in oral thrush were thought to resemble the breast plumage of the bird. Happy Christmas. There we are. And very happy Christmas to you. There's something there for twitchers

and for people with a minor, and it is relatively minor thrush, isn't it, complained? Well, I mean, you can sort it, but do you know what? I think it's incredibly essential before all of the shops shut for Christmas to get a couple of pieces of pharmaceuticals in for the cabinet.

Something to help with thrush, something to help with cystitis. Oh, God, yes. Always have that. Don't get that over Christmas, kids. And just quite a lot of headache tablets. Vigil Season 2 is exercising Steph, who says, Sharan Jones using her glasses in Episode 1.

No one uses glasses like that. Stop putting them on to look clever! But, you see, that's one of the reasons I didn't want my long sight lasered away because I thought I know it's an option but I kind of want to keep wearing specs because I've got the view that

they do make me look a bit cleverer well they do but she was just really there was some unhelpful continuity wasn't there because she wasn't putting her glasses on all the time she could read a screen perfectly fine sometimes. Yeah, it would seem so. Just an aesthetic thing.

Shiran, you might be a listener. Let us know what's going on. Steph's been a nurse for 30 years. She says, I've had my fair share of wrong tablet, wrong route. The worst was when we gave a patient a suppository for his pain and he called me the next day to say it hadn't worked at all and actually, if anything, it had made things worse, I rushed round to find out that he'd administered it

with the foil wrapper still intact. I'm going to do that sound again. I found it hilarious, Steph. I don't think he did. But anyway, I suppose unless you're absolutely explicit about these things, people aren't going to know, are they? Necessarily, but there must be instructions. But you would hope that you'd take the wrapper off.

Just on the whole, I definitely would. Hello, Jane and Fee, says Henrietta. I was also inspired by the wonderful Miriam Margulies and looked up the sewage work she talked about, as also mentioned by another listener yesterday. It does indeed look beautiful and reminded me of a book on my shelf I've been meaning to read for years called The Great Stink by Claire Clark. It's a fictional tale, but set during Bazalgette's transformation,

it describes dark happenings going on in those Victorian sewers, maybe one for the next Jane and Fee book club perhaps. And then Henrietta goes on to say Fee shouldn't feel demoted for reading an extract from the Polar Express. It is originally a book by Chris Van Allsburg, who also authored Jumanji, amongst other books. The thing is, I hadn't felt demoted, Henrietta, until Jane demoted me. And I would just like to say I bumped into some people around the News UK building who really enjoyed the Polar Express reading at the Carol concert because it was one of the only ones that wasn't the Bible reading so let's hope in 2024 maybe a

little less shade comes over this way. I hope to be invited back to the service and actually attend it next year. No I don't think you'll be doing either. Debs has got a question for you. Can you let me know where I can find these questions that Miriam has compiled? One or two of which you asked her. Sorry, I've read that out very badly, Debs. I do apologise. But you mentioned these questions that were in the book.

Yes. So they're in Chapter 2 of the book O Miriam, and there are 25 questions. Some of them are hilarious. About half of them we couldn't read out on radio, but they are very funny and they would certainly be conversation starters. Or stoppers. Not necessarily with the entire family over what we call the festive period. No. See how things are going before you drop in on those. No. See how things are going before you drop in on those. Some of them are really like, oh, my God. But they are very funny.

And I liked her second book more than her first book, actually. So if you have a choice between buying them, then I'll go for the second. Yeah, there are plenty of them. I've seen them. They're towering great lumps of Miriam all over the bookshops around London. Oh, actually, that reminds me. A listener says, if you would, please, just give my name as Devon Girl. I've just done that.

You city girls, she says, do make me chuckle. Oh, I know. I'm such a city slicker. Oh, we both are. Thank you for noticing that. Let the rivers run. I'm just thinking of that now. Oh, I love that song. It's Working Girl, isn't it?

