Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Rescuing your knickers from next door's buddleia

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

Jane and Fi are making a seamless transition into today's podcast, and they're asking all the big questions: are curtains better than blinds? What would you do if you found your neighbour's underwear in the garden? And what's happened to all of Jane's money?Author and journalist Emma Gannon joins to talk about her book 'The Success Myth'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

and then we just make a seamless transition seamless waiting for the thumbs up from kate lee seamless thumbs up now you referred to this email i think on the live show earlier on today and i don't think we ought to mention this lovely listener's name but it's someone who's going to come and see us in Cheltenham on Monday and it's a huge thing for her Jane because as she says I haven't been able to go out into an audience or

crowd setting for many years I've been plagued with ADHD combined with perimenopausal anxiety or more specifically anti-people symptoms. However, when I discover with great delight that you'll be just down the road from me, I felt compelled to process whether I could manage to come. So you're coming along with a friend of yours who you're going to have an early dinner with afterwards as a way to decompress and just

have somebody there for you afterwards too. And you do go on to say, I just wanted to highlight my personal story, as you may also find that others sitting in front of you are enduring their own struggles, but at the same time should be rewarding themselves for making it out. And do you know what? It's so true, isn't it, Jane,

that we are lucky to do something, I think with relative ease, aren't we? To go to events with lots of people and that's what we do for a living. Do you want something, I think, easier when you're being paid to do it? You just have to make yourself go. I think so many people in an audience are struggling and, you know, you don't know that they are. A lot of people have that kind of anxiety post-pandemic, still being in a crowd.

So it's amazing that you're coming. I really, really hope you enjoy yourself. You're absolutely right. There'll be other people there who are struggling with the other people too. And come and say hello afterwards. Yeah, it takes courage. And we're very grateful to you for bothering to come on Monday. And I really do hope you enjoy it I have just been gifted

your copy of the Lady magazine I know, I know You're thumbing your way through it I like a pristine copy, Jane Controversial stuff on page 23 Are blinds better than curtains? Yes That's why I'm reading it, no don't

Don't I see what you mean I thought you meant it was just a tiny little yes or no box. No, it's a full-page article. Oh, OK. And you turn the page and there's a wonderful tribute to Prince Philip. Prince Philip, Keeper of the Royal Flame. Indeed. I think he definitely kept it burning.

So they say okay now it's been another up and down kind of a week generally for the world and indeed for Times Radio and indeed for us because there's never what have we done? what's happened?

well there's been all that excitement about my pepper mill oh gosh and then today What have we done? What happened? Well, there's been all that excitement about my pepper mill. Oh, OK. Oh, gosh, and then today you had one of those stories that happened very, very rarely, Jane, when your personal life collided with a professional interview. Well, yes. I mean, I've got to be honest. I am one of the 2.8 million customers of Metro Bank. You try very hard to conduct interviews on the subject in a calm way. But yes, what will happen to me is the question you were dying to ask.

I wanted to take our contributor, who is the financial editor of The Times, just aside, just to say, look, OK, this is my situation. But in all seriousness, all of us uh as bank customers you take so much for granted don't you you just think well my money's in the bank um it never crosses my mind if i'm honest that there'll be an issue with that until there is but in this case we do need to be very careful as i said in the interview that sometimes journalists can cause situations to occur that may not have occurred had the coverage been less frenetic shall we say and so the uh the very measured first question to

uh to patrick was shall we just make sure that we've got this in perspective put it in perspective metro bank isn't saying it's on the verge of collapse and that everybody's going to lose their money they are saying that they need to restructure their finances. And they're covered by that lifeboat scheme, aren't they, anyway? So unless you've got over £85,000 with Metro Bank, you are completely covered. Yeah, so please don't take your money out causing a run on the bank. No, not because that Jane Garfield says.

Can we hurry up with this podcast? I've got to get down. Oh, OK. No, Not because that Jane Garfield says. Can we hurry up with this podcast? I've got to get down. Oh, okay. No, I'm not doing it. I just wanted to, because I haven't been into a bank for ages. I do all my banking online because I'm just such a modern gal. Such a modern gal.

You so are. But I couldn't cash, I couldn't put a check in, which usually I do at home and just photograph it on my phone and off it goes. Because my mum... By the way, I didn't know you could do that.

Yes, you can. You can. You can just photograph a cheque these days. But how do they know that it's you who's taking the photograph? Well, I suppose they've got all kinds of cheques and balances. I don't know. I mean, you take a photograph of the front of the cheque, you take a photograph of the back

where you've written paid in on such a date, and off it goes. But I can't pay in my mum's cheques because her writing is florid and also because she is a former primary school teacher of some repute in Hampshire and Angus and Kincardineshire. She still writes the pence as a fraction and the bank just won't take that on a photograph. So what does she write? 52 over 100 instead of 52p. She writes that on a cheque?

