Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Ripping my shirt off in M&S just for a thrill (Andrew Lownie)

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

The heat is getting to Jane and Fi and they're getting themselves into a right muddle with bra sizing. They also cover rugged terrain on the King's Road, diaper parties, the charms of Worcester, spooky parking talents, and extravagant wedding outfits.   They're also joined by royal biographer Andrew Lownie to discuss the paperback of his book 'Entitled'. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/ Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It wants us to stay living there for a very long time. Well, I saw a friend over the weekend who'd felt funny feelings in a property not unconnected to her family. I hope I'm distancing her from what... She got a shaman in. Wow. Okay. She felt there were presences. Well, I don't think she's alone in that.

No. Oh, gosh. Weave. In fact, there's a newsreader who occasionally is on this station. He does exorcisms, doesn't he? Oh, yes. That was the same kind of thing. So I don't feel, I mean, obviously I've had my spookiness in Bromley.

Yeah, but that was, you're not in Bromley in the house. No, not in Bromley. So, no, I think my house has just tried to tell us that we should stay. It's just, that's what I mean. Yeah, it's just kind of heard love to help. Don't leave me. My mum, who's a very, very rational person and very intelligent person, she really felt that one of our previous houses in North Waltham,

near Basingstoke Jane, was haunted. and the dog used to sit at the bottom of the stairs and occasionally just howl and he was a very, very good nature dog and very, you know, malleable and mild but something used to spook him and mum then did discover that there was a priest hole in the house

and many priests died in priestholes and she used to stay up of an evening in the hope of seeing the ghost and I remember thinking, well this is very weird We rented the house out when we went to live in Hong Kong for a while and the people who moved in there got spooked by something and it was the very hot summer of 76

and they ended up spending most of the summer sleeping outside because they were a bit afraid of whatever was in the house. Isn't that weird? That's very weird. Really an anecdote more appropriate to a special time October. Yes, no, that's true. But we've gone very early. Or Channel 5.

Or D-Channel 5 at about 8 o'clock On a Tuesday Presented by Yvette She's made a good living out of that Out of night vision goggles Now shall we say Just a big up to Eve Salisbury Who's got a byline in the Times

For her contribution In terms of production To your splendid interview yesterday With Giselle Pelico And it took quite a lot of doing it always does when you're doing an interview in a different language it adds a complication it's quite a strange thing to be asking very personal questions of somebody and then they are giving you the response but you're hearing it in a different voice yes it was it was um quite a trial for my brain

actually but eve wasn't giselle just incredible she was amazing and i you don't just say i'm not just saying that no but she really she had so much warmth. She was really smiley, really positive. Her temperament was really welcoming. She smiled at everyone she encountered. It was quite special to meet her. It was actually, yeah. And Eve's exactly right. The way she conducted herself was impeccable. And she must be, she must be exhausted by all this. But she seemed really relaxed. She did seem really relaxed. But when you bear in mind what she's been through, I guess, let's be honest, going on the publicity trail, to talk about your memoir, is as nothing, compared to everything else that's happened to her.

So, remarkable woman, I think we're both really delighted to have met her. But even so, Jane, I mean, it's, you know, to constantly have to retell your story when it's that dark, I think would be immensely difficult. Well, actually, I didn't revisit any of the really dark aspects of the memoir in the conversation for various reasons. We didn't have a huge amount of time. And I do wonder how many people listening to this podcast have read the book and which bits of that book they wish they could unknow

because there are elements of that book I can't quite get out of my head and I sort of wish I could. So that's why my respect for that woman is absolutely off the scale. And I really hope that the rest of her life is as calm and as peaceful and actually as productive as she hopes because she isn't just going back to her new. home and her new partner and sitting on her laurels, she is, she's doing more trips abroad, she's got a holiday, she's just had a holiday, she's going, I think, to the Nordic countries next.

And she's, you know, she's absolutely not giving up. Yeah. Well, I hope, and this may sound strange, I hope she enjoys her success. I think, well, I got the impression yesterday. She was enjoying it. Because she's allowed to, she's entitled to. Yeah. And what a choice to have made.

We talked about this very briefly off the back of the interview going out on the live show yesterday. But I think there is a tiny danger, isn't there, in expecting everybody who has been through something similar to her to be able to make a choice that she's made. And in the same way that people who have cancer or a life-ending, life-limiting condition, may not feel that they want to take that path of, being open and bold and brave or whatever it is that you want to call it. You know, some people do want to stay being very quiet, can never get to a place where they could put it in a different part of themselves, which clearly Giselle has been able to do. So I just think it's worth a nod to that as well.

Yeah. I think it's, and anyone also, I think it's worth saying, Anyone who thinks it's a very French experience, well, there's a case coming to court in this country in the autumn that I'm afraid is not dissimilar. So let's not kid ourselves. This stuff probably goes on in every country. But Giselle has set, you're right, she set in a way a kind of unique high standard

and not everybody will be able to go public in the way that she did. But her essential point, which is that I've done nothing wrong see my face know my name look at me i'm here and she's entitled to every single second of the rest of her life she absolutely is without that absolute monster the the every man monster being involved in it so very good luck to her it wasn't it interesting we only mentioned that she was on the radio program yesterday and within nanoseconds a man had sent a WhatsApp message to say please remember it's not all of us yeah but i mean it did it did start with a kind of science here we go again. It's just like, and I'll name you, Cy. No, it's not, it's only here we go again

because it keeps on bloody happening, mate. I mean, if you want it to stop, go and have a word with with men. I mean, you know, don't have a go at women for talking about an appalling experience inflicted on them 99% of the time by men. So, you know, listen. But then we had lovely, lovely messages from men saying, you know, I've learned a lot from listening to what's happened to some women and it's changed my perspective of feminism. Can I just say one last thing about this because I don't want to talk about Doug, Pastor Doug very much, but isn't it interesting? The same amount of time, 20 minutes with Pastor Doug Wilson and 20 minutes with Giselle Pelico, which one teaches you more about the great, great depth of humanity, the profound nature of thought,

the need for change, the ability, yep, to embrace things that life throws at you that you didn't want it to throw at you. Which person gives us that? It's been really interesting. We had a lot of emails, haven't we actually, haven't we? Haven't we? Haven't we, haven't we, love? We have. from people Vickers, just saying I'm so embarrassed by this dog man and he doesn't speak for Christians that isn't Christianity, how dare he?

