Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Saint George was a bit of a tart (with Salman Rushdie)

Episode Date: April 23, 2024

Jane and Fi are putting the big question into Bing so you don't have to.. After that, they discuss Freedom Passes, naturism and spitting. Plus, they're joined by best-selling author Salman Rushdie to discuss his new memoir 'Knife'. You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

They feel, oh, I can pay. And I suppose you could. That argument is a reasonable one. That's all right. And indeed, I could pay. But you won't. Oh, fit. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar.

Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Oh, God, I'd completely forgotten. Ian Dale messaged me about poor old Vera. I know, it's over. I can't believe it.

It's over, but I think, wouldn't you agree, it's been over for a while? No! Oh. She's a sprightly 78. Oh, no, I don't. No, I'm not casting any aspersions on Brenda Blethen but I think that the writing of it

has just not been fabulous for a while because that's partly because they're not using Anne Cleave's stories are they no and because there's just no backstory because there was that really lovely backstory developing of her that she might have a child

no a strange stepsister. You know, sister by another... Oh, this is to do with the aristocratic link that she had. Yes, another mother might have had a child whose life she might have got involved in. I thought that was going to develop into something really meaningful and it never did.

Oh, I think you've understood some of the plot rather more than I have. Well, do you remember at the end of one episode, ages ago, you know, back in kind of season three out of 20, at the end, and there had been this kind of developing plot, she went to hang a bag of kind of cuddly toys and kids' gifts on somebody's front door, I think in Jesmond? Oh, well, right.

And the suggestion was it was a relative. Okay. Yeah. Well, look, I tell you what, if you can't remember, then you're blessed, because you can just go back and watch them all over again. If you haven't just joined us, or if you just gradually find your eyes closing,

we are talking about... Vera. Vera, the seminal work provided by ITV Drama starring Brenda Blethen as the aforementioned lady detective in a distinctive Mac. Lived in the countryside in a beautiful, slightly ramshackle house. Right up on the northeast coast. Did her own thing, ploughed her own furrow and was ageless, essentially, Vera. She solved everything.

She had a canny knack of knowing who'd done what to whom and she was certainly always ahead of me, which, in fairness, doesn't take a lot. Anyway, broadcaster Ian Dale messaged me first thing this morning to say that he did expect that I would do my Vera impersonation on off-air today today so here we go. Kenny! That's it!

Well that is it, yeah. And I think that takes everybody. I think there was more of an order to Kenny. Well that was it. No, no, but you used to tell him to do something, didn't you? Or was it just Kenny? You pursue that line of inquiry, Kenny. That's terrible. I think it transports people instantly to the wilds of glorious Northumberland.

Yeah. Now, I'm going to miss Brenda and I'm going to miss the show. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps it was time. Funnily enough, I was in the bath last night listening to, we shouldn't give the man any more publicity, but that broadcaster I've just mentioned. And, you know, a couple of months ago,

there was all this stuff about how often men think about the Roman Empire. Yes, it was about once every three seconds. It was so peculiar. Just bizarre. And your thoughts on that are still welcome. I suddenly, suddenly sat bolt up right in the bath and thought, did the Romans invade Ireland? And when you look on...

Are you turning into a man? I might be. You can't make jokes like that anymore. I got out of the bath and obviously I looked up on Bing and... Am I a man? No.

Did the Romans... And if you put in one of those search engines did the Romans invade... I'm sorry, can I just stop you there? You're so right on, sister. Did you really use Bing? I looked up on one of those search engines. And if you type in, did the Romans invade,

the first place that comes up is Ireland. Okay, but that's probably to do with your algorithm, isn't it? Because if you were doing that search in Germany, it would probably be Stuttgart. Aren't all those searches to do with what you've searched before? This is why you shouldn't trust any of these

search engines. Because I could pretty much guarantee, I might run and get my phone just for fun, because I pretty much guarantee that if I... Talk about me losing the plot. She's sitting there with it She's totally addicted Right, so what was your search?

Did the Romans invade... Okay, hang on Anyway, the answer is Nobody seemed terribly sure So there sort of might be some evidence that they did They certainly knew it existed But they didn't conquer it. So I get Scotland.

Oh. Yep, did the Romans conquer Scotland? Not invade, conquer. Okay. So that may say something different. Well, isn't it true that actually the Romans created Scotland and created the Scot by building Hadrian's Wall? By building the wall.

Yeah, because before that we were one big happy family. Very much so. Everyone got on. It's well known. Oh, yes. There were no fights. As the burial sites prove. Now, we've got a very strange smell that's just invaded us.

You're absolutely right. We need to say this is an ongoing situation here. Can you not smell it? Yes, we can all smell it. It's horrible. And if it's lunch, I don't want to have lunch here. It's chicken. You think it's roast chicken with pigs in blankets?