She does, yeah. And the banking system just can't cope with that at all. So I went physically into a branch today. And you basically have to audition to get to a cashier. So you're met at the front by a very nice, in this regard today, a chap who had his iPad there. And I had to go through a series of questions before I was allowed to go and see a human

because he really wanted me to go to a machine and I felt myself getting a little bit nervous yeah am I going to answer this right what happens if I answer it wrong and I'm going to have to go to the machine and then the machine won't like it and the cues and all that kind of stuff and the cues building up behind you hugely building up yeah but it is quite a weird thing I did feel one of those moments and I don't actually get them very often, where I just thought, oh, riff you. You know, I am the customer here, and I would really like to, I'd like you to credit me with being able to make up my own mind

as to whether or not I want to go to a machine or a cashier. I wasn't allowed to do that. What has happened? I mean, the customer was always right. What was the fantastic phrase that you used on air today? I have been dealt... I was really so pleasantly riffing on the wonderful, considerate treatment and service I've had

from online banking staff all over the world. But it was the way you put it. What did I say? It was a little bit. It was a little bit, Princess Margaret. It was a little bit. I have been offered wonderful service around the globe by staff. What I meant was when you ring up the call centre of your bank,

then, you know, you can be connected to somebody anywhere, can't you? Yes, darling, I know. No, it was just wonderfully put. It was just quite old-fashioned. But it's still not as good as one of my all-time favourite Garvisms, which was after the pandemic lockdown restrictions had lifted, and you'd

been to see... What was that dreadful film? Jungle Cruise. You'd been to see Jungle Cruise, and you announced on the podcast, I've fallen back in love with the cinema. No, it was Dwayne the Rock Johnson, though. So, proper stuff. Oh, dear.

Let's talk about penises. Let's. This is anonymous. We sometimes refer, and I like this, we sometimes refer to our protagonists as Jack and Mary. Childish, maybe, but we find it funny. How about Cedar and Grip?

God. Rather functional, but at least it points to the vagina's active role in the exchange, whereas sheath suggests something fixed and passive. Yeah, I see that. I mean, you're absolutely fine with your Jack and your Mary until Jack and Mary move in three doors down and you meet them at a street party. Well, yes, or your lovely children come home. Would you like to meet my partner for life? It's Mary.

Would you like to meet Jack? Okay, that would be awkward as well. I think Cedar and Grip. No. Hello, ladies. Shades of Monty Don. Just by way of a coincidence, I have a using the word vagina story from this week. On Monday, I was in a well-known bookshop.

I asked the lovely guy behind the desk if they had a copy of Anne Frank's diary. Yeah. I'm ashamed to admit I'd never read it. I'm 52, says Claire. Anyway, I was trying to write this wrong. And luckily, the guy said, yes, we do, and proceeded to walk me to the shelf and pick it up. A very helpful man. I then asked if he had the abridged version for younger readers

and he said yes, they did good news all round. He took me to that area of the bookshop too and I then thought to ask him what the difference was between the two and he said, and I quote, one of the main differences is the way she talks about her vagina. She describes it in the original as folds of skin and she couldn't imagine anything coming out or going into it. I don't know if this is correct as I haven't read it but I'm embarrassed to admit that the use of the word vagina in a quiet corner of a bookshop between a man and woman literally

floored me and I'm ashamed to say I tried to act all cool of course and I think I did succeed in looking like a grown woman who could intellectually discuss a description of a vagina in public but inside I was literally fainting and sort of squealing. P.S. I do try to be bold these days and use the word vagina with my grandchildren, as I too have read that it's better to use the real world, but they just asked me to revert to nunny, which used to be my go-to as well.

Sorry this is so long. Well, that's extraordinary. And if you didn't know that, Claire, I certainly didn't know that. I didn't know it either. Did you? No, you didn't know that Claire I certainly didn't I didn't know it either I must have read the children's version then of Anne Frank's Diaries well I'll tell you what just because

of the very very experienced journalists we are Jane I'm going to look that up while you read the next email just to make sure that it has veracity well you can't say you don't get variety here well you probably could say it but i'm not going to let you say it because we move on now to the subject of pegs which has really really got people talking um dear jane and fee for a long time now says trudy i've been wishing i had a reason to email

you and get involved alas i had no funny taxidermy images or anecdotes to share. Finally, though, while listening early this morning, third attempt to listen to this particular podcast due to a late night and early morning attempts before therefore falling asleep, I have reason to email you. Clothes pegs. Look no further, and I'm hoping I'm pronouncing this right, than Cully Clean non-slip pegs available on Amazon. Without fail, every time I hang washing on my line, I experience a small level of smugness because I found the perfect pegs. Absolutely fantastic gripping qualities as there is no sliding along the line and they last a decent amount of time too. The only downside

is that the same quality that I love them for means that you can't shove them along the line to make space for clothing items. They just won't budge. That though I can live with. There you have it. Try them and I guarantee you will not be disappointed. Well we're not here to advertise particular pegs, but Cullyclean, and I really don't know how to pronounce it, but I'm going with that, they do sound excellent. Although, as Trudy is careful to point out, they can be difficult to move down the line.