It's just worth saying, he'll have made a tidy living out of all that as well, right? Yeah, well, he's got a book. When we interviewed him in the background, he's sitting at a kind of professional broadcaster's desk and his book title is in the background. And, yeah, he's...

Let's not mention the book. No, God. Let's just not mention him. Right, Parish, this is very important this, because we had an issue last year, didn't we? Catherine is trying to get tickets for the Fringe by the Sea. Now, listen, Catherine. She's headlined the email. Listen, Catherine.

She's headline the email. He's like Tony Blair. Yeah, listen. He was on this morning, and he started... Did he say, listen? He started in his interview with, look. Oh, look! Yeah, I'm afraid that's not...

There's a cross against his name for that. I find it really annoying. Yeah. She's headlined her email. tickets for Berwick upon Tweed. What is wrong with that fee? Does it happen to a listener last year? North Berwick. It's not Berwick upon Tweed.

Don't go to Berwick upon Tweed. Don't try to go there. I mean, you can go there, but not if you're hoping to see the podcast. It will not lend you, lend you, lead you to us. We're not there. We're at North Berwick. What is the geographical distance between the two locations? Oh, I've got no idea. I'm going to guess. We'll put Eve on it now, but I'm going to guess, I'm thinking probably about 70 miles.

Okay, fun times. I'm going to go. Come on. Join in. So I was going to go 75. I'll stick with 75. Okay, right. Come on, Eve. 40 miles.

Oh. And if you do end up there, an hour and 25 minutes by train, you would miss the show. Yes, you would probably. But you could maybe take in the sights if you... It's a beautiful place. Yeah, it is.

Well, you could just join the queue for merchandising. You could just join the queue for merchandising. be the queue for merchandising realistically. Anyway, please, we'd love to see people at the fringe by the sea. It's such a nice festival. It's a beautiful location but it's North Berwick. It is. And we had such

a nice time there last year. We're delighted to have been invited back. I was so impressed with our food trucks, Jim. I just had a lovely breakfast. I remember that. It was just, well, you couldn't finish it, could you? No, but I tried very hard and it was pleasurable. It was meaty. It was black pudding and everything.

Yeah. It was good. So we will see you there and a top-level guest yet to be announced. Catherine, I hope you do secure the tickets. And honestly, I'm sorry I said, listen, in that right, their aggressive way. I didn't get much sleep last night. What's the matter now, Eve? I'll put a link in the description. Well, Tony.

She's putting the microphone on. A friend of mine rang this morning to say she enjoys Eve's contributions, but she does like to hear them. So I've had to have a word with Eve, and she's now promising to put her microphone on. You should just leave it up all the time. And you can just bob in. You like the fader, don't you?

I like the fader. And sometimes I drop something where I have a little fall off the chair and it's best left off mic. Sometimes she nods off. She's developed that brilliant habit, actually, that a lot of our producers have of managing to get through most of the podcast

thinking about something else. Doing an online shop. Well, one of them did use to just get out the mobile phone. Don't get me started on that. And do all the emails. Yep. I've carefully left the gender out of that description. Yes, that was very good.

Linda, a place in the sun in reverse. Thank you for this. This is a fantastic little cartoon. Well, it's a photograph with captions, saw this and thought of you two. And it is a middle-aged couple. They're well-dressed. They're drinking beer.

And they're sitting on a sofa, I think, somewhere in about 1973. They're watching television. And the caption is, I wonder if Spanish people sit at home watching a program called A Place in the Pissing rain. It's been very hot Linda, hasn't it?

It's been very hot here. Oh, we're getting our own back at the moment. We're not happy about it, but anyway. Jennifer in Australia, that's not very specific, Jennifer, because it's a heck of a big place. So where do you think Jennifer is? Do you want to have a punt?

Can you just give me a little bit more context? Read a little bit out and we'll see one of that place is it. Okay, I'm a bit behind on episodes. So I've just recently listened to one where fee you mention, I think for the first time, London falling. You say that this is the book by Patrick Raddenkief. You say that while previously you'd see someone driving an expensive car and think, gosh, you've done well for yourself, but the reading that book had changed your perception of displays of wealth in London. I haven't read the book, but somehow the many shocks and horrors of the

last couple of years have changed me in such a fundamental way. I look at people in ridiculously expensive cars and I think, who are you or your ancestors exploiting and harming to accumulate such wealth? Some days I try to imagine something more benign, a pop star or actor, a surgeon or a barrister, but even then I end up wondering at the vast moral void they must carry inside to allow driving around in such a self-aggrandicizing display of wealth when there's such poverty and struggle everywhere you look. Gosh, that's interesting. Jennifer goes on to say, the very best I imagine some of them bleating, but I donate to charities, I have a foundation, and me replying, not nearly enough, mate, if you can still afford and feel okay about

driving around in a car worth half a million dollars. I think she's in Adelaide, but I don't know why I say that. Well, that's interesting, isn't it? I was going to go Perth. Jennifer, tell us exactly where you are. Do you think you're, yeah, what do you think about what she says? Do you all, I don't know whether I look at every single person in a huge car. If I see someone in a ludicrous, and we've got one in our road, actually. I mean, it's essentially where I live is suburban.

