Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Residents of Basingstoke! Consider Winchester!

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Jane survived Redcar and she has some thoughts she'd like to share... brace yourselves! Then there's more motor-home tales, advice on ticks and a tiny bit of political chat (despite promises to the contrary). Plus, art historian Katy Hessel joins Jane to discuss her podcast 'Death of an Artist'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What you should have said is that you start doing your emails at 5.30. You sit bolt upright in bed, you get your laptop, you place it in front of you and you get to work, V. This is what your public expect you to be doing. No, I don't. I darken my eyes and just lie there drooling. It's today's edition, it's Wednesday today, of Off Air. Welcome. Jane's back from Redcar. Yes. Now, I think originally we were going to say Redcar, because that is how some people locally pronounce it.

But then some people in Redcar, Redcar, told me they thought Redcar was common. So I wasn't sure then what I should say, because I'm pretty common myself. But there's nothing worse than someone who sort of flounces into town and starts adopting a kind of, you know, pretending they know what they're talking about when plainly I don't. Anyway, for listeners outside the United Kingdom, I spent

yesterday in Redcar, which is a town on the north east English coast relatively close to Middlesbrough and about i'm guessing it's about probably 40 minutes from newcastle and quite a long way from london i think it's fair to say so um but obviously everyone's got a vote and there's uh there's quite an interesting um yes let the people vote let let the people vote uh let the people well actually that was interesting

because a lot of people i met didn't want to vote. They really weren't engaged at all. And I remember a couple of weeks ago now, and I kept meaning to read it out and I didn't, an email came in from a listener saying, what do you think about compulsory voting? Because they were in Australia where you do have compulsory voting. And I have never thought that we should have compulsory voting, but I have been thinking about it in the light of conversations I had yesterday.

Because it is a bit depressing when people say, no, I don't think I'm going to bother. But who... So this is a really interesting point, and we've just completely gone off our remit, haven't we? Because we are now talking politics, but I'm glad that we are. Who do you think would benefit in this election if we had mandatory voting? Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.

Because I think it would be the parties further to the right. Yeah, you might be right in saying that, but we just don't know, do we? There are a lot of known and unknown knowns and unknowns in this election in the UK. Again, for people outside the country, why would you care that much? But we do appear to be on the cusp of change in actually any number of ways. Not just the most obvious way that we might have a change of government, there might be all sorts of other things happening in the opposition as well. So it's an interesting time. And I would say it was almost impossible at the moment in this country not to be interested. And yet I met plenty of people yesterday who

weren't. And actually, by the way, some of them just felt that why would they because frankly politicians in in their view would let them down time after time after time and that's the politicians of all the main parties uh not just the current government so can I just mention because I wanted to say that I did have a little look around the Zetland lifeboat museum in red car yesterday it's free admission and it's very interesting and there was a great um lady there in charge yesterday called jeanette who told me just a little bit about the history of the uh lifeboat because did you know fee and i think it's unlikely that you will know that it has in red car the world's oldest surviving lifeboat i didn't know that chain no it was the zland, designed and built by a man from Yorkshire

called Henry Greathead. It was purchased in July of 1802. That's a long time ago, isn't it? 1802. What are you laughing about, you? Do you not find history interesting? This is the young people you see. And it was delivered to Redcar on October 7th. That's you told, isn't it?

1802. Yes. But I think this is interesting. Redcar's notorious coastline and rocks became the graveyard for many an unwary ship and the Zetland lifeboat served for over 70 years, saving over 500 lives. Well, there have been some horrible accidents on that coast. Yeah, well, I tell you what, I mean, there have been some horrible accidents on that coast. Yeah, well, I tell you what, I mean, there is something about, I love a seaside resort. And Margate has had an absolutely huge and very... We've moved right down to the Kent coast now for

the people outside. I'm the Judith Chalmers for the more parochial person. What a leap, yeah. It's had a kind of resurgence in a kind of artistic way hasn't it and i think it's fair to say that red car awaits its resurgence it hasn't quite come for a car yet but it is a very traditional seaside resort right on the north sea and feed the the temperature yesterday i'm not it was 12 celsius yesterday it's summer supposedly. And the grey waves were absolutely crashing onto the shore. It was brisk, I'm not going to lie. So we used to take our summer holidays

up on that east coast because mum's Scottish family are from Montreux. We must have taken a coat. And there's a colour of grey of the North Sea in summer that not even Farrow and Ball would be able to recreate. Actually, what would you call that colour?

Dirge. Dirge grey. Dirge grey. But we used to swim. We used to jump off the salmon nets right out at the end and then swim back, which just seems so weird now. I mean, you know, I like my swimming, but yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

But look, you had a good time. How was the bus? We wanted to hear about the bus, because it was the RV experience that you were looking forward to. And we've had these amazing emails about motorhomes, and keep them coming, because some of you have just been on some brilliant adventures. Well, this is the, it's an American RV, the Times Radio election bus,

but it's been kitted out to allow some broadcasting to take place on board. So if you, like me, enjoyed on The Buses, get that out of your head. It's nothing to do with that, with Reg Varney and Olive needing to stop for the toilet every five minutes. This is a whole different experience. It's very sleek.