I've just checked, and there are different versions of Anne Frank's diary, and when she talks about her own anatomy, those were originally cut out of the manuscript but you can now get versions in as she wrote it. So isn't that interesting I'd never come across that before. Have you been to Anne Frank's house? No. I went when I was 19 on my sort of loosely, my train trip thing around Europe. When you interrailed to Brussels with a briefcase. That's the one. I didn't have a briefcase. Anyway, I only got as far as Brussels.

But we did go to Paris and Amsterdam in between. And the Anne Frank House was one of those tourist destinations that even as a quite dim 19-year-old, I realised some of the import of it. And I don't know what's happened to it since. I don't know what it's like now as an attraction. But it certainly made me think. And actually, rather sweetly, it was so poignant, actually. On her wall, there are pictures of the Queen and Princess Margaret

that she'd cut out of a magazine. I don't know. That was one of the details I just remembered. It's bloody sad, isn't it, anyway? Yeah. There's no way you can sum that up with bloody sad, but you know what I mean. Yep.

There's a lot of, quite a few mentions of the Frank family in Daniel Finkelstein's book. Oh, yeah. Do you remember when Justin Bieber went to see Anne Frank's House Now Museum in Amsterdam and he left a note in the visitor's book saying how moved he had been by it, but also adding that he would like to think that Anne Frank would have been a believer. And lots of people got really, really upset and said, that's just such a kind of ridiculously prosaic thing to say

and it's very self-opinionated and all that kind of stuff. But Daniel Finkelstein includes this really lovely, lovely response from his own mother, who obviously had known Anne Frank, where she had said, well, actually, that's exactly right. She would have been a Belieber because we think of her now in this historical sense because of what her life meant to the story that we've now come to understand about the war. But she was a normal girl, and she would have absolutely loved somebody like Justin Bieber, and she would have been a Belieber.

And we're wrong to think that she's so far removed from a normal teenage girl's experience that somehow that's really insulting. No, because if you remove her, then it lessens the tragedy of it all, doesn't it? Well, totally, totally. And gives her a character that she didn't have. And I thought it was just such a lovely inclusion.

You know, anything that normalises our relationship with historical characters is good, isn't it? Because it stops us thinking it's a different world that we don't have to join in on. But it was a lovely detail, really lovely detail. Can I just read you this email from Andrew? And I know that we don't have to join in on. But it was a lovely detail, really lovely detail. Can I just read you this email from Andrew?

And I know that we haven't really talked about smoking on the podcast, but obviously it's been quite a big story this week because of the announcements made by Rishi Sunak at the Conservative Party conference. And this comes from Andrew, who says, Hello, Jane and Fi. I was very moved by your wide-ranging discussion of smoking on Wednesday 4th October. I was very moved by your wide-ranging discussion of smoking on Wednesday, the 4th of October.

I think it's a good idea. That's the new policy to ban cigarettes from the age of 14 upwards in the UK. And I have reasons to think this way. 17 years, my best friend and my best man for my wedding, I think that's probably 17 years ago, died from an inoperable, untreatable brain tumour. It was secondary, the primary being in his lungs, and he had been a heavy smoker all of his life. He left a wife and two children.

And the evening he told me he would die within weeks was the evening I smoked my last cigarette ever. I miss him greatly, even after all these years. I talk to him in moments of joy and sadness. I'm a heterosexual, happily married man with children. I love my best friend and best man. I really loved him. I'm upset now writing this to you, but I wanted to tell you yours, A.

And I thought that's such a lovely, honest email written with such good reason to write the smoking, there's been so much chat about it today, will it work will it not work, yadda yadda yadda libertarian, blah blah blah all of that there'll be an illicit black market and there might be

but the whole point of trying to ban it is just to stop lovely people like that from dying. It's smoking a shit. It does untold damage to your lungs. And as our correspondent points out there, it might mean that people you care for passionately are not going to live as long as they might otherwise have done. And it's just really, really sad. But lovely email.

And thank you for bothering to write. Right. What else have we got here? Hang on one second. I mean, I didn't. The clothes pegs thing has taken off. So what can we say? you for bothering to write um right what else have we got here hang on one second um i mean i didn't the clothes pegs thing has taken off um so what can we say it's quite a visual thing the clothes well it is a bit but i just because in the interest of fairness we've recommended one brand and here's another one okay um this is the cyclaireshop.co.uk for the home storm force pegs

as recommended by lizzie, who says, I left my 24-year-old son in charge of the house once with washing on the line. He berated me for my stupidity as a storm was due later that day. But I wasn't worried because I had superpower pegs. I said, leave everything. Leave everything, son. It'll be fine, I said. That's me pretending I've got a son.