We're not out in the countryside. You don't need a four-wheel drive in East West Kensington. You don't. But we've got one or two verging on monster trucks in the road now. What's that about? Same here. We've got some of those Land Rover defenders. You know, the ones they advertise on the television

where they're going through mountainous terrain, and then they're in a jungle and then they're going across the desert and you think, yeah, I mean the Bulls Pond Road. I mean, it can be a challenge. Sometimes it can be a challenge. But it's the wrong car for the wrong place. They're so wide,

they actually slightly stick out over the white lines of the parking spaces. And I look at them and I just think you're in the wrong barrow. I didn't realize the white lines were, do they contain? As I said earlier, I just stopped the car and get out. But they are, they're just ridiculous.

I just really, hate them because the only reason why you're buying those in a city is to show off that you've got money because you don't need any of the stuff that's on them and they're inconvenient you can't get into most multi-story car parks you definitely can't get through an awful lot of you know very tight traffic controls I just think just go away or yeah I don't know the Kings Road is not rugged terrain it's not just isn't it's not but I think the the point is

it's a slightly tricky one isn't it because for some people doing well in life and making some money gives them they enjoy the reward for themselves and I wouldn't ever want to really knock that at all and if you've worked hard for it and cars are your thing then I don't think I want to say that everybody who drives a nice car

no but it's showing off but I do appreciate the point of what is it that you're trying to say to people who would just never be able to get where you are about who you are, that's quite strange. I think you probably haven't ever really thought that. Some of these issues were discussed in the interview with Abigail Disney, actually. I don't know if you heard that, Jennifer,

but there's a woman born into vast inherited wealth who has, by her own admission, given lots of it away, but not all of it. But she absolutely nails the notion of, or she dismisses the notion of trickle-down economics, that the idea that they're very wealthy, as long as they're allowed to carry on being very wealthy and spending and employing people,

in the end will all benefit. And she says that's crap. Yeah, but it's never worked. No. Although people still think, I mean, they still go for it, don't they? Well, they do, but sometimes I think that is because they want a political excuse to encourage just the self-generation of wealth

for the sake of yourself. I think it's almost on a par with the Ayn Rand virtue of selfishness, isn't it? So Ayn Rand's M.O. is basically to say that if you power yourself through the world then that's a virtuous enough thing to be doing. Don't get

distracted by the sense of community. Don't buy a copy of the big issue. Or whatever and I think it, you know, because it was such a bold concept at a time when the world was also trying to defend socialism,

communism, all kinds of other less selfish ideologies. People did definitely leap onto it as a way of justifying, just making money for yourself. But I don't know. I don't know whether that's really where we should be going. The point, just to go back to Jenny's email, about looking at people in a different way, though,

I think we all need to do that. Because it's not even about not caring what very, very, very poor people might think standing next to your unbelievably rich car, and I'm sorry to use such kind of bold terms there, it's about the fact that you are deliberately scamming our system. You're not paying taxes in this country. You're not sharing it around. Your kids are nowhere near the community that they live in.

It's about all of that stuff too, isn't it? And Patrick Radden-Keefe's book, I've just never read anything like it in terms of how well and how close he gets to exposing the people who come over here and just use London as a backdrop to just go, hey look at me.

London lets itself be used as well. It does, doesn't it? Anyway, it's such a good book if you haven't read it. It's still in hardback, isn't it? But definitely worth a look, presumably the paperback will be out later this year or first thing next year. And Jenny, just let us know where you are geographic. Yes. Back in the real world, Fiona has sent this

extraordinary description of a house that went on the market in Worcester. Now you have a connection with Worcester. Yes. It's where my sister lives. I hope that's not giving too much away. She doesn't listen. So I'm a regular visitor. But then I did my local radio there.

It's where I first walked into a radio station on, I'm trying to remember the date, but it was around this time of year in... Does it not say on the plaque? It should do in 1987. And it might even have been today. in 1987. And do you know what? I walked into Radio Wyven in Worcester and the receptionist was asleep. Never forgot me. And I love that place and I loved the radio station and I met some great people. That's great. So this is a description of a house that has been put up by an estate agent. And it's a red brick, I'd say, built somewhere around maybe 1980s.

Yeah, it's probably a sturdy property. Yeah. three-bedroom, detached house with the front porch. Lovely. Here comes the description. A long, long time ago, in 1978, to be exact, in a land far, far away, a beautiful family home was born on a sumptuous corner plot.

This is the actual description. Is this AI? I don't know what it is. With the castle yet to be built, careful thought was taken on how best to place the rooms within the lawned moat that was to surround the home. For this, the owners raised the alarm and called for an architect, old English word for someone who can draw a house properly.

comedy there. The architect toiled for weeks, finally presenting the owners with a layout that met their needs, a room for the family to relax and enjoy the views of their garden, a room for banqueting and one to prepare the family feasts. In addition, a cloak room was added to stop those dirty footmarks

leading to the upstairs bedroom. So it goes on, so it goes on, so it goes on, I'll just get to the end. Whilst the home isn't hidden behind thick brambles and guarded by a dragon, time has had its effect on this lovely home, and it's now needing a night and shining armour to fight off the years and bring it back to its full glory to create a new home

and create your own fortress for you and your family. If you feel as though you are the one, why not book a viewing? I mean, we should say this is a perfectly pleasant but unremarkable red brick which I'm guessing, I don't know, does it say the price? It doesn't say the price. No, we're leaving that to our imagination. But yeah, what's going on there? I think so. I think so. I'm Someone's had a drink. And did it work? I mean, did they get more viewings? Because people just found that such an outlandish and very amusing.

It's a late 70s house. It's falling apart. It desperately needs someone to come in and spend a few quid. And it does look lovely, actually, in many ways. I think it would be a perfect family home fee. Well, no, we've had a lovely handwritten card, haven't we, from Cathy, who tells us that she's just been on a spring trip to Canada, went on some long road trips with her daughter.