It's beautifully refurbished inside with Times Radio-appropriate soft furnishings. There is just a logistical issue around the size of the space around the well it's the bonkette seating either side of a table and it is going to be a challenge for some of our well i'm just going to say some of our more some of our more substantial colleagues thank you fiona yes those those men uh let's be are going to, I think, be squeezing on board in the next couple of weeks. But what happens in the rest of the RV? So have you got a little kitchen?

There's a bedroom. Well, who's in that? It's just for saucy times. Is it? Yes. It was actually just full of equipment. Oh, that's a shame, isn't it? But not saucy equipment.

Technical equipment. There was not that kind of bus. There was a shower, but for reasons I didn't fully understand, that appeared to be sort of tapered off. So what you're saying is that all of the really, really good fun things about the RV have been closed for safety purposes. Exactly. But it is purely a broadcasting space with a very substantial steering wheel.

And can I just say, I do not want to ever have to drive that bus. I just couldn't do it. I really couldn't. I think we're all grateful you've made that choice. So does it have one of those seats like in Meet the Parents, Meet the Fuckers, which is like one of these seats we're sitting in now. Great big swivelling office chair. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's got the big man chair at the front.

You see, I just think there is something comical about a woman our size taking control of the RV. Well, I didn't know you were so enthusiastic. Put your name forward, because I'm sure I've done my turn now. No, the kids' exam's gone to October. Oh, for God's sake, no they don't. They finish on Friday. Right, that's

it then. You are in the firing line. Right, now we had a podcast yesterday that featured a man and it was Matt Chorley and it was lovely to talk to him actually and we've had some compliments. Well, we've had an email from Stephen who says, does Sick of Fancy work to get read out on the pod? Yes, it compliments. Well, we've had an email from Stephen who says,

does Sick of Fancy work to get read out on the pod? Yes, it does. Firstly, love the show. And I hate it when I don't have a backlog to listen to, as today I'm up to date, but I did enjoy a man on it. Perhaps Matt could give Locum Jane a run for her money. And Stephen goes on to say, I was listening to Fi talk so knowledgeably about Australian TV shows as I walked down the Goldhawk Road. It's very on to say, I was listening to Fee talk so knowledgeably about Australian

TV shows as I walked down the Goldhawk roads, very close to where you live. Don't give my location away. And I thought, how does she do it? Not just Fee, but Jane too. You both seem to watch all sorts on the television box. Because we don't go out. Let's be honest, Jane had to when she had that column.

That comes up so often. A woman loses a job and it's a constant. I'm constantly pilloried. Jane, Jane, Jane, Jane. Will you just row back, please, from that exaggeration? We've literally never mentioned it on the podcast. It comes up a lot. Anyway, carry on with the email.

OK. But all those books you have to read, a show to prepare, which must mean you have to have a vague grasp of the news hours broadcasting live and a podcast gcse's and a levels to be supported of dogs to walk something to be done elderly parents somewhere north of watford to attend to on top of just being witty and a bane i've slowed down for this bit and presumably having a social life is it all smoke and mirrors and your working week is only 20 hours

because I can barely keep on top of a newspaper every three days, gardener's world once a week, the archers, and a 20-minute daily dog walk? And I have a husband who does most of the shopping and all of the cooking.

I do have a full-time demanding job, but what am I doing wrong? Is it because I'm a man? Well, I think you've absolutely nailed it there, Stephen. There's a man with absolutely everything, including a husband who does the do. I think you're extremely lucky. But yes, we are basically super women. And if we had more time, we'd write a book telling other women how to be super like what we are. It always makes me laugh. So there was a slew of books when my kids were quite young

that were written about the juggling ball of parenting and how incredibly difficult it was. And you just think, what? I'm juggling so badly, I don't even have time to order that book on Amazon. No, no, no, read it, write it. How does that work? Was that the whole stuff a mushroom thing?

No, Life's Too Short. Life's Too Short to Stuff a Mushroom. That was Shirley Conrad. It was Shirley Conrad, yes. But no, it was after that time. There was a big explosion in the publishing world, wasn't there, of books about parenting, guidebooks to parenting, Gina Ford being the uh prominent of those how to do it this is how i've done it this is what's good about it bad about it terrible here we go um and i just found it bewildering i mean i genuinely

genuinely didn't have time to you know read a book enjoyably from cover to cover uh let alone write one about how to do it better. And I never will. We also talked about tics at the end of yesterday's podcast. Yes, were you both very itchy? Well, I can't really remember why. Yes, so Ruth had a PS on the end of her email, and she was sympathising about double exams. In my excitement at typing this,

I ignored the tickling sensation on my left leg, looked down before pressing send, and saw a tick trotting up my capacious thigh. The chancer is now in the hedge. Now, it's lucky that you spotted that. The hedge, like outside. Yes, very much so. It's not.