And there's going to be a storm coming and I've left him in charge of the house. She goes on to say, I couldn't quite believe I was having a standoff with a young man about pegs and laundry. The next day, though, he had to confess that despite the gales, all my washing was still there. Huh, I said. I survived the 1987 hurricane. I'm a veteran. My underwear, underwear, my underwear flew over several fences in Tottenham. But the neighbours were lovely and I got all my bits back. Isn't that nice? Isn't that nice?

It says a lot for the people of Tottenham, that they found somebody's stray knackers and they handed them in. If one of your neighbours' pants blew into your garden and you didn't really know the neighbour well, what would you do? Well, I know. I'm just thinking of my neighbours. Can we not talk about this? I don't want to embarrass my neighbours.

And what would I do? I'd be more concerned, let's face it, I'd be much more concerned if my knickers ever ended up in somebody else's garden. Would you just pretend that they weren't yours? If you saw them stuck on maybe a buddleia or a small lilac tree, would you go inside?

Would you clamber over the fence? I tell you what, and this is a serious point, I don't know if other people have experienced this, I'm having this quite major building work carried out in my next-door neighbour's house. Now, I mean, it's great for them, and they're perfectly nice people, I should say. It's all sort of, you know, legally sorted out and all the rest of it.

They've moved out, which leaves the rest of us to live with the building work, which will be over, we're told, by the end of the year. Now, what this has, it's been going on since June. What this has done, and I don't know if this is common, is it just seems to have made the local wildlife go berserk. So we've had vermin incidents in the house with dopy dora completely failing to see off an absolutely minuscule field mouse.

But last night, we've got a glass roof in the kitchen over where we have our meals. A ruddy great big fox just walked across our glass roof just before it got dark. And it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. you look up and my god we've been screamed you know it was absolutely horrendous and i just wonder whether all the stuff going on next door has just wound up the local wildlife what do you think i think it might

be that but it just might be to do with the weather as well, because it is so clement. Right. You know, there may well have been an extended breeding season for foxes. So we have a whole family of foxes living down the bottom of the garden over the fence, because the house that we back onto, which has lots of different flats in it, the garden's unused and it's got decking. And that is that you might as well be opening a butlins for foxes with an abandoned garden and decking. So we have foxes come over a lot. And there are a lot more of them this year, which I thought maybe was because of the weather.

You know, they've just been having a lovely time. They're not hiding away at all of an evening. But I suppose, don't be too scared. Well, I don't know. They're just faintly unworldly, otherworldly. I think they're vermin. I really don't subscribe to the anthropomorphisation

of them as lovely, cuddly, gaspar creatures. I didn't pop. I should have popped out with some tofu. That would have sent them on their way. But also, the building may well be disturbing their dens and stuff like that or they may you know have found a very very nice uh you know pile of logs or bricks or something to be living under i wonder whether it's that

yeah and without people being in the house all the time to shoo them away so it could be that too i'm so sorry do you know what I'm just more concerned. I mean, when they do finally move back in, is everyone going to be thrilled to see them? Right. Okay. Linda says this, and then we should probably

introduce our guest, Emma Gannon. Just quickly, my first husband called his todger Torchy. The marriage did not last long. I wonder where Torchy is tonight. Now, actually, we should say, this is a serious note. You can hear my voice changing. We did squeeze in, to the very end of the Times radio show,

an interview with a woman who'd had a hysterectomy. And she had it when she was 48. She had an emergency hysterectomy, and she really feels, Susanna Stevens is her name, she has written about the experience as well. She just feels that she wasn't told enough about the possible impact of the hysterectomy. And I did say that we would love to hear from people who also feel that hysterectomy was not quite sold to them in the right way, that it's had negative impacts on them after the surgery. I am well aware

that there are loads of women who say it's amazing and they're much better for having had it. So I'm just interested if anyone's got anything to add to that conversation. It's jaydenv at times.radio. And could we also do one of our listeners a huge favour because we didn't have enough time to ask Dr Sarah Jarvis what the difference is between a hysterectomy and ablation. Yeah, we didn't, so somebody must know. Yes, so we'd be very grateful if you're a gynaecological doctor,

OBGYN, as they like to say in america um just briefly to emma from st austell um who is very supportive about my pepper mill and just says keep on grinding jane thank you if only i could uh i work in a bakery with lots of bakers who started their professional lives as chefs and pastry chefs the bbc show boiling point has been a talking point this week with many of the said chefs confirming this programme is indeed a true representation of working kitchens. Really scary. One pastry chef said that watching Boiling Point made him feel really anxious as it brought all the stress back and actually reminded him of the highly pressurised environment kitchens are to work in. So much so, in fact, he had to turn off. The fierce competition, the banter,

the anxiety and the personalities are all very familiar to those people I've spoken to who have worked or still work in the industry. Emma, thank you for that. Yes, I've got one more episode to watch and I'm sort of keeping it, but I absolutely know what your friends mean. It's properly stressful. Fee is going to watch some of it. She's promised me she will. I've got to get through True Detective Season 3 first and then I'll sit down with the young lad and we will try and watch Boiling Point.