Well, I know that's what it is, but whether that's what the smell is, I don't know. Okay, it's rather unpleasant, isn't it? What happens in the piping in this building that we suddenly get a waft of lunch? I mean, I should say it is lunchtime, which is making this whole thing very challenging. Anyway, it is the feast day of the patron saint of lunch. I mean, I should say it is lunchtime, which is making this whole thing very challenging. Anyway, it is the feast day of the patron saint of Aldi England, St George. So to

everyone celebrating, I always find it very funny every time St George's Day rolls around, but there are endless discussions on radio and in the media about why we do nothing to celebrate St George's Day. And we spend such a lot of time talking about why we don't celebrate it that we actually do mark it. It's part of the tradition now of St George's Day is that we agonise about why we don't really mark St George's Day. OK. So we've got our own traditional way of just naming the day

and getting through it. That's a very good point. Do you celebrate at home? No. I mean, I was listening to a couple of discussions about whether or not we needed a minister for flags. Do we? I'm just doing some inhalation here, some deep breathing.

I think that would help. I think this is what Britain's lacked for quite some time. And I just, I really, no. I won't be doing anything today. Actually, what should I be doing? I think this is where we struggle because St George is, obviously he killed a dragon, which is a wonderful and very brave thing to have done.

And he wasn't English. I think he was either Greek or Turkish. And we're very lucky to have him. But I don't think he's, he's a bit of a tart because I think he's actually the patron saint of quite a few other countries as well. Is yeah I know so you can't trust him as far as you could throw him some of these men get around don't we know don't we know it and that's just in this building uh right let's talk about Julia who sent us a lovely selection of gifts

Julia sent us some very very fine mugs that are a little bit cheeky she says she's so giddy that we're going to Sheffield it feels she says like I'm going to meet long lost friends then she slightly ruins it by saying I think this makes me a sad arse but never mind well Julia I mean have faith in your emotions and yes we're delighted that you feel that way aren't we yeah and come and say hello properly yeah and I love my mug I've taken home gobshite because i thought that was appropriate um we have divided the others

amongst the team and um they are a bit rude so those members of the team who have little people in the household they're not allowed to take a mug home but i don't care anymore about my kids so i'm happy to embrace gobshite they can take a mug home up until the point of reading emerges and then they're going to have to hide it somewhere in the back of a dark cupboard. The fact that I've now got a mug with gobshite on it, it won't excite any questions from the other residents of my home. So do we know whether or not this is actually Julia's business? She says she has a tiny weenie company in Sheffield and designs these for a

living. Given the number of fitting recipients, many of whom you shine a light on in your podcast, it should be a corporate giant. Sadly, it isn't, but I have fun along the way, she says. Does she name the company? No, it's not Headed Paper or whatever, which, and you don't have to have Headed Paper, Julia, at all. Oh, I think it's good if you do. Would it be thermo-raised? Yes, I would very much hope so. I can't go to a wedding unless it's a thermo-raised invitation. We'll get on to weddings in a minute.

Julia, thank you. Yes, let's find out the name because we can name check because we're not in the old place, are we? And honestly, these are mugs that a lot of people would... Yeah, they are very, very good quality, aren't they? They're very good quality mugs with rude words upon them. But honestly, I think people would like to know Julia. And Julia's coming to the live show on May 31st with her best mate, Sonia.

They're going to be in row... It's either 8 or 11. OK, so quite close. Give us a double wave. Yes, don't throw us a mug. If anybody else would like to come, it's the CrossWires Podcast Festival. But if you buy a ticket to us, it doesn't mean that you have to go

and see lots of other people at all. You can just come and see us if you like. But there are loads of other podcast people. It's a fantastic line-up. It's really good names, actually. So you can spend the whole weekend there just seeing joyful people. I was going to say like John Ronson,

but he's on at the same time as us, so you can't. Forget him completely. Yeah. He's nothing to us uh and it is what's the matter and he'll be on the show in tune and we love him very much oh yes we like we're enormous fans but we don't want people to go and see him not us really he's probably saying the same thing on one of his very intellectual podcasts he's probably pausing to say don don't go and see Jane and Fee. Stick with this. Yeah, he'll definitely be saying that. No, we love John, but he

is scheduled against us. And it's May the 31st and if you just type in crossed wires to any of your search engines, is that what we're now saying? Yes, Bing and the other lesser known ones. And I think we should also ask Jeeves very much.

So then you'll be able to book your tickets there. So it'd be lovely to see you. We'll have a very good fun evening. We've had loads and loads of stuff about weddings, haven't we? And of course, there's no right or wrong answer to this. But if you're a person who's slightly struggling with whether or not to invite your whole family to a wedding or you've been rather hurt by not being invited

to your children's weddings, then I hope that some of these experiences might ring true with you and just settle something in yourself. This one comes from, I think I'm going to allow you to remain anonymous just because then I can read the whole email, which does detail something you'll really weed off about with your husband's family so here we go picture the scene it was March 2020

weeks away from our London wedding with everything planned and paid for unbeknownst to friends and family at this point I was also approaching three months pregnant with what I thought would be our first baby but within a week at the end of March, we were told our baby had no heartbeat and in fact was a molar pregnancy. And we were also forced to call off the wedding because of COVID. I felt robbed. Life went from a feeling of having everything

to having nothing at all. And my mental health followed suit. After months of lockdown, of moving in my parents and husband-to-be, I think that's with my parents and husband-to-be, and of weekly hospital visits through COVID times to test for HCG levels after a molar pregnancy, my husband and I decided to reclaim some of our year in the autumn. So we snuck off and got married in October in the lockdown,

not quite lockdown, in-betweeny era. We had two guests. One was our prepaid photographer and another was an unexpecting self-employed friend who we knew lived nearby and worked from home. We didn't tell anyone because how could we tell some family but not all family? And if we told all then some would insist on coming

whilst others would be restricted with shielding and other factors in play. So we kept it a secret. But when we told our families, my parents were just happy for us and my family didn't make it all about them. But my husband's family, namely his sister, 14 years older, really did.