It sounds absolutely lovely. Now, your writing is a little tricky, but she does tell us that new dads in Canada now have what's called a diaper party after their baby is born. My son-in-law's friend had just become a father, so son-in-law had a drink with him in the man shed. I think that's what she's telling us.

And each man who comes brings a pack of diapers. That's quite... and they all sort of have a kind of bonding session around fatherhood. But do they take their babies? It doesn't say, it doesn't say that. It's quite true. Mum's at home looking after the baby. Don't be silly.

But the fellas, they need a break. So they just go to a mansion, get pissed, and just use the big pack of diapers as a footrest. Well, I don't think that's great. That can't be right. Kathy, I'm really sorry, but we just couldn't quite make out exactly what's going on there. So tell us more, because we do want to know. I mean, I do admire the idea of men getting together to discuss New Fatherhood.

Definitely. It seems a really good initiative. But yes, you're right. The salient point is, is Mummy getting a break? Not from the sound of it, no. There were quite a lot. I went to see, do I have already mentioned it? I went to see Fullum play Newcastle at the weekend. and because basically fee I just can't pretend I don't like football I've just got to just I think I've just got to give into it in my later life anyway there were loads of blokes there with young kids

and it was quite clear that the kids were actually too young to be I think football for the under tens is a bit of a waste of effort really it's quite expensive and the kids don't want they don't really want to be there even if they say they want to be there they don't really it's too much for it's too hot

they're not that interested over after a first 10 minutes It's quite a long time. Yeah, it is. You're two hours sitting in a seat, getting hot and bothered, and I just think, wait until they're really ready for it. I just got the impression. Some of those blokes there had said to the misses, I'll take the kids out for the afternoon.

And they'd actually take into a football match, which may well have suited the chaps. But who knows, perhaps the children had begged to go. I've got to be careful. You never know, do you? But also, there is that thing, isn't there, for diehard fans where they do want to make sure that their kids never even contemplate supporting a different team to them so they're kind of you know born into a west ham strip

i don't know you mentioned west ham well they've gone down they have uh deborah says um she's had a bra fitting i so related to this she says like you both i went in for my fitting fully expecting the tape measure treatment and a serious mathematical assessment. Instead, the lovely assistant simply asked me what size I was wearing, took a look at me and immediately spotted that a few wobbly bits were doing their best to escape from the sides of my bra. I'm 65 and a size 12. I thought I was doing perfectly well in my trusty old 34 double-ds. She disappeared and came back with armfuls of bras in completely different styles and sizes. I explained I wanted comfort above all else, no padding, no wires, no torture devices

masquerading as underwear. After a very entertaining 30 minutes of trying things on and laughing at myself in the mirror, I have binned the 34D and I'm now the proud and extremely comfortable owner of a 34F. Who knew? Honestly, I can't stop smiling at myself in the mirror, comfortable and uplifted. Miracles do happen, says Deborah. Well, we're no strangers to miracles here after what happened in Peckham with Eve's phone. But isn't that wonderful that Deborah is now uplifted and just comfortable in the right bra. So you've gone up a size and a half there. Yes, it's the, now correct me if I'm wrong here.

What does the, the letter is about the cup size. So the inches, the 34, that's your back. That's your back. And then, yeah, and then. Eve's going on holiday next week, which does explain why she's in such a good move. Carry on. The alphabet, she may leave halfway through here. There's someone who's had so many brawitted, though, you don't think you would.

I think Jane's going for a bra fitting for different reasons, Dave. Carry on. I think she's just like taking a top off and I'm looking at the breast. Sorry, but it's a conclusion many of our listeners would have reached before me. I'm just saying it out loud, Jane. Not until it gets cooler. Press on with whatever point you were trying to make. I was trying to explain it to you.

The alphabetization is the cop-size. I can't believe I have to tell you both this. I was doing that in an attempt to explain to our male listeners, some of whom are homosexual. I know that. What exactly we're talking about here? You're going to get yourself banned from a minute. God, that can't happen. God, the thought.

But the really weird thing that I've never understood about the FF and the whatever, is that some of them don't have a double. So I don't think there's a double E. Oh, I think there is. Is there? I don't think there is. No, I only know because on my own was an enhancing journey. and honestly in middle age throws so many things at you but extra boo barge

what's the point so you do have to keep changing your bar size and some of us managed to just I was going to say suck it and see oh fee god terrible rabbit hole here I don't think having made that journey across the deed to further up

I don't think there is a double E's looking at up these are things that you never thought in journalism school you were going to have to do there's not no there you go okay well that's great mystery that's an utter mystery somebody needs to make a 10 part

Netflix series about that the missing E I'm completely lost what type of person do you think would watch that we need to revisit that title there's triple D apparently see that's just bizarre okay why would you have a

how that is an infinitesimal change from a D to a double D to a triple D. I'm seeing so many letters and numbers. Yeah, don't worry. It's all new to leave letters and numbers. Okay, right. We have got a guest, which is just as well,

and it is the phenomenally successful author, Andrew, do you know what, I can never, ever determine how good chance is his surname. Lowney. Or is it Loney? Oh, I always say Lownie. Well, let's say Lownie then. He is the author of entitled the book about

Andrew and Sarah and there's a new paperback edition with a new material out and it's doing terribly well but you know the guy is he's absolutely committed to the well basically he won't rest

I don't think until justice is finally done here and let's hope it happens do you think that Sarah Ferguson has valuable things to say in public that you would want to hear. I do think she needs to go and talk to police about what she knew and saw

and all of that kind of stuff. Everybody involved in the Epstein files and who knew Epstein should do. But she's gone to ground in a remarkable way in a world where very few people seem to be able to escape scrutiny. Yeah, hopefully we'll ask him about that because where is she who's looking after her. Apparently she's not friendless. She does have friends. And actually in the book and also in the hardback edition when I read that, he makes it very clear that she is an extremely problematic figure, troubled, certainly, but also someone who had particularly astonishing gifts with profoundly disabled children. She could go into an orphanage and she wouldn't flinch.