I read it twice too. Yes, okay very much think so. No, I'm just joking. I read it twice too. Yes, okay. Thank you. Yeah. There we are. But somebody else hasn't been so lucky, and we've got some terrible, terrible tick stories. Now, ticks are big things.

Oh, well, they're not. They're tiny things. Yes. But they're a huge problem now, aren't they? Yeah. Well, they are. Do you know how to remove a tick? I don't.

You've got to twist it and make sure that you don't leave any of the tick inside you. Why? Because what happens if you do? Well, that's the bit that will infect you. And, you know, Lyme's disease is a huge thing. Oh, that's horrible. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible thing. And there are many, many more ticks now

in this country because of climate change and the erosion of the boundaries between urban living and natural, rural, countryside things are spreading everywhere. And you do have to be really careful. So if you get a tick, urban living and natural, rural, countryside things. They're spreading everywhere. And you do have to be really careful. So if you get a tick, twist it with some tweezers and pull it out very, very slowly.

I'm just passing on advice. No, I'm absolutely agog. Thank you. I'm all ears. I just think at the moment, the conversation about climate change in Britain is really annoying because this has been by some margin the worst summer that i can ever remember now am i just being a gloomster and in fact someone was like this a couple of years ago or is this particularly crap well i was reading something the other day a long read about the weather um which said that we are

definitely down by a couple of degrees on what our may and june should be though isn't it and it's wet it's the wettest one on record yeah but jane it's not you know we're not talking about climate change and uh you know kind of um political policies to do with the environment very much at all in this election we're not we're not and actually i i know that i'm a bit of a gloomster, but talking to Max Hastings the other day about we're not talking about defence either. So we're not, I agree with you, it's odd that we're not talking about green issues. And in fact, the Green Party, there are all sorts of suggestions, they may not actually do as well this time, as they have done in the past. Which seems incredible. Which does seem

incredible. But so we do live in interesting times, but it is odd. I agree with you. This is from Sasha. I like to think I'm fairly clued up on things. Product of a really good state school education. And I do have a natural curiosity. So how the actual hell did I not know until listening to your podcast

that women in some countries didn't get the right to vote until after World War II and Switzerland waited until 1971. I'm literally mind-blown with that fact. 1971? It was 1893 in New Zealand. How can there virtually be 80 years between them?

I've gone right off Swiss chocolate. That's from Sasha, who says, keep on educating. Yeah, maybe if New Zealand made chocolate, we'd be all over it, wouldn't we? Yeah. We've had a lot of people informing us about the wraparound ads that they're listening to at the moment. This one comes from Richard who says,

I've just returned from four weeks in Australia and almost all of the ads either side of the podcast were public service announcements from the New South Wales government. It's slightly odd, isn't it? Well, I think they can obviously feel the educational propensities that we have within the podcast. It's the authority, the natural authority that we both have. Do you think they've heard and listened?

God help them. I don't think so, no. Anyway, the PSA spanned advice on creating a fire evacuation plan for your home, how to recognise signs of coercive control and a campaign encouraging residents of sydney to consider moving to canberra she's a little mean yeah what's wrong with sydney we don't we don't have equivalent ads like that in this country we don't we should perhaps we should residents of basingstoke get out consider winchester well we don't do that. It's only about, is it, they're about 20 miles between them. 23. 23 miles. Okay.

This is headlined, and it's slightly upsetting for us because we do rate ourselves, it's headlined Charity Shop Bargain, and it's from Caroline, who's had a wonderful discovery in her local charity shop for the bargain price of a quid and a signed copy to boot. What do you think she found? Well, I can see it there.

Oh, I see. Okay. So I've given it away because she's included a wonderful photograph of our seminal work, Did I Say That Out Loud? Notes on the Chuff of Life, still available by us both. That was a labour of love during one of the lockdowns. And we are delighted that he's brought... She's two chapters in, Fi and uh she's quite enjoying it

that's all you can hope for actually caroline does say she's had a rough couple of years um treatment for cancer and my mom was diagnosed with vascular dementia 18 months ago so she's now in a care home our dad couldn't cope and her needs became too great so i mean she's going through it as caroline and indeed her sister so lots of love to you both i'm glad you listened to the podcast and listen we'd like a full assessment of our work when you've completed the book caroline it's no good two chapters in because many many horrors await you so get stuck in and let us know so there was a i mean the pandemic was a very difficult time and as we always say say, you know, we got off lightly. We didn't lose our loved ones during it.