Yes, Carly Simon. You make me chuckle with your metros and your Ubers and your Costas and your Pretts. A question from Devon Girl is, and it's interesting this,

does no one take sandwiches to work anymore? Well, most of our team do, don't they? Well, not sandwiches. No, but they bring in little boxes of healthy things. Yeah, but the question was very specific. Sandwiches.

Well, sometimes Rosie, our producer, brings the sandwiches. Do you know what I look on with envy when Rosie brings in a sandwich? Yes, but she's with a chef, isn't she? So she has all kinds of top quality sandwiches. She does, yeah. I don't think people on the whole, contributor in Devon, do bring in sandwiches anymore. But you might get a little bit of cold pasta in a tub brought in.

What I really hate, Jane... Stray samosa or two? ...is the fact that everybody eats at their desks. That's disgusting. No, I don't think it's good for the soul. And sometimes when I go off to get my little sandwich in the canteen, Matt Chorley's team are always having a little bit of a lunch together. And they sit down.

Well, our hours don't really allow for that, do they? They don't. No, but in fact, my last job where I actually had a lunch break, a really official one hour off, was back when I worked in the NHS in the 1980s. And you had a proper, strict hour off where you could just sit somewhere and have your lunch. They were always very good about

it in local radio so remember that yeah so when i was a little trainee reporter uh the the editors were always very yeah they were always very keen that you went out for an hour i mean probably so they could just bitch about me trainee from london from London. But I remember it very fondly, actually, and I think it just really helped the day pass because you could go and do a little bit of shopping. I used to get the same pork and stuffing in a white bap in Hull every day for three months. Gosh.

It was very good. Have you been back to Hull? No. I'm not allowed. I'm not allowed over the bridge. Banned from the city limits. Maria has a practical question and I'm not allowed. Banned from the city limits. Maria has a practical question and I can answer it. Was it fabric conditioner or hair conditioner that you used to refresh shrunken jumpers?

It was hair conditioner, Maria. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. Any very good or even adequate hair conditioner should do the job. If that's something that's vexing you at the moment. Jane asks, in the absence of a formal collective noun, how about a jolly of Janes? I grew up in 1970s East Anglia and I can remember lots of Janes I was at school with. However, at university in the north

and the following 25 plus years in London, I didn't come across many others, either personally or professionally. Present Company and Horrocks, Seymour and Macdonald accepted. However, I've just started a new job in the south-west of England and in three months I've come across five Janes. What is going on? I don't know.

Five Janes. Here comes a Jane Wall. I saw this in my local high street this morning. It filled me with anger, despair, dismay and disappointment. Who can possibly claim that a store and branding such as this is not appealing to young people? And the store name is

Kingdom of American Waffles and Vapes. Let's leave it at that. Thank you for sending that in. So we've been talking quite a lot about vapes on the programme. And if I was going to dedicate my third age to something, it would be vapes and teenagers closely followed by school uniform, which I think just needs to change. Well, I agree with you on school uniform.

I would get rid of all of them and just make every pupil wear tracksuit bottoms and a hoodie. Which is what they want to wear at the moment. It would be much cheaper. It would stop this really, really unpleasant girls' school uniform fetishisation. Yeah, just kill it off. Which is definitely there and is just a

terrible, terrible part of their lives. And also, I don't understand why most schools ask their kids, do you have either black or blue coats in the winter? They should all be wearing something high-vis. It's madness. So will you join me in my campaigns? I think that's actually very...

Oh, it's just daft. Yeah. You know, we have daylight saving, and the numbers of kids hurt on the roads goes up that week and they're all told that they have to wear black why? What's going on there? It's bonkers Totally bonkers

Sorry I've just caught sight of our Asda cake again I thought I might have another go at that Shall we move on? Do you want to do a final email? This is actually an interesting one from Christopher and he's alerted me to something I'm glad I now know about. I've just watched Maiden, he says on Netflix. It's about Tracy Edwards

and her yacht maiden which took part in the Whitbread Round the World yacht race with the first all-women crew. If you haven't seen it, it's well worth a look. I'm a man with a formidable wife, two amazing daughters and two fantastic granddaughters and it had me in tears at the end. I almost feel it should be compulsory watching

for all girls of an impressionable age to show them anything is possible no matter how many men say it isn't. A better feel-good film than It's a Beautiful Life and It's a Wonderful Life, isn't it, that film? Yeah. I hated that. I only saw it once. I couldn't understand it. It was awful.