She would go up to children, she would pick them up, she would calm them. So there are sort of mitigating factors. with her. I don't think there are any for Andrew. But it's clear that Sarah, who obviously is, as you say, she does need to speak to the police. And we shouldn't say that lightly because it's of huge significance.

She is not without, she's a complicated figure and not without some good points. And she had a very troubled childhood. Terrible childhood. Abandoned by her mum. Well, no, awful. Awful. But actually, going back to Giselle Pellico's mother

died when she was very young and she had a rotten stepmother. and a distant and not particularly involved father. So, you know, even more reason for her to enjoy her life now. Exactly. Yeah. Before we get to Andrew Lowney, can we just... What happened?

I went back. You shouldn't do. Punch the microphone. Well, if you're now awake, I'm sorry. It's the middle of the night. This one comes in from Helen, because Helen was the mum who sent us the news. that her daughter was getting married with Upstage the Bride

as the call to arms for everybody else's dress. It was my son Fergus and his now wife, Molly, oh, so I've got that the wrong way around wedding in Brixton on Bank Holiday Monday. I'm pleased to report that despite our best efforts to Upstage the Bride, gold gowns, ostrich feather hats, frills and fascinations, Molly out shone us all in an elegant vintage silk sheath dress

with alterations by her grandmother Penny. Now, it would have been a hot one. You all look gorgeous, but you're right. Molly just looks so beautiful. It's an almost slashed to the ribcage halterneck satin dress. It's really understated. She looks remarkable on, and that you can tell from the sky, that the sun was absolutely pounding down.

But she looks so cool and so sophisticated. Yeah, and Fergus is looking good too. Yes, no, it's lovely. So what an absolutely lovely day. and I think that's such a great theme, isn't it? Because actually it does allow the bride to just be simple if that's what they want to be and everybody else is doing the peacock feathers.

I think it's such a nice idea. Yeah, it's great. I wanted to mention this because I have the opposite problem. Anna has what she describes as a superpower. I must boast about this, she says, and I wonder whether others in the hive are similarly gifted. I can find a parking space bang outside wherever I need to be. This is a remarkable thing.

I'd like to see some more evidence. Well, I'll go on. She says it's spooky, but jolly useful. I've always said we need spooky music for the podcast. As you know, there's no budget at all here. So you'll just have to think spooky thoughts. Thank you. A peak example was back in the days when you could park on Kensington Gore,

and we had tickets for one of those children's BBC proms at the Royal Albert Hall. With two small children in tow on a hot London day and having driven up from Bristol, my friend Esther and I needed a piece of luck and blow me. as my mother in all innocence would say, if there wasn't a space immediately across the road from the main entrance to the Royal Albert Hall. It happens time and time again.

Although, sadly, not in multi-story car parks. They're horrid places anyway. My mother, from whom I inherited this gift, had it too. And just as she and my father used to do, my husband and I will swap places as we approach our destination so that I am always driving. I hope you're not doing that while the car's in motion.

No, they've got to be careful. I mean, I don't think you should. I think in every situation, heteronormative, the man must be behind the wheel. So I'm shocked by that revelation, Anna, but also incredibly jealous of your gift. That is quite a gift. The parking god is on your side.

A couple of my friends have got that gift, and it nags, it really does infuriate me. Does it? What, your friends have some happiness in our lives? They have happiness and ease of parking. Parking anyway is a skill that eludes me. But we can't be good at everything. No, that's very true.

And as we've said before, driverless cars can't come soon enough. Not for me. For you. And, well, I mean, I think you can get cars that park themselves now, aren't you? Can you? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

We'll just get another hubby. You can drive you around. I don't know why. That's the answer to all my problems. You're absolutely right. Right. We have nailed it. It is Loney, Andrew Loney.

And he's our guest this afternoon here on Times Radio. The author of Entitled to the Rise and Fall of the House of York. Now it's already topped the book charts. Now there's a paperback edition with additional material. We are, of course, obliged to say that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor denies any wrongdoing. Most of us know now that he's living in a kind of royal exile in a property on the Sandringham Estate. His ex-wife, Sarah Ferguson, well, her whereabouts are unknown.

We'll discuss that in a moment. Andrew Loney, welcome to the programme. How are you? I'm very well. Very nice to be here. Well, it's good to have you on. Now, your Sunday Times piece, I think it was, over the weekend, had the headline, I fear the royal family will never let Andrew end up in court. Why, why not? Well, I think he knows too many secrets, and he may well begin to spill them in court.

I mean, they shut down the case when Paul Burrell was being tried in 2002. And I think, you know, I'm just speculating, but the danger is he will say, well, you guys all knew about this for 25 years and did nothing. He can summon his brother to appear as a witness in the court, and of course his brother, the king, can't appear in his own court. So I'm sure Gary Bloxham, who's his lawyer, who specialises and basically keeping his clients out of court, will have found all sorts of ways of avoiding this. It does sound, reading between the lines, as though we are being prepared for not much happening, actually, on the Andrew front.

Without being untutely cynical, that's the impression I'm beginning to get. What do you think? I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think the narrative is being created that, you know, he wasn't a paid employee, he wasn't an official, he won't get a fair trial. very hard to make these things stick, etc. And I think there's an obvious case here of a breach for the official secrets act. He shared confidential information with another party who was not supposed to have it. I mean, it seems to be clear-cut.

I think what's also interesting is we're now being pushed into the line of the sex trafficking, which kind of keeps the king out of it. Because clearly if you've raised questions about financial misdemeanors and the royal family, there's a danger that plastic bags for bits of money for, Cash for honours might be brought up. So sex trafficking, I think, is the way they're going to go. And I think Gordon Brown's intervention was very helpful. But of course, he's now been silenced now.