But we did write that book during one of the lockdowns. And we got to about chapter eight and we just did a Q&A. Which is why you'll find that neither of us wrote War and Peace. But thank goodness someone did. Oh, dear. So this one comes from Louise, who says, I was heading up from Cornwall to my daughter in manchester cornwall moved to manchester always tried to not stop until gloucester services but i may change my habit because my coffee of choice a flat white was four pounds 15 well they have got

you because you're on a motorway they've got you by the googlies they've gone over four pounds i chose the filter coffee on principle. Love the show. And listen, mainly when, for some unknown reason, I wake up at 5am. You and me both at the moment, Louise, I'm stuck on 5.22. Oh, are you?

That's irritating. What do you do? So I've got some iPad, you know, thingy-jiggy. No, no, no. When you're awake at 5.22. No, I put the eye thing on. Oh, I see. So you don't get up and start.

And just try and stay in bed till six. I don't want to get out of bed. That's a very modest ambition, isn't it? Till six. Just think, just rest up. But, you know, I think once you're awake, your bladder calls, doesn't it? Well, I wouldn't know.

Stephen, this is why. I mean, he's right. We are both superwomen. What you should have said is that you start doing your emails at 5.30. You sit bolt upright in bed, you get your laptop, you place it in front of you and you get to work, V. This is what your public expect you to be doing. No, I don't.

I darken my eyes and just lie there drooling. Yeah. A little bit of drool on the pillow. It's always a welcome sight, isn't it? This is from Sophie. I had to write in after hearing the Tory manifesto yesterday. Can I just say, Sophie, you're the only person who felt so moved by that Tory manifesto that you needed to email us. But actually, this is possibly a niche point, but it matters to her and she won't be the only one. I'm a foreign national and I have indefinite leave to remain. But how much do the Tories expect to gain from increasing the visa fees?

Because I didn't know this. People like Sophie still have to go through a lengthy application every 10 years to renew their biometric residence permits. I don't know if many people are aware of this, says Sophie. Well, I certainly wasn't. But the visa fees are constantly increasing. To give you an example, the application fees for the indefinite leave to remain, it was about 700 quid when I first applied in 2007. The Home Office took the money but then rejected me. When I applied again in 2013, the fee had gone up to 1,300. Currently, the same application costs £2,885.

People like us can't vote in the general election, so I guess we're easy targets. I think that's fascinating. It's a lot of money, isn't it? And also, I take the point that if you get rejected, they still get to keep the money. And actually, so over the course of what a decade you've already paid six thousand pounds yeah well yes it looks like it currently there's

nearly three grand to apply now yeah right i don't know i mean i i do occasionally um get into conversation with people who have partners or friends who are applying for the citizenship they have to do the citizen i can't say it so i wouldn't pass it the citizenship test and some of those questions on that test are really they're quite hardcore and it requires a level of knowledge about this country that very few of us who live here have they're ridiculous so one of our colleagues boyfriends boyfriends was doing it the other day and she relayed a question to us, didn't she, about where the original Iron Age

village or the most intact Iron Age village in the UK can be found. I mean, who cares? Sorry. People who've listened to this podcast now know about where Britain's longest lived lifeboat is. It's what it might.

They will be able to thank you for it, Pat. Well, let's hope. I don't get the thanks I deserve. Can we just do tats with Matt? Because we were talking about tattoos with Matt Chorley on the podcast yesterday. Does he have one? No, but we were wondering because his other job, if he hadn't made it in the world of broadcasting, he might have entered into the management scheme at H. Samuels because he was very good on the shop floor.

But he said, I absolutely cannot pierce ears, you know, with a gun. Oh, yeah. And I wouldn't be able to do that. I couldn't do that. Bursting someone else's skin. I wouldn't be able to do that at all. I'd like to do that. That's a worry.

So then we got on to tattooing and we were wondering how a tattooist gets good. Where do you practice? So he put this out to his listeners today on the show. Mike, two kisses. There's fake skin you can practice on. Also a side of pork works

well. Most tattooists also have some of their own practice work on them. Other than that it's understanding friends and people willing to take a gamble on cheap ink sylvia says i believe trainee surgeons practice stitching on a grapefruit maybe tattooists do it on melons or oranges matt says don't most tattoo artists earn their stripes in prison and this one comes from uh steven who says when i was in hospital i had loads of tattoos there were loads of tattoos on the person next to me i asked the question and the answer was his mate was learning to tattoo and he let him practice on him

p.s the guy needed more practice and chris from birmingham has very helpfully sent in a link to where you can buy the fake skin that you can get to train. OK. Shall we send off for some and have a go? No, let's not. Motor homing has just proved to be a fertile bit of territory for this podcast, so thank you. As a child says, Jane, I was obsessed by camper vans. I loved that you could sit on a sofa in a vehicle

or take something out of a fridge. Yeah, I mean, that's just, to me, it's fabulous. For our honeymoon, my husband and I spent a month in New Zealand travelling around in a motorhome. We loved it. I cannot describe the joy of parking up by one of New Zealand's stunning deserted lakes and being able to make yourself a cuppa,

which you can enjoy on your camping chairs overlooking the scenery before moving on. Well, fast forward 12 years to 2017. We had three children ranging from 8 to 12 and a new puppy. We thought it would be a great idea to get a motorhome, so we'd go off as a family to explore the UK, making memories. We invited the kids to name the new motorhome, and the winning name was Donald Trump. Well, we made some memories, all right.