But you see, we had to give up on the bear because it was so stressful. So it may not be for us. But this is British. I'm not sure it makes any difference. British stress is altogether different. Is it? There's also a scous difference. British dress is altogether different. Is it? There's also a scouser.

You'll like that bit. I'm thinking I may go back and re-watch Tree Detective Season 1 and 2. I'll get there, I'll get there, I'll get there. Right, Emma Gannon was our guest this afternoon on the show. Now, she is a best-selling author and has been described as having the voice of her generation. She's in her mid-30s, and so that makes her the generation that really has grown up with

and lived in the internet. She writes an awful lot of her books about the internet experience, and she did a podcast, very successful podcast, Control-Alt-Delete, and she was in today talking about her latest book, which is called The Success Myth, LettingAlt-Delete. And she was in today talking about her latest book, which is called The Success Myth, Letting Go of Having It All. Here's Emma. Hi, thank you for having me. Great pleasure. I'm good, actually. Good, excellent. So let's tackle the kind of irony at the heart of your book,

which I'm sure you're well aware of. You've written a book about our obsession with success not being all that healthy and how we need to take a step back and take a foot off the pedal but there'll be loads of people Emma saying it's all right for this woman uh she's immensely successful yeah I I understand that and I suppose the heart of the book and also the original inspiration was the fact that I've interviewed so many successful people now for my podcast I interviewed over so many successful people now. For my podcast, I interviewed over 400 really successful people. And I think that's kind of the point is even those people are feeling like it's all a bit of a trap and that there's nowhere to arrive. And we're in this constant hustle of where are we even getting to? So that's sort of the point.

I know it's ironic, but I've gone there. OK, so you own it. OK, well, we've dealt with that straight away, so that's all right, we can move on. It is really difficult, though, because I think, and you do say this in the book, when we're young, when we're little, we think that there'll come a time, if we're fortunate in life,

when we think, you know what, I have nailed it. Fantastic, I've arrived. And the terrible truth, as you get older is that you realise that that moment never ever comes. I mean, I agree. And the cultural conditioning starts so early, doesn't it? I've seen little five-year-olds in pictures on Instagram wearing little mortarboard hats, you know, really praised and told they're going to achieve and that they are achieving. And we put so much attention on actually achieving things. And we don't put any attention on how do you feel every

day? What is your body telling you? What do you want to do with your life? And I think that's the biggest trap really, is we're supposed to hustle, hustle, hustle, rush through our lives. And then we kind of wake up blinking when we're older and retired and think, what was that all about? So my book's about slowing down really earlier on. Did the pandemic have an impact on the way you think about all this? I've always thought like this. And in a way, the pandemic has just made this topic even more accessible, I think. I have always been a really curious person who just wants to know why things are the way they are I don't really just accept things I want to dig a bit

deeper which I'm probably very annoying if I do work in a company because I always want to change things but I just find that you know everyone's quite miserable at the moment especially in work so the pandemic has allowed us to open that narrative and take a step back and talk about flexible working talk about working in a different way, talking about living in different places. You know, it's it's I guess it's a bigger conversation now. In some ways, it does depend, of course, what you do for a living. If you are, I don't know, somebody on the front line of delivering social care, something like that, stuff that is incredibly important if undervalued. There is no way that you can work flexibly. Perhaps you could do fewer hours, but you won't get paid that much

and you didn't get paid that much in the first place. What do people like that do about the lives and the way they live them? Well, I definitely am talking more about knowledge workers and I always have. And I suppose I don't think you can speak for everyone and I don't think you can write a book that is going to please everyone or be for everyone. But actually what I'm doing with this book is I'm kind of targeting the people who, you know, are over consuming. They probably have a good job, but they're still unhappy. They're still buying everything. They're still spending money on things they don't even want, impressing people they don't even like. I'm more interested, I suppose, in really hitting the people who we want to make change and understand that we all want to do things differently. I don't know if that's making sense, but I want the big top bosses