He's got a job in government. So actually, I'm very interested in what you just said about the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. You don't think he's... You're not suggesting that Sekeir Stama gave Gordon Brown a job in government, so he couldn't do any more work on the allegations against Andrew? Well, I don't know. But I mean, certainly Gordon Brown has got very quiet. I mean, he reached out to me immediately.

I reached back to him. and I've heard nothing further and we've heard nothing further from Gordon Brown now that may be a coincidence but there are a number of people in this story who have moved into positions working from members of the Royal Family who I was keen to talk to for the book

and was told it was impossible for them to now talk because of their service to the Royal Family now they can't talk to you people who might have talked to you before so what exactly has changed well I think the Royal Family are worried the hecklers are all saying who knew what, when.

And that's the question they can't really answer. And I think it's a question that they need to answer. Because if, as I think is pretty clear, they knew about this and they kept it quiet, that doesn't suggest they're letting the law take its own course. I mean, I'm getting stories from policemen who are being reminded of their obligations of confidentiality, civil servants who are being reminded about their pensions. This doesn't seem to me there's a full cooperation going on. Right. Officially, of course, the king put out that pretty powerful statement when Andrew was arrested back in February. The law must take its course. You're suggesting that there's some rather sinister things going on. That's your belief.

Well, you raised the point about performative, and a lot of this is window dressing. A lot of it is about giving the impression of something being done. But I don't think there's any real evidence of something being done. I mean, the fact is, you know, Andrew's Mr. Beaners have been in the press the last 15 years. We've had moments, for example, like something. Sarah Ferguson being caught selling access to him as a trade representative. He remained as a trade representative even after that. We've got unexplained £1.3 million to the members of the royal family in the Selman Turk case. And even my book, which came out last August, didn't seem to shift the dial much. It's only really because we have the Epstein releases with literally everything in black and white that people have been forced to act. Yeah, I mean you brought up that court case involving, forgive me, what was the name?

Solomon Turk, who was charged, yes, with misappropriating funds from a Turkish millionaires. Right. I mean, your book is packed full of all sorts of people. Some deeply dubious, some superficially, apparently entirely upstanding, all of whom have come into Andrew's orbit. Money appears to have been exchanged one way or the other, and we must keep saying that Andrew Matt Batten, Windsor, denies any wrongdoing. Frankly, I've found it so complicated and at times quite dizzying, trying to keep in. my head everything you have accused him of. But what would appear to be clear is that he is certainly being accused of using that trade envoy role to line his own pockets. He denies it, but that would be a simple way of summing up what he's been up to. Yes, I mean, I think it's pretty clear from the Epstein revelations. I mean, we've seen him, for example, passing on information

about RBS to people during the banking crisis, information to the Roland's family who were buying an Atlantic bank during the Atlantic banking crisis. You know, time and time again, he's passing either sensitive diplomatic or commercial information to people who are basically bankrolling him and his wife. And, you know, as I say, there's the case, for example, of him taking a $5 million commission for introducing a Greek water company in Kazakhstan, you know, nothing to do with promoting British trade. And I talked to countless diplomats who said, you know, had a whole list of people who

wanted to see who we felt were not appropriate for him to see. He did his business out of the embassy, didn't stay at the residence, because this allowed him to set up his separate meetings. And one of the things I've been very keen to get, and I haven't got this from FOI over the last five years, is a list of who were on these trips. Because if we knew that Epstein was on these trips and David Stern and all the others at Rollins, I think we would have some evidence that perhaps they shouldn't have been on these trips. And the government have used every possible exemption, they could, everything from health and safety to national security, to not let one see who was actually what should be in the court circular. Right. I mean, you say the government,

you mean the current government, of course many previous governments were in office, Tory governments during the time that Andrew served as a trade envoy. Absolutely. This is a problem that goes back for 25 years. Right. And we now know that his late mother, a much admired woman, and constantly described in just about every royal book I've ever read, as very wise. was in fact totally, completely unable to see that Andrew was worse than a rogue. Yeah, I mean, we saw it with Margaret Thatcher and Mark Thatcher. I mean, there was a blind spot there,

and, you know, the Queen put her family ahead of the monarchy, and I think the big mystery to me is why Prince Philip didn't put his foot down. I mean, there's, I think, a very revealing story in the paperback where Andrew kicks a dog in the head. Everyone seems upset about the poor dog, but actually the story here is that no one in the royal family's story. scolded, Andrew. It was someone who had guessed at the shoot who did so. And then the royal family said, thank you very much for ticking him off. He needs it. But why aren't they doing this?

And this remains the problem. Yes. I mean, Prince Philip is an interesting figure. I do wonder in some ways whether all other royal writers, with the exception of yourself, are just guilty of the sin of omission in writing books, which on the whole painted the marriage of the Queen and Prince Philip has, you know, occasionally a little, you know, they'd have the odd ding-dong, but nothing at all to see here, are married for decades. But in fact, in the very first sentence of entitled, do you tell us about an affair that Prince Philip is supposed to have had? Yeah, well, I think the problem is, most of the royal writers, you know, rely on access to the palace and the comms team for information. And so they have to kind of tow the line.

I'm a complete outsider. I come up the sort of the sides, and I go for all the people on the periphery. So I don't have any of these obligations. I'm not, I don't work as a journalist. So I'm freer to tell the stories as I find them. And it seems to me my job as a biographer is to try and tell as far as I can the truth about what happened. And if people don't like it, I'm afraid you know, we can't sugarcoat people just because people think that someone is wonderful. But the idea that Prince Philip might be the right person to take Andrew in hand, based on what we know of Prince Philip in your book, well, that's just preposterous. Well, I mean, he was quite firm and he did give Andrew quite a hard time.