Our purchase of the van coincided with the huge increase in major storms in the UK, which almost always beautifully aligned with our motorhome trips. We've enjoyed storms Brian, David and Hector, and even ex-hurricane Ophelia. There's nothing quite like being trapped inside a giant metal box with three increasingly large children

and a wet dog, sopping wet walking gear hanging from every available surface, the van shaking and the wind battering the windows. Because it was usually so wet when we went away in the van, we'd often get our three-tonne vehicle

stuck in the mud, having to be towed out of ditches, parking spots and the campsite itself. Well, I'm sorry to say that basically it ended badly when they set out for a week in Hereford. We had been planning to go to the lakes, but another storm had hit and the app showed Hereford to be the least wet place in the UK that week. We broke down four miles from home and sat on the hard shoulder of the M56 in Manchester for two hours waiting to be towed. During this time I posted a picture of our situation on Instagram and our wonderful friend Karen messaged me to say they were on a family holiday in Crete in a lovely villa with plenty of room for the five of us. I booked our flights and we headed off three days later.

I've now retired from all forms of camping and we sold the motorhome later that year we've been back to crete three times since well there we are what are you doing i'm just typing in best caravan names thank you just to compliment the conversation thank you jane for that email and your wonderful tall stall tales of your time in Donald Trump. Also, that's a big tow, isn't it? That is. You have to get an absolutely enormous truck.

Imagine trying to get the purchase on that, Jane. I can't. Have you ever been towed? I've been towed a few times. Oh, it's very embarrassing. It is embarrassing. It's just so embarrassing. But the worst thing I ever did,

and the greatest joy I ever gave my father, I'm sure I've told this story before, was the day I put petrol... It's always nice to hear them again. I put petrol in a diesel car. And truly, he was delighted. That's really mean. Well, there's nothing a dad in...

I think he was by then only in his 80s. He just thought it was fabulous that I'd made such a cock. Yeah. Anyway, that's all about bringing joy, isn't it? It is. Well, go on then. Best motorhome note. No, I can't get a signal.

I'm sorry. Lovely bit of content there. I'll save that for another day. I think basically the studio, we're in a massive Faraday box, aren't we? We can't send help. Nobody would hear us, Jane. If we were in trouble, they wouldn't hear us. No, I've only just learnt the massive faraday box aren't we we can't send help nobody would hear us jane if we're in trouble they wouldn't hear us no i've only just learned the term faraday box do you want to explain well it's a box uh named after presumably a clever person i'm going to say

person not man necessarily and it's it defies any signal or nothing can get into a Faraday box. So if you want to put your mobile phone somewhere very, very safe, or key fobs, that's how I came across it. Because there's a really good, well, it's not good, it's good for thieves. There's a scam, isn't there, that people can clone your key fob and open your car if you've left your keys in your hallway. Oh my God. But if you put them in a Faraday box, obviously they can't. And can you...

Nothing can get in or out. Can any member of the public get a Faraday? Oh, yes, yeah. Yeah, you can get them at... I would have thought you can get them at good hardware stores. Thank you, Frujane. I'll tell you what, Carla and then... Shall we go to our guest?

Who's our guest today? It's Katie Hessel, who is the art curator, historian and author. Yeah. I've got a terrible story about Spare Tyre as well. I'll save that for another day. This one comes in from Carla, who says, last year in Australia, I listened to you as usual, including on a hellishly long, stinky sleeper train

from Sydney to Melbourne. Amongst others, the adverts were for sliders and towels on offer at Chemist Warehouse and a local Bunning Sausage Sizzle. The latter is the equivalent of Dave and Bob the Scoutmasters fundraising by cooking dinner in a B&Q car park. Now that

is much more us. I think a sausage sizzle Bunning Sausage Sizzle needs to be adopted in this part of the world, although we don't have the weather for it. Now, our guest this afternoon is Katie Hessel. And she's a woman on a mission, really.