to understand that success looks different for people. Okay, and might that mean not coming into the office at all, or just coming in when you're able to? I don't, to be honest, I don't really fixate on the flexible working thing. And I don't really have an opinion on whether so and so should work from home or go into the office. It's more about internally, how do we feel at work? Do we feel like we're making a difference are we treated like we are autonomous free human beings the way the work work is set up is it's very sort of school kid and teacher even when we're adults so I think that's what I'm more interested in is giving people more of a broad range of what success looks like in in terms of the collective you know there's people that I interviewed in this book who are turning down promotions

because actually success isn't getting to the top of the ladder. It's about having a better day. And that might be interacting with people when you're not just sat in a corner office or getting further away from the job you enjoy. Do you think that your generation is more affected by all of this than previous generations or is it simply the age that you're at at the moment my book i suppose is a bit of a trojan horse in terms of really when we

think about success i'm thinking about success not just for the individual but for the collective and also for the planet we're at a time now i don't know everyone listening probably saw that david attenborough film talking about his life and how the percentage of the wildlife is diminishing and how you know the planet is in crisis so if we think about success maybe we do need to change what that means and it doesn't mean just racing and rushing and acquiring and there's a different way success can look like and I think it can be gentler and slower and actually a bit more feminine I think we're growing up we grew up I grew up in like a masculine dominating culture so did we but it's a bit yeah but it's an interesting notion the age thing

though isn't it could I just ask you to reveal how old you are Emma I'm 34 yeah I'm a classic millennial yeah but but it's such a it's a really pivotal age, I think, actually, your mid 30s, there's a lot coming at you and just a different set of choices, I think, to be made. And for quite a lot of people who are a little bit older, I suspect that if they went back to their 34 year old self, they'd be struggling with different questions. Does all of that make sense? I suppose I'm saying that age kind of, I don't know, it beats some of all of this out of you, really. I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think that's true. And I think, you know, a lot of my book is reflecting on my 20s and how I really bought into the girl boss movement. I bought into when I have this, I'll be happy.

I bought into the kind of celebrity culture aspect of, you know, you'll be happy when people know who you are, things like that. So there's definitely been a shift there. I talk a lot in the book about different versions of success. For example, you know, celebrating divorce, that can be successful because you're free. Celebrating not having kids,

celebrating working in a different way, celebrating quitting your job, celebrating going travelling more. So yeah, definitely, I think being in my mid-30s is not a coincidence that I've written this book. Well, what is undeniable, though, is that having not huge amounts of money, but enough money, certainly to get through the week, and maybe to treat yourself occasionally, money, but enough money certainly to get through the week and maybe to treat yourself occasionally. That is a fantastic gift in life. And I know you're not saying you don't need to earn money, but it's silly to decry those who do pursue not wealth, but just a reasonable standard of living and perhaps better than the standard of living that their parents had. There's nothing wrong with that, is there? No, and actually the the money chapter is the hardest one to write, because it's so nuanced.

Money is really, really important. And money improves our psychological and mental and physical health. Money is the currency of the world we live in. We need it. And I'm not going to write a book saying we don't need money. But we are also in the Instagram age of, you know, Chanel handbags and people going to Dubai in the middle of the pandemic and young people who aspire to be famous, aspire to be on Love Island. I'm not knocking any of that but I think now is the time to really question culturally what we're told we want and what we actually do want. So social media has contributed to that that acquisitional aspect of modern life where young people in particular and actually people

10 years younger than you and indeed even younger than that Emma are seen well that they are they have all this stuff just hurled at them don't they the people showing us their their houses their holidays their jewellery, their fast cars. It's incredibly hard to look at all that and to think, oh, I'm never going to be like that. I can't live like that. What's going to become of me? Yeah, definitely. And, you know, the feedback of this book, which has been so lovely, is that it makes people feel relaxed and it makes people feel soothed. And, you know, I wrote this book for myself, essentially, like I always do. I write the book I wanted to read.

And we are in a time where we are constantly comparing ourselves, no matter what you have. You know, I've interviewed people who have won Oscars and won gold medals. And those people are also comparing. And it's very overwhelming. So this is about kind of reclaiming that slower day by day. And I suspect some of our older listeners will be saying, well, yes, I knew that. I'm really good at craft, for example. I'm not talking about myself. I'm imagining that there was a person listening who is very good at craft, who takes huge amounts of pleasure in, I don't know, guerrilla knitting or painting, doing some watercolors.