This makes me annoyed to this day as I really can't see how anyone can feel so self-centred to make someone else's wedding all about them. So I really feel for you what a horrible, horrible series of whammies led to your decision to have a very secret wedding and good on you. And also because I think in those kind of situations, if you have a big wedding, isn't it always going to remind you of the wedding that you should have had at a different time so I completely and utterly get that just just to say actually that that that awful experience that our correspondent

has been through that's one of those stories of Covid that we're in danger of just forgetting some people got through it okay and I think you and I would say we had a pretty lucky experience of Covid and a relatively good and peaceful lockdown. But stuff like that was going on everywhere. And I feel so sorry for those people who just had so many challenges of very many different sorts. And they're still getting over it. Perhaps they'll never completely get over it. So I really hope things have calmed down for

you and things are okay and also i just hope at some stage that your sister-in-law um maybe comes to realize that laying something on you about guilt or disappointment is perhaps just a tad unfair we'd all like every wedding in the family to be a glorious wonderful you know shebang of self-indulgence. But there are so many different things at play, especially with blended families now. You know, I think we just have to be so forgiving of the fact that that whole, whole thing is a very, very rare treat for some people. It's not most people's experience of life anymore, is it? It really isn't.

Could I just add one tiny thing at the bottom? Because our correspondent does go on to say, I haven't got anything to add about spit or saliva. Only that Lottie's story of being spat on is one up by a friend of mine who had a cup of pee chucked over her when they were at a music festival. It's a thing. Again, an absolutely disgusting thing that only men do in crowds when they can't be bothered to go and queue up for the loos.

Isn't that terrible and she also as a nine-year-old girl used to have a boxy black leather most likely faux briefcase with a six digit lock mechanism yep and she says i'm not sure but astonishingly i didn't get bullied for this and i remember how satisfying i found the pen holder and assorted letter compartments for different size papers. Oh how wonderfully satisfying. Yeah it's a very it's actually a very very satisfying email. There are a couple of other conversations in there which I might save for another time particularly about 50 being the new 30 or 30 being the new 50. Well we find out today that the age at which you become elderly is now 74. So I've got years. I'm not waiting that long. I'm not waiting that long. What? I don't want to wait that long to be elderly

you'll be sitting there with your little foot muff around you watching Countdown I want to start doing that when I'm 60 do you? I do God have I got to start that in June somebody sent in some little kind of

PDF snaps about a Freedom Pass so you get yours soon don't you? some little kind of PDF snaps. About a Freedom Pass. About a Freedom Pass. Very helpful. So you get yours soon, don't you? Well, you have to apply for it. Do any certain people get it? I think they do look favourably upon requests from lady broadcasters

who still need to get to their... Do you have a special turnstile? Place of employment. I know some people who don't get the Freedom Pass out of vanity. Oh, that's so stupid. Or they feel, oh, I can pay. And I suppose you could. That argument is a reasonable one.

That's all right. And indeed, I could pay. But you won't. Now, we should say we have a very serious guest today. It couldn't really be any more serious. And that is one of the glories of our job, is that we get to talk about the utterly trivial, but not insignificant.

I don't for one minute think this weddings thing is entirely trivial. No, but briefcases probably. Briefcases, yeah. My freedom pass, yes. Anyway, today's guest is Salman Rushdie, coming up relatively soon. But there have been so many thoughtful emails about weddings and we are going to do an email special very soon because we've had so many brilliant bits of correspondence from you over the last couple of weeks. This is from someone who says, I eloped 16 years ago and it still feels like one of the best decisions

we've ever made. I was 38 when I got married and felt like I'd lived through so many colleagues' weddings and every excruciating detail like the ribbon on the bridesmaid's dresses. Well, it's not olive, but it's not lime coloured, etc.

I didn't want to be a princess for a day and then spend tens of thousands of dollars for just a couple of hours. We didn't have a load of money, but probably could have afforded something if that was our financial priority. His parents live in Perth. That's five hours away.