Her book, The Story of Art Without Men, celebrated the work of women artists from the Renaissance right up to the present day. And it did really well. It won the Waterstones Book of the Year Award. Now, over 300,000 people follow her brilliant Instagram account. I can really recommend this, at the great women artists. And she is also someone who's making podcasts. Her most recent one is called Death of an Artist, and it focuses on the relationship between Jackson Pollock

and his wife, also an artist, Lee Krasner. Now Krasner, Katie argues, made Pollock, and his wife, also an artist, Lee Krasner. Now, Krasner, Katie argues, made Pollock a famous artist whose work still sells for hundreds of millions of dollars. When he died, though, and it was a death, I have to say, caused by his own drunken driving, the couple only had $200 to their name. Katie really is passionate about her cause, celebrating female artists. But I did wonder if she ever gets a bit disenchanted. I do keep on banging down doors, I have to say, because it is an endlessly fascinating and endlessly important topic. And it's also not just about women artists' contribution. It's basically also making sure the arts is accessible to all and saying to everyone that they can be part of this and actually you know so many people think the arts are over there it's for those people

it's not it's for all of us you know we all have the capacity to be artists even if we are you know property developers in our day jobs or whatever you know we can all have this and I think what artistic education what artistic education and freedom can give people is so life-affirming and then when you look at these stories you know stories change the world and so when you see these stories of these incredible people who are telling you something through their artwork that you somehow instantly recognize but have nothing to do with it sort of changes your world about something okay let's just start with what we know to be true as we speak in 2024. The art by men is still, there's no doubt about it, it's valued more, it is worth more. Now, when is that

going to change? And how will it change? Well, it's not only that, it's that a woman's work on average goes for a 10th of a male artist's work. And I hope it will change soon you know I mean for example I mean when we look at the statistics and museums which not only sort of increases um value in terms of money but also sort of cultural value of artists you know one percent of the National Gallery's collection is by women only last year did the Royal Academy of Arts have their first ever exhibition by women artists in their main galleries and whilst the statistics are shocking you know things are getting better you know if we look at exhibitions that are on right now in in London you know Tate Britain has an exhibition called Now You See Us which is women artists 1520 to 1920 which overturned my idea of

the history of art I went into that I went went into that exhibition not knowing 75% of those artists. And so all I'm saying is that although the statistics and the imbalance is still so shocking, I truly believe that it will get better. Just to go back to that exhibition at Tate Britain, that's one of the free exhibitions, is it? I can walk in off the street and I can see that. It's not. It's a paying exhibition.

Right. You see, I suppose that might explain why, well, to be honest with you, I've been to Tate Britain within living memory, but I didn't know that exhibition was on. And I suppose I'm now asking myself, would I pay to see it? Am I wrong if I've got doubts about that? Should I pay to see it uh am I wrong if I've got doubts about that should I pay to see it well exhibitions are very expensive and I think you know what the National Portrait Gallery did recently is that they actually opened up their museum for certain hours for their fantastic exhibition um recently curated by Echo Ashan and you know that just giving people that window of free time allowed anyone to be part of it and you know exhibitions just giving people that window of free time allowed anyone to be part of it and

you know exhibitions are extremely expensive and they're not available to everyone but also it's you know even if people can't physically go and see that exhibition what we can do is also spread the message I mean I'm always sort of banging down the doors of TV production companies and saying you know you can do a documentary on this and it can be around forever and those who can't get to the exhibition or those who can't afford to go to the exhibition can also be part of the story. And, you know, their excuse is always like, well, we're going to make a three part series about Picasso. And I'm saying, well, there is a reason why these names remain headline names is because you're not giving the opportunity to those who can become headline names. So which are the headline names, the female names that we should all know now,

contemporary female artists from Britain or elsewhere, who should be household names? I mean, someone like Flora Yuknovich, who's an extraordinary painter who's in her early 30s, who creates these incredible kind of reimaginings of Rococo paintings. She's actually got an exhibition right now at the Wallace Collection and is the first ever artist to actually infiltrate and have her work in the Wallace Collection's upper galleries, because usually it's all Rococo and sort of pre-19th century art. And her work, she's kind of reimagined these Boucher paintings that are on view. And what's extraordinary about her work is that she really kind of marries the history and contemporary I mean when you see these works you will not you will you will fail to be stopped in your tracks

um to be um just just amazed by the sheer beauty of these works and sheer kind of aliveness of them and what about the fact that that you mentioned that killer statistic, Katie, about the value of male art versus female art? What is it again? Just remind us. A woman artist on average goes for just 10% of a male artist. Right. So whose fault is that? Presumably it's the fault of the people buying the art and either buying the art and either overrating male achievement or buying male work because it's by someone who's famous. And perhaps that level of fame has been achieved because that person isn't female. I mean, is that right? Well, it speaks to a much larger problem about the gender pay gap. You know, why does the gender pay gap still exist?