I mean, how fabulous is that? They, I suppose, don't need your book. You are writing unashamedly for your people, aren't you? I mean, I don't think what I'm saying is necessarily anything new. And I don't really think that's what I wanted to do. I think it's just this moment in time where I needed the reminder, people around me needed the reminder I did a talk the other day to Gen Z a Gen Z audience and they were on board most of my followers actually are older than 50 because they're interested in this topic so I'm just really pleased that a lot of us agree on this yeah um well we do but it's just that way of I I heard I think it was the author

Frederick Forsyth I'm pretty sure it was him. Hope so, because I've just said it was. And he said the secret to happiness in life was your capacity for contentment. And if you are someone who's able to be content with a nice pot of tea and a really fabulous hardback book that you've just invested in, then chances are your life is never going to pose

too many emotional challenges for you. Do you get that? I don't know if I agree, though, because I think what is keeping people up at night is this feeling, this overwhelming feeling of I should be doing better. I should be doing things differently. I should have raised my kids in a different way. I should be thinner. I should be more popular. These are really human nature things. And I don't think they go away. I don't think it matters really. You know, it's controversial to say this maybe,

but the people who I've met who are very, very privileged, they also deal with these things. And life is harder for people who don't have those things. But this is a commonality that we always beat ourselves up. I feel we're told we're not good enough from an early age. So I think that's why I wanted to open it up as the bigger conversation across the board. We're talking to Emma Gannon,

who's the author of The Success Myth, Letting Go of Having It All. Lisa's texted to say, I'm in my late 60s and I don't think that you ever stop comparing yourself and beating yourself up for not achieving more. I hope that's not true, Lisa, but thank you for that. You can text 287222, start your message with the word times. You mentioned productivity in the success myth, Emma, and the idea, the notion that if you work hard at whatever

you do, it will pay off. But as you're keen to point out, some people work really, really hard all their life and it doesn't pay off, very little changes. Yeah, I think, I mean, I really wanted to make that point. I think we all know it to be true, but that we don't live in a meritocracy. We don't all start at the same point of the starting line and just kind of go through life.

You know, a lot of people have a lot of head start. And I think we're told in this culture, again, that there's a formula and you have to follow the success formula and read all the self-help books and follow the gurus and then you'll too be very successful. And that's not to be pessimistic. It's just I think we need a bit of reality when we're talking about success and also there's different versions like I say well I love the fact that you say that Stephen King the wildly successful author only wrote or claimed to only write for two hours a day and not just any two hours really sociable hours 11 30 in the morning until 1 30 in the afternoon that cannot be true well apparently so and in that in that chapter i talk about how you know a lot of people are so obsessed with other people's routines and copying and pasting and being like i'll be like

them and i just wanted to point out that that does not mean it's going to work for everyone we have to find our own way and it's become its own ecosystem, a sort of pyramid scheme culture where people just sell how I got successful. And I'm sort of quite anti that, I suppose. Do you know what? Stephen King could easily do that though, couldn't he? Because most writers say they genuinely can't write

more than about 600 or 700 words a day. So you could get to that. No, not Ken, but he's extraordinary. So you could get to that. No, not Ken, but he's extraordinary. But you could get to that in two hours. What a lovely, lovely way to live. Well, it just sounds amazing, although I'd be worried about when I'd have my lunch. Yes, I know.

Can I chuck another King, a different King quote at you? It's the very famous one from Martin Luther King, which I think you really agree with, actually, Emma, that everybody can be great because everyone can serve. And that's a point that I think you really want to make, isn't it? That it really is about contributing something which keeps you from spiralling out of control, just chasing things. Definitely, I think wherever you are in life, you know, we talk a lot about passion. I don't really like that word, but I like this idea of having some sort of inner purpose and it can be so small can be making sure

everyone on your street is you know I don't know got a coffee morning or whatever it's it can be go so local um yeah I agree uh you have also nailed it uh outside of the well it's not even mainstream media is it I know that you've done very well with your writing on Substack yes that has been a big surprise to me to be honest because like you just said I mean one of my versions of success for myself on a day-to-day level is am I being generous am I sharing What's interesting about Substack, though, is other people want to be generous back to me because it's a new system where people can pay for your writing. And it's a really great transaction. Can I ask a tough question? Do you subscribe

to individuals who then write on Substack? Is that what happens? Yes. Yeah. So you don't pay per article? Well, you can, can't you? There are all kinds of different ways. I mean, perhaps you can just explain what you do on Substack and that will enlighten us. Yes. So it's an interesting model because you do pay per writer. So some people take out multiple subscriptions and they start off at two pounds a month up to six pounds a month. But you're essentially following an individual who you love. You love their books. You love their writing.

And you get an email from them every week. I've just signed up to Elizabeth Gilbert's, I'm a big fan of hers. And yeah, it's been quite amazing how many people actually have signed up to the hyphen, which is my sub stack. And it's now my full time job. I make a living off it. I don't really need to do anything else now. Wow. Brilliant. I know it's quite something, isn't it? But that's so interesting, actually, that you're doing it. You're really enjoying it because you're feeling the love, aren't you? You are in a much closer place to people who are reading your stuff than you would be if you had a column in, say, a prestigious newspaper like The Times. Yes, which I used to have, actually, a business column for the Times a few years ago.