And a true story, says Christopher. Christopher, thank you. I'll make a point of watching that. Actually, we'll take some suggestions overnight for TV viewing over Christmas. It doesn't have to be stuff that's just been plonked on the streaming services. Stuff like that from way back a bit would be incredibly helpful.

And I'm going to dig out an email that came in recommending a documentary, I think set in a Swedish sauna. And I do want to get the name of that right. No, it sounded great. Is that one for all the family? It sounded niche, but I don't think it is. Oh, okay. Yeah, right. Do you want to go into Julia Samuel? Well, yes, Julia Samuel joined us today. She is a specialist in grief. Many of you will have heard her name. She is also a psychotherapist. And she joined us really just to talk through not your Christmas conundrums, but just some of the issues that come up at this time of year.

So many of us are dealing with expectations of one sort or another, tricky family situations. Perhaps you've been through a bereavement. And we started off by reading an email from a listener. And by the way, thank you all who bothered to email us on this. Julia, hello. Good afternoon. This is one anonymous email we've had from someone who says, we aren't religious, we don't have a big family. And although we have a reasonable social life, I feel I should be offering my family a picture perfect, fun filled, jam packed Christmas week of highenergy entertainment. I do know this

is ridiculous. They're quite happy to catch up on sleep, eat Quality Street, play the odd game, watch TV and chat. I know we're lucky to have each other, a warm house and food in the fridge. The problem is more mine. I have this inner feeling that my experience is inferior to others, that I'm directionless and less purposeful. I try not to compare myself by looking at social media posts. We all know they are carefully curated. This year coincides with me having resigned from a stressful full-time job and to look for new projects and work that allows me to have a better work-life balance.

How do I make sure I enjoy the precious moments of having all my kids at home, which rarely happens as they're scattered globally, and I just don't want to feel inadequate? Right, that email is interesting because I think a lot of people feel the same way, that we look at Instagram and everyone's doing fabulously stylish

and wonderful tear-jerking things, and maybe we are just sprawled on the sofa in our loose-fitting clothing watching something on the telly but we shouldn't feel inadequate Julia. Absolutely not. I mean she's got a lot of psychological insight doesn't she? She sort of recognises that what she's got is really good and she also recognises that by going kind of internally to herself, below the waterline, apart from what she sees, but comparing herself to others is a direct route to misery and that she can never, once you start comparing yourself to others,

you will always fail. So I guess it's about kind of letting herself know what she already knows and recognising that to lean in to the good enough Christmas that is imperfect, that may have a dry turkey, that may have a fight, that you're going to lie on the sofa eating Quality Street, which sounds pretty perfect to me, I must say. And I think some of it is the ending of her job is a loss for her.

And she's doing it for all the good reasons. So to be aware in the back of her mind, not to try and get control over Christmas because she doesn't have control over her next job, because we can sometimes project other aspects of ourselves into Christmas Day and maybe as a family talk together and say what are three things we really want this Christmas that are kind of manageable reachable things and decide together what they are and prioritise them and then let the rest go. Julia can I ask you quite a specific one? Thank you very much indeed for all of that one, by the way. This one comes in and I think it's probably better to go anonymous. Here goes, says our correspondent.