And my parents are in Dubai. That's a 14-hour flight away. We called them that evening and told them and emailed our friends the next day. My parents never expressed any disappointment if they did feel it i think his parents were probably sad not to be there and certainly some of his friends expressed and still express that sentiment we now have a daughter of 14 and constantly tell her she can do whatever

she likes for her wedding and i have no concerns at all if she chooses to elope to be brutally honest if she said she wanted a big do, I think I'd be secretly a bit disappointed. Right. That's the thing with kids, though. They can just deliberately go against what they've been brought up to believe. Julia is in Brisbane, who says

I'm still listening between four and five in the morning when your episode first drops in Australia. Oh, we know Julia. Yeah. She's one of our ultimate Australian correspondents. Well, yeah. the morning when your episode first drops in australia we know we know julia yeah she's she's one of our ultimate australian correspondents well yeah thank you for getting in touch again and i just want to mention this um rather brutal but pithy final paragraph from uh amy's email um i've really appreciated hearing other people's experiences she says she herself is getting married in September,

especially those of parents, as it's helped me to understand where mine are coming from. But when it comes down to it, this is the kicker, would people rather their kids do something just to please them rather than what they actually want to do? Well, I think you just have to be very honest when you answer that question, because I think I know a lot of people who do view parenthood or some parts of parenthood through the, this is how I'd like it to happen. This is what I want it to be.

Yes, I think, gosh, it's a difficult one. I think, oh gosh, it's a difficult one. So this one is just the complete, I mean, it's about exactly the same thing. Someone who wishes to remain anonymous, who says, I've never enjoyed being the centre of attention or being one for much fuss. It's just not me.

My partner and I plan to marry in a very intimate ceremony with just us, the children and a couple of witnesses. I told my mum this is the way we'd like to get married. And so we'd most likely tell close family after it had happened and she told me that if that's what makes me happy then she couldn't be happier for me and as a child there's no greater feeling than hearing a parent say that to you and knowing, really knowing that they mean it

this has always been an inspiration to me and the way I hope to raise my children I try and catch myself every time I think about the careers they might have, the things they might do, the people they might love. That's not for me to project onto them or carry any expectations over. Ultimately, I really do want to be able to say, Amin, if you're happy, I'm happy. And, yeah, I think...

I mean, that is what we should all be doing. But do you know what? I heard a couple of people, and I won't say what nationality they were discussing, were young people they were in a restaurant next door to us over the weekend they had such loud i mean really really astonishingly loud belligerent voices they managed to hold a conversation for an hour and a half that just went nowhere it was just it was it was about things that were just infinitesimally small and connected to themselves and their own feelings. It didn't broaden out at any juncture.

And, you know, we had to endure it because their voices were so loud. And I did find myself thinking, I really hope my children don't marry people like that. So there you go. You should have recorded it and taken it home and then played it to your kiddies so they could be warned. It was just mind-boggling to me. Were they a couple or just a couple of friends?

They were a couple of friends. And, you know, maybe you and I back in our 20s would have had that kind of conversation. I like to think we would have broadened it out with some mention of cant. Breath. Oh, no, I mean, of course we would have had exactly that type of conversation That's what young people are

But it was the intonation And there was a lot of so totally like So totally like I think I'm beginning to pinpoint the nationality Like, like, like Probably not from Northumberland Like Alright

That's a little bit like my Vera impersonation, though not as good. Now on to the subject of spitting. That was a very slick way of introducing a new topic. I'm a Brit Aussie and I married a Canadian later in life. That's the opening line of something, isn't it? It is. It really is.

Dear reader. I was not brought up with the culture of ice hockey. The first time I went to a game. What? Were you brought up with the culture of ice hockey? Well, then why are you laughing? The first time I went to a game, I couldn't get past the extreme amount of spitting that goes on on the benches by the players waiting to go on. It's disgusting. Instead of watching the game, I'm fixated on this extremely unhygienic and prolific activity. Just put on any NHL game and you'll see it loud and clear. I can't imagine what the floor looks like where they're sitting. Then they jump over the barrier and skate it all over the ice.

Ooh. God, I suppose it freezes. I asked my husband at what age the kids are allowed to start hawking and gobbing on the floor of their local ice rink when they play hockey, and he said he didn't know. He also said he didn't know at what age they're allowed to start fighting other players, as that's definitely an accepted part of the game as well. There are even specific rules for fighting, such as no gloves and no sticks,

keep your helmet on, etc. But they are allowed to fight. Before Covid, they all shared water bottles as well. Don't get me started. There's about 30 people on each team. Luckily, I believe that has changed since Covid. Name an address withheld, as I need a Canadian visa this coming summer. OK.

We always think of Canada as a rather benign place, don't we? I had no idea. Full of well-mannered people. It had an issue with spitting. But our footballers spit a lot too, don't they? Do you think so? But you think the ice hockey people are spitting more? Well, clearly it's more of a problem, I'm going to say.

Well, obviously, I think we can almost... There's an explanation. I mean, I don't know. I've never done it because I've never played a professional have you not no although i did surprises today jane susan the under 14s ping pong tournament at my school i'm just saying that did happen it's not a figment of my imagination i used to go in early to practice anyway um i think my hormones probably kicked in a bit later than a lot of other girls. Maybe.

But you didn't spit during that. I didn't spit. That's not where this story's going. If you're running around a pitch, I can understand. But she's pointing out, our anonymous Canadian correspondent, that they're doing it just as they wait to go on. They're sitting down. I mean, what can possibly be the excuse there?

I don't know. I don't know. I'm sorry, Canada. Do better. Now, shall we just get through Asparagus Day and Morris Dancing? And this will be the last mention of Morris Dancing, just because we feel the need to move on ourselves, don't we? But this is just an absolute corker of an email.