Is it because of this sort of systemic sexism that exists in the world that people pay men more than women? And that, you know, it's almost like the art world acts as a kind of microcosm for that. And it's also really interesting when you think about who's been able to write the histories of art, who's been able to curate the shows, who's been able to write the histories of art, who's been able to curate the shows, who's been able to be the directors of museums. It's so often been the same people from the same background of the same gender and the same race. And what's exciting about now is, you know, we have someone like Maria Balshaw in charge of the whole of Tate, the first ever woman to be so, and she only came into her directorship in the last few years,

first ever woman to be so and that only she only came into her directorship in the last few years but already tate have committed to a 50 male and female collecting scheme and also they've done these extraordinary exhibitions like now you see us which does overturn your view of art history because it acknowledges the fact that women contributed to this art they it's not like they didn't exist some of these artists were international celebrities in their time. It's the fact that there has been something where they've been written out of art history. It's not just that though, is it? I mean, I'm aware, dimly aware, quite possibly, of the absolutely dreadful personal conduct of so many hugely successful male artists and they are they were in some cases are monstrous and we worship them for it it's part of their notoriety it's talked about it's it is celebrated it just

isn't possible is it for a woman to get away with that kind of thing well I don't think it should be possible for any human being to get away with some of the monstrous things that some of these male artists have done. And I don't understand why they're not, while I don't understand why in so many different industries, they're not being called out. There's something about, you know, I'm very fascinated by this idea that there's still this kind of lone male genius kind of idea. And, and well, if this person has this sort of artistic greatness, then well, they, they, they can't be faultless. Is it possible to be a really brilliant artist and to not have even a hint of monster in you, whether you're female or male? Humans are complex. I'm not saying that you can't be, you know, you can't do wrong.

It's just, you know, I mean, my whole work is not about telling that story. It's about telling the other side of the story and saying that all these people existed. You just haven't looked properly at them. And actually, also, maybe there's a reason why this person was able to become this great artist because they had this backing. And we don't tell the full side of the story. Well, you have done brilliantly, to be fair, in your latest podcast, which is about, well, I was going to say it's about Jackson Pollock. And I shouldn't say that really, because it's not about Jackson Pollock, but it's about the incredible woman, also an artist who basically saved the man's reputation after his death. And I mean, did so much. I mean, was instrumental in bringing him to the art world. Lee Krasner. to the art world, Lee Krasner. Yeah, just tell us that story because he, Jackson Pollock is an artist who, I think it's fair to say, he does divide people, doesn't he?

And to some people, he's the living, his work is where modern art just loses them. It splodges, it splats. But Lee Krasner, his partner, did what after he died? became an art, decided she would become an artist from the sort of age that she was in elementary school. And, you know, went one hour from Brooklyn to Manhattan every single day to attend the only arts high, the only high school in New York area that allowed the admitted women arts education. And, you know, made sure she got the right contacts, entered into these art schools in these, you know, places, became, you know, in the aftermath got the right contacts, entered into these art schools and these, you know, places, became, you know, in the aftermath of the Great Depression that I've actually written about in The Guardian this morning, about Roosevelt's New Deal

and how he basically implemented this new programme that gave artists a salary. And so they were able to actually become artists and work on public commissions and everything. And then she met Jackson Pollock in the early 1940s and she she saw something brilliant in him because he is an incredible artist i mean you can say what you want about the idea that you know my kid made that i did but but but i think i think that when you do stand in front of his work it's it is sort of there's something kind of cosmic about it i mean

you if you really look you can't help think you're kind of trapped in this kind of constellation of stars and kind of going through these ropes of comets and everything. And it's extraordinary. And she saw that, but she was also always maintained her artistic practice. But she was also very conscious that this guy who suffered from addiction and alcoholism needed help and he needed, you know, to be, to be fostered in terms of his art career. And she introduced him to the right people, the right galleries, got him the right shows and, you know, got him that spread in Life magazine that asked, is this America's greatest living painter? And, you know, um he in his decline in his later years he um sadly died in a car accident when he was drunk he killed himself and the woman he was having an affair with friend edith metzger and the woman he was having an affair with ruth klickman survived and afterwards lee krasner

despite knowing about all this made sure that she would secure his legacy. And so after he died, she worked with his dealers in terms of getting his work into the right collections. And actually that this miraculous thing, which was in 1956, so he died in August, 1956. And just afterwards, she had a meeting with his dealer

and they had this work, Autumn Rhythm, one of his great canvases, was meant to be sold for MoMA for $8,000. And Lee Krasner said, no, it's not going for that. It's going for $30,000. And her dealer kind of almost fell off his chair because no American abstract painting. I mean, yes, we see thesener and Jackson Pollock had $200 in their bank account. They couldn't even pay for the funeral. OK, and so they were really living in, you know, almost poverty. And she said that this is worth $30,000. Alfred Broad Jr., who was the director of MoMA at the time, didn't even bother responding to the letter because he thought it was so ridiculous. And so she said, fine, let's offer it to the Met.

They're their biggest rival at the time. And the Met went through with it. And overnight, I kid you not, the American art market changed. You know, the stratospheric crisis, we can link that back to that sale. That's an absolute stroke of genius on her part, clearly. But now a Jackson Pollock work would cost, I don't know how much, hundreds of millions, presumably. How much would you pay for something by Lee Krasner? Well, that's the thing is that the, I think the highest, um, you know, it's, it's below 10 million is the highest, uh, work to go by Lee Krasner or around that.