I turned 40 this year. I live abroad, have a good job and I'm generally happy in life. But one thing I haven't done is find a partner or have a family of my own. And most of the year this isn't problematic as life is busy and full and I'm very fortunate in so many ways but I have been finding Christmas harder and harder in recent years and this is particularly because when our correspondent goes back home what was once a bustling Christmas dinner table with dad cooking for about 20 of us is reduced to just three, mum, dad and their 40-year-old single daughter. It can feel so lonely

and alienating and I never want to admit it to my parents for fear of upsetting them, but it feels like the ultimate symbol of failure in life. What advice would Julia give to those of us in this situation who feel only loss at this time of year when we think of past Christmases and the ones we'll probably never have? I mean that is a very real experience isn't it that it is it's a it's a grief really it's a living loss because it isn't maybe the future that she expected she she didn't choose not to have children and also when we go back home our brain has a particular part of our memory that gets ignited by sight sound touch and smell so all the previous Christmases literally the ghosts of Christmas past are a real thing. And so we're kind of

haunted by the numbers, by the liveliness and the sort of vitality of Christmas. And then you're sitting with two kind of aging, probably have very few Christmases left. And all you're aware of is loss and grief. So the thing I would kind of suggest for her is to allow both that she is grieving. This is a legitimate loss and allow herself to feel and experience and express the pain, maybe journal it, maybe write it down, but also have moments of connection with her mom and dad that are meaningful so that she can build a store of memories for the future of being with them and having the time to be with them without being kind of interrupted by lots of other people. And also maybe as a family, do a project together, like have a family puzzle, because I think often we feel quite empty and puzzles are broken. But by making the puzzle together, you don't have to talk. There's no pressure on you and you build something that's broken

and you make it whole. And I think psychologically that can be very helpful. Yeah, what a lovely suggestion. That's a good idea. Could I also ask for your thoughts just about stepping away from tradition? We are so tied to traditions at Christmas, aren't we? And I think actually that correspondence email is very telling about how painful it can be to keep going back to a familiarity. Do you think we could be bolder

about stepping away from tradition and just breaking that kind of cycle? I really do. I think loss and doing something different is an opportunity. So to create your own rituals. I mean, rituals are habits with soul. So maybe for her, what she'll do is go outside more, go on a bicycle ride on her own, go for a walk somewhere, do have a sort of mini adventure that is hers, that feels kind of enlivening and expanding that is different so that you have some of the old memories because I think with their inner so that you know we need to acknowledge and allow them but creating new ones can feel means that we have agency and influence on our present which helps support us to manage the losses from the past. Can I just mention this one, Julia, from a listener who says, my cup does not overflow with excitement for Christmas this year.

My dad has been getting progressively more unwell, excuse me, and may well need to have full-time care quite soon. My mum is exhausted from looking after him and basically fed up to the back teeth with his demands. No emotion is allowed in my family and I often feel like the only one who finds the whole situation quite devastating. But God forbid a tear is shed. How do I get through this emotionally stifling Christmas while staying true to myself? Oh, and by the way, throw in cooking for everybody,

a monosyllabic brother, two teenage boys, and a very loving and protective wife. Any advice appreciated at all, says our listener. That is tough, particularly when the situation is very, very sad, but you're not allowed to acknowledge it from the sound of things. Yes. I mean, I think acknowledging it to herself and to her loving partner is really helpful. And maybe, you know, with the teenagers, maybe they can have a kind of game where they score points, five points, every time there's a kind of fake denial of what is really going on. They can internally give themselves five points.

Right. And then the person who gets the most points can have a box of Quality Street or you can all go to the movies together. So I think you have to bring in dark humour in those very bleak situations. I'm really glad you said that. Is it OK to use rather dark humour then, if it gets you through?

I think it's vital right you know her parents you know to legitimize their experience they don't know emotional intelligence they don't know how to be different they only know how to kind of have a stiff upper lip and keep going and they're not up for change so she can't change them but she can it's a he actually isn't it he can actually it's a woman it's a woman i should say it's a woman yeah sorry adapt her attitude so that you can feel she can feel seven when she's home but she can allow the seven-year-old kind of see that she's there because she's reverted back to being a child but also bring her adult self in who can be a bit more playful, a bit more teasing, and not kind of straight jacketed by the stiffness of her parents. And I think one of the ways of doing that is that our imagination, when we prepare ourselves an imagination of a version of ourselves we'd

like to be, like walk through yourself on Christmas Day, how you'd like to be at the table, in the kitchen, around the presents. If you do that, your body remembers and your body holds the score and you find yourself being a bit lighter, a bit more kind of taking the piss in a kind of sweet way, not a very passive aggressive way, which enables you to get through the day. And have a glass of wine. Like, give yourself a break. Yes, quite. Definitely. First thing. This one comes in from Sharon who says, My dilemma is that I increasingly anticipate and feel the anti-climax of post-Christmas Day.