It comes from Jules who says didn't know if you knew it was asparagus day. Very random neither did I even know there was such a thing. Can I just say, do you like asparagus? I love asparagus. I mean I think there's quite a lot of fuss and the Vale of Evesham is a very famous asparagus

growing area. So when I did my local radio we did a lot of asparagus at this time of year. Features. And I really, I'm sorry to say, I don't rate it at all. How are you cooking it? Probably badly. Boiling it or steaming it? Steaming it. I like to steam.

Do you like to steam? See, I think steaming it, I think that actually takes the taste away. I think a little bit of asparagus fried in a bit of butter is a wonderful thing. Really wonderful thing. So yes, I really, really, really like

it. And also, it's just that funny thing, isn't it? Because then you do play a slight game with yourself, don't you? How many weeks later the asparagus emerges. Oh, how many wheeze later. Yeah, put as a fragrance. Because sometimes it goes through you incredibly quickly.

You can literally get up from the same table that you've been having the asparagus as your meal, go for a wee, and there it is. What is it? It's a diuretic. Is that what diuretic means? Oh, I don't know. No, I don't think it's a diuretic, but the smell carries through, doesn't it? That's what's weird about it. For God's sake.

No, it's fascinating. Isn't it funny how some things, sweet the smell carries through, doesn't it? That's what's weird about it. For God's sake. No, it's fascinating. Isn't it funny how some things, sweet corn, asparagus, tomato seeds. Yeah, and beetroot stains your wee as well, doesn't it? It does. I'm sorry. Revolting little thing, beetroot. Stop it.

Oh, no, I love beetroot too. Right, this will be the last email because Eve's getting a little bit fed up with the mention of vegetables. She's in her 20s. Right, here we go. So Jules lives in glorious Devon, This will be the last email because Eve's getting a little bit fed up with the mention of vegetables. She's in her 20s. Right, here we go. So Jules lives in glorious Devon, relatively near Veg Growing Farm.

Sorry to say I had Radio 2 on this morning. I know. But I need to wake up with a few tunes to start my day and catch up on news, etc. Promises my only time is fortunate enough to have a driving job and can listen to you both religiously from 3pm. That's the spirit, Jules. The topic today mentioned the above, and in doing so, interviewed a seven

foot man called Gus, who dresses as an asparagus for eight weeks. Lovely man, but still can't quite get that image out of my head this morning, as he also discussed the celebration involved lots of Morris dancing. I'm not a fan, only because

it was a thing at school along with the Maypole and I vividly remember the Silver Jubilee. The head teacher of the Maypole will always be an odd person in my book only because I have very naturist loving parents. This is where the email from Very Good becomes quite brilliant. It is amazing,

which I grew up with and to be honest, helped me in future years to be body confident. The biggest issue for me, though, is this particular teacher also loved this way of life. And even though we would travel a vast distance to fulfil my parents' choice of beach days out,

we not only happened to see this particular teacher, which, I'm honest, would have been enough to scar me for life, but he quite happily stood with hands on hips, talking with my mother, who was incredibly embarrassed for the intrusion pause for effect i did always feel the need at that age to cover up thankfully and disappeared into the sea pretending i was too warm school days were never quite the same and morris dancing for me now has a tinge and unfortunate image i just can't shake so imagine that so your parents are driving miles and miles to avoid the embarrassment of bumping into people that you know

and along comes hand on hips teacher in the nude just standing around having a chat that's wrong jane is wrong That correspondent is 53, describes herself as an all-round sea swimmer. I was surprised you ever came back onto land. Yeah, after that. So we assume that incident took place, what, in the early 80s or late 70s? Yeah, I think if you remember the Silver Jubilee very vividly, then you're kind of our age, aren't you? She's 53.

She's 53, so your age. Increasingly, I see myself as from a whole different generation. But I don't think that would... Would that happen now? I don't know, Jane. No, I think it would be really, really, really problematic. Yeah, deeply problematic. And, I mean, the thing is, it was problematic then.

It's just there wasn't anybody around to go, no, that's really wrong. Yeah. You know, I just... Oh, it was problematic then. It's just there wasn't anybody around to go, no, that's really wrong. Yeah. You know, I just, oh, I don't know. So this is another can of worms, don't titter. But I slightly don't get the naturist thing. No, I think there's general agreement that at the sight of anyone with no clothes on,

first of all, you can't stand there with your hands on your hips and no clothes on because it doesn't matter whether you're female, male, whatever you are, you're going to look ridiculous. Because also it suggests either authority or I'm being really casual. I'm just standing here with everything on display. I've got my hands on my hips. Nothing to see here, except there is. I don't get it.

No, I don't get naturism either. Let's put that out there. Please help us understand naturism. What is the appeal? And are we being a little bit carry-on with our approach to it? Again, that's my age group I'm talking about here, not young Fi here who doesn't remember the carry-on films at all. She's no idea who Sir James is.

I'll tell her one day. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar.

Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Now, the author Salman Rushdie won the Booker Prize for his 1981 novel, Midnight's Children. That book went on to win the best of the bookers and later something called the Booker of Bookers.