And he really would be hundreds of millions, would he? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. I mean, that's an illustration and, um, it, but it illustration, but it shows her commitment to him. And I have to say a very particular commitment, especially when you describe the circumstances of his death. So let's hear it for Lee Krasner. Do you mind entering our election booth? Because I'd like to get your political memories, if you don't mind. We're asking all our guests over the course of the election period katie uh for their earliest political memory so what have you got in your locker um my earliest political memory it's a bit of a personal one i guess i mean i don't know if it's if it's correct um to say this is a political memory but it was the um it was the birth of tony blair's son his his latest son because i was born in the 90s. And so I just, I remember New Labour being in power, but it was around the kind of millennium that was my earliest political memory.

Should I do that again? Sorry. No, no, that's interesting. It's interesting because people have said all sorts of things and that will do because it's a memory connected to politics. So as I'm just writing that down, that's the birth of Leo Blair. I think you'll be the only person who says that, but that's fine. It's your earliest political memory.

The first election you voted in, it was the 2010 general election. And when you vote, what is uppermost in your mind when you make the decision? Education. And education for all. Right.

And who are you voting for this time? I'll be voting for Labour. Katie Hessel, who was brave enough to visit our election booth, and honestly, she is brilliant. Her book is great, her Instagram, at greatwomenartist is really worth following, and the podcast is excellent too. So far in the election booth,

have we, Fi, attracted a single Conservative voter? We haven't. We haven't attracted a Lib Dem or a Reform voter either. And I think it's quite interesting. We haven't had anybody who says, you know, I've never voted. Or actually, I've voted for lots of different parties over the years. So make of that what you will. We've had no floaters. We've had no floaters, Jane.

No. Okay. Barbican, says Eve. Oh, which is helpful. Thank you. So if you want to come and see us do this live and meet other people who listen to this nonsense. Who are similarly afflicted.

Then see them in the cold light of day stare them down then you can because jane and i've got a couple of live shows coming up at the barbican in the heart of london's central east london you're gonna say in the heart of the west end well it's not it's not uh in february so you've got plenty of time to plan. And if you are interested in doing that, we'd love to see you. It's a really nice night out for us because we get to meet all of you lot and we always see people kind of making friends,

actually, in the crowd. Like-minded people. Yeah. And what day of the week is it? No idea. There's a Tuesday and then there's going to be a Saturday as well. And it's in February

and if you look for Fane Productions you can find it or if you just type in Jane and Fee then it will come up and you can book some tickets if you'd like to, we're not going to mention it don't worry because it's only June we're not going to mention it all the time

six months away our listeners are busy people and this gives them the chance to plan. Just briefly on the wraparound ads, depending on where you live in the world, Julie says, you don't need to travel abroad to have a cultural experience with your ads. I live in Shropshire.

Well, but close to the Welsh border. So I get Welsh ads in Welsh. Do we know what they are? Well, no, because Julia doesn't understand them and nor would I. TV recommendation from Sarah. Have you seen Bump, the comedy drama about a schoolgirl having a baby?

I've seen some of that and it is excellent. Is it? I think it's got one of the best first episodes of any comedy drama I've ever seen. It really is an astonishing first episode. I'd recommend that to anyone. Is it Australian? Yes. Yeah. Okay. It's available. It's on the iPlayer. They're making some good stuff, Jane. I know. I don't know what's got into them. I really don't. And I would also recommend, if you're looking for another hard recommend also on the iPlayer,

I was telling Fi to watch it earlier. It's Lost Boys and Fairies, which is a three-part drama. It's like nothing I've ever seen before. Loosely speaking, it's about adoption. I would love to hear from other people who've seen it. Let me know what you think. Excellent. And I'm going to watch some of that on your recommendation. I'd be very interested...

Excuse me, I'm so sorry. I just tapped the microphone there. Apologies, Eve. I'd be very interested in anybody else who is indulging in the French version of Selling Sunset, Buying London, which is just called Agence. And it features a French family with four sons who are all in the estate agency business. And it is glorious. Which city is it, Session?

Well, it starts off in Paris, but then they expand and they're all over the place and sometimes they're in St. Bart's or Corsica or Cannes or whatever, but it is glorious. It's like a deep-fried camembert of a programme, Jane. It's so wrong, it's right.

Okay, right. Well, you can cheddar gorge your way through that. Right. Have a half-decent evening, and we will be back tomorrow. No more of that Matt Chorley. He's gone. He's gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone.

We're back tomorrow. Thank you so much for all the emails. Jane O'Phee at times.radio. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five.

You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. Sorry. so silly. Money to bank? I know ladies don't get banked. A lady listener? I know, sorry.