When I was younger, it would hit me on Christmas Day evening with a feeling of, well, that's that then. But as I get older, I feel this miserable gloom even before Christmas itself has happened I know it's ridiculous the logical bit of my brain is constantly telling the emotional bit to stop spoiling things and I know now that my nearly 11 year old feels it too she's already worrying about going back to school in the new year and she hasn't even broken up for this term yet so Sharon goes on to say I really do like Christmas although I find it all very overhyped and the pressure to have a wonderful time is intense my daughter asked me this morning are you excited for Christmas because you don't seem to be I try to be honest and explain that as an adult it's not as exciting not as many presents not many surprises and lots of often stressful things to do. But then I shut up because I sound like a modern day middle-aged Scrooge.

Looking forward to what Julia might make of all of this and hoping for some magic advice. I think Sharon has really put her finger on something there, Julia, about the way that we try and juggle our own reality as adults with this desire to keep the magic of Christmas, that hopefully, if we're lucky, we remember from our own childhood, alive for the kids who we're with at Christmas too.

I mean, it's quite a heady combination, that one, isn't it? It is a heady combination. And also the kind of psychological intelligence that if we could marshal our emotions to match our thinking, we would all be in a very different place, but we can't. That our emotions are transmitters of information that are wired to give us that information to say, oh, something is up. So that respond to them. So she feels, you know, that respond to them.

So she feels, you know, tired, exhausted, demanded of. And she also wants the emotional joy and moments of joy. So I think, first of all, kind of, again, with her daughter, think about what are the moments of joy that we really want that give you the magic within the family? Like not, you know, this 24-7 amazing, like, five days or ten days is never going to happen it's just not and you're going to have a you're going to lose it you know when you enter the dishwasher you're going to have a drunken uncle or you're someone's going to ask you the most annoying question they

ask you every year so that is always going to be part of it so kind of that's part of the given but you can you know where you put your attention and your intention, you get your outcome. So if you use that frame for both a few moments of joy and lightness around Christmas and ideally on Christmas Day, that's really good. But also having hope for a plan A and a plan B post-Christmas. So, you know, that you can have a plan that you taught with your family. What would something that we could do that we've never done before that feels like an adventure, that means that we can have a really fun Boxing Day or 28th of December, that we can think about now and can look forward to?

And it doesn't have to be some big, massive thing. It could be going for a walk and having a hot chocolate and a pizza and coming home and watching a family movie. But doing things that are both kind of safe and connecting as a family, not high demand, but also feel different, can be very positive. I would like to add, I wouldn't underestimate the value of watching telly together as a family. I saw some research the other day that you co-regulate. So if you watch a Christmas movie together, for instance, your brain waves start matching each other, whereas if you watch them in separate rooms they they don't

so there's something quite lo-fi and cozy and connecting about watching a family movie voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Hey listeners, want to diversify your portfolio easily? The all-in-one ETFs from Fidelity Investments Canada lets you do just that. Each ETF provides exposure to stocks, bonds, and crypto so you can potentially maximize your return.