But it isn't actually his most famous work. That is the Satanic Verses, which caused such offence in parts of the Islamic world. It was seen by some as an irreverent depiction of the Prophet Muhammad and some countries banned it. And a few months after it was published, the then Supreme Leader of Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa ordering Rushdie's execution. And between 1989 and 1998, Salman Rushdie was forced to move home 30 times.

Finally, in the August of 2022, Salman was attacked by a young man at a literary event in upstate New York. Miraculously, and it really is miraculous, he survived to write Knife, Meditations After an Attempted Murder. I asked him when he decided he needed to write this. Well, initially I thought I didn't want to, and then I really thought I did. So I had to change my mind about that. For about six months, I really thought I had no interest in writing about it. And then some switch flipped in my head and it became very important to do it. Not exactly as a form of therapy because, you know, I think writing is writing and therapy is therapy. But it was a way for me to feel that I was regaining

some kind of control of the narrative. And that was important to me. You had had a price on your head for decades. I think it's fair to say that at some level, you knew this was coming, didn't you? Well, I knew it for a while and then I forgot it. Because, you know, I've, of course, in the early years after the attack on the Satanic Verses began, I did think about it.

I thought about it quite often, the possibility of an attack. But, you know, I've been living here in New York City for close to 25 years. living here in New York City for close to 25 years. And for the first 23 of those 25 years, life had gone back to normal, you know, and I was doing everything that writers do. I was going on book tours and readings and lectures and, you know, all the stuff that writers get invited to do. And there had never been a hint of any problem. So I guess I had thought it was behind me. And then, unfortunately, it wasn't. Why did you make the decision not to name your attacker at any point in the book? Well, I just didn't want his name in my book.

I thought he's had his 27 seconds of fame and he should go back to being anonymous and forgotten now. his 27 seconds of fame, and he should go back to being anonymous and forgotten now. I was particularly touched by your admission, if you can call it that, that you felt you should have fought back. You seem to have given yourself a really hard time about that. Can you tell me more about it? Yeah, I just felt feeble, you know. I thought somebody comes at you. Why don't you retaliate? And I mean, everybody close to me has said, don't be stupid. You know, you were 75 years old and unarmed and he was 24 with a knife. And what do you think you could have done? Which is probably nothing.

And also it all happened very, very fast, you know, and and before I knew what was going on, I had been attacked, stabbed for the first time, and after that there was no possibility of fighting back. So, yeah, maybe I was a little too hard on myself. I think I'm feeling a little more generous towards myself now. Other people did attempt to come to your aid, didn't they? Yeah, well, not just attempts they they certainly saved my life i mean first of all henry reese who was the other person on stage with

me who's also not a young man he's a man in his 70s but he rushed across the stage and tackled this assailant this armed assailant you you know, and then amazingly, members of the audience from the front of the audience rushed up and helped him and pinned down the attacker and restrained him, you know, subdued him. And if that were not the case, you know, I wouldn't be here to have this conversation. that it occurred, the attack on you, at a very rarefied event. There was nothing about that day that should have made you particularly vulnerable or made you worried about what might happen. No, the Chautauqua Institution is a beautiful place.

It's in western New York, upstate New York State. And it's kind of bucolic and leafy and peaceful and has a long tradition of talks where people talk openly in an atmosphere of conviviality and so on. And I had actually spoken there before, about 10 or 12 years earlier, and it had been a very nice afternoon, and I assumed it would be the same. But this time the attacker had somehow seen some notice of my being part of their summer program of events and used it to plan his attack. He hadn't read the Satanic verses, had he?

No, he hadn't read anything I'd written. I think by his own admission, he read at the most two pages of something I wrote, which I don't even know what two pages. And, you know, the internet is full of garbage. I don't even know if they were two pages by me. And he'd seen a YouTube video or two in which I'd been interviewed. And that appeared to be enough to persuade him to commit murder, which is a big leap for somebody who's never committed a crime before. He didn't kill you, obviously, we don't need to emphasise that. But I mean, you were very, very severely injured. And I confess that until I read the book, I hadn't realised quite how badly

hurt you'd been. Could you just outline the most serious injuries that you had? Well, there were 15 different wounds. And the most serious of them, obviously, was the injury to my eye, which blinded my right eye. But apart from that, there was a big slash wound under my neck. There was a stab wound in my neck on the right side. There were three stab wounds down the center of my torso. There was a quite bad injury to my tongue. I mean, that's just the headlines, you know, but it was a very close thing. My liver was injured.

But it was a very close thing. My liver was injured. Fortunately, my heart was not injured, but it was, as the doctors afterwards said, bruised, whatever that means. And I was also lucky that the wounds in my neck failed to rupture the artery. Otherwise, you know, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Well, were you expected to live? No, I mean, initially. When I was flown by helicopter to the nearest trauma hospital and the doctors said to me later that when I was brought in off the helicopter, they thought it was probably too late. You know, they doubted that they could save my life. And the surgery then took, I don't exactly know, eight, eight and a

half hours, something like that. And fortunately, they proved themselves wrong and they did save my life. Had your wife got to you by then? She got to me before I emerged from the anesthetic. I mean, I'm not sure exactly what point she arrived, but she was rushing up from New York City by plane. And yeah, the attack was in local time, about quarter to 11 a.m. And then by the time the surgery was finished and I was out of the anaesthetic, it was evening.