There was a time in Edinburgh where Andrew was playing all the golf courses rather than doing his public duties. And Philip did step in and give him a hard time. So it did happen occasionally. And I remember speaking in Dorset and saying that Andrew had no boundaries as a child. And a little lady put her hand up and said, I was his nanny in the 1960s. And we did have boundaries. Right. Okay. What sort of boundaries? Well, clearly, not one sort of lasted.

Right. Can we talk about Sarah Ferguson because she is endlessly fascinating in any number of ways. And you do say in the book, and I was struck by this, that she has some redeeming features. Andrew doesn't appear to have any, really. But Sarah is not a wholly bad individual. I suppose nobody is actually. No, absolutely. And I want the book to be as fair and balanced as it could. I actually reached out to her and had a meeting with her and her PR people at the beginning to let her help shape the narrative. How long ago was this? Well, the day I saw was the day that actually Andrews settled with Virginia Giffrey, so February 22. So right at the beginning, I mean, I was already getting letters threatening me from her lawyers. But I said, I'm not tabloid journalist, I want this to be as fair as possible.

And here is your opportunity to present your side of the case. And in the end, she didn't want that to happen. She actually told people not to talk to me. But absolutely. I mean, she has this terrific empathy with disadvantaged children, which her parents as Diana had. She's very loyal to her friends, very thoughtful and considerate. She's actually, I can say, from having met her very charismatic and fun. And I think she started off well, and I think the problem was she got corrupted by the system.

You know, I think Paul Burrell has a line, you know, she got into the sweetie shop and she just got carried away. She was somebody who'd had a pretty dysfunctional adolescence and childhood as well. But when you met her, did she give the impression that she was in a, quote, good place? I mean, 2022 can't have been the easiest year for her in the circumstances. No, she was, I would have said, pretty positive. And she seemed engaged and ready to cooperate. So I didn't get any sense of this. But talking to members of her staff, I mean, she is a sort of Jekyll and Hyde character.

She's very emotionally manipulative. She plays people off against each other's. She veers from one extreme to the other. She has very low self-esteem. And, you know, I think the problem was the two of them coming together was not perhaps the perfect match. It's not the happiest divorce couple ever. No, no, that was something they used pretty effectively, didn't they? They were, apparently, according to them, the happiest divorce couple in the world.

Where is she? Well, I wish I knew. I mean, who knows? I mean, it's an extraordinary Houdini act. And, I mean, she will have to appear at some point. I understand that she was negotiating deals and I'm sure she will get deals and she's made so many comebacks

that she makes Danny LaRue look like nothing so I think she will pop back and she will do some confessional interview with someone and she will have lots of good stories about Princess Diana and how much the queen loved her and how the corgis are

passing on the latest and the public will probably eventually will forgive her do you think that's true though if she doesn't as part of that confessional actually go to the police, which she's been asked to do, talk

properly about what her ex-husband may or may not have done? Yes, I mean, I think if she was sensible, she would be talking both to the Senate, because she's a material witness, I mean, she was a regular visitor at Epstein's homes, in fact, staying in Epstein's homes long after she claimed to have cut

off all contact. But absolutely, and she should be making self-filled with the police, I'm surprised that when the police did their in February that they didn't make raids on others. I mean, clearly difficult to find her, but I'm sure the police know where she is. But there's so many people involved in this case who know what was happening.

And I find it extraordinary that, you know, there hasn't been questioning elsewhere. It's only focused on Andrew. Yeah, I mean, it would be also ironic and sadly ironic, Andrew, if it was another woman who was to take the case on. If it was Sarah Ferguson, who appeared in front of the Senate,

went to the police, spoke to whoever it is she needs to speak to, it does need to be the men, doesn't it? Well, absolutely. And we've had a few men subpoenaed in the States, but not really any serious questioning. And I understand that some of the co-conspirators have basically done deals with the DOJ,

so that's why they're not there. But yeah, I mean, we can only hope that the police do their job and people are found, and the American authorities do their job. I mean, the problem is, shall we say, generously, dragging their feet on this issue, only a small percentage of the fact.

files have been released. And we're really placing our hope in the victims coming forward and perhaps giving testimony. What does Andrew do all day? Can you paint a picture? Well, he does basically what he's always done, which is to slob out in front of a television and do flight simulation games, landing planes. He used to go riding, which he can't do now. I mean, he still goes up for his walks with his dogs. He can't shoot now. I suspect he's spending a lot of time talking to lawyers. I think a lot of his friends have kind of abandoned him. And so it must be a very lonely life. And I think I do feel sorry for him.

I mean, he is a loner by nature. And someone who's never really learned to trust people, going right back to prep school when people betrayed confidences and told stories about him to the press. So it's a sad life. We played him as this was Randy Andy and this Lothario. But actually, he's a rather pathetic human being. Right.

I've got that. I hesitate to really feel sympathy towards him, but you've almost made me feel that, actually. And you mentioned the notion of complicity earlier on in the conversation. This is the real challenge for the Royal Family, isn't it? The idea that they can go on a visit doing all those sometimes very dull, good works, those appearances that still mean a great deal to some individuals, actually. And there'll be somebody at the back of the crowd hurling abuse and asking,

what do you know and how long have you know? What do they do about that? Well, they address it. I think there's no longer the strategy of never explaining. never complain works. I mean, I think there's quite a lot of public outrage, there's a lot of pressure from social media. The press, I think, are a bit more emboldened. I mean, we no longer just have the mainstream press, but we have substack and podcasts, people like this, who are raising all sorts of questions. And the problem isn't going to go away. I mean, in many ways, this is a problem

of their own making. If they had addressed this problem earlier, even in last October, not allowed Andrew to make that statement, but the king had stepped in at that stage and being ruthless, I think we wouldn't now have wider questions about accountability and privilege. And they could have nipped this thing in the bud. So I just find it extraordinary. You know, this is a sort of me-to moment for the monarchy. This is a moment where they can kind of grow up and be part of the 21st century. But to somehow excuse this behaviour by silence, I don't think it's going to wash any longer.