It's essentially like getting a complete portfolio in one trade. Visit fidelity.ca slash all-in-one and find the ETF that's right for you. Commissions, fees, and expenses may apply. Read the funds or ETFs perspectives before investing. Funds and ETFs are not guaranteed. Their values change and past performance may not be repeated. We are talking to Julia Samuel, the psychotherapist and counsellor. And Julia is actually best known for her work on grief. And actually, not surprisingly, we've had quite a lot of emails on this subject. We've had so many emails and we

would just like to send our very best to Sasha and to Nikki, who've both written in with their experiences. And I hope it's okay with you that we're just going to concentrate around one email from Denise. But obviously, your grief is personal. And, you know, we can't give really, really specific advice. We wouldn't want to put Julia on the spot too much. But if we just use Denise's experience, I think it will ring true. I feel you're interviewing Julia Samuel at the right time for me.

My brother died very suddenly, nearly six weeks ago in America, and I'm heartbroken. We hadn't seen each other for a long time, but I felt very close to him. I've listened to your podcast since I returned from his funeral in the US in a jumbled way. Please we don't mind that at all. And Denise says can I have some advice? I feel a big part of my family has suddenly disappeared

and although I haven't spent Christmas with my brother for years it's going to be so sad not to be able to get in touch with him and knowing I won't see him again. Christmas is such a difficult time for the people who are no longer at the table, Julia. Any advice gratefully received? Yeah, it's devastating, absolutely devastating. Actually, sibling loss is a loss that's often under-recognised. People often call the invisible mourners who are siblings. So I'm glad that you've read out her letter.

And I think, you know, the whole family system when someone dies shifts and there's this very painful, difficult presence of absence, the shape of the person that is no longer there and the sort of empty chair and what they used to do or say or how they were. So I think first of all as a family you have to acknowledge that you miss them and you grieve them and think together before Christmas Day, well before Christmas Day, what can we do

to both acknowledge the loss and allow ourselves to feel the pain which is how you heal in grief but also if you decide to have Christmas, some families decide to cancel Christmas altogether and do volunteering or do nothing. But if you decide you want Christmas because you've got young children or that is what you choose, what can we do that we can kind of manage that is bearable? Because when you're grieving, you have very little energy

and very little, as she said about listening to your podcast, your kind of capacity to organise. You go to the shop and you've left your credit card behind. So one of the things I think is most important is the task of mourning is facing the reality of loss, so feeling the pain, but also recognising that the relationship continues, that the love for that person never dies, and that that love can be connected to through touchstones to memory. So what could you do as a family? Could you have a photograph with flowers and a candle that you kind of stand around and say a prayer

or go to a place of worship and light a candle and say a prayer? Or could you cook their favourite pudding or the way they cook their turkey, acknowledging that it's their recipe so that you bring the memory of them and the connection them into your body, into your being and around the Christmas table, as it were. One of the things I often talk to families about is having a box where people pop in the memories of the person that's died and then maybe over the Christmas period with a cup of tea and obviously a piece of cake or a biscuit you read those memories out so you can have time where you can look at photographs recall the memories and cry and laugh and connect to each other and the memories which

is really helpful and then do things that help you. So walking and being outside, taking exercise really helps you because grief feels like fear. So moving your body and having what I call circuit breakers, little moments of calm where you breathe, you take a breath and then you come back in so that you can calibrate your emotions. Julia Samuel, our guest this afternoon, and I hope that some of her advice might be of use to all of you. I think just those really tiny practical things about, you know, maybe all doing a puzzle together, you know,

definitely recognising physically somebody in the room who's died. I think those are just cracking suggestions. And Jane and I are very grateful for her time because it is a particularly busy time of year, I think, for the psychotherapists and psychologists. And we wish you a really, really happy Christmas. We've got one more podcast tomorrow before we head off for our jollities.

And I've given Jane her Christmas present today. There was no Christmas present coming back. But I'm expecting something from the re-gifting draw to be brought in tomorrow and I'm looking forward to that very much. I'll tell you what, I'll get you. I'll give you that. Don't give me the book. The embroidery kit I bought at the Cheltenham

Literary Festival. I'm really good for embroidery kits from literary festivals. But this is nice. it's a tabby cat no just no well you don't know I haven't got you something I do right

have a very very good evening don't say happy Christmas yet we've got one day to go, love. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio.

It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank?

I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening.

Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.