And she was there by then. And obviously the attack made headlines around the world and you had some very supportive statements from President Biden, President Macron, and the then British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, did say something. I mean, I think you feel that it was slightly grudging. Well, you know, back in the day before he was Prime Minister, at the point that I was awarded my knighthood, he wrote something to the effect that I didn't deserve the knighthood because I

wasn't a good enough writer. So I don't know that it came easily to him to be sympathetic, but he did. So there we are. Yes. And your recovery was long and painful. And I was really struck in the book that you don't shy away from the indignities. You were really very frail and you had an exceptionally tough time. Yeah, and I was poked and prodded in all sorts of ways. Well, it took months, you know, because there were, as you say, there were a lot of injuries

and the recovery of some of them was recovered faster than others. You know, the liver has an amazing capacity to regenerate, so that regenerated. But the hardest thing, actually, apart from things healing, was just to regain my physical strength because I was very weak for a very long time. Did you or were you allowed to look at your injuries and how aware were you of how badly hurt you'd been? were you of how badly hurt you'd been? Well, initially I didn't because my wife, Eliza, decided wisely that I should not be allowed to look in a mirror because she thought that if I saw the scale of the injuries, it would actually depress me and reduce my ability to fight back.

And so I didn't actually see what I looked like for several weeks by when I looked a bit better and later on because she had been taking photographs and making videos as we'd agreed she should do when she finally said to me are you ready to see the early images and I said yes I was actually quite shocked by how terrible I'd looked and she I realized that she had been absolutely right to keep me away from that information. It would have been horrifying. What has she said to you about what it was like for her? I mean, I'm thinking particularly of that dash to your side.

Yeah, it was obviously, you know, horrible for her too, because somebody called her. She doesn't now remember whether it was somebody from the hospital or somebody from the Chautauqua Institution. Somebody called her and said, you better get up here quickly because he's not going to make it. And so all the time that she was traveling, she had that sentence in her ears that she was going to see her husband who might well be dead by the time she arrived. And I mean, it took an amazing act of strength on her part to then suppress all that emotion of her own in order to be there for me.

Would you call yourself, in all honesty, a good patient? I think I was pretty good to begin with. And then by the time I'd been in hospital for six weeks, I think I got a bit impatient and wanted to leave. I wanted to leave a little bit before they wanted to let me out. And in the end, I realized that they were right and I was wrong. And so I became a good patient again. How often now do you think back to what happened? Do you dream about it, for example? I did. I did for a while. But it's, it's receded now. I wouldn't say I never think

about it. But it's but it's no longer right at the front of my mind. I think writing the book, in a way dealt with it. For me, it felt like, OK, I've thought it through and this is what I want to say about it. And I hope people find it touching and affecting. And I also thought, you know, many people have calamity or tragedy in their lives and maybe they can connect my experience to their own. And if so, that would be a good thing. It might be helpful to one or two people. There's a part of the book in which you have an imagined conversation with your attacker. Why did you want to include that?

Because I felt he was, other than my wife Eliza and myself, he was the third person in the story. And I wanted to try and get a kind of fix on him, you know, because what we know about him is very slight and doesn't seem to add up to enough and find a convincing character there who, at least in my opinion, was convincing enough that I would believe that he would be willing to do something like this. You do say that to be attacked by a knife is a peculiarly intimate form of brutal attack, isn't it? It sounds absurd, but it's not like being shot. No, guns can injure you from far away. A knife attack is right up close and in your face, as it was, you know, and he was right up against me. And then when I fell down, he was

actually on top of me. You can't get much more intimate than that. And, you know, I mean, even though 27 seconds at first sounds like not very long time, if you think about it, 27 seconds when somebody has a knife and is attacking you is a really long time. And so we had that kind of long moment of a sort of lethal intimacy. And that was another reason I wanted to get to grips with him. I wanted to try and, well, I wanted to think about him and then I thought, okay, once I've done that, I don't have to think about him again. He hasn't stood trial yet, has he?

No, I mean, the date, I don't have a firm date yet, but I believe it's coming up in the autumn at some point, September, October, I'm not sure exactly when. And I appreciate you perhaps don't want to anticipate that, but will that be exceptionally difficult? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think, you know, I, in a way, I can't really draw a line under this event until the trial has happened. Until he's, let's say, until he's been sentenced. And I believe, I mean, I've had a conversation or two with the district attorney, the local district attorney,

who does want me to testify. And so if that is the case and if I'm needed, I will go and do it. Yeah. Bearing in mind not just this dreadful attack and the suffering you've been through, and Eliza and the rest of your close family as well and the years before when it must have been if not at the forefront of your mind then definitely on your mind to what degree do you regret writing the satanic verses not in the slightest not in the slightest i mean i think uh i think it's one of the better books i've written