It's interesting that we are sometimes told that it's William, Prince of Wales, who is pushing the anti-Andrew agenda in the royal family. Isn't Camilla also quite significant here? Yes, I understand that she is and Catherine as well. I mean, I think as an outsider, they can see the reputational damage. And it's William, in since he's going to have to inherit this problem. You know, the queen passed the buck to the king. And in some ways, you know, the king has to address it.

This is, you know, his legacy will be how he deals with Andrew. And it may be he has to bite the bullet and accept some of the blame and to say there's been a bit of a cover-up. And to leave the slate clean for William. Otherwise, the problem just continues from one reign to the other. Well, Giselle Pelico was on the programme yesterday, and she is so terrifically proud of the fact that Camilla had reached out to her, had sent her a letter of support.

I think Camilla has been out wearing a badge that is Giselle Pelico supporter badge. There's no way that the Queen can want to be associated with Giselle Pelico and be prepared for one nanosecond to tolerate the behavior of her brother-in-law? Yeah, well, absolutely, and this is the problem they've got, you know, that they, and I suspect the king does listen to her. So we may see something happening, things may be going on behind the scenes. But I think, you know, we have got wider questions now about, for example, the secretiveness of royal finances, and this is an opportunity to kind of rebuild trust and respect for the monarchy.

You know, they've lost their moral authority, and this is, there are lots of things that they could do even quite separate from Andrew, to bring back the sense that they operate for us and not for themselves. Yeah, the public, some of them like you, as you know, Ellen says this man, he is brave beyond call, but he does need to mind his back. Other people say, frankly, you have an agenda, you say, I know you say you don't have one, but some people, here's Andrew, he's not some kind of genuine truth-teller, I think his claims are without evidence or unprovable. Well, I mean, this is the first book I've done

which is based on interviews role in documents. And I think the thing that people have always praised me for is meticulous research. Everything in this book is even double-sourced. I mean, every statement is backed up. I wouldn't be able to get it through the lawyers. And I think that's why it's been taken seriously. I'm a former Conservative Party candidate.

I'm served in the Navy. I have shown no interest in the royal family, to be honest, until I moved on to these books. And I keep stressing that I am, like John Grigg was in the 50s, an honest friend of the monarchy, saying that they are undermining the good work of the other members of the royal family unless they deal with this. And the monarchy cannot survive, you know,

with this sort of scandal being left undelt with. Do you have to mind your back, though? I mean, you presumably are almost part of the establishment. You're a well-to-do gentleman, a connected. gentlemen, what is the fallout for you in writing this book? Oh, well, I mean, a lot of people have turned their backs on me. A lot of people have criticized me as an attempt to discredit me as historian. People, I mean, we've had problems, all sorts of problems connected with the book, invitations

withdrawn. It's the price you pay for, you know, I just feel historians need to tell the truth about the past. I have no agenda except to tell the truth. And I, you know, have actually debated. in favour of the monarchy. So this idea of painting me, as people have done, as a Republican and Marxist, is based on no evidence whatsoever. And just because people don't want to believe what I'm finding doesn't mean it isn't true. Yeah, I mean I wonder whether there is, there's probably a lot of truth in what you said there. Some people simply don't want to believe this, because lots of

us have grown up, rather fond of the magic of the monarchy. And here you are, daring to suggest that the Queen and Prince Philip were not entirely happy. I can't believe it. And obviously, much, much more seriously, the stuff about Andrew, some of the accusations in the book are mind-boggling. Yeah, the accusations are not new. I mean, they appear, I mean, clearly in the Epstein revelations that have come out. I mean, they've pretty much confirmed everything I wrote. A lot of the stuff there that people are saying is new, actually, is in the book. But also, I mean, it's been reported in the papers for years. You know, I can't claim to have found a lot of the stuff. All I've done is collected it and put it together.

You're right about that. I mean, the hiding in plain sight thing is really significant here, isn't it? Yeah, I think what's interesting is I had access to paper cuts and this story has been going on. I mean, Andrew has been a menace since the 1980s. We've forgotten that. And I think this is, you know, the journalism, you know, literally is

fish and chips tomorrow and everyone forgets and moves on. But I don't think we can really I mean, all my books are about how there's a curated narrative that's shaped by rich and powerful people. And the role of the writer of the journalist's historian is to try and dig into that.

and just try and create what is true rather than what is myth. That is Andrew Loney, author of Entitled, Out Now in Paperback. I think that interview hopefully would have tickled your taste buds and will make sure that you canter out your local independent bookstore, if possible, and purchase that book. It is a peculiarity of the landed gentry and above classes that a name won't be pronounced as it looks, isn't it? the kind of

chumly chumly and you don't say dalrymple you have to say derrimple de rimple yep and I think it's the same

Why would I even say it? Farquasson there's something else altogether so if you could change the pronunciation of your name simply for effect how would you do that I think this is right

that a lot of people whose surname is onions change it to anion Enions. Yeah. Add a little apostrophe. Gave. Gave.

So I think that's good. So you can be Gavei and I will be Gavre. Gavre. Gavre. G lover. Okay, that's nice. Off we will sail merrily towards the sunny west-facing drawing room on the first floor of Offair Abbey.

Surely towers, I think. Off-air towers. Yeah. Yeah, maybe you're right. Okay, well, many thanks for whatever that was. Keep your emails coming. Despite the heat, we do welcome your involvement. It seems to be slightly cooler in London today.

I mean, not much. But wherever you are, hope you're doing all right. Goodbye. Jane and Fee at times. Radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday.

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