And I love that really did. But I don't know if the people reading it were necessarily on my wavelength. I now I'm reaching a very sort of targeted, you know, community of, you know, women, especially, but people that just want more. And it means you don't get trolled, you don't have any horrible comments, people are paying to hear from you. It's like it is full of love actually and it's it's quite a refreshing thing but isn't that terrible that you had to go there because you would be safer and people couldn't send you obnoxious messages yes it's it's very very freeing actually and it's it's come along and sort of reignited this blogging boom I suppose I. I feel like it's 2004 all over again. And we're all just giddy about the internet and what it can do. So yeah, I'm loving it on there. You are. And you genuinely do find that if you do write an article, contribute to so called mainstream newspapers, let's say, chances are that somebody somewhere will take that opportunity to

have a pop at you. Definitely, definitely. I, you know, and that's fine. I embrace that too. But I think there's something really nice about having community. And that's something I talk about in the Success Myth is I was just, I just needed community. I think we all do, you know, we're lonely, we're in a loneliness epidemic, where people are so lonely. And I think we all do. You know, we're in a loneliness epidemic where people are so lonely. And I think finding your people online and offline is really great. And also, you know, it's very radical. I don't have I don't make money from brands or corporations. I make money from other people who enjoy my work. And that means I can say whatever I like. And that's also very exciting to me. Yeah. So you don't have an editor ringing up saying, I want you to write 700 words on why

the government's new policy on smoking won't work. No, and I don't have to chase invoices for a year. Well, I mean, for anybody listening who is a freelance writer, that will absolutely resonate with them because that becomes a job in itself. And it's really, really tough, isn't it? It is. And I talk a lot about burnout. And I don't think we talk about the burnout of, I think, you know, it's like death by 1000 paper cuts, you know, when you're doing so much admin don't really need to be doing can really stack up and take its toll. So it's nice to eradicate some of that. But as we're talking about your book, The Success Myth, what would the 11-year-old Emma Gannon make of how things have turned out for you? That's such a nice question. I think about that quite a lot, actually, because I started journaling when I was about 10 years old.

And I've got a lot of my journals from over the years. And what's funny is I haven't really changed. over the years and what's funny is like I haven't really changed um I still like the same things I still you know I'm still curious I still like writing writing whatever I want to write and um expressing myself and not I don't like to be boxed in um I don't like being told what to do that was the same as 11 year old me so I think she'd be really chuffed. And yeah, and I think, you know, the whole message now for me is about trusting myself. We're in a time of such lack of trust, looking at the government, looking at the planet. I think you really have to start going inwards. And I know that's cliche and we all know that. But I'd be happy with the decisions I've made for sure.

Emma Gannon's book is called The Success Myth, Letting Go of Having It All. And I did hear her talking about her remarkable success on Substack, Jane, and I immediately looked up how to join Substack. Did you? Yes, I did. Okay. Well, I'm sure that 750,000 people would be incredibly interested in what I was writing. And then you actually, you look up writers who I really, really

love, especially journalists, and actually it's got like 50 people. Oh, I see. Oh, okay. Well, look. Shall we just settle the debate? What do you prefer, curtains or blinds? Oh, yes, please. This is just some of the highlights from the Lady magazine. Well,

Gillian Spickenall is one of the contributors to this page in The Lady and she's very very firmly in the pro-curtain camp in Shakespeare's Hamlet Polonius hidden behind an arras a tapestry curtain spies on Hamlet as he denounces his mother

suddenly Hamlet stabs Polonius through it a Venetian blind just wouldn't be the same she says it's curtains for me. Oh, that's a great ending. Well done, Gillian. That is brilliant. But how's the

poor person who was defending blinds? That's why I don't have a column in the lady. How does she enter? What's her sign off? Oh, it's a lovely picture of Angela there. How far into the magazine? 23. Okay. Oh, and it's a lovely picture of Angela there. How far into the magazine? 23. Oh, and it's not as good a pay-off line.

This is pro-blinds. Yeah, this is Liz Hodgkinson. Right. Speaking on behalf of the blind. Blinds, by contrast, are timeless and easily and cheaply replaced. They make such sense that they've never been so in.

Oh, no, that does. Oh, dear. I think she dashed that off slowly. Right, OK, have a lovely, lovely couple of days. I mean, I'm a fine one to talk. We will reconvene on Monday when you will find us at the... Oh, sh... I can't... Don't! OK, I feel like I've already lived that day.

We've said it so many times. OK, we're somewhere else on Monday. Speak to you from there. Bye. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us

every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio. We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker. Just shout Play Times Radio at it. You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy. And you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our instagram account just go on to insta and search for jane

and fee and give us a follow so in other words we're everywhere aren't we jane pretty much thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on offer very soon