and um and you know there are a lot of people around the world i mean it's one of the better books I've written. And, you know, there are a lot of people around the world. I mean, it's published in more than 40 languages. There's a lot of people around the world who really like it, I mean, who even love it. And I don't see why their opinion is less important than the opinion of people who attacked it with mostly without reading it. No, I'm very, I'm proud of all my books and including that one. it. No, I'm very, I'm proud of all my books and including that one. But you were attacked in such a vicious way with a knife. I mean, we could say that the words are your weapons. But there must have been times when you just felt they were not enough, or don't you feel that way? Well, I felt that way to begin with, yes. I mean, I think, you know, the attack was in August of 2022. And really, it was about February, six months later, before I could even think about words. They just felt inadequate. And then I thought, I guess I just pulled myself together a little bit and thought, this is the tool you have, so use it to respond. And that's what I did. I know I have read that you say if Donald Trump is re-elected, you would consider coming back to the UK to live. Is that the case? Oh, I think I spoke too rashly, really. I mean, I'd love coming to London to see family and friends. And by the way, they really like coming to New York to be here.

So I'm not sure that I need to flee. Also, New York is not Trump country. You know, even when he was president before, New York still felt like New York. And I mean, he got almost no votes here. And I expect that to happen again. So there are parts of America that are Trump country in which are less likable to visit. But New York City is just fine, I think. And what would you say to those people, Jewish people, for example, in London right now who say

that they don't feel entirely safe going into the centre of London at the weekend because of the pro-Palestinian marches? And I'm not critic of the pro-Palestinian marches. And I'm not criticising the pro-Palestinian marches. I'm just saying that it's rather a tough time to be, in quotes, visibly Jewish in London at the moment. What are your thoughts on that? The world is insane right now. People are very, very angry

and seem to have no way of talking to each other. And that's sad. I mean, truthfully, I'm a little bit out of the loop of what's happening in London because I haven't been there for a while. But I can well understand the nervousness that people feel. But you stick to your belief that whoever you are, whatever you are, you should be entirely free to write and say what you think? Yeah, I mean, of course, because the alternative to that is that nothing can be said. You know, if something that offends somebody can be, you know, prescribed because it does that, well, everything offends somebody, you know. And so if that's the rule, then nothing can be said at all.

So it's better, I think, as the saying goes, let a thousand voices speak. And I mean, the defense of free speech has always included the defense of people you don't agree with, because otherwise, it's not the defense of free speech. And therefore, quite often, the defense of free speech is a little ugly because you have to defend people who are saying things that you really despise.

But in order to create the arena in which free expression exists, you have to defend that as well as the stuff that you like. And you have done that. You have spoken out in support of people whose views you find difficult. Yeah, I mean, of course. All the time, you know, people write books or make videos that I find them reprehensible. But to say that they should be banned is a step too far in my view. I mean, there was once, you know, soon after the attack on the Satanic Verses began, there was a Pakistani film in which I was the villain and the heroes were the people trying to murder me. And I defend, that film was refused, initially refused a certificate in the UK. And I defended it against the ban.

And as a result of my intervention, the film was given a certificate in the UK and I defended it against the ban. And as a result of my intervention, the film was given a certificate and fortunately did really badly. So you had the last laugh there. But that must really disturb your critics. When you're prepared to do that, to stand up and do that, where do they go from there?

Well, they should think about their own positions. It's very easy to abuse somebody. The defense of free expression is a tough thing to do. And it does involve defending people that you dislike. So we all have to do that if we're in that game. Can I just ask finally, to what degree you've been changed by the attack? Has it made you, I don't know, harder to live with, easier to live with, more humble?

What would you say? Oh, I think I'm really a piece of cake to live with. But there's two differences, I think, seriously. One is that I'm not as strong physically as I used to be. My physical strength has not come back 100%. I don't know if it gradually will. And the other is, I think, when you have a really close encounter with death, when you get a really good look at it, it never entirely goes away. It's always, so to speak, there's always a shadow in your thoughts, in your mind. And I think that's what happened to me. I think I now have a closer acquaintance with the end, which will come to us all, but we don't usually, I think, spend our lives thinking about it. Well, I do. our lives thinking about it. Well, I do. That is Salman Rushdie talking about his book, Knife Meditations After an Attempted Murder, and just acknowledging there, Fee, that obviously after that incident, he not surprisingly at all does find himself thinking a lot more about death and mortality. And it's not remotely surprising surprising is it no no i don't know how and i was particularly struck by his agonizing over whether he was then 75 at the time of the

attack whether he could have or should have fought back but none of you can't no i mean it was a 27 second as he said frenzied attack and people did come his aid, but none of us know how we'd react and how quickly we'd react in those circumstances. So the book is really, I mean, I must admit, I'm not an expert on his novels at all. But this is well worth reading if you want to know something about just the obvious and horrendous impact of an incident like that on anybody. So it's out now, and it's called quite simply Knife. Just to warn you as well, if you'd like to join in our book club conversation,

then we will be talking about A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi and we'll be doing that next week. So get a crack on with that. And we're talking to him as well, aren't we? We are. Yeah. And I have to say so far,

we haven't had a single email saying anything other than wonderful things about that book. I think it is an extraordinary one, so all hail to the people who recommended it to us. So join us for that, and if you want to drop us your thoughts, it's janeandfee

at timestopradio. Thank you very much indeed. Now you can put your clothes back on. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house

or